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Revision as of 02:30, 30 June 2008 editGRBerry (talk | contribs)16,708 edits →Move to close: not ready to close← Previous edit Revision as of 02:38, 30 June 2008 edit undoRisker (talk | contribs)Edit filter managers, Autopatrolled, Checkusers, Oversighters, Administrators28,335 edits →Move to close: support closing per jossiNext edit →
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*I'm staying out of the discussion, and could if this was ready close it. However, I don't think it is ready. It will be ready to close when one of the following statements is true: 1) there is a consensus of uninvolved editors and admins about the future course of action, or 2) discussion has died away after an adequate discussion period (which will not be before July for this item), or 3) VK has been blocked long enough that a significant fraction of administrative commentators believe he should be immediately unblocked. If you think there is a consensus about the future course of action, you should be able to positively describe that conensus, not merely say there is no consensus for option "X" - that option X is not consensus is certainly not evidence that consensus exists. ] 02:30, 30 June 2008 (UTC) *I'm staying out of the discussion, and could if this was ready close it. However, I don't think it is ready. It will be ready to close when one of the following statements is true: 1) there is a consensus of uninvolved editors and admins about the future course of action, or 2) discussion has died away after an adequate discussion period (which will not be before July for this item), or 3) VK has been blocked long enough that a significant fraction of administrative commentators believe he should be immediately unblocked. If you think there is a consensus about the future course of action, you should be able to positively describe that conensus, not merely say there is no consensus for option "X" - that option X is not consensus is certainly not evidence that consensus exists. ] 02:30, 30 June 2008 (UTC)
*Support closing per Jossi. Let's look at the chronology. In real life, someone Vintagekits knows dies. This person has an article on Misplaced Pages. VK, as he has done in the past (for example, when a Misplaced Pages editor involved in editing The Troubles passed away), clears his pages and posts a "RIP" message, linking to the WP article. He notes that there is no redirect from one of the names the WP article's subject is commonly known by, and creates the redirect. (That's not exactly editing an article, it's such a routine task for experienced editors that it comes as second nature.) When he is told that the way in which he has linked his friend's name could breach the editing restrictions, he immediately modifies the link. He doesn't argue about it. He has been remorseful on his talk page. It's doubtful that anyone considered routine encyclopedic maintenance such as redirects as being problematic when developing the editing restrictions - either VK or those who wrote up the restrictions. Clearly, that will not happen again. ] (]) 02:38, 30 June 2008 (UTC)


={{anchor|restoc}}Resolved= ={{anchor|restoc}}Resolved=

Revision as of 02:38, 30 June 2008

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Edit this section for new requests

User VintageKits breaking terms of probation?

Copied from WP:ANI...... Dendodge .. Talk 15:11, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

Vintagekits' edit here referring to a murder carried out as part of the Troubles as an "honourable deed" seems to be a blatant violation of item 8 of his probation: "For the three month trial, he will not make any reference or comment anywhere on Misplaced Pages (in article, talk, image or project space, edit summaries or via links off-site) concerning The Troubles."

I attempted to ask Vintagekits about this directly on his talk page to make sure I hadn't somehow misunderstood the intent of the comment (although it seems crystal clear to me) however he deleted my question and flat out refused to respond to it in a civil manner leaving me with no other option but to come here as per the terms of his probation. -- ExNihilo (talk) 14:13, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

Technically, userspace isn't mentioned in the item - but it does say anywhere on Misplaced Pages and in edit summaries and, as such, I support some form of punishment...... Dendodge .. Talk 14:16, 28 June 2008 (UTC)
For reference: Vintagekits (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log), warnings and responses (see the intermediate revisions)...... Dendodge .. Talk 14:19, 28 June 2008 (UTC)
To be exact: warning,removal by VK (with accusation of sockpuppetry),revert by EN,removal by VK,revert by EN,uncivil removal by VK,VK warning EN about 3RR...... Dendodge .. Talk 14:28, 28 June 2008 (UTC)
Referring to a murder as "pest control/honourable deed" is really out of line, probation or not this is actionable. The fact that it is in userspace does not make a shred of difference. 1 != 2 14:23, 28 June 2008 (UTC)
Why the "sic"? DuncanHill (talk) 14:30, 28 June 2008 (UTC)
It means quoted as it was, despite the spelling. See sic. 1 != 2 15:08, 28 June 2008 (UTC)
Get off yer high horses - the man just died today have a bit of frickin respect!--Vintagekits (talk) 14:32, 28 June 2008 (UTC)
Please remember WP:CIVIL ('frickin' can be seen as unnecessary bad language)...... Dendodge .. Talk 14:35, 28 June 2008 (UTC)
Are you for real?--Vintagekits (talk) 14:37, 28 June 2008 (UTC)
(ec)And why don't you show some respect for the man Crip murdered - calling him a 'pest' and his murder an 'honourable deed' will make his family feel great won't it?...... Dendodge .. Talk 14:38, 28 June 2008 (UTC)
Yes, I'm real...... Dendodge .. Talk 14:39, 28 June 2008 (UTC)
Re-educate me - Vk wasn't allowed to comment on the Troubles at his own page? GoodDay (talk) 18:04, 28 June 2008 (UTC)
Correct - he's not allowed to mention them anywhere on Misplaced Pages, much less insult a murder victim and call the horrendous crime against them honourable pest control...... Dendodge .. Talk 18:07, 28 June 2008 (UTC)
If the summary of the ruling from the current version of his user page is right, and I'm assuming here it is, the above statement is not entirely accurate. The full quote of number 8 is "he will not make any reference or comment anywhere on Misplaced Pages (in article, talk, image, or project space, edit summaries or via links off-site) concerning The Troubles." While that statement does include the statement "anywhere in Misplaced Pages", it then goes on to itemize several areas, not including user page, which in context at least implies that the definition of "anywhere in Misplaced Pages" being used here does not necessarily include his own userpage. However, it might be possible to ask for a clarification from ArbCom itself regarding this, if for whatever reason the editor is not banned permanently as a result of this matter. John Carter (talk) 19:16, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

What was the probation for? to stop VK editing in a disruptive manner and to stay away from Troubles articles - and that I think he has done.--Domer48 (talk) 12:05, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

Block and ban proposal

This is a clear probation violation. Item 10 thereof (10. If he breaks the terms of these conditions, in any way whatsoever, he will be banned from editing indefinitely.) calls for a ban from wiki. I've blocked him and propose the ban be invoked. — Rlevse • Talk • 14:41, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

His response on his talk page was "You are joking right!?--Vintagekits (talk) 14:42, 28 June 2008 (UTC)" — Rlevse • Talk • 14:46, 28 June 2008 (UTC)
Re above, no I'm not joking. I totally agree with this stmt from above "Referring to a murder as "pest control/honourable(sic) deed" is really out of line, probation or not this is actionable. The fact that it is in userspace does not make a shred of difference. 1 != 2 14:23, 28 June 2008 (UTC)" — Rlevse • Talk • 14:48, 28 June 2008 (UTC)
Good call - I fully endorse a ban...... Dendodge .. Talk 14:50, 28 June 2008 (UTC)
I'm about to endorse, but is this also a violation, creating a redirect to an article that he's banned from editing? D.M.N. (talk) 14:51, 28 June 2008 (UTC)
As it's related to The Troubles, yes, I would have to say. — Rlevse • Talk • 14:54, 28 June 2008 (UTC)
What are we running here? what's our core business? Is it producing a encyclopaedia or is it running a virtual rest home for people who cannot get along with others ? At this stage, the sheer amount of time he takes up, clearly outweighs his value to us in performing our core business. --Allemandtando (talk) 14:52, 28 June 2008 (UTC)
I'll take that as a ban endorsement. — Rlevse • Talk • 14:54, 28 June 2008 (UTC)
You Sure can and let's make sure of that - endorse - his prohibition is clear and explicit - and that edit is clearly going to create wikidrama around his prohibition. I have seen no signs that he suffers from any form of mental deficit that means he cannot understand his prohibition and therefore I can only conclude he made such an edit because he likes the drama. --Allemandtando (talk) 14:57, 28 June 2008 (UTC)
  • It's hard to understand what VK was thinking when he made that edit to his user space. He had to know that that was obviously a violation of his agreed probation terms. The community gave him a last chance and he's just thrown it back into the community's face. I endorse the indef block. It will be interesting to see how ArbCom react to this--Cailil 15:02, 28 June 2008 (UTC)
Copied to Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/Arbitration enforcement, make all further comments there...... Dendodge .. Talk 15:09, 28 June 2008 (UTC)
The community set clear standards, which were not obeyed. Enough is enough. Endorse. 1 != 2 15:10, 28 June 2008 (UTC)
  • Endorse The trail failed. In that VK cleared his userspace of previous content when posting the comment it appears that he was aware that his tenure was likely to be ended by his action. LessHeard vanU (talk) 15:17, 28 June 2008 (UTC)
  • Endorse. The effect that breaching the terms would have was clear from the outset and I see no way that he could have felt that either the redirect (terms 1 & 4, and the topic ban at the end) or the user page message (term 8) was within them. Pfainuk talk 15:19, 28 June 2008 (UTC)
  • Comment - I've advised the editor in question of this discussion. Also, I should note, I have myself no previous history with the subject or real substantive existing knowledge of the matters under discussion. Regarding the edit to his user page, the subject of discussion has recently made a comment here indicating that it had not occurred to him that comments on his user page were necessarily within the scope of the arbcom ruling. In all honesty, considering comments and userboxes on other user pages, I have to say that I can see an argument here, particularly considering it was in response to a message which at least to me seems to tacitly say that the matter would be resolved and no further action taken if the concern were addressed. I can't address the matter of the redirect above, not being sufficiently familiar with the rules regarding such things myself, but I cannot myself endorse a ban based on the user page comments which have apparently since been removed. John Carter (talk) 15:55, 28 June 2008 (UTC)
Just to clarify in case you don't know John, the man that Christopher McWilliams killed was Billy Wright (nicknamed the "King Rat") they were paramilitaries on either side of the troubles in Northern Ireland (Wright led the LVF and MCWilliams was a member of the INLA). In all honesty I see no possible way that VK could ever have considered a post lauding a paramilitary killing to not be about the troubles. And just to be clear the "honorable deed" that VK linked to pest control is a reference to Wright's nickname--Cailil</(font> 16:04, 28 June 2008 (UTC)
  • I actually brought up the exact same concern on Vintagekits' talk page several minutes prior to John's post - Vintagekits' response to that was to revert the edit and accuse me of being a sockpuppet (of who I don't know). The exact history of edits is detailed in Dendodge's post above. Vintagekits certainly didn't seem to care about his infraction when I brought it up, it was only when an administrator made the same remark that Vintagekits became compliant (by which time I'd already posted this on the AN/I board). -- ExNihilo (talk) 16:15, 28 June 2008 (UTC)
  • Endorse, with regret. The community's patience is not infinite, and frankly that appalling edit is actionable even without the probation and associated issues. Black Kite 17:10, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

Disagree. I am no friend of VKs and his political views are juvenile but I would not want him banned for an entry on his own page. On a narrow reading of his probation terms, it does not appear to be a breach. --MJB (talk) 17:27, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

  • Endorse - at the moment Vintagekits is completely unapologetic about what was either an end run around, or a direct breach of, the arbcom restriction. Either way, an indefinite block is appropriate. PhilKnight (talk) 17:40, 28 June 2008 (UTC)
  • Endorse permanent ban. He has been given more chances to bring his editing behaviour up to community standards than any other editor I've ever seen, and yet he still manages to show contempt for the conditions offered by the most recent probation. Enough is enough. — Andrwsc (talk · contribs) 17:59, 28 June 2008 (UTC)
  • Not endorsed - the guy has been excellent since his unblock, and I've been involved in watching him closely and monitoring for transgressions. He's been hard at work bringing articles like Michael Gomez and Wayne McCullough up to GA/FA status. In this case, I honestly think he goofed - he wasn't thinking, and went ahead and did his memorial thing, as he is wont to do. He's done that before. What he wrote, however, the "pest control" bit was sickening, highly provocative, and totally out of order. He doesn't get off the hook on this one, though, and I'm recommending a month-long block, not for punitive purposes but as a Arb-related sanction. Please also note that Vintagekits feels backed into a corner right now and is responding in the usual manner. Pretty soon, he's going to start telling people to 'fuck off', saying that it's 'bullshit', etc. He tends to lash out when he frustrated and feels picked on. Just so new folks know, and maybe cut the guy a little slack - Alison 18:36, 28 June 2008 (UTC)
Personally I feel ambivalent here. Again there is no way - none - the he couldn't have known what he did violated the agreement but we could block him for a month, and reset the trial period. 3 months of the same restrictions starting from July 28th 2008--Cailil 18:56, 28 June 2008 (UTC)
PS in such a situation we may also need to consider extending clause no. 8 of the restrictions to include User space--Cailil 18:58, 28 June 2008 (UTC)
From his talk page, "I didnt know that the comment I made on my userpage was allowed - honestly I didnt. When User:John asked me to remove it I did straight away - I cant believe I am going to get banned for this especially as I havent edited one political article since my return" - looks like he just slipped up and forgot himself for a minute. Then he was pounced upon and things began to spiral - Alison 19:04, 28 June 2008 (UTC)
If he can say "it wont happen again" and understand why we have a problem with it then I'd support alteration of the block length. That is on condition his editing restriction's clock is reset and starts off again after being unblocked--Cailil 19:12, 28 June 2008 (UTC)
See here - Alison 19:43, 28 June 2008 (UTC)
  • Comment I thought he was going to stick to boxing articles. I said if he removed the offending matter from his user page I would leave it at that, so I will keep my word and refrain from endorsing the ban. If he is banned he has nobody to blame but himself. --John (talk) 18:38, 28 June 2008 (UTC)
    • Comment After having spoken with VK; I'm not overly convinced with preventing an editor from commenting on his own page (no matter what the topic). GoodDay (talk) 18:44, 28 June 2008 (UTC)
  • Comment - Could someone arrange to do that transclusion thing that allows VK to respond on his talk page and have his answers come up in this thread? It's a little beyond my technical know-how. Risker (talk) 18:43, 28 June 2008 (UTC)
  • Comment: This obviously was a serious error in judgment and most of us may disagree strongly with his opinions, but considering "As soon as John raised the concern that he thought it would breach the probation I removed the comment" I'm not sure that we need to indef ban for this incident. He does appear to be trying to abide by the probation. Shell 19:05, 28 June 2008 (UTC)
    • Comment I'm concerned about condition #8 of VK's probation (which he's accused of breaching). I find that 'condition #8' is vague; it doesn't say both public & Vk's page is off limits -doesn't make the distinction-. GoodDay (talk) 19:10, 28 June 2008 (UTC)
  • Not endorsed - recommend Alison's solution. It should be noted, however, that VK is a POV warrior, and I don't believe he didn't know better (he seems to continue to push the envelope until he gets blocked, then say "oops"). However, on the stipulation that the probation be extended for a period of an additional 3 months. The Evil Spartan (talk) 19:14, 28 June 2008 (UTC)
  • Not endorsed Yep, it was a stupid thing to do, and in the circumstances, if it had been me, I would have asked one of my mentors before posting. That said, he's stuck to the terms of his probation very well till now. Personally, per Cailil and Alison, I'd adjust his probation term #8 to explicitly include user pages, and restart the clock on his probation. Bastun 19:15, 28 June 2008 (UTC)
I agree. Modify term #8 and reset the probation - Alison 19:43, 28 June 2008 (UTC)
  • Endorse ban per Allison. Her own commentary, while not supporting the ban, makes it clear he's not the kind of editor we need to be tolerating here. But, a seriously long block might is better than nothing, so that's my second choice. Friday (talk) 19:18, 28 June 2008 (UTC)
  • Comment- this is what happends when admins allow users who support terrorism and murder to freely edit, and then punish and bully those who oppose them. I am surprised he lasted this long without some outrage or another. Astrotrain (talk) 19:28, 28 June 2008 (UTC)
  • Not endorsed - for ban, but do endorse resetting the probation clock for three months from today, under the same terms, as per Alison and Cailil above. John Carter (talk) 19:43, 28 June 2008 (UTC)
  • Not endorsed I guess it is a case of VKs frustration at being unable to actually edit the article that leads to this. I also note that all those running to block and endorse the block of VK in the beginning have not edited the article (and it needed it for grammar etc), were making no effort to add him to Deaths in 2008 et al. Some people prefer drama to actual editing, it seems. Thanks, SqueakBox 16:31, 28 June 2008 (UTC)
IMO a week long block would be appropriate but a longer one let alone an indef block is completely OTT. Thanks, SqueakBox 15:50, 28 June 2008 (UTC) (from AN)
Agree. Especially worrying here is that the nature of the comment (a perfectly valid view IMHO) appears to be a factor in the eyes of some; rather than whether or not this breaches the "conditions" and if so was that clear to Vk. Folk need to park their political POV when assessing this. Sarah777 (talk) 16:10, 28 June 2008 (UTC)
  • I agree with what most of Friday and Allemandtando say, we put up with far too much here. Last I checked, userpages were part of "anywhere on Misplaced Pages" and the edit may also violate term number 6 (that's a little more questionable as it would need to be determined if it was "seriously" offensive) but arguing that userpages don't count as "anywhere on Misplaced Pages" because they weren't explicitly mentioned is just silly. Mr.Z-man 20:31, 28 June 2008 (UTC)
  • Comment If we're going to nit-pick and wikilawyer about the phrasing of clause #8 and whether or not user talk space is included, how about this edit in the main article space, where he created a redirect to the McWilliams article? Without dispute, that would be a violation of clause #8 #1 if we're looking for technicalities. The point is that Vintagekits cannot stay away from Irish political articles, and he cannot refrain from making inappropriate comments. — Andrwsc (talk · contribs) 20:41, 28 June 2008 (UTC)
He's done this sort of thing before, said he won't do it again, so how do we know he won't. He's had multiple chances and blown every one. He also seems to fail to understand the callousness of what he said. He knew the terms of his probation and keep pushing the limits to see what he can get away with. He violated the terms and terms clearly say a ban is what the result is. A three-month probation obviously isn't getting his attention. So what will? More probation? I don't. He's not very convincing in his sincerity. — Rlevse • Talk • 21:09, 28 June 2008 (UTC)
Well Billy Wright was hardly a nice chap himself, I am afraid. I think VK thought this was outside the probation conditions, hence something like a week is a correct block but an indef is completely OTT and generally disruptive to the encyclopedia. Thanks, SqueakBox 21:11, 28 June 2008 (UTC)
If there were no probation in question, maybe, but the probation terms are very clear-violation=ban. — Rlevse • Talk • 21:19, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

I endorse the ban. DustiSPEAK!! 17:08, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

I endorse a ban as well, his comments above certainly didn't help his case. Mr.Z-man 17:34, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

Honestly... putting that on your userpage violates the probation terms (yes, the terms don't specify userspace, but that's a technicality). You agreed that if you breach them, you get banned. Endorse Alex Muller 17:54, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

The fact is, he knows that his views on this subject are controversial; he knows he's not supposed to inflame things about them; and he did something that was clearly designed to provoke a reaction. Endorse. Dr. eXtreme 17:57, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

  • Not endorse: What can one say? Yet again Vintagekits proves himself to be his own worst enemy. I fought hard for him to be allowed to return under strict provisions. I thought they has been fully explained to him, clearly not. The only thing I can say in his defence is that this does seem a minor transgression, and I know that he though it was OK to make the edit in what appears to be grey area Bearing in mind his many good edits and attempts to land his first FA, he has proven his potential. So perhaps the clock could be reset. Giano (talk) 21:38, 28 June 2008 (UTC)
  • Not endorsed I can't believe I'm agreeing with SqueakBox, but he and Alison have a point. VK has been really well behaved recently and I think we shouldn't be so hasty to kick him off again. --Dragon695 (talk) 21:33, 28 June 2008 (UTC)
His probation did not say "If you behave well...we'll ignore the terms of the probation or if it's considered minor". It says a violation=ban. The terms also said "any area of wikipedia", and user pages are part of wiki. — Rlevse • Talk • 22:00, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

Comments like this (see his talk page) are not helping him: "Sickening to you - not to others - the man is a hero to many for killing "King Rat" the sectarian bigot and murderer. Crip is known as "the rat-catcher" by many hence the reference to pest control but if you have known what you were talking about before you jumped in then none of your drama causing would have been needed. John asked me to remove the comment and I did and that should have been the end of it but you have been gagging to block me for weeks and didnt need much of an excuse. --Vintagekits (talk) 21:20, 28 June 2008 (UTC)"...Not to mention the email he sent me. — Rlevse • Talk • 22:17, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

  • Totally object, let alone endorse. The comments about the sentiments expressed being "outside the pale" on Wiki are pure POV and make the motives of the editors making those statements suspect. The only issues are:
  • Was Vk in breach? - Questionable
  • If so, did he realise he was? - Doubtful
  • Is this (on his own talkpage) serious enough for a permanent ban? - Absolutely not.
Sarah777 (talk) 22:22, 28 June 2008 (UTC)
Seriousness of the violation is not part of his probation terms, it says any violation=ban. His terms said anywhere on wiki and user pages are part of wiki. And yes, he did violate his terms. I wonder how the family deceased would feel this is minor. — Rlevse • Talk • 22:35, 28 June 2008 (UTC)
The family of which deceased? Crips or Billy Wright? Or maybe Wright's victims? See - this type of comment is why this call for a ban must be dismissed forthwith. It is based on political POV. In my opinion. Sarah777 (talk) 22:52, 28 June 2008 (UTC)
Have you read the article on Billy Wright. he wasn't exactly a saint and it is not for wikipedia to take sides in any The Troubles dispute. Thanks, SqueakBox 22:42, 28 June 2008 (UTC)
What's in that article is not germane to the issue. What is germane is VK's postings, that they violate his terms--that's almost unanimous--, and that the terms in such a case call for a ban. — Rlevse • Talk • 22:48, 28 June 2008 (UTC)
You really need to lighten up and be flexibkle here. remeber iAR is about what is good for the prioject and judging VKs intemntions and what is best for the porject and indef block is completely inappropriate. And wikipedia is not subject to law and strictly legal interpretaions in the way government law is, it is there to help make the encyclopedia work. Thanks, SqueakBox 22:52, 28 June 2008 (UTC)
What's the purpose of probation and sanctions if we're not going to enforce them? We may as well turn wiki over to the disruptors and POV pushers. This is last in a long line of problems with this user. — Rlevse • Talk • 23:17, 28 June 2008 (UTC)
You're right Sarah777, POV doesn't come into it, it's simply down to the facts. And they seem to be quite clear:
  • Was Vk in breach?/If so, did he realise he was? Yes, he referenced violence during The Troubles knowing full well that a condition of his ban was to not post about the Troubles anywhere on Misplaced Pages.
  • Is this (on his own talkpage) serious enough for a permanent ban? You don't seem to understand the concept of 'probation' - the point is that this is apparently just the last in a long line of indiscretions. The entire point of the probation with it's explicit rules and explicitly having a single repercussion for any deviation from those rules was to signify that any such breach however small would be the straw that broke the camel's back. Yes, if you take any single thing on its own then of course it won't correspond to an indefinite ban, the probation seems to have existed to try and break a pattern of behaviour. Clearly it hasn't worked. Failing to follow through on the rules of the probation now would only serve to undermine all of that and encourage any would-be miscreants since they'll know that no matter what terms are placed against someone to prevent bad behaviour, WP will back down when push comes to shove and every 'last-final-ultimate chance' will be rolled over again and again and again. I was vaguely aware of some of Vintagekits' issues on WP but I must admit I've looked back and it's truly shocking how many "last chances" he's already had.
-- ExNihilo (talk) 22:55, 28 June 2008 (UTC)
Having read the thread above I suggest that anyone who finds the comments unacceptable, (as distinct from disagreeable), should take no further part in this debate as they are clearly unable to abide by the Wiki principle of WP:NPOV. I saw this demonstrated by a variety of editors during my own block . The conflation of my views on The Troubles, with my views on Anglosphere POV, with incivility, reverting a totally unrelated area and alleged breach of Arbcom Rulings would have been a hoot has I not been the subject of so much bile, confusion and misinformation. We need to start dealing with these issues with much greater clarity and logic and common sense. And from a position of clinical respect for WP:NPOV. Sarah777 (talk) 22:58, 28 June 2008 (UTC)
ExNihilo, I think your comments point to inadequacies in wikipedia's way of dealing with political disputes and editors and not to do directly with VK. Thanks, SqueakBox 23:00, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

It's amazing how so many people who have never been on AE before are showing up here. And Sarah, I think anyone who finds his comments acceptable should cease discussion here. — Rlevse • Talk • 23:14, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

What is AE? And your basis for your statement (in Wiki policy) is...what? (As for his comments I don't just find them acceptable I fully agree with them). Sarah777 (talk) 23:31, 28 June 2008 (UTC)
AE is the page you're on, Arbitration Enforcement, WP:AE. And glad you admit you find glorifying murder acceptable, ergo admitting your bias here. — Rlevse • Talk • 23:42, 28 June 2008 (UTC)
Am I the only person who finds the glorifying of murderkilling disruptive? This would warrant a block even if it was not a user with such a troubled past and a direct prohibition from that subject. Come on folks, enough is enough. 1 != 2 23:21, 28 June 2008 (UTC)
You may be the only person who reckons that welcoming the execution of a sectarian mass-murderer is "glorifying of murder". I don't really know. But I'd personally find attacking someone for expressing a positive view of such an action disruptive, enough being enough etc. (Really - best to leave the political POV and moral outrage at home - it has no place here). Sarah777 (talk) 23:28, 28 June 2008 (UTC)
Oddly enough, most people would find a comment expressing a opinion on a murder as "pest control" sickening regardless of who it was about - I would've endorsed some sort of ban here whether it was VK or one of Lauder and his chums. Since you actually agree with the comment, it is clear that it is you that whose failure of WP:NPOV means you should cease commenting here. Black Kite 14:02, 29 June 2008 (UTC)
Since when is the userspace the appropriate place to express political views? When banned from that very subject by the community? Since when is linking to "pest control" in reference to a killing a positive view? Such opinions belong on a blog. 1 != 2 23:31, 28 June 2008 (UTC)
And you are not expressing a political view - right here?!!!! Sarah777 (talk) 23:36, 28 June 2008 (UTC)
The only view I made was "Such opinions belong on a blog", not really a political view. 1 != 2 12:59, 29 June 2008 (UTC)
Ya's may aswell end this little argument, it's only gonna be a stalemate. GoodDay (talk) 23:39, 28 June 2008 (UTC)
Nope, I don't reckon it's a stalemate - we are both expressing political views but only one of us seems to be aware of it! (Back to the ole embedded Anglo-pov thingy again I guess). Sarah777 (talk) 23:43, 28 June 2008 (UTC)
An anglo POV I, SB, pretty broadly support, but that does not mean I do not want those who think differently, like VK and 777, to be unable to edit. Thanks, SqueakBox 00:22, 29 June 2008 (UTC)
  • Endorse The terms were clear and a last ditch effort, he broke them and so the consequence is pretty clear. A promise that he will not break his promises again is fairly worthless. It was tried, it failed. Lets move on to better things. EDIT: If there is a view that the cost of keeping VK around is worth the gain, then at the least we should look at lengthening his probation rather than a short period ban? A short period ban would be punitive and gain nothing. Lengthening the restrictions on the troubles seem like a sensible choice, though I would say at this point you just ban him from mentioning the troubles full stop, indef. Just block him from editing those articles and getting involved in trouble discussions and be done with it. Heck, providing admin were willing to police it, I'd even prefer such a lenghtening of the topicban instead of an indef ban. Narson (talk) 23:36, 28 June 2008 (UTC) Edited: Narson (talk) 00:02, 29 June 2008 (UTC)
  • Comment I'm not going to say endorse or not endorse as I'm not totally clear what I would be endorsing or not, but the facts of the issue seem fairly plain to me: 1) Vintagekits has been on good behaviour since his return and has done some excellent work in article space. 2) Vintagekits cannot have been unaware that the comment in his Userspace was provocative, disruptive and totally in violation of the spirit of his parole, whatever the technicalities of the case may be. 3) McWilliams and Wright's actions during their lives are totally irrelevant to this discussion - no matter how much Vintagekits liked McWilliams and disliked Wright, he knows full well that a comment such as the one he made is inappropriate from any user and especially inflammatory from someone with his block and edit history. 4) Long term editing bans imposed on Vintagekits have twice failed before and are unlikely to succeed in this instance. On the basis of this, I endorse Alison's suggestion of a short week/month ban and a reset of the probation clock to the day of his return. --Jackyd101 (talk) 00:12, 29 June 2008 (UTC)
  • Comment. I would like clarification of the comment above: Not to mention the email he sent me. — Rlevse • Talk • 22:17, 28 June 2008 (UTC) before offering an opinion. Rockpocket 00:34, 29 June 2008 (UTC)
  • Endorse – He made a reference to The Troubles, thereby breaking Stipulation 10 of his probation, which nowhere mentions giving leeway if there is a precedent of good behavior. We're debating whether or not he violated the terms of his probation, not if the community approves of banning him. —Animum (talk) 00:52, 29 June 2008 (UTC)
Err, no, we are discussing whether to endorse the indef block or not, that is the issue at hand. Thanks, SqueakBox 00:57, 29 June 2008 (UTC)
Then I suggest that change; this page is for Arbitration enforcement, not attempts at redrafting the conditions that the Arbitration Committee set forth. —Animum (talk) 01:14, 30 June 2008 (UTC)
It was not the arbcom who set the conditions. That was reached by consensus by all interested parties. Thanks, SqueakBox 01:17, 30 June 2008 (UTC)
  • VK was already been banned once under the terms of the RfAR. While that ban was being discussed, he was apparently offered an unblock if he'd agree to very specific terms governing his return.User:Vintagekits/terms The first provision is: He may edit only sporting articles and their associated talk pages... He agreed to those terms, and was unblocked. The terms say, in bold lettering, that he will be banned indefinitely if there is any violation, "in any way whatsoever". While still under that agreement VK broke it by creating a redirect concerning a figure in the Troubles and by postings on his user page. If the user did not have the contribution hsitory of KV, if he had not already been blocked so many times, if he had not agree to be blocked indefinitely for any violation whatsoever, or if he had shown contrition, then the situation would be different. However, given the entire chain of events and agreements, and weighing the net benefits to the project, I believe that the right course of action is to enforce the indefinite ban that VK agreed to when he was unbanned recently. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 01:23, 29 June 2008 (UTC)
  • Endorse ban ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 01:31, 29 June 2008 (UTC)
  • Endorese ban - after seeing the rest of the discussion and given the additional issue with the creation of the redirect, it doesn't seem that he's going to be able to stay out of the issues voluntarily. Shell 01:42, 29 June 2008 (UTC)
  • Endorse. I have never had any interaction whatsoever with the user in question, nor participated in any way in articles related to the topic(s) for which he was sanctioned, therefore I consider myself to be entirely neutral in this AE. As I see it, the user has clearly violated the explicit and agreed terms of his probation, by creating the redirect page and userpage comment aforementioned. To avoid enforcing the ban because it was his userpage and not mainspace is a thin reed given the all-encompassing nature of the original probation terms. An action in direct violation of probation is altogether different that a problematic edit as an isolated occurrence. To fail to enforce would erode confidence in the entire ArbComm process. JGHowes - 03:07, 29 June 2008 (UTC)
  • I was going to say Endorse, but having read Alison's response, I'm saying Not Endorse, but block until August 1st, 2008. D.M.N. (talk) 07:54, 29 June 2008 (UTC)
  • Not endorsed: Alison summed it up pretty well. Vin loves to edit, and the articles on boxing would be at a loss without him. --Domer48 (talk) 11:41, 29 June 2008 (UTC)
  • Endorse (assuming us normal editor can vote); not solely for the offensive talk page comment; but for the creation of Crip McWilliams, which surely counts as a troubles article. (disclosure: I'm one of those on the other side of the troubles; or rather that's my historical viewpoint.) --Blowdart | 13:39, 29 June 2008 (UTC)
  • Endorse per JGHowes. -- ChrisO (talk) 14:49, 29 June 2008 (UTC)
  • Comment My support for a ban is for a topic ban, not for a total ban from WP. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 16:00, 29 June 2008 (UTC)
  • Endorse - This editor would be no loss, countless hours have been wasted discussing this editors behaviour, time which could have been spent constructively editing wikipedia. Snappy56 (talk) 17:24, 29 June 2008 (UTC)
Comment; I notice that yet more editors are expressing support for a ban based on their POV rather than any breach of any Wiki-policy. This is so reminiscent of my own recent experience - I really do think that such opinions should be disallowed in procedures such as this. It tends to trivialise the whole AE process and undermine its credibility. And they seem incapable of even seeing their pov for what it is - eg Black Kite for example. Also folk who point out that I (who make no bones about it) also have a POV are not understanding the central issue here. WP:NPOV clearly demands that such loaded language and POV be kept out of articles and, indeed, due process such as this. It does not refer to talkpages. Remember the phrase "terrorist" is outlawed in Wiki-articles because it is recognised to be POV-laden and in conflict situations "murder" isn't necessarily a word compatible with WP:NPOV. Just try stating that the US soldiers in Iraq or British soldiers in Afghanistan "murdered" somebody and you'll get a crash course in how "loaded" some folk regard that term. "This editor would be no loss" (by Snappy) is a comment I find in breach of WP:CIVIL and is a judgment on Vk's work in boxing articles - a totally separate issue to what is being discussed here. Again, in my "trial" I had many editors with very skimpy contribution histories and of highly questionable value feeling that the "trial" gave them licence to denigrate me in all sorts of ways unconnected to my alleged crimes. These type of comments should also alert the community to the motives and POV of the hardliners calling for Vk's head. Sarah777 (talk) 21:09, 29 June 2008 (UTC)
Making bad faith accusations doesn't help Sarah, and is exactly my concern for these things. We don't need more editors in trouble over this. Narson (talk) 21:27, 29 June 2008 (UTC)
I'm not making "bad faith" accusations. (1) I have identified issues raised by editors here that should play no part in these proceedings (2) I said certain editors were not able to recognise their own POV; that isn't an accusation of bad faith (3) I have identified what I beleive is a clear breach of WP:CIVIL (4) I think 'motive' is very important to consider in these type of politically charged situations and the discussion here certainly indicates to me that much of the endorsement of the banning of Vk is based on political POV which should play no part here - I thought I have demonstrated that clearly in my arguments? Sarah777 (talk) 21:43, 29 June 2008 (UTC)
That others have POV is a given. Assuming others have made their decisions based purely on that POV and thus dismissing them does seem rather bad faith. Leave it up to whoever has the unpleasant task of deciding on this. I'm sure we can all find something to edit rather than this. Heck, we could always do with more Pokemon articles! Narson (talk) 21:59, 29 June 2008 (UTC)
At least I admitted mine; can you honestly claim that you have no POV in this matter; given your background and upbringing? I don't mind being accused of POV, however I find your attempt to paint yourself whiter that white disingenuous. --Blowdart | 23:44, 29 June 2008 (UTC)
IMO, all comments should be removed from this AE case. Leaving just the endorse & no endorse votes in place. That way, there's no room for arguing. GoodDay (talk) 21:47, 29 June 2008 (UTC)
I'd agree that only comments specifically referring to the matter at hand and not irrelevant issues should feature. No comment at all would make the debate rather difficult to evaluate! (We already know that vastly more editors are closer to "mainstream" pov than to Vk's; a simple vote would only appear to confirm that - rather than the merits of the case) Sarah777 (talk) 22:01, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

Arbitrary break

Sarah, rather than get bogged down in the POV issue, lets remain focused on what this discussion is about: whether Vk was in violation of his terms of probation. According to the terms that he willingly signed up to, Term 10: If he breaks the terms of these conditions, in any way whatsoever, he will be banned from editing indefinitely. The community could decide to to implement an alternative consequence at its discretion (and indeed some have made that proposal), but there can be little argument over what the default consequence is. So then, the question is has Vk broke the terms of these conditions, and perhaps also, since it is important to some editors, was this done in a manner that is POV dependent?

  • Term 6: He will not use any obscene, blasphemous, racist, seriously offensive or threatening language. Well, clearly some editors have deemed his comments to be offensive. That is understandable. But it ultimately comes down to a POV.
  • Term 8: He will not make any reference or comment anywhere on Misplaced Pages (in article, talk, image or project space, edit summaries or via links off-site) concerning The Troubles. He clearly made a comment in reference to the Troubles on his user-page. The problem here is that there is a list of qualifiers and that list does not include user-space. That was my oversight, because I drafted that sentence. I certainly intended user-space to be included (which was why it was preceded by "anywhere on Misplaced Pages"). But nevertheless, it comes down to a POV whether or not the absence of it mentioned expressly would mean that this term was broken or not.
  • Term 8: He will not make any reference or comment anywhere on Misplaced Pages (in article, talk, image or project space, edit summaries or via links off-site) concerning The Troubles. Unfortunately, he put the words RIP CRIP in the edit summary of the aforementioned edit. Therefore in doing so he technically did break term 8. No POV issue here.
  • Term 1: He may edit only sporting articles and their associated talk pages, excluding any article with connections to The Irish Troubles. Vk created the redirect Crip McWilliams That is not a sporting article and it clearly has connections to The Irish Troubles: a pretty clear, albeit perhaps minor, violation of term 1 and no POV issue.

So, these are the issues as I see them. Is there any serious doubt that Vk technically broke at least 1 term of his conditions? I can't see how there can be. The question then, I guess, is does the community wish for term 10, which was written to follow automatically, to do just that? Or would they prefer an alternative consequence commensurate with the seriousness of the breach (such as a reset of the parole +/- a lengthy block)? Alternatively, some may prefer no consequence at all to supersede term 10, because they feel it was merely a technicality. This comes down to a personal opinion and appears to be the basis by which people are endorsing or opposing. I am not going to !vote either way, because I tried to stay neutral during the drafting and presentation of these conditions, and thus I would rather try and state the issue under debate without bias one way or the other. Rockpocket 23:28, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

Reset parole terms - agree that it was 'clear' (Term 1), but minor and perhaps accidental breach. Sarah777 (talk) 23:43, 29 June 2008 (UTC)
Accidental? Creating a comment he knows would tweak multiple editors, an edit specifically related to the troubles? If that's accidental then he has serious bad luck. --Blowdart | 23:50, 29 June 2008 (UTC)
If VK had apologized for his actions and said he'd made a mistake then it would be easier to regard this is as an accident. Instead, he has deleted posting on his talk page asking for clarification. He isn't calling it an accident and seems to feel that he was within his rights to do what he did. I see no indication that he would act differently in the future if unbanned (again). If I've overlooked his expressions of remorse please correct me. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 23:57, 29 June 2008 (UTC)
Yes, I think this is a key point. Clearly VK was guilty of an error of judgment, for which he's being - I think rightly - criticised. The question is whether he is willing to take responsibility for his error. Has he done so? -- ChrisO (talk) 01:12, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

The terms did not specify minor/major, but any vio. — Rlevse • Talk • 02:10, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

Move to close

I move to close this report. Clearly there is no consensus for a permanent ban; yes, VK made a stupid mistake but I am sure that by now he will understand that next time he makes such a mistake a permanent ban from WP will be a done deal. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 01:26, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

I'm not sure that is going to work, because Vk is currently indef blocked (which, technically speaking, was the appropriate admin action proscribed by the probation terms.) The question is: is there any consensus that we should consider an alternative course of action. Rockpocket 01:35, 30 June 2008 (UTC)
The only consensus here is that if look at who is not actually involved in the dispute, there is a consensus for the ban. The probation clearly specified a vio=ban, with no leeway. The terms clearly said "anywhere on wiki" and user pages are part of wiki. How he could not understand that is baffling to me. He was obviously on his last chance. This thread is chock full of The Troubles editors from both sides, all but a few of whom have not participated at AE before. — Rlevse • Talk • 02:08, 30 June 2008 (UTC)
Rlevse, it seems that this was a mistake by this user, and he has been making good edits on unrelated articles. I would argue for a second chance here on that basis. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 02:12, 30 June 2008 (UTC)
Explain to me how he misunderstood "anywhere on wiki". His attitude during this hasn't been exemplary either -on and off wiki. I got a less than polite email from him. — Rlevse • Talk • 02:21, 30 June 2008 (UTC)
  • I'm staying out of the discussion, and could if this was ready close it. However, I don't think it is ready. It will be ready to close when one of the following statements is true: 1) there is a consensus of uninvolved editors and admins about the future course of action, or 2) discussion has died away after an adequate discussion period (which will not be before July for this item), or 3) VK has been blocked long enough that a significant fraction of administrative commentators believe he should be immediately unblocked. If you think there is a consensus about the future course of action, you should be able to positively describe that conensus, not merely say there is no consensus for option "X" - that option X is not consensus is certainly not evidence that consensus exists. GRBerry 02:30, 30 June 2008 (UTC)
  • Support closing per Jossi. Let's look at the chronology. In real life, someone Vintagekits knows dies. This person has an article on Misplaced Pages. VK, as he has done in the past (for example, when a Misplaced Pages editor involved in editing The Troubles passed away), clears his pages and posts a "RIP" message, linking to the WP article. He notes that there is no redirect from one of the names the WP article's subject is commonly known by, and creates the redirect. (That's not exactly editing an article, it's such a routine task for experienced editors that it comes as second nature.) When he is told that the way in which he has linked his friend's name could breach the editing restrictions, he immediately modifies the link. He doesn't argue about it. He has been remorseful on his talk page. It's doubtful that anyone considered routine encyclopedic maintenance such as redirects as being problematic when developing the editing restrictions - either VK or those who wrote up the restrictions. Clearly, that will not happen again. Risker (talk) 02:38, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

Resolved

SPA's galore on St Christopher Iba Mar Diop College of Medicine
The following discussion is an archived report. Please do not modify it. Subsequent reports should be made in a new section.
SPAs warned against 1RR per Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/St Christopher#Single-purpose accounts restrained. Article semi-protected to prevent return of new SPAs. No one is currently banned from article; however, Further escalations should be brought back here for remedies as per Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/St Christopher.
  • Relevant case: Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/St Christopher

There have been recurring issues with single-purpose agenda accounts whitewashing this article, which covers a medical school which is considered unaccredited by numerous agencies. The ArbCom remedy provides that single-purpose accounts may be banned from the pages for disruption. Multiple batches of SPA's have been thus banned. Most recently, a brand new batch appeared, working in tandem to remove well-sourced information from the article yet again. I reverted this inappropriate but distressingly familiar editing and notified the accounts in question of the decision. I also chose to place a 1RR/24 hour restriction on each of these sock/meatpuppet accounts as a preliminary step. One of the accounts, Uponleft (talk · contribs), has challenged this. I would like outside attention to review the single-purpose accounts listed here, with an eye toward enforcing the ArbCom restrictions intended to prevent exactly this sort of abuse. MastCell  05:47, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

MastCell's bias shows through with the blatant and incorrect information he has provided here to try and bring about the resolution he desires. The ArbCom remedy provides a ban only for a week for multiple violations and then for a year after five 1-week violations for that specific page. If the accounts listed on the ArbCom page are reviewed you will see multiple accounts indef. banned from all of wikipedia which is not within the scope of the ruling by Arbcom. Most of the information removed from the article was synthesis, speculation and weasel wording. Anyone can easily check that. A significant amount of information was restored that was well sourced and verifiable but was stripped inappropriately at a previous point in time. Is there any proof that the accounts are sock/meatpuppets and not individual editors working by themselves? I believe it is inappropriate to say such things without any proof. I ask that this all be reviewed by uninvolved admins and if appropriate the ruling by Arbcom enforced (to the letter, not an inappropriate interpretation as has been done before). Thank you. Uponleft (talk) 05:58, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

SPAs can be indef banned without an arb ruling, using standard wiki policies. As for the arb ruling, it also says SPAs on this topic can be topic banned. — Rlevse • Talk • 10:35, 29 June 2008 (UTC)
SPAs can be indef banned without an arb ruling ?? I do not thing that this is a correct statement. What are the standard wiki policies you refer to? WP:SPA is a nice essay with some good advice. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 17:25, 29 June 2008 (UTC)
SPAs are usually socks and disruptive socking can be indef'd. Hope this clarifies. — Rlevse • Talk • 18:11, 29 June 2008 (UTC)
Also, the arb ruling, it also says SPAs on this topic can be topic banned, but only if disruptive. So, what we need is evidence of disruption in order to consider arbitration remedies enforcement. Diffs, please. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 17:27, 29 June 2008 (UTC)
  • Comment: I have some familiarity with this case from the OTRS side and I have to agree completely with MastCell here - this series of edits is almost identical to the problematic edits that first brought the Arb case. Note that they're using their older preferred version of the article which conveniently leaves out the overly well sourced paragraph on the multiple organizations that have pointed out their diplomas are bunk - instead, they put in a lengthy, misleading bit about being recognized as an entity by various states - this has absolutely nothing to do with accreditation and simply means they are registered to do business, but it does give the appearance of propriety. Given Uponleft's knowledgeable response above and his reverts to include the same information (with misleading edit summaries), I'd be tempted to indef him as a sock of one of the banned editors. Since Bluestrawsz, Luceey, Serologic, Stapler have been assisting (its the same series of edits and its interesting that they switch between accounts during each series) I see no reason not to ban the lot of them from the article - they are either socks or meatpuppets but very obviously coordinated and yes, whitewashing the article yet again. Shell 17:43, 29 June 2008 (UTC)
One way to curtail disruptive activity by new users, would be to simply place the article in semi-protection. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 17:53, 29 June 2008 (UTC)
Done. -- Avi (talk) 17:57, 29 June 2008 (UTC)
Thanks, Avi. If these SPAs engage in disruptive behavior such as multiple reverts, or adding same material again and again, these accounts could be indef-blocked for disruption. I move to close this report and open a new one if that happened. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 18:01, 29 June 2008 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Bharatveer
The following discussion is an archived report. Please do not modify it. Subsequent reports should be made in a new section.
User blocked for 48 hrs. by [User:Moreschi

Bharatveer is restricted to one revert per page per week (excluding obvious vandalism) and must discuss all reverts. He has reverted twice this week on Martha Nussbaum, the second time without discussion on the article's talk page.

  • original edit:
  • 1st revert:
  • 2nd revert:

Bharatveer has already been blocked once for violating his ArbCom remedy. I can't take action myself here because I have edited Martha Nussbaum recently. --Akhilleus (talk) 14:51, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

Blocked him for 48 hours. The 1RR vio took place on Romila Thapar, though, not Martha Nussbaum. Moreschi (talk) (debate) 16:43, 29 June 2008 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

WP:Age_and_Adminship
The following discussion is an archived report. Please do not modify it. Subsequent reports should be made in a new section.
Information removed.
  • Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Protecting children’s privacy]

I ask that personally-identifiable information, namely the ages of young Wikipedians, be removed and oversighted on the Age and Adminship essay per Remedy 3 of the ruling. Ripberger (talk) 02:59, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

If you e-mail me the diffs that had the information I can delete them, as for oversight, that will have to go to the oversight list. -- Avi (talk) 03:35, 27 June 2008 (UTC)
I have sent the e-mail with the diffs I've seen so far, though I fear there may be more if the editors editing on that page are not counseled as Remedy 3 instructs. Thank you. Ripberger (talk) 04:02, 27 June 2008 (UTC)
 Done - please forward others, if needs be. I was disturbed to note that one of the subjects mentioned had to personally remove references to themselves and their age - Alison 04:19, 27 June 2008 (UTC)
Thanks, Alison. -- Avi (talk) 04:21, 27 June 2008 (UTC)
Thank you both. I'll forward any other diffs I come across to Alison if need be. Ripberger (talk) 04:44, 27 June 2008 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

WP:ARB9/11
The following discussion is an archived report. Please do not modify it. Subsequent reports should be made in a new section.
no action


These diffs show WLRoss (talk · contribs) running the discussion in circles, endlessly arguing in favor of presenting conspiracy theories as something factual: . It's time to invite this editor to work on other areas besides 9/11. Jehochman 14:09, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

The second diff is particularly worrying, because he seems to be arguing that undue weight should be given to the conspiracy theories. I suggest a 1 month topic ban. PhilKnight (talk) 16:01, 25 June 2008 (UTC)
one month sounds good. --DHeyward (talk) 17:43, 25 June 2008 (UTC)
Just a note that this editor has participated in similar discussions at Talk:7 World Trade Center. --Hut 8.5 19:24, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

I read the comments on these diffs, and I do not see how these comments can warrant a topic ban. The discretionary sanctions are to be applied if, despite being warned, that editor repeatedly or seriously fails to adhere to the purpose of Misplaced Pages, any expected standards of behavior, or any normal editorial process. I do not see how these diffs support such an assessment of this user's comments. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 20:20, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

Yes, he was. Still, I do not see anything in these diffs to warrant a topic ban. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 02:04, 26 June 2008 (UTC)
  • Just no. It's not a surprise what Wayne's POV is on the issue, but he certainly isn't disruptive and is highly fairminded about what can be said about conspiracy theories. I say this as someone who has had differences with him in the past, but he's made an honest and concerted effort to make the tone on 9/11 articles better. A topic ban is simply not appropriate. --Haemo (talk) 04:01, 26 June 2008 (UTC)
I challenge Jehochman to show where any of those diffs request conspiracy theories be presented as fact as he claims. Some of the diffs are supporting a request by another editor that a cite be supplied for a claim (while at the same time rejecting his edits) and the rest are in relation to the reliability of a source already in the article. I may have strong views on how to present the articles but of the 911 related edits I have made, better than 90% are still in the articles and this is due solely to the use of the same type of discussions on talk pages that Jehochman wants to ban me for. ARBCom enforcement was meant to stop the more extreme POV pushers not to prevent edits that Jehochman doesn't agree with. Wayne (talk) 04:52, 26 June 2008 (UTC)
I object to the close, so I've unclosed this. "he more extreme POV pushers" you say. I say that the ArbCom decision was intended to stop all POV pushing, both extreme and subtle. If you are editing the article in order to advance conspiracy theories, you need to stop. We do not achieve NPOV by having a scrum and letting the different sides battle until they reach equilibrium. Jehochman 13:23, 26 June 2008 (UTC)
I agree with Jehochman, the ArbCom decision wasn't intended to discriminate against editors who hold a specific view, merely to prevent disruption. PhilKnight (talk) 14:28, 26 June 2008 (UTC)
Close this again with no action taken. The ArbComm is meant to stop all pushing for a point of view other than the neutral point of view. This includes POV pushing by those who think the government explanation is correct. The ArbComm's decision must not be abused to eliminate all input from those who disagree with the government. It should be properly used to deal with those who are disruptive for or against the government explanation. The relevant question is whether Wayne is being disruptive. I've looked at the diffs you offered, I've read the entire talk page, and the talk page Hut8.5 pointed out. He is not. Learn to edit with those who don't fully agree with you.
Wayne wouldn't have to remind editors that citations are needed if they were provided the first time another editor requested them. You'd probably make more progress toward stability with that article if you had topical archives instead of date archives or a talk FAQ that included all sources deemed relevant by consensus. GRBerry 14:13, 26 June 2008 (UTC)
Stating the obvious, a discussion should be closed after it's finished, so the earlier close was inappropriate. Also, the problem of polite pov pushing is complex, and your remark about learning to edit with those who disagree with you was unhelpful. PhilKnight (talk) 14:28, 26 June 2008 (UTC)
GRBerry, I am not a supporter of the government explanation, so please don't mis-characterize me like that. It is not a secret that I dislike our current administration. A bit of clever Googling will uncover my political leanings. The problem here is the appearance of advocacy on behalf of the 9/11 Truth Movement. You can help by watchlisting Controlled demolition hypothesis for the collapse of the World Trade Center. Jehochman 14:35, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

I have to pretty much agree with GRberry. The remedy says "that editor repeatedly or seriously fails to adhere to the purpose of Misplaced Pages," but there is little here other than talk page edits that are civil. I don't see disruption, edit warring, name-calling etc. The statements referred to as "subtle-POV pushing" hardly violate this. Talk page edits are where things are supposed to be discussed first. Unless some hard evidence is shown that shows a violation, I'll be closing this soon. — Rlevse • Talk • 00:16, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

Although I don't think I've ever agreed with this user, he isn't disruptive. I don't think that a ban is warranted. Ice Cold Beer (talk) 01:24, 27 June 2008 (UTC)
Okay, I'm satisfied. Thank you all. Jehochman 01:36, 27 June 2008 (UTC)
Closing — Rlevse • Talk • 01:42, 27 June 2008 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Giovanni33
The following discussion is an archived report. Please do not modify it. Subsequent reports should be made in a new section.
User blocked for a week by Khoi

Giovanni33 is under editing restrictions, such that he cannot revert more than once a week, and must discuss all reversions first. Despite this he has resumed a slow motion edit war on the New antisemitism page, removing an image he dislikes, and modifying the lead to a version he prefers (describing it as a "controversial concept"). As far as I can tell, he hasn't discussed his changes to the wording of the lead in weeks, yet he continues to revert to his version. He was blocked for this on January 8, and has responded by slowing down the pace of his reverts. Reverts include:

As his block log shows, he has perhaps the most lengthy block log of any non-banned editor in Misplaced Pages history, returning from his most recent 72 hour block just this month. I'm requesting a longer block at this point, as the shorter ones don't seem to make an impression, or just lead him to game his restrictions. Jayjg 03:15, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

Upon reviewing the article and its talk page, it appears that Giovanni has made any justification to his last two reverts to the lead since last month. I have blocked him for a week, and made note of this at Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Giovanni33-John Smith's. Khoikhoi 03:58, 25 June 2008 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.