Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 19:18, 18 August 2005

• Archive: Talk:Elvis_Presley/archive1
• Archive: Talk:Elvis_Presley/archive2

Following the advice of User:DropDeadGorgias, I will reinsert what I already posted here and following the work of User:Wyss prior to the discussion on the First disputed item, I have archieved the too lengthy and now redundant edits. See Talk:Elvis_Presley/archive2.

Second disputed item

THE ARTICLE FURTHER STATED:

• "Decades after his death, two published sources claimed that Presley was involved in a homosexual relationship with actor Nick Adams. In Elvis: The Hollywood Years (2002), author David Bret stated that Presley was gay."

- AND –

• "Colonel Tom Parker "held secret information about a homosexual affair between Elvis and actor Nick Adams over his head like a sword. ...that is why Parker had so much control over him."

RESPONSE:

First, the book was published in 2001. One of the "two published sources" is Dee Presley as dealt with in the First disputed item above. Anyone coming to Misplaced Pages can insert anything they want into a Misplaced Pages article but must be prepared to establish the academic/journalistic integrity of the source (as previously enunciated on this page by User:DropDeadGorgias) if called upon to do so. User:Onefortyone aka ANON 80.141. etc. has never done that, instead he repeatedly reverted others who questioned him and reversed things by demanding whoever disagreed with him to prove his edit wrong.

Note that The Guardian newspaper opens their comments on Gavin Lambert's book on Natalie Wood by reminding readers it is high-class gossip. Newspapers do review gossip books, but no Encyclopedia ever references them. Book reviewers also give warnings about gossip and point out in an example such as this, that the subjects of the book: conveniently for legal purposes, are deceased. Such is the case with Bret's writing in that Elvis Presley, Nick Adams, and Colonel Tom Parker are all dead.

You will note that in this Presley article and the Nick Adams article that when I added important content, I referenced the author such as Alanna Nash, Peter Guralnick and Elaine Dundy. And, for each of these I either created their biography at Misplaced Pages or added to their existing bio, inserting academic credentials and external links so that anyone could easily satisfy themselves as to their academic/journalistic integrity. For quotes by both Elaine Dundy and Priscilla Presley, I did an article on their book using direct quotes and/or page number references.

I have prepared considerable facts on the Bret book issue to insert at anytime. However, a Misplaced Pages policy consensus has already been established on Talk:Abraham Lincoln # Lincoln's sexuality for dealing with similar such issues as Abraham Lincoln's Sexuality. For the David Bret writings about Presley that User:Onefortyone/ANON 80.141 wants included in Misplaced Pages, if he or any other Wiki contributor produces David Bret's academic credentials, the specific information on exactly what his book alludes to, proper peer reviews for the book, and then can show that this matter has received sufficient press that historians or qualified biographers and major publications such as Time magazine have addressed the issue, then they can place a similar reference in the Presley article and set up a smilar page for the Bret book as was done for the C. A. Tripp book, The Intimate World of Abraham Lincoln.

- Ted Wilkes 23:14, August 17, 2005 (UTC)

I'm happy to see someone else asserting that peer review is not only possible, but plainly, a needed characteristic of sources cited on a disputed topic, even when it involves a celebrity. I endorse Ted Wilkes second disputed item too. Although published for the tabloid market, there is zero documented historical support for Bret's specific claims/speculation relating to the sexuality of Elvis Presley. Wyss 13:21, 18 August 2005 (UTC)

Actually, we have yet to see evidence as to what Bret said. We do not know if he made a claim or only alludes to it or what. At Amazon.com in the United Kingdom the Synopsis provided to Amazon UK by the UK publisher's small imprint which does not mentional homosexualty and states:

• "The truth regarding the relationship between Colonel Tom Parker and Elvis is exposed and the controversial allegations that Presley slept with his own mother, raped his wife, held wild sex and drugs parties and left a fan brain-damaged are explored."

At Amazon.com in the United States the Publisher offered nothing as to content.

David Bret's academic credentials are unknown and there is no record that his Presley book has ever been subjected to a Peer review. Kirkus Reviews and the Library Journal have never reviewed any of his books. Publishers Weekly did two or three but after repeated bad reviews they stopped several years ago. An April 4, 2002 article by writer/editor Jennifer Mendelsohn posted at the Washington Post – Newsweek Interactive Co. LLC making fun of Bret's book in a reference to a writeup about the book in The Globe (tabloid).

User:Onefortyone aka ANON 80.141. etc., who inserted the above text, also substantially modified the Misplaced Pages article on David Bret to remove damaging facts and changed the credential label by inserting the fabrication that David Bret was "one of Britain’s leading show business biographers." When taken to task, User:Onefortyone aka ANON 80.141. etc. changed it by deleting the word "leading."

User:Onefortyone aka ANON 80.141. etc. names this one gossip book by David Bret but without a direct quote and page number to reference to. At Amazon.com in the United Kingdom the Synopsis provided to Amazon UK by the UK publisher's small imprint which does not mentional homosexualty and states:

• "The truth regarding the relationship between Colonel Tom Parker and Elvis is exposed and the controversial allegations that Presley slept with his own mother, raped his wife, held wild sex and drugs parties and left a fan brain-damaged are explored."

At Amazon.com in the United States, the publisher provided no Synopsis information of any kind and again there is no Peer review. The book was sold on the Internet and not listed by the publisher with leading distributor Baker & Taylor (The #1 book supplier to libraries, B&T distributes books etc. to about 8,000 school, public, and specialty libraries around the world.) and not with Ingram Book Group (the world's largest wholesale distributor of book product). There was no national distribution and as such was not carried in any bookstores or libraries. Any bookstore wanting it has to obtain copies direct from the publisher.

THE ARTICLE FURTHER STATED:

• "Colonel Tom Parker "held secret information about a homosexual affair between Elvis and actor Nick Adams over his head like a sword. ...that is why Parker had so much control over him."

• RESPONSE: Bret's writings on Presley are allusions and are not part of "widely circulating stories" by reputable sources other than Internet clones of Misplaced Pages. No other book is known to exist that makes any such similar allusions, claims, or allegations – nothing. And no entertainer in history has had more books written about them than Elvis Presley and no other entertainer has had every aspect of their life documented in such infinite detail as Presley via all forms of media. In the Misplaced Pages article are details of Presley's girlfriends and wife and it contains documented statements both in books and in television interviews confirming that Elvis Presley was a womanizer. His most respected biographer, Peter Guralnick, whose education and writing credentials are documented at Misplaced Pages, published two books with more than 1,300 pages on Presley's life. His books received numerous peer reviews and as Amazon.com said:

• "Guralnick's exploration of Elvis's childhood and rise to fame was notable for its factual rigorousness" and
• Publishers Weekly called it: "Guralnick's definitive and scrupulous biography"
• Publishers Weekly also stated: "Guralnick is the first to explain successfully how the Colonel, a one-time carnival huckster, maintained an enduring hold on a man whose genius was beyond his grasp."

Peter Guralnick's book Last Train to Memphis, and another acclaimed book Elvis and Gladys by Hollywood insider Elaine Dundy, gives much detail on Presley's friendship with Nick Adams . Note too that User:Onefortyone aka ANON 80.141., in his quest to make Elvis gay, quoted gossip writer Gavin Lambert as referring to Nick Adams as gay in his book on Natalie Wood and that she dated a gay Elvis. However, User:Onefortyone aka ANON 80.141. neglected to state the quote was made as offhand gossip without facts and did not mention the following from page 119:

• "Nick Adams, who happened to be in New York that week, had recently managed to ingratiate himself with Elvis Presley. He told Natalie (Wood) that the singer wanted to know if he might ask his favorite actress for a date. "Natalie was all shook up after Presley called and asked her to go out with him when she got back to Los Angeles"

However, the last of Guralnick's two volumes was published in 1999. One might be able to say that further exhuastive research two years later by David Bret revealed new information and therefore Bret's book might merit referring to if it contained any reasonable evidence. But, the Bret book provided no facts, only groundless allusions, and is like the majority of Brets tabloid-style writing, ridiculed for the numerous errors and lack of research. The Elvis article states the Bret book was publshed in 2002, it was not. It was published in 2001 (see the Amazon.com UK website) but more importantly, the offical registry of the United States Library of Congress officially registered it 2001.

In 2003, journalist Alanna Nash, Columbia University Graduate School of Journalism and the Society of Professional Journalists' 1994 National Member of the Year, had her book The Colonel: The Extraordinary Story of Colonel Tom Parker and Elvis Presley published. (Simon & Schuster – ISBN 0743213017). This award-winning and highly acclaimed book was subject to much Peer review. In Great Britain, Mojo music magazine said her book was "the most incisive and comprehensive look at the life of the elusive Colonel available" and the respected newspaper, The (London) Observer, lauded the book as "perhaps the most thoroughly researched music book ever written."

Ms. Nash, had already published a respected but unflattering no-holds-barred book on Presley in 1995 titled Elvis Aaron Presley: Revelations from the Memphis Mafia that provided what Entertainment Weekly called "stunning allegations." In this book and in "perhaps the most thoroughly researched music book ever written," there is no such claim as to homosexualty about Presley or blackmail by Colonel Parker.

These above mentioned two authors credentials and peer reviews of their work can be found everywhere in reputable magazines, newspapers and book review publications. A third author, Albert Goldman is also documented at Misplaced Pages. He is the most reviled by Presley fans for his harsh criticisms of Presley's lifestyle. If their was dirt of any kind to be uncovered, or allegations of homosexuality, it is likely, based on his track record, that Albert Goldman would have been the one to publish it. He did not, but as evidence of his willingness to do so, in his 1988 biography The Lives of John Lennon he claimed that The Beatles John Lennon had a homosexual relationship with Brian Epstein.

The background of David Bret and his education credentials are unknown. What he is, is one of the many calling themselves biographers spawned by the Internet. The poor quality of virtually all of his works, most notably their lack of research and sensationalizing by insinuations and allegations without facts, are well known. Note too, that Misplaced Pages User:Wyss did an analysis of Bret's writings and at Talk:Nick Adams came to the conclusion:

• Bret has a reputation for sloppy history, lack of scholarship, being obsessed with sexual topics (almost to the exclusion of other aspects of his subjects' careers and lives) and lastly, making up interviews to sell tabloid-style books to the downmarket. Wyss 2 July 2005 10:33 (UTC)

• Bret is widely dismissed by critics as inventing material for his tabloid-oriented, downmarket books. Wyss 5 July 2005 15:01 (UTC)

However, as evidenced on both this Talk page (and new archived page) and that of Talk:Nick Adams, User:Onefortyone aka ANON 80.141. etc. has repeatedly inserted fabications and doctored text into the article. On this Talk:Elvis Presley archived page, it was pointed out that journalist Alanna Nash was a Columbia University Graduate School of Journalism and the Society of Professional Journalists' 1994 National Member of the Year and that her 2003 book was published after Bret's book and that there were no such findings of homosexualty about Presley or blackmail by Colonel Parker in her book that was labeled as "perhaps the most thoroughly researched music book ever written."

In response, User:Onefortyone aka ANON 80.141. etc. stated (above on the achived section of this page):

• "It should also be taken into account that most parts of Nash's book were written before Dee Presley published her recent accusations." Ted Wilkes 19:04, August 18, 2005 (UTC) 80.141.178.108

Note that this is another fabrication and in the article these alleged Dee Presley "recent accusations" about homsexualty have no date. The 84-year-old Dee Stanley-Presley, in poor health, has given no public interviews for years. Her three sons have and each has written one or more books on Elvis Presley none of which ever claimed, suggested, or insinuated Elvis Presley was gay but in fact all three talked about Presley's notorious womanizing.

THE ARTICLE FURTHER STATED:

• "According to Bret, journalists' attempts to "out" Elvis in the past were thwarted by his manager"

• This is another demonstration of the reason for Misplaced Pages:Avoid weasel terms and citing sources. This is not a quote from the discredited Bret book, it is only the words of the person who inserted it in the Elvis article. Given the fact that User:Onefortyone aka ANON 80.141. etc. has repeatedly inserted lies here in Misplaced Pages as outlined in detail on this Talk page, and has fraudlently doctored text from another website, Wikipedians need to have the source cited in detail with a direct quote in parenthesis so that it can first be verified then secondly, judged on its merits as to proof provided. What page number, please. What jounalists? Who are they? What proof is there that they tried to "out" Presley. In what publications can we verify these alleged writings and what proofs do they offer to support their claim?

THE ARTICLE FURTHER STATES:

• "Despite such statements that Presley may have been bisexual or gay, most other authors, writing in the vein of the worldwide Elvis industry which has a tendency toward supporting only a 'favorable' view of the singer, describe Elvis as heterosexual.

This is a summary of unfounded information that uses backhanded references solely to support the unfounded claims and fabrications by User:Onefortyone aka ANON 80.141. etc.. This kind of word playing is not acceptable as stated in Misplaced Pages:Avoid weasel terms.

WIKIPEDIA CURRENT USE OF ALLEGATIONS OF HOMOSEXUALITY: A Misplaced Pages precedent has already been established and adopted on the Abraham Lincoln article for allegations as to someone's sexuality. Misplaced Pages:Verifiability is Official Misplaced Pages Policy and must be adhered to. In the Misplaced Pages:Verifiability article it states exactly:

• "One should only write articles which contain information that is verifiable and not original research."
• "For an encyclopedia, sources should be unimpeachable."

For any insinuation in the David Bret book about Presley to be referenced in Misplaced Pages it will require the author's credentials be clearly established and proof of the information being referenced as required of the C. A. Tripp book on the Abraham Lincoln homosexual issue that requires that the question of the person's sexuality has received sufficient press that historians or qualified biographers and major magazines such as Time have addressed the issue.

==============================================

Out of the hundreds of other books written on Elvis Presley and especially those respected authors acclaimed for their meticulous research plus the thousands of articles in reputable magazines and newspapers, not one ever claimed Presley was homosexual. Yet, one person who has repeadtly lied and fabricated external reference quotes has managed to impose his will on Misplaced Pages to have the Presley article devote a full section to it with an inappropriate title and 19 full lines. At the same time, a comment on statistical facts by Billboard magazine's Joel Whitburn, the most respected source for popular music statistics in the United States, is relegated to two lines in a "Trivia" section.

If anyone can show that the David Bret book has received sufficient press that historians or qualified biographers and major magazines such as Time magazine have addressed the issue, they he can place a similar reference in the Presley and Adams articles and set up a smilar page for the Bret book as was done for the C. A. Tripp book, The Intimate World of Abraham Lincoln.

I will also point out, because User:Onefortyone aka ANON 80.141. etc. inserted into the Presley Talk page that the "accusations have been discussed not only in newspaper articles but also by fan groups." This is just one more of the never-ending misleading and meaningless claims made by User:Onefortyone aka ANON 80.141. etc. to cloud the issue and prevent discussion of real facts. Elvis Presley fan groups all contravene Misplaced Pages:No original research and are not usable at Misplaced Pages. This Misplaced Pages Official Policy states: "Remember that it is easy for anybody to create a web site and claim to be an expert in a certain field, or to start an "expert group," "human rights group", church, or other type of association."

These fan groups on the Web compete fiercely for attention and in one case where a site (actually based in Australia) claimed they interviewed (under the appearance of a 2002 date) one of Elvis Presley's closest associates about the "new" Dee Presley book in which it was referred to by title. When asked via an e-mail:

• You show an interview with Joe Esposito in which you refer to a book by Dee Presley called "THE INTIMATE LIFE AND DEATH OF ELVIS. " I cannot find this book anywhere (or an ISBN number reference) and the United States Library of Congress has no listing for this title. Can you tell me something about it?”

Here is the reply for the operator of the site signed as Lea Frydman, Content Manger:

• "I do believe that the book by Dee Presley has since been re-printed under the title Elvis, We Love You Tender. Below is a direct link to Amazon where you buy a copy... Lea "

Hmmm… a 2002 interview about a book that has since been re-printed - in 1980!

NOTE: What has happened here is that User:Onefortyone aka ANON 80.141. etc. one user by himself with a singular agenda has dedicated himself to a few articles all of which lead to his claiming Elvis Preseley being homosexual. This person has caused hundreds of hours of needless debate all because of his unproven and undocumented assertions tied into his outright and repeated fabrications. Those who attempted to correct his false or unsubtatinated claims have been reverted by User:Onefortyone aka ANON 80.141. etc. up to as many as 100 times on the Elvis Presley, Natalie Wood, and Nick Adams articles. He has also drawn User:Wyss and User:Mel Etitis into his heated discussions that led to accusations and counter-accusations and debate that bordered incivility.

Note what User:Wyss said on Talk:Natalie Wood:

• Here, the anon uses the standard tactic of trying to wear me down with repetition of mostly factual but slightly distorted material which has little or no bearing on this short article. His ultimate goal by the way is to support an assertion that Elvis Presley was gay. Wyss 2 July 2005 23:27 (UTC)

(NOTE User:Wyss did eventually become worn down and capitulated to everything User:Onefortyone aka ANON 80.141. etc. demanded.)

That's a misrepresentation. All of 141's edits were followed by scathng disclaimers,or otherwise isolated as being patently suspect, when we were finished. Wyss 19:08, 18 August 2005 (UTC)

User:Onefortyone aka ANON 80.141. etc.]] lies then forces others to disprove his lies. Once you disprove them, it means nothing, the User just creates another lie and ibncreases the complexity and falsehoods of his edits. This was also said on Talk:Natalie Wood# A comment on sources by Misplaced Pages Administrator User Func:

• Yeah, I've just done some edit history searching. The anon is a POV warrior of the first degree, and does not appear to be editing in good faith. func(talk) 3 July 2005 16:09 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:credibility is at stake here. For consciencous editors to be harassed for hour after hour when there is no reason only serves to drive away the very people Misplaced Pages needs most. Tolerating this is not only unacceptable, it gives ammunition to Misplaced Pages’s critics such as Encyclopedia Britannica who told the Washington Post that: "The problem with an effort like that is that at other times, it may reflect just the wisdom -- or lack of wisdom -- of the last contributor." In response, Jimmy Wales told the post : "Misplaced Pages is proposing to implement editorial controls soon that Wales thinks will put it on par with Britannica." That was September 8,2004.

So does the Bret cite even exist? Wyss 19:08, 18 August 2005 (UTC)

It does not seem to. It seems odd to me that the Amazon review talks about the controversial aspects in the book (incest, rape), and does not mention any allegations of homosexuality, which the text here makes sound central to the book. I now support removal of that section. If 141 cares to write up an article for Elvis: The Hollywood Years, and give undisputed citations where actual claims of homosexuality are made, then we can consider referencing it in the article. As it stands, I don't think there is any support for inclusion of the Bret material. --DropDeadGorgias (talk) 19:15, August 18, 2005 (UTC)

Oh, wait, I just found it. The amazon.co.uk has a searchable text version of the book. Allegations of a relationship with Nick Adams are made: . --DropDeadGorgias (talk) 19:18, August 18, 2005 (UTC)