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India: Tamil Nadu Stub‑class

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Migration timelines

The article does not cite references to the claim that the migration happened in the 16th centuries. One of the groups of Iyers (including the Vadama subsect) had already migrated from their new found homelands in Tanjore to Palakkad in the late 15th century. The evidences and timeline for the latter migration to Kerala is available.

So the claim of migration in 16th century is inconsistent (rams81 (talk) 17:35, 11 March 2008 (UTC))

Comments by Vyaghradhataki

I have moved these comments made by User:Vyaghradhataki from the main article to the talkpage:

A belief that is held within the community itself is that its members arrived at various points of time in the far south of the Indian Peninsula, and proceeded to get assimilated into the Vadama on the basis of similarity in beliefs and practices. It is this stage-wise migration that is believed to have given rise to the sub-divisions within the group. For instance, one group is called the Vadadesa Vadama, which means the 'Vadama of the North', while another group is called the Choladesa Vadama, meaning the 'Vadama of the South'. According some the first known "immigration" from north by "vadamas" occured during krita yuagam when sreeman narayanan(mahavishnu) descended upon earth as vamanan and tamed and blessed king mahabali. The brahmin retinue that accompanied vamanan is held to have been "first vadamas". The second known immigration was co-ordinated by lord narayanan in treta yugam when he came down as parasuraman and fought with corrupt kings. He is known to have visited have worshipped lord sivan near villupuram and then presented 36 veli of land to temple while appointing personnel to conduct yaagams. The brahmins appointed by him are held to have been " second wave of vadamas". The third such migration occured during the same treta yugam when lord raman was on his way to lanka. He worshipped lord haran near salem and presented the temple with gold and personnel for services. These people are held to have been "third wave of vadamas". The fourth wave of vadama immigration occured during dwapara age when pandava arjuna came down on piligrimage. he built a temple of sivan near coimbatore and appointed personnel for services. They are held to have been vadamas. The last known immigartaion occurred toards the end of dwpara age when a descendant of pandavas called janamejayan after having completed the snake sacrifice came to absolve himself at chidambaram.he is known to have created a temple for lord siva outside chidambaram and also created colonies for serving personnel. This is known to have been fifth wave of vadamas.No matter how many great royal races come and go in bloody catastrophic battles "vadamas" continue to flourish without losing a hair from their body right to the end of kali age. This is greatest wonder of world.

PS:- IF ANY ONE BELIEVES IN THE ABOVE ASSERTION THEY WILL ALSO BELIEVE THAT FOX IS A HUMAN BEING.

This grup is probably an ofshhot of sramanas(buddists and jains) of previous milleniums.

Point No 1: The article on Ramanuja clearly says that he was born a Vadama. And Ramanuja was born in the 11th century AD long before the Vijayanagar Empire rose to power.

Point No 2: If at all, the scriptures from the Vijayanagar period do not mention the term Vadama but use only "Iyer" and "Iyengar", then they do not mention "Vathima","Brahacharnam","Ashtasahasram","Sozhiyar" and "Sivacharya" as well. Besides, the term Vadama is ambiguous and only means "Northerner". How can it be considered to mean "one from North India". Bsdies, as you have already stated there is one sect of Vadama called "Choladesa Vadama". Drawing out a dubious etymological relationship between "Vadama" and "Vaduga" is pure original research.

Point No 3: The Vadamas speak Iyer Tamil much like other Iyers.

Point No 4: Marathis who migrated during Maratha rule in Thanjavur from the 17th to the 19th century AD could understand Marathi. Similarly, Tamil Brahmins of Telugu origin who migrated during and after the Vijayanagar period have retained a knowledge and basic understanding of Telugu.Do have a look at this article about the Bhagavatha Melas of Melattur:. However, apart from the Telugu-speaking Vadamas who are a minority, most Vadamas are not known to have knowledge of any language other than Tamil thereby indicating that if at all there was any migration, then it must have taken place even prior to the Vijayanagar era.-Ravichandar_{My coffee shop} 15:43, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

I agree with Ravichander. I have provided strong arguments based on real facts and not on family legends. The tamil brahmins ever since their association with the British have grown very imaginative and take liberties in expanding family legends by adding a bit of their very own theories creating grand stories of migration, which cannot withstand logic. All of Ravichander's point are very valid. I would also like to draw attention to Sivananda's article on tamil brahmins in which he actually states that vadama were among the ealiest immigrants of tamil nadu. This may not be true, but this indicates that even as early as 1950 there were other family legends. I will further draw attention to the fact that there are a number of family preserved stories which indicate the intense debates between brahacharanam and vadama during the post sankaran period - the debate was in the context of shankracharya's philosophy. All this happened much before tamil region stabilized into smartha and vaishnava sects which happened much before iyer or iyengar separation happened. I dont know how Kerala vadamas can pop up in kerala without coming to tamil nadu. All these 19 th century stories come into place because of perceieved notions of some people( in this case some kerala vadama) that they are somehow not associated with the dravidian land.If one educated person in the family spreads his theory. All his grandchildren and their friends starting lapping up to the stories if it suits thier fancies. I am not aware of any vadama in kerala who does not speak some version of tamil or another! The problem is the community is filled up with people with such imagination of converting theories into family legends, that now they have started appearing in encyclopaedias. My God! —Preceding unsigned comment added by Harishpsubramanian (talk • contribs) 08:46, 14 June 2008 (UTC)

Let me say something. Indian history is, for the most part, speculative and many incidents which are believed to have occurred are pending proof. From what I feel, there is a definite chance that most Tamil Brahmins have migrated from other parts of India. However, the "Tamil origins" of most Tamil communities are highly dubious. The Gounders might have migrated from Karnataka; the Naickers, Reddys and other communities of Telugu origin have all migrated at a very recent period. This being the case, it is pretty much confusing as to which Tamil community is purely Tamil in origin. A look at the Misplaced Pages pages on Thevars and Nadars would reveal that both these communities claim descent from the Pandyas; both Vanniyars and Pallars claim descent from the Pallavas; the Misplaced Pages article on Gounders claimed that Sekkizhar was a Gounder while the article on Iyer claims that he was a Tamil Brahmin. It has become a habit amongst people to claim descent from a powerful ruling family of the medieval age. Vyaghradhataki's claims are quite similar to that. He indulges in vandalism only in order to claim descent for the Sholiyars exclusively, from the Brahmins of the golden age of the Chola Empire. He is of the view that this would put Sholiyars above other Tamil Brahmins.

Meanwhile, I am providing a link to a book written half a century after Ziegenbalg's arrival in India. Here's the link:. This book, written in 1781, mentions that Tamil Brahmins were of three sects: Saivites, Vaishnavites and Smarthas. It doesn't mention anything about Vadugas. Not even a passing reference to the foreign origin of the Vadamas have been made.-Ravichandar_{My coffee shop} 17:12, 14 June 2008 (UTC)

Initially I was the first to Introduce the term vadama refers to people of northern country. But as I read and heard more though this is probable this is not certain. I have removed that, a detail explanation of etymology is anyway provided. The next thing here is when did vadama first come and when did they come last. Neither of the two is clear, but luckily because of the great vaishnava trait of recording history exhaustively, we know that ramanujacharya a vadama lived in 10-11 century ad tamil nadu. What about the fact that some people claim that their ancestors were from deccan. The confusion is resolved if we accept that place of origin is correct but time of origin is not. But even family traditions cannot be taken as history if we dont have concrete materials to prove it. Take the case of St. Thomas christians.

Now second aspect to this is how were the vadamas treated when they emmigrated to andhra and maharashtra, There were called dravids- I have provided an example of Dravid's biography which indicates this. Dravid was a vadadesha vadama and a direct descendant of Sri Appaya Deekshitar. My suspicions were confirmed when I recently read a 18 century british gazette of Satara's history on the net though unfortunately not able to locate it- a clear indication of how little bits of history can disappear and a false history can later be popularized through the wikipedia. In this gazette, it mentions that tamil brahmins migrated to Satara be;longing to bharadwaja and koushika gotr. They called themselves dravids and others regarded them as purest brahmins.This coupled with Rahul Dravid's ancestory indicates that vadama when in maharashtra called themselves dravids. The same thing holds true in case of andhra where they are called thummagunta dravidlu.

Third on Kerala aspect, this is such an unproven claim that only a strong record can be used to make an entry of it. But I dont want to hurt other's research so have not removed it but clearly mentioned that its a notion held by some —Preceding unsigned comment added by Harishpsubramanian (talk • contribs) 17:51, 14 June 2008 (UTC)

I may have said certain things in my article which I am not able to provide a reference. But there are lot more which is based on mere speculation and falsification. Tomorrow I will be reading that my ancestors are greeks. If my opinion is not to be included ,then I am removeingf all unproven statements too —Preceding unsigned comment added by Harishpsubramanian (talk • contribs) 18:02, 14 June 2008 (UTC)

The actual facts(duly noted)

They are held to have been the “land-lords“ and “head-men “ of the Brahmin villages called agraharams. The supposed rule by pagan “vijayanagar” and “nayaks” was completely illegal and illegitimate. This group of “brahmins” is heterogenous, coming from various racial backgrounds, converted and admitted on basis of utility. The literature of this period is both obscure as well as dubious. Some pseudo-scholars have by taking out of context and misinterpreting a few words of sangam tamil , have attempted propogate falseful theory giving the existence of this group in tamilnadu during sangam times. This is both ridiculous as well as absurd as the words using which they have constructed this pseudo-history could hardly have referred to any community. The rest of the rogues have cited an obscure and fabricated migration chart and put up a date of 800 .C.E for this group, this is absolute gibberish, as we know that period was the hey day of chola /pallava emperors whose rule was absolutely blemishless and that the rogue deccan dynasties which housed this group were inveterate enemies to these illustrious clans. The ones who attempt to propogate such non-sense are such a perfect and habitual liars that they can make A.Q.Khan blush for shame. No puranic literature known till date, however vague, re-written, corrupted and irrelevant, make a mention of existence of this group or explain its origin. The fact that these groups do not have worship rights in any of the ancient temples(let alone in the south) further establishes its duplicity and fraudulent nature. Certainly the heterogenuity points to a classless budist/jain predecessorship. It is further noted that this group was behind the smuggling, forgery and re-writing of many ancient documents belonging to previous dynasty and also smuggling the leftover of their bronze works. To attempt to manipulate evidences, history, thieving identity etc are extremely evil and points to the excessive wickedness and oppurtunism of the group that can certainly be dangerous for its survival. Citizens are forewarned against any cheating by this group members and alerted to approach law and order agencies including the federal ones incase of any suspicion.

References 1. http://www.hinduonnet.com/fline/fl1509/15090820.htm 2. http://www.rediff.com/news/2008/jun/19dalits.htm 3. http://www.flonnet.com/stories/20080704251306500.htm —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sembian valavan (talk • contribs) 14:23, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

Rahul Dravid and Vadama

Please read Vedam Jaishankar's Biography on ancestory of Rahul Dravid , that his ancestors were not only from Tamil Nadu, tney were descendants of Appaiah deekshitars. Dravids are well known in maharshtra, it has the same meaning as dravidlu in andhra. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Harishpsubramanian (talk • contribs) 18:13, 14 June 2008 (UTC)

But the article on Rahul Dravid doesn't mention this-Ravichandar_{My coffee shop} 18:34, 14 June 2008 (UTC)

You will need to read the book but you may find discussion on the net about his origin —Preceding unsigned comment added by Harishpsubramanian (talk • contribs) 18:45, 14 June 2008 (UTC)

Refer to talks page regarding Dravid's ethnicity http://en.wikipedia.org/User_talk:Blnguyen/Rahul_Dravid —Preceding unsigned comment added by Harishpsubramanian (talk • contribs) 18:55, 14 June 2008 (UTC)

Once again the date line I have removed. I dont want to get into this date business until we can have something concrete.The opinion of x,y,z is based on opinion of a,b,c . This does not need to be the traditional opinion about the community. We can be sure that dravidlu came from tamilnad. That does not mean anything more than that. The evidence should be not merely based on opinion of one or two websites. In the case of migration from tamilnad, anybody familar with andhra can be certain of it. The other part regarding when, these people came to tamilnadu cannot be merely be based on the statement of this community, this question requires evidence in tamilnadu . Today dravidlu in andhra dont even speak tamil, so how can we rely on some date specified by them? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Harishpsubramanian (talk • contribs) 15:26, 15 June 2008 (UTC)

Migration Dates

However, the date has been provided from a source, which in turn refers to an even older, published source and not a web-page. The fact that they provide a date needs to be taken cognisance of.

While the Dravidlu of Andhra may not speak Tamil today, migration studies show that it takes only three generations for the mother tongue to be supplanted by the local language. Thus, since at least ten to twelve generations have passed since their migration into Andhra, their lack of language cannot be held a reason for considering their opinion of their origins incorrect.

If we were to restrict ourselves to Tamil Nadu in getting dates, it would be quite impossible to find conclusive and clinching evidence, since the question is one of migration, where both origins and destinations, as well as stop-overs matter. Voltigeur (talk) 16:43, 15 June 2008 (UTC)

==

I have taken note of voltiguer's views of 13 century. I have made some edits which clearly specify that 13 century cannot be discounted. But it cannot be taken for a certainity, until we have a real historical record, not theories and not grandpa grandma tales to quote from. Websites and book is alright, but what do they contain. Do they have a palm leaf in a library or a writing on the walls of a temple or do they have the proto vadama or the kins of vadama in the place of origin located at the time under consideration? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Harishpsubramanian (talk • contribs) 02:58, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

The Book quoted in the website belongs to 1935, which is one another reason,why I am very concerned that the entire notion has come in the british times, when rewriting of Indian history had started happening on a massive scale. I have no objection to dates, if concrete dates can be given based on real records —Preceding unsigned comment added by Harishpsubramanian (talk • contribs) 03:05, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

New Information

actually this vadama group is a horde of demonic,nasty,liars,bastards,whores,pimps and all. They can forge any identity at any point of time. It is only a matter of time that these mother fuckers are destroyed forever.brahminical identity of many is certainly disputed and perhaps does not exist at all. This group claims descent from sramanas(classless buddists and jains). The date of vadamas is prior to date of inscription , that much is logical:) --Harishpsubramanian (talk) 04:18, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

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