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Discussions on this page often lead to previous arguments being restated. Please read recent comments and look in the archives before commenting.

This article was nominated for deletion on 27 August 2007. The result of the discussion was Keep.

Archives
Archive 1 - Oct '06 Archive 2 Oct '06 Archive 3 Oct '06 - Dec '06 Archive 4 Dec '06 - Jan '07 Archive 5 Jan '07 - Feb '07 Archive 6 Mar '07 (Some Jul '07) Archive 7 Apr '07 - Jul '07 Archive 8 Jul '07 - Aug '07 Archive 9 Sep '07 - Oct '07 Archive 10 Nov '07 - Dec '07 (Partial) Archive 11 Dec '07 - Jan '08 Archive 12 Jan - Feb '08

References

Moving reflist to top

Why not place the reflist at the top of the page instead? Just as accessible. WLU (talk) 14:51, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

Interesting idea. Since this is a talk page, the usual rules don't apply and the main idea is to make them easily accessible. What do others think? -- Fyslee / talk 15:29, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

Would this be a matter for Misplaced Pages Talk:Talk page guidelines (not that anyone reads those pages)? I have no objections to moving the reflist to the top. — Arthur Rubin | (talk) 15:36, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

I don't object either. A better idea might be if talk pages were modified to keep the reflist at the bottom. Who would we talk to about that. Anthon01 (talk) 15:47, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

Support from three contributors, no real disadvantage, significant advantage of being able to add sections without extra steps? Who would you need to talk to? I'll be bold if no-one else want to risk the possible smack-down :) The only real disadvantage would be archiving, but anyone doing archiving would know enough to leave the section there. WLU (talk) 18:27, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

I meant who would we need to talk to regarding a software change the identifies the reflist and puts it automatically on the bottom of the page. It could be duplicated on the archives page. Anthon01 (talk) 18:44, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

No idea, sounds like you'd have to talk to the wikimedia software developers and I doubt it'd be a priority - not often you see a talk page with {{Reflist}} at the bottom. Until then, any objections to me moving it to the top? WLU (talk) 18:51, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

None at all. I too have thought it should be a built in function on talk pages. What is often forgotten by people who wonder why there is a references section on some talk pages, is the real purpose of talk pages - to discuss and develop article content, especially if controversial. The best way is to make a working trial run, refs and all. That way the text and refs are checked out and any mistakes are caught on the talk page before they end up in the article. It actually works quite well. -- Fyslee / talk 02:32, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

The logical place for it is on the bottom. But because of the problems with new sections, I have 'no objection to moving it for now. Anthon01 (talk) 12:06, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

DONE Anthon01 (talk) 12:08, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

critics

I think "chiropractors" needs to be added to the short list in the following sentence: "Quackwatch has been regularly criticized by the groups it investigates, such as herbalists, homeopaths and other alternative medicine practitioners." Considering this article reads like an homage to Quackwatch and less an encyclopedia article, it would benefit first-time visitors to the page to learn that the organization still considers chiropracty to be quackery, even though the American Medical Association does not.

24.163.88.175 (talk) 06:19, 21 April 2008 (UTC) DEL

Doesn't the AMA consider Chiropractic to be quackery? — Arthur Rubin (talk) 07:32, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

BLP violations, unrelated content, and controversial changes

This controversial change added some BLP violations and some content about Barrett and not Quackwatch. QuackGuru 23:17, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

Please point to specifics. Where is BLP violated? Barrett, as the founder of Quackwatch, is quite relevant, and should be directly included in this article. The criticisms were all directed at Barrett/Quackwatch, quite specifically. ImpIn | {talk - contribs} 23:27, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

Some of the refs are unreliable. This article is about Quackwatch. QuackGuru 23:30, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

Can you be more specific? I only added two references. One is from Quackwatch itself; the other is from leading nutritionist Ray Sahelian, whose site gets much more traffic than Quackwatch. His criticism, which is directed at Barrett's work on Quackwatch, certainly fits. His article is called Quackwatch, and the first paragraph references "Barrett and Quackwatch". ImpIn | {talk - contribs} 23:37, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

For example, the Sahelian, R. reference is a BLP violation. QuackGuru 23:42, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

You're going to have to be specific in that point, because I don't see it. And I mean I need to see a quote from the BLP rule that backs up your assertion. You need to be that specific. ImpIn | {talk - contribs} 23:50, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

Edited that criticism somewhat. What's your take on the revised edition? ImpIn | {talk - contribs} 23:59, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

WP:BLP

Criticism and praise of the subject should be represented if it is relevant to the subject's notability and can be sourced to reliable secondary sources, and so long as the material is written in a manner that does not overwhelm the article or appear to take sides; it needs to be presented responsibly, conservatively, and in a neutral, encyclopedic tone. Be careful not to give a disproportionate amount of space to particular viewpoints, to avoid the effect of representing a minority view as if it were the majority one. The views of a tiny minority have no place in the article. Care must be taken with article structure to ensure the overall presentation is broadly neutral; in particular, subsection headings should reflect important areas to the subject's notability.

Content should be sourced to reliable sources and should be about the subject of the article specifically. Beware of claims that rely on guilt by association. Editors should also be on the lookout for biased or malicious content about living persons. If someone appears to be pushing an agenda or a biased point of view, insist on reliable third-party published sources and a clear demonstration of relevance to the person's notability.

Remove unsourced or poorly sourced contentious material WP:GRAPEVINE

Editors should remove any contentious material about living persons that is unsourced, relies upon sources that do not meet standards specified in Misplaced Pages:Verifiability, or is a conjectural interpretation of a source (see Misplaced Pages:No original research). The three-revert rule does not apply to such removals, though editors are advised to seek help from an administrator or at the BLP noticeboard if they find themselves violating 3RR, rather than dealing with the situation alone. Content may be re-inserted only if it conforms to this policy.

These principles apply to biographical material about living persons found anywhere in Misplaced Pages, including user and talk pages. Administrators may enforce the removal of such material with page protection and blocks, even if they have been editing the article themselves. Editors who re-insert the material may be warned and blocked. See the blocking policy and Misplaced Pages:Libel.

Administrators encountering biographies that are unsourced and negative in tone, where there is no neutral version to revert to, should delete the article without discussion (see Misplaced Pages:Criteria for speedy deletion criterion G10 for more details).

Template:Jimboquote

No evidence has been presented that the Sahelian, R. reference is reliable. QuackGuru 00:01, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

Nutritionist Dr. Colgan claims that one of Dr. Barrett's books, The Vitamin Pushers, hardly discusses supplements but is rather "filled with derisive statements about individuals and organizations in the health care and natural foods industry" and lumps scientists with obvious charlatans indiscriminately. This content is about Barrett and not Quackwatch. QuackGuru 02:46, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

The Vitamin Pushers is sold on the website. It is written by the founder, who has written 90% of the work Quackwatch. The website says that sales of these things actually help support Quackwatch. We can try to do a dispute resolution, but that criticism by Michael Colgan belongs. ImpIn | {talk - contribs} 03:47, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

I don't see how it possibly meets BLP either. Hasn't Sahelian been brought up and rejected multiple times before? --Ronz (talk) 04:48, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

I already took out the Sahelian article. We're talking about Colgan and The Vitamin Pushers now. ImpIn | {talk - contribs} 05:31, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

The Colgan reference is an alternative medicine supporter. Barrett criticizes alternative medicine. This is not a third-party ref. BLP is highly relevant while the BLP violation text is unrelated to Quackwatch. Nutritionist Dr. Colgan claims that one of Dr. Barrett's books, The Vitamin Pushers, hardly discusses supplements but is rather "filled with derisive statements about individuals and organizations in the health care and natural foods industry" and lumps scientists with obvious charlatans indiscriminately. This sentence is the definition of a BLP violation. QuackGuru 08:04, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

I believe we've already brought up and rejected the Townsend Letter for Doctors multiple times. --Ronz (talk) 18:18, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

The Townsend Letter for Doctors is not WP:RS. QuackGuru 17:04, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

the lead

This controversial edit added text to the lead about Barrett but this article is about Quackwatch. QuackGuru 08:04, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

missing sentence

previous version

Quackwatch has been regularly criticized by the groups it investigates, such as herbalists, homeopaths and other alternative medicine practitioners. A number of practitioners and supporters of alternative medicine criticize Quackwatch for its criticism of alternative medicine. Of one of the criticisms, Bao-Anh Nguyen-Khoa wrote, "It appears that Quackwatch.com uses the emotional reaction of its critics to substantiate its position."

David Hufford, Professor of Medical Humanities at the Penn State College of Medicine, wrote an opinion paper in which he asserts that Quackwatch would be more effective if it relied more on research and less on personal beliefs. In regard to the debate over water fluoridation, an anti-fluoridation article in the National Review quotes a "generally informative and persuasive" Quackwatch article, but criticizes its rhetorical style as "perhaps not the best way to win an argument, especially with serious-minded people."

current version

Quackwatch has been regularly criticized by the groups it investigates, such as nutritionists, herbalists, homeopaths and other alternative medicine practitioners. Of one of the criticisms, Bao-Anh Nguyen-Khoa wrote, "It appears that Quackwatch.com uses the emotional reaction of its critics to substantiate its position." Nutritionist Dr. Colgan claims that one of Dr. Barrett's books, The Vitamin Pushers, hardly discusses supplements but is rather "filled with derisive statements about individuals and organizations in the health care and natural foods industry" and lumps scientists with obvious charlatans indiscriminately.

David Hufford, Professor of Medical Humanities at the Penn State College of Medicine, wrote an opinion paper in which he asserts that Quackwatch would be more effective if it relied more on research and less on personal beliefs. In regard to the debate over water fluoridation, an anti-fluoridation article in the National Review quotes a "generally informative and persuasive" Quackwatch article, but criticizes its rhetorical style as "perhaps not the best way to win an argument, especially with serious-minded people."

This controversial edit removed a sentence. A number of practitioners and supporters of alternative medicine criticize Quackwatch for its criticism of alternative medicine. I suggest all the recent controversial changes be reverted to the last stable version. Make small edits and save them and discuss substantial changes here. QuackGuru 08:04, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

The sentence was completely redundant. To emphasize this point, I will be redundant: that first sentence and the sentence I removed say exactly the same thing. Wordiness should be avoided. You still have not responded to the fact that The Vitamin Pushers is sold by Quackwatch; the criticism by Colgan remains. ImpIn | {talk - contribs} 08:13, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

The sentence that was removed was very interesting. It is irrelevant what Quackwatch sells on their website. A BLP is still a BLP violation. QuackGuru 08:18, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

The book is published by Prometheus Books, not by Quackwatch. Quackwatch is not a publishing house. The book is sold many places, including at Quackwatch, which is quite natural considering that one of the authors (Barrett) is the primus motor there. -- Fyslee / talk 23:42, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

Is this a joke for you? I don't have time for it. Explain these sentences are different:

1) Quackwatch has been regularly criticized by the groups it investigates, such as herbalists, homeopaths and other alternative medicine practitioners.

2) A number of practitioners and supporters of alternative medicine criticize Quackwatch for its criticism of alternative medicine.

As far as the Colgan criticism, there's no BLP problems there -- he is reviewing a work published by Quackwatch, and his book review is published in a third-party periodical. I don't see us making much headway here. If you try to remove it, I will revert. We can do a dispute resolution or, if need be, a RfC. ImpIn | {talk - contribs} 11:19, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

Take it to WP:BLPN rather than refusing to review the prior discussions that led to the Townsend Letter being rejected as a source. --Ronz (talk) 18:20, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

There's no consensus. Townsend Letters has not been rejected as a source so far as I know -- the source was linked when I came here. I just fleshed it out. ImpIn | {talk - contribs} 18:48, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

I believe this was resolved on BLPN a few months ago, but I can't find the reference, nor do I recall the resolution. I lean toweard the Townsend Letter being rejected as an WP:RS, but I don't recall my reasoning. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 22:00, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

Here was my previous missing comment in case anyone wants to read it. We have common themes here. Things are missing from the article as well as the talk page. I don't see consensus for any of the recent controversial edits. QuackGuru 02:51, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

recommendations

• Support NPOV and established consensus version. I recommend all of the controversial changes be reverted back to the last NPOV/consensus version. QuackGuru 04:41, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

I have dealt with the concerns raised above by restoring the last, stable, consensus version, thus undoing the controversial edits which, if appropriate at all, belong on the Barrett article. Those sources have already been dealt with on both articles and the current state of the articles, as regards use of those sources, are consensus versions. They should not be added again. -- Fyslee / talk 04:09, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

I restored to the last stable version minus the colgan ref. There is no consensus for the controversial edits. QuackGuru 23:20, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

Explain why we can't add information on the founder to the lead. This reverts good writing. Likely I will have to do some sort of dispute resolution for this. Does anyone else agree with QuackGuru that the changes he's reverted, referenced above, were bad? The first two sentences in the Critics section are redundant. Also, I'd like an administrator's advice on where I go to appeal this kind of tendentious editing. ImpIn | {talk - contribs} 23:39, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

Second opinion on QuackGuru's most recent edit

I see nothing controversial with the edits which QuackGuru reverted here, which is why I'm seeking a third opinion. ImpIn | {talk - contribs} 00:17, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Quackwatch&diff=215201781&oldid=215083847 You were already reverted before. QuackGuru 00:20, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

Quackguru reverted the improvements here, claiming that the improvements were controversial when all they did was reduce wordiness (see two sentences below), make a title professional (Critics to Criticism) and put basic information on the founder of the organization to the lead. QuackGuru also asserts that these two sentences, which occurred together, are not redundant:

• 1) Quackwatch has been regularly criticized by the groups it investigates, such as herbalists, homeopaths and other alternative medicine practitioners.
• 2) A number of practitioners and supporters of alternative medicine criticize Quackwatch for its criticism of alternative medicine.

He complains because I took the second one out. ImpIn | {talk - contribs} 23:41, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

All of ImpIn edits were previuosly reverted. QuackGuru 00:24, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

I reverted Fyslee to put back in the improvements while taking out the controversial stuff. Then you edited out the improvements, which is what we're discussing. Reversions are irrelevant -- we talk about content. Note that Fyslee's claim to be reverting it back to the way it was is false; she didn't put back The Vitamin Pushers citation, which was here for a long time. ImpIn | {talk - contribs} 00:27, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

ImpIn restored parts of the controversial edits. QuackGuru 00:49, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

Please explain exactly what is the difference between my edit and Fyslee's edit. QuackGuru 00:49, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

The only thing I see as controversial was the Michael Colgan criticism. I reject that the others are controversial, and since you are unwilling to discuss why these other edits (detailed above) are controversial, I'm requesting a second opinion.

Journal of Scientific Exploration

I will be adding a "website review" by the aforementioned journal, listed on this page. The review is done by a Dr. Joel M. Kaufmann, who did his PhD in Organic Chemistry at MIT. I listed this source at BLP/N, since I expect QuackGuru and Fyslee will contest it. ImpIn | {talk - contribs} 01:37, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

JSE is unreliable (BLP violation)

Here are some examples that show JSE does not pass the rigors of BLP policy. Editing is based on Misplaced Pages policy.

1. JSE is a fringe science journal because they attempt to rationalize UFOs while a true skeptic journal publication is critical and/skpetical of UFOs. The journal attempts to rationalize the evidence for the existance of UFOs. Moreover, JSE describes itself as a fringle journal because they assert on their website it is a "critical forum of rationality and observational evidence for the often strange claims at the fringes of science." Saying JSE is a skeptic's journal would entirely be original research. So what is the point? The journal is a "forum" for "rationality" of "the often strange claims at the fringes of science" which would make it a 'fringe science' journal. If any Wikipedian thinks the journal is not a fringe science journal, what kind of journal is it then? Keep in mind that current consensus for the JSE article is for it to remain in the fringe science category. Robert Todd Carroll of the Skeptic's Dictionary stated in part: "In fact, the so-called Association for Skeptical Investigation is a group of pseudo-skeptical paranormal investigators and supporters who do not appreciate criticism of paranormal studies by truly genuine skeptics and critical thinkers. The only skepticism this group promotes is skepticism of critics and criticisms of paranormal studies." He also stated in part: "However, Gary Schwartz, in a published paper, refers to several of the deceased—including William James!—as “departed hypothesized co-investigators,” so perhaps the group considers the spirits of Keen and Truzzi as active investigators. The Society for Scientific Exploration was founded by Marcello Truzzi. The only conclusion demonstrated by the examples is a fringe science journal.
2. If you believe the journal is not a fringe science journal, then what type of journal do you believe it is. Moreover, if you believe the journal is not a fringe journal then what is a fringe science journal (A definition of a fringe journal is requested). Please provide specific examples and descriptions of the differences of a fringe science journal versus JSE.
3. If you believe JSE is a skeptic organization then please provide examples of JSE being the same as other skeptic organizations.
4. Kauffman is a person and therefore not formally peer-reviewed. We cannot use his asseration on it own face value. Moreover, his notability (or more precisely, lack of notability) is a straw-man argument. Is there even an article on Misplaced Pages on Kauffman? Per BLP policy, we insist on reliable third-party published sources and a clear demonstration of relevance to the person's notability. Kauffman is not a third-party published source. If you disagree, please explain. When you cannot explain how Kauffman satisfies BLP policy, you (yes, I mean you) have conceded Kauffman is not a reliable third-party published source. This isn't my rule, this is Misplaced Pages's rule as required by BLP policy. Again, how in the world is Kauffman independant of a third-party published source satsifying to BLP policy. The answer is obvious. He does not satisfy BLP policy. BLP policy drives editing on Misplaced Pages articles on notable individuals. A couple of editors are asserting but are actually refusing to explain how Kauffman meets BLP policy. You must properly show and not assert based on Misplaced Pages policy. Again, how does Kauffman specifically meet BLP policy. Please explain by citing BLP policy. Do you agree to abide by BLP policy anyhow.
5. The journal describes itself as a fringe journal on their website as well others do. They describe themselves as a fringe journal because they assert the rationalizing of "strange claims at the fringes of science." For example, Michael D. Lemonick wrote an article about the Society for Scientific Exploration called Science on the Fringe for Time Magazine. My recent edit was not reverted because of any misleading statement. The other editor felt it was not necessary to say what the journal is and to, nevertheless, keep the description of what the journal is only after you went to the editor's talk page.
6. Barrett studies quacks which would make him a skeptic. See at the bottom right hand corner of this article: American Skeptics. Barrett is in the category of American skeptics. The journal studies fringes which would make it a "fringe science" journal. For example, the journal studies for the rational evidence of UFOs, reincarnation, and crop circles.
7. Moreover, the journal describes themselves as rationalizing "strange claims at the fringes of science." The point is that they "rationalize" the "fringes of science." Thats exactly what a fringe journal does. Please contact them directly. In fact, the journal is proud of being a fringe science journal. See what they will tell you about themselves. What is scientific about crop circles? Hmmm. The journal studies the so-called science of crop circles made by UFOs. Everything the journal does is obviously on the "fringes of science." Therefore, it is clearly a fringe science journal when they are a forum to "rationalize" the "fringes of science." For example, it is a group inclined toward belief in paranormal phenomena. The fringe journal clearly fails the rigors of BLP policy becuase it is not a third-party source. While Barrett criticizes various forms of alternative medicine topics, JSE attempts to rationalize alternative medical practices.
8. This is an example of how the term peer-reviewed can easily be misused or misunderstood. The JSE is reviewed by a minority group of fringe supporters. This minority group who share the same fringe ideology, without any review from dissent, falls into the category of reviewed by true believers of the so-called rationale fringe of true believers and their self-serving bias. They are fringe supporters because they attempt to rationalize such things as UFOs. For further information about how JSE portrays themselves, please visit the website.
9. See: Journal of Scientific Exploration. JSE is subject to review "at the discretion of the Editor-in-Chief." If the paper is accepted "but there remain points of disagreement between authors and referee(s), the reviewer(s) may be given the option of having their opinion(s) published..." The journal clearly is subject to the discretion of a single person which is the Editor-in-Chief. Therefore, the journal clearly publishes opinions without always having editorial review. Furthmore, the journal is reviewed by a small group of fringe supporters who attempt to rationalize such things as UFOs at "the fringes of science." Hmmm.
10. The journal represents unconventional views. For example: In established disciplines, concordance with accepted disciplinary paradigms is the chief guide in evaluating material for scholarly publication. On the matters of interest to the Society for Scientific Exploration, however, consensus does not prevail. Therefore the Journal of Scientific Exploration necessarily publishes claimed observations and proffered explanations that will seem more speculative or less plausible than in some mainstream disciplinary journals. See Refereeing at the JSE article.
11. Please take a look at the Journal of Scientific Exploration at the bottom right hand corner. What do you see. Is it >> Fringe science journals? Specifically what category is the fringe science journal in? Also, what do you see is the first listing in the see also section?
12. Per WEIGHT: We should not attempt to represent a dispute as if a view held by a small minority deserved as much attention as a majority view. Views that are held by a tiny minority should not be represented except in articles devoted to those views. To give undue weight to a significant-minority view, or to include a tiny-minority view, might be misleading as to the shape of the dispute. Misplaced Pages aims to present competing views in proportion to their representation among experts on the subject, or among the concerned parties. This applies not only to article text, but to images, external links, categories, and all other material as well. If a viewpoint is held by an extremely small (or vastly limited) minority, it does not belong in Misplaced Pages (except perhaps in some ancillary article) regardless of whether it is true or not; and regardless of whether you can prove it or not. Views held only by a tiny minority of people should not be represented as significant minority views, and perhaps should not be represented at all.
13. Per BLP policy: The views of critics should be represented if they are relevant to the subject's notability and can be sourced to reliable secondary sources, and so long as the material is written in a manner that does not overwhelm the article or appear to side with the critics. Be careful not to give a disproportionate amount of space to critics, to avoid the effect of representing a minority view as if it were the majority one. If the criticism represents the views of a tiny minority, it has no place in the article. Content should be sourced to reliable sources and should be about the subject of the article specifically. Beware of claims that rely on guilt by association. Editors should also be on the lookout for biased or malicious content about living persons. If someone appears to be pushing an agenda or a biased point of view, insist on reliable third-party published sources and a clear demonstration of relevance to the person's notability.
14. Remove unsourced or poorly sourced contentious material: Editors should remove any contentious material about living persons that is unsourced, relies upon sources that do not meet standards specified in Misplaced Pages:Verifiability, or is a conjectural interpretation of a source (see Misplaced Pages:No original research). If the material is derogatory and unsourced or poorly sourced, the three-revert rule does not apply to its removal. Content may be re-inserted when it conforms to this policy. These principles apply to biographical material about living persons found anywhere in Misplaced Pages, including user and talk pages. Administrators may enforce the removal of such material with page protection and blocks, even if they have been editing the article themselves. Editors who re-insert the material may be warned and blocked. See the blocking policy and Misplaced Pages:Libel.
15. Blocking: Editors who repeatedly add or restore unsourced or poorly sourced contentious material about living persons may be blocked for disruption. See the blocking policy. This is an official notice to all editors involved. This is a very serious matter.
16. Multiple Wikipedians have deleted the Kauffman attack piece from the article. Avb, + ConfuciusOrnis, + Crohnie, + Fyslee, Orangemarlin, + QuackGuru, + Ronz, + Shot info + THF. As the discussion continued, Arthur Rubin, an administrator in good standing in the community, stated that JSE is clearly a fringe journal. According to policy, While the consensus process does not require posting to the discussion page, it can be useful. That means we do not have to continue to work on discussing this matter. Their points are based on valid reasons to exclude the POV material which is to be respected. Clearly there is no consensus to re-add the Kauffman/JSE bit to the article. It was removed for various reasons including, but not limited to, BLP policy, WEIGHT policy, and POV. It is considered highly disruptive to re-add BLP violations against consensus. Re-inserting BLP violations is against Misplaced Pages policy and by extention against Misplaced Pages. Any editor who continues to try the patience of the community by engaging in disruptive editing may be blocked for disruption in accordance with blocking policy or community banned.

Please provide specific responses to each and every point made above or we will consider that the editors have conceded that JSE fails to meet the inclusion criteria because the journal is not a reliable third-party source. (a) Per WEIGHT policy, the Kauffman criticism represents the view of a tiny minority, therefore it has no place in the article. (b) We have clearly shown based on Misplaced Pages's BLP policy that Kauffman as well as JSE are not third-party published sources. Thanks. QuackGuru 01:47, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

1. Skepdic article on positive pseudo-skeptics
2. Robert Todd Carroll "Internet Bunk: Skeptical Investigations." Skeptic's Dictionary
3. Cross A (2004). The Flexibility of Scientific Rhetoric: A Case Study of UFO Researchers. Qualitative Sociology. Volume 27, Number 1 / March, 2004

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