Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 09:38, 15 July 2008

Chechens is currently protected from editing. To request a change to it, add {{edit protected}} to this page, followed by a description of your request.

Russia Unassessed

This article is within the scope of WikiProject Russia, a WikiProject dedicated to coverage of Russia on Misplaced Pages. To participate: Feel free to edit the article attached to this page, join up at the project page, or contribute to the project discussion.RussiaWikipedia:WikiProject RussiaTemplate:WikiProject RussiaRussia ??? This article has not yet received a rating on Misplaced Pages's content assessment scale. ??? This article has not yet received a rating on the project's importance scale.

Famous Chechens

File:Famchechensrev002.jpg

For the benefit of people who do not know much about the Chechen people, please could someone produce a caption saying who these five famous Chechens are.--Toddy1 06:39, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

I don't really know about Chechens either, but I had the same question. Based on a comment from an anonymous user on this page, I've been able to deduce:

(Left to right) Imam Shamil, Dzhokhar Dudayev, Akhmed Zakayev, Dadan Idrisov (as pointed out by bigaufe), Makka Sagaipova

–Andyluciano 19:32, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

bigaufe says:how can i add picture?

Create an image file in an image editor and use the "upload file" link on the left.

PS: You can sign comments by typing ~~~~.

–Andyluciano 14:47, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

The first right is some pop singer (not really famous). The picture would be better, yes. --Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog (talk) 11:26, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

Dadan Idrisov doesn't seem to be very famous I only found 1 (!) google hit describing him... Ramzan Kadyrov would be a better choice, remember those pictures are to identify people, it's not a populairity contest. Dadan Idrisov might be a great pianter but I mean 1 google hit... Mariah-Yulia (talk) 21:57, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

can we remove imam shamil because he was not chechen it would be nice to put ramzan or ahmat kadyrov and replace imam shamil —Preceding unsigned comment added by Bigaufe (talk • contribs) 14:28, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

jewish roots?

I was going across a forum that claimed chechens are of jewish/herbrew ancestry. How true is this? I also find it interesting that the article only covers a recent period of their history —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.98.240.251 (talk) 01:58, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

The Khazarians (precursor to todays "white jews" or Ashkenazim Jews) come from the Caucasus region that includes Chechnya. This is probably why. --John Cho (talk) 14:23, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

I don't find any mention of Chechens residing in Israel who are descendants of settlers from the North Caucasian region in the 18th and 19th centuries when it was a historic Ottoman province of Palestine. Indeed you find many Chechens living in Jordan, Syria and a scattering in Iran, Iraq, Egypt and Turkey, and about the 20,000 said to live in Saudi Arabia is questionable. + 71.102.53.48 (talk) 10:21, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

Find a source and fix it (I also heard of Iraq - an interview with an Iraqi general who was from a Chechen descent). Edit: fixed. --Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog (talk) 10:13, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

imam shamil is not chechen he is avar! —Preceding unsigned comment added by Bigaufe (talk • contribs) 10:31, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

The Khazars were different people, from what I read the Chechens actually fought against them. Captain, whose that general? - PietervHuis (talk) 15:54, 11 July 2008 (UTC)

Needs an article on the Chechen culture

Like tradition and art. --Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog (talk) 10:11, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

en masse deletions

Can Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog and his aid User:Folantin explain why you removed my sourced additions. Point by point. --Kuban Cossack 10:16, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

Well, how about when you finally added sources for your material, you made statements that completely contradict the references you gave, e.g. the citation you gave from the Alexandr Uralov site for Chechen pro-German activity "this intensified as the Germans approached the Caucasus. In some areas up to 80% of the populations backed the insurgency". Can't find any mention of the 80% figure there. Maybe you'll have more luck More importantly, the same page is resolute that the Chechens didn't collaborate with the Germans and this was simply a pretext by Stalin to deport them en masse. Однако официальный мотив уничтожения этого народа - коллаборация с немцами - рассчитан на невежество советского народа и на неосведомленность Запада. Несколько забегая вперед, отметим следующие два решающих факта: 1) во время второй мировой войны ни разу не было ноги немецкого солдата на территории Чечено-Ингушской республики, если не считать кратковременного занятия пограничного местечка Малгобек, населенного русскими; 2) присоединяться к немецким формированиям чеченцы и ингуши и физически не могли, так как в Чечено-Ингушетии не было обязательной мобилизации за все время существования Чечено-Ингушетии, а частичная мобилизация во время советско-финской войны была отменена уже во время начала немецко-советской войны с освобождением от службы в Красной Армии всех чеченцев и ингушей (приказ по Главному командованию Красной Армии от февраля 1942 года мотивировал это освобождение тем, что чеченцы и ингуши по религиозным убеждениям отказываются есть свинину). This completely rejects the idea that the Chechen people collaborated with the Germans, citing "two decisive facts": "1) During the Second World War, German soldiers did not once set foot in the territory of the Chechen-Ingush Republic, unless you count the short-lived occupation of Malgobek, inhabited by Russians; (2) it was physically impossible for Chechens and Ingush to link up with German formations...". --Folantin (talk) 15:08, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

First of all I am happy we are finally discussing invididual problems rather than en masse reversions, I have problem raising issues and corrections based on them, that's kind of the poin of wikipedia, so hello, nice to meet you.

Why don't you read about the 1940-1944 insurgency in Chechnya, even about its leader, there is no denying that this occured, and that this was a pretext. That is exactly what is cited in the deporation order signed not by Stalin but by Beria. At least that defeats the original POV text that the Chechens were deported because someone did not like them... --Kuban Cossack 15:15, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

How about you explain your misuse of sources as requested? --Folantin (talk) 15:44, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

Well why did you revert everything else, instead of re-writing the erroneous sections? --Kuban Cossack 15:49, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

Because I don't trust you or the reliability of the material you've added and because I'm not going to waste my valuable time cleaning up your mess. --Folantin (talk) 15:53, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

Well may point you in the direction of WP:IDONTLIKEIT and also WP:FAITH, I should also tell you that you have made three reverts already so watch out for the consequences of making the fourth one. However here is the source that I've should have used instead of the one one I gave . --Kuban Cossack 15:56, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

Oh really? Quite apart from the question of the reliability of the source, I still don't see any mention of "80%" there. --Folantin (talk) 16:10, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

So correct that part, after all you are interested in the article to be full and detailed and correct? Are you not? --Kuban Cossack 16:17, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

Even though you might not trust me its worth recognising that your critique will be constructive in the sense that dubious passages can be elaborated on, researched and corrected/re-written. For that I thank you. --Kuban Cossack 16:18, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

Joanna Nichols

This source here is nothing but a one-sided propaganda bullshit (it openly states so in the lead) that is also 13 years out of date. It forgets to mention for example that the Terek Cossacks first settled the area on the request of the Kabardin people after the fall of the Astrakhan Khanate in 1554. The Kabardins themselves were resisting the Nogay Horde and the Crimean Khanate, and the Chechens were hiding in the mountains because for the fear that the Nogays inflicted on them and their frequent raids. The Cossacks however living between them were used to common retaliation. Also Russian governments: czars, Soviets etc. I should remind Nichols that Stalin was not Russian, and that the Soviet Union was founded by a union of RSFSR (headed by Trotsky and Lenin, also not exactly Russian) USSR, BSSR and ZSFSR. The Chechens supported the Red Army and Bolsheviks against the Terek Cossacks, and the whole Sunzha-Terek messopotamia was ethnically cleansed of Russians by the combined actions of Chechens and Bolsheviks. Then you removed my information on why they actually got deported the sourced and veriafiable passages about the 1940-1944 insurgency in Chechnya. Also the extesive friction wrt Grozny Oblast and how during the later Soviet times, unlike Nichols is trying to state, ChIASSR was ruled completely by Chechens and Ingush, and the once Russian majority was pushed out until in early 1990s 250 thousand of them were forced out of Chechnya. --Kuban Cossack 10:33, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

History of Chechnya this way. --Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog (talk) 11:19, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

That article is balanced, and written from numerous sources, this is written from one non-neutral source by a person who herself admits she is not an expert in the field. That is amateurish. --Kuban Cossack 12:03, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

BAM! Huge clocks of text about history of Chechnya ("see also") and the other sub-issues that ALREADY HAVE THEIR OWN ARTICLES. Come on. I'm not even reading it. How about if I go to Russians (SEE THIS ARTICLE OKAY) and copy-past stuff from history of Russia? --Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog (talk) 16:28, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

Also, "Contributions to humanity" section in the Russians article made me facepalm. I tried Germans, I tried Poles, I tried Han Chinese, none of these have any "Contributions to humanity". --Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog (talk) 16:34, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

this is just the usual round of antiquity frenzy we typically get at "2nd world" ethnic group articles. Egyptians. Armenians. Indians. So now it's the Chechens' turn. This shouldn't even raise any eyebrows. It's always the exact same coat-racking on prehistory and archaeological continuity. We point to the relevant content guidelines and reduce the prehistory-cruft to a brief summary within WP:DUE. Standard procedure would be that we next get an insanely detailed Category:Origin hypotheses of ethnic groups article dedicated to the Chechens. They have a lot of catching-up to do if they want to compete with Afrocentrists or the Balkans :op dab (𒁳) 10:11, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

Article by Dr. Joanna Nichols is a good academic source. Claiming her publication to be a "a one-sided propaganda bullshit" is an example of extreme bias. One who has such bias should not edit this article.Biophys (talk) 03:51, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

Biophys use some common sense, how could there be national repressions in a republic where the concerned nationality was the titular nation? I mean Chechens were a majority in the republic, they held all the administration locations. This contradicts the bare fact of numerous Chechen elite existing. --Kuban Cossack 09:10, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

You said: "whole Sunzha-Terek messopotamia was ethnically cleansed of Russians by the combined actions of Chechens and Bolsheviks". That is bad distortion of history. It is true that Cossacks as a social group (but not as an ethnic group!) was cleansed by the Bolsheviks (yes, one can call this "genocide"), but Chechens have very little to do with it. You could blame as well Chinese and Latvians who joined the Bolshevics during the Russian Civil War (some Russian nationalists actually do). The problem was communist ideology, not ethnicity. As about the long-term animosity between Cossacks and Chechens, well, that was a result of Tsarist policies and Caucasian war. That was not racism or anything like that form any side.Biophys (talk) 19:46, 11 July 2008 (UTC)

Dood

You removed my corrections as of the real numbers and the improved gallery (all of which was never even contested by anyone) and more for "a stable version before edit wars".

what --Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog (talk) 19:32, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

Also, fore real: History of Chechnya this way. this for everyone. this article IS NOT EVEN ABOUT THIS AT ALL. Now restore the article to my lat version, whichg is like this version just corrected (there are no 40,000 Chechens in Syria and so on) and improved (better pictures, more inter links). it's here --Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog (talk) 19:36, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

Edit request denied

The version you referred to was disputed: it was changed just 7 minutes later by another user. Only non-controversial edits will be allowed in this article, and a consensus is needed before anything big happens. Please be civil - shouting will achieve nothing. Papa November (talk) 20:31, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

Hello? This "contested stuff" is in your "stable version" too. Get real. --Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog (talk) 13:53, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

I think you are an another mod who has no idea what is going on at all. I suggest you take a closer look on your "stable version" and my improved one (the same thing, just better photos I worked on quite a bit, the real AND sourced figures on the population, more internal links, more categories and such IMPROVEMENTS NOT CHANGES - what do you think is "controversial edit" here?), then talk. --Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog (talk) 13:58, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

"Stable version":

The Vainakh tribes, the ancestors of the Chechens and Ingush, lived in the mountains of the region since the prehistory (there is archeological evidence of historical continuity dating back since 10,000 B.C.). In the 16th century, they began settling in the lowlands and the Islamization of the Chechen people began under the influence of bordering nationalities.

"Unstable version":

The Vainakh tribes, the ancestors of the Chechens and Ingush, lived in the highlands of the region since the prehistory (there is archeological evidence of historical continuity dating back since 10,000 B.C.). In the 16th century, they began settling in the lowlands and the Islamization of the Chechen people began under the influence of bordering nationalities.

Where's your "controversial" difference?

As I said, try to act like a mod, not like a mindless bot. --Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog (talk) 14:01, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

My corrections + reworked gallery no one has ever even challenged: http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Chechen_people&diff=223595742&oldid=223502459 And now fix what you have broken. Not to mention the stable version is full of incorrect information like tens of thousands in the Arab countries (someone added zeroes to these numbers and also added Saudi Arabia while leaving aside Egypt and Iraq for some reason). --Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog (talk) 14:10, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

• I would suggest esiting the Temporal page for now Alex Bakharev (talk) 14:13, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

Nah, this is after KK (who has his agenda, but I don't even care for this, read on) added his history of Chechnya stuff. This shouldn't be here at all - the three small paragraphs (before contact - conquest - deportation and return) are perfectly fine. Not to mention this is even badly written and chaotic, complete with uneven layout of the text itself - but take this back to its article and work on this there. --Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog (talk) 14:21, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

Edit request partly accepted

Once again, please stop shouting, and please don't insult me when I'm going out of my way to clean up the mess here. I personally have no objection to your preferred version of the page, but someone else edited it almost immediately after you did. Why should I preferentially choose your version over the one that came seven minutes later? The safest thing to do is to go back to the last stable version before all this nonsense started, and work in non-controversial or consensus based changes. As you said, some of the edits you made are clearly non-controversial, and I will happily put them in if you start working cooperatively. Here are some things that could be considered controversial about your version, compared with the stable version.

• Soviet deportation -> Stalinist deportation
• ...as the result of the Chechen Wars since 1994. -> ...as the result of the Chechen Wars, especially after 2002.
• ...were prime targets of the Russian conquest efforts... -> ...were some of the most bitter resitants of the Russian Empire's conquest efforts...
• ...two next bloody wars... -> ...two next devastating wars...
• You also expanded the gallery. Generally galleries are not used on Misplaced Pages, and are more suited to Wikimedia Commons. See WP:NOTREPOSITORY for details.

Papa November (talk) 15:22, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

I fixed gallery (and was satisfied from its neutrality and fair representation). You left the complete bullshit of article ("estimated" 20,000 Chechens in Saudi Arabia etc.), because I guess the invented crap like this (which was already pointed by someone here on talk page, I checked and fixed this) is better than my cited figures (I caouldn't only find about Azerbaijan, but one article said there were 6,000 in Baku so I guessed it's plausible). You also still think such obvious stuff like the category "ethnic groups in Syria" is controversial for some reason so I'm not talking with you anymore, I guess I'll just come back when you go away. So bye. --Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog (talk) 16:19, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

Oh, maybe one thing. "as the result of the Chechen Wars, especially after 2002" - maybe you read the article before starting saying crap about controversy. What controversy? These refugees started flooding Europe after late 2002, this is fact not "controversy". There are tens of thousans of them now, there were just few thousand tops before. "bloody" not controversial but "devastating" suddenly now? How would you call this (or this or this or this)? Something wrong with "Stalinist" now? Who ordered this, Father Frost? What the hell is your problem? Do you even know ANYTHING about any of this --Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog (talk) 16:39, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

"Why should I preferentially choose your version over the one that came seven minutes later?" BECAUSE MY VERSION IS LIKE "STABLE VERSION", JUST IMPROVED, WHILE THE OTHER GUY JUST CAME AND KICKED OUT THE STUFF ABOUT CHECHENS BEING THERE SINCE THE DAWN OF TIME, BECAUSE HE DIDN'T BELIEVE THIS FOR SOME REASON? No, i don't even know why I'm writing still. I'll come back after you go away. OK, let's see your move now. --Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog (talk) 16:48, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

You need to calm down. I am not making personal judgements about the content here, I am merely acting as a mediator, so please stop being so aggressive towards me. Once again, I will explain the process to you. If you would like to make an edit to the article, please make a polite request, using the {{editprotected}} tag, explaining exactly what changes you would like to be made, and an administrator (not necessarily me) will decide whether or not to make the edit. Just shouting about my previous decisions does not constitute such a request and it will achieve nothing. Papa November (talk) 17:09, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

I have restored your edits to the infobox, which were not disputed. This could have happened much sooner if you had politely made a specific, polite request instead of such a long-winded aggressive rant. Papa November (talk) 17:15, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

Page protection

I have protected this page to stop the current edit war, as nothing constructive is being achieved here. Please see WP:PROTECT for details of the page protection policy. If you would like to edit the page, please use the {{editprotected}} tag, and discuss your proposed changes here. If the consensus agrees with you, an administrator will update the article. I've set the protection to automatically lift tomorrow, but if the edit warring starts again, I'll protect it for longer. I know this is restrictive, but today's unrestricted editing was a disaster. Papa November (talk) 20:31, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

Temporary page

I have copied the latest version of the page to Chechen people/Temp please continue editing there. Then some consensus will re reached we can merge the histories. Please avoid the revert war - it is absolutely stupid on a temp page anyway. Alex Bakharev (talk) 11:27, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

I have moved the temporary page to /Temp, as the main namespace doesn't support subpages properly. Papa November (talk) 11:32, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

Move gallery to Commons

{{editprotected}} Please add the {{cleanup-gallery}} maintenance tag to the gallery section. Misplaced Pages is not an image repository, and this gallery would be better placed on Commons. Thanks Papa November (talk) 12:17, 8 July 2008 (UTC)

 Done Thanks, PeterSymonds (talk) 13:12, 8 July 2008 (UTC)

Infobox

I propose we do some corrections to that:

• remove Imam Shamil he was an Avar not a Chechen.
• replace Dudayev with better version.
• remove Zakayev, not notable enough IMO
• add Pyotr Zakharov-Chechenets, a good 19th century artist
• add Tapa Tchermoeff, former Russian officer, and then political leader after revolution
• replace image of Makka Sagaipova (that version was a fair use)
• add Akhmad Kadyrov modern day politician
• add Milana Terloeva.
• keep Dadan Idrisov, (though someone make a stub of him)

That works out to seven, one more for a 4 x 2 grid, any suggestions? Someone who is not a politician (we already have two) I wanted to add some sportsman or the like either past or present. --Kuban Cossack 12:37, 8 July 2008 (UTC)

Here we go Kunta-haji, a good example of a pre-Russian times famous Chechen. --Kuban Cossack 12:40, 8 July 2008 (UTC)

The proposal to include image of Akhmad Kadyrov is terrible. Would you also suggest to include image of Adolf Hitler in article German people? Would you suggest to include image of Rasputin in article Russian people? But I have a different suggestion. All users who declare themselves "Russian" (like Kuban Cossack or me) or "Chechen" should excuse themselves from editing this article and only use this talk page for comments. That would resolve all problems once and for all.Biophys (talk) 15:10, 8 July 2008 (UTC)

The proposal to include image of Dzovkhar Dudayev is equally terrible considering what suffering he beset on his people and the Russians living in Chechnya? Yet why do you agree to include him and not include Akhmad Kadyrov, who I agree was not better, but at least after he was gone there began a true reconstruction and rebuilding of Chechnya.

Also Biophys if you apply the logic of witholding edting articles to which one might hold sympathies, then that means you endorse us to delete all of your WP:SYN and WP:POINT conspiracy theory essays such as Putin's phone call and Internet brigades. Anyhow nobody WP:OWNs articles on[REDACTED] and likewise nobody is barred from editing articles on[REDACTED] that kind of defeats the principle of it being a 💕.--Kuban Cossack 16:07, 8 July 2008 (UTC)

New famous collage

File:Famchechensrev003.jpg

If you have any comments to make go for it otherwise I will ask the admin to change the infobox. --Kuban Cossack 07:58, 9 July 2008 (UTC)

Remove Dzhokhar Dudayev, this is not the place to put a disgraced rebel leader who was responsible for thousands of deaths and ethnic cleansing.--Miyokan (talk) 10:00, 9 July 2008 (UTC)

And replace with who, or how about remove both Dudayev and Kadyrov, leave the collage free from politicians?--Kuban Cossack 10:56, 9 July 2008 (UTC)

i think this version is much better then previous and it is better to put kadyrov then zakayev —Preceding unsigned comment added by Bigaufe (talk • contribs) 16:56, 9 July 2008 (UTC)

A couple of points:

• Firstly, the collage is a derivative work, so its description page must show that all the original images are free to be used in such a way. There are some non-free images used here, so the collage is unfortunately a copyright violation in its current form.
• An alternative is to use a template, such as {{Russians mosaic}} which is used in the Russians infobox. This would save a lot of hassle with creating new collage images each time, as pictures can just be swapped in and out as needed. It will also allow you to work on the infobox while the rest of the page remains protected.

Papa November (talk) 11:54, 9 July 2008 (UTC)

I have created a draft template at: {{Chechen people mosaic}} Papa November (talk) 12:25, 9 July 2008 (UTC)

Free from politicians is a good idea. Then there will be six images left - three in the top row and three in the bottom.--Miyokan (talk) 14:20, 9 July 2008 (UTC)

I'd leave only the 2 presidents, the painter and the cleric of this. "Free from politician" is a bad idea, because they are famous (worl-famous even) and the rest are not. Just don't put Ramzan here, there are enough of pictures of Ramzan everywhere in Chechnya (I know it's the same with Akhmad, but at least he's deceased). And this girl is NOT famous. I don't know her. --Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog (talk) 22:14, 9 July 2008 (UTC)

Or just get rid of this, there is the gallery. I worked for and I think achived the fair and even representaion of everything possible in this gallery, which previously was war and separatism-concentrated (now are fighters and civilians, separatists and defectors, men and women and children, presidents and warlords and refugees, some XIXth century figures, and an artist, a cleric, a criminal, and a journalist too). It's even nice-looking in my opinion. --Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog (talk) 22:23, 9 July 2008 (UTC)

Btw, Tapa Tchermoeff sound like a French spelling - should be Tapa Tchermoyev or Tchermoev (or Tsche- or Cha- or whatever, I didn't look for this). --Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog (talk) 22:27, 9 July 2008 (UTC)

This gallery looks like a good compromise to me. It also can be extended if needed.Biophys (talk) 22:45, 9 July 2008 (UTC)

A quick note here, that Tapa guy wasn't the leader of the mountaneous republic but a prime minister or something. Some family member uploaded his picture it seems. The real leader was a Kabardin I think. Heres more Anyway I congratulate on the effort of trying a new collage. I agree on most points (except miyokan who came here to pov push). Let's not get too hasty though. Captain Obvious (I love that name), those galleries seem to be de-recommended by[REDACTED] policies. It's best to insert them in sections of this page, after it's done with expansion because it can be much bigger. - PietervHuis (talk) 00:27, 10 July 2008 (UTC) PS. Kadyrov wasn't really important enough to fit I think. He was only president (on paper) for a short while. The cult having been build around him only happened later after he was assassinated. Imam Shamil indeed doesn't fit in. Whose the first guy in your collage Kuban? - PietervHuis (talk) 00:40, 10 July 2008 (UTC)

I agree with you Pieter that having the gallery is bad, all ethnic groups have collages! Second the first guy if you read his article is only notable pre-Russian Chechen I can think of, and remember a collage has to include those of all breadths. As for Dudayev, remember there was a cult after that bastard's death, the capital of Chechnya was renamed in his -honour, so both Kadyrov and Dudayev are as bad as each other, yet both like it or not, are significant to Chechen history in the post Soviet period. So either we include them both, or we throw both out. I am happy with either. As for the non-notable girl (or a woman) I would gladly replace her with a Chechen sportsman but I can't find a free use image anywhere, and those two are the best choices we have. --Kuban Cossack 07:47, 10 July 2008 (UTC)

Kuban you should refrain from calling someone like Dudayev a bastard there's certain policies for that. Anyway Dudayev has been one of the most important persons in Chechen history and one of the most famous Chechens. Kadyrov on the other hand hasn't accomplished anything (because he didn't get the chance) and doesn't fit in. Anyway do you know the name of the first Chechen. - PietervHuis (talk) 13:37, 10 July 2008 (UTC)

I shall not refrain from stating the obvious, Kadyrov has not accomplished anything? And what did Dudayev accomplish, transforming a peaceful region into a breeding ground of hate, radicalisation and a warzone, not to mention ethnically cleansing it of all non-Chechens, and even Chechens that outspoke against him. Kadyrov on the other hand took the fight to radical islam, took the fight to rebuild Chechnya and to cleanse it of terrorist and militant filth. One needs not be a fool to see that Chechnya after Kadyrov's death is a lot better than Chechnya after Dudayev's death. Fact is that in a decade or so Dudayev will be forgotten, whilst Kadyrov's legacy will live on. Now that is an important distinction. However once again I am offering either to get of them both or to include them in the collage. --Kuban Cossack 14:09, 10 July 2008 (UTC)

Dudayev is factually one of the most important people of 20th century chechnya. You don't have any proof of the allegations you make above. It's also rather weird that you directly accuse him of ethnic cleansing Russians even though he married an ethnic Russian, but whatever. The man has many placenames named after him, outside of Russia/Chechnya and fits right in. So now we're back with Kadyrov who previously was part of the "filthy terrorist scum" and then switched sides; In poetics that's called a treasoner. He served as president not even for a single year and had no control over Chechnya at all. The only Kadyrov that has been important was Ramzan, and you really don't want to add him do you? Also I should probably report you now that you are using "militant filth" to describe chechen fighters. I've warned you many times but now it's just getting annoying. - PietervHuis (talk) 15:54, 10 July 2008 (UTC)

Well let's see Dadayev saw Chechnya descend into Hell, Kadyrov saw it ascend from it. The fighters are now effectively an extinct breed. Now who was a treasoner is a definition as old as one man's terrorist is another's freedom fighter. Personally I don't really have any admiration for either of the two given that there is talk which I personally would believe that Kadyrov-Papa was killed by Russia, or at least they had a role to play, for one the guy as you said did have a rather clouded past and had affairs and intrgues going around him. However per WP:FORUM must we continue this discussion? Now going back to the question I would not mind adding Kadyrov-synulya, however its not usual practice to make collages of modern living leaders, though one goes beyond doubt that Ramzan's legacy is there to stay, also its good that Kadyrov's image is free use, unlike Dudayev's or that of his papasha, and the collage must have free use images. Which brings me to the painter Dadan Idrisov's image in the collage is NOT free use, since it has no source of origin, and the guy has no article for one. --Kuban Cossack 16:32, 10 July 2008 (UTC)

"Well let's see Dadayev saw Chechnya descend into Hell, Kadyrov saw it ascend from it." Russia attacked Chechnya, that's not necessarily Dudayev's fault. "The fighters are now effectively an extinct breed." Uhhhh are you even following the news? There's fighting every day and there has been a large rise in rebel activity. Check the Jamestown Foundation. Also as I already meant to say, Ramzan Kadyrov certainly doesn't belong in there because human rights groups hold him responsible for thousands of disappearances of civilians. - PietervHuis (talk) 17:11, 10 July 2008 (UTC)

The guy's name is Kunta-haji. --Kuban Cossack 14:10, 10 July 2008 (UTC)

I have removed some non-free use violations from the gallery. I'll reiterate my points from above: galleries are generally not used on Misplaced Pages - they are better placed on Commons instead. Secondly, there is a collage template you can fill in at {{Chechen people mosaic}}. Papa November (talk) 11:01, 10 July 2008 (UTC)

Here's another Chechen from long ago with a good image. - PietervHuis (talk) 13:41, 10 July 2008 (UTC)

Not bad, but we already have Kunta-haji. --Kuban Cossack 14:09, 10 July 2008 (UTC)

both can do - PietervHuis (talk) 15:59, 10 July 2008 (UTC)

For some reason these collages cause a lot of disputes, just like in the article about Dutch people, where we discussed the same thing. So, I though the suggestion of "Captain" was reasonable. Pieter, what do you think about my recent edits elsewhere?Biophys (talk) 16:28, 10 July 2008 (UTC)

Wow, the gallery just shortened itself ;) --Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog (talk) 11:20, 11 July 2008 (UTC)

Collage so far

• Kunta-haji, no objections raised.Y Image free use. Y
• Tapa Tchermoeff, no objections raised Y Image free use. Y
• Pyotr Zakharov-Chechenets, " Y " Y
• Milana Terloeva " Y " Y
• Makka Sagaipova " Y " Y

That's five, now these ones however

• Dadan Idrisov, " Y, Image NOT of free use (no source) N
• Dzhokhar Dudayev objections raised N, Image NOT of free use N
• Akhmad Kadyrov objections raise N, Image NOT of free use N

So those three must go, now here are some suggestions to replace them:

• Sheikh Mansur Image of free use Y
• Ramzan Kadyrov Image of free use Y

That means for an 8x2 collage we need one more, alternatively we collapse it to a 6x2 template and choose one of the two above unless new suggestions are made. --Kuban Cossack 16:32, 10 July 2008 (UTC)

Dadan Idrisov doesn't even seem to be very notable so I agree on that one. I'm still in favor of keeping Dudayev, and don't think that people who have a personal grudge against him should censor him. But there doesn't seem to be a decent free image of him right now. - PietervHuis (talk) 17:16, 10 July 2008 (UTC)

I agree with what Pietervhuis says. Dudayev is almost certainly the most famous Chechen, regardless of anyone's opinion of him. Not having him there would be crazy. If we can't get a free image of him then the similar page on Ossetians offers an alternative possibility and we can just have a generic picture of a Chechen instead of the collage of famous people. --Folantin (talk) 17:28, 10 July 2008 (UTC)

Three problems with that, one no free image, two strong opposition against Dudayev, and three all ethnic groups have collages. I think having Dudayev and NOT having a pro-Russia politician in there is equally crazy and WP:POINTish. --Kuban Cossack 07:33, 11 July 2008 (UTC)

Going back to the discussion, you all named some good ideas, but find me some who have free images, I do prefer non-militant non-political leaders, and historical rather than controversial modern figures.--Kuban Cossack 07:33, 11 July 2008 (UTC)

Terloeva & (especially) Idrisov are just not notable. Terlo(y)eva photo is also of a poor quality. --Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog (talk) 11:26, 11 July 2008 (UTC)

I don't think quality at such size plays a role, we've agreed to drop Idrisov, but Terloyeva notable or not is important in filling in the gap. --Kuban Cossack 12:27, 11 July 2008 (UTC)

Dudayev is not just going to be removed because of two persons who have a grudge against him and of which one (you) openly admits that he fought against Dudayev's forces. I agree we should avoid highly controversial figures (with every ethnic group article) but I don't see how Dudayev falls into that category. I don't think we should force ourself to create a large collage since the chechens are a small ethnic group. Same goes for trying to get free images, that's only possible for the very old pictures. For now I'll update the old collage by replacing akhmad zakayev, idrisov and imam shamil. How does it look? - PietervHuis (talk) 13:59, 11 July 2008 (UTC)

Look I know of WP:ILIKEIT and WP:IDONTLIKEIT so grudge no grudge this is topical, besides have you not read there is no free image of Dudayev available, so find some other options, Ramzan Kadyrov's image is free use however but you seem to have a grudge against him. Now I can take it to a vote.

How come this page is blocked FOR A MONTH btw? - PietervHuis (talk) 14:14, 11 July 2008 (UTC)

I would tell you, but for WP:STICK I voluntary refuse to, find a neutral observer like the admin User:Papa November. --Kuban Cossack 14:28, 11 July 2008 (UTC)

It's not "my personal grudge against kadyrov", it's the fact that human rights groups say he's a war criminal. With such a small collage we can probably use fair use. - PietervHuis (talk) 14:33, 11 July 2008 (UTC)

Look just because one group says something, and another says something, else reminds me of OBS or Одна Бабка сказала rhetoric (I trust you know what I mean, you are after all an expert in this aren't you?) Since when is this a criterion for deciding who goes into the collage or not? There are plenty of sources dictating the atrocities commited under Dudayev and I am begging to see a Double standard push of a WP:POINT via the collage. Now then, perhaps you should be aware that fair use images cannot be used in collages under any circumstances, its not to illustrate a particular person, but an ethnic group, that way, that way the images there are examples, and hence violate the fair use critria on where it can be used. --Kuban Cossack 14:40, 11 July 2008 (UTC)

The general principle is to include famous and important people from the past who aren't highly controversial. Kadyrov is held responsible for thousands of disappearances, that would be the same as adding ratko mladic at Serbs wouldn't it? As your claim that there are "plenty of sources" of dudayev's crimes, sure, show some reliable ones? Truth is he is a rather respected figure both inside and outside chechnya. See all the placenames named after him. On top of that he was very important for chechnya' history. - PietervHuis (talk) 14:44, 11 July 2008 (UTC)

"Respected figure both inside and outside chechnya. See all the placenames of him" - Uh huh. So you're basing this on the fact that he has places named after him. And where's that? Georgia? Estonia?

--Miyokan (talk) 14:56, 11 July 2008 (UTC)

Turkey Latvia Ukraine Lithuania Poland Estonia Bosnia? And on top of that the capital of Chechnya was named after him by a government which was elected in free and fair elections.

- PietervHuis (talk) 15:15, 11 July 2008 (UTC)

Free and fair elections...well educated I am, seriously what kind of free and fair elections where they, when a third of the population was ethnically cleansed by that point? --Kuban Cossack 15:19, 11 July 2008 (UTC)

I agree, you seem to be very biased in trying to add Dudayev, even though the discussion is pointless since you have no free image of him. You don't want to add Kadyrov because you obviously have a grudge against him. The way things are that we don't have a free image of Dudayev, we do have a free image of Ramzan Kadyrov. Now where do we go from this since there are a shortage of notable Chechens we collapse it to 2x6 collage, and we get: Mansur, Kunta, Zakharov, Tchermoeff, Terloyeva, Sagaitova. Any objections? --Kuban Cossack 15:03, 11 July 2008 (UTC)

I'm not trying to add Dudayev, you're trying to delete him. He's been around for years. You say I have a grudge against Kadyrov while again ignoring the fact that many human rights groups hold him responsible for up to 5000 (!!) disappearances. - PietervHuis (talk) 15:08, 11 July 2008 (UTC)

Yes, because I've suggested we add him with and only with Kadyrov, however since it's become clear there is no free use image of him available then he has to be removed based on copyright law. And during Dudayev's reign at least 100 thousand ethnic Russians were forced out of their homes, many killed, places where Chechens never lived like Naursky and Shelkovsky raions etc.--Kuban Cossack 15:12, 11 July 2008 (UTC)

It doesn't make any difference, you have made it clear that you want Dudayev in the collage and not Kadyrov.--Miyokan (talk) 15:13, 11 July 2008 (UTC)

Yup, per the arguments above. Once there's a free image available he can stay. There's one on commons already. - PietervHuis (talk) 15:17, 11 July 2008 (UTC)

No he won't, because[REDACTED] goes by consensus, not by what you like or dislike.--Kuban Cossack 15:26, 11 July 2008 (UTC)

Non-free images cannot be used in collages

A quick clarification about non-free images: to use an image in a mosiac/collage, it must be in the public domain or available under a free license. This is for two reasons:

1. A mosiac using a non-free image is a derivative work, and is a copyright violation unless permission is explicitly given by the copyright holder.
2. Fair use cannot be claimed, as the point of the collage is to show what a Chechen person looks like. This can be achieved successfully using only free images, so a fair use claim is a no hoper as it fails WP:NFCC#1. Papa November (talk) 15:01, 11 July 2008 (UTC)

Consensus Proposal

• Look for sake of a consensus can we stop discussing this dead man and move back to discussion: Mansur, Kunta, Zakharov, Tchermoeff, Terloyeva, Sagaitova.
  1. Either we take those six, and add the cropped poor quality free use image of Dudayev here with Ramzan Kadyrov?
  2. Or since objections were raised about those two we take only the six above and finish this discussion. --Kuban Cossack 15:50, 11 July 2008 (UTC)

Objections suddenly means that it's not allowed to happen? Dudayev can be there without an alleged Chechen-Russian war criminal added by Russians. But because I don't want to edit war over something so insignificant AND considering the fact that the image of Dudayev is indeed of poor quality I'm fine with the first option for now. I prefer to put effort in writing articles instead of hanging onto something as silly as this. - PietervHuis (talk) 15:57, 11 July 2008 (UTC)

FINALLY a sensible answer out of you, was that so difficult to propose yourself? Now wishing to believe in your initiative I will you to make the collage yourself as I got other matters to attend to. Regards. --Kuban Cossack 16:17, 11 July 2008 (UTC)

Maybe, but as I said I still think Dudayev can go in if a better free image would appear, and I'm sure I'm not the only one. You still don't have given valid grounds to exclude him, so don't jump to conclusions that this is some sort of concensus. - PietervHuis (talk) 19:40, 11 July 2008 (UTC)

Another nice attribution would be Khanpasha Nuradilov, the Chechen Vassili Zaitsev. Here's a good image: - PietervHuis (talk) 21:17, 11 July 2008 (UTC)

Protection expired

The protection of this article has expired, and as people appear to be working more cooperatively now, we can hopefully get back to work. However, I am still watching the article carefully. Please note the following:

• Major changes (addition/removal of sections) must be proposed here first as a courtesy to other editors.
• If someone reverts your edits, do not put them back without discussing it here first.
• I will block anyone who violates WP:3RR on this article. I can't see any possible excuse for it, given the mess the article got into before. In particular, excuses along the lines of "he reverted me first" are certainly invalid.
• Any disagreements which cannot be resolved here must be taken to dispute resolution. Repeatedly reverting someone else's edits is not an acceptable solution, no matter how "wrong" they are. Dispute resolution is much more effective than requesting action from an administrator at WP:ANI.

Papa November (talk) 09:38, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

1. ^ Bernice Wuethrich (2000). "Peering Into the Past, With Words". Science. 288 (5469): 1158. doi:10.1126/science.288.5469.1158. {{cite journal}}: Unknown parameter |month= ignored (help)
2. ^ Sven Gunnar Simonsen, Chechnya

• Unassessed Russia articles
• Unknown-importance Russia articles
• Unknown-importance Unassessed Russia articles
• WikiProject Russia articles with no associated task force
• WikiProject Russia articles