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Revision as of 02:24, 28 August 2005

Terri Schiavo

Well, the recent talk on the talk page has people from all sides either agreeing the article is great or simple silence -no actual complaints which I can recall -in the recent past that is. (Let me add that this is both a controversial -and a well-known -topic, and thus it should be a featured article if it can be protected from vandalism. MAIN REASON: Public interest on this topic from people on both sides --all sides --of the issue.) GordonWattsDotCom 04:11, 26 August 2005 (UTC)

All these math and science majors, but illogical comments. Wow! OK, let me try to reply below...--GordonWattsDotCom 06:39, 26 August 2005 (UTC)

• Object strongly. Here's the short list of what's wrong with the article: TOCright breaks the manual of style, the TOC (with its 37 sections) is quite overwhelming, the article has no introduction, it has no references section to complement the inline linking, it has a see also section (which should be converted to prose, inserted into the article, and the section deleted), every image used in the article is fair use, and it's 80 kilobytes long and should be shortened and/or broken into subarticles. →Raul654 04:34, August 26, 2005 (UTC)
  • "TOCright breaks the manual of style" Well, why do we even have a TOCleft if it's "wrong," Mark? Here's why: Raul654, the Table of Contents on the left side would be adjacent to the "sub-articles" contents box, and this would not only look funny but also maybe get people confused into thinking that they are the same thing; They are different: The Table of contents is for that page, and the other box is for related articles. "the article has no introduction" It does. Take a look at the first paragraph. Is that not an introduction? "it has no references section to complement the inline linking," OK, I agree with you on this point: You are welcome to add links to other pages, for example, some of my personal pages offer additional resources, but they have been voted down by other editors who didn't understand that the vanity policy only discouraged links to your own pages -and did not fully prohibit such. If you can fix this, then do. If not, we can ignore, as it's "close enough" to please me. "it has a see also section" OK, I must have missed that. Could you be more specific on exactly what paragraph you mean here? "every image used in the article is fair use" So? Have we violated policy? (I link to the laws below.) "and it's 80 kilobytes long and should be shortened and/or broken into subarticles" We've already broken it into sub-articles. Do you want us to tear it into small grains of sand. This article could even be longer (it was a "long ordeal" for the nation and the news media -and the family), but I think we've struck the right balance.--GordonWattsDotCom 06:39, 26 August 2005 (UTC)
    • Erm, that box needs to be eliminated (along with the see also section), and the article broken up into sub articles with template:main. See our Evolution featured article to see an example of doing this properly. →Raul654 06:44, August 26, 2005 (UTC)
      • OK, I think this is a minor style difference, and if you want to change the format to say "main article" instead of "see also," I don't think it would create a fire-storm, but be careful: We've hammered out a lot of problems and have concensus after much work.
        • Um, no disrespect intended, but after reading your replies, I have to ask - have you actually looked at any featured articles? Or, for that matter, Misplaced Pages:What is a featured article?
          • I haven't studied featured articles, no, but I have seen a lot of other articles and think the Schiavo one can hold it's own, and yes, I did read the rules. Look at my very first edit on this page before ZScout removed some extra quotations of the rules.--GordonWattsDotCom 07:40, 26 August 2005 (UTC)
          • The introduction: Compare the introduction on Terri Schiavo with the introduction on today's featured article, Angkor Wat. The latter has an introduction that gives all the essentials, the who-what-when-where-why, whereas the Schiavo article has a single sentence that only describes, in the vaguest sense, who she was. "The lead should briefly summarize the most important points covered in an article in such a way that it could stand on its own as a concise version of the article... The appropriate length of the lead section depends on the total length of the article." - Misplaced Pages:Lead section. For an article of this size, an introduction of 2-3 paragraphs is appropriate; a single sentence is not.
            • Good point, but some others insisted in including extra stuff -it still is good to the reader.--GordonWattsDotCom 07:40, 26 August 2005 (UTC)
          • The images: "A featured article should... Have images where appropriate, with good captions and acceptable copyright status" - Misplaced Pages:What is a featured article. Fair use, while tolerated to a certain extent on Misplaced Pages, is generally to be avoided on featured articles except in the most limited of circumstances (generally when no alternative is available)
            • I'm not an expert here. You are welcome to fix the image legality situation, and then we can have a better article.--GordonWattsDotCom 07:40, 26 August 2005 (UTC)
          • The references section: We are not going to ignore featured article requirements because the editors on the article are too shortsited or ignorant of policies to permit it. Featured article criteria are not subject to negotiation.
            • Good point. This should be easy to fix for a person with authority like you. Can you put in the right links, eh?--GordonWattsDotCom 07:40, 26 August 2005 (UTC)
          • See-also: This section needs to be turned from a list into prose. If something is worth linking to in an article, it should be given in the form of a sentence indicating its relation to the subject.
            • Minor and easy to fix -if you'd like.--GordonWattsDotCom 07:47, 26 August 2005 (UTC)
          • The sub-articles: There are exactly three Terry Schiavo subarticles (at least I only found 3 - the organization of this article is such that these things could be easily overlooked). The ones I found were - Terri Schiavo timeline, Palm Sunday Compromise, Schiavo memo. The fact the main article is 80 kilobytes, and the sub articles are stubby (not counting the timeline which is actually a list) is indicative of serious organizational problems. →Raul654 07:20, August 26, 2005 (UTC)
            • The organization is clear to me: Under Terri_Schiavo#Early_life, I found a WHOLE bunch of sub-articles; Also, under Terri_Schiavo#Public_opinion_and_activism, we find this link clearly visible beneath the title: Main article: Public opinion and activism in the Terri Schiavo case (Gordon Watts; I signed below, but had to split this paragraph due to the format of the link breaking the paragraph here in two.)
            • You did spot several sub-article, but there are LOTS, so the article IS sub-divided properly, in my honest opinion. Have you been up many hours? How could you have missed so many links here?--GordonWattsDotCom 07:47, 26 August 2005 (UTC)
              • OK, I've gone ahead and fixed most of the problems. However, the article still needs references (specifically, it has plenty of html commented references; people need to uncomment them into some acceptable inline style, and compile them into a references section) and add copyleft images. →Raul654 02:24, August 28, 2005 (UTC)

• Object. Way to long, and I can't see how this can ever be completely NPOVed. WegianWarrior 04:57, 26 August 2005 (UTC)

Yes, WegianWarrior, it is long, but it would be longer if the sub-article were still in the main article -but some other editors removed them; As far as the NPOV, we don't strive to have a single "neutral" view, but instead, the policy of Misplaced Pages states that we must present all views with equal fairness, giving prominence, of course, to the main views, but also telling of minority view. Yes, we've argued, but this is about the most agreement you can expect on this type of controversial article, so smile and be happy -and consider: What do you seek here? Is it possible and/or reasonable? What do you expect us to do with the article? If you got any ideas, you come and help us edit it; I'm getting tired and fatigued from over-work, here and in my personal life, doing double-duty.--GordonWattsDotCom 06:39, 26 August 2005 (UTC)

To quote a suggestion from the last peer review this article went thru:

"Terri Schiavo (blah blah 19?? - foo foo 2005) was an American woman who was in a persistent vegetative state. (no discussion of PVS should be in this article whatsoever - just link to the PVS article) Although this diagnosis was disputed by a minority of doctors who diagnosed her (refs), it was upheld a number of times by the courts (refs). Her husband, Michael Schiavo, took the decision to have her feeding tube withdrawn, a decision which was hotly contested and challenged by her parents (refs). The case garnered widespread national and international media attention, splitting the American public. A number of attempts were made by various individuals, church leaders and politicians (refs) to overturn the decision to withdraw the feeding tube, but at each stage courts upheld the original decision (refs). Eventually, Terri Schiavo passed away x days after the removal of her feeding tube on foo foo, 2005."

Off course, it can (and possible should) be expanded with the section on her life _up to her accident_. The rest can easily be moved into sub-articles and referred from the article. In my opinion, the article as it stands now says virtually nothing about Terri Schiavo, but a whole lot about family relationship, family breaking up, discussions on PVS, legal battles and stuff... which bloats the article something fiercely.

Anyhow, that’s my opinion - VMMW, but as the article stands now I must still object to it being of worthy of being a FA. As a side note, the way I understand WP:NPOV, the article itself should be neutral, as opposed to your interpretation of providing several POV’s with in the article. WegianWarrior 07:16, 26 August 2005 (UTC)

• • • WegianWarrior, what is "VMMW?" I can not find this acronym/abbreviation, like "IMHO" stands for "In my honest opinion" and rofl stands for "rolling on the floor, laughing." Thanks in advance.--GordonWattsDotCom 07:47, 26 August 2005 (UTC)

It's a typo for YMMW - Your Mileage May Wary. Sorry for the confusion WegianWarrior 08:17, 26 August 2005 (UTC)

Oh, you must really be Norwegian, hense English may be a 2nd language. It is spelled "Vary" with a 'V', but you are doing well in English. Thank you; I should have recognized that -it was close to the right spelling.--GordonWattsDotCom 08:21, 26 August 2005 (UTC)

• smiles* Off course I'm really Norwegian - I didn't pick this username randomly =) As for doing well in English - it's partly due to my line of work, partly due to other things. WegianWarrior 08:34, 26 August 2005 (UTC)

To put the length problem into perspective, this article contains approximately 10,000 words of prose, or 25 pages. Running it through some readability tests gives a Flesch-Kincaid grade level of 13 and a fog factor of 12.7 (foggy), so the average person will take 30-45 minutes to read it. A good article will take about 20 minutes to read, and be at a 10th grade reading level. --Carnildo 05:29, 27 August 2005 (UTC)

• I would also explain the reason why we have to use Fair Use on the pictures here. Zscout370 (Sound Off) 05:00, 26 August 2005 (UTC)

Huh? What is your explanation, and how does it relate to the qualifications and merits of the Schiavo article as a featured article?--GordonWattsDotCom 06:39, 26 August 2005 (UTC)

See Carnildo's objection below. I mainly made my statement as a comment. Zscout370 (Sound Off) 17:59, 26 August 2005 (UTC)

• PS: Thanks for removing my extra quotations from the rules. I'm kind of new to the nomination stuff.

• Object. Needs a better intro, needs to be cleaned up, needs to be condensed, possibly moving text to sub pages, and I think it probably violates wikipedia's "Stable" requirement for FAs. Being featured, as mentioned, would likely exacerbate an already existing problem. I think the only way this can be fixed is time... as Terri Schiavo is moved out of "recent events" and into "history" it might be easier to get an more NPOV perspective on the issue. Fieari 05:42, August 26, 2005 (UTC)

"Needs a better intro" Well, what is wrong with it? "needs to be cleaned up" Huh? We have regular spell-checks and grammar experts who regularly keep it clean. "needs to be condensed, possibly moving text to sub pages" We already have many sub-pages; do we need more? Are you sure? If so, then help us out. If not, then please reconsider your analysis. I await your feedback.--GordonWattsDotCom 06:39, 26 August 2005 (UTC)

• • I think you misunderstand the stability requirement - the stability requirement is meant to discourage articles that are *currently* unstable; it's not meant to apply indefinitely to the future. In the case of this article, it's only gotten 5 small edits in the last week, which (to me, as the person who wrote that requirement) is relatively stable →Raul654 05:48, August 26, 2005 (UTC)

I agree with you on this point. It (finally!) appears to be stable, and I personally think it should be protected and edited only by paid, screened, and trained professional editors, but that is my opinion and maybe not consensus, since this is "wiki," you know.--GordonWattsDotCom 06:39, 26 August 2005 (UTC)

• Object
  1. The image Image:TerriSchiavo2.jpg is claimed as "fair use". However, it does not have either a fair-use rationale or source information.
  2. The image Image:Schiavo catscan.jpg is claimed as "fair use", but does not have fair-use rationale or definitive information about who owns the copyright.
  3. The image Image:Schiavo.jpg is claimed as "fair use", but it doesn't really add anything to the article. Thus, any claim of fair use is doubtful.

You can certainly contact http://TerrisFight.org if you have concerns about this. They have a feedback form. Alternatively, you can take a look at the laws, (our Florida state laws, Federal, and International) here, here, or here. While I'm not a lawyer, I don't think tat we violate fair use. It shouldn't be that hard. We've had NO complaints from the official Terri's Fight website, the source of most or all the images, I would imagine. Most of these people are my personal friends, and I'm sure I would have heard something about it by now if there were a problem, but if you have doubts, contact Pamela Hennessey and crew at http://TerrisFight.org --GordonWattsDotCom 06:39, 26 August 2005 (UTC)

• 1. The image Image:Terri Schiavo grave.jpg is claimed as "fair use". Unless there's something really unusual about Sylvan Abbey Memorial Park, it's quite possible for a Wikipedian to take a picture of the gravesite and place the photo under a free license. There is no reason to use a "fair use" picture here.

  --Carnildo 06:18, 26 August 2005 (UTC)

So, what you're saying is that this is just a photo of a public area and noting proprietary about it, right? So, that should be even more reason to not worry, right? Am I missing something here?--GordonWattsDotCom 06:39, 26 August 2005 (UTC)

Yes, you're missing the fundamental nature of Misplaced Pages. Misplaced Pages is a free content encyclopedia. That means that other people are free to take the content and create other works from it. This is not possible if parts of an article (such as the images) are under a non-free license such as "fair use". In an ideal world, Misplaced Pages would not have a single fair-use image in it. However, since in the real world it's hard or impossible to get free-use images for pop culture subjects, fair-use images can be used in articles. Their use should be kept to a minimum, though. --Carnildo 07:37, 26 August 2005 (UTC)

I believe the image of Terri with her mother comes from 6 hours of video that is part of the court record. Terri's parents took the video as part of a court case. They then took 4.5 minutes of that video, turned it into clips, and released it on the web. But the original images should be part of the court record. I'm not sure if that's public record or if it's sealed or what. Someone who knows the law could figure this out. FuelWagon 14:30, 26 August 2005 (UTC)

As a legal matter, you're wrong about the effect of ease of replacement on fair use. The easier it is for someone to replace a "fair-use" image with a free-use image, the harder it is to claim fair use on it. --Carnildo 07:37, 26 August 2005 (UTC)

Carnildo, could you provide a legal source for that last claim (that the easier it is for someone to replace a "fair-use" image with a free-use image, the harder it is to claim fair use on it)? Cedars 08:13, 26 August 2005 (UTC)

• Support. I don't know all things about everything, but I do feel that the Schiavo article is a good treatise about Terri. That is one reason http://Google.com rates it THIRD in the world -here: http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=terri+schiavo --for this reason and those stated elsewhere in this comment/talk/discussion page, I support the nomination. Sincerely,--GordonWattsDotCom 08:08, 26 August 2005 (UTC)
• Comment. I have to correct you slightly... Google don't rank it third because its a good treatise (se Proto's comment below for that btw), but because a lot of people link to the article. There is a difference between that and being 'endorse' by Google (which is how I read your comment. Again, YMMW) WegianWarrior 08:24, 26 August 2005 (UTC)
  • Logged and noted, WegianWarrior -you're right: The high rating in GOOGLE is due to people linking to the page -not due to accuracy (and in a "wiki" format, errors can creep in) -However, who do people link to it? Very Accurate, and EXTREMELY comprehensive. That's just my guess, but google.com indirectly gives the article a "good reference."--GordonWattsDotCom 00:55, 27 August 2005 (UTC)

• Object. I already commented on this article on its Peer Review, and few if any of the comments from myself and other editors on the Peer Review have been actioned, yet the article has still been nominated for FA status? Daft. Too long, too much 'he said she said', not encyclopaedic at all. It is indeed a (fairly) good treatise. A treatise is not an encyclopaedia article. Proto t c 08:20, 26 August 2005 (UTC)

• object. I think the article has come a long way, and I think it says something that the edit wars have stopped, but 80k too long. I've yet to figure out how to split it into anything smaller. Unfortunately, I don't think it is possible to write it without the "he said/she said" approach because pretty much everything is disputed by one side or the other, so I don't think that will ever go away. I'm open to suggestions for some examples of good wikipedia articles that covers a highly disputed, 15-year, battle between a couple of individuals that gained nationwide attention, and polarized the nation as well. I was basically going to sit on it and let it cool and wait for an inspiring idea as to how to cut it down into something manageable. It seems to have cooled now, but that inspiration hasn't shown up yet. FuelWagon 14:30, 26 August 2005 (UTC)

how to split it into anything smaller

• Terri Schindler: Early Life
• Terri Schindler: Initial medical crisis
• Terri Schindler: Rehabilitation efforts
• Terri Schindler's malpractice suit
• Michael Schiavo
• PVS and the law
• Terri Schindler's family
• Terri Schiavo I
• Terri Schiavo II
• Terri Schiavo III
• Terri Schiavo IV
• Terri Schiavo diagnosis
• Public opinion and activism in the Terri Schiavo case
• Terri Schiavo's Death
• Terri Schiavo Autopsy
• Terri Schiavo Memorial

4.250.168.27 19:27, 26 August 2005 (UTC)

• Object. This is way too long and way beyond the scope of Misplaced Pages. I think just the first 2 paragrphs, plus a little summing up statement of its significance should suffice. While this topic is obviously important to those close to the person, it gets a disproportionate amount of attention relative to other articles, and there is really very little in it that would interest a general public. What is needed here is some perspective. For example, the article on George Washington is less than half the size of this article. Is there really twice as much to say about Terri Schiavo than about George Washington that would actually interest a general public? This is not the forum to dispute issues, rather it is the place to put things into their proper perspective and to show how they fit with other aspects of knowledge. What is the historical significance of this case? Why should we remember it in 20 years? What does it tell us about the United States in 2005? Nrets 18:30, 26 August 2005 (UTC)
  • Comment. Maybe the Washington article is too short. See below RoyBoy's comment for WHY I think it is OK for the article to be as long as it is.--GordonWattsDotCom 00:55, 27 August 2005 (UTC)

• Strongly object. Basically everything Raul said. It's not our job to fix the article; it's the job of those who are interested. But as long as the article does not meet the standards of a featured article, I cannot support its nomination. I'm especially annoyed by the lack of a lead section as well as the inappropriately done up references (see Misplaced Pages:cite sources). And simply put, an 80kb article cannot be a featured article. A decent article has to be of a suitable length to ensure the average human being is not put off. Many consider a 40kb or 50kb article to be pushing it, but 80kb is simply way over the top. This is one case where I think we should seriously consider a few dozen subarticles. Johnleemk | Talk 16:04, 26 August 2005 (UTC)

Object. As said by others, the lead is too short and the article is too long. It seems to me that in the quest to reach agreement on the article among various editors everything but the kitchen sink was dumped in. Nrets also raised an excellent point by comparing the George Washington article with the Schiavo one--if Washington's article is half this length, there is no reason for this article to be so long. The references are also not in any of the standard styles.--Alabamaboy 16:56, 26 August 2005 (UTC)

Weak support just to make some points. I think FA status can be more fluid than this. Is the article long? Yes. Is the subject long. Yes. Why not sub-articles? That's all well and good but that's a hell of a lot of sub articles, and perhaps a conscious allowance for the recent occurrence of this event can allow more flexibility on that point for the time being.

Misplaced Pages is different; it gets to subjects fast and hard... and I understand the ethic of delivering relevant information fast and hard too (hence shorter articles). But at this moment moving things into sub articles may be premature given our ability to accumulate information as events take place. What's the waiting period, dunno, I suppose until the article is considered "stable"... and perhaps that has happened for this article since it is being nominated. Also maybe being given the FA status could be the *starting point* of moving things into sub-articles; rather than having it as a requirement a priori. - RoyBoy 19:48, 26 August 2005 (UTC)

• Good Point. Since this article has a LOT of information, "more is better" for the curious mind. Why do you think Google.com rates it so highly? ANSWER: As WegianWarrior points out, many people link to it. Why do they link to it? EXTREMELY COMPLETE and COMPREHENSIVE treatise on the subject, and yet also very accurate. That's just my take, but I think I'm right.--GordonWattsDotCom 00:55, 27 August 2005 (UTC)

Yeah, I'd perhaps tweak my standard when an article should be broken up is when interest in the subject is minimal. I'd say interest in this article is still relatively high, and as such it would actually be detrimental to keep splitting things off; since for now people are more likely to be interested in a complete narrative. In future, we can split it up since obviously the majority of readers will be looking for specific facts for research; and hence the article splitting won't effect them much. Yes an encyclopedia article should be brief, but at the same time it should not be fragmented. - RoyBoy 15:20, 27 August 2005 (UTC)

(Quoting you) "Yes an encyclopedia article should be brief, but at the same time it should not be fragmented." I could not have said it any better, so I'll just agree that readers probably WILL NOT want to look all over for info on this case. Yes, it's been fragmented, but we can "stop while we're ahead." I think the article would be damaged if it were split into smaller parts -and would confuse curious-George readers looking for the bottom line and full story. If they don't want to read the whole thing, at least it's better to have it handy and nearby. Therefore, the problems associated "dial-up" users, for example, downloading a large page are minimal. I could download it on dialup, and I can download it even FASTER! now that i have high-speed DSL -and those T1 LAN line users can download it still faster. Yes, I agree that the "length problem" is over-stated and over-rated and exaggerated.--GordonWattsDotCom 00:13, 28 August 2005 (UTC)

In reply to Raul654's post on the talk page, right before my reply here, is now recopied here:

OK, Mark, I've reviewed and tweaked all of your edits. After all of the fuss over the lack (or deficit) of a sufficient number of sub-articles, I don't see why you wanted to remove the sub-article box present. Plus, after all the fuss over "article length," I don't see why you like all that white space between the table of contents (left side) and the photo. I fixed both of those. I prefer the Table of contents RIGHT -as Jesus has, but I am flexible and am OK with your preference to put it on the left side. I appreciate your interest and knowledge on the issue, but please make sure your contributions don't remove positive elements and "make the natives restless."--GordonWattsDotCom 01:14, 27 August 2005 (UTC)
--GordonWattsDotCom 01:17, 27 August 2005 (UTC)

• Plus, I made additional comments on your talk page.--GordonWattsDotCom 01:33, 27 August 2005 (UTC)
  • I really like what you've done with the article; it's more uniform with the style of other articles now. I think the only reason left to object now is that the article is too long (I'm not too bothered with the fair use pictures issue). I'd try my hand at shifting certain portions to subarticles myself, but my intermittent internet access (see my user page) isn't exactly helping. Johnleemk | Talk 14:54, 27 August 2005 (UTC)
    • "I really like what you've done with the article..." Thanks you. I see your comments here and in the Schiavo talk page, in which you seem to Support the Fac status, with the idea that a few improvements can fix it. Most of your improvements seem, however, related to splitting the article apart to make it several smaller fragments. See my comments to RoyBoy above about that.--GordonWattsDotCom 00:13, 28 August 2005 (UTC)

I thought it was a pretty good article. One of the best 3 in the world on the topic. Maybe it will get even better after being featured. Uncle Ed 00:24, August 28, 2005 (UTC)

• Thanks, for your Support Uncle Ed. I had to "translate" for you, and bold face it so it would be obvious that support is gaining. Also, Mark (aka Raul654, the Fac editor) and I (and others) are working on it, cutting it up and making it smaller and sleeker. I would prefer it be LARGE, but I feel the tide turning against me there. At least it is still a good article, so we hope and pray.--GordonWattsDotCom 02:11, 28 August 2005 (UTC)