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This article was nominated for deletion on 14 February 2008. The result of the discussion was keep.

Please stay calm and civil while commenting or presenting evidence, and do not make personal attacks. Be patient when approaching solutions to any issues. If consensus is not reached, other solutions exist to draw attention and ensure that more editors mediate or comment on the dispute.

This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Anti-Americanism article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject.

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Medcab

Just throwing in a small question: can someone updated the Medcab request with the latest developments? It hasn't been touched in several weeks, and there's clearly more discussion going on here. On a side note, I don't think this is going to get resolved without some form of higher-up DR. — HelloAnnyong 14:53, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

THere is no update. The article still labels living people with a pejorative propaganda term they don't accept for themselves. It still exists in its current form against consensus, without any interest from Colin and Marksell in reaching consensus. It still violates policies on neutrality, which Marksell just acknowledged above (probably without realizing it). Life.temp (talk) 22:31, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

Newcomers (such as myself) may look at this problem is you indicate by which keyword 'Medcab' shows in the article. Springwalk (talk) 08:22, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

Paul Hollander's unwitting anti-Americanism

I had promised myself that I would walk away from this... mess. (Not really because of any single editor of this article) But still, as I've found some information that might seem relevant, I'll put it here. A NY Times review from 1992, by one Herbert Mitgang, of "an unwittingly anti-American book that is actually intended to be a defense of what the author considers to be the one true patriotic American way: his vision of a squeaky-clean, uncritical acceptance of the government and the country." That was, a book by one Paul Hollander:

Books of The Times; Americans as America's Own Worst Enemy

ΑΩ (talk) 18:34, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

The funniest thing I ever read was a review of Antonioni's film Zabriskie Point in which the reviewer complained that 'it gave Anti-Americanism a bad name'. Personally I believe in the American ideal of free speech and against anti-American censorship of wikipedia articles. Manifest Destiny sucks though IMHO. As for walking away from this article I'm reminded of the closing scene in Jean Paul Sartre's play Huis-Clos in which the the doors of Hell open but the protagonists decide they'd rather stay and finish their argument than get (the hell) out of the joint... Colin4C (talk) 18:53, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

That is kind of funny... "How can I escape from Americanism ?" John-Paul Sartre, Oct 18 1947

There can surely be no exit by way of Anti-Americanism ? ΑΩ (talk) 11:21, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

And I believe in the very ancient ideal of free speech. However, I don't see it as a particularly "American" ideal, or virtue. The birth of democracy, pretty much as we know it - with slaves and all - found place in Athens, Greece, from what I've heard. Free Speech and Democracy in Ancient Athens ΑΩ (talk) 12:44, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

I don't disagree with AQ here. Hollander is considered something of an axe-grinder. At the same time, on the opposing side, so is Chomsky. The current article devotes a good deal of space to Chomsky, so I'm willing to accept a good deal of space to Hollander.

What would be nice is if we had more people like O'Connor and Joffe who, while perhaps of opposing viewpoints, offer something measured, rather than polemical. But, if we are to reflect the body of published opinion, we have to give space to the polemicists. They are the best known. It's one of the difficulties in editing this article. Marskell (talk) 19:21, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

The article devotes quite a bit more space to Hollander than Chomsky. Life.temp (talk) 22:26, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

Just to say that we don't have to agree with the arguments of an axe grinding polemicist or even grant their arguments credibility. As wikipedia editors it is our job to report on notions which are 'out there' not to do original research according to our own ideas of 'right think'. Nor are articles demonstration pieces for idiosyncratic interpretations of wikipedia 'laws'. The wikipedia is an encyclopedia not a post-modern self-referential reflection on how reality matches up to notional wikipedia 'rules'. Colin4C (talk) 19:55, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

As wikipedia editors it is our job to report on notions which are 'out there' not to do original research according to our own ideas of 'right think'.

• Indeed. That's why this article should not go around calling things anti-American (or not). It shold merely report the fact that the opinion exists, and give equal weight to reliable, opposing views.
• Our other job as editors is to reach consensus, which is why you and Marksell should not be going around refusing mediation, attacking other editors including Third Opinion editors, and responding to every concern with sarcasm and distortion. Life.temp (talk) 01:41, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

• Please discuss the issues not personalities.
• On your main point if a term is used in pejorative sense that doesn't mean that what it refers to in an ordinary descriptive sense does not exist. When Senator McCarthy falsely and perjoratively accused liberals of being communist spies that false description did not mean that there were no communist spies in reality. Similarly if a liberal was falsely and perjoratively accused by McCarthy of being 'anti-American' or 'un-American' and was brought before the HUAC commitee that does not mean that there is no such thing as 'anti-Americanism'. For instance Hitler was explicitly anti-American and so is Osama Bin Laden. Laden declared war on the USA in 1998, told assembled journalists that Americans civilians were fair targets and demonstrated his beliefs on 9/11. As long as we give standard academic citations then this is an encyclopediac topic. We are making reference to what academics and others say is anti-American, not making an original research judgement for ourselves. We are merely wikipedia editors not pundits or philosophers. We are also free to provide contradictory citations. If author A says 'X is anti-American' we are at perfect liberty to give a citation from author B disputing what author A has said on the opinions of X. What we shouldn't do is intrude our personal opinions as to the validity of the notion and reality of anti-Americanism into the text of the article. Colin4C (talk) 09:30, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

I didn't say anything about personalities. I didn't say anything about what exists. I didn't say this isn't an encyclopedic topic. I didn't say we shouldn't give "contradictory citations." I didn't say anything about "the validity of the notion and reality of anti-Americanism." Again, you are responding with sarcasm and distortion. Our job as editors is to work towards consensus. Do it.Life.temp (talk) 11:47, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

You said above that this article "labels living people with a pejorative propaganda term they don't accept for themselves". Au contraire Bin Laden at a press conference in 1998 called Americans 'thieves' and said that killing American civilians was permissable. He then declared war on America. In front of the media. It was recorded on film and in print. In your somewhat bizarre terms Osama presumably 'accepts for himself' that he is anti-American but inner acceptence of whatever is not the issue on the wikipedia. 'Inner acceptance' is not verifiable on the wikipedia or any other encyclopedia and is not a condition for inclusion of material in wikipedia articles. All we have to go on in wikipedia is what is reported of people in print or on film. Anything else is either anecdotal, original research or imagination. Both explicit anti-Americanism of the Bin Laden variety or alleged anti-Americanism of the McCarthyite accusation type can be sourced with citations. Reports of what Bin Laden or Hollander etc etc said can be sourced. If there are conflicting reports these can be sourced also. If Y disagrees with X that Bin Laden or whoever is anti-American we are perfectly at liberty to report it in this article. If an author reports that the notion of anti-Americanism is being wrongly used we can report that in the article. Anti-Americanism is a live topic of debate and research with scores of books and articles written on it. Our opinions as to the validity of notions or realities in the outside world is not important. Our job is to report them in a balanced way. Colin4C (talk) 16:34, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

I didn't say anything about "inner acceptance." I didn't say things couldn't be sourced. I didn't say anti-Americanism isn't a topic of debate. Read. Life.temp (talk) 22:24, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

You said 'accept for themselves' and left it ambiguous what method we are to use to elucidate what people 'accept for themselves'. A signed affidavit in front of a lawyer that they are anti-American? Anyway this is all academic because inclusion of material on people, animals and objects in the wikipedia is not dependent on what they 'accept for themselves'. Colin4C (talk) 08:08, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

I didn't say all material depends on self-identification. You've been given the link to the Misplaced Pages guideline on self-identification several times. You've been given wiki-links on neutrality several times. Again, you're making sarcastic strawman arguments. Life.temp (talk) 09:38, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

We are not talking about wikipedia policies or supposed wikipedia policies but about your statement that this article "labels living people with a pejorative propaganda term they don't accept for themselves". That is not true. As I have stated in the article - with citations - there are people such as Bin Laden who are avowed anti-Americans, taking both their recorded sayings - eg declaring war on America in 1998 - and their actions - eg 9/11. It is of course possible that all the reporters and academics and professors are biased in what they record about Bin Laden and have forged all the material we have about him - but you could say that about any subject in the universe. Maybe everything we believe is untrue - implanted in our brains by Evil Aliens. That, however, is not the wikipedia criterion. We can only record anything about anything in the universe in the wikipedia through citations of what one person says about another person or thing. There is no other way. Direct access to the truth is not possible and not permissable on the wikipedia. So if you think a sentence or a paragraph is POV provide a counter argument and a counter source don't just delete it. If we mass deleted all and everything we suspected was POV on the wikipedia we would end up with no encyclopedia at all. Be constructive in your edits. Colin4C (talk) 19:45, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

First, Colin, I have removed Australia again. We have four broad regions, logically chosen—we need to justify why one specific country deserves its own section on top of these. The only specific country that I'd suggest might deserve a section is France (and perhaps Iran).

On the larger points, I think it's stupid to continue talking to Life.temp. It's just tortured logic supporting tortured logic. He wants to delete everything (both as Bscharvy and with his present login) and it's obvious he'll continue to argue ad nauseum. FWIW, I audited for individuals that the article might be representing as anti-American and came up with ten: Cornelius de Pauw, Abbé Raynal, Heidegger, Oswald Spengler, Dr. Johnson (added by myself years ago), Luis Araquistáin, Thierry Meyssan (not explicitly mentioned), Sayyid Qutb, bin Laden, and Hugo Chávez. (Possible I missed a couple.) With each, the individual's own words are allowed to speak for themselves and, while the ref formatting is a mess, references are ultimately provided. I see no issue. We should clean the place up, to be sure, but there's no violation of our main sourcing policies. Almost all of them are dead, so the only policy that Life.temp's argument resembles (BLP) doesn't apply. Marskell (talk) 20:29, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

I am talking about policies. If you are not, we're not talking about the same thing. The article very obviously calls people anti-American who don't call themselves that; the fact that some people call themselves that is irrelevant, since this article doesn't restrict itself to those people. I didn't say all sources are biased, I didn't say anything about "direct access to the truth," I didn't say anything about mass deletion. Marksell, calling it "stupid" to talk to me, and your constant references to a groundless sock-puppet case, are violations of policies on good faith and civility. You also are distorting what I have said. I didn't say we should "delete everything." The people this article labels as anti-American includes all the Japanese who protested the gang-child-rape, all the Britons who expressed a decline in "favorable sentiment" in the Pew polls cited here, all the Middle Easterners who called US policies "unfair" in the polls cited here, etc., since all these cases are presented by this article as facts of anti-americanism. That violates polcies on neutrality and original research, and it violates guidelines on negative comments about living people and labelling people in ways they don't accept for themselves. Life.temp (talk) 11:34, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

How do we know what people 'accept for themselves'? A signed affidavit in front of a lawyer? But what if they lied on oath? Should we then use truth drugs and lie detectors? But this is all academic - as conjecturing what people 'accept for themselves' is not a requirement for material in wikipedia articles. Also 'anti-Americanism' is not seen by all people as negative. There are some people in the world who see it as positive. They may be wicked to think so but we editors are not here to promote our personal POVs on this or any other issue. Colin4C (talk) 11:50, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

And what about religious affiliations? Are we only allowed to print what Moslems, Buddhists and Christians 'accept for themselves' when describing these religions on the wikipedia? No outside views allowable? Colin4C (talk) 17:34, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

The more accurate analogy would be to ask: Are we allowed to assert someone is a Moslem/Buddhist/Christian who doesn't call himself that? And, the answer is no. Life.temp (talk) 02:41, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

The answer is yes. We are allowed to assert that reliable sources have suggested that someone is of a particular affiliation, if the information is notable. Marskell (talk) 11:32, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

The answer to the question I posed is no. The answer to yours is yes. They are different questions. Life.temp (talk) 11:57, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

I really don't see any probem as long as we attribute what is said to sources. We are not asserting that the source is giving us absolute truth but indicating that this is what they state. E.g. 'According to author X Fidel Castro made statement B attacking the Americans'. And if there is a division of opinion on the matter in the sources we are perfectly at liberty to cite the opinions of the alternative source: 'According to author Y Fidel Castro didn't make statement B attacking the Americans' and thus achieve a NPOV. What we should avoid is the infinite regress of questioning author X's credentials and then questioning on what basis those credentials were obtained etc etc. The playground game of shouting 'prove it' to each succesive justification offered is not how academia or the wikipedia works. In the end nothing can be proved as absolutely true apart from the statement 'I think therefore I am' (Descartes). Imaginary counter-factuals are not helpful either. Be constructive. Negativity is just a childish game which should remain in the playground or the philosophy department. Colin4C (talk) 17:17, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

This is exactly what you are doing: "We are not asserting that the source is giving us absolute truth" This article frequently does not say 'According to author X Fidel Castro made statement B attacking the Americans'. Instead, it tends to say "Castro is anti-American " where is somebody saying that. Life.temp (talk) 22:43, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

Like a lot of newbie wikipedia editors you misunderstand the nature of citations on the wikipedia. According to the Harvard system (which is allowable on the wikipedia) a citation in the form of: Bloggs (1982) comprehends all of 'according to Professor Bloggs, a noted Professor of Anti-American studies at the University of Tampa, Florida, who passed the guaranteed 100% NPOV in teaching diploma at the the Institute of NPOV studies at Illinois, writing in a book called 'Anti-Americanism Today' in the Year of Our Lord 1982 (oops that should be C.E.!) etc etc etc'. Giving the reference Bloggs (1982) comprehends all the above. I edited the Theoretical Roman Archaeology Conference proceedings for several years and have had several articles published in hard-copy encyclopedias published by Oxford University Press so I do know what I am talking about when it comes to standard academic procedure with respect to citations! The playground alternative is the system of infinite regress where eg. we would be required to get the CIA to investigate whether Professor Bloggs was not really Fidel Castro's brother in disguise on a mad mission to spread anti-American sentiments in the Deep South. Then of course we would find out that the CIA agents were really double agents working for Hugo Chavez before finding out that etc etc. The wikipedia and normal academic citation system obviates the necessity of such an infinite regress in the process of discovering what is valid in academic terms. Colin4C (talk) 09:13, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

Policy Violations: Perceived Ideological Contradictions

Samuel Johnson hit upon one theme that, in various and different forms, has long defined some forms of anti-American sentiment: the perceived hypocrisy of a supposed freedom-loving people engaged in less than admirable practices. Americans in his eyes were hypocrites in their relations with Indigenous peoples and African slaves.

"How is it that we hear the loudest yelps for liberty among the drivers of negroes?" He famously stated that, "I am willing to love all mankind, except an American."

Violates neutrality and original research policy. It is opinion that this theme "has long defined some forms of anti-American sentiment" and should not be stated as fact. It is OR, because neither Samual Johnson or anyone else is sourced as describing the view as anti-Americanism..

Early 20th century

As European immigration to the United States continued and the country's economic potential became more obvious, anti-American stances grew a much more explicit geopolitical dimension. A new strand of anti-American sentiment started to appear as America entered the competition for influence in the Pacific, and anti-Americanism was widespread among the Central Powers after the U.S. entered the First World War. Furthermore, many of the anti-American ideological threads spread to other areas, such as Japan and Latin America, where Continental philosophy was popular and growing American power was increasingly viewed as a threat. In political terms, even among the allies of the United States, Britain and France, there was resentment at the end of the war as they found themselves massively in debt to the United States. These sentiments became even more widespread during the interbellum and Great Depression and sometimes tended toward the anti-Semitic: the belief that America was ruled by a Jewish conspiracy was common in countries ruled by fascists before and during World War II.

The same problems: unsourced opinion (i.e. original research) stated as fact (pushing a POV).

The fall of the Soviet Union may have brought an increase in anti-Americanism because the U.S. was left as the world's only superpower and people who formerly saw the United States as a bastion against Communism or needed the American security umbrella no longer felt the need to support the United States. Where the governments of allied states in particular had felt disinclined to openly criticize U.S. policy during the Cold War, they have had fewer such qualms since. "By cultivating an anti-American position, Europe feigns membership in a global opposition of the downtrodden by America." In addition, criticism of American economic sanctions and embargoes toward various countries, including Cuba, Sudan, North Korea and Iran, while maintaining commercial relations with countries such as China generates resentment.

Again, opinion stated as fact. The one source is for a brief quote; that source is a personal essay. So, the source doesn't justify stating anything as fact. If there were no other problems, the acceptable format would be along the lines of "According to Andrei Markovits..."

French author Jean-François Revel wrote that "For skeptics of democratic capitalism, the United States is, quite simply, the enemy. For many years, and still today, a principal function of anti-Americanism has been to discredit the nation that stands as the supreme alternative to socialism. More recently, Islamists, anti-modern Greens, and others have taken to pillorying the U.S. for the same reason."

This is just a random quote given its own paragraph, with no connection to the surrounding paragraphs.

The belief that America was ruled by a Jewish conspiracy or that Israel was an American puppet state has also motivated anti-American hatred in some circles during the last third of the 20th century. Other items of concern include American military interventions and imperialism, especially in connection with the 2003 invasion of Iraq, and the perceived selective favor given to allies of the United States in international institutions, especially involving issues like nuclear proliferation . Also the apparent dismissal of international law, i.e. the treatment of detainees, in the War on Terror has intensified criticism .

Again, massive interpretation and original research presented as fact. No source for anything said. The one source given is 1) a personal essay, 2) doesn't support the text. Even if everything were attributed the article would have problems with undue weight.

"Neutral point of view is a core policy of Misplaced Pages, mandatory, non-negotiable, and to be followed in all articles." Life.temp (talk) 22:31, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

Be constructive. All of your edits for the past month have involved massive deletions of valid sourced material. If you continue at this rate there will be nothing left of the article. Is that your aim? To destroy this article or turn into an incoherent stub? Colin4C (talk) 10:00, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

Protected

Since recent activities have mostly been a slowmoving revert war (and various escalating attempts at dispute resolution which so far seem to have done little good), I've protected the article for a week in the hope that we can establish some rules of conduct in order to establish productive editing. This is obviously a controversial and emotional topic, but I would like to offer some thoughts on how editors should behave on these kinds of topics:

• Uncooperative editing is not productive. Do not make an edit that you know will be reverted.
• Instant reverting: Instant reversion without discussion will not be permitted either. If you simply have to revert, please wait until the issue at hand has been fully discussed on this talk page.
• Edit summaries: All edits must be accompanied by precise, informative edit summaries. These must clearly indicate if an edit contains something potentially contentious. In particular, all reverts (complete or partial) must be clearly marked as such.
• Incivility: Especially on controversial subjects, make an extra effort to always be extra polite and civil - otherwise the situation will quickly get out of hand.
• Make changes in small steps. Lets discuss changes paragraph by paragraph, so that separate issues don't become conflated.

What would be your thoughts on this?

PS. You may have noted that I have edited the article, and thus might be considered disqualified from administrative actions. However, I have not protected the article at my "preferred" version (I'm not even sure I have one). henrik•talk 11:01, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

A lot of the dispute here seems to derive from unsubstantiated claims that wikipedia policy demands that massive amounts of this article have to be summarily deleted. Hopefully the admins here can clarify what is and is not wikipedia policy and whether supposed unique insight into the same justifies mass deletions and the slagging off of other editors who hold a different view. My position is that the integrity of thoughtful well sourced articles on the wikipedia such as this one should be respected and that mass deletions are never a good idea. There are far worse articles than this on the wikipedia which don't get the summary deletion treatment. If an article is inadequate there are always constructive ways of improving it I feel. Colin4C (talk) 11:23, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

I just made some edits so as to have material in the history and then self-reverted. I don't know that a week is necessary but will leave it up to the protecting admin.

I would add to the list: attempt to source or rephrase rather than gut sections. This is the crux of the problem. It's incredibly hard to AGF here given the pattern. "This needs better sourcing/phrasing." OK, maybe so. "Therefore I'm cutting five hundred words." Bleh. Regarding Colin's specific queury, Life.temp's mass deletions might be justified if we were dealing with BLP info. But we aren't. This is certainly sloppy in places and does need more sources; but we should work on the material we have.

And we do need to work paragraph by paragraph. I'm willing to do up the Hypocrisy section because it's central to the topic and is underweight at the moment. Could the protection be shortened? Marskell (talk) 11:30, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

I will be happy to shorten the protection, however lets wait for all involved parties to get a chance to talk first. But as soon as we have an agreement here, there's no need for it to stay protected.

I fully agree that the pattern of wholesale deletion followed by reversion needs to stop. There are however quite a few paragraphs which are weakly sourced and that at a first glance could be improved in respect to neutrality, but lets try to work through them slowly instead of gutting them. henrik•talk 11:37, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

The term "gutting" is loaded. It assumes quantity = quality. I don't share the presumption that the encyclopedia can't be improved by shortening this article. Often, taking things out improves a work. Often, shorter is better. The invited Third Opinion editor also suggested a shorter article might be better--Colin threw a fit. This article stands in flagrant violation of core Misplaced Pages policies described as non-negotiable. Let's not negotiate what is non-negotiable. Misplaced Pages should not say what is anti-American and what is not. A statement like "A new strand of anti-American sentiment started to appear..." states an opinion as fact, and does so regardless of whether the opinion is sourced. Nor should the article be a catalog of sourced opinions calling things anti-American, with no mention of the other views. That pushes a POV by giving undue weight to one side. Part of the debate is that the term is often pejorative and propaganda, used to dismiss criticism of US policies by equating it with bias. Yet, 90% of the article proceeds as if the term is not propaganda, and cases of anti-Americanism are, as a matter of fact, cases of bias. A good model for this article is the article on bigotry , which is neutral, sourced, and doesn't go around saying who is a bigot and who isn't. Nor does it list every accusation of bigotry that is significant in some editor's eyes. It is not an "incoherent stub." It is short and to the point. Life.temp (talk) 12:48, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

Well, here we go again. Total refusal to work with the sections we have. As one example of work we might do, Degeneracy thesis can all be sourced to Ceaser, 2003. Henrik, if you unprotect, give me an hour tonight and I'll go over that section. Ditto on Perceived hypocrisy. This is the only way we can work it; once we source the sections better and tidy the language, removing will become a matter of POINT, if not vandalism. Debating wholesale deletions of sections is not getting us anywhere and a week won't solve anything. I'd rather just work on it and ignore the talk page for the timebeing.

(Bigotry is a dict def followed by a long digression on etymology. I'd hardly call it a model.) Marskell (talk) 13:48, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

Indeed, here we go again. You contradicted one of my conclusions (that the bigotry article is a good model), and addressed none of my reasons. Your proposal to Henrik is, essentially, that my concerns be ignored, that protection be removed so you can do the work you want. What a great proposal. Do I get the same privilege? Henrik, if you unprotect, give me an hour tonight and I will fix all the neutrality and original research and undue weight problems with the article. The point has been made, over and over and over, that the problem is not merely to "source the sections better" Stating opinion as fact isn't neutral, regardless of whether the opinion is sourced. Cataloging accusations of anti-Americanism with only the barest mention of dissenting views isn't neutral. Labeling people with a pejorative term that they don't accept for themselves isn't neutral. These concerns aren't addressed merely by transferring a lot opinions from their sources into the article. And, in an amazing coincidence, the opinions being transferred into the article consistently assume that term is meaningful, not propaganda. This, even though the article itself says that notable experts view the term as politically-charged propaganda. Life.temp (talk) 14:48, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

If I source Degeneracy thesis and Perceived ideological contradictions will you cease removing them? Oui ou non? Marskell (talk) 14:50, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

Marskell, if I may suggest, perhaps you can work on a sandbox draft for a day or two for the Degeneracy thesis section?

Let's start by being much tighter about sourcing, and being clearer about attributing subjective views to sources. For example: "Rammstein's 2004 single Amerika was widely perceived as anti-American" is an unsourced statement. Even if it had a source, it would still be problematic. Who exactly perceived it as anti-American? When, where and why did they say that? What kind of bias might they have? (WP:WEASEL). There are other examples of this in the History section, and I suspect this is the basis of Life.temp's complaints. However, I disagree that deletion is a good way to fix it (if nothing else, its not productive as it will only be reverted) - first we should try to rewrite it to fix these problems. henrik•talk 16:38, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

Yes, I can work in the sandbox. A large chunk of the early material in the History section is a paraphrase of Ceaser. But other authors turn up so we need not rely only on him. In the meantime, I'd like some assurance from Life.temp that once material is properly sourced it will not be removed. Marskell (talk) 17:51, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

This is sort of nitpicking, but henrik, can you add some kind of protection template onto the page? — HelloAnnyong 13:09, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

Done. henrik•talk 16:38, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

Re Henrik's statement above:

"For example: "Rammstein's 2004 single Amerika was widely perceived as anti-American" is an unsourced statement. Even if it had a source, it would still be problematic. Who exactly perceived it as anti-American? When, where and why did they say that? What kind of bias might they have?"

We certainly need a source, but beyond that I feel we not go. This is the problem of infinite regress which I stated above. With every citation in the wikipedia you could ask where the author was coming from and then refer the author's position to some other statement which in turn is based on some other statement ad infinitum until we get to some primary faith statement. Nothing in this world (apart from 'I think therefore I am') can be proved to be based on something absolutely true. What we can say with much more definiteness is that "author X asserted such-and-such". This is how academic citations (in my experience of editing and writing academic books) work. It is up to the reader of the wikipedia to give whatever credence to author X that they think is due based on their own philosophy of life. E.g. to some people a statement by George Bush (or Noam Chomsky or whoever) might be seen as a great revelation whilst others would dismiss it with a shrug and raised eyebrows. I feel it is a mistake to second-guess or otherwise dictate to the readers of the wikipedia what they should think. (IMHO inter-alia it would also be anti-American...). Colin4C (talk) 20:05, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

Absolutely, Misplaced Pages primarily strives to be verifiable - not truthful. A wikipedia article should reflect the published opinions of the various experts in a field, crediting each expert for his view and should attempt to give weight to each view proportional to its representation in the expert community. If we can accomplish that, we will have accomplished a neutral, verifiable article with citations that follow academic standards. As you say, the reader can decide how much credence to give to each author of a view provided we clearly attribute it.

However, that is not the main problem with the Rammstein example. It uses passive voice (not in itself a no-no, but overused it can lead to misleading weight). I think the problem in that sentence is boils down to the two words "widely percieved". That sort of vauge statement structure which introduces a proposition without attributing it to a source should really be avoided, and that has really very little to do with infinite regress. We must show by whom and where it was percieved to allow the reader to make up his mind instead of simply argue that many thought it. For example, are there regional variations in the perception? I would think there probably was. henrik•talk 07:56, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

I found this article from the New York Times which states that Ramsteinn's 'Amerika' is of the 'European garden' variety of anti-Americanism. Despite this the American columnist doesn't seem too upset by Ramsteinn's attitude... Maybe we should all here take a leaf out of her book and be really cool about the whole 'pejorative' thing...Colin4C (talk) 11:06, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

That source might merit something like: ""Freelance writer Claire Berlinksi expressed the opinion that one song called Amerika by a German band is anti-American." Why that's notable enough to belong in an encyclopedia is the other part you need to explain. It seems rather remarkable that there is nothing in this article about (alleged) American anti-Americanism. So Rammstein wrote one song considered anti-American (by one source), and that gets into an encyclopedia. How many anti-American songs has Bob Dylan written?Life.temp (talk) 12:53, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

So if we cited Claire Berlinski or any other journalist or writer on say 9/11 would that also be non-notable? And what individual journalists say about events in Iraq is just their personal opinion and not notable? If a single journalist described the Fall of Baghdad would that just be a non-notable personal opinion? All citations on every subject sourced to single authors are ipso facto just the author's personal opinions and non-notable? Is that what you are saying? Or is just when the subject of anti-Americanism comes up that things start becoming non-notable? Colin4C (talk) 14:16, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

No Colin, none of that is what I said or implied. Make an effort. Life.temp (talk) 21:55, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

If freelance journalist Claire Berlinski went to Bogota and saw the American Embassy being sacked as a guy outside burnt the American flag to a funky beat by Rammsteinn would her report that the incident was anti-American just be her non-notable personal opinion? Anti-Americanism is REAL in South America and elsewhere. Nixon barely got out alive on his trip to Bogota in the sixties. If (like Nixon) you get out there into the real world you will realize that anti-Americanism is not imaginary. Neither are the reports of writers on actual existing anti-Americanism imaginary. The wikipedia should deal truthfully with things which happen in the real world and not censor them. Despite what Big Brother said Ignorance is not Strength. I am British, by the way, but do not deny that there are anti-British sentiments out there which have real practical implications in the real world of reality. For instance I wouldn't walk into an IRA bar in Belfast and shout out 'Anyone for tennis?' or 'Mine's a Pimms young sir'. Though it pains me that anyone should the hate the British I do not deny that it exists. Similarly with Anti-Americanism, it may pain US citizens to know that they are not bathed in universal global love but it is a fact with real implications in the real world of reality. Colin4C (talk) 09:40, 17 May 2008 (UTC)

For Anti-English sentiments see Perfidious Albion. Though as an Englishman I personally find this article heartbreaking I am not going to delete any of it (due to my British pluck and inherent sense of fair play and beside everyone knows that God is an Englishman...if you have Him on your side you have no probs...). Colin4C (talk) 10:42, 17 May 2008 (UTC)

I didn't say anti-Americanism isn't real. I didn't say anything is non-notable. I didn't say Misplaced Pages should censor things. I didn't say Misplaced Pages should deal with things untruthfully. I didn't say ignorance is strength. I didn't say US citizens are "bathed in universal global love." You're good at missing the point. Life.temp (talk) 15:21, 17 May 2008 (UTC)

That last sentence of yours isn't very productive and doesn't add anything useful. Lets try to keep the discussion civil and focused on the article. henrik•talk 19:55, 17 May 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for your opinion. I will give mine. Colin has spent well over a month sarcastically distorting everything I say. Either, he excels at missing the point or he has no interest in sincere communication. I think it is productive to inform him of that, and there is nothing uncivil about it. Maybe (I agree it is unlikely) if he is made aware that sarcastic strawman arguments don't contribute anything, he will stop making them. Life.temp (talk) 23:41, 17 May 2008 (UTC)

Framing

I am going to work up some better sourced sections in my sandbox, when I have the time over the next few days. (Having taken a breath, I now think some time under protection might be for the best).

Meanwhile, I'd like to get some second opinions on the frame of the article. There are two basic options: a chronology, or a theme-based page that describes prominent AA sentiments without necessarily paying attention to chronology. Once upon a time, the page had a theme/trend structure, but about 18 months ago an editor tried to shift it to a history/chronology structure. It didn't really work. At present, it's a bad hybrid. The TOC is seriously weird, for instance.

Both frames have their merits. Chronologies have a certain reader appeal and are most easily digested. But focusing on trends would not force us to pigeonhole some idea into a particular time period. To give some idea of what I mean, two very rough possibilities:

• History
  • Eighteenth and early nineteenth centuries
  • Late nineteenth and early twentieth centuries
  • Cold War
  • Post Cold War

Versus:

• Prominent anti-American views
  • Degeneracy thesis and Romantic hostility
  • Perceived hypocrisy
  • Technology, capitalism, and globalization
  • Identity and "Otherness"

Option one is the simplest and cleanest. But option two would probably allow for better explanatory power. (Note my headlines in the second are merely suggestive; we'd obviously need to talk about them.) So I'm of two minds and hope for third opinions. Marskell (talk) 21:16, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

Neither. You are proceeding on the assumption that the term is meaningful, not propaganda. Yet, the article itself says:

• "it has also been suggested that Anti-Americanism cannot be isolated as a consistent phenomenon"
• "the applicability of the term is often disputed"
• "critics sometimes argue the label is a propaganda term that is used to dismiss any censure of the United States as irrational."
• "Noam Chomsky, a prolific critic of U.S. policy, asserts that the use of the term within the U.S. has parallels with methods employed by totalitarian states or military dictatorships"
• "Brendon O'Connor notes that studies of the topic have been "patchy and impressionistic," and often one-sided attacks on anti-Americanism as an irrational position"
• "criticisms of the United States are labeled "anti-American" by supporters of U.S. policies in an ideological bid to discredit their opponents."

As it stands, these concerns are mentioned in the first section, "definitions and usage" and then utterly ignored for the rest of the article. The history and regional attitudes sections proceed as if these concerns do not exist. As such, the article pushes th POV that the term is not propaganda, not merely an ideological pejorative. A better structure would be to choose a few choice examples featuring debate about the applicability of the term, describe both sides, and leave it at that.

The degeneracy thesis section should be eliminated entirely, or moved to its own article. It concerns a time before the United States even existed, so it is outside the definition of anti-Americanism (which is already far too broad). As far as I can tell, one of the few things we all agree on is that the dictionary definition is too broad: why broaden the scope even more? Life.temp (talk) 22:37, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

Life.temp do you think that Osama bin Laden's declaration of war on the USA in 1998 was a 'meaningless notion'? What about 9/11? Was that a 'meaningless notion' also? Is burning an American flag and shouting "Death to America" 'meaningless'? I submit au contraire that these are openly and explicitly anti-American actions for real - in the real word of reality. I also think that the notion of 'anti-Americanism' has a great deal of explanatory power. Vide the situation after the collapse of Soviet Russia everybody thought that South American socialist regimes would also collapse as part of a perceived grand-narrative of Evil Empire Commies losing the Cold War to the The Free World. However, as it happened the South American communist regimes and insurgencies in South America did not wither and die - there were historic anti-American tendencies there going right back to the Alamo, well before the Soviet Experiment and continuing well after. Remember the Alamo? Colin4C (talk) 11:33, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

One thought about the "Degeneracy thesis": From say 1600 to 1800, Europe thought itself superior not just to the Americas but to the entire world. White, christian Europe was thought to be the light of civilization and inherently superior to all other cultures, and the rest of the world was a barbarian place to be used as Europeans saw fit. I would have to agree that labeling it anti-American is a bit misleading because 1) America didn't exist at the time, 2) Europeans thought that way about every place not in Europe. European depictions of Africa at the time are truly horrific. henrik•talk 08:16, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

Perhaps there are other opinions. Marskell (talk) 06:35, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

My initial thoughts is that I like the history division better. It will be simpler and fairly easy to maintain and to comprehend for the readers. The objection that some trends overlaps two or more of the history sections could fairly easily be resolved by introducing them in both. "XXX continued during this time, declining towards the YYYs". Given the problems this article have, I would be inclined to chosing the simplest solution as well. henrik•talk 08:16, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

Last night I preferred themes. Having slept on it, I prefer the history structure. As you say, it will be easier to maintain. Plus, themes/trends invites people to tack on what they like. If done properly, Regional attitudes can be incoporated into the history. Most of it is post-Cold War.

As for the degeneracy thesis, it appears to date from about the 1760s, by which point America and Americans would have been known entities to Europeans. One source I was reading yesterday notes that the theory was not extended to Canada and Mexico. It seems that it was a particularly contra-American phenomenon (especially in France). Marskell (talk) 10:33, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

When I objected to your two proposed frames, I gave reasons. And, I proposed an alternative. If you are going to reject my proposal, it would be polite to give reasons. There would also be more movement toward consensus if you 1) addressed the objections to your approach, 2) explained your objections to someone else's appraoch. Note that explaining your objections doesn't mean being sarcastic. Life.temp (talk) 23:44, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

please add link

When lock is liftyed, please add in the interwiki link fa:آمریکاستیزی to the bottom of the article. Thank You.--Zereshk (talk) 16:28, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

 Done henrik•talk 17:56, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

Chomsky quote

The quote by Noam Chomsky under the "National Identity" section refers to political dissent from within, whereas the two quotes above his, in following the general direction of the article, refer to outside criticism of the U.S. Chomsky's point may be well-made, but it is out of place. Besides, American dissenters are hardly treated in the same manner as their Soviet counterparts were.

The quote should be removed or relocated (perhaps a new section could be created specifically to discuss anti-American sentiment within America). Jdtapaboc (talk) 06:44, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

The section is about definitions and usage, which is also the subject of Chomsky's comment. The Chomsky refers to one aspect of the section topic. It doesn't need to be removed because other paragraphs refer to other aspects. The article does lack neutrality because it pushes the view that anti-Americanism is only found in other countries. Life.temp (talk) 12:39, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

No, the section is about perceptions of American identity and the use of anti-American sentiment as propaganda by non-Americans. The Chomsky quote refers to something altogether different: dissent from within and the labeling of dissenters, by Americans, as anti-American. Again, the Chomsky quote would be appropriate in a section devoted to anti-American sentiment within America, a section which we seem to agree is warranted. Jdtapaboc (talk) 22:25, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

Ah, my mistake. I was looking at the Chomsky reference in a diferent section. Life.temp (talk) 23:37, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

Non-content-related edit request

Please update the {{US topics}} link just before the categories to {{United States topics}}. Sardanaphalus (talk) 00:39, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

Done (it is now unprotected also) henrik•talk 11:23, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

Thanks. Sardanaphalus (talk) 15:20, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

Unprotected

I've unprotected the article. While the issue hasn't been resolved yet, there hasn't been any more discussions for a few days and just waiting won't solve anything. But please don't start another edit war, m'kay? :-)

Lets discuss the issues paragraph by paragraph and get each of them resolved before moving on to the next. Deleting wide swaths will just be reverted, and will probably get the editors doing it blocked for disruption at some point.

Life.temp, I suggest you work on building up the parts of the article that you feel are lacking (I imagine that might cover tendencies to use anti-Americanism as an excuse to ignore criticisms, for example), assuming you can find sources for it. Let the History section be for a little while, if nothing else, as a good-faith building exercise. henrik•talk 08:30, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

I began a paragraph by paragraph approach here . There wasn't any substantive response. My view is that the best way to improve this article is to pare it down, not build it up. I'm not sure why there is such resistance to the idea that less can be more. Improving a work by taking things out is pretty standard in the world of editing. Removing text can improve a work by making it more concise and to-the-point. There is no reason to refrain from deleting the parts of the article that 1) blatantly violate a number of core, mandatory policies, and 2) have been in such violation for weeks, and discussed repeatedly for weeks if not months. On a paragraph by paragraph basis, that means most of the "regional attitudes" and most of the "history" section should be deleted. As a whole, these sections create a NPOV problem by being one-sided. The degeneracy thesis section has little to do with the topic, although it might be valid as a separate article. Deleting this stuff is a classic case of improving an article by making it leaner. Removing the irrelevant, POV-pushing, plagiarized, and unsourced material will improve the article. It also is not my job to fix the problems created by the addition of material. Those defending problematic material have the duty to fix the problem. After the problems have been discussed, explained, and documented over and over and over, the material is deletable at any time.

• Example. The citation of public opinion polls in this article is gross violation of many, many policies. Here's what I said about them over a month ago, when I tried to delete them: "What I deleted: opinion polls that did not describe themselves as polls of anti-Americanism, did not ask their subjects if they described themselves as anti-Americanism, did not ask if people have opposition or hostility to American culture, people, or policy, and in the case of the poll of Middle Easterners, was not even about the US. I also deleted extraneous information about attitudes of Arabs towards Jews and Christians. I made no effort to find other sources because there were no other sources: I specifically deleted cites of these irrelevant polls. Life.temp (talk) 22:08, 11 April 2008 (UTC)" . The deletion was reverted, but no response was made to any of these points. This material can and should be deleted now. It violates core policies, and the issue was flagged in Talk well over a month ago. The other editors have made zero effort to acknowledge and address the violations, so the material can and should be deleted. That would improve the article by removing original research, misrepresentation, and bias.Life.temp (talk) 09:28, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

I have a book on Al Qaida which documents widespead anti-American sentiments in the Middle East and supports the anti-Americanism shown in response to those polls. I will add this material presently. In my opinion the polls document overt anti-Americanism and should not be deleted. Colin4C (talk) 09:38, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

One problem is that it is a hard term to define, and if different editors use different definitions I suspect they'll just talk past each other. It might be interesting if you both could provide your own definitions. What is anti-americanism in two or three sentences? What definition have sources used? henrik•talk 11:23, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

I think the term is fairly self-explanatory. Anti = Against. To be anti-American is to be against America or the Americans or the 'American way' - for whatever reason. I don't see any benefit in tying ourselves up in conceptual knots over a definition and qualifications or worrying whether it is a good or bad or politically correct thing or not to be anti-American. If we approach it in the first instance as a descriptive term used to describe acts and words directed against America we can save ourselves a conceptual headache. Colin4C (talk) 17:30, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

Where would you draw the line between criticism of the US and anti-Americanism? henrik•talk 18:15, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

(O/d) A good definition is the dual one from Guerlain, provided by AQ: "One systematic or essentialist, which is a form of prejudice targeting all Americans. The other refers to the way criticisms of the United States are labeled "anti-American" by supporters of U.S. policies in an ideological bid to discredit their opponents." The thing is, we can't just have Chomsky on the second point. People might go into O'Connor's references to find people who are close to the "propaganda position" and then we can improve that coverage.

On going forward, it's clear that mass deletions are not acceptable and they may indeed lead to disruption blocks. Relatedly, we can work paragraph to paragraph, but we can't redo the entire page in one go—e.g., nobody present six things and say "do it now or else." Present one thing at a time; or, better yet, go to the references (or to Google Scholar or wherever) and improve one thing yourself. I have just added the improved Degeneracy section. Fully sourced, good info. Per above, I'd like to move chronologically. Marskell (talk) 20:46, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

I just added a short paragraph describing the criticism of the (lack of) definition and the confusion that has lead to, as described in the O'Connor paper (p. 89). Please feel free to improve the wording though :) henrik•talk 20:54, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages policy, not Marksell, stipulates what is acceptable or not. It is this: Neutral point of view is a core policy of Misplaced Pages, mandatory, non-negotiable, and to be followed in all articles. On that basis, most of this article is not acceptable. Policy also states that clear violations can be removed at anytime. However, at this point, we are not in a situation of "do it now or else." The situation is that very specific objections have been voiced for weeks going on months, and they have been ignored in favor of personal attacks. Somebody who refuses mediation by calling it "trollery" has no business complaining he hasn't been given chances. I'm certain that if I deleted the text on polls, Marksell would make this same complaint, even though the reasons for the deletion were first given here over a month ago. The new Degeneracy section addresses none of the major objections made to it. Marskell just ploughed ahead with what he wanted, then made a veiled threat about behavior that "may indeed lead to disruption blocks." What we have here is a majority (of 2) that is violating core policies on content, and an encyclopedia that doesn't enforce policies on content. Life.temp (talk) 22:53, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

What we have is a single purpose editor on a crusade. I will continue to try to better source sections as has been done with Degeneracy. Marskell (talk) 07:35, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

Oh well, I voice my complaints and you make personal attacks that assume bad faith and announce an intent to continue ignoring my concerns. What else is new? Why are you going to "continue to try to better source sections" when the primary objection is not merely about a lack of sources? Because you couldn't care less about anyone's objections. Life.temp (talk) 10:37, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

Degeneracy Thesis: Rationale for Deletion

The main problem with this section is that it isn't about the United States. The degeneracy theory is about the physical nature of the New World. It also gives severely undue weight to the theory of two people. The section provides exactly two individuals who suggest calling the degeneracy theories anti-American: James Ceaser and Philippe Roger. One theory, not about anti-Americanism in any modern sense, vaguely interpreted as anti-americanism by two people, doesn't merit a five paragraph section. Here is what Ceaser actually says about this theory:

It can be conceived of as a kind of prehistory of anti-Americanism, since it occurred mostly before the founding of the United States and referred not just to this country but to all of the New World.

The source itself says it is not about the USA and the strongest connection is that "it can be conceived as a kind of pre-history." The section also has the usual misrepresentation, presentation of opinion as fact, lack of sourcing, and bias. It begins with weasel words "According to critics..." by which it really means "two critics." How do we know this interpretation of critics is anything but fringe theory? Using the third source, Sophie Meunier, is misleading because the source she gives in her paper is just Philippe Roger (the Meunir paper itself appears to be an unpublished.)

James Ceaser identifies the Comte de Buffon, a leading French naturalist, as the originator of the theory, but Dutchman Cornelius de Pauw, court philosopher to Frederick II of Prussia became its leading proponent. In 1768, de Pauw described America as "degenerate or monstrous" colonies and argued that, "the weakest European could crush them with ease." The great French writer Voltaire joined Buffon and others in making the argument.

Same problems here. The source for the Voltaire claim is the same quote in the same paper by Meunir--that actually has Roger as its source. We still have exactly two critics backing all of this. (The source is also misrepresented, as it doesn't present Voltaire as saying anything about the New World being "degenerate or monstrous" or that "the weakest European could crush them with ease." It merely says he attempted to use science to show the New World was inferior.)

The theory was extended to argue that the natural environment of the United States would prevent it from ever producing true culture. Paraphrasing de Pauw, the French Encyclopedist Abbé Raynal wrote, "America has not yet produced a good poet, an able mathematician, one man of genius in a single art or a single science." (So virulent was Raynal's antipathy that his book was suppressed by the French monarchy.) The theory was debated and rejected by early American thinkers such as Alexander Hamilton, Benjamin Franklin, and Thomas Jefferson; Jefferson, in his Notes on the State of Virginia (1781), provided a detailed rebuttal of de Buffon.

This has zilch to do with anti-Americanism. It is probably true that, in 1770, America had not produced a great poet, mathematician, artist or scientist. Who can name one? Thomas Jefferson's rebuttal, cited in the article, mostly doesn't dispute the claim, arguing instead that America just hadn't existed long enough to produce greatness.

Bill Grantham, reviewing Philippe Roger, suggests that the idea of degeneracy posited a symbolic, as well as a scientific America, that would evolve beyond the original thesis.

This is a misrepresentation. Grantham describes that as Roger's view, as part of his review of Roger's book, A Geneology of anti-Americanism (2002). It's the same book previously cited in this section, and the same book cited by Meunir in the unpublished paper previously cited in this section. We still have exactly two critics who have suggested that degeneracy theories be considered a "kind of pre-history" of anti-Americanism. Two opinons wouldn't come close to being significant, even if their subject were squarely focussed on anti-Americanism, which it isn't.

The last paragraph comes entirely from the same Ceaser article that has now been used as a source 4 times in this section. This section is based entirely on two sources: one article by Ceaser and one book by Roger. The other sources, Grantham and Meunir, are just indirect references to those two sources. We are using this article as platform to promote a minority view. It needs to be deleted. Life.temp (talk) 11:58, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

I have reverted your vandalism. Marskell (talk) 12:11, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

I hate to throw policy in your face, as I'm sure you already know this, but Life.temp's actions are hardly vandalism. "Any good-faith effort to improve the encyclopedia, even if misguided or ill-considered, is not vandalism. Even harmful edits that are not explicitly made in bad faith are not considered vandalism.". You disagree on what the article should contain. Now, I haven't been here from the start, but Life.temp's current behaviour doesn't strike me as bad faith efforts to compromise the encyclopedia. He's explained above why he doesn't think that section should be in the article. It would be better to refute his arguments than calling it vandalism. henrik•talk 12:56, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

I do not consider gutting an entire section good faith. I simply don't. It's sourced, it's relevant, and it required work on my part. I consider it vandalism. We have argued with Life.temp repeatedly. He has made no attempt to improve sections; he has brought no sources of his own. His efforts at improvement have consisted of cutting sections he doesn't like whenever the mood strikes. The only thing he has advocated leaving is Chomsky, so the POV is clear. No matter how many sources I bring for that section he's going to come up with logical gymnastics to try to get it off the page.

As for the points above, nowhere in policy does it say that some minimum number of academics must have commented on something for it to be notable. JSTOR shows an academic reference to the "degeneracy thesis" as early as 1974 (if I can get a hold of it, I will try to add it). It's not a "fringe theory" or a "minority point of view"—two new failures of comprehension on Life.temp's part. It's an interesting piece of history that was obviously widely debated in early America; perfectly legitimate for inclusion. Marskell (talk) 13:45, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

• Reasons given for assuming the removal is bad faith: none. Reasons given for why the section doesn't belong: many (above and elsewhere). You haven't argued with me, in the sense of giving reasons, at all. You've made personal attacks and contradicted conclusions, just as you do above. Reasons given that this article is improved by reduction: much of it violates core policies on neutrality, on negative descriptive of living cultures and people, original research, and UNDUE WEIGHT. Not only does removing junk remove biased text, it simultaneously addresses the problem of undue weight. The repetition of the assumption that only edits that add material are constructive, while those that remove it are disruptive, is getting tiresome. It's ungrounded in logic or policy. Editing by removal is just as valid as editing by addition.
• Regarding the Degeneracy Theory, calling my reasons "logical gymnastics" is just another attack on a person where an attack on his idea is required. You misconstrued the objection: it is not the degeneracy that seems to be a fringe theory (although that's possible), but the interpretation of it as a "kind of prehistory of anti-Americanism." That interpretation exists in one article and one book. Period. It is not even described by its proponents as being squarely related to our topic. There are hundreds of thousands of political scientists and historians in the world, and you want to give an interpretation advanced by two of them a five paragraph section of its own in an article which barely relates to that interpretation. I agree it is in an interesting piece of history: put it in its own article and created a link to it. Life.temp (talk) 20:09, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

The fact that a only a few sources have been given is not necessarily a problem in itself. As long as there are scholarly sources that describe it as proto-AA, and we don't have any sources contradicting that WP:FRINGE is not really applicable. As for your criticism that it is given too much weight, that can be fixed by improving and expanding the rest of the article too. henrik•talk 20:16, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

Since initially replying, I have added two more sources describing the thesis and foregrounding its importance to early Euro-American hostility. Looking through JSTOR a little, there is a small but respectable corpus on this topic. It clearly involves prejudice towards the United States that is of historical interest and has been described by academics vis-a-vis the term anti-Americanism. I agree with Henrik that "improving and expanding the rest of the article" is the larger point. I would like to source other sections in the same way. Marskell (talk) 20:36, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

Giving it a 5 paragraph section of its own presents it as very notable. We should not make it seem more notable than it is. The theory that degeneracy theories are anti-American has been suggested in exactly two places. I'm not sure how expanding the rest of the article addresses the undue weight problem. Do you mean we should make the article so long, a five-paragraph section for a minor theory seems proportional? I think the more standard, Wikipedian approach, is to create a separate article, mention that briefly here, and link to it. As I've said, it's simply not valid to equate improving the article with expanding it. Particularly, when there is no agreement on what the article is really about. As it stands, George W. Bush fits this article's definition of anti-American. Can I expand the article by describing the President's anti-Americanism? Life.temp (talk) 20:42, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

There are three papers that situate the thesis in terms of anti-Americanism. Two that describe the idea as clear Euro hostility towards America without specifically mentioning AA. And two primary sources with obvious bigotry expressed. In short, it is a robustly sourced section.

But, as feared, you are going to want to remove even after other people work to improve and properly source the article. (I guess that should have been expected.) Anyway, carry on shifting goalposts. I'll carry on sourcing the article. Once the page becomes more coherent, the exact weight needed for this section will become more clear. Marskell (talk) 21:29, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

It would help if you explained what you are talking about. There are two original interpretations of the degeneracy thesis as "a kind of pre-history of anti-Americanism"--Ceaser and Roger. That's it, and I don't mean that's it in the article. I mean, that's all there is in the world, as far as I can tell. There are no sources that describe "hostility" toward America in the context of this article, since the USA didn't exist at that time. Nor are any of these opinions clear hostility toward anything in the context of the 1700's. The rest of what I deleted was wrongly sourced. For example, you used a book review of Roger as an original, third, source of Roger's ideas. The book reviewer didn't say what you said he did. The proposal that American hadn't produced a great poet in 1770 doesn't support the theory that people degenerated after arrival in America. And so on. Life.temp (talk) 14:35, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

You seem to be suggesting that because Grantham and Munier rely, in part, on Roger and Ceaser they don't count as sources themselves. Nothing in policy supports you on that. Those are four sources that describe the concept vis-a-vis the term AA. There are two other sources that provide background on the thesis with scholarship extending back to at least the 1970s. Again, it's a robustly sourced section and all you're trying to do is shift goalposts to gut the article. Marskell (talk) 15:23, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

Sources for what? Grantham doesn't say the degeneracy thesis was anti-Americanism. He is writing a book review, and merely reports what Roger says. You have an entire paragraph that factually misrepresents Grantham as a source calling something anti-American. You misrepresent him as saying what is actually said by Roger. Then, you use Grantham--a book reviewer--as a third source so you can call the section "robustly sourced." Meunir's article--apparently an unpublished paper--doesn't give any independent opinions about Voltaire or the alleged evidence of the degeneracy thesis. You are essentially saying "She says Roger says..." and then calling that a fourth source. The other sources either don't support what is in the text, or are inaccessible (e.g the JSTOR). Life.temp (talk) 20:30, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

I tweaked the sentence to make clear Grantham is quoting Roger. Beyond that you have identified no problems with the sourcing. We are free to use book reviews. We are free to use JSTOR papers. Meunier's is a seminar paper and she's well-published elsewhere. Goldstein and Danzer provide ample background on the thesis. The sources do support what is in text. So keep on talking but I'm done here. Marskell (talk) 12:47, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

With all due respect, I found the Degeneracy section to be just plain dumb, at least in this context. I admire your work on the section, which is well-written, and the subject is certainly valuable as a relic of pseudo-science, but I wouldn't include it in an article on anti-Americanism. As an American, I didn't find it offensive at all, and I cannot imagine that anyone would. It serves as little more than an incitement to giggle. Jdtapaboc (talk) 18:39, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

Oh certainly, the thesis itself is bonkers. (Apparently some advocated that the Americas had emerged from the Flood later than the Old World and this was the main climatic problem...) But we don't judge inclusion here on whether a modern American is offended. Sources situate it as an early prejudice toward the country that early Americans saw as hostility (however weird it seems in retrospect) and thus so can we. Marskell (talk) 19:14, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

I think it is fine as a backdrop to the history of AA. It can be used as an illustration that criticism towards the New World, both rational and irrational has changed over the times. Early Americans seem to have thought it a thesis worth refuting. And as Marskell says, we're here to report on what sources state, not to advocate what we personally find believable. henrik•talk 20:00, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

Perhaps the article could be structured in a way that clearly set Degeneracy as a backdrop/precursor to AA. The order is there, but the structure is not; the whole page reads like a jumbled hodgepodge of ideas at present. Maybe it's just me?

I'd also like to see a section devoted to anti-Americanism within America, as I mentioned above under "Chomsky quote." Jdtapaboc (talk) 14:06, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

The hodgepodge thing has been a problem. I have organized it as a rough chronology today. At least now we're not jumping to Anti-Globalization and then jumping back to the early 20th century etc. On your last point, I would suggest starting a section or doing something up in your sandbox. Might want to do some Google scholar searches on McCarythism and "unamerican" to see if contemporary uses of anti-American have been compared. Marskell (talk) 15:08, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

Europe section

I have a few thoughts about the Europe section under "Regional attitudes". It does a relatively poor job at conveying the complexity of the US-European relationship in my opinion. Generally, European leaders have a relatively strong consensus that a strong and healthy friendship with the US is in the best interest of both Europe and the world.

The Iraq war of 2003 was a significant disagreement and lead to a large amount of press describing it as anti-Americanism (also coupled with quite a bit of Anti-French sentiment in the US) and is obviously the most visible case.

I question whether opinion polls showing declining approval ratings in recent should really be mentioned. One could argue that there is a very good reason for that (the Iraq failure), and it is mirrored by a corresponding decline in internal American polls towards its own administration.

But almost completely absent is the left/communistic political tradition, which is still going strong. I think this is the best representative of "true" anti-Americanism in Europe (being "fundamentally opposed to parts of US culture")

I'll attempt to put together a few changed paragraphs among these lines and will post them here for review in the coming days. Any feedback or thoughts is of course welcome. henrik•talk 20:36, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

With the timeline/history basis the whole regional attitudes section needs to be rethought. Colin, for instance, built up a well-referenced section on Latin America, but it will need to be split up into 19th, early-20th, late-20th and so on for the timeline. I was staring at it tonight wondering how best to do the surgery...

I very much agree that this shouldn't be too much about post-Iraq polls. The focus on Bush overwhelmes so much of the history on the topic in Europe. Let's see what you come up with. Marskell (talk) 20:53, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

• It's not tenable to call anyone with a non-capitalist political philosophy "anti-American," even though that could be described as opposition to American culture.

Well, that's not quite what I propose. Obviously any criticism would be sourced, and not more general than what seems to be the prevailing view. But you can hardly disagree that there is significant and persistent criticism of the US among people with a non-capitalist political view. henrik•talk 21:37, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

• Is there a good reason we are proceeding with a timeline approach when there is an explicit lack of consensus for a timeline approach? (Note that calling me names isn't a reason.) Life.temp (talk) 21:17, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

I can't think of a better way to structure any article that traverses time. Biographies begin with birth and end with death. An article on a war begins with the causes and ends with the aftermath. If this article were to become a mere definition of anti-Americanism, then there would be no need for a timeline, but presumably the intent here is to give both a definition as well as a historical backdrop and evolution of meaning. Further complicating structuring is that a regional delineation is also absolutely necessary (including an as yet nonexistent but vital section on anti-Americanism within America). The article seems to currently deal with this by having both timelines within regions and regions within the main timeline. This is pretty messy, but what else can be done? Jdtapaboc (talk) 14:23, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

You are the only one objecting to the timeline approach—but then, you are objecting to everything. I don't see a lack of consensus. In any case, let's see what Henrik can work up. Marskell (talk) 21:35, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

You haven't really provided any alternative approaches though. henrik•talk 21:37, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

I presume that's directed at Life.temp and I agree. If you reject timeline, themes, and regions, how exactly are we supposed to organize the article? Per above with Henrik, timeline is simplest. Marskell (talk) 21:47, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

If somebody is objecting (with reasons), there is a lack of consensus. I gave my alternative approach here: "A better structure would be to choose a few choice examples featuring debate about the applicability of the term, describe both sides, and leave it at that." This, after spending considerable time explaining the reasons I objected to Marksell's approach, in the "Framing" section above . Did Marksell (or anyone) address those reasons? Of course not. Life.temp (talk) 21:55, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

How would that structure address the two-and-a-half centuries that sources have discussed vis-a-vis the term? Marskell (talk) 22:04, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

There is significant and persistent criticism of everything; the US is no exception. I disagree that it is neutral to call that anti-Americanism. Calling something anti-American is an opinion, generally (but not universally) negative. It suggests prejudice. A documented part of the debate is that the term is propaganda; we implicitly take sides in that debate when we ignore that concern, as we do throughout the "History" and "Regional Attitudes" sections. The label is particularly not neutral when it is applied to people who don't accept the label for themselves, as is the case when it is sweepingly applied to whole cultures such as "the French", Japan, the Middle East and Latin America. The problem is particularly difficult for Misplaced Pages when it involves the cultural bias of the encyclopedia: non-English speaking people are obviously not equally represented in an English-language wiki. Does anybody really think there would be consensus about the regional attitudes section if people from those regions were equally represented here? I've made these points endlessly, which Marksell thinks is grounds, not to think about it, but to call it a "crusade," "trolling," "sock-puppetry," "vandalism" etc. The one thing he hasn't done is address the points. When writing about cultures that can't represent themselves here, extra sensitivity to neutrality is required. Life.temp (talk) 22:16, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

Lets avoid personal attacks on wikipedia editors please and talk about the issues. And just to say that if a community really hated America, being a 'proud anti-American' would be a term of praise rather than being pejorative. E.g when Mexico lost virtually half its territory to the USA it was perfectly understandable that a lot of the people there adopted anti-American attitudes. If the American army came and grabbed half your territory and killed a lot of your citizens then 'pro-Americanism' would be the pejorative term rather than the reverse. Hopefully the copy of Rubin and Colp's history of anti-Americanism I ordered will arrive soon so I can give chapter and verse refs. Colin4C (talk) 12:22, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

If a community values "being a proud anti-American", it should be easy to document the community saying that. If they don't say it, it is not our place to say it for them. Life.temp (talk) 13:32, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

I just added a short summary from Rubin, Colin, which you might find interesting. I think that Korean film info maybe over-specific and could be shortened.

I am going to work on the Ideolgy bit next. Marskell (talk) 13:40, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

I saw the film last night and thought of this article... I'm not the cleverest person in the world but even I could see the broad anti-American shafts in a film in which the Yanks propose to blanket Seoul with "Agent Yellow" in order to get rid of a mutant monster which they themselves were responsible for creating. Colin4C (talk) 09:01, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

Life.temp has just deleted everything I wrote without stating his objections here on the talk page. I have therefore restored the valid referenced material on anti-Americanism in popular culture in Korea. Colin4C (talk) 09:06, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

This is the material he deleted:

The recent Korean monster film The Host (2006) has been described as anti-American. The film was in part inspired by an incident in 2000 in which a mortician working for the U.S. military in Seoul dumped a large amount of formaldehyde down the drain. In the film the dumped chemicals engender a horrible mutated monster from the river which menaces the inhabitants of Seoul.The American military situated in South Korea is portrayed as uncaring about the effects their activities have on the locals. The chemical agent used by the American military to combat the monster in the end, named "Agent Yellow" in a thinly-veiled reference to Agent Orange was also used to satirical effect.The director, Bong Joon-ho, commented on the issue: "It's a stretch to simplify The Host as an anti-American film, but there is certainly a metaphor and political commentary about the U.S."Because of its themes that can be seen as critical of the United States, the film was actually lauded by North Korean authorities, a rarity for a South Korean blockbuster film. Colin4C (talk) 09:40, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

As the sources indicate Anti-Americanism is a real thing happening in the world of reality with real implications about public policy (i.e. the relationship between North and South Korea). Hiding our heads in sand whilst listening to Fox News turned up loud on our earphones will not make anti-Americanism dissapear. Neither will censoring material on it in the wikipedia help. It is out there. Believe it. The wikipedia should not be censored.Colin4C (talk) 09:45, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

category:discrimination?

Why should this be under discrimination? its a movement! —Preceding unsigned comment added by Deadlyfish (talk • contribs) 08:19, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

Point of View

I've been reading over past posts, and it seems one of the major problems is the fact that people who do not describe themselves as Anti-American are being described as such. In my view, there are two ways to use term, one being used positively (usually self-referential) and the other negatively (as an insult). When used positively, it is making a reference towards negative points of America (Imperialisation, foreign policy etc). Negatively it is used to insult, making a comment on the positive points of America (ie, Countries in the Middle East being descibed as Anti-American, contrary to the American way of life, etc). I think one of Life.Temp's main points is that this term is being used negatively in this article, descibing entire countries as Anti-American. I think that it should rather be used positively, to show that certain countries or fractions of countries have a self-descibed anti-americanism, an resentment of certain parts of America. Sorry if I that didn't sound clear. Iciac (talk) 01:30, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

I don't understand what you are trying to say. I haven't heard anti-Americanism as being positive (except where anti-Americanism is). ¤IrønCrøw¤ (Speak to Me) 04:14, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

Sorry, make it self referential and externally referential then. Iciac (talk) 05:42, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

1. Jon Herskovitz (2006-09-07). "South Korean movie monster gobbles up box office". Reuters. Retrieved 2006-11-02.
2. Cite error: The named reference Tiff interview was invoked but never defined (see the help page).
3. Heejin Koo (2006-09-07). "Korean filmmakers take center stage to bash trade talks". Bloomberg news. Retrieved 2007-01-13.
4. "North Korea lauds S. Korean movie 'The Host' for anti-American stance". Yonhap news. 2006-11-16. Retrieved 2007-01-13.

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