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Drafting

Just to keep parties and others up to date...

This started as a case that had a lot of claims that might be hard to evidence, as well as significant potential for "sprawl"/drama/confusion/heatedness, and it's therefore been given a fair bit of time for evidence to be heard and to 'bed in' (rather than assessing it too soon). In practice, the case has been somewhat smoother than it initially seemed it might, and in general, the Workshop pages have been used by participants and onlookers to produce some useful viewpoints and opinions too. (Thanks!)

Initial review of the case pages and evidence, while the rest of the case is posted up onto these pages, is likely to be taking place shortly by Arbitrators.

Just an FYI for all, to keep up to date.

FT2  11:57 (UTC), 31 May 2008

Thanks! any hint on things the committee would like to either see more of/have questions on/like more opinion about? --Rocksanddirt (talk) 06:08, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

I feel that the catharsis is nearly complete. Before disruptive elements move in and clutter the pages with endless arguments, perhaps now is an opportune moment to read them all and start drafting a decision. Jehochman 16:41, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

Valid point. some of that has already started. --Rocksanddirt (talk) 18:17, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

I agree that the collection of evidence and interpretation of it in the Workshop has had enough time, but I believe it'd be worthwhile to wait for this (see also here). dorftrottel (talk) 10:45, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

Hold your horses there cowboy! I have apologised for several of the things presented about me - and you can consider this an apology for any genuine (MONGO - telling you to pull the other leg is not uncivil) incivility on my part. I try to keep cool and most of the time I succeed but sometimes I act rashly in the heat of the moment. Apologies to those offended by my words or actions in said heat of moment. Viridae 13:08, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

Nice try...surely such less than half measures now exempt you from your admin transgressions.--MONGO 04:51, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

Viridae, I'm sure it would be appreciated if you summarised your acknowledgement of whatever parts of the evidence presented against your behaviour you think is valid and included related diffs or links, or repeated any apologies you think are appropriate here. I'm confident such a conciliable statement wouldn't go unnoticed by the ArbCom when they evaluate what to expect from each of the parties in the future. On the other hand, I'm also confident the ArbCom will take into account the de facto refusal of any party to acknowledge any part of the evidence presented against their behaviour as further evidence against that party. (Also, I never played the cowboy. I always was an Indian. You see, when we played as kids, the Indians always were the heroes, the cowboys were the villains; and since nobody wanted to be the cowboy, we mostly played happy community life instead of war. Weird Germans, hah?) dorftrottel (talk) 05:15, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

Minor apologies. The delay isn't due to discussional matters - it's more due to end of school year and "that time of year" of all things. A number of arbitrators have had family matters (family vacations, events, kids needing more attention than usual), wikibreak, and the like. Plus, I've been working on some fairly intense review cases that haven't really brooked delay. Let's try this again shall we? :)

FT2  09:01, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

In other words, the Arbcomites haven't even started looking into this case. 93.86.33.117 (talk) 14:11, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

Sounds good, just as long as it is taken seriously. Unlike the statement in the section below, there are some serious, long-term abuses that need examining. Misplaced Pages is being raked over the coals time and again for allowing administrators to get away with these abuses, both by the public and the mainstream media. I urge you to take both the evidence and the workshop seriously, there are scores of very valid concerns that some people would rather see swept under the rug. From experience, I think we should know that sweeping things under the rug only causes worse problems down the line. --Dragon695 (talk) 16:30, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

Unrealistic expectations

I don't think I've ever seen an arbitration workshop in such a "hanging" mood before--and to my mind the evidence doesn't seem to speak of massive abuse (by any party). With experience of previous cases I can't help feeling that, no matter what the proposed decision, there is likely to be a great deal of disappointment and frustration expressed on this talk page in due course. --Anticipation of a New Lover's Arrival, The 16:07, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

I think the Mantanmoreland case had a similar 'hanging' mood about it. --Rocksanddirt (talk) 20:18, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

Tony makes an astute, if obvious, observation, no matter what happens in this case, someone will be disappointed. Oddly, I suspect that is the case in every case brought before the committee, although certainly more so for some than others. I'd opine that the reason the mood seems "hanging" is that the evidence seems strong, contrary to what Tony seems to think, that there are serious matters in need of addressing... and that we've been hanging around for a month now waiting to see what ArbCom was going to start doing (or not doing). I am hoping we aren't going to be kept hanging too much longer... ++Lar: t/c 04:45, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

FT2 has just posted on the Proposed Decision Talk Page explaining that things have been a bit backed up for various reasons, apologizing for the delay, and saying he's hoping things are back on track. See for more info. SirFozzie (talk) 09:10, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

This is the proposed decision talk page. --B (talk) 21:15, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

This tread has been moved around. Viridae 22:24, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

Yes, I'd forgotten about the mood of the Mantanmoreland case. I think the evidence was also equivocal there, and (more to the point) there was apparently unrelated ill feeling which clouded perceptions and led to disappointment. I hope the Committee will grasp the opportunity to deal with that ill-feeling (which seems to involve many but not all of those involved here) and help to clarify what is best for Misplaced Pages. --Anticipation of a New Lover's Arrival, The 19:47, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

Yes, and not repeat their mistakes from the Mantanmoreland case. Which was, to remind everyone, coming up with a wishy-washy statement that pleased nobody and saved them from making any sort of call, only to get egg on their collective face when the fellow ignored them and happened to be caught purely fortuitously a little later. And to call any ill feeling here "unrelated" requires remarkable ability to ignore diffs. --19:53, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

I live in hope. --Rocksanddirt (talk) 21:25, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

Wasn't the nice thing about the Mantanmoreland case that, if it turned out that he really was an incorrigible sock, we'd all be happy to see him go? And so it transpired. His recidivist socking was detected by checkuser in late April, blocked and then community banned without any dissent. None of this "he said lipstick on a pig and we think he went for a holiday in India because he edited after 8am GMT" nonsense. No need for all that kerfuffle over what turned out to be a very finely judged arbitration indeed. --Jenny 04:55, 2 July 2008 (UTC)

Well, I think the evidence presented at the arbcom hearing was pretty clear that he was an incorrigible hosiery abuser. It just took a couple of extra months to show his defenders. --Rocksanddirt (talk) 05:53, 2 July 2008 (UTC)

This was a guy with a history of socking, but the fact is that at the time of arbitration none of the checkusers were able to make a definitive statement based on checkuser data. Moreover the arbitration committee (all of whom would, at least in principle, have been able to see such checkuser data as was available) wasn't able to reach a comfortable consensus that there was ongoing socking. That tells me there was a little more going on than mere "defenders". We had to wait for actual evidence of ongoing sock abuse, that's all.

The guy clearly couldn't help himself, which is a known pattern with repeated sock abusers. --Jenny 06:24, 2 July 2008 (UTC)

I don't like the 'defender' lingo, as it strikes me as unnecessarily antagonistic. I believe the AC (honorably but somewhat feebly) attempted to find a compromise which of course could only result in no action taken. But I for one did think back then and still do that the Evidence presented by G-Dett was both elegant and fully conclusive. Everyme (was Dorftrottel) (talk) 11:46, 2 July 2008 (UTC)

Well to some of us that just looked like an exercise in wishful thinking, an essay. I note also that G-Dett's evidence was largely an attempt to prove, not that Mantanmoreland was actively socking, but that he was Gary Weiss, which was hardly the point. Mantanmoreland was sanctioned for socking and in the end he was banned for socking. It doesn't matter who he was; if he'd been involved in making seriously damaging edits rather than (for the most part) removing such edits, it would have been disruptive no matter who he was. If he was Gary Weiss, that would explain his protectiveness about Gary Weiss (not a bad thing in itself) and his occasional glee at finding yet another unflattering press description of Byrne's (self-admittedly flamboyant) behavior. A little light mischief at most. Bagley's and Byrne's silly campaigns and their external websites, by contrast, are crude and obviously malicious. They provided us with an object lesson in how not to influence our encyclopedic content. --Jenny 12:38, 2 July 2008 (UTC)

Indeed much worse than the way Weiss tried to influence our encyclopedic content by sockpuppeting. And that's not ironically spoken. Everyme (was Dorftrottel) (talk) 14:40, 2 July 2008 (UTC)

Dear WP:RPA Committee;

Do you ever intend to actually do anything with this case? The appearance is that you (collectively) may be drahma-addicted, and now that you're bored with this you've moved on to the next Gianno-related bloodletting. - brenneman 00:46, 2 July 2008 (UTC)

You and Irpen should form a club, it seems like you'd find a lot of new members right now. Just curious, though, is it possible for anyone to address the Committee these days without insulting them? --InkSplotch (talk) 01:07, 2 July 2008 (UTC)

That's a fair point, and I am trying to drag myself away from the keyboard before I invent any new insults. When dealing with the individual members I am (I think) always polite, but the collective group is operating so sub-optimally right now that it becomes difficult to contain my frustration. Particularly since we're given so little information about the committee's brain, I'm reduced to kicking and screaming.

My experiance with committees is that in camera decisions tend to protect the least competent, and I'm tipping here that there are (at most) three members who are screwing the pooch for all the others. If we start to see the committee as individuals with actual rational thought processes, we could probably move forward more effectivly. Open up ArbCom discussions and let us see how the sausages are being made, perhaps my "input" could take on a less adversarial tone.

brenneman 01:18, 2 July 2008 (UTC)

There's a somewhat more obvious (to my mind, at least) reason for the slow speed with which this case is proceeding. ;-) Kirill 01:39, 2 July 2008 (UTC)

The Arena football playoffs? --B (talk) 01:46, 2 July 2008 (UTC)

I could write it myself in ten seconds: all parties to write a 5,000 word essay discussing the phrase "Misplaced Pages is not a battleground" with examples of how they themselves have failed to live up to it. --Jenny 02:32, 2 July 2008 (UTC)

At last... a reason I can understand and support for your wanting to be a party to this case, Tony! More seriously... Kirill, I would like to hear the reason/issue, and also know if the committee is in need of anything from the community on this, such as additional evidence, more workshop work, or anything else? Or is it all internal? ++Lar: t/c 04:06, 2 July 2008 (UTC)

Luke 15:7, John 8:2-11. --Jenny 04:45, 2 July 2008 (UTC)

It's somewhat simplistic, actually: with Newyorkbrad gone and myself recused, neither of the usual decision-drafting arbs is available for this case. Kirill 12:08, 2 July 2008 (UTC)

Yep. FloNight♥♥♥ 12:12, 2 July 2008 (UTC)

@ Kirill, Yes, that one wasn't that hard to figure out. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 12:46, 2 July 2008 (UTC)

Look above. An essay competition and two scripture references. What more do you need in the way of drafting? :) --Jenny 12:14, 2 July 2008 (UTC)

I can think of a dozen people who could do it rather quickly. Are we really saying that Arbcom is this wrecked that they can't do what the rest of us could? Weighted Companion Cube (are you still there?/don't throw me in the fire) 14:26, 2 July 2008 (UTC)

Reply to Kirill - I would still request that you 'un-recuse' the scope of this case has gone beyond what it was initially, and is sufficiently personal that I would still want the whole committee to be in on the deliberations, even if some then decide not to vote. --Rocksanddirt (talk) 16:29, 2 July 2008 (UTC)

@Kirill: I would also strongly request that you un-recuse yourself. There is a standing request that another arbitrator recuse themselves... one that I think has a strong reason to do so, and who has apparently started commenting here. Your reason is weak to nonexistent, in my view. But, I suspect that if it's drafting the decision that really is the problem, there is the workshop. If the proposals aren't to your liking, perhaps contact privately some folk who are close and ask for a redraft? I'm sure that drafting the decision (once you've decided what it is you want to decide) isn't going to be that hard. I think the broad outlines of what the remedy ought to look like are already present in the workshop. (if you discount the minority view that Cla68 be thrown to the wolves and his valid concerns dismissed, which really is quite unsupportable) ++Lar: t/c 21:06, 2 July 2008 (UTC)

I have no idea if you are talking about me. But if you are, I'm inactive on this case and noted that I plan to remain that way on the Clerks page when I returned from my month long break. I have not read anything about the case and do not plan to participate in it. My above comment was confined to a procedural matter. On my return I was surprised that the case had not been drafted yet. I'm concerned by the delay in the case and my only participation will be sorting out what needs to happen to get this cases moving the same as several other cases that have been slow to close. FloNight♥♥♥ 21:20, 2 July 2008 (UTC)

I think you have a very clear conflict of interest, so compelling of one in fact, that you should recuse, not merely state that you are "inactive and planning to stay that way". The difference may be moot, practically, but perceptually, it is vast. I would think that a good arbitrator, especially at this particular point, would clearly see that. I again directly call for your recusal. I think it should be clear to everyone that you will not be voting in this case. ++Lar: t/c 21:42, 2 July 2008 (UTC)

Well, this case has been the last thing on my mind since I've been away for a more than a month and I wrote a brief note to the clerks on my return thinking of the more practical aspect of letting them know that I was back. I already wrote to Cla on seeing your earlier comment. I apologized for any stress that I might have caused him by not knowing my status and made it clear that I do not plan to participate in any way in the case. If it caused you stress or concern I apologize to you as well. FloNight♥♥♥ 22:01, 2 July 2008 (UTC)

We need more ex-clerks on the Committee. :-) Jehochman 21:22, 2 July 2008 (UTC)

;-) FloNight♥♥♥ 21:25, 2 July 2008 (UTC)

Could somebody explain the grounds for the request for recusal more clearly, please? That an arbitrator has in the past made friendly statements about one party to the arbitration, and opposed another's bid for adminship, it seems to me, is ridiculously weak. There must be more to it than that. --Jenny 01:14, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

It that's weak, then why is Kirill recused because he works closely with Cla at MilHist? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 01:19, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

Now that sounds like a sensible reason to recuse--an ongoing relationship or dispute with one of the parties. If FloNight has such a relationship or dispute, she should recuse. But "once said nice things about" and "opposed for adminship" are a long way short of that. --Jenny 03:06, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

As hard as it is to imagine for people following the situation, I have no idea what the case is about. I've been away for more than a month and never read the case before or after I left. I thought that I was going to be away when it was voted on since I was traveling for my son's wedding in the Virgin Islands and then had celebrations back home. When I came back I stayed inactive because I knew nothing about the case. I looked at the case pages today to try and understand the delay in drafting the case. I saw some rumbling about a recuse and checked and decided to recuse. It really makes no difference since I was not going to work on the case one way or the the other. But if I can ease minds in any way I want to do so. FloNight♥♥♥ 03:01, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

I find it highly suspicious that of all the islands to have a wedding at that the Virgin Islands were chosen. Must you shove your blatant conflict of interest in our faces at every opportunity?? ;-) daveh4h 04:14, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

;-) FloNight♥♥♥ 11:07, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

Let's just get this resolved if we can. I doubt that the efforts to "get" SlimVirgin are just going to go away on their own without some sort of arbcom statement to Cla68 and the other WR and Hivemind partisans to backoff.--MONGO 23:15, 2 July 2008 (UTC)

Or is it the other way around ...? Naerii 23:47, 2 July 2008 (UTC)

Can we get a little agile development methodology here, please? Have one of the clerks write up the decision, then start voting and tweaking. Jehochman 01:29, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

I've always wondered why that wasn't done in the workshop pages. It seems pointless to me that we cannot work together to craft these decisions, rather than having this kind if "it's not my job" bottleneck to the work. The inherent flaws in Jehochman's proposal are that

• Why do we presume that clerks have any better idea at what might get voted in that anyone else, and more to the point
• Why should they be allowed to serve as that kind of gatekeeper?

Does no one recall that cler's "summary" function was rejected by the community, and having them right up proposed decisions makes them Jr. Arbs. A better solution would be to have the arbs make the effort to take part in the workshop page and just vote on the proposals already there. I'd hate to think that we're so beaurocratitc that the commitee can't decide on a porposal until a servant gently flaps the right ear of the commitee on the proposed decision page. - brenneman 02:26, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

Totally agree. Daniel (talk) 02:28, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

This I don't agree with. Daniel (talk) 02:37, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

I think aaron will actually help, you know! - If it helps stop making heads explode, I'm certainly prepared to endorse him as a clerk.... that old 'comment on content, not the contributor' thing (and yeah yeah, it means article space.....) actually applies really well here too. It's a good edit - it helps, and that's far more important that whether or not he's 'allowed' to do it. P'raps he's just ignoring a rule? :-) cheers, Privatemusings (talk) 02:40, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

predictable, I suppose

Clinging to paperwork even when the system isn't working? Don't let me stop you. - brenneman 02:41, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

• Clerks have never had sanction to write the proposed decision, our ability to edit that page is limited to formatting, typos and such. Aaron is certainly not in a position to appoint himself as clerk and drastically expand the scope of the office in one edit. Thatcher 02:43, 3 July 2008 (UTC)
  • I think a clerk could read the workshop, see what proposals have the most support, and put them forward in an organized manner for voting. Voting on the workshop page would be messy because of the length, redundancy, and back and forth debates. Why not have clerks distill what's there and then let the arbitrators have at it. Clerks are trusted to only clerk in cases where they are impartial, and not to edit war with each other. Jehochman 02:48, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

Possibly, however expanding the scope of the clerk function in that way would require the assent of Arbcom and is not something to do on the spur of the moment. It's nice to think that all the clerks are trusted and respected (and I hope that is true) but it hasn't always been so, and as a result the clerks themselves are probably most reluctant to assign themselves new tasks. Thatcher 02:51, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

In real life courts the clerks write the opinions, and then the judges sign them. This is nothing new. We are lucky to have many fine, level headed people around the wiki who work quietly, without drama, and don't seek power. Those would be the folks you want to recruit as clerks. Arbcom, what do you say? Taking the workshop and distilling it to final proposals is precisely a clerical task. This would also encourage you all to make your feelings known on the Workshop page, rather than using your "super secret" list to make a backroom decision. I think more openness would immensely help the Committee's reputation. Jehochman 02:57, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

• No way, Aaron. You don't get to do that. If you are actually attempting to do anything other than make a rather ridiculous point, I suggest here or here. Oh, and FloNight is recused, so making this request to her is bizarre at best. Sam Korn 02:44, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

well I thought it helped. No biggie, I guess - bit of a shame though. Privatemusings (talk) 02:47, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

• • (ECX3) I'm not trying to make a ridiculous point. See User_talk:FloNight#Request_for_temporary_clerkship where I've made an utterly serious proposal. ( I asked her because she was recused, but *shrug* if you disagree that's fine.) If we're actually saying that the reson that this case isn't proceeding is that because no one has written anything down on the "correct" page then please let someone do that. Regenerate this has made the offer half-in jest, but if he would be more acceptable to your clerkships (based upon his former fez-hood) I'd be happy to see him follow my lead here. - brenneman 02:49, 3 July 2008 (UTC)
    • If you want to seriously propose principles etc. for a decision, you know the appropriate venues, and you know that those venues do not include this page. Sam Korn 02:52, 3 July 2008 (UTC)
      • I have written workshops that were lifted almost intact and pasted onto the PD page. It's a skill that few people seem to have mastered, and a well-written workshop is a gift from the gods to the Arbitrators. If you can write a brilliant decision then put it on the workshop and if it really is good, it will get used. Thatcher 02:55, 3 July 2008 (UTC)
        • Right. When workshopping is done well, the arbs can copy and paste and sign, as is being proposed here. There is no need for anyone to add content to the PD page in a misguided effort to assist the committee. Anyone can go to the Workshop page and try to improve it, or distill it. I think privatemusings even offered to do that. John Vandenberg 03:03, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

(outdent) Has anyone created a meaningful objection to the arbs actually using the workshop page? That it "would be messy" is a fairly weak argument, just create a section for arb's oppose support and let them rip. Are we really saying that the arbs are going to be confused by looking at a proposal on other that the sancrosect page? If there's something that's lacking overall it's engagement by the committee on ongoin cases. All we see is drive-by voting on a little island of a page. Either open up the floodgates to this page (since there appears to be no meaningful reason that this case is stalled) or don't be so damn lazy that a copy/paste is equired before you can vote.

When did we all get so hidebound by "process" anyway? Wasn't that the reason proferred by the speedyness of the OrangeMarlin case, that it was important to get the right thing done, not to fill out the puce form in triplicate?

brenneman 03:33, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

A couple of arb.s commented on the use of the Workshop page / how they go about things here (which also contains some of my views on the matter...(should we do a page move to the ''Doesn't really Work'shop? - maybe!). Privatemusings (talk) 03:39, 3 July 2008 (UTC)I've got an idea that editorial clerking might actually help in some contexts, but haven't found the time to demonstrate what I mean (yet!)..... sorry John!

Obviously it would be sheer chaos to mix arbitrator proposals and voting (which are binding) with community proposals and comments (which are not). And that's putting it mildly. Why would we want to make things worse? --Jenny 03:40, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

yeah - that does sound crazy! - on the other hand, aaron's edit wasn't exactly the most violently anarchistic action I've witnessed! - I think it helped. Privatemusings (talk) 03:45, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

"Obviously?" Your perspicacity clearly exceeds my own. How would a section, titled something like "only for arbs to oppose/support don't touch!" where they could indicate how they felt about a proposal, be chaos? Gosh, how about we just use the existing "Comment by Arbitrators:" section? If there is any concern about audit trail, let them include a diff to the version they are supporting/opposing. Is that really so cats-and-dogs-lying down together crazy? - brenneman 03:50, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

They do have a a section marked don't touch, it's called the proposed decision page. Some proposed decisions appear out of nowhere, and are probably drafted and commented on on the Arbcom wiki or the mailing list, or are created here de novo by an arbitrator. Others are lifted from the workshop, if it is a good one. Write a good workshop, if you feel strongly. Thatcher 05:08, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

I rather think the salient point may be the relevance or otherwise of the Workshop pages to the final decision, and the fact that the community voice somehow seems rather muted. This, when combined with the fact that it's very hard to see any momentum at all in what one would hope would be a case with a high priority, is a bit of a worry. We've also recently seen problems with some decisions that appear out of nowhere. It's hard for me not to agree that there aren't systemic problems, and insofar as Aaron editing the decision page reflects an idea to modify a broken system, I think it's a good thing. Privatemusings (talk) 05:24, 3 July 2008 (UTC)we've strayed into RfC territory really, so I'll step back in this location....

all for one or flying solo

Maybe I'm misremembering but I seem to recall the workshop pages of a year or two back sometimes getting pretty close to the final decision, including having arbitrators comment on some of the planks to help hone what was needed. I daresay that the move to having each set of principles/findings/remedies associated with a different person may have lessened that, though... perhaps it's time to try moving back to one amalgamated set? ++Lar: t/c 05:35, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

I believe that's a very recent change. Yonks ago I recall when the workshops were new, less well known, and much quieter, it was relatively easy to draft a substantial part of the eventual final decision on the workshop itself--proposals would be lifted wholesale to the proposed decision and passed.

While this does still happen, there is nowadays a more pronounced tendency for the workshop to get very busy, which of course increases the chance that it will state a version of the problem that quickly diverges from what the arbitrators think is most important for Misplaced Pages. The badlydrawnjeff case, as long ago as eighteen months ago, was the first case in which I noticed such a large divergence.

In the circumstances, the new "one set of proposals per user" model may actually work better, by encouraging those who are good at drafting proposals to have a go at specifying the problem. --Jenny 06:06, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

The current fractured approach certianly isn't condusive to actual discussion. Looking at the workshop page, is there some reason that (just for example) the proposed remedies

1. 4.1.3.3 SlimVirgin desysopped
2. 4.1.3.4 SlimVirgin placed on civility parole
3. 4.5.2.2 SlimVirgin commended
4. 4.6.3.2 SlimVirgin 1RR
5. 4.8.3.4 SlimVirgin administrator privileges are revoked, and
6. 4.18.2.2 SlimVirgin and JzG restricted from alleging harassment

Could not all sensibly discussed in one section?

brenneman 06:08, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

Well they absolutely COULD. But they are kinda apart from each other. Ok, well there is one outlyer, the commendation one... give that one the rightful death it deserves, maybe? Then it becomes a matter of what is the best remedy to deal with a long term positive contributor who has also had a long term corrosive effect, rather than a "wonderful/not wonderful" question. ++Lar: t/c 12:18, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

With respect to the "pronounced tendency for the workshop to get very busy" Dorftrottel and Anticipation of a New Lover's Arrival, The have made over 20% of the last 500 edits to the workshop page, and that Tony alone has made over 20% of the total edits to this page. Draw what conclusion you will from these data points, but perhaps some upper limit on how much each person can contribute would be helpful. - brenneman 06:19, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

Do you take issue at any particular edits I made, or do you see any particular problem with the number or proportion of edits I made? If so, please state it plainly and I'll see how I can improve, if simply by walking away. Everyme (was Dorftrottel) (talk) 08:13, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

The workshop isn't really much use for discussion. Really it's just a place for developing proposals, which may be cherry-picked by the arbitrators. A little discussion happens on the way and (in some cases) may help to resolve the situation, but usually the problem in arbitration cases cannot be resolved by discussion--otherwise it would not be at arbitration. --Jenny 06:35, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

How many of the workshopped proposals in a case typically get used by the arbitrators these days? Not necessarily passed, but added to the Proposed Decision page. If not many are, and the proposals that do appear in the /Proposed Decision page come from elsewhere (the Arbcom private Wiki, the mailing list, out of the fecund minds of the arbitrators, wherever), then I would question the value of a /Workshop subpage altogether. If I was being cynical, I would say it does have purpose (lets people blow off steam, lets people think they are making a significant contribution, keeps Tony away from sharp objects), but not value. Neıl 龱 09:13, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

I've helped draft and tweak certain proposals (used in final decisions) in a few cases - through the workshop page.... :) Ncmvocalist (talk) 09:50, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

Comparison of workshop and proposed decision

Neil asks: How many of the workshopped proposals in a case typically get used by the arbitrators these days?

Anyone can look at the workshop and proposed decision pages of a recent arbitration, Homeopathy, say, and see which proposals made it into the mix. Eleven editors made a total of about 50 proposals.

Of the five proposed principles, all were stock principles developed in previous cases, and two of those had been workshopped by Kirill Lokshin, an arbitrator. Four of the five passed.

Of the two proposed findings of fact, one of them (DanaUllman) resembled a more verbose proposal workshopped by Moreschi, and both passed.

Of the five proposed remedies, one of them (Discretionary sanctions) resembled a more elaborate and explicit version of a proposal workshopped by Vassyana (Community discretion). Only two of the five proposed remedies passed.

The proposed and final decisions aren't so far removed from the workshop, the problem seems to have been framed in similar ways in both places, but the principles and findings in the proposed decision tend to be more parsimonious or conservative in scope than those in the workshop, and one of the remedies in the proposed decision appears to me considerably more adventurous than any proposed in the workshop. The more adventurous proposed remedy came fairly close to passing, so in this case the result was quite close to the workshop, but this could well be mainly because Kirill floated a lot of the principles in the workshop. --Jenny 10:04, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

So in the Homeopathy case, there were fifty proposals on /Workshop, of which two (4%) made it onto /Proposed decision. And those two were modified (one distilled, one enhanced). The other nine proposals on /Proposed decision were not particularly based on anything done in the workshop.

That does lend credence to my suspicion that expending too much energy on the /Workshop subpage is becoming a futile exercise. Neıl 龱 10:21, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

Blame the participants for that. In contentious cases the workshops seem to be used more for scoring points than anything else. Thatcher 10:44, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

The evidence page is more use in complex cases where everybody is shouting. --Jenny 10:58, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

Blame the participants as in all the participants? Everyme (was Dorftrottel) (talk) 01:33, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

There's some truth to both the "blame the participants" and "scroing points" comments. I'm more guilty than most (but not as much as some.) If the committee was more active, however, the noise ratio would drop quickly: Three quick comments by Arbs to the tune of "don't be daft" or "can it" when I start adding nonsense to a workshop page would rapidly make the page more useful. Same goes for "evidence" that's just puffed up opion: If an active arb dropped the hammer the first time it happened, then there would be less chance for it to happen again. It's been said many times: If the commitee is going to keep complaining about the workload, and about not reading submissions, then either get out of the way and let others do the useful work, or tell us what is actually helping them. Otherwise we flail around to no end. Think of the excellent work on the MM case that was mostly for nought. brenneman 01:43, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Per Tony, IIRC (and subject to correction if I've misinterpreted the gist), there was no excellent work on the MM case, merely a great deal of evidence that meant nothing, a great deal of analysis that was obviously fundamentally flawed (because analysis and evidence are out weighed by people's gut feeling that they can spot socks) although Tony couldn't say why exactly. No, no excellent work there. Except by ArbCom itself, which produced an absolutely brilliant solution, shame on us for not instantly agreeing. Also per Tony, IIRC (and subject... ditto), really there is no justification for removing evidence that is just puffed up opinion, because if you do so, you remove Tony's entire contribution to the evidence, which would be exceedingly unfortunate. Per Tony, anyway. ++Lar: t/c 02:37, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

You've misread my statements. On my evidence, see here. On the Mantanmoreland case evidence, see here for a recent summary. Use of sarcasm in that way is not effective unless your aim is precise.

Moreover I do not believe there is any shame involved in your dissent, although the wisdom of the arbitration committee's decision has been amply proven by events. There was no consensus for a community ban until checkuser evidence was procured showing that he had egregiously broken an editing restriction imposed in the case. The judge is happy because orderliness and sober assessment of evidence, and not a group of angry citizens, decided the case. The copper is happy because he was convinced the fellow was a wrong'un all along.

I think I can summarise my position as: submission of evidence and analysis does not equate to convincing the Committee. As frail humans, we often grossly miscalculate the persuasive power of our own statements and greatly underestimate the persuasive power of the statements of others. --Jenny 02:55, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

Tony, I was completely serious in my characterization of what I believe your views are, without a shred of sarcasm. As for "any shame involved" ... have no fear, I am not the one that needs to worry on that score. The wisdom of the arbitration committee's decision has been amply DISproven, rather than proven, by events, I would say. That you and others were able to manipulate the discussion on a community ban to prevent the proper outcome until more time was wasted... well, I won't say you SHOULD be ashamed, although I could. We have no judges here, and no coppers. Only citizens. You should be cognizant of that. Finally, I think you have indeed grossly miscalculated the persuasive power of your own statements in this matter, since you indeed remain in the minority. As you did in MM. I am not sure I find your participation here completely helpful. ++Lar: t/c 03:57, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

My use of the "judge" and "copper" simile were perhaps a little too oblique for you. I was referring to two very different approaches to natural justice. The copper doesn't need evidence, he can smell a wrong'un. The judge insists on standards and believes that it is in all our interests to refrain from the urge to relax those standards because to do so would be popular. --Jenny 04:15, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

OK, in the MM case then, we had the AC "coppers" saying "MM doesn't smell bad, so let's let it slide" and the community "judges" saying "look at all this voluminious evidence showing that MM is socking and carrying on, it's detailed, it's meticulous, it's sound, why let go based on gut?"... ++Lar: t/c 05:01, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

You refer to myself and others (some of whom you are aware are administrators) "manipulating" a discussion on a community ban. You are of course aware of what our banning policy says about failure of consensus for a community ban due to disagreement among uninvolved administrators. It follows that there was no manipulation. Stating an honest intention to unblock an editor is not manipulation. --Jenny 04:15, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

As I said on my talk, conversations can be manipulated in many ways. There was a failure to reach consensus, but that does not mean that the process was not somehow manipulated. ++Lar: t/c 05:01, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

I beg you to rethink your final statements. You appear to be implying that you do not welcome reasoned expression of a minority viewpoint. I cannot believe that my friend Lar, or any Wikipedian, would say such a thing. --Jenny 04:15, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

I absolutely disagree with that, because I of course welcome reasoned expression of minority viewpoints, as should we all. I just don't think that there is a lack of consensus about this case the way you do. You are in the minority. Reasoned expression is helpful. Not all of your statements in this matter have been reasoned, though, my friend. Which pains me, since I early on looked to you for guidance in the way of the wiki. How far we have diverged, Tony. (sorry for threading inbetween but there were a number of points, I can dup if it's a big deal) ++Lar: t/c 05:01, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

I have taken this to Lar's talk page as it seems to be more of an interpersonal dialog than a discussion of this case. --Jenny 06:12, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

As below, prematurely archived, but meh. ++Lar: t/c 12:22, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

cut to the slow speed chase...

I summarized the principles, findings, and rememdies from the workshop page here. I reduced some of the reduncancy, combined some items, and left out some that I felt were irrelevant. I took out the discussions, excpet comments that seemed really germain to explaining the item. I would not characterize this as a draft proposed decision, but as a summary of the workshop page. --Rocksanddirt (talk) 17:36, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

Nice work. However there are a few things missing from it such as WMC's proposed items. Those did not exactly meet with universal acclaim so omission may be a good "sense of the community". Maybe adding some nose counts would be helpful. And maybe, actually, since we do not vote, it would not be. But I think you are to be commended for a very good distillation. Thanks! ++Lar: t/c 18:33, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

I left out the ones that I think are totally irrelevant (user is commended and crap like that). I wouldn't want to try and evaluate the users for and against, as so much of it in this instance was discussion and commentary, not so much support/unsupport. And there is also I think a fair bit of useful material in the analysis and general comments section that could/should be evaluated by those making any decisions. --Rocksanddirt (talk) 19:09, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

{{archivetop}}

In a case where the community has failed to resolve a long-running dispute, the "sense of the community" may not be particularly useful. --Jenny 01:51, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

Perhaps individuals working individually all failed to resolve it. There is a problem here that this case addresses. That it was possible to subvert the way we do things by undermining one voice at a time is, really, the crux of the problem. But perhaps by speaking collectively the community will succeed, where individual voices were drowned out, or defeated in detail, if you like. (use of battle metaphors saddens me, frankly, but they fit.) That the community succeeds is my fervent hope. ++Lar: t/c 02:31, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

My reading of this case is, in all honesty, very different from yours. I cannot account for the difference because I do not know how your mind works, but I can say that the difference in our intepretation, and the diversity of evidence presented, is a strong indication that there is no consensus on the problem, or even who is its principal cause. Therefore it's clearly something only the arbitration committee can resolve. As I stated earlier, I believe that unrealistic expectatios have been raised, as they were in the Mantanmoreland case, and there will be substantial disappointment no matter what the final decision. --Jenny 03:05, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

Consensus does not require unanimous consent, thank goodness, and allows for minority views. I suspect your view does not match actual community consensus on what the crux of the matter is, and what needs to be done to remedy it. I suspect I am not alone in that belief. ++Lar: t/c 03:52, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

There is no community consensus on this matter. That's why it's before the arbitration committee. Different parties see the same facts in different ways, emphasis is placed on different areas of policy. In addition, all of the parties involved are well respected, well established, valuable contributors. I've told the committee that I don't envy their task in deciding where the best interests of Misplaced Pages lie, but as I've said on the workshop and elsewhere I think the biggest failing in the case, is the failure of all parties to assume good faith on the part of other editors. --Jenny 04:03, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

Um, no. There clearly is failure to assume good faith but it's not at all an equal failure among all parties. Much of the failure can be attributed to a very few folk. Further, this matter is before the Arbitration Committee because the AC voted to accept it when FM brought a spurious case against Cla68 rather than sanctioning FM for foolishness. As it turns out, the case now could address more fundamental issues... Many cases come to ArbCom not for mere lack of consensus, but rather for some intractable problem in applying that consensus. This particular case clearly has backfired on FM and SV, since the vast majority of evidence presented has demonstrated that the issue lies with FM, and with SV, not with Cla68. (note that I am completely ignoring the JzG/V part of the case here, since it is really a separate case that ArbCom foolishly combined, and because it's easier to resolve... JzG needs to stick to his word to try to do better, and JzG and V need to stay away from each other, no real ArbCom muscle is needed) Consensus, judging from the discussion on the workshop pages, seems clear on the outlines of where the problem lies. Whether the AC will do the right thing, whether the AC will assist the community in applying behavioural standards when onesie twosie actions have been overcome by tagteam serial reverting and by poisoning wells and by other manipulative behaviour remains to be seen. Do not confuse lack of consensus with lack of ability to apply consensus. The community needs help applying consensus, not help in determining it. Unless I am very much mistaken, that is. Time will tell. ++Lar: t/c 04:55, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

{{archivebottom}} Um... this is a talk page. That was an active discussion, with new points relevant to this case being brought out in each post. I'd say premature archive, whoever did it, but meh. If I'm the only person that thinks Tony is in the minority on his view of this case, that lack of consensus is not the only reason that cases come to arbcom, that this case backfired, that the outcome is clear if arbcom will only apply it, or any of the other things I raised, I'd be interested to know that. ++Lar: t/c 12:20, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

I stipulate that I'm in the minority and that lack of consensus isn't the only reason why cases come to arbitration. The rest is up to the arbitrators to decide, and whilst I have opinions I don't make any predictions except that, whatever happens, there is likely to be significant disappointment. So actually, there's very little for us to discuss that is relevant to the case or interesting to anyone else. --Jenny 13:15, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

Well then, if you already agreed with me, why did you waste my time and everyone else's? As per usual (20% of all comments in the MM ban discussion from you alone, I heard somewhere... if that's not manipulative, what is?), you do tend to go on. More fool me for replying, I suppose. I do still think there are substantive points made in the above, and am interested in the views of others on that. You and I exchanged posts very late in the US night, on the day before a big holiday, so traffic would naturally be lower than normal. I removed the archive tagging since discussion continues. If someone NEW restores it, they should move it down below this bit too, I suppose. ++Lar: t/c 13:25, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

I dont see much sense in archiving any of the above, but I dont see much point in the two gents continuing to discuss it either. Especially when they could be discussing this. I think it would be helpful for it to be moved to Misplaced Pages:Requests_for_arbitration/C68-FM-SV/Workshop/Merged, and checked thrice over to ensure it encapsulates the workshopping done so far. It might even be worth notifying everyone who presented evidence or worked on the workshop. John Vandenberg 15:27, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

move done. please review. Maybe next would be to link to the specific evidence to go with each finding? --Rocksanddirt (talk) 16:05, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

Proposed closure based on protraction

I drafted a new proposed decision and posted it to the workshop . My proposal is based purely on how this case is handled.

In view of the fact that the ArbCom is unable to identify bad conduct of any party here or propose what to do, it should not keep the open case and parties' uncertainty. The matters would go back to the community that will at least try to solve it.

If ArbCom is unable to handle this case due to its being busy or lazy or incompetent or too timid, it should just admit that it has no solution and close the case. At least it would be more honest and more fair than keeping parties nervous and itself badly embarrassed by its maintaining this many months long case open and doing nothing. --Irpen 03:43, 6 July 2008 (UTC)

I agree, it is unfair to keep parties in the ducking stool for so long, though I'd like to see firm action taken to prevent future abuses. Jehochman 03:56, 6 July 2008 (UTC)

I don't see anyone complaining, and I don't see any reason not to rule on the issues. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 03:59, 6 July 2008 (UTC)

No matter what the issues are, if the arbitrators have not done anything for months on this case, what can change to make them do it? Lack of time just does not cut it. They had plenty of time. They don't see the solution? Well, what would make them see it all of a sudden if they could not until now. Even if they are continuously "brainstorming" and could not come up with anything for so long, why do you think they will ever will. It's not like 2-3 weeks of intence brainstorming. It's more like two-three months. No amount of brainstorming can help arbcom solve issues that is too complex for them, be it cure AIDS or build a Chevy Volt. So, if this task is also beyond their competence, they should at least openly admit it. --Irpen 04:42, 6 July 2008 (UTC)

Arbcom is well known to take its own sweetass time. This is hardly the first time it takes awhile, and hardly the longest. SchmuckyTheCat (talk)

It's a big case with lots to be considered and I am sure they have discussed matters in depth between themselves and have yet to reach consensus on major issues. It's not likely they have chosen to ignore this.--MONGO 11:00, 6 July 2008 (UTC)

The paranoid side of me wonders if this wasn't intentional on arbcom's part - delay ruling until it is moot. But then again, I'm paranoid. --B (talk) 12:59, 6 July 2008 (UTC)

That's Zen dispute resolution. If it works... --Jenny 13:06, 6 July 2008 (UTC)