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And lots more. This is looking like a definite non-promotion at the moment. ] ] 16:37, 5 July 2008 (UTC) And lots more. This is looking like a definite non-promotion at the moment. ] ] 16:37, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

*'''Comments''' on images vy ] <sup>]</sup> 18:03, 5 July 2008 (UTC):
**] is replaceable by a free image, such as a user-made drawing.
**] and ] are possibly unfree, as it's derivative of whoever owns the copyright to the displayed posters.

Revision as of 18:03, 5 July 2008

Trump International Hotel and Tower (Chicago)

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I'm nominating this article for featured article because it is a very thorough description of an interesting structure. I think the article is intriguing enough to present an opportunity for an interesting building under construction to appear at WP:TFA, should it succeed here. Skyscraper construction is a topic that should get its opportunity at TFA. I am not sure if that would be a first, but it would be interesting. While I am awaiting the completion of WP:PR and WP:GAC for articles at WP:CHIFTD, this is a good candidate.

I note that for a building under construction this is an interesting of before, during, and after (current) photography. Those who are interested in skyscrapers and architecture are likely to be able to glean information from the extensive images included and that is why they are WP:PRESERVEd. The images are laid out to use only 360px of width and the majority of viewers use either 1024 or or 1280 width. Anyone complaining about squeezing should probably just press their full screen button. I see no WP:WIAFA criterion that suggest we should not WP:PRESERVE photographic information. In this regard I would view moving to commons as similar to forking and unnecessary for the reader looking to learn about skyscraper construction.

Issues of stability have been hashed out extensively at WP:GAR and it has been resolved that a slowly evolving article that would not likely miss editorial attention if it were ignored for a few weeks is not a stability criterion violation.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 12:17, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

Restart, old nom. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 23:01, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

Comments

I'm coming at this with a fresh pairs of eyes - I didn't follow the previous FAC discussion. Hopefully these are useful. I'm mainly looking at prose issues:

  • Opening paragraph: "The building, named for famed real estate developer Donald Trump," this is picky, but I think "famed" is not really sufficiently neutrally worded. The sentence looses nothing if you drop the "famed" and allow readers to draw their own conclusions.
  • Opening paragraph: "With 92 floors for various uses," the phrase "various uses" is ambiguous. Does it mean each floor has more than one use, or that there are multiple uses for the entire building? If you are going to mention the multi-use nature of the tower, you may want to list the main uses - its a hotel and condo - anything else?
  • Opening paragraph: "It is located on a jog of the main branch of the Chicago River" - I think I can figure out what a "jog" in the river is, but its not a term I've heard before and it may not be obvious to everyone. Either wikilink it if it has a specific meaning, or use a more common term like "bend".
  • Opening paragraph: "The building received added publicity due to its association with the first season of the The Apprentice when the winner, Bill Rancic, selected its construction as his job choice". This sentence is convoluted and hard to follow. Try to simplify it if possible. Also I think it should read: "The building received additional publicity...". Perhaps it should read: "The building received additional publicity when the winner of the first season of The Apprentice, Bill Rancic, chose to work on the construction of the tower"?
  • Opening paragraph: "The building was designed by Adrian Smith, who worked for Skidmore, Owings and Merrill during the building's planning and design stages, and is being constructed by Bovis Lend Lease" I think this sentence should come earlier in the paragraph - it seems more important than the reference to The Apprentice, for example.
  • Second paragraph: "When designs for the building were first announced in 2001, the building was proposed to be the tallest building in the world.". Designs aren't really announced - perhaps you mean "revealed" or "published"? The second half of the sentence should read "...the building was intended to be the..."
  • Second paragraph: "...the building plans were scaled down..." instead "scaled back"?
  • Second paragraph: "...it will also exceed the second and third tallest buildings in the United States" better as: "it will also be taller than the second and third tallest buildings in the United States"
  • Second paragraph: "The building will surpass the Hancock Center for the world's highest residence from the ground" instead: ...the Hancock Center as the world's..." also what does "highest residence from the ground" mean? As opposed to highest from the air?
  • Third paragraph: "The design of the building includes retail, parking, a hotel and condominiums on top of each other in that order from the ground up" remove "on top of each other" - unnecessary
  • Location: Columbus Drive Bridge is a redlink
  • Location: "The restaurant on the 16th floor leverages the views of the Chicago River's entrance to Lake Michigan..." replace with "The restaurant on the 16th floor has views of the Chicago River's entrance to Lake Michigan..."
  • Location: "...and the four 1920s flanks of the Michigan Avenue Bridge..." I don't understand what this means? I think it means "the fours 1920s buildings that flank the Michigan Avenue Bridge..." - is that right?
  • Design "the first was designed to align with the Wrigley Building, the second was designed to align with the Marina City Towers, and the third was designed to align with the height of " reword to avoid repetition of "was designed to align with"
  • Design: "However, pictures belie the alignment of the second setback." how does they belie the alignment? Is there a source for this statement?
  • Design: "There was an issue about topping the building. Some early plans involved a broadcast antennas." These sentences are very short, can you reword this paragraph to flow better? Also clarify if its a single broadcast antenna or multiple antennas. Finally, shouldn't it be "Some early plans included a broadcast antenna"?
    • Since the plural of antenna is antennae or antennas. My latin would lead me to use the former, which is what I originally used, but one editor suggested the latter. If you are uncomfortable with the colloquial choice, I will switch back to the formal. It should not be broadcast antenna because the singular is incorrect. I have addressed your other concerns in the text.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 06:50, 25 June 2008 (UTC)
  • Height: "...it will not contest the record held by the 80-story..." technically a tower cannot contest anything. I think this should read "...will not beat the record..."
  • Hotel: "The hotel had originally planned to do a partial opening of three..." change to "The hotel had originally planned to partially open three..."

These are just examples of prose issues, there are more. I'd suggest another pass at the text. You may want to seek assistance from WP:PRV or at Misplaced Pages:WikiProject League of Copyeditors/Members. Best, Gwernol 00:13, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

  • Note: again pointing out that the article is misnamed, per current FAs, and how to solve the stability concern:

SandyGeorgia (Talk) 01:39, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

  • I agree with Tony on this issue. It is fairly unusual to have separate "Building" and "Construction of the Building" articles; this was only followed in the case of the World Trade Center due to WP:SUMMARY. The vast majority of building articles have information about construction (see 7 World Trade Center#Construction) and design/architecture in one article named with the title of the building, so I don't see why this should be an exception. Cheers, Rai•me 01:39, 27 June 2008 (UTC)
Resolved comments from Juliancolton 17:15, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

More later. Juliancolton 14:22, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

About the period inside the quotation marks, when part of a partial quote, the period goes outside the quotation, per MoS. Juliancolton 15:44, 25 June 2008 (UTC)
  • Comments, solid start but some polish needed.
    • Overlinked. Architect, office, hotel, condominium, and so on. Divers?
    • Please remove that footnote that explains your use of "jog" and just use the term. If that is not the proper technical term for that river feature, please use the correct term.
    • "The building received additional publicity ..." Additional to what? You haven't mentioned publicity yet.
    • The lead is too wordy; many sentences could be cut back to be more concise. For example, why do you have to list out the whole district/neighborhood/city/county/state/country in the lead? Why do you have to say "Borough of Manhattan", which is an uncommon formal name, instead of just "Manhattan"?
      • This is the standard format for the lead of my dozens of WP:GA and WP:FA buildings including FAChicago Board of Trade Building, which was a WP:TFA last week. See its first two sentences.
        • I do think you could at least drop Cook County (from this and your other articles). Chicago is far better known than the name of its county, and there aren't any other cities in Illinois called "Chicago", so "Cook County" isn't necessary. Zagalejo^^^ 21:40, 25 June 2008 (UTC)
          • I guess the question is there a problem of Preserving the information. In all of my Chicago articles (Go here and click CHI twice), no reviewer has felt the article would be better with the county removed. How many dozen articles is that? Sure we could take it out. Is the article better without the information of what county the building is in? I tend to doubt it. The article presents information on the location by exact street address, local neighborhood, census bureau community area, city, county, state and country. We could remove any and all such information. However, no other reviewer has requested such an action on a Chicago article before. I tend to think most are appreciative of having such information when it is available.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 01:45, 26 June 2008 (UTC)
      • Borough of Manhattan, came from the skyscaper ace User:Raime as a suggestion prior to the restart.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 19:15, 25 June 2008 (UTC)
            • Note that I also suggested dropping "Manhattan" all together. "the Borough of Manhattan in New York City" reads better than "New York City's Manhattan", but I really don't think it is needed, at least not in the lead. Cheers, Rai•me 01:39, 27 June 2008 (UTC)
        • I disagree, especially for the lead. Put it elsewhere if you like, but the lead is supposed to be a concise summary of the article. --Laser brain (talk) 03:15, 26 June 2008 (UTC)
          • How about if I put it in the same place as the last Chicago building article to make WP:TFA (Chicago Board of Trade Building last week) :-? Would you oppose that?--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 04:56, 26 June 2008 (UTC)
          • My point is that with all the editorial involvement that accompanies being on the main page the first two sentences were changed from the first below to the second (note it was agreed that city/state and country should appear in the first sentence and address, neighborhood, communtiy area and county should appear in the second):
            The Chicago Board of Trade Building is a skyscraper located in Chicago, Illinois. It stands at 141 W. Jackson Boulevard at the foot of the LaSalle Street canyon, in the Loop community area in Cook County, Illinois, United States.
            The Chicago Board of Trade Building is a skyscraper located in Chicago, Illinois, United States. It stands at 141 W. Jackson Boulevard at the foot of the LaSalle Street canyon, in the Loop community area in Cook County.
            • I still don't see why all that has to be in the lead. The River North district of Chicago is enough. --Laser brain (talk) 21:47, 26 June 2008 (UTC)
            • I'll second that. I think most readers will find those details overwhelming, rather than helpful. Zagalejo^^^ 07:24, 27 June 2008 (UTC)
              • I think you are suggesting a change from the commonly accepted. If you were me what would you think about two editors who disagree with the consensus of the editorial participants from a recent WP:TFA plus several dozen WP:GA and WP:FA reviews? I have changed the article to reflect the consensus of all editorial participants from the most recent Chicago Building WP:TFA of last week. I think that consensus should be acceptable even despite a personal preference. I read a lot of Chicago articles and community area is something that I feel is important. It conveys more information than River North district. I always look for such information in Chicago articles because it is one of the only cities in American that has meaningful neighborhood designations because they have been constant for a century. Furthermore, it is supported by a better article. The county also conveys information not readily available. I also feel that the address is somewhat important, but since it is in the infobox, I am less attached to it. As a compromise, I would be willing to remove the street address, although I think this is the incorrect thing to do.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 21:19, 28 June 2008 (UTC)
                • Since the article has a whole section devoted to describing its location, I have moved the sentence with the detail to lead this seciton.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 01:13, 29 June 2008 (UTC)
                  • I guess it's slightly better there, though I'd replace "Cook County" with "Chicago", since the Near North Side is a division of the city, not the county. We really don't need to mention Cook County at all, for the reasons I stated above, but if you want to mention it somewhere, just mention it in the infobox. Zagalejo^^^ 05:09, 29 June 2008 (UTC)
                    • You are correct that the community areas are divisions of the city and I have revised the text to that effect. However, I don't think above you explained why the article would be better off without mention of the county in the text of the article unless it is the overwhelmed argument. That argument would essentially make the case that the whole location section of the article is counterproductive because the whole paragraph gives various details about the location of the building.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 06:14, 29 June 2008 (UTC)
                        • On the one hand, it's a prose issue -- no one wants to read long strings of prepositional phrases. But there's also the fact that Chicago is much better known internationally than Cook County, so we don't need to mention the county to help readers pinpoint where this structure is located. (And it's not like there's another Chicago in Illinois, so we don't need to disambiguate anything.) Zagalejo^^^ 06:30, 29 June 2008 (UTC)
                          • If it is a matter of too many prepositional phrases in a sentence we can break the sentence up as I now have. There is nothing in the entire paragraph that is not redundant on some level with other information. The whole paragraph gives a flavorful perspective of where the building is. It describes surrounding streets, bodies of water, shopping districts, census areas, etc. I remain unconvinced that the county information is any less useful a piece of color for this paragraph. I further remain unconvinced the article would be better without it.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 07:05, 29 June 2008 (UTC)
                              • Ehhh... I don't think that's the best solution. We still have a lot of prepositional phrases clustered very close to each other, and now there are two really short sentences in a row, which makes the prose choppy. How does the name of the county add color? If it were me, I'd just mention the county in the infobox, and use this as the first sentence of "Location": "The tower is located at 401 North Wabash Avenue in Chicago's Near North Side community area." (We mention the River North Gallery District later in the paragraph, so we can also drop that from the sentence.) Zagalejo^^^ 03:16, 30 June 2008 (UTC)
                                • Information in an infobox or an image caption does not count as part of the text. Thus, your solution causes County information to be removed. County is a very important item of information for architecture people. Many start-class National Register of Historic Places houses articles have county in their infobox. I am not sure why architecture people care about county, but they do. I do not think an FA-class article should remove it entirely from the text. I also do not like the way the location information is getting strewn all over the article. The suggestion that part be in the LEAD, part at the begining of location, part at end of location and part in infobox seems to be disruptive.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 06:43, 30 June 2008 (UTC)
    • I don't think you need to specify which day of the week April 28, 2008 was.
    • "However, pictures belie the alignment of the second setback." I don't know what this means... sounds like original research.
    • "There was an issue about topping the building" Not well-written. Revise to include in the second phrase.
    • "The building will contain 2,600,000 square feet (241,548 m²)" square feet of what? Disco?
    • "The tower will also feature a five-star luxury hotel condominium with 339 guest rooms." Statements like these are at odds with other statements that the hotel is already open. This will require near-constant attention to combat stability concerns.
    • "The hotel had originally planned to do a partial opening of three of its floors ..." Not a big fan of "do an opening", at least in this context. --Laser brain (talk) 18:50, 25 June 2008 (UTC)
Resolved comments from Juliancolton 13:18, 27 June 2008 (UTC) Well, that's all from me. It's almost there. Juliancolton 15:03, 26 June 2008 (UTC)
  • Support All my issues have been addressed, and the article's much improved since the nomination began. Good work. Juliancolton 13:18, 27 June 2008 (UTC)
  • Support carried over from previous nomination. This article is certainly an example of Misplaced Pages's best work. Cheers, Rai•me 01:39, 27 June 2008 (UTC)
    • However, two unaddressed concerns from the previous nom: In the "Architecture" section, it states: "Because the Trump Tower has both hotel condominiums (originally planned as office space) and residential condominiums". The addition of the "(originally planned as office space)" seems out of place there, particularly as it is discussed in much more detail in a later section. Also, I still think the statement about "pictures belie" at least needs a link to a note, as not all readers would think to examine the lead image in relation to this statement. Cheers, Rai•me 01:39, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

Oppose. The prose is sloppy and below FA standard. There is redundancy and odd, unintelligible phrases throughout the article. Here are a few examples.

  • The building is cantilevered into a section of the 420 million-year-old limestone formation that is 110 feet (34 m) underground in the earth's crust. - The redundancy is even linked!
  • The insiders were people
  • What exactly is a private couples treatment suite, and were is the possessive?
    • The source gives no further information and does not use a possessive. WP:OR would be required for further information. Grammatically, I guess this is spelled this way in a manner to the common spelling of mens room, smokers lounge, etc. This is just the way they spell it. Who are we to correct them on their spelling.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 21:04, 28 June 2008 (UTC)
  • He also notes that although many are not as supportive of the structure as the restaurant architecturally, ???

GrahamColm 17:32, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

    • This sentence may need some context. He is the Chicago Tribune architecture critic. He has expressed significant praise for the architecture of the restaurant on the 16th floor and says many may not have the same level of praise for the entire building. Is this a point of confusion for you. Do you have a suggestion on how to rephrase?--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 21:36, 28 June 2008 (UTC)
      • I think the problem is that you don't say that there was opposition to the building's design until later in the article (and even there, you don't really go into specifics). Zagalejo^^^ 05:25, 29 June 2008 (UTC)
        • As an architecture critic of a building that is largely completed, he was making a statement about the actual building and not its design. Since Graham has made the point that the article is redundant and unintelligible throughout and he has only taken the time to point out one possible point of unintelligibility, I think he is saying that pointing out that an architecture critic says many are not supportive of an entire structure architecturally and are more supportive of its restaurant architecturally is someting that would confuse and stymie the vast majority of WP readers without further explanation. I suppose he is also saying the article is chock full of equally as mystifying points. I certainly hope he will respond to my request for further guidance because I would like to improve the article.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 06:52, 29 June 2008 (UTC)
            • Well, there are a couple of other problems I see with that phrase: 1) It's not clear that "structure" refers to the structure of the entire building; at first glance, one might think it refers to the structure of the restaurant. 2) I'm not sure it's correct to use the word "architecturally" to modify a description of a person's opinion. Zagalejo^^^ 07:08, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

More examples here: , and I left some comments on the talk page. GrahamColm 18:21, 29 June 2008 (UTC)
The following two points were copied from the talk page:

  • Attention I have posted links to images with dubious licensing on the talk page. One shows what the view will be like from the patio of the restaurant and the other shows the restaurant. Comments are welcome on the propriety of the use of such images in the article.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 00:31, 30 June 2008 (UTC)
  • Some new comments A few more things I thought I should bring up:
  • Sitting on the north side of the Chicago River, it is visible from locations to the east along the river, such as the mouth of Lake Michigan, the Lake Shore Drive Overpass, the Columbus Drive Bridge as well as waterway traffic.
Is waterway traffic a "location"? And is it only visible from locations to the east along the river? Zagalejo^^^ 07:56, 30 June 2008 (UTC)
  • It is situated at a point along the main branch of the Chicago River where there is a brief change in direction that both gives the illusion that the River leads to the building and gives the building a clear line of view of the Lake Michigan mouth of the river.
Is there a source for this? Zagalejo^^^ 07:56, 30 June 2008 (UTC)
Based on the main image is this something likely to be challenged? I will remove it if you really think it is WP:OR.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 14:50, 30 June 2008 (UTC)
Well, it's a judgment call. I'd still prefer a source of some sort. The illusion may only work from certain angles. Zagalejo^^^ 18:11, 30 June 2008 (UTC)
It is visible from many places. It is probably visible from Indiana now. It is visible from the north and south along Wabash (see photo towards end of the article).--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 14:53, 30 June 2008 (UTC)
  • The passageway leads to views—praised by Pulitzer Prize winning critic Blair Kamin—that showcase the Wrigley Building clock tower and Tribune Tower's flying buttresses; however, Kamin does not compare the views favorably to those of the Hancock Center's Signature Room.
I was just looking at the source, and I don't think it's fair to say he "does not compare the views favorably to those of the Hancock Center's Signature Room". Read what he actually writes. He says that the views are different from the Signature Room's, not worse. (Indeed, he says that Sixteen's vistas "are more intimate" than the "airplane-window panoramas" at the Signature Room, which kind of suggests he prefers Sixteen's views.) Zagalejo^^^ 08:08, 30 June 2008 (UTC)
However, "Sixteen, which has been serving breakfast and dinner since early February, and opens for lunch Monday, is blessed with million-dollar views, though they're not the sort of airplane-window panoramas you get in the Signature Room near the top of the 100-story John Hancock Center." seems to suggest he relishes the panoramas of the Signature Room. I interpret his comment as saying it is less pleasant for lack of an unobstructed panorama, but partly makes up for it with the intimate setting. See the pictures above marked ATTENTION.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 14:58, 30 June 2008 (UTC)
I disagree. At least, there's no clear evidence that he prefers the Signature Room. The only thing we can say for sure is that he says the two views are different. Zagalejo^^^ 18:11, 30 June 2008 (UTC)
O.K.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 20:47, 30 June 2008 (UTC)
I reworded it a little bit, since I don't think "However" is the correct transition. Zagalejo^^^ 22:35, 30 June 2008 (UTC)
  • Support - I worked on this article (barely) a long while ago. Since that time Tony has really improved the article. The prose might need a check (I'm no expert on grammar, so it might be OK) but the referencing, organization, neutrality, and images are excellent and definitely FA worthy. The article is understandable and presents a lot of great information. And not only is it comprehensive on the topic, it actually seems to be exhaustive. Chupper (talk) 21:05, 30 June 2008 (UTC)
Resolved comments from Golbez (talk) 21:53, 1 July 2008 (UTC)
  • Comments:
      • "...with an unobstructed view of the entry to Lake Michigan..." God, I know this is pedantic, but the river flows away from Lake Michigan, so is "entry" the best word to use here? (it seems awkward otherwise, but then again, it's not really a 'mouth' either, is it) This is so minor, the only reason I'm bringing it up is that it's 2am and I am on caffeinated autopilot, but maybe some good will come of it.
      • "...behind the Sears Tower and rising above the current second and third-tallest, the Aon Center and the John Hancock Center respectively..." I reordered this sentence a little bit, but something irked my brain: The? I know everyone calls it The Sears Tower, but I've rarely heared The Aon Center, to me it's always just been Aon Center. Likewise with John Hancock Center. It just reads a little off, but then again, I'm not from Chicago, I'm just a skyscraper geek. (I don't know who's going to hate me more after this review, you or me)
      • The Cook County mention seems gratuitous.
      • Please look at my efforts of rearranging some things in the first paragraph to get rid of the colon and to avoid doubling up on situational verbs.
      • Is it located at 401 N Wabash, or is that its address? I'm not too keen on the best practices here, but I would say 401 is a designator, not a location...
      • Do we need to know where the Mag Mile starts? Can't we just say, "It lies a block from the southern end of the Mag Mile"?
      • Oh, wait, now I see, you mention the bridge a sentence later. It still seems extraneous though, maybe it can be condensed somehow.
      • The Marina City thing irks me; it would be a tiny bit of OR, but do you know if it's possible to contact SOM or the Trump Tower itself and enquire about the setbacks lining up with buildings?
      • Why is the floor numbered "27M"? Doesn't appear to be a typo, since it's in the diagram; what does the M mean?
    • Intro:
      • "The building, named after real estate developer Donald Trump..." Isn't it owned by him as well? Ownership and naming rights are two very different things, as we can see, in Chicago alone, in things like how Big Stan changed names, but Sears has not.
      • "With 92 floors, the Trump International Hotel and Tower is expected to rise to a height of 1,362 feet (415 m) with the spire and 1,170 feet (360 m) without the spire." I'm not sure if it would be better this way, which is why I'm suggesting rather than implementing it, but I suggest making the spire secondary. Something more like, "... is expected to rise to a height of 1,170 feet (360 m), with a spire bringing the total height to 1,362 feet (415 m)." Also, saying "the" seems strange, as if it's a specific spire going on top of the building, so perhaps "a" is better.
      • A real issue, though - aren't you just namedropping a bunch of skyscrapers? OK, so it will be the 2nd tallest in Chicago - do we need to mention the current #2 (and especially the current #3), even if they are famous? And, again, so it will be the 2nd tallest in the country - does that mean we have to also mention the current #2 and #3? (In the case of Empire State - yes. But I don't really see a need for a mention of the BoA tower.) Perhaps trimming this to just, "It will be the 2nd tallest building in the city and country, behind the Sears Tower but surpassing such local landmarks as the John Hancock Center and Aon Center, and national landmarks such as the Empire State Building." Nor do we need to know which borough those buildings are in, nor, frankly, do we need to know who will pass it. It's not even done yet. Do the articles on Sears, Empire State, and Hancock mention their pending surpassing in their intros? No. And, in fact, neither Hancock nor Empire State mention Trump at all. Though the mention of surpassing Hancock's record is definitely intro-worthy.
        • My thoughts are that we the article is about one of the tallest buildings in the United States. As demonstrated later in the text, its height relative to other buildings has been quite an issue. In articles refenced throughout the text the height relative to other buildings on the Chicago skyline and in the U.S. is notable. The articles mention these other buildings (except the BoA Tower to my recollection). Since the secondary sources take time to place it correctly relative to other buildings, it is somewhat appropriate here. The third place buildings may be gratuitous. However, for an article of this length the WP:LEAD is not to long. I am not oppposed to removing the third place buildings and will remove the BoA building. I think the second place building should remain. Since the Hancock center is later referenced I will also leave it.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 14:34, 1 July 2008 (UTC)
          • That's just it, it's not the article about one of the tallest buildings in the United States. If it were, like the other tallest articles, it wouldn't mention all the ones it was slightly taller than in its intro. (and, in fact, looking at them, none of them do in their entire articles.) It's about a building under construction, and due to that, there seems to be an urge to drop names on all the famous buildings it is going to be taller than; I'm trying to resist that urge and make it more like a completed building article, rather than one touting all of its extremes, as if from a press release. Mentioning the 2nd place buildings is fine, since it will be 2nd place, but 3rd place in both counts is extraneous. (Related note: Is there a way to get rid of the double "rising" in two sentences?) --Golbez (talk) 16:18, 1 July 2008 (UTC)
            • I think the point you are making might be more relevant two or three years from now. However, currently the secondary sources are comparing the building to other buildings so we should. Probably two or three years from now that will all stop. We must relay the secondary source points of fact to our readers. Right now the comparative heights are important to the readers and writers of our secondary sources so they are important to WP as a tertiary resource that relays the information of secondary sources.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 17:55, 1 July 2008 (UTC)
              • But once you say it's taller than the Empire State Building, I think that really drives it home. We don't need to mention #3, #4, and #5, just because they're also particularly well-known (though I disagree that BoA is well-known yet) The best things to compare it to are Empire State and Sears. --Golbez (talk) 18:39, 1 July 2008 (UTC)
                • Note: I have already removed BoA. IMO, the relative height of the Hancock Center should be mentioned in the lead because 1. Trump will break its record as mentioned in the article, 2. The architecture critic compares its views as mentioned in the article, 3. From the WP:CHICAGO perspective, Chicagoans (and their tourist friends) view this as a landmark height in the sense that some of the most famous sky view pictures of the city are taken from its skydeck. I am only including Aon because it would be odd to include #3 (in Chicago) and not #2.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 20:52, 1 July 2008 (UTC)
    • Location:
    • Architecture:
    • Features:
      • Is it possible to combine the first three sentences in Hotel? Something like... "The hotel had originally planned to have a partial opening of three of its floors on December 3, 2007 with a grand opening to follow, but this was delayed until January 30, 2008, when all 27 floors of the hotel opened" or what not. The first and third sentences appear easily combined, but the one in the middle about occupancy gets in the way, and I'm not sure it's necessary... maybe just add a short note about "but this way delayed due to permits/approval until ..."
      • Incidentally, you say "the hotel, which occupies the first 27 floors, opened"... but then you say "the entire hotel and its full offering of amenities" opened two months later. What was lacking in the first opening? It makes it sound as if the whole hotel opened the first time, so all that was left in March was amenities? Or were portions of the hotel not open yet? Or, is this simply the difference between opening for business, and having an official, party-filled grand opening thing?
      • "praised by Pulitzer Prize winning critic Blair Kamin" "Chicago Tribune architecture critic Kamin" A minor issue, but do you think it's possible to establish his credentials once? It's just that, the second one, where it starts out 'Chicago Tribune architecture critic...', I was expecting it to mention a new, second person, not the one already introduced. Though, reading on in the sentence, I now see why it was needed to mention his newspaper, since a fellow Tribune critic is mentioned a few words later.
      • "Kamin says Trump's use of zebra wood is among the architectural foibles of the hotel lobby." I know that the hotel is supposed to start on floor 16, but this should be reiterated in this section, as it's kind of a throwaway mention in Architecture. So without re-establishing that the hotel starts on floor 16, it seems weird to talk about the hotel lobby in a section about the restaurant. (And even then, if this criticism is only about the lobby, it shouldn't be in the restaurant section
      • "NBC5 WMAQ-TV Street Team" I would say you don't need the NBC5 - the call letters are sufficient.
      • "Rebar is also known for its 25-person VIP room overlooking the lobby." Is it known for this, really? Or does it just have it? I'd probably think it's a bit too new to be 'known' for anything. :)
    • Development:
    • AAaaaaand that's all. --Golbez (talk) 08:02, 1 July 2008 (UTC)

(Copied from user talk page) Thanks for your recent editorial contributions. I agree with all of them except I am not so sure the word Twin should be removed since there are so many World Trade Center Towers in addition to the famous tall twins. I will probably readd the word. However, I also noticed you partially reverted another editors changes. You prefer upon to on as do I, but User:GrahamColm changed many upons to on. Since I hope for support from both of you we need to work this out. I am on your side on this issue. I will be working through your comments today and will comment if other issues arise.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 14:16, 1 July 2008 (UTC)

I rearranged the sentence, I think that sentence begins better with 'upon' than 'on' but hopefully this won't be a sticking point. --Golbez (talk) 16:18, 1 July 2008 (UTC)
  • There was an issue about topping the building because Smith's 2002 plans involved broadcast antennas (multiple communications dishes).
"There was an issue..." is a bit vague. Did Smith change the design because he wanted to increase the official height? Or did he change the design for aesthetic reasons? Or both? The source isn't clear. Zagalejo^^^ 20:28, 2 July 2008 (UTC)
I have no idea what you want me to do since the source is not clear.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 05:51, 3 July 2008 (UTC)
Is there another source that could clarify things? Zagalejo^^^ 06:15, 3 July 2008 (UTC)
Think about how rare this is on WP to have comprehensive detail on the construction and development of a skyscraper and then think about whether we should expect multiple perspectives. I am not so sure there is more. I will check and see if I can find something in the Chicago Sun-Times, but don't hold your breath.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 07:17, 3 July 2008 (UTC)
A Newsbank search for Trump Hotel in May 2004 reveals nothing that will help in the Sun-Times.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 07:33, 3 July 2008 (UTC)
I reworded it, because I don't think you should lead with "There was an issue..." without being clear exactly what the issue was. Zagalejo^^^ 07:25, 4 July 2008 (UTC)
*Floors 3 through 12 will be used for lobbies, retail, and parking. A health club and spa will be on the 14th floor and mezzanine. Hotel condominiums and executive lounges will be on floors 17 through 27M. The tower's residential condominiums will be located from the 29th through 85th floors. Penthouses will make up floors 86 through 89.
I think we should try to combine some of these short sentences. At present, the paragraph is very choppy. Zagalejo^^^ 20:34, 2 July 2008 (UTC)
I combined the shorties. You can change further if you like.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 06:02, 3 July 2008 (UTC)
Looks better, although the tense is inconsistent. Is that deliberate, to reflect that certain parts are already open? Zagalejo^^^ 06:15, 3 July 2008 (UTC)
Yes. I imagine the retail stores won't want to open until the condominium residents move in. The rest should be obvious.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 07:14, 3 July 2008 (UTC)
OK. Zagalejo^^^ 07:25, 4 July 2008 (UTC)
  • The foyer is T-shaped, and the passageway to the hotel is lined with floor-to-ceiling architectural bronze wine racks in opposing red and white wine rooms.
What is the function of "architecural" in this sentence? Zagalejo^^^ 20:43, 2 July 2008 (UTC)
It is an adjective that I uses in the same way as the secondary source (Chicago Tribune) which seems to believe that there is a such thing as "architectural bronze." If you know better feel free to change this or request a change.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 06:06, 3 July 2008 (UTC)
Never mind; there is something called "architectural bronze": . Someone should write an article about it. Zagalejo^^^ 06:15, 3 July 2008 (UTC)
  • The restaurant drew immediate favorable reviews for its cuisine, decor and location upon opening as an elite entertainment venue, although some consider it more of a place to impress clients and dates than a top–notch dining experience.
I really think you should explain why "some consider it more of a place to impress clients and dates than a top-notch dining experience". I don't understand how it can be one thing, and not the other. How would you impress clients with a sub-par dining experience? Zagalejo^^^ 21:06, 2 July 2008 (UTC)
How is that?--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 06:15, 3 July 2008 (UTC)
A little better, but we never explain what the reviewer felt was wrong with the food. Zagalejo^^^ 06:28, 3 July 2008 (UTC)
At the encyclopedic level what matters is that in the big picture he did not feel the food was top notch. Further detail is not really relevant for an encyclopedia unless there is a broad consensus among multiple reviewers that for example the desert menu is not a strong point, or they rarely seem to have the proper seasonal choices. I think we should leave it general at this early stage of consensus building on the restaurant. When Zagats comes out with 1000 contributor we can say something significant.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 07:22, 3 July 2008 (UTC)
Eh, okay... although you don't really maintain the same "big picture" standards throughout the section. From what I can tell, only one writer complains about the zebrawood. There doesn't appear to be consensus among reviewers that the zebrawood is unsightly. Zagalejo^^^ 07:25, 4 July 2008 (UTC)
I have no preference.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 06:16, 3 July 2008 (UTC)
Well, we should stick to one or the other. I personally like serial commas. Zagalejo^^^ 07:25, 4 July 2008 (UTC)
Do you know what is standard policy?--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 14:13, 4 July 2008 (UTC)
See Misplaced Pages:Manual_of_Style#Serial_commas. Zagalejo^^^ 08:24, 5 July 2008 (UTC)
  • Another general comment. When you write "Trump", you should clarify whether you're referring to the person or the organization. (e.g., In April, Trump began the foundation below the Chicago River.) Zagalejo^^^ 21:47, 2 July 2008 (UTC)
Thanks.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 06:19, 3 July 2008 (UTC)
OK, though there might be some other instances of ambiguity. Zagalejo^^^ 06:39, 3 July 2008 (UTC)
  • One member of the WMAQ-TV Street Team commended it for its signature cocktails and sushi, while another gave kudos for the design and the stainless steel swizzle sticks that they call "stirs".
Who is "they"?
Thanks.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 06:24, 3 July 2008 (UTC)
OK. Zagalejo^^^ 06:28, 3 July 2008 (UTC)
  • Smith had previously designed the Jin Mao Tower and AT&T Corporate Center, while Skidmore Owings & Merrill had previously designed the Sears Tower and the Hancock Center.
Didn't Skidmore, Owings and Merril have a hand in all of those buildings?
Yes.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 06:27, 3 July 2008 (UTC)
OK. Zagalejo^^^ 06:39, 3 July 2008 (UTC)
  • On September 19, 2007, the Trump International Hotel and Tower was featured on an episode of the Discovery Channel series Build It Bigger entitled "High Risk Tower".
Is this really worth mentioning?
In the future the building will likely be used in Hollywood and other forms of pop culture. This is the first mention. Right now it stands out by itself, but when this is in a section with three or four other pop culture references it will seem in place.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 06:29, 3 July 2008 (UTC)
Hmm, OK. It might be better in its own section, although I realize that single-sentence paragraphs are frowned upon. Zagalejo^^^ 06:39, 3 July 2008 (UTC)
It was formerly a single sentence. I think it was User:Raime who suggested the move. It is in the history above somewhere (maybe before the restart). If it O.K. should it have a strikethrough?--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 07:23, 3 July 2008 (UTC)
I don't know... I don't really like it where it is. Seems to come out of nowhere. Zagalejo^^^ 07:25, 4 July 2008 (UTC)
Well this issue seems inactionable. I have followed the advice of one reviewer and you don't seem to have a better suggestion.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 14:13, 4 July 2008 (UTC)
Well, there are three things you can do: 1) Remove it for now, and wait until the "three or four other pop culture references" come into being. 2) Put it in its own section anyway, with an "expand" tag or something. (This would probably kill your chances of a FA, but considering that you'll have to rewrite much of this article anyway once the building is completed, it's something to consider.) 3) Try to come up with some sort of transitional phrase that will pull it into the flow of the paragraph where it currently sits. Zagalejo^^^ 08:24, 5 July 2008 (UTC)
Currently the whole article has a template at the top so an expand tag for any section will not be necessary for another year, IMO. Possibly by then other pop culture references will arise. With that template I don't think much action is necessary. People should understand that some new building issues may exist, IMO. Option 3 is probably the best. Any advice would be appreciated in this regard.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 15:07, 5 July 2008 (UTC)
How is the new transition?--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 15:16, 5 July 2008 (UTC)
  • In May 2004, it was revealed that instead of topping the building with communication dishes, which as broadcast antenna do not count toward building height, the building would include an ornamental spire, which according to the Council on Tall Buildings and Urban Habitat count toward building height and raise the height to 1,300 feet (396 m).
This is kind of clunky. Who "revealed" this? Try to avoid the passive voice when possible. Also, I'd mention the Council on Tall Buildings and Urban Habitat earlier in the sentence. Zagalejo^^^ 21:47, 2 July 2008 (UTC)
I revised the sentence, but could not think of a way to move the council forward.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 07:07, 3 July 2008 (UTC)
  • I see you've added some new text to the restaurant section. Unfortunately, it's very sloppy. Right now, I'm too tired to list every problem, but hopefully you'll notice some of the obvious errors, and once they're fixed, I'll give you some more advice. Zagalejo^^^ 08:43, 5 July 2008 (UTC)
I took a stab at it.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 15:07, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

Very strong oppose—(1) requirement for a professional standard of formatting; (2) concerns at content that could easily function as advertising, thus bringing into question WP's NPOV and authority on the Internet; and (3) issues with prose and MOS, although not at all major.

1) You know I link 50% more words than the average editor and we always go back and forth on this. When I link four or five hundred word you will find the 2% that are most marginal and I conceed many of them are. However, I think most of the 50% extra are good links.--
I've pointed out, through examples, why many links are silly and useless. Don't try to game this process. TONY (talk) 10:45, 3 July 2008 (UTC)
See comment below in bold.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 14:29, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 07:07, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

If you want to overlink, none of your articles will be promoted: simple as that. It's a disservice to our readers. Get over this fixation with linking. TONY (talk) 10:45, 3 July 2008 (UTC)
2) It is possible to write a detailed article about a commercial entity without being POV. Rather than point to NPOV because this is a commercial entity, it would make sense to say X, Y, & Z sentences are really disquised advertising. If we can not resolve any such issues you will have a point. However, my details are pretty neutral with equal positive and negative where appropriate, IMO.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 07:07, 3 July 2008 (UTC)
No, they don't come out as "pretty neutral". It's a free advert. TONY (talk) 10:45, 3 July 2008 (UTC)
Comment I've been watching the FA candidacy of this article develop over the course of the past couple of weeks. I think most of the suggestions made here have been beastly, but very helpful nevertheless. The article has really come along. I could also see how some say the prose needs to be tweaked, but again, I'm not a grammar expert. But I could not disagree more with the comment that this is a "free advert". Buildings and skyscrapers garner a certain amount of enthusiasm from folks in a city - whether they are completed or not. Buildings are significant to a city's architecture and pride and therefore get a lot of attention. By browsing online forums it becomes evident that there are thousands of individuals monitoring the progress of these new skyscrapers every day. Simply go to Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Skyscrapers and you can see the amount of time and dedication editors have spent working on articles of skyscrapers proposed, under construction and completed. IMO Tony1's argument stating that this is a free advert would be no different than me saying that having an article on Misplaced Pages about the Chicago Cubs is a free advert because it helps sell tickets. It is possible to have an article on Misplaced Pages on a subject which is very commercially active without calling it a "free advert". I can't speak for all skyscraper editors on Misplaced Pages, but I'm guessing a lot would have a hard time calling this free advertising. Tonythetiger was right; if you can name sentences, sections, and/or paragraphs that are NPOV that would be helpful. But labeling the whole article an advertisement is wrong and completely unhelpful, IMO. Chupper (talk) 13:00, 3 July 2008 (UTC)
3) I will respond to any particular issues. I just hope you will be timely so that I can respond before Sandy has to make a decision.--

TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 07:07, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

Are you expecting anything to happen soon? TONY (talk) 10:45, 3 July 2008 (UTC)
In general, when you jump into my discussions during advanced stages. Often this happens at a time when the article is headed toward promote. Then immediately a bunch of reviewere follow along with you and Sandy quickly closes. This is the pattern that has evolved. I am just noting it here.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 14:55, 3 July 2008 (UTC)
You added a link? Why? Are you trying to shit me? They "standing-room-only bar", unlinked. TONY (talk) 10:45, 3 July 2008 (UTC)
"They "standing-room-only bar", unlinked."—Is that a sentence? I don't know what you want. You may note that the term standing room only has a dedicated article and the term is used without hyphens. I added a link because there seems to be some confusion about a word that does not need to be expounded upon in this article.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 14:47, 3 July 2008 (UTC)
  • "It offers gemstone-infused (diamond, ruby, or sapphire) oil massages, a "robe menu", and, for customers who come sufficiently early, hydrating masques, exfoliating salts and the "Deluge shower"." Two things: first, this level of detail commits us to monitoring whether there are fine-grained changes in this service; second, more importantly, this goes over the boundary of allowing advertising on WP. Reword with reduced detail and even no commercial name. I'd conflate restaurant, bar and spa into "Facilities" and treat in a circumspect way.
    • The point of pursuing a FA is to present an indepth coverage. Saying adding details requires that we check on them is nothing new to wikipedia. This is no different than saying that describine Carlos Beltrán as a five tool player commits us to monitoring whether he continues to have above average speed as a baserunner as one of the five tools. Advertising is rarely done with as much negative point of view as this article. I don't think anyone could rightly claim that this is an example of advertising.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 08:34, 3 July 2008 (UTC)
  • "after a request remove all advertising from it"
No, it's totally ungrammatical. TONY (talk) 10:47, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

Ping me when it's all fixed. TONY (talk) 03:45, 3 July 2008 (UTC) TONY (talk) 03:45, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

I couldn't give a dump what is linked in some other article; nor should you: that is totally irrelevant. I'm concerned only with this article. Saying that it's fine to link an item just because it's linked somewhere else is the dumbest argument I've heard in a long time. It's up to you to justify on substantive terms why each link is "signficantly useful to the reader". You're wasting my time—time I could be spending on useful things. I've shown you how the article can be significantly improved; again you treat it like a game called spa-with-the-reviewer. TONY (talk) 10:45, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

Oppose at this stage.

  • "The building received publicity when the winner of the first season of The Apprentice, Bill Rancic, chose to work on the construction of the tower." - in what context did he work on it? (As part of the show, or just randomly... keep in mind that not everyone watches The Apprentice...)
  • "and its design has undergone several revisions." - of course it has; no plan is ever perfect from the start. Needs to be more specific.
  • "According to the current design, upon completion in 2009 it will be the second-tallest building in Chicago and in the United States, rising above the Empire State Building in New York City and Chicago's current second and third-tallest, the Aon Center and John Hancock Center, respectively, but behind Chicago's Sears Tower." - this sentence is all over the place - far too long and commas galore.
    • This sentence has received as much attention as any in the article from previous editors. I have attempted to follow advice as much as possible. If you have a better suggestion please see all the commentary above in this discussion and prior to the restart and then feel free to edit in a way that is helpful.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 14:37, 3 July 2008 (UTC)
  • I don't get why you need to link The New York Times and The New York Times Company in refs.
  • "The design of the building includes, in order from the ground up, retail, parking, a hotel, and condominiums." - "in order from the ground up" is probably evident from what you list, so it's not really necessary.
  • "The 339-room hotel opened for business with limited accommodation and service on 30 January 2008. 28 April 2008 marked the grand opening of the hotel with full accommodation and service." - repetition (in bold) that can be smoothed out.

That's just from the lead. Prose still needs work, it seems. —Giggy 12:33, 3 July 2008 (UTC)


Skyscraper: In FAChicago Board of Trade Building, which was WP:TFA two weeks ago skyscraper is linked. GA One Bayfront Plaza links skyscraper. Skyscraper is commonly linked because the average reader does not know the difference between a skyscraper and a high rise. Skyscraper is I belive linked in all of the WP:FL articles at Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Skyscrapers/Featured Topic Drive. --TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 08:09, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

My problem with your delinking is that you chose to delink so many words that are commonly used in skyscraper articles. In general you object way too late to respond before Sandy has to make a decision in this case, I think we should hash out this edit to get some understanding of our varying perspectives on linking. I invite you to hash out your edit word by word because I reverted it.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 08:09, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

Thank you, no: that's your job. You have to justify that every link, according to this statement in MOS:

Make links only where they are relevant to the context: It is not useful and can be very distracting to mark all possible words as hyperlinks. Links should add to the user's experience; they should not detract from it by making the article harder to read. A high density of links can draw attention away from the high-value links that you would like your readers to follow up. Redundant links clutter the page and make future maintenance harder. A link is the equivalent of a footnote in a print medium. Imagine if every second word in an encyclopedia article were followed by "(see: ...)". Hence, links should not be so numerous as to make the article harder to read.

and these statements in the styleguide Misplaced Pages:Only make links that are relevant to the context:

Redundant links clutter up the page and make future maintenance harder. A link is analogous to a cross-reference in a print medium. Imagine if every second word in an encyclopedia article were followed by "(see:)". The links should not be so numerous as to make the article harder to read.

and

Numerous links in the summary of an article may cause users to jump elsewhere rather than read the whole summary.

and

In general, do not create links to plain English words, including common units of measurement.

Sometimes the density of links is very high in the article. It does no one any service, particularly those who are looking for high-value links to follow. It looks messy and unprofessional. It's harder to read.

I can assure you that for some time now, autoformatting has not been mandatory. The guidelines are in MOSNUM.

As for your belligerent attitude, and your accusations and implications that I've planned the timing of my comments and have premeditated a campaign against your FACs: I'm sorry to disappoint you—it's not the case.

Now that you've used a proper reason to justify your linking of "skyscraper", rather than saying just that some other article uses it, I can see a little possible benefit, although English-speakers are expected to know that the word means a very tall building. If distinguishing it from "highrise" is important to readers' understanding of the topic, I can't quite see it—the word "highrise" appears nowhere in the article. You tell us within two seconds that:

At 92 floors, the Trump International Hotel and Tower is expected to rise to a height of 1,362 feet (415 m) including its spire, with its roof topping out at 1,170 feet (360 m).

So we know its dimensions. Why are you bothering us with bright-blue about the word? The linked article, if our long-suffering readers divert themselves to it, tells us:

Thus, depending on the average height of the rest of the buildings and/ or structures in a city, even a building of 80 meters height (approximately 262 ft) may be considered a skyscraper provided that it clearly stands out above its surrounding built environment and significantly changes the overall skyline of that particular city.

(Pardon the little glitches in the text.)

Then we're told in that article that:

The somewhat arbitrary term skyscraper should not be confused with the slightly less arbitrary term highrise, defined by the Emporis Standards Committee as "...a multi-storey structure with at least 12 floors or 35 meters (115 feet) in height." Some structural engineers define a highrise as any vertical construction for which wind is a more significant load factor than weight. Note that this criterion fits not only high rises but some other tall structures, such as towers.

Right, makes your use of the word "skyscraper" so much easier to understand, and increases my understanding of Trump International Hotel and Tower (Chicago) ... an awful lot.

OK, let's go to your linking of "sushi". This will take quite a few months. TONY (talk) 15:37, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

Reply It is not my intent to debate redundant links. I am willing to delink any such links you point out as most are included accidentally. My debate is about first instances of words such as geographic locations and full dates. You continue to ignore the policy guidelines that are relevant. Is there a reason why you are shifting the debate from the relevant policy guidelines I mention above to redundant links which I want help removing.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 16:11, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

Comments - Here are some possible writing improvements since I'm not getting involved in any debates over whether this is overlinked or an advert.

Take these comments for what they are worth, as I am not a building expert. Giants2008 (talk) 19:14, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

I'm back for another look.
  • Still in Design history: "which as broadcast antenna do not count toward building height," Make the last word plural? In any case, the punctuation should be fixed.
  • Initial phases: Comma after October 28, 2004 would match the previous sentence.
  • "James McHugh Construction Co is contracted for the concrete work on this job." Has this been completed yet. If so it should be "was contracted".
  • Legal issues: I know I promised to stay out of the link controversy, but linking Ivanka Trump twice in two paragraphs just seems like too much.
  • "Donald Trump and his three adult children were overseeing the construction and standing in the spotlight with their father." Trump is standing in the spotlight with his father too? This could stand to be adjusted.
  • A couple Chicago Tribune links are expiring and two TrumpChicago.com pages apparently redirect to the front page. He's fired. :-)

: Reply It is not my intent to debate redundant links. I am willing to delink any such links you point out as most are included accidentally. My debate is about first instances of words such as geographic locations and full dates. You continue to ignore the policy guidelines that are relevant. Is there a reason why you are shifting the debate from the relevant policy guidelines I mention above to redundant links which I want help removing.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 16:11, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

  • Well, I did do you the service of delinking through many paragraphs at the top to "point out" examples; but you promptly reverted my work. Now the onus is on you to justify every one of those relinkings. Otherwise, please reinstate them. I suppose we can live with "skyscraper, but just run past me why the "internationals reader" (sic) needs a link to "sushi"? I'm going to persist here, because overlinking has been a persistent problem on WP, but we've been gradually winning the war against the previous undisciplined scattergun approach. I find your attitudes disturbing, against that of most other nominators, who are happy to comply when the argument against annoying links is put as part of the "professional standards of formatting" requirement. TONY (talk) 02:35, 4 July 2008 (UTC)
    • You continue to argue as if I have nothing, but blue links when my linke density is approximately the same as the prescribed desired amount in the example at WP:OVERLINK. You also ignore my responses to each of the words you removed. I assume you are attempting to ignore my responses by acting like the burden is on me to justify every one when I already have. Your "professional standards of formatting" argument continues to ignore the prescribed link density that I have achieved.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 07:15, 4 July 2008 (UTC)
TonyTheTiger, it would be helpful if you were more open-minded to Tony1's comments. After looking at his contribs, it seems as if he is well versed in formatting and style. Tony1, I think we need to remember all of TonyTheTiger's time which he has donated to this and other articles. While he may seem frustrated about your comments, it isn't surprising to me considering the effort he has put into this. And quoting another editor on a talk page and throwing in "(sic)" just doesn't seem to be in good taste :). Chupper (talk) 03:47, 4 July 2008 (UTC)
"He donates time? So do I, and when I go as far as editing part of an article to show what I'm talking about, it doesn't create a favourable attitude to be reverted summarily by the nominator. Nor will a reviewer typically react well when accused, in a very personal way, of bad faith. Specific futher response to nominator: WP:OVERLINK doesn't "prescribe" a level of linking, and if you are purposely trying to ramp up the level of linking, we'll get nowhere. I could accuse you of ignoring the MOS and guideline texts I've pasted in here; that's what it looks like. So why don't you use your "well-above average IQ" to reduce the link-farm clutter, instead of arguing in circles against my requests to bring this text into line with the norm in WP. It cuts no ice telling us here that you overlink by 50% as a policy.
Waiting for action. TONY (talk) 14:10, 4 July 2008 (UTC)
I commend you on your ability to be combative. You have spunk. However, above I have demonstrated the prescribed link density that comes from WP:OVERLINK. I have no more links than that which is endorsed as policy. I again remind you that I reverted you with full explaination of almost every term you needlessly delinked. I think this is the third or fourth time I have reminded you of this. Do you intend to contest the arguments that things like full dates and geographic locations are to be linked as per policy even though you delinked them?--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 00:22, 5 July 2008 (UTC)
  • It's not prescribed, it's an example of appalling overlinking. It's not policy, it's in guidelines. "Sushi" is not necessary to link for people you describe as "internationals" readers. Why on earth? Now, fully three reviewers have asked you to attend to the overlinking: Chupper, Laser brain, and me. Are we at an impasse, or are you going to be reasonable about it? You seem to have taken a belligerent approach, using erroneous or extreme interpretations of what you find in styleguides. Still waiting for a cooperative approach on this: when you agree, I'm willing to assist in the process of weeding out the trivials. I won't bother touching it until that agreement comes, since the ownership thing is getting in the way. TONY (talk) 05:25, 5 July 2008 (UTC)
  • Criterion 1c.

Criterion 1a—OK, time for a few spot-checks of the prose, and it doesn't scrub up well. The lead alone provides fertile grounds for critiquing.

  • We have "rising above" contrasting with "behind". Very odd.
  • Remove ", which is also located" as redundant. Remove the first word in "respective completions". There's a lot of "respective" hanging around.
  • "Building hosting"—avoid ing ing; it's easy to do so.
  • The design includes parking? Isn't parking an activity? The other items in that list are nominals.
  • "Favorable reviews FOR? Nope.
  • Now, when you say that the mezzanine-level hotel also opened to critical praise, this occurred 10 days before the referents for the "also". It wasn'ts "also" at the time, was it.
  • Floor-use caption: it would be nice to know whether WP has concocted this, or whether it's a product of the architects—oops, I need to link that, don't I: architects. We shouldn't have to go to the info page for such basic information. And it's a limited diagram, yes? Some reference to that, please. And there's still a MOS breach in the inclusion of a final dot.
  • Density of citation numbers, particularly in the lead: why are there ten of them in the final para of the lead, which comprises just five shortish sentences? I'd say it's overkill in quite a few instances through the article. Is this the same scattergun solution as for links? Just spread 'em all through like treacle, and you can't go wrong. Why does a simple, non-contested claim such as "The 339-room hotel opened for business with limited accommodation and service on 30 January 2008." come with a triple-bunger?
  • Why are the NYT and Chicago Tribune linked in every single citation? Breach of styleguides.
  • Ref 14: "week ended" or "week end"?
  • The publisher is named for most refs, so why is the URL instead named for "The Experience. trumpchicagohotel.com". Complete audit required. Why wasn't this done before nomination? These are basic issues that should not be concerning us here. Inappropriate.

Criterion 1e (stability)—I see that someone has previously raised the issue of the title, which every visitor would assume refers to a completed building. Then you see that it's a work in progress. The article is thus itself a work in progress, since it will need significant maintenance as the building work evolves. This is inherent instability, and breaches a fundamental criterion.

I am sure you know well by now that stability refers to edit warring. Much like WP:BLPs this article will evolve and require attention, but like BLPs it is very eligible. I am headed to the beach soon, but will look over the above list later. However, it seems that as you have in the past you have managed to wait until very well into discussion to give me feedback to respond to, which of course makes it difficult to address in advance of Sandy's decisions, but you are consistent in this strategy at least.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 17:41, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

And lots more. This is looking like a definite non-promotion at the moment. TONY (talk) 16:37, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

  1. "Project Overview" (PDF). Trump Organization. Retrieved 2008-05-18.
  2. See the pictures within the architectural design option of the main menu at http://www.trumpchicago.com/default2.asp
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