Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 04:12, 9 July 2008

• Archive 1 (September, 2006)
• Archive 2 (August, 2007)
• Archive 3 (January, 2008)

primary source

Sorry for top-posting, your talk page is a little confusing. Thank you for pointing out the policy on primary sources. I had assumed that actually citing what he said was better than citing someone else citing what he said. I was listening to a radio program with an expert analysis of the matter this morning on a way to a clients site. It seems that Ratzinger originally said "in the context of the time it was a fair trial" but the BBC article seemed to have skipped the part about the "in the context of the time". I would cite the radio program, though not sure how that works. So I suggest we keep the original quote for now.

Thank you for your concern, it's an important subject. Hendrixski (talk) 01:14, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

Thanks, Jake.

Jake, I've done a lot of thinking related to our discussions this past year. I owe you a tribute. Despite us seemingly being constantly on opposing sides of edits, in multiple articles, I underestimated how much the number of times you have been dead on in presenting your objections has irked me, clouding my better judgment. I have been short sighted, rude, perhaps even somewhat offensive; and for the most part, you have been a model of a Misplaced Pages editor. I have not, and I still stumble. Thank you for teaching me most of what I know about Misplaced Pages, and helping me foster the courage to try to make Misplaced Pages work within its principles. Blackworm (talk) 01:52, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

Well, thank you for such a nice message, Blackworm. I think I'd go crazy if I didn't allow myself to stumble on occasion -- I certainly did so frequently when I was less familiar with Misplaced Pages, and still do on occasion. You and I both jumped in at the deep end of Misplaced Pages, editing very controversial articles, and I think that's very challenging, especially for new editors. It takes time to grasp the principles of Misplaced Pages, and longer to understand that the rules aren't just a nuisance but that they work to ensure a better article than any of our own individual POVs. Such time is something of a luxury while editors are trying to adhere to our standards of behaviour (not always easy in a heated environment) and avoid being blocked. Perhaps we're really asking for super-human editors. Anyway, thanks for your cordial message. Jakew (talk) 14:20, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

Not sure about this edit, Jake. Thoughts?

image caption change seem to cause the reader to beg the question, Jake. "Why does the first penis look so different flaccid than the second?" I happen to not ask that question, since I can reasonably assume the answer. What do you believe it is? Do you believe an uninformed reader might ask themselves that question? Put another way, since Misplaced Pages is written for the educated. Do you believe a significant minority are uninformed about circumcision? I'm not asking you whether a significant minority would not recognize what has caused the difference in appearance, just to be clear. You said in your talk message that this was your preference. Can I suggest, uncircumcised penis and circumcised penis? This language seems to resolve the ambiguity.

My preference, would be penis and circumcised penis. I think of images in an encyclopedia as being like diagrams. You describe the unmodified case that best describes the subject: "penis." Then you specialize; you inject adjectives. Do you oppose the idea that the unmodified case of a subject corresponds closest with its general definition? I respectfully ask you to put your scientific mind to the task. To my knowledge, your letters have been published in scientific peer-reviewed journals. I have no doubt as to your ability.

To respond to your frequently heard pierced ear analogy, if we we talking about pierced ears, do you believe the image of the subject would be described in Misplaced Pages as an ear and later, as, another ear? I don't believe so. Blackworm (talk) 20:27, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

No, I'm not particularly keen on "a penis" and "another penis" (or "an ear" and "another ear"). It was simply an attempt to find a compromise solution when an editor seemed strongly opposed to my own preference, which was "an uncircumcised penis" and "a circumcised penis". I think it is better than "a penis" and "a circumcised penis".

I think that we can safely assume that a certain amount of information will be redundant. For example, the reader can probably figure out that both photos are of penes and not, say, hedgehogs. It is reasonable to state that the photo is of a penis, and it is reasonable to state that the penis in question is uncircumcised.

I'm not convinced by the idea that closeness to the "general definition" should require no adjective, and I'm not really sure that there is a "general definition" when it comes to the penis. If I were asked to describe two penes, I'd probably find myself focusing on the differences. For example, if both were uncircumcised, I might find myself referring to "the relatively hairy one" and "the less hairy one", whether or not one of the two fell within a normal distribution. I'd tend to avoid "the penis" and "the hairy penis" because the former is ambiguous. I might say "the penis" and "the other penis" if was only important to identify that there were two penes, and the differences were unimportant, but I'd personally prefer more clarity. Jakew (talk) 21:24, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

You're comparing an adjective that either is or isn't with one that is generally a matter of degree, or alternately viewed, a judgment call. That's not classification. At least an ear is pierced or unpierced. Would you call a penis unhairy in an encyclopedia?

It may indeed be reasonable to state that the penis is uncircumcised, and I would support that, as I say above. I'm less convinced with a penis and another penis. It seems to read like Misplaced Pages is a picture book instead of an encyclopedia. I believe it is less descriptive, and therefore worse than a penis and a circumcised penis, but I agree with the compromise of describing circumcision status in both images. Blackworm (talk) 22:35, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

I neglected to respond to hedgehogs. How about a human penis/a human uncircumcised penis and a human circumcised penis ? I agree, less ambiguity is much better.

You write: I'm not convinced by the idea that closeness to the "general definition" should require no adjective. Certainly the more general the definition, the fewer adjectives it requires. I don't see the word circumcised in any dictionary entries for penis. You may argue that "uncircumcised" isn't there either, but that's seems to be the point. Blackworm (talk) 22:43, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

I'd agree that a definition doesn't require adjectives. The definition of "penis" includes both "uncircumcised penis" and "circumcised penis". But you can't take a photograph of a definition. A photograph can only be of a specific penis, and that penis will always have its own attributes.

Of course, we don't have to remark upon every attribute, but when we draw attention to one attribute we need to be careful to be consistent. As an example, if we were to describe "a mechanic" and "a female mechanic", this creates the impression that there is something remarkable about the fact that a mechanic is female. We risk reinforcing prejudice and stereotypes.

Now, it may be the case that there is something remarkable about the fact that a mechanic is female. But is it remarkable because of experience within a given society? Is it, though I find the idea unpleasant, that men are genetically predisposed towards mechanical abilities? It probably depends on context - I'm sure that male mechanics are remarkable within the (hypothetical) Organisation of Female Mechanics! It seems to me that it's best to say "a male mechanic" and "a female mechanic" in the captions.

I'm happy with "an uncircumcised penis" and "a circumcised penis", and I'm also happy with "a human uncircumcised penis" and "a human circumcised penis". If you want to change the article to use either, I've no objection. Jakew (talk) 23:41, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

The Military history WikiProject Newsletter — Issue XXII (December 2007)

The Military history WikiProject Newsletter Issue XXII (December 2007)
Project news The Intelligence task force has been created. The contest department has completed its ninth month of competition. The top scorer this month is Blnguyen, with 22 points, followed by Dreamafter, with 8 points, and Redmarkviolinist, with 6 points. Blnguyen also remains the overall leader, with 162 points in total. All project members are encouraged to submit the articles they're working on as entries. Help with converting deprecated infoboxes is needed; any assistance is welcome! {{WPMILHIST}} now supports an explicit tag (class=DAB) for marking disambiguation pages.	Articles of note New featured articles: Battle of Albuera Battle of Dyrrhachium (1081) Battle of the Gebora Constantine II of Scotland Francis Harvey Vasa (ship) Wulfhere of Mercia New A-Class articles: 1962 South Vietnamese Presidential Palace bombing Evacuation of East Prussia
Current proposals and discussions A discussion about minimizing terminological ambiguity has begun.
Awards and honors Blnguyen has been awarded the WikiChevrons with Oak Leaves in recognition of his efforts in improving the quality of articles related to Vietnamese military history, including the creation of numerous A-Class articles. Woodym555 has been awarded the WikiChevrons with Oak Leaves in recognition of his outstanding work on topics related to the Victoria Cross, notably including the creation of featured articles, featured lists, and a featured topic. For their outstanding efforts as part of Tag & Assess 2007, Bedford, TomStar81, and Parsival74 have been awarded the gold, silver, and bronze Wikis, respectively.
Tag & Assess 2007 Tag & Assess 2007 is now officially over, with slightly under 68,000 articles processed. The top twenty scores are as follows: 1. Bedford — 7,600 2. TomStar81 — 5,500 3. Parsival74 — 5,200 4. FayssalF — 3,500 5. Roger Davies — 3,000 6. Ouro — 2600 7. Kateshortforbob — 2250 8. Cromdog — 2,200 9. BrokenSphere — 2000 9. Jacksinterweb — 2,000 9. Maralia — 2,000 12. MBK004 — 1,340 13. JKBrooks85 — 1,250 14. Sniperz11 — 1100 15. Burzmali — 1000 15. Cplakidas — 1000 15. Gimme danger — 1000 15. Raoulduke471000 15. TicketMan — 1000 15. Welsh — 1000 15. Blnguyen — 1000 Although the drive is officially closed, existing participants can continue tagging until January 31 if they wish, with the extra tags counting towards their tally for barnstar purposes. We'd like to see what lessons can be learned from this drive, so we've set up a feedback workshop. Comments and feedback from participants and non-participants alike are very welcome and appreciated.
To stop receiving this newsletter, or to receive it in a different format, please list yourself in the appropriate section here.

Note: This newsletter was automatically delivered. Regards from the automated, Anibot (talk) 23:34, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

Incidentally

I happened to mention one of your diffs at User talk:Phyesalis#An example of prose attribution. --Coppertwig (talk) 03:48, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for letting me know. It's interesting to read analysis of one's edits -- you've obviously given it more thought than I had! Jakew (talk) 18:58, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

WP:Keep It Simple

Hi

Would you be interested in continuing helping to make labels? and in making the alternative labels more known to the community ? Your help was greatly appreciated and helped to advance the project, we miss you at WP:KIS Thanks ℒibrarian2 18:38, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

Sorry I didn't answer before, I have the hands full with an inventory at work :(

Your idea of the userbox for popularizing the labels is just Great! When and if you have the time please go ahead, it can be just what we are needing! On other subjects, I hope all is going good for you . Best regards ℒibrarian2 12:24, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

Invitation

Hello. You may have seen that some Misplaced Pages articles lack sources to given dates, timelines and chronologies.
If you feel that you could like to help in making all articles more reliable and well sourced in this regard, we would like to encourage you to use, as part of your daily editing and when {{fact}} is not enough for requesting clearly and specifically a citation or source for dates, timeline or chronology, the following inline tag:

{{Timefact}} displays for requesting timelines, dates and chronology sources. Click here for more information

At WP Timeline Tracer, we thank you for using these tools and for helping to make Misplaced Pages articles more accurate and reliable.

Daoken 10:26, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

Thank you so much!

Thanks for the barnstar! I really appreciate it.

By the way, I forget if I already mentioned this, but it's because of your influence that I've put a "self-revert" userbox on my userpage. I've also learned from you about the fine points of applying WP:NPOV policy. Cheers! --Coppertwig (talk) 13:34, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

Labels

Hi Jake, sorry but there is something wrong with the label boxes, don't show. If when you have the time you can give a look, that will be great. Thanks ℒibrarian2 20:11, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

My Rfa

Well, not this time anyway it seems...my effort to regain my adminship was unsuccessful, but your support was still very much appreciated. Let me know if there is anything I can do for you. Thank you!--MONGO 06:52, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

The Military history WikiProject Newsletter : Issue XXIII (January 2008)

The January 2008 issue of the Military history WikiProject newsletter has been published. You may read the newsletter, change the format in which future issues will be delivered to you, or unsubscribe from this notification by following the link. Thank you.
This has been an automated delivery by BrownBot (talk) 00:09, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

Wikiproject Universities

• Wikiproject Universities is drafting guidelines for application to worldwide higher education systems, and in my opinion ONLY favors the American collegiate system, making the British Universities system a potential target for deletionists. Your help would be much apreciated. TorstenGuise (talk) 08:41, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

Military history WikiProject coordinator elections

The Military history WikiProject coordinator selection process is starting. We are aiming to elect nine coordinators to serve for the next six months; if you are interested in running, please sign up here by February 14! Kirill 03:20, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

Milhist coordinators election has started

The February 2008 Military history WikiProject coordinator election has begun. We will be selecting nine coordinators to serve for the next six months from a pool of fifteen candidates. Please vote here by February 28. --ROGER DAVIES  23:26, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

Dispute resolution?

Okay good idea. Thanks princess. LPRABCMP (talk) 07:10, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

The Military history WikiProject Newsletter : Issue XXIV (February 2008)

The February 2008 issue of the Military history WikiProject newsletter has been published. You may read the newsletter, change the format in which future issues will be delivered to you, or unsubscribe from this notification by following the link. Thank you.
This has been an automated delivery by BrownBot (talk) 04:44, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

My RfB

I wanted to personally thank you, Jake, for your support in my recent RfB. I am thankful and appreciative that you feel that I am worthy of the trust the community requires of its bureaucrats, and I hope to continue to behave in a way that maintains your trust in me and my actions. I have heard the community's voice that they require more of a presence at RfA's of prospective bureaucrats, and I will do my best over the near future to demonstrate such a presence and allow the community to see my philosophy and practices in action. I hope I can continue to count on your support when I decide to once again undergo an RfB. If you have any suggestions, comments, or constructive criticisms, please let me know via talkpage or e-mail. Thank you again. -- Avi (talk) 17:00, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

Circumcision

I'm wondering if we should include mention of female circumcision in this article - granted there are very different. I know this is all political and you have been in the midst of it a lot longer than I. Mattnad (talk) 22:58, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for the insight into the history here. Also, have you ever read a book by Yosh Taguchi called "Private Parts". He's a well known urologist who comments on Circumcision. See http://www.amazon.com/Private-Parts-Doctors-Guide-Anatomy/dp/0385262000/ref=si3_rdr_bb_product

You can "search inside" on "circumcision". He notes that penile cancer is much lower (to non-existent) among circumcised men. He also comments that most objections to circumcision come from people (like pediatricians and gynecologists) who do not have do address problems related to foreskins. Bruno23 (talk) 17:07, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for letting me know. It looks very interesting. Jakew (talk) 19:33, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

I read quickly through some recent discussion at Talk:Circumcision. I'm not sure if I have time to get involved, but I want to congratulate you, Jakew, for your calm, logical approach – as usual. ☺Coppertwig (talk) 23:12, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

Thanks, Coppertwig. Jakew (talk) 10:35, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

Jakew are you from a organisation such as circlist.org or similar? I ask that honestly because of the many revisions you've made on the male circumcision article. That article is not balanced (yet) and shows clear bias to the brutal and unnecessary practice. At the very least it must be brought to the standard of showing the widely known and highly concerning side effects of the procedure. Unfortunately poor education persists on this issue. Particularly in the US. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.217.42.150 (talk) 12:31, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

I'm afraid that I have little confidence in your ability to assess issues of balance and bias when you describe circumcision as a "brutal and unnecessary practice". This indicates to me that you fail to distinguish between your own feelings about the subject and neutral, objective discussion, and the "bias" you perceive may simply be the fact that the article is more neutral than you would wish it to be.

Additionally, I note that your other edit to this encyclopaedia consists of undoing my earlier revert of a problematic edit. The edit would have been problematic in the text (due to the dubious reliability of the source, as well as questions of appropriate weighting), but as I noted in the edit summary, it actually modified a direct quote attributed to the American Academy of Family Physicians. Thus, as a result of your edit, Misplaced Pages dishonestly misrepresents the words of the AAFP. Since you must have seen the edit summary in order to undo the edit, and you must therefore have been aware that the edit caused the source to be misquoted, it is difficult to see how this edit could have been made in good faith. Jakew (talk) 13:01, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

Jakew you are confusing a neutral point of view with your opinion that there are no effects. Futhermore the US sources are biased because they generate studies to support their unchangeable opinion on the issue. Rather than following the scientific method of drawing conclusions from observations these studies are taylored to give support to their conclusions.

At the time I undid your edit I hadn't noticed that I edited a direct quote. I'll be sure not to do that again. However your undoing removed other information from verifiable sources. Also, I'm unsure about what the in the article signfies. It looks amatuerish.

I can see your mission with this article is keep the numerous negative side effects out of the article for as long as you're able to. I won't speculate on your motives beyond the typical one -- your father had it done to you because it was done to him by his father and so on. I do suggest though that resign from your fight against the rising tide of real facts on the issue. The tide is indeed turning from ignorance to knowledge and within a few generations circumcision may well be non-existence for non-religious reasons. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.217.42.150 (talk) 11:19, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

If you can supply evidence that data in US studies are fabricated, I'll be interested to read it. Please bear in mind, however, that allegations of scientific misconduct are a very serious matter, and require a high standard of supporting evidence.

The ellipsis ("...") in the quote signifies a section of text that has been omitted for reasons of brevity. This is standard practise for quotations in academic works. Jakew (talk) 12:01, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

As I'd rather spend my time doing something else, I'm no more inclined to prove these American studies on circumcision are fabricrated than to prove Japan fabricates studies to support 'whaling for scientific research'. Litigation alone is a significant enough motive for a cover up by American medical bodies on this matter. As I said these facts will come into general knowledge soon enough.

In the meantime, anybody willing to do the briefest of research will find these facts evident. Male circumcision undeniably reduces male penile sensitivity and mechanically speaking an uncircumcised penis undeniably needs more lubrication during penile-vaginal intercourse. The side effects of those two facts are clear.

If you don't mind I would still like to hear why you do no want any content related to the negative side effects of male circumcision included in this article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jookieapc (talk • contribs)

The Military history WikiProject Newsletter : Issue XXV (March 2008)

The March 2008 issue of the Military history WikiProject newsletter has been published. You may read the newsletter, change the format in which future issues will be delivered to you, or unsubscribe from this notification by following the link. Thank you.
This has been an automated delivery by BrownBot (talk) 01:31, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

3rr

I'm at 3 Jake. That's not a violation. We are both geeks. Let's build on our commonality and work together. In your user page you claim you are neutral to circumcision. My very first post I was honest stating my position being against. That doesn't mean I oppose pro viewpoints, on the contrary, I welcome them. If you truly wish to make this article better why not help me balance it out? Garycompugeek (talk) 22:09, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

I missed the first one and was only looking at the reverts in my contribs. I've reverted to your edit. Look, I'm an amiable guy lets work together to balence this out. Garycompugeek (talk) 22:36, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

I think the article is very well balanced already. I guess the problem is that I don't understand (or at least don't agree with your perception of) the problem that you're trying to solve. Jakew (talk) 13:39, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

Fair enough Jake. However its clear from the POV section I'm not alone in my opinion. Am I to assume that you feel adding con sources would tip the article the other way and oppose? Garycompugeek (talk) 15:34, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

Perhaps, perhaps not. It would depend on the proposed edit. I'm sorry if that's unclear, but I don't think there's a simple answer to that question. I don't think it's as simple as counting the number of "pro" and "con" sources; I tend to look at things like quality of (and accurate reflection of) sources, awareness of and appropriate weight given to different viewpoints (in proportion to their prominence), avoidance of original research, and of course wider issues such as the quality of the writing, conciseness, avoidance of redundancy, and awareness of the structure of the encyclopaedia (summary style, etc). I think that an good edit will tend to further those goals, whether or not it increases or decreases the number of "pro" and "con" sources. Jakew (talk) 16:59, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

I agree with you in principal Jake. The problem I see and feel as far as a well balanced article goes is that since 70% of the world is not circumcised and prevailing medical opinion is that necessary or recommeded and the article should reflect that. I don't get that at all when I read the article. I understand everyone may not have this opinion and will use sourced facts to prove the point. On the other hand we can strip out everything and simply state what circumcision is without pros and cons but I am not a deletionist. I think the information is valuable but can easily be tilted in different directions. There are also many myths that we should also debunk in the process futhering the readers knowledge about the subject. Garycompugeek (talk) 17:54, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

Dinh et al.

Unfortunately, I only have HTML access to the article. The quoted text (in the citation) is literally the only sentence that addresses the issue in the entire article. The finding is not mentioned in the abstract or the discussion. Thanks, AlphaEta 15:29, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

You are correct. The quoted text does not include the actual data (Table 1 in the article). The sample size for all men in the survey was 4176. The sample size for circumcised men was 2955. The sample size for uncircumcised men was 1155. For the percentage of each group with genital warts, 4.5% (95% CI, 3.6%–5.6%) versus 2.4% (95% CI, 1.5%–4.0%), respectively, P, calculated using Wald chi-square test to compare categories, was less than or equal to 0.05 in each case. Thanks, AlphaEta 16:17, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

prevalence discussion

Hi Jake. I've added some words to your draft on my talk page. Am still on a steep learning curve about how Misplaced Pages works and am finding this a rather fascinating exercise. Cheers, John

Johncoz (talk) 23:41, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

I've amended the text and added it to the noticeboard. Sleep well :-) Johncoz (talk) 00:39, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

The Military history WikiProject Newsletter : Issue XXVI (April 2008)

The April 2008 issue of the Military history WikiProject newsletter has been published. You may read the newsletter, change the format in which future issues will be delivered to you, or unsubscribe from this notification by following the link. Thank you.
This has been an automated delivery by BrownBot (talk) 01:08, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

Rfb participation thanks

Hello, Jake.

I wanted to personally thank you for taking part in the project-wide discussions regarding my candidacy for bureaucratship. After bureaucratic discussion, the bureaucrats decided that there was sufficient significant and varied opposition to my candidacy, and thus no consensus to promote. Although personally disappointed, I both understand and respect their decision, especially in light of historical conservatism the project has had when selecting its bureaucrats. If you have any further suggestions or comments as to how you think I could help the project, please let me know. Once again, thank you for your support. -- Avi (talk) 18:07, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

My RfA

Hi Jakew; I wanted to say thank you for supporting my request for adminship, which passed with 100 supports, 0 opposes and 1 neutral. I wanted to get round everybody individually, even though it's considered by some to be spam (which... I suppose it is! but anyway. :)). It means a lot to me that the community has placed its trust in my ability to use the extra buttons, and I only hope I can live up to its expectations. If you need anything, or notice something that bothers you, don't hesitate to let me know. Thanks again, PeterSymonds | talk 22:43, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

I had a long think about edit summaries and decided that I was wrong. I now limit them to typos and basic corrections. I never used them when I first started here, then used them for pretty much everything, and then still used them too much even after that! Thanks for pointing this out to me. Best, PeterSymonds | talk 22:43, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

Primal therapy and reliable sources

Hello Jakew. I saw the message you posted to my talk page, and I'd like to respond to the points you made.

Suppose that we include Donald Knuth's opinion in an article about algorithmic analysis, quoting The Art of Computer Programming. Perfectly valid, I'm sure you'll agree. Now suppose, for the sake of argument, that Knuth is an editor on WP (for all I know, he may be), and that he edits that article. Does this mean that it's no longer valid to include this quotation, for the sole reason that he also edits WP's page? That doesn't make much sense to me: the article shouldn't suffer just because of who edits it.

I'm concerned that the editor is using[REDACTED] as a platform for advocacy. The editor wishes to convince people of his opinion that primal therapy is very bad. To that end, the editor has gone to tremendous lengths, including issuing advertisements soliciting negative opinions about it, inserting links to his unfavorable opinions into amazon book reviews of every book Janov has ever written, inserting messages into discussion groups of his opinions, and so on (I discovered those things during a google search). The editor's insertion of his own views into the encyclopedia article is clearly part of a larger pattern of advocacy, which constitutes POV-pushing and which may violate WP:SOAP.

You provided an analogy of Donald Knuth, but Knuth is not analagous here. If Knuth added quotations of himself to a page, his motive would not be to gain a wider circulation for his ideas. Knuth knows that his ideas are already widespread. Knuth would only quote himself because he knows that his opinions have influenced the field and are therefore relevant to the article.

In this case, however, the situation is just the opposite from Knuth. The editor knows that his opinions are not widespread, and that by adding them to the encyclopedia he is gaining a considerably wider circulation for them. Thus, the insertion of his quotations by himself represents POV-pushing.

When determining whether it represents POV-pushing to insert quotations of oneself into wikipedia, I think a reasonable criterion would be: whether or not a neutral, non-interested editor might have added the same quotations anyway. If so (as in the case of Knuth) then it doesn't represent POV-pushing, because the person inserting quotations of himself is acting like any other editor, and therefore his identity is irrelevant. If, however, the editor in question knows that his views would not normally be found in an encyclopedia, then he is not acting like any other editor would. He is acting as an advocate, and is trying to spread his views by copying them directly into the encyclopedia, which is a violation of WP:SOAP.

Anyway, all of this is not really my main point. My main point is that the quotation in dispute clearly violates[REDACTED] policies regarding reliable sources. The quotation is taken from a self-published website, and the[REDACTED] policy on reliable sources is quite explicit in forbidding self-published material.

Not only does the quotation violate wikipedia's standards for sources, it also violates more general standards for sources. The quotation is taken from a self-published website which is anonymous and which makes contentious allegations against 3rd parties. It's hard to see how a self-published website filled with anonymous accusations could be classified as a scholarly source.

One more thing. The opinion expressed in the quotation is not supported by the literature. There is no experimental evidence which shows that primal therapy is less effective than placebo. In fact, there is little experimental evidence one way or the other. Thus, the quotation is not derived from the evidence; instead, it represents the personal "judgment" (his wording) of the[REDACTED] editor. But the[REDACTED] article is not the place for someone to express his personal judgment.

Thanks for your attention on this matter, and sorry for the overlong response. Twerges (talk) 03:50, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

Jakew, be sure to actually read the debunkingprimaltherapy.com website before agreeing with twereges. there is some verifying information on there, and some converging evidence from other sources. I was there at the primal center in the 1990s and I assure you that it is a destructive psychotherapy cult. Aussiewikilady (talk) 06:12, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

Please understand that I am not saying that this website is erroneous, only that it does not conform to Misplaced Pages's definition of a reliable source. I'm afraid that I don't know enough about primal therapy to form an opinion about it; however when browsing through the peer-reviewed literature I found a rather interesting abstract from a paper published in Zeitschrift für Psychosomatische Medizin und Psychoanalyse: "The authors examined the available literature and then came to the conclusion that primal therapy is not a valid therapeutic technique. Most psychotherapists in the Federal Republic of Germany do not utilize so-called primal therapeutic processes, perceiving it as based on questionable theoretical premises and dangerous in practice."

When reading the "criticism" section of the article, my impression as a reader is that this is an attempt to give an exhaustive list of every critical comment in existence, regardless of the nature of the criticism or the reliability of the source. There are many reliable sources in there, such as Bornstein and Cordon, but they get lost in the noise of podcasts and random websites. The result is less persuasive, I think, than it would be if it were more selective, more descriptive, and better organised. Jakew (talk) 09:01, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

Here's another interesting one. This is particularly interesting, since it is not just the opinion of the author, but of a random sample of 300 professionals: "A random sample of 300 psychologists listed in the National Register of Health Service Providers in Psychology were surveyed about the soundness of forms of mental health treatment and use of these treatments in practice. Approaches most in question as to soundness were primal therapy" Jakew (talk) 11:42, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

Twerges, I agree that this material doesn't meet WP:RS and WP:V, but what I'm trying to say (perhaps poorly) is that I think these are the important issues. In my view, it's best to keep concerns about behavioural issues separate from those about content issues. Mixing them up makes it harder to solve either (and probably won't help to calm hostile feelings either). Jakew (talk) 11:24, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

I agree. These are definitely important issues. I should have separated my claims more carefully. I suppose I sort of threw all my claims together, and claimed them all at once: "the editor has posted unverifiable information from a self-published website of his own opinions...". But there are 3 separate issues here: WP:RS, WP:V, and WP:SOAP. The claim of WP:RS is serious by itself and should be treated separately.Twerges (talk) 05:15, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

Jakew, after I added my notice to the reliable sources noticeboard, it appears that 2 independent editors responded with discussion there, and 2 more responded with discussion on the article talk. I should say that I was delighted with the calm rationality of all of them. It was a welcome relief from the vehement disagreement which often occurs there.

It appears that all 4 independent editors have agreed that the quotation violates WP:RS. Should I go ahead and remove the quotation? Thanks for your time and attention on this matter.Twerges (talk) 07:01, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

Please review Oscar Dahlene

You made an entry at Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Oscar Dahlene, and since that time the article in question has been improved to include significant facts. I ask you to review the page and determine if your have anything to add, remove, or modify.--Paul McDonald (talk) 13:22, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

WT:FICT

I like your comments, and reminds me just how true this is in relation to non-linear plots such as Pulp Fiction (film), which I would guess has been written and rewritten dozens of times.--Gavin Collins (talk) 15:39, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

The Military history WikiProject Newsletter : Issue XXVII (May 2008)

The May 2008 issue of the Military history WikiProject newsletter has been published. You may read the newsletter, change the format in which future issues will be delivered to you, or unsubscribe from this notification by following the link. Thank you.
This has been an automated delivery by BrownBot (talk) 00:56, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

Edit War

Jake you are alone in your opinion. Perhaps you should gain WP:consensus before reverting. You are a very intelligent young man but play dumb when things don't match you POV. You must learn to compromise with other editors. As far as being uncivil, that's simply not true. We may disagree but I have never been mean to you. You must admit you do act like the gatekeeper of this article. Maybe you should take a step back and let others contribute or not... either way I implore you to remember we all have opinions and must work together. Garycompugeek (talk) 23:01, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

I'll reply at your talk page, since this appears to be in response to the message I left there. Jakew (talk) 23:07, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

I appreciate the thoughtful response. It is easy to get worked up about things you believe in. I apologize if I came off as a jerk. Garycompugeek (talk) 02:05, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

Please gain consensus before removing protest image from Circumcision

Jake you are exhibiting most of the signs of WP:OWNERSHIP and must learn to work with other editors. It is OK to disagree with other editors. You must still abide by current consensus regardless of your position. Please gain consensus on Talk:Circumcision before removing circumcision protest image. Your actions could be construed as WP:Censorship and continuation on this course WP:VANDALISM. Garycompugeek (talk) 15:43, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

Replying at your talk. Jakew (talk) 18:30, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

Thank you for your cool headed (as always) response. I understand your close to the article. I consider you something of an expert on the matter. Your POV flavors your contributions as it does for everyone. Sometimes I think we communicate better on these side conversations. Kinda like drawing someone over to a nice quite corner to talk. While I may have thrown a bit of the book at you (maybe I've learned from you?) I stand by what I said above and your actions could be construed to violate the above policies. Personally I do not feel you are trying to maliciously damage the encyclopedia but are instead fighting for your viewpoint. I respect that. I really think you should step back and show you can compromise.

Pictures do not have to be neutral and are excellent tools to illustrate. I would not object to pro circumcision pictures being added to the article. Garycompugeek (talk) 20:00, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

Happy Independence Day!

As you are a nice Wikipedian, I just wanted to wish you a happy Independence Day! And if you are not an American, then have a happy day and a wonderful weekend anyway!  :) Your friend and colleague, --Happy Independence Day! Le Grand Roi des Citrouilles 00:31, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

The Military history WikiProject Newsletter : Issue XXVIII (June 2008)

The June 2008 issue of the Military history WikiProject newsletter has been published. You may read the newsletter, change the format in which future issues will be delivered to you, or unsubscribe from this notification by following the link. Thank you.
This has been an automated delivery by BrownBot (talk) 19:03, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

Civility barnstar

		Civility Award
		I award you this Civility barnstar, for always remaining civil in the face of incessant and entirely unwarranted incivility. Jayjg 06:12, 8 July 2008 (UTC)

Editor's Barnstar

		The Editor's Barnstar
		I award you this Editor's barnstar for insisting on the highest quality sourcing and most neutral presentation of material for all articles. Jayjg 06:15, 8 July 2008 (UTC)

The Quill Barnstar

		The Quill Barnstar
		For demonstrating, with boundless patience and logic, that the pen is mightier than the sword; for basing arguments firmly on policies and reliable sources while consistently upholding Misplaced Pages's neutral-point-of-view policy; and for some of the Wikipedianliest comments I've ever seen in policy talk page discussions, I, Coppertwig, hereby award thee, Jakew, this well-earned barnstar. ☺ 01:51, 9 July 2008 (UTC)

The Anti-Flame Barnstar

		The Anti-Flame Barnstar
		By staying cool, calm and collected – and courteous – no matter how frumious or flainstering the situation, thou hast earned this Anti-Flame Barnstar, which I, Coppertwig hereby bestow upon thee. ☺ 01:51, 9 July 2008 (UTC)

The Working Man's Barnstar

		The Working Man's Barnstar
		For working tirelessly and endlessly on the more laborious or repetitive of Misplaced Pages tasks. Blackworm (talk) 04:12, 9 July 2008 (UTC)

The Guidance Barnstar

		The Guidance Barnstar
		For helping others locate valuable resources, information, or assistance. Blackworm (talk) 04:12, 9 July 2008 (UTC)

The Real Life Barnstar

		The Real Life Barnstar
		For making contributions both online and offline, by organizing wiki-related real-life events. Blackworm (talk) 04:12, 9 July 2008 (UTC)

http://en.wikipedia.org/Template:The_Real_Life_Barnstar