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Edit this section for new requests

The Great Hunger

• Wotapalaver (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• Colin4C (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Great Irish Famine

Per remedy #1 from this case - All content reversions on this page must be discussed on the article talk page.

After much misrepresentation of sources and/or original research originally added in this edit by Colin4C, today Colin4C sourced a sentence of previously disputed sourcing with this edit. After reading the source, I saw that it clearly did not source the text that was in the sentence in question. I explained this fully with this edit to the talk page, saying exactly what the source now cited in the aticle actually said, in comparison to the actual text of the article, and invited discussion regarding any possible problems with the wording. I then edited the article, to make the text accurately reflect what the source said, and not original research or other unsourced opinion.

Without any discussion on the talk page, Wotapalaver reverted me, thereby adding original research or other unsourced opinion in the process. In the edit summary (which is obviously not the same as discussion on the article talk page) he stated "Since she died in 1977 it's incorrect to quote her as if reflecting today's view", which was repeated with his first post to the talk page regarding the revert two hours later. However, this is nonsensical as the sentence Wotapalver was reverting to was "The famine caused a sense of lasting bitterness by the Irish towards the British government, whom many blamed — then and now — for the starvation of so many people", which contains the phrase "then and now" which obviously presents the view as today's view. Therefore the only possible justification presented for the revert is now null and void.

Despite this Colin4C reverted the edit, thereby adding original research or other unsourced opinion in the process, and has yet to make any attempt to discuss his edit on the talk page.

My original edit was not a revert to any previous version, it was accurately citing a source, unlike the original research laden version reverted to without discussion by Colin4C and Wotapalver. Thanks. Domer48 (talk) 19:12, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

Notified the three article mentors of this thread. GRBerry 04:31, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

Domer48 inserted text which used an author who has been dead since 1977 and whose book was written in 1962 or so, as a source to describe TODAY'S feeling about the famine. As a source for today she's either 31 or ~45 years out-of-date. The edit he made says clearly "She says that it is the terrible years of “the Great Hunger” which are remembered and she suggests only just beginning to be forgiven." Remember, this woman has been dead since 1977 and wrote those words in the early 1960's so this is factually wrong. She doesn't say anything anymore. There was no date attached, nor any caveat about how this quote as as contemporary as quoting Eden about modern British Foreign Policy. Domer48 is engaged in a campaign of disruption on the article and has been using various tactics to try to own the article. Wotapalaver (talk) 08:28, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

This seems to me to be the ultimate storm in the teacup. The Woodham-Smith source supports the original text that the famine caused a sense of lasting bitterness by the Irish towards the British Government. There is no great original research mystery about this or any other controversy. I just thought that Domer's reformulation was very clumsy. Compare:

• Original: "The famine caused a sense of lasting bitterness by the Irish towards the British government, whom many blamed — then and now — for the starvation of so many people".
• The Domer Version: "According to Cecil Woodham-Smith the famine left hatred behind between both Ireland and England because of the memory of what was done and endured. She says that it is the terrible years of “the Great Hunger” which are remembered and she suggests only just beginning to be forgiven."

IMHO Domer's version makes it appear that Woodham-Smith was just expressing her personal opinion on the matter, whereas in reality the dire effect of the Famine on Anglo-Irish relationships is common knowledge. Also Domer's second sentence has a very contorted syntax and is hardly grammatical at all. Anyway, I leave it up to the sage judgement of other editors as to which version they prefer. Colin4C (talk) 09:26, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

One other thing..the reversion WAS discussed on the article talk page. So far my last comment on the talk page is the last comment there. So far Domer48, nor anyone else, has managed to say WHY he should quote long dead authors as if they were alive today. Wotapalaver (talk) 09:25, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

Perhaps you can explain how the same author can be used to source a sentence containing the phrase "then and now", which is in the original research laden version you and Colin4C reverted to without discussion? Domer48 (talk) 12:00, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

Domer48 is - again - forum shopping since he doesn't get his way on the article page itself. The previous text can easily be sourced from multiple sources because it's describing facts that are very well known and entirely uncontroversial (and not even Domer48 is even disputing the facts). If additional references is the concern then there's no problem and Domer48 could provide them himself if he had any interested in improving the article. Unfortunately, it isn't what Domer48 is worried about. He's worried about his ownership of the article being "challenged". His tactics to enforce his ownership have ranged from blanking, reverting, insulting, to now putting in edits which are (inaccurate) block quotes from authors he likes. Wotapalaver (talk) 12:20, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

As the diffs show, you made no attempt to discuss the revert before making it and your first post on the talk page was two hours later. Colin4C has not made any post on the talk page to discuss his revert. Domer48 (talk) 12:38, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

Per remedy #1 from this case - All content reversions on this page must be discussed on the article talk page. It is being discussed on the talk page. So far no good argument has been presented against it. Wotapalaver (talk) 14:09, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

Whatever else comes of this, Domer48 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log) has been blocked by me - for the lesser of 31 hours or until he apologises - for repeatedly referring to another editor as a liar. Angus McLellan (Talk) 16:43, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

Agree with GRBerry, the article mentors should act on this. — Rlevse • Talk • 13:29, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

Resolved

Vassyana trying to referee

The following discussion is an archived report. Please do not modify it. Subsequent reports should be made in a new section.

not an AE issue, and even if it was, were applied to both sides in long running problematic area

While I have respect for Vassyana as a person, I think this administrator has imposed a rather ridiculous set of arbitrary standards on me that will make this noticeboard light up. in particular he has tried to claim that I inappropriately edited psychic and spoon bending here: . Both of these articles are on my watch list and I have edited Psychokinesis in the past with respect to spoon bending and I have edited . My work on Misplaced Pages is to make sure that people do not violate WP:FRINGE and WP:NPOV. I am not stalking Martinphi, but this kind of absurd monitoring is unreasonable since I work in a variety of areas. Note also that Vassyana did not comment on the actual edits (as to whether they were justified by out content guidelines) but seems unusually obsessed with who was making the edits rather than what the edits actually are. This is unreasonable. I strenuously object and will continue to raise the issue until someone explains to me some justification for not making edits simply based on who has edited an article previously.

Thank you.

ScienceApologist (talk) 18:07, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

This set of restrictions applies equally to ScienceApologist and Martinphi. Please see: Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents#Spoon bending and psychic. Vassyana (talk) 18:19, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

I have directed Vassyana to no longer warn me on my talk page. Pursuant to the note I left at the restriction page, I do not monitor which individual is making a specific diff. ScienceApologist (talk) 18:25, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

No accepting intervention by an uninvolved admin that is enforcing an arbCom restriction is unacceptable and in itself a violation of the imposed restrictions. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 20:10, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

It's not an ArbCom restriction. See: Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents/User:MartinPhi. Vassyana (talk) 20:15, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

I see. Refactored my comment. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 20:49, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

closed. see comment at top. — Rlevse • Talk • 13:24, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

Astrotrain 2

The following discussion is an archived report. Please do not modify it. Subsequent reports should be made in a new section.

Blocked for 72 hours

• Astrotrain (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/The Troubles

Astrotrain was placed on a one revert per week as a result of the this arbcom. He has just been unblocked but still continues with his reversions here and here. I feel judging by this comment here that he will continue on reverting and not adhering to the enforcement that was placed on him. BigDunc 17:46, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

Pretty cut and dry, since Astrotrain is on a 1 revert per week restriction. He's been blocked for 72 hours. Shell 18:26, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

Mrg3105 and Digwuren restrictions

The following discussion is an archived report. Please do not modify it. Subsequent reports should be made in a new section.

Blocked for 48 hours

• Mrg3105 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Digwuren

• I believe that this edit made by Mrg3105 on Soviet partisans in Poland is an assumption of bad faith, a personal attack and not helpful in any form. I am too involved with the user to block, and I wonder whether this clouds my judgement. So I ask for more opinions.
• Mrg has been warned and blocked under this restriction before and a quick look at their talkpage shows that they have been reminded on at least two occasions in the past 4 weeks of this editing restriction. Woody (talk) 12:17, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

• Thank you, Woody, for bringing it here first. I certainly feel highly offended by mrg3105 comments, and not for the first time - he has shown bad faith to me and other editors during our discussions at Talk:Armia Krajowa in April, for example (rv summary "because you are Polish", "I find it fascinating that the article was protected by a Polish administrator" and others; do note my request to him to stop commenting on other editors nationality was simply reverted without a comment).--_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 17:11, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

  Unbelievable. A guy insinuated that Piotrus "promotes Poland's never ending crying fowl over the Second World War". How does he dare to edit Misplaced Pages? Off with his head! --Ghirla 06:02, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

Blocked 48 hours. Moreschi (talk) (debate) 17:26, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

User:Alansohn, uncivil, personal attacks, assumptions of bad faith

The following discussion is an archived report. Please do not modify it. Subsequent reports should be made in a new section.

Alansohn was blocked, and then following assurances was unblocked. PhilKnight (talk) 12:47, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

Arbcom decision: Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Footnoted quotes#Alansohn restricted. "Should he make any edits which are judged by an administrator to be uncivil, personal attacks, or assumptions of bad faith, he may be briefly blocked..."

Violation diff here.

• Assumption of bad faith and personal attack: "repeated reverts has been done in arbitrary fashion by User:RedSpruce" -- claiming that my edits are arbitrary, despite vast amounts of discussion in which I have justified my edits.
• Assumption of bad faith: "repeated good faith edits to expand and source these articles were used as an excuse to initiate the litigation" -- claiming I used "an excuse" to initiate litigation.

RedSpruce (talk) 13:22, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

Volation diff # 2:

• Assumption of bad faith and personal attack: "RedSpruce's edit history for nearly a month has consisted almost exclusively of reverting edits to "his" articles..." -- false and unsupported accusation that I claim ownership of articles.

RedSpruce (talk) 00:51, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

I've been following this, and I think RedSpruce's behaviour needs to improve as well. Some of the edits made by RedSpruce have been wholesale reverts. I'm not saying Alansohn's behaviour is excusable, merely that there is more than one side to this and, eventually, something will need to be done about RedSpruce's behaviour. RedSpruce has said: "Sometimes when I remove their garbage edits I take the time to filter in the good edits. Other times it just doesn't seem worth the effort, because I know that my time and effort will just be undone by a revert." This attitude of reverting the good with the bad (especially when the "bad" is debatable - the arbcom case, quite rightly, did not deliver a verdict on that) is not acceptable for a collaborative editing environment. RedSpruce, if you want others to work with you, you have to hold yourself to the high standards you expect of others. Carcharoth (talk) 13:46, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

Carcharoth, the ArbCom restriction was against Alansohn, not me. If you think that decision was in error, take it up with them. RedSpruce (talk) 00:51, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

• The same Arbcom case found that RedSpruce calling me an "idiot" and a "moron" was not uncivil. Any incivility by anyone else has to be measured by that yardstick from now on. --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) (talk) 14:44, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

• User:RedSpruce has finally come clean and admitted that "Alansohn and Richard Arthur Norton have made quite a few valid and worthwhile edits to the articles in question.... Sometimes when I remove their garbage edits I take the time to filter in the good edits. Other times it just doesn't seem worth the effort." (see here). I and other editors have made repeated edits to expand, improve and source the articles in question; User:RedSpruce has in turn simply reverted the changes, with edit summary justifications rationalizations of "rv; see endless discussion elsewhere", "restoring to better version", "rv for the usual reasons", just plain "rv" and no other explanation", no explanation at all, and my personal favorite RV to version _I_ choose to call "stable". RedSpruce has cynically abused Misplaced Pages process to enforce his ownership of these articles, and he's back at it again. RedSpruce's edit history for nearly a month has consisted almost exclusively of reverting edits to "his" articles and shrill complaints that it's everybody else's fault. It's time to deal with User:RedSpruce once and for all. Alansohn (talk) 17:39, 17 June 2008 (UTC)
  • All one has to do is look at User:RedSpruce's first claim to see that he is trying to game the system - Assumption of bad faith and personal attack: "repeated reverts has been done in arbitrary fashion by User:RedSpruce". It is RedSpruce himself who has clearly acknowledged that he can't be bothered to pick out what he admits are "good edits" from the ones he has decided as "garbage edits". All of his edits to the articles in question over the past month have reverted back to "his" version of the articles, regardless of the quality of changes made by any other editor. This is the very definition of the word "arbitrary". The word "his" has been placed in quotations to demonstrate that RedSpruce has shown no willingness to find any edit as acceptable; every single edit has been reverted by RedSpruce back to "his" version, the very definition of taking WP:OWNership of an article. Alansohn (talk) 01:55, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

For violating the restrictions of the footnotes case, specifically harassment, trolling, and bad faith at , , , , , , I have blocked him for 31 hours and added it to the case block summary. MBisanz 03:29, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

Does this board really ignore the other side of a dispute when that side is not the subject of an ArbCom remedy? That seems a remarkably bureaucratic way of doing things. I will leave a warning for RedSpruce in any case, even though that is not related to arbitration enforcement. Carcharoth (talk) 07:28, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

Well if one has broken a policy or done something wrong, then we call him out on it, warn, then block, if the subject has additionally been sanctioned by Arbcom, then that leash of what is acceptable behavior is even shorter. In any event, I think there is an ANI thread addressing RedSpruce's actions, and this thread addressing Alansohn, each in its proper place, I was dealing with this one and and not that one. MBisanz 07:50, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

I have more concerns than this though. I've been reading through the edits you provided to justify your block. In general, providing a long list of "breaches" and a laundry list of charges "harassment, trolling, and bad faith" is not helpful. What would be better is to say specifically what you find problematic about each edit. In particular, which ones are trolling, which are harassment and which are bad faith? I read those edits, and I don't see the problems you describe. I see someone raising issues that need to be discussed, not brushed under the carpet. Carcharoth (talk) 08:01, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

Ok, lets do this the long way Alansohn and Rlevse disagreed on the content of an article, they brought the dispute to Arbcom as part of the Footnoted quotes matter, Rlevse and Alansohn presented evidence indicating the other person had violated various policies in their edits. Arbcom found that Alansohn's overall conduct violated policy. As a result, it issued special sanctions on him.

Within hours of the case closing, he was accusing Rlevse abusing BLP], posting a case study railing at Rlevse at an unrelated page, reposting another summary of his issue with Rlevse at the same unrelated page. When questioned on why he is reposting the same matter, he responds that it may continue until the article is changed. Then brings it up a third time at the unrelated page in an unrelated thread], additionally, he reinserted himself in the debate at Rlevse's talk page, citing the same evidence he had at the arbcom in subsequent posts to the user talk page and assuming further bad faith to Rlevse's actions.

To me this is trolling a dead issue and harassing Rlevse by continuing to dredge up a dead issue at his talk page, while assuming bad faith. I'll note another admin does not disagree with this block, and given the short leash Arbcom placed him on, I feel it was entirely warranted. MBisanz 08:25, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

The point here is that, if you strip away the excess, I agree with Alansohn's basic arguments here. If I chose to engage with this issue at Talk:George Thomas Coker and discuss it with Rlevse, will I be accused of trolling and continuing the dispute? This is why accusations of trolling are rarely helpful. It is incredibly hard to refute a vague accusation of trolling. This is also why blocks such as the one you have made can have a chilling effect. Your block will not only prevent Alansohn from presenting his arguments (any time he tries to talk on the issue now, he can be accused of trolling and harassment) but it will discourage others. Thus the block does nothing to resolve the underlying problems. You are treating the symptoms, not the cause. Carcharoth (talk) 09:25, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

We have so many places to resolve content disputes, RFC, 3O, Mediation, etc, Alansohn is experienced enough to know about them and to know that shouting about it and the people he is disputing the content with on random pages until someone listens is not the way to solve content disputes. MBisanz 09:29, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

Permit me to also add that Alansohn's last "engagement" at the article talk page was May 4th , Rlevse responded and Alansohn never answered him, hardly what I would call good faith engagement in trying to solve a content dispute. MBisanz 09:32, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

That is stretching. The offer by Rlevse is troubling enough in that he sets up admins to resolve a content dispute. He should have centred the offer on editors, regardless of whether they were admins or not. I'm not surprised Alansohn didn't take the offer seriously. Carcharoth (talk) 09:55, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

MBisanz. How about I make an edit to Talk:George Thomas Coker to indicate that Alansohn has made some valid points and that his block does not negate those points, and that the underlying cause of the dispute remains unresolved? Whether Rlevse still remains involved is up to him, but I would suggest that both he and Alansohn let others resolve this. Carcharoth (talk) 09:58, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

• The block could be longer given that parties are strictly expected to comply with arbitration rulings - he's made no assurance that he will. Ncmvocalist (talk) 10:20, 18 June 2008 (UTC)
  • Could you point me to where it is said that editors under arbcom restrictions can be blocked for not making assurances that they will comply with the restrictions? That seems to be asking people to say something, and then judging them by what they don't say, rather than what they do. It is only fair to judge people by their actions, and not what they fail to say. I will also point out: "...he may be briefly blocked, up to a week in the event of repeated violations. After 5 blocks, the maximum block shall increase to one month." - please don't extend the block to a week, especially given that the initial block is disputed. Leave it at that, and see how things go later. And note that the maximum block is a month. More than that would have to be done outside the remedy and outside arbitration enforcement. Carcharoth (talk) 10:39, 18 June 2008 (UTC)
    • I had 72 hours in mind to prevent him from continuing in the next couple of days - his actions speak loud and clear and I see nothing to suggest he'll stop. Do you have evidence to the contrary? Ncmvocalist (talk) 14:49, 18 June 2008 (UTC)
      • I agree that RedSpruce's behavior has been questionable here. However Alansohn is not helping his case with his reactions and edit summaries. If he can moderate his own behavior, and just present his concerns in a calm and civil way, I'd say let him back. If each time we unblock him though, he just resumes spouting off in an uncivil manner, then I think a longer block might be appropriate, while we ask him, "Will you comply with ArbCom restrictions?" If he gives his word to moderate his own behavior, then the block can be lifted early. If not, the block should be left in place. --Elonka 16:31, 18 June 2008 (UTC)
        • Just a note that I have no problems with other admins tinkering with my admin actions, so if someone wants to undo, lengthen, shorten or change the terms of the block, its fine by me. I do like the idea of asking him if he'll comply with Arbcom Elonka MBisanz 16:44, 18 June 2008 (UTC)
          • Agreed, someone should ask. With all the talk about longer blocks, please don't forget my point above that the remedy doesn't allow for blocks under this remedy to be longer than a week, then the maximum later increases to a month. I suspect that is also put in place to stop people running to the community or arbcom for a longer block or ban or change of the remedy. Let's try and run the gamut of option in the remedy before going further. Carcharoth (talk) 17:41, 18 June 2008 (UTC)
            • Whoever asks will do well to unprotect Alansohn's talk page, which was fully protected (unnecessarily, IMHO) upon Alansohn's using his talk page to work on (wholly uncontroversial) content to be migrated later into mainspace (difficult to miss the {{pp-usertalk}}, I know, but I leave a note in any case, lest someone should be irked by A's failing to reply to a query about his willingness to comply with the ArbCom restrictions). Joe 18:45, 18 June 2008 (UTC)
              • Alansohn's talk page has been unprotected. PhilKnight (talk) 19:32, 18 June 2008 (UTC)
                • Wow, I have no idea why it was protected, he was doing what {{2nd chance}} encourages blocked people to do. MBisanz 20:24, 18 June 2008 (UTC)
                  • In view of this response I think the point has been taken; any objection to him being unblocked?. TerriersFan (talk) 21:54, 18 June 2008 (UTC)
                    • I have asked him for one further clarification (about whether he would be willing to "wipe the slate clean" and let go of old disputes), but that's a minor point. If some other admin feels that his first response is sufficient, then I would agree with an unblock. --Elonka 23:24, 18 June 2008 (UTC)
                      • Nice job by El. I have unblocked him because, from the responses, it seems that the point has been made. I hope that Alansohn realises that this is the time for a fresh start all round and that, in future, he will use dispute resolution procedures. If he fails so to do then in the event of a future infraction of policies a lengthier ban will follow. Having said that, any provocative behaviour towards him will also be firmly dealt with. TerriersFan (talk) 00:24, 19 June 2008 (UTC)
                        • Agreed. Nice job, though the page protection could have been handled better - if it hadn't been lifted, then things could have got worse, not better. I also endorse the need to deal firmly with provocative behaviour, but would ask that anyone that appears to be acting provocatively should be warned first. Let's hope everyone can move on from this. Carcharoth (talk) 01:23, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

Agreed - nice job. This matter is resolved, until or unless the misconduct resumes. Ncmvocalist (talk) 15:12, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

Banu Qurayza and Palestine-Israel articles

The following discussion is an archived report. Please do not modify it. Subsequent reports should be made in a new section.

Article in question is not considered subject to specific guidelines of the ArbCom ruling, but editors are reminded that regular policies and guidelines relating to edit-warring are obviously applicable.

User:Shell Kinney notified users Str1977 and Bless sins that their edits to Banu Qurayza are covered by the editing restrictions implemented by the ArbCom under Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Palestine-Israel articles. Several people, including myself, have asked Shell Kinney on their talk page why they believe the article falls under the scope of that ArbCom decision, but received no satisfactory answer. I inquired Shell Kinney whether other instances when Muslims massacred Jews in the Middle Ages (like 1066 Granada massacre) must also count as Palestine-Israel articles, but again, Kinney's response was far from clear. While the ArbCom apparently wants Palestine-Israel topic area to be interpreted broadly, extending it to events that predate the conflict by about 1,300 years looks like an overstretch. Beit Or 20:11, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

I thought I was pretty clear; I felt due to the subject of the article, the historical dispute over the accuracy of accounts and the obvious undercurrents in the current article dispute that it is, while historical, an aspect that would be covered by the Israel-Arab conflict case. I would be happy to go into further detail if any of that explanation is unclear. Even an editor who showed up to argue against its inclusion under this umbrella had to agree that the subject was polemical and disputed along those same lines . As I said in my reply, as to the other article I was asked about, I am completely unfamiliar with it and can't speak intelligently as to whether or not it would fall in the same dispute. I didn't look into that question farther, since honestly, I'm not sure mentioning that other article was supposed to relate, unless its a WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS type argument.

While I welcome additional input and clarification of the applicable case, its interesting that the editor question was not involved in the dispute nor was he notified of the case. If anyone would like further background on the current dispute and problematic behavior that led to these notifications, please let me know and I'll put together an overview. Shell 20:50, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

If said massacre still has contemporary repercussions, or if the editors involved in the dispute are also part of the same set who fight over Israeli-Palestinian articles, then yes, the arbitration case applies. If not, no. Moreschi (talk) (debate) 21:26, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

The wording from the arbcom case is:

area of conflict in this case shall be considered to be the entire set of Arab-Israeli conflict-related articles, broadly interpreted.

I'm not sure whether this applies. The article concerns a conflict between Arabs and Jews, but not (obviously) between Arabs and Israelis. We could request a clarification about this. In fact we could request the wording be broadened to include all Arab-Jew conflict-related articles. PhilKnight (talk) 22:38, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

I agree that the word broadly is the only way this would be applicable and its possible that I'm misunderstanding or over-reaching what the ArbCom meant by that decision; part of my consideration here was several parties comments (some unvinvolved) that indicated the incident the article describes is still a point of contention between Arabs and Jews and that the current dispute on the article seems to fall squarely on those lines. It seems that there is a division among scholars about the actual events and who was a fault; the current edit warring and incivil behavior stems from the two parties who were warned taking the side of one set of scholars or another and making this article their battleground to hash out those differences. Shell 00:31, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

I do not see how this article would fall under the Palestine-Israel article restriction. "Broadly" has its limits, and this historical dispute is certainly out scope. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 03:06, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

The ArbCom case was P-I disputes. Even broadly interpreted, I do not believe that should include the superset of all Jewish-Muslim disputes. While there is a strong correlation between positions of editors in contentious Palestinian-Israeli articles and corresponding positions in contentious Jewish-Muslim articles, to extend the arbcom remedy to the latter would be overreaching in my understanding of both the spirit and letter of the arbcom judgement. -- Avi (talk) 14:42, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

What would be the damage in broadly interpreting the ruling? From my point of view, if there is disruption on an article that might fall under the ArbCom case, then it makes sense to use the case's ruling as a tool with which to help restore stability. This is a good thing. If we make a too narrow interpretation of the ruling though, then what? Take the long view here. If we say that no the case's restrictions don't apply, then it decreases the authority that uninvolved administrators have in an area of dispute, and sets the stage for a conflict that may have to escalate through the various stages of dispute resolution until it too can be an ArbCom case that takes months of time, to come up with effectively the same decision that the original case already did: "Disruptive editors should be told not to disrupt, and uninvolved administrators should use their best judgment to take actions to ensure the smooth functioning of the project." So why waste the time to quibble about exact wording, when we're talking about a very general sanction in the first place? If there were a specific remedy, such as, "This article cannot be edited for 90 days", then it might make sense to debate the finer points of which articles apply. But a general remedy such as "Uninvolved administrators can use their best judgment to restore order", isn't something that we should even really need to debate about. --Elonka 17:02, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

Topical rulings have to have boundaries, or else one could conceivably extend them to any topic on Misplaced Pages. The usual kinds of remedies can deal with the issue at this particular article, no need to invoke the I-P remedies. Jayjg 01:36, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

If there is disruption on the article, it must be dealt with just like any other disruption. No evidence has been presented so far that the subject of this article is relevant to the current Israeli-Palestinian conflict. Beit Or 17:14, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

(<-)Elonka, disruption needs to be handled in the proper way, which in this case would appear to be sans any "extra" gravity lent by indirectly applying an ArbCom ruling. The ARbCom ruling seems to allow for an acceleration of the remedies applied, for example year-long blocks and article/topic bans are expressly mentioned, and these should not be applied to "regular" disruption in Jewish-Muslim disputes, when there is still hope that much lighter and shorter remedies may result in the defusing of the situation. Of course regular remedies and protective measures should be applied as per ANY article in the wiki, but the enhanced measures allowed for in I/P articles should not directly apply here in my understanding of the ruling. -- Avi (talk) 17:24, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

I agree with Avi; Jewish-Muslim disputes are not automatically Israel-Palestine disputes. This article is about the former, not the latter. The uses of incidents surrounding the Banu Qurayza tribe to boster specific positions in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict are done in retrospect, and don't actually signal any real connection between what happened then and the present-day conflict. -- tariqabjotu 19:48, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

Though it's probably impolitic for me to disagree with my mediator, I have to agree as well - a Jewish-Muslim dispute in the 7th century is not part of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, which began at the earliest, in the early 20th century. Jayjg 01:36, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

Nah, you can disagree with anyone on Misplaced Pages, that's half the fun. Looks like the general feeling here is that this particular article falls outside the scope, though I would like to address one point Avi made. The point behind informing these editors of the case was not to speed up sanctions or avoid the bureaucratic process (though seriously, why wouldn't you when it improves Misplaced Pages?) but to lend more weight to my warnings that their specific behavior has been to arbcom before and was sanctioned. I did not follow up the notification with any kind of restriction nor try to apply any remedy and in fact, in cases where I've seen this arbitration ruling being used, I don't find that the norm is to apply long restrictions as Avi implies.

I think the most interesting part of all this is that simply notifying these editors who have been edit warring and generally incivil for more than 6 months now caused them to suddenly stop edit warring and be civil to each other. I wonder if something more formal and spelled out seems more "official" than typical friendly warnings and that's why it seems to work in cases where other things aren't working? Anyways, I appreciate all the opinions and the clarification that the Arb case isn't really about Arab-Israeli relations, but more about the specific disputes in the last century. If anyone who's more knowledgeable about the disputes surrounding this article or the Israel-Palestine disputes wants to leave some pointers on my talk page, or even point me at some good reading, I would greatly appreciate that as well. Shell 02:10, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

Shell, I did not mean to imply that you or anyone abused the sanctions. However, I am worried about "sanction creep," especially in entire tracts of articles that tend to engender responses that are more emotional than logical. The fact that I-P articles may be approached by admins with the ArbCom sanctions in their back pocket does afford the admin decision more weight—"ArbCom" is a scary word after all. This is also why invoking it in other areas will, at least initially, have a greater effect. However, overusing it, especially where it is not directly applicable, has its own slew of problems, chief of which is desensitization. The usual response to desensitization is an increase in severity, and we start a vicious cycle that ends up with someone being banned. Where ArbCom expressly authorized suh actions and the potential fallout is one thing, but allowing it to creep into other areas, even if the players may be the same, is dangerous in my opinion. Finally, while the above is an argument as to why the I-P sanctions should not be extended, the simple facts are that we do not have the right, in my opinion, to extend an ArbCom ruling beyond its bounds without asking for clarification, and as was pointed out above, the events of this article predate the Israeli-Palestinian issue by a number of centuries. Of course, you have my apologies if you feel I misrepresented your actions or position on the issue. Thank you. -- Avi (talk) 14:12, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

If I am allowed let me also comment on the matter. I did raise my objection on Shell's talk page and got no satisfying answer, not even to my question where I can ask for an official review of this action. But thanks to Beit Or's insistence, this now has been sorted out here. Thanks to all involved in solving this.

Let me also note that I was not involved in any editwar about Palestine issues, that I can't see how the BQ article ever fell under that issue, that the inclusion of me and BS did not help Misplaced Pages in any way. There was no incivility and hardly any reverting before the notification. Shell's intervention, after initial misunderstandings, certainly helped a lot but not this action that was under review here.

So again, thanks to everyone. No hard feelings to Shell. Str1977 16:09, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

I'm guessing that you didn't look very hard at my talk page where I answered your questions and twice, I indicated precisely where to go to bring this up if you were unhappy. Its really disappointing to see you come here and claim that you haven't been edit warring or being incivil - it takes nothing more than a quick glance at the article history and your block log (and talk history) to see that you're not being completely honest here. Please understand that regardless of whether or not your behavior falls under this particular ruling, this does not give you (or anyone else) license to return to edit warring and personal attacks and you may find yourself placed under other sanctions or even blocked if those behaviors resume. There's been a lot of progress in resolving the disputes on the article, so please, lets continue working in that direction Shell 17:48, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

"Its really disappointing to see you come here and claim that you haven't been edit warring or being incivil." Only that is not what I wrote. Please do not misrepresent my posting. My block I still consider under false accusations. I don't need your threats. Str1977 19:55, 18 June 2008 (UTC)