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School shooting was nominated as a good article, but it did not meet the good article criteria at the time (January 27, 2008). There are suggestions below for improving the article. If you can improve it, please do; it may then be renominated.

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Archive of past discussios

Numbering the Victims

If you look at the Virginia Tech Massacre at two different places, you would notice that one had 32 victims and one 33. I would imagine that one included the shooter, and one did not. We need to standardize this by mentioning whether or not the count includes the shooter. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.113.159.19 (talk) 22:53, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

Agreed. Someone should fix it. -122.52.26.169 (talk) 09:24, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

Also, the number for the Austin Tower shooting has two different numbers (18 and then 15) + it seems kind of repetitive to say the number of the victims twice in two different tables. Finally, I agree on standardizing if the shooter is included or not. I vote - standardize it to not including the shooter in any of the counts and specifically stating if there are more than one in any case.Neutralityisimportant (talk) 10:01, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

Another one?

They just announced on my local (Boston MA area) news station that there was another shooting in TN. Anyone have more details/hear about this? 24.147.52.110 (talk) 21:08, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

Here is a link to an article about it: http://cbs3.com/topstories/memphis.school.shooting.2.650988.html Novadestin (talk) 04:52, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

Is there a reason Hebrew University cafateria bomb isn't included?

I just noticed that while the Ma'alot massacre and Avivim school bus massacre acts of terrorism in Israel were included here, the Hebrew University cafeteria bombing in 2002 (no article) isn't included. (I thought at first it might be a question of the definition of massacre, but other bombings are also included in the list here.) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Jnothman (talk • contribs) 23:51, 16 April 2007 (UTC).

I would agree with this being added - is there a Misplaced Pages article to link to? Tvoz |talk 00:07, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

I'm pretty sure this is supposed to be about school shootings, not killings in schools in general. The first two you mentioned appeared to be school shootings. However the Hebrew University one sounds more like a school bombing to me Nil Einne 20:01, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

Until the article was moved yesterday, the two were included under "School massacres". That name is more POV, but also is not as limiting. What is inherently different between bombing of school students and shooting them? A more relevant distinction would be to remove all three of these attacks which were political unlike the numerous US examples. jnothman 23:19, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

The Avivim school bus attack and Ma'alot massacre were terror attacks committed by Palestinian terrorist who had no personal connection whatsoever to the Israeli victims or schools. The mention of these attacks is entirely out of place (cf.: "Mass killings at schools like the Beslan school hostage crisis, are usually described as acts of terrorism"). Same goes for said Hebrew University bombing. As an Israeli citizen, I know of no events qualifying as "school shootings" that have occurred in Israel.

I hereby remove this mention from the article.

I am inserting it here for the benefit of anyone who my for some reason want to reinsert them.

• Avivim school bus attacks - Avivim, Israel; May 8, 1970
• Ma'alot massacre - Ma'alot, Israel; May 15, 1974

Sincerely, Jonathan Shafer 03:29, 11 November 2007 (UTC).

The epidemic section should be deleted

It is unreferenced and original research. It is unknown as to what extent media coverage promotes copycats. Sad mouse 00:14, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

removed. Feel free to remove again if it is reinserted: WP:V states you may remove any unsourced unverifiable information, the burden of proof is on the including party to source their claims. ⇒ SWATJester 03:26, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

How on earth can this article exist...

... without a link to gun politics and a discussion of the underlying causes of school killings? If that isn't biased, what is? Kosebamse 10:41, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

Article names

Who decided on the "massacre" heading usually they're referred to as shootings in th media aren't they? Aaron Bowen 13:55, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

They are called school shootings; it was probably some emo who felt it needed to bleed more. I don't know how to move it back, but there was no vote to move it, so it should be moved back to school shooting, then discussed. Titanium Dragon 14:36, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

Someone yet again moved the page; I moved it back. Titanium Dragon 19:18, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

Please date the notable massacres

In that section only about half of the school massacres are given exact dates; the others just have years. Either give date them all or don't... having it half-and-half is trying. --Marshmello 19:31, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

Infamous School Shooters

Is this section in any particular order? It doesn't seem to be chronological or alphabetical. --MosheA 20:46, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

I don't think its clear that Cho should be added; its not clear he's infamous yet. Titanium Dragon 21:15, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

By now he is. ⇒ SWATJester 03:27, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

I disagree; media sensationalism doesn't make you famous. People remember Klebold and Harris, but I doubt many people could name more than three shooters from the 1990s - Klebold, Harris, and maybe one local shooter (I remember Kip Kinkel who shot up Thurston High School). Titanium Dragon 05:43, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

Notable school shootings/infamous school shooters

Should these sections even exist? List of school shootings was split off, and it seems like they're rather redundant with the list. Really, there've only been a few "major" ones - the clocktower sniper of Texas in 1966 and Columbine. The rest have been forgotten, such as the disaster of 1927, or overshadowed, such as the school shooting in Springfield. It doesn't seem like there's any clear way of differentiating. Titanium Dragon 21:19, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

"Note: Other countries have more school shooting per capita than the US, however, crime statistics are official secrets in some countries and de facto secret in many others, and not centrally available in still others."

If there is no citation for this in the next few weeks, I propose it gets deleted because apparently there is no way of knowing, and it seems that the information is irrelevant and just trying to make an excuse for the high number of known US school shootings. Besides, the overuse of "de facto" is annoying (repetitious) and should be changed if the entire phrase is not deleted altogether.Neutralityisimportant (talk) 07:24, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

POLL

This article has been called school massacre for years until someone moved it yesterday.

Vote for School massacre

• School massacre - this is the original and correct name for the article. EnviroGranny 22:28, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
• School massacre - at least until it is clear that the article contains only shootings. At the moment, it does not. Yes, the Bath School massacre included shootings, but it also featured bombings, etc. First a clear reason for distinction would need to be made. jnothman 23:17, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

Vote for School schooting

1. Sorry, didn't realize there was a poll and moved it boldly. I can self revert upon request, or anyone can just move it back without prejudice pending the poll outcome. --Uncle Ed 15:14, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
2. School Shooting, though see below. Titanium Dragon 19:32, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
3. Massacre is an emotional and subjective description reserved for large scale tragedies and media hacks. --ElKevbo 20:39, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
4. School shooting (2nd word lower case). There are vastly more school shootings involving a small number of victims than those with so many victims as to warrant the term "massacre." I.e., shooting-related school massacres are a subset of school shootings, which is a more inclusive term (albeit it doesn't include other, non-shooting related school violence resulting in deaths). --Yksin 07:05, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

Addendum. Besides, the Bath School disaster falls neatly within Category:School killings in the United States, of which Category:School shootings in the US perpetrated by students is a subcategory. Nothing lost, really. --Yksin 07:13, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

Comments

A quick googling returns 759,000 hits for “school shooting” and a meager 170,000 hits for “school massacre”. School massacre gives 2,330,000 hits, school shooting 7,990,000 hits. Shooting isn’t perfectly accurate (everyone’s favorite 1927 bombing is excluded) but school shooting is a massively more popular term; the media uses it a lot more often. It may be called a school massacre overseas, but I have to say I’ve never heard it called that in the US; everyone calls them school shootings. Also, it is hard to call killing a single student a massacre, as this article seems wont to do - even the most generous definitions of massacre don't refer to a single homicide as a massacre. School killings is a much more precise term, but it is a tenth as popular as the others as a phrase, though killings and school are often used together. Titanium Dragon 22:57, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

• I really don't have an opinion as far as massacre or shooting but in the mean time having the Bath school disaster (which did not involve any shooting) listed in the intro seems bizarre. The perpetrator in the Bath disaster bludgeoned his wife to death and then killed all the other people and himself with explosives. I'm going to remove it (and paste it here for easy retrieval) until a final title is decided on. Natalie 15:09, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
  • The sentence removed :"In the Bath School disaster, the perpetrator was a member of the school board." If the title is changed back to school massacre I can put it back in. Natalie 15:10, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

I don't see any good reason to remove it; despite not being an actual shooting, it would pretty much be lumped in with the rest because it was quite similar. He just didn't use a gun. Titanium Dragon 19:31, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

If a gun wasn't used then it wasn't a shooting. Hence it doesn't belong in the (currently-named) "School shooting" article. --ElKevbo 20:38, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

Words mean things. We can't go around changing definitions so we can more neatly categorize something. Natalie 21:49, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

I don't think either term fits. School Massacre implies a massacre and School Shooting implies a shooting. Yet several accounts of school violence involve stabbings, bombings, less then 2 people dying or being hurt, no one being hurt, suicides, etc etc etc. Yet School Violence is way to broad a topic. I think that the popularity of a term should not decided the title as the meaning itself does not change. We need to find something that actually works regardless of what is popular or trendy. So I would vote that neither be used and something more like School Attacks be used.Novadestin (talk) 04:47, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

Motivation

The works of Alice Miller and Gavin de Becker might shed some light on motivation and prediction. --Uncle Ed 15:15, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

Suicide school shootings?

Would anybody know the number of school shooting ending via the shooter killing himself? I only know three (Red Lake, Colombine & Virginia). I just think that its like something the person probaly does in the end for one reason or another. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Angelofdeath275 (talk • contribs) 01:24, 25 April 2007 (UTC).

I don't really see why this is important but I can tell you its more then three. I have a list of all school attacks with detailed info on it but I really don't have time to go and figure this out sorry. Novadestin (talk) 04:41, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

Southwood Middle School tragedy

From what I can tell, the Southwood Middle School tragedy isn't actually a shooting but a stabbing, even though it's in the "well known shootings" list. I'm tempted to change it, but I would like to know if there's any reason to keep it there on this page. 12.179.243.131 07:28, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

Well-known shooters: Brenda Ann Spencer?

I added Brenda Ann Spencer to the list of well-known shooters - I figure this is fitting enough, considering a song was actually written about the school shooting in Cleveland, in which she took place. Any comments? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Lasse Havelund (talk • contribs) 17:09, 6 May 2007 (UTC).

Should we put the well known shooter list in alphabetical order?

I think we should put them in alphabetical order because the list now seems to suggest that the Columbine shooters is the most well known of all the shooters. I am going to change it, but at the same time, feel free to discuss as it is merely my thought. Thanks. Chris 01:28, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

Proposed merge in of 2006 School shooting outbreak

• Support - there is enough of an overlap that putting these articles together would allow a more complete overview of the subject. TerriersFan 18:02, 2 June 2007 (UTC)

• Support - 2006 School shooting outbreak is just an analysis of a coincidence using original research. User101010 19:13, 2 June 2007 (UTC)

*Do not Support - 2006 School shooting outbreak is a list of school shootings from the year 2006 as this article is an article that describes the reasons behind school shootings. User:rgoodermote 18:30, June 8 2008 (UTC)

• Comment - Actually, it isn't just that since a major part of this article consists of lists. I agree that it could be a good idea to limit the article to the concepts/reasons but in that case we should break out the lists, combine with the 2006 page, and create a list/examples page. TerriersFan 23:01, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

• Changed-Support Upon reading the above comment I do agree upon a merge Rgoodermote 8:56 June 11, 2007 (UTC)

Note that there is now Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/2006 school shooting outbreak which, at the time of writing, looks like it's going to be deleted. If there are any useful refs there it would be good to get them before it's too late... --TreeKittens 03:08, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

Without prejudice they are:

• http://cbs3.com/topstories/local_story_275115123.html
• http://www.cnn.com/SPECIALS/2006/yir/timeline/
• http://copycateffect.blogspot.com/2006/10/whats-behind-school-shootings.html

1. "Montreal might have triggered latest U.S. wave".
2. "Copycat threats on the rise: Quebec police".
3. "Quebec teen arrested over website death threats".
4. CBC news (2006-10-21). "Dawson killer's friend charged with uttering threats". CBC. Retrieved 2006-10-21.
5. Mario Girard (2006-10-21). "Un ami de Kimveer Gill accusé de menaces de mort". La Presse. Retrieved 2006-10-21.

Best regards --TreeKittens 03:15, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

Who is Prof. Jack Candle?

I've searched on every single search page that I could think of, and the only pages that came up were the wiki and pages that directly quoted wiki. I'm feeling HIGHLY doubtful that there is such a man who wrote about the psyche of the school shooter, and I'm tempted to remove the text that says so.

That's mighty suspicious. I've removed the statement for the time being. It can be readded when someone can find a cite for it. Natalie 08:37, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

Mitchell Johnson and Andrew Golden

Mitchell Johnson and Andrew Golden, the pre-teen gunmen in the Jonesboro massacre, should have their articles merged in with the massacre page itself. Their pages are unnecessary to have and don't hold the enough amount of notability to have one. —Preceding unsigned comment added by LeatherEngine (talk • contribs) 22:25, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

Out of date reference

I think the CNN reference in the introduction paragraph is out of date. It should be removed and a replacement sourced if possible. The article (published in 1998) is used to support a claim that "school shootings are infrequent", yet this wiki article goes on to list scores of shootings, most of which have occured since the article was published over the past ten years. I think things have changed since the article was published. 86.135.220.148 (talk) 18:52, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

THIS ARTICLE SUCKED

I have completely re-written and almost perfected this article...it was in such a mess. Hard to believe it was like this but ah-well hope I can perfect it more... LOTRrules (talk) 13:35, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

Good Article review

Per the quick-fail criteria, any GA candidate that has cleanup banners (such as the one in External links) should be failed immediately and does not require an in-depth review. I will say that even without the banner, I would be strongly inclined to fail the article in its present state. The vast majority of its content is comprised of lists of school shootings, perpetrators and related media. There is by comparison almost no real encyclopedic content on the phenomenon, and what there is lacks the necessary verification, for example: the Impact section is woefully short and has not one in-line citation to a reliable source. Many of the references are inadequate in their format, more than just a bare url is required to assess the reliability of sources. It is also telling that the most-used source in the article is the Internet Movie Database. Please address the above concerns before choosing to renominate the article. If you feel this review was in error, you may seek a reassessment. Thank you for your work so far, VanTucky 02:54, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

Gee, thanks for the advice I'll get to work quickly but you must admit the article is a lot better than before LOTRrules (talk) 23:13, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

Time Bias

It would appear that there is a time bias. The number of occurences in the incidents seems to have increased, this may be a misrepresentation of the facts being that not every school shooting in 1966 or 1976 is listed but 2008 events are listed because it is current-recent events they are fresher in our memories. The article makes it look like there is some dramatic increase in school related violence, while if investigated to see all the facts, it is more likely to show that there has been no change in history.--Recoverypsychology (talk) 18:44, 23 February 2008 (UTC)

If you can find suitable support for this I think it would be put into the article. Find your soucres then cite them clearly. LOTRrules (talk) 00:54, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

I can't document this, but years ago I had a friend who did heavy research for a university thesis. He claimed (cocktail party conversation) that if you actually go back and read the local newspaper issues for the last 100 years, many "incidents" simply never made it to the "big city" papers. His (unscientific count) opinion was that PER CAPITA there were just about the same number of murders, suicides, going postal, school shootings/knifings or other acts of violence, etc. But, these statistics have never been accumulated in a modern data base and it takes a LOT of work to figure it out.Aaaronsmith (talk) 03:42, 12 April 2008 (UTC)

Major Edit

Just to tell you I think the Impact section is just too long and irrelavent. I will cut it down but I will have the spare biuts of information used as referances in the near future. It was one of the reasons the article failed a good article nomination. LOTRrules (talk) 00:59, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

Right I'll make a separate page on my userpage as a place for storing these tables (which are irrelavent) - please contact me if you can't find them. LOTRrules (talk) 01:16, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

Final note: I have stored them - anyone who wants them go to User:LOTRrules/Referances - but be warned the use of these tables will result in GA and/or FA status automatic failure so please use these only for referance not by making up huge tables as WP is against extensive list/table formats in just one article... LOTRrules (talk) 01:23, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

school shootings

Most school shootings are started by bullying,fighting,break up etc. This is a big deal in schools. Teachers need to pay attention to what is going on in the class more then they do.

Columbine High School massacre#April 20, 1999: The Massacre

Ashleybla (talk) 20:28, 25 February 2008 (UTC)ashleybla

It's psychological, it's just in the USA. LOTRrules (talk) 17:34, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

According to John Lott, some countries have more school shootings than the US and a lot of countries have more violence.Aaaronsmith (talk) 03:45, 12 April 2008 (UTC)

John Lott is talking through his ####, and anyone who believes the above statement is a fool. --172.159.8.243 (talk) 06:27, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

Expand

I believe this article needs to include more material from around the world. I has much United States material mut not much else. Enlil Ninlil (talk) 07:39, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

Sorting Columns

Nice touch with the little icons to sort table columns - does not work with dates though: alphabetical sort by month? Duh. DoomProofWiki (talk) 11:37, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

School Shootings and America

Has there been any research or information as to why this is so common in America as opposed to other countries around the world. (Assuming it's more than just the 24 hour media circus) 219.131.222.37 (talk) 09:53, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

I miss the term 'Intellectual movement' here somewhere

Gentlemen, gentlemen, let us not deny any facts here for sake of the world's yet hopefully not your own ludicrous aversions to this movement. Still, this movement gains no support in low-intellectual circles, yet profoundly more as one climbs up the intellectual ladder to a culmination of a circa 50/50 support / disapprove ratio amongst my fellow physics students here. As much as this practice is looked down upon, even by the vastly lacking in neutrality article her, one must still acknowledge that it is an intellectual movement. The practice of the more militant intellectuals to rid the world of the profoundly stupid—in fact giving their lives for their cause often. Personally I cannot have but the deepest respect for those who set out to rid this already less-than-adequate planet from the profoundly stupid (read: the bottom ninety-ninte-point-five per cent), that the lower-intellectual who are unable to fathom their own inferiority do not see that this is technically an intellectual movement provides no change to the bare fact that it is ladies, tata. Niarch (talk) 18:25, 17 May 2008 (UTC)

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