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Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details. Palestine Mid‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject Palestine, a team effort dedicated to building and maintaining comprehensive, informative and balanced articles related to the geographic Palestine region, the Palestinian people and the State of Palestine on Misplaced Pages. Join us by visiting the project page, where you can add your name to the list of members where you can contribute to the discussions.PalestineWikipedia:WikiProject PalestineTemplate:WikiProject PalestinePalestine-related Mid This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale. Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details. Biography This article is within the scope of WikiProject Biography, a collaborative effort to create, develop and organize Misplaced Pages's articles about people. All interested editors are invited to join the project and contribute to the discussion. For instructions on how to use this banner, please refer to the documentation.BiographyWikipedia:WikiProject BiographyTemplate:WikiProject Biographybiography Template:WikiProject HOP

Archives

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Archives

Additional subpages Collection of sources (last updated June 2008} Sandbox (draft) page Assessment Summary page (last updated June 2008)

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Conditions for editing

I have requested that page protection be lifted for now, and I encourage people to resume editing. However, in my authority as an uninvolved administrator, I am placing some restrictions:

• No reverts, except for obvious vandalism.
• Keep edit summaries very neutral and civil.
• Ensure that any new material that is added, has a reliable source
• If you see someone add something that you disagree with, don't revert it, change it. Specifically: Try to change it to a compromise wording, or add some (sourced) alternate view wording nearby.
• If you see something added with a source, that you do not think is a reliable source, add a {{verify credibility}} tag next to it.
• If you see a sentence that you don't think properly reflects what is in a source, change it so that it does. Or, add a {{verify source}} tag to it
• If you see something that's added that is unsourced, but it's plausible, don't just remove it. Instead, add a {{fact}} tag to it. Then, if no source is provided in a reasonable amount of time, the statement can be removed.
• If something is added that is unsourced, that is obviously troublesome (such as very biased or potentially untrue), it can be deleted on the spot. Please use a clear edit summary such as "removing unsourced information, see talkpage"). If there is a source though, then use one of the other above steps instead.
• Don't worry about sections, or the article, getting too long (for now). First I'd like to give everyone a chance to add the information that they think needs to be added, and then we can take a look later at putting things in the proper proportion, per WP:UNDUE

Bottom line: Stay civil. Don't revert other editors. If you disagree with an addition, don't delete it, change it.

Good luck, Elonka 16:25, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

Administrative notes

This section is for the use of uninvolved administrators in managing the dispute on this page

Uninvolved admins

• Elonka (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA)
• MZMcBride (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA)
• PhilKnight (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA)
• Jayvdb (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA)
• Wizardman (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA)

Editors under ArbCom restrictions

The following active editors on this page have been notified of restrictions, per Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Palestine-Israel articles

• Julia1987 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log)
  • Note: Julia1987 was previously editing as Southkept (talk · contribs)
• ChrisO (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log) (admin participating as involved editor)
• Wikifan12345 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log)
• Tundrabuggy (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log)
• Canadian Monkey (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log)
• Jaakobou (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log)
• PalestineRemembered (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log)

Other frequent editors on this page

Note: Being listed here does not imply that these editors were disruptive. It is simply for reference, a list of those editors who have recently been actively engaged with this article.

• Beit Or (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log)
• CJCurrie (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log) (admin participating as involved editor)
• JGGardiner (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log)
• Kauffner (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log)
• Kelly (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log)
• Leifern (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log)
• Liftarn (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log)
• Moreschi (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log) (admin participating as involved editor)
• Nickhh (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log)
• Pedrito (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log)
• Relata refero (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log)
• SlimVirgin (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log) (admin participating as involved editor)
• Tarc (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log)
• SJP (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log)
• 6SJ7 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log)

Admin log

• ChrisO (talk · contribs), for violating the editing conditions, has been banned from this talkpage for 1 week, and from editing the article for one month. --Elonka 01:57, 15 June 2008 (UTC)
• Julia1987 (talk · contribs) banned for one month from editing the lead section of the article (this includes any changes to the caption of the top image). She is still allowed to make other changes to the rest of the article, and to participate at the talkpage. She is also strongly encouraged to spend some time editing other articles than just this one. --Elonka 15:34, 15 June 2008 (UTC)
• Tundrabuggy (talk · contribs) ban modified, from 90-day total ban on article and talkpage, to only a ban on article-editing (this was after good contributions by Tundrabuggy on other articles, and discussion between administrators Elonka, MZMcbride, and Jayvdb). Tundrabuggy is allowed to resume participation at the talkpage, and is encouraged to continue editing other articles as well, trying to find at least a 50-50 balance between al-Durrah edits and other work. --Elonka 04:38, 17 June 2008 (UTC)
• Tundrabuggy (talk · contribs) editing ban lifted, based on excellent work editing and creating other non-Durrah articles. He once again has full privileges to edit the article and participate at the talkpage, in accordance with the current conditions for editing. He is still strongly encouraged to maintain a 50-50 balance (or better) between al-Durrah edits and other work. --Elonka 01:36, 29 June 2008 (UTC)
• Wizardman and I chatted about this off-wiki, and to summarize: Wizardman (talk · contribs) is now chief mediator for the dispute on this article. He is the point person for content issues, while I (Elonka) will remain as point person for user conduct issues, specifically as related to the Conditions for Editing and any needed discretionary sanctions. All editors are invited to post a statement at Misplaced Pages talk:Mediation Cabal/Cases/2008-06-17 Muhammad al-Durrah to help the mediation get going. --Elonka 20:54, 29 June 2008 (UTC)
• Wikifan12345 (talk · contribs) banned from article and talkpage for one week. He is still allowed (and encouraged) to participate at mediation. --Elonka 22:52, 1 July 2008 (UTC)

Discussion

Anyone, admin or editor, who has questions or comments on any of the above, may post here.

I have started the above section for my own (Elonka's) notes, to keep track of who's who, and also so that everyone knows where they stand in terms of ArbCom restrictions. If the section grows too large, I may move it to a subpage. Any other uninvolved admins who are interested in this dispute, are welcome to update the above lists, though of course you should avoid changing another admin's restrictions, unless you check with them first. Thanks, Elonka 03:47, 15 June 2008 (UTC)

This is a bad idea. "No reverts" is completely unworkable if one wishes to maintain our core policies and values. -- Ned Scott 04:24, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

This is backed up by ArbCom. See Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Palestine-Israel articles#Discretionary sanctions: (emphasis added) "Any uninvolved administrator may, on his or her own discretion, impose sanctions on any editor working in the area of conflict if, despite being warned, that editor repeatedly or seriously fails to adhere to the purpose of Misplaced Pages, any expected standards of behavior, or any normal editorial process. The sanctions imposed may include blocks of up to one year in length; bans from editing any page or set of pages within the area of conflict; bans on any editing related to the topic or its closely related topics; restrictions on reverts or other specified behaviors; or any other measures which the imposing administrator believes are reasonably necessary to ensure the smooth functioning of the project." --Elonka 04:38, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

I think ORR for everyone is a very good idea on an article like this. I started to rewrite it last year, and ended up taking it off my watchlist because of the reverting on both sides. It's frustrating when someone adds a version you don't like and you can't revert it, but the challenge then is to improve it. The article should get better bit by bit if we each use the last editor's work as a platform, rather than something to be discarded. SlimVirgin 04:50, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

(To Elonka) You made a blanket restriction, which arbcom did not authorize. Arbcom said you could place restrictions on editors, if "despite being warned, that editor repeatedly or seriously fails to adhere to the purpose of Misplaced Pages, any expected standards of behavior, or any normal editorial process." In other words, the restriction should not apply to every user on the project. -- Ned Scott 05:18, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

I placed restrictions on the article, which are effectively restrictions on all of the editors who are participating at this article. When an editor, in my opinion, does not abide by those restrictions, I have the authority to place increased restrictions, such as I did with ChrisO and Julia1987. If you disagree with the actions being taken here by uninvolved administrators, you (or any editor) are welcome to file an appeal, though I personally think that would be getting a bit WP:POINTy, especially since there is an extensive history of prior warnings. Still though, you are welcome to do this if you choose. Appeal instructions are at the ArbCom case page. --Elonka 05:47, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

I only noticed this because ChrisO's talk page was on my watchlist. I haven't really looked into the merits of ChrisO's or Julia's arguments, but that would besides the point. Consider my comments here as a word of caution, that a blanket restriction on reverting is extremely unwise. It makes sense only in the context of a dispute, but not outside of that. I have no real interest in this situation or this article, but I saw this as a very big flaw, and felt the need to say something about it. -- Ned Scott 05:57, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

For most articles on Misplaced Pages that are not in dispute, I would agree that a "no revert" restriction would seem bizarre. However, the context here on this article, is a longrunning dispute that has been characterized by an excessive amount of reverting and edit-warring. Usual practice in these cases is to protect the article and not let anyone edit at all. However, my feeling is that a simple limit on reverts, along with the other #Conditions for editing as I have described above, provide a better-crafted solution than all-out protection. --Elonka 19:29, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

• (reset indent) I think N.S is talking about the fact that normally a blanket restriction of revert isn't a common solution for a problematic area. - Penwhale | 14:59, 19 June 2008 (UTC)
  • I agree that it is not a common solution. However, I am one of the people that was tasked by ArbCom to participate in the Working group on ethnic and cultural edit wars. Over the last few months, we have been discussing Misplaced Pages's ethnic disputes in some depth, as well as examining previously tried solutions for dealing with them, to identify successes and failures, and try to compile a list of "best practices", as well as brainstorming possible new techniques. Results so far from the Working Group have included an overhaul of procedures for dealing with disruptive editors, the Misplaced Pages:New admin school/Dealing with disputes page, a successful reconciliation project at User:Elonka/Hungarian-Slovakian experiment, and (though we can't take credit for this, but I did encourage it), the new Misplaced Pages:Ethnic and cultural conflicts noticeboard, primarily spearheaded by Folantin's group and Moreschi. In other words, there is an active movement by multiple editors and taskforces to try new methods of dealing with these longrunning ethnic conflicts on Misplaced Pages. When I volunteered to help out on this Muhammad al-Durrah article, I did so not just as a random uninvolved admin, but also as part of my WorkGroup research, as I'm trying to get a feel for the various types of ethnic conflicts on Misplaced Pages, ranging from Hungarian/Slovakian to Turkish/Assyrian to Polish/Lithuanian to Israeli/Palestinian, to the Irish "Troubles", the Sri Lankan topic area, and so forth. If my methods here are a bit unorthodox, well, okay, but I would also point out that they are working. This article, which used to be protected and in the middle of a severe dispute that was causing threads to sprout up on admin boards all over Misplaced Pages, has calmed down considerably since my restrictions of June 10. And all of this with no further page protection, and no editors being blocked. Just a clear set of restrictions, a lot of communication and education, a few brief page bans, and everyone else is allowed to get back to work, with no aggravating "black marks" in people's block logs. The article is once again in a state of healthy editing, with editors flowing through and making a steady series of edits to improve it. And all this in just a week. I'm not sure what else could be seen as a better marker of success? --Elonka 03:55, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

This is not a diary

Since the whole article is about the controversy, the reader should not have to read several paragraphs to discover that the IDF might not have killed the child. The article isn't a movie about how the whole case developed, nor is it a melodrama. It should clearly state that there is serious question as to whether the child was killed by IDF or Palestinian gunfire. Note that this does not allow for any interpretation that the article supports a POV that the child might not be dead. If somebody thinks it does, please feel free to fix that, but that the IDF may not have kill the boy, should be stated right up front.Sposer (talk) 05:28, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

Sposer, I removed from the first sentence that he was reported killed by X, and changed it simply to was reported killed during a clash between X and Y. So it now says: "Muhammad Jamal al-Durrah (1988-2000) was a Palestinian boy reported to have been killed by gunfire during a clash between the Israel Defense Forces (IDF) and Palestinian Security Forces in the Gaza Strip on September 30, 2000, at the start of the Second Intifada." SlimVirgin 08:04, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

Unfortunately, CJCurrie has reverted me. SlimVirgin 08:22, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

I disagree with SlimVirgin's interpretation of events. For details, please consult this statement. CJCurrie (talk) 09:25, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

Once again, this omits the essential fact that he was reported to have been killed by Israeli gunfire. Do you think it would have had one tenth of the impact if the shooting had been blamed on Palestinian gunfire? It also restores the highly weaselly "reported killed" wording, when the overwhelming majority of our sources say definitively that he was killed . -- ChrisO (talk) 09:45, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

I agree with ChrisO here. The propaganda value of the MaD affair lay in the claim that he was killed by the Israelis. Otherwise, it would indeed have passed unnoticed just as thousands of children murdered in miscellaneous conflicts around the world pass unnoticed. Beit Or 10:34, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

Exactly. It was used as a symbol (or would synecdoche be the right term?) of "Israeli brutality". -- ChrisO (talk) 10:58, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

I agree, so let's make clear in the first sentence that the article is about propaganda and symbolism, and not about an actual event that probably didn't occur the way the propaganda says it occurred, and may not really have occurred at all. 6SJ7 (talk) 13:55, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

Regarding the "overwhelming majority" comment, what are the dates of a few of the most recent major reliable sources that "definitively say he was killed"? Thanks, --Elonka 16:31, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

Regarding SlimVirgin's report of a revert, I took a look, and she is correct that CJCurrie did revert the article, but CJCurrie's explanation that this was a simple mistake, followed by an immediate correction a moment later, is reasonable. I also agree that CJCurrie's subsequent edits were in compliance with the conditions for editing, in that they were changes to the text, rather than reverts. For the purpose of this article, I define "revert" as something that might be done with the "undo" or "rollback" buttons, meaning a clean revert back to a previous version. As long as CJCurrie (or any other editor) is actively trying to find compromise wording, the editing is acceptable. There does appear to be some rapid back and forth on the article today, but I see this as a good thing, which I hope will lead towards consensus wording that everyone is more or less happy with. --Elonka 16:24, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

Elonka, CJCurrie did not correct himself a moment later, and still hasn't. This edit of his reverted this edit of mine just half and hour after I made it, and the revert remains in the article. SlimVirgin 18:49, 6 July 2008 (UTC)

I addressed SlimVirgin's concern in my initial response. This was not a "revert" in the sense that the term is being used here, as a direct comparison of the edits should indicate. CJCurrie (talk) 23:38, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

Postage stamps

The article currently shows a rather low-res and not very clear image of a postage stamp from Tunisia reproducing a frame from the footage. It turns out that in September 2001, most Arab states (Morocco, Libya, Jordan, Tunisia, Egypt, UAE...) did a coordinated release of postage stamps showing the al-Durrah footage. I think this might be worth mentioning in the article. Also, I've got hold of two of the stamps in question from Jordan, showing how the footage was combined with other symbols of the conflict (e.g. the al-Aqsa mosque), presumably for propaganda purposes. I propose to replace the existing image of the Tunisian stamp with a better quality image of the equivalent Jordanian stamps - see right for the image and caption. Any objections to this? -- ChrisO (talk) 13:39, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

If any other editor agrees that the image of these stamps would be useful to the article, you are welcome to add them, as ChrisO is still under an editing restriction. Also as a sidenote, there seem to be multiple memorials to the boy, not just stamps, so it might be worthwhile to try and find photos of those, as well. --Elonka 16:27, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

I'm happy to add the image to the article, but it's about to be deleted, so we need some kind of rationale. I'll add one later if I have time, or perhaps someone else could do it in the meantime. SlimVirgin 18:39, 6 July 2008 (UTC)

It has a rationale already. It's only about to be deleted because it's currently orphaned. If you add it to the article, that will no longer be a problem. -- ChrisO (talk) 18:46, 6 July 2008 (UTC)

Ah, okay. SlimVirgin 18:52, 6 July 2008 (UTC)

I believe all of these (from each country) should be added into a small gallery display of the related stamps. i.e. I think we shouldn't remove the one from Tunisia. Jaakobou 18:49, 6 July 2008 (UTC) clarify. 18:50, 6 July 2008 (UTC)

I don't know about that... I'm not sure it would be very useful, to be honest. I've seen most of the stamps (in the Stanley Gibbons catalogue) and they are substantively identical in design and theme. The Jordanian version is probably the best of the bunch in terms of aesthetic value and the clarity of its design, which is why I selected it. I also think there would be potential copyright issues with providing a gallery of stamps given that the article is not specifically about them (hence a fair use claim would be weak). I intended the Jordanian stamps to replace the Tunisian one rather than supplement it, partly for that reason. -- ChrisO (talk) 22:09, 6 July 2008 (UTC)

Lead again

I'm thinking that the current lead] is pretty factual and neutral. Does anyone disagree, and if so, what point(s) exactly do you feel are still not right? SlimVirgin 21:46, 6 July 2008 (UTC)

Do you think saying he was shot by the Palestinian Authority forces makes it sound as if he was deliberately shot? If so, we could change the second sentence to:

"Subsequent investigations have challenged the report, asserting either that the shots came from the Palestinian Security Forces, or that the incident was staged." Thoughts?Sposer (talk) 22:34, 6 July 2008 (UTC)

Were all the Palestinian shooters members of their security forces? I suggest that a wording like "asserting either that al-Durrah and his father were struck by bullets fired from Palestinian positions, or ..." -- ChrisO (talk) 22:59, 6 July 2008 (UTC)

Done. SlimVirgin 23:42, 6 July 2008 (UTC)

I'm satisfied with it as it stands. Let me know when we get down to paragraph 2, where the point needs to be clearly made that Enderlin's report said: "targeted." . That's key to this story. As it stands now, the paragraph skirts this. "Targeted" means "aimed at." Enderlin said the Israelis targeted this 12 year old boy and shot at him until he was dead. Let's not whitewash anyone -- this is public knowledge. -- Tundrabuggy (talk) 00:43, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

I think it would be best to use a direct quote from Enderlin's voiceover. I think a fair translation of his original wording is that the boy and his father were "the target of shots coming from the Israeli position". (Ils sont la cible des tirs venus de la position israélienne) Sanguinalis (talk) 01:33, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

I think we're pretty far from a factual and neutral lead, though Slim Virgin tagging her version and opening a new discussion is helpful. Here are just a few of the problems:

1. I strongly disagree with: The original reports stemmed from 59 seconds of a 27-minute tape. The implication, that the Abu Rahma footage was the only evidence that informed the original reportage, is simply not true. For example, there is Jamal al-Durrah's testimony from his hospital bed (as in this BBC article ). There is the original IDF investigation which was done within three days of the shooting. There is the fact that a funeral was held. I am aware that supporters of the hoax view believe the funeral was staged and Jamal al-Durrah was putting on an act, but for such a hoax to go undetected and influence world reporting would have required a lot more than cooking 59 seconds of videotape.
2. Charles Enderlin, who was not present during the incident, who attributed the shooting to the IDF based on the belief of the cameraman. This is well poisoning. A standard procedure in televisions news is being made to sound sinister. I think it is understood by viewers that television news reports are put together by teams of people, and that the person doing the voiceover is not necessarily present at every single time and place being shown. Also, Enderlin only said in his original voiceover that the shots came from the direction of the Israeli position.
3. triggering widespread condemnation of Israel. Highly questionable. I don't recall any condemnation in the halls of the US Congress, for example. Certainly there was anger in the Muslim world, but I think it is a mistake to assume this was all because of France 2. I believe it likely that people in Muslim countries would have believed the testimony of the boy's father, not to mention the other Palestinian witnesses, regardless of what Enderlin said in his voiceover.

Sanguinalis (talk) 01:09, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

Hi Sanguinalis, to address your points: (1) I believe the original reports were broadcast before the interview with the father (which was conducted the next day by the same cameraman), and before the funeral and IDF investigation. The original reports were based simply on the cameraman's footage. (2) Using controversial footage from lone cameramen is not standard procedure; there would normally be a correspondent, producer, reporter, or researcher present. (3) The anger against Israel was certainly "widespread," notwithstanding that it wasn't everywhere. SlimVirgin 05:00, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

I think the hoax stuff is not really necessary, since I suspect few believe it outside of conspiracy theorists. However, it was the initial report and video that caught everybody's attention, not the IDF apology and initial admission, nor the interview of the father. Remove the hoax stuff, but the reaction was before the Israel apologized and admitted, or before anybody had spoken to the father. As far as Enderlin not being there, it is still the reporter's job to check his sources and be sure there wasn't any bias involved. As far as condemnation goes, the U.S. actually waits to get both sides of the story. Israel initially apologized (and later said they didn't do it). There is nothing to condemn if Israel apologizes and says that is not how they normally, or intend to act in the future (I am not getting into an argument over what Israel did, does or doesn't do, I am talking theoretically here).Sposer (talk) 01:36, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

Sanguinalis, I think we were only talking about the the 1st paragraph of the lead (1st couple of sentences of the lead) I agree that the 2nd paragraph has problems though disagree with your perspective on it. I edited to put in the actual wording of Enderlin. Enderlin actually said the boy and his father were "the target of fire from the Israeli position." You can find it quoted here and they have a link to streaming video at that article as well. While it is true that news reports are put together by teams, it is incumbent on the broadcaster not to assert something quite so pointedly accusatory (Israel targeted a 12 year old boy) without strong evidence. Considering the nature of the whole story, people need to know that Charles Enderlin was not at the scene reporting this. I suspect you wouldn't have heard condemnation right away in the the US Congress, since we try not to condemn countries and people before they have had a chance to investigate, get access to the facts (the film, the bullets, etc), and get a fair hearing -- "innocent until proven guilty." We don't always get it right, but we try. --Tundrabuggy (talk) 01:41, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

I don't agree with this edit. (1) Enderlin "asserted" sounds a bit strained. (2) Adding "while" implies that he didn't know what he was talking about. (3) There is no need to quote him. (4) He has said several times that he based his report on the belief of the cameraman, so I see no reason to remove that. SlimVirgin 04:54, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

SlimVirgin, 1) I could go with "said," or "claimed" 2) Someone else wrote the part about him not being there, I just worked it in 3) I think quoting him is extremely important - that way no one is editorializing on what he said or why he said it. All we know is what he actually said. Later in the article, when we go into further detail, then fine, add the fact that he said he based his report on the cameraman's say-so 4)In the current state of the fullness of our knowledge, the idea that he based his report on the belief of the cameraman is definitely 'iffy'. If so, why did he edit out the last 10 seconds of film which to many looks like the boy is still alive and "peeking" at the camera? Worse still, how do we know what the cameraman "believed"? The court has said that his testimony was unreliable. That is the very essence of the conflict here. The simplest way to deal with questions of fact is simply to quote the words. And the word "target" is extremely important. Had he said that the Israelis had accidentally shot the boy, or that we don't know who did it pending investigation, the event might well have had a (somewhat) different impact. --Tundrabuggy (talk) 13:21, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

Hi TB, the point about adding "while" is that it actively joins "wasn't there" with "did a voiceover anyway," implying that he shouldn't have done the latter. Leaving the two clauses unconnected implies that much less, if at all.

Regarding the cameraman, I think it's important to stress that the cameraman was the sole source for what allegedly happened, because he seems to have been the only witness, notwithstanding that the area was full of people. Enderlin had no direct knowledge at all. He has said that he relied on the cameraman's testimony. We can use "testimony" rather than "belief," so that we don't make assumptions about internal mental states, if you like.

I don't like quoting unless absolutely necessary, because in contentious articles you often end up with a list of quotes instead of a narrative, because no one dares paraphrase.

Yes, I take your point about "target." SlimVirgin 19:43, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

Thanks to recent changes, as well as having 50% of the lead discussing the minutiae of the criticisms of the France 2 report (rather than having that detail in the main part of the article), we now have an unqualified reference to the "staged" allegations right at the very top of the page, as if they are worthy of due weight with everything else. Oh and btw Abu Rahma is not merely a "cameraman" - he describes himself and is described by others as a "correspondent" and "journalist". The current wording does, as suggested, verge on well-poisoning. Unfortunately this article inches closer every day towards being swamped by a "Palestinians lie" narrative. All very nasty. --Nickhh (talk) 10:27, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

Nick, do you have a (pre-shooting) mainstream third-party source who describes him as a journalist/correspondent? SlimVirgin 19:46, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

Hopefully, without the hoax mention, the lede is now completely neutral. It states that the initial reports implied that the boy and his father were hit by Israeli gunfire, while later reports suggested otherwise. For the reader to have to move several paragraphs down to discover the later controversy gives the article a POV opposite what later court cases and evidence may show. Adding the hoax story gives undue weight to that idea, and I removed it. There is nothing now that suggests any sort of Palestinian lie in the lede, and I am not going into the rest of the miasma that is this story. I do not know enough about the cameraman versus reporter part to comment on that, but I used to hold a press card, wrote many articles in financial magazines, and called myself a reporter and journalist. Few would have agreed with that. I have no idea what the gentleman's credentials are, but his own description is probably not a very good source.Sposer (talk) 12:43, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

I strongly disagree with your edit, for reasons that have been stated over and over on this page. Many people now appear to believe that this may have been a hoax, and not to put it in the lead is to ignore the latest developments in the case. Anecdotal evidence about personal qualifications in this media is meaningless. To your assertion that the lead now no longer suggests "any sort of Palestinian lie" - I would just say that if individual Palestinians are caught a lie that doesn't make it a "Palestinian" lie. -- Tundrabuggy (talk) 13:44, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

My god, this is an unadulterated, bald-faced lie. There is absolutely no truth to the claim that "most people believe this may have been a hoax." Theres no place at all in this page for mention of the lunatic hoax claim, **especially** not in the first damn sentence! 70.244.83.107 (talk) 13:53, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

In fact, no one on this page or on the article said what you claim. On this page I said "many people" and in the article I said "some." "Subsequent investigations have challenged this conclusion, with some asserting that the boy may have been killed by gunfire from the Palestinian Security Forces, and others suggesting that the entire episode was staged." Tundrabuggy (talk) 15:24, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

Anon, your comment violates WP:CIVIL. Please be aware that this is a highly controversial article, and inflammatory comments on the talkpage are not helpful. You are welcome to participate in a civil and constructive way in the discussion, but if you persist with uncivil comments, your account access will be blocked. --Elonka 14:09, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

The "hoax" allegations are mentioned further down in the lead, and they have been for ages. Given the (limited) coverage of the Karsenty case, this is fair enough to some extent - however it should not be one of the first things that is flagged up. It remains, as has also been "stated over and over", a minority view. The problem is that people keep stuffing this article - from the first paragraph down - with as many instances of the words "allegedly", "reportedly" and "supposedly" as they can and then thanks to the 0RR rule, no-one can remove it. For instance Slim Virgin has done that here. And this daft theory is not just about claims that one or two Palestinians were lying - if the hoax theory is true, a huge number of Palestinians and Jordanians must have been in on the conspiracy, along with whole swathes of the world's media, and still are to this day. That is what all these edits are insinuating. Not only is it ridiculous, it's offensive. --Nickhh (talk) 14:03, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

I agree that sometimes one can have too much of a good thing. But if we can just start at the top and work our way down, I think we can get the rest of the article to reflect the current state of affairs. If we allude to all the controversies in the opening, we can avoid all the allegeds and reportedlys down below. The hoax theory might be offensive to some, but it has to be less offensive than the idea he was shot by Palestinians, which has been accepted in the lead, and is believed by some. As for offensive, the story that the Israelis targeted the boy in cold blood is offensive, particularly if it isn't true. --Tundrabuggy (talk) 15:36, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

Well simply on the general point of language, I take the view that an accusation becomes more offensive the more implausible it is, and the more it attempts to generalise about a particular group of people and their overall behaviour. Yes it may also be offensive to suggest either that the IDF or Palestinian policemen/gunmen shot him, but one or the other of those alternatives is also almost certainly what happened. And guns do tend to kill people, so it's hardly an unfair accusation either way. --Nickhh (talk) 17:35, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

It is an unfair accusation if it accuses someone falsely, as in this case. Your link, of course, demonstrates your POV and is a great example of how ellipses can be used to put words in people's mouths, and quite possibly shows the use of selective language used to smear. Whether Barak did or did not say what your article claims he said has zero to do with this article. Nor does the degree of implausibility have anything to do with something's offensiveness. There is much in this life that is implausible, inoffensive and true. Something is implausible only before it is demonstrated to be true. Tundrabuggy (talk) 21:31, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

Read the complete original account of the interview if you wish to. I think the words are pretty clear, with or without the - single - apparent break in the quotation. The point I am making by linking to it is nothing to do with my POV, but is simply to highlight that there is an undeniable tradition in both Western and Israeli discourse of painting Arabs and Palestinians as being habitual liars. The promotion of the al Durrah hoax theory is part of that tradition in my view, hence its relevance here. On an even more general point, I guess we just disagree that it's offensive to accuse a whole group of people of doing something that is both morally wrong and implausible, although you seem to have gotten half way there by making the point that it is "unfair" to accuse someone "falsely" (perhaps you could explain the subtle difference there?) Oh and finally, implausibility is not of course the state that immediately and necessarily precedes being inevitably proven true - most things that start off implausible remain as unlikely to be true as they always were. --Nickhh (talk) 22:00, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

The plausibility of this hoax theory does not rest on an "undeniable tradition ... of painting Arabs and Palestinians as...habitual liars." In the first place, I take issue with your contention. It is neither "undeniable" nor a "tradition," and in the second, even if it were true, it would prove nothing about this case. I would say it demonstrates a prejudice on your part, and would never be heard in court. In fairness to all, each event needs to be judged on its merits. - Tundrabuggy (talk) 19:59, 8 July 2008 (UTC)

The 0RR rule means that people should not use the "undo" or "rollback" buttons to completely wipe out someone else's edits. However, everyone is still welcome to change the text to try and find a compromise version. Just don't use "revert" as an editing tool. --Elonka 14:14, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

I am assuming though that if I were to remove those words, even if I did it "manually", it would be treated as a revert. As I say, that's the problem ... it prevents edit-warring but isn't necessarily a solution to the underlying and bigger problem. --Nickhh (talk) 17:37, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

"Triggering widespread condemnation"

I plan to return to the other points I raised, and the responses to them, later, but for now I will limit my comments to the clause triggering widespread condemnation of Israel. I think it's time for those who want this clause to stay in the lead to come up with some evidence. To justify "widespread" the condemnation has to come from more than just the Arab and Muslim countries. What is needed are statements from world leaders, editorials in major newspapers, and so forth. This article has had a "Reaction" section for a long time and no such statements are to be found there. The only reactions mentioned are those of: the immediate family, Israel, the Muslim world, and Amnesty International (the latter in a lengthy report that criticizes both sides in the conflict and doesn't mention al-Durrah until page 15). If what is meant is condemnation in the Muslim world, it is certainly open to question (as I have pointed out above) whether that reaction was "triggered" by the France 2 report specifically. After all, there was widespread condemnation against Israel within the Muslim world long before Muhammed al-Durrah was even born. I suggest striking this clause. Sanguinalis (talk) 01:36, 8 July 2008 (UTC)

Oct. 1, 2000:From US ABC's Gillian Findlay also says the boy died "under Israeli fire." From a UN paper: "In many instances, the soldiers of the occupying Power have committed wilful killings, including the highly publicized killing of a 12-year-old boy, Mohammed Jamal Al-Durra, as well as wilfully causing great suffering and serious injury to many other Palestinians." From the UK "While the world condemns Israel, this tragedy will never end.From France: "Hundreds demonstrate in support of Palestinians in eastern France" $2.95 - BBC Archive - NewsBank - Oct 7, 2000 Strasbourg, 7th October: Around 1500 demonstrators, including around 30 children ... aged between 5 and 7 carried photographs of Muhammad Jamal al-Durra, ... This from the US - PALESTINE: Doctors condemn Israeli tactics "But international outrage at Israel's tactics is growing. Stunned by the image of 12-year-old Rami Al-Dura, who was shot by Israeli soldiers, international human rights organisations are demanding investigations into Israel's methods of containing civil unrest." Tundrabuggy (talk) 18:35, 8 July 2008 (UTC)

Tundrabuggy, thanks for finding these sources. Unfortunately they do not support the assertion that is in question here. First, allow me to point out that I specifically asked for statements from world leaders or editorials in major newspapers and none of your examples are that. Moving on to what you did provide:

1. From US (James Fallows' Atlantic Monthly article). The same article says Print outlets were generally careful to say that Mohammed al-Dura was killed in "the crossfire" or "an exchange of fire" between Israeli soldiers and Palestinians. An American network news broadcasts that, correctly or incorrectly, attributes the death of one child to "Israeli fire" does not constitute "condemnation of Israel". Note that your criticism of Endlerlin's voiceover, that it implied Israel deliberately killed al-Durrah, clearly does not apply to the ABC broadcast, which did no such thing.
2. From a UN paper (Letter from the Permanent Observer of Palestine) The organization that wrote this letter is associated with the Palestinian Authority and therefore counts as part of the Arab/Muslim world.
3. From the UK (An opinion piece published in the Daily Telegraph) Irrelevant since al-Durrah is not mentioned.
4. From France I'm not able to find the article. Your link appears to be to a copy of the Mitchell Report. Anyway a single demonstration is not "worldwide condemnation".
5. (A BBC article) I'm not able to find this, as you didn't provide a link.
6. From the US Actually this is a reprint of an article by Suzanne Goldenberg of the Guardian, a British newspaper. The article begins with a description of the treatment of Mohammed Abu Faress for chest injuries sustained under fire by Israeli soldiers, and then goes on to describe charges by Palestinian doctors that the Israeli military was deliberately shooting the heads and upper bodies of demonstrators. A lot of cases are described. I'm not sure you really want to use this article as a source, as it confirms that four Palestinian youths were injured by Israeli fire an Netzarim junction the day after al-Durrah was shot. In any case, it's clear that the al-Durrah incident was not the only thing the human rights groups were criticizing Israel for in 2000.

I consider the "triggered worldwide condemnation" phrase to be harmful, since it implies that the France 2 story about al-Durrah was the only reason anyone could have been angry at Israel at this time. As if Israel's settlements in Gaza and the West Bank, the confiscated land and the checkpoints, Sharon's visit to the Temple Mount, the 7 Palestinians killed in Jerusalem the day before al-Durrah was shot, Israel's tactics of destroying homes, razing orchards, etc., etc., would not have caused anyone to demonstrate, any Palestinians to file a protest in the UN, any human rights groups to raise questions about Israeli methods, if it were not for Charles Enderlin and Talal Abu Rahma. Clearly that's not something that can stand as an indisputable or verifiable fact. Sanguinalis (talk) 03:21, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

There is nothing in the phrase that implies that the incident was the only reason why others might be angry at Israel. After all, it wasn't even the first Intifada against Israel. Prior to this incident, there had been numerous other wars with the countries around it. Israel's settlements, conflicts over the Temple Mount, and the killing of both Israelis and Palestinians in this conflict had gone on since the birth of modern Israel and before. Back to the point concerning "worldwide condemnation," this incident was made to make it look as if Israel targeted an innocent 12 year old boy and shot at him for 45 minutes. That would trigger worldwide condemnation if anyone had done it, don't you agree? It is not required to have heads of state or political parties denounce Israel in order to prove "worldwide condemnation" -- just plain folks as can be demonstrated in the headlines of newspapers at the time. Tundrabuggy (talk) 13:20, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

Apparently then, by "worldwide condemenation" you mean demonstrations in Europe in support of the Palestinians, and reports by human rights groups critical of Israel, because that's all you have been able to document (I don't know what "headlines of newspapers at the time" you are referring to, as none of the sources you provided were headline stories). To say those demonstrations and human rights reports were "triggered" by France 2 distributing its news footage does in fact imply that those demonstrations would not have taken place and the human rights reports not been published had France 2 not done that, and that is simply impossible to prove. We must stick to objective, verifiable facts, and not draw conclusions based on what we figure must have happened if such and such occurred. Besides, the voiceover was not distributed along with the footage. All we know is that the footage was distributed worldwide. How it was broadcast and what reaction if any it brought forth may very well have varied considerably from country to country. In the United States, we know from James Fallows' article that is was shown on all three major network news shows, and yet, according to the same article, "The name Mohammed al-Dura is barely known in the United States". So no, without direct evidence we cannot make any conclusions about what kind of impression the footage made in other countries. Sanguinalis (talk) 20:26, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

Assuming what you say is correct, it sort of makes one wonder whether there is enough notability for an article at all, particularly under the current title. 6SJ7 (talk) 20:38, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

You can't be serious. A person does not have to make front-page headlines around the world to be meet Misplaced Pages's notability guidelines. Besides, everyone agrees that al-Durrah is a household name in the Arab and Muslims countries. That by itself justifies this article, though it does not equate to "worldwide condemnation of Israel". Sanguinalis (talk) 21:02, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

Actually, the article says "widespread", not "worldwide" condemnation, but I still maintain that implies more than just the Arab and Muslim countries. Sanguinalis (talk) 21:18, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

No, I can't be serious. This whole area on Misplaced Pages is a farce, so how can I be serious? 6SJ7 (talk) 02:44, 13 July 2008 (UTC)

On the "widespread" versus "worldwide" issue, this contemporary article describes it as a "worldwide furore". Interestingly, it also quotes one of the ambulance men who took the al Durrahs to hospital, and indicates that both were still alive when they entered the ambulance (though obviously not when they left it). -- ChrisO (talk) 09:07, 13 July 2008 (UTC)

um, not overly contemporary -- Oct 3, 2000! Your statement suggesting that Mohammed was dead after they left the ambulance is not borne out by the article you quote. It quotes a person named Bassam al-Bilbays, who was riding with the ambulance (not necessarily "one of the ambulance men" as you claim) says : "There was still some breath left in him when we reached the ambulance, but when we opened the doors, they started shooting again." This person does not claim Mohammed Al-Durrah was dead when they arrived at hospital! We mustn't read more into an article than is actually there. Speaking to "widespread condemnation" issue again: this article from the JPost quotes Glen Lewy the ADL National Chair and Abraham Foxman, National Director of ADL saying that the France 2 report "incited much hatred and violence toward Israel." They also mention in passing that the additional footage has "advanced serious arguments that the entire incident was staged." Tundrabuggy (talk) 02:14, 14 July 2008 (UTC)

The ADL is a a political organization. A statement from one of its directors should not be used as a source for anything except what the views of the ADL are. Sanguinalis (talk) 10:48, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

A statement from both the Director and the Chair of the ADL reflects the opinion (views) of lots of Jews, and others. Tundrabuggy (talk) 22:04, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

Not unless the Director and Chair of the ADL possess the equivalent of papal infallibility. They speak for their organisation - some Jews may choose to support what they say, but it's a lazy generalization to claim that they speak for all Jews. -- ChrisO (talk) 08:11, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

Give it up

seriously guys, regardless of what is said in this talk, unjustified hate and fallacy-driven (bandwagoning, poisoning the well, etc..) will continue until wiki authorities update its flawed agenda. for more info i suggest turning to http://en.wikipedia.org/List_of_fallacies. there youll find a plethora of fallacies, many of which have been demonstrated time and time again in this discussion. tundra, 6, and everyone else fighting for logic, give it up. nothing is going to change until wikipedia ends its unwritten policy of supporting the biased, hateful, and malicious acts perpetrated by the israeli bashing masses. we should be spending more time on articles that have potential for change. al-durrah is dead and will forever be dead until the powers that be (not pointing figures at anyone specific) stir up the courage to act. cheers. Wikifan12345 (talk) 07:58, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

The shooting

I've changed the statement that said the shooting was captured by several cameramen, as this is misleading. While the events of the day at the junction (occasional gunfire exchanges, rock throwing by palestinaisn, and play acting) were indeed captured by multiple camera crews, only abu rahma captured the al-dura incident. In fact, one of the elements of the "staged" theory is that despite the presence of multiple crews who were constantly filming - only abu rahma manged to catch this incident, despite it allegedly lasting 30-45 minutes. One other crew did film the al-duras crouching behind the barrel, but that same scene has multiple other people walking by them casually, with no indication of any gun-battle in progress. Canadian Monkey (talk) 18:24, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

I'm afraid you've misread the text. It didn't say that the shooting was captured, it said that the gun battle was captured - that includes the exchanges of gunfire on both sides. I've reworded the line to make it clear that the broadcast footage of the al-Durrahs came from Abu Rahma. As for your claims, what's your source? -- ChrisO (talk) 18:47, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

A gun battle was captured by other crews, but not one in which the al-Durrahs are involved. The way it was phrased before my change leads the reader to believe that the incident which is the topic of this article was captured by more than one crew - which is false. Only the F2 vidoe shows the al-durrahs allegedly being shot at. There are many sources which document this anomaly - multiple crews filming throughout the day, yet a 45 minute shooting incident is only captured by a lone photogarpher. One of them isthis"Much of the day’s events are filmed by the various (20 or so) television crews, but only Abu Rahma records what he claims to be Mohammed Al Dura’s death by Israeli bullets. (A Reuters clip apparently captures Jamal and Mohammed Al Dura filmed from a different angle.)", and others are available on Landes's web site. Canadian Monkey (talk) 19:02, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

Real sources, please, not CAMERA or Landes. The source I'm citing - a reliable mainstream newspaper, not a personal website or lobbying group - says definitively it's the same battle . -- ChrisO (talk) 19:06, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

I don't see you providing any source for that claim - the only reference for that section is Abu rahma statement, and he was found, I remind you, to be an unrelaible witness by the French court. As to my sources, there's nothign wrong with CAMERA as a source for this claim, nor with Landes. Canadian Monkey (talk) 19:12, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

I've provided the source in the article. CAMERA is not a reliable source, nor is Landes - as I've pointed out, lobbying groups are not considered reliable sources, nor are individuals' personal websites. Misplaced Pages:Verifiability specifically precludes us from using such questionable sources. You're welcome to try to argue your case at the reliable sources noticeboard, though I believe CAMERA has been discussed before and found wanting. -- ChrisO (talk) 19:24, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

Chris, can you say why CAMERA would not be regarded as a reliable source under WP:V? As for Landes, he does count as one, because he's become a specialist in this area; he's an academic with what he describes as a relevant background (propaganda, as I recall); and he's been acknowledged as a legitimate commentator by other reliable sources, including France 2 — I believe they agreed several years ago to give him access to the raw footage for his research.

The article should not give the impression that the shooting was filmed by anyone other than the France 2 cameraman. That he filmed it alone is, indeed, what a lot of the controversy stems from. SlimVirgin 19:23, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

I see you have now added a source, but what that source says is that the "other" video" is "splicing together footage shot on the day by France 2 and other Western agencies". so we have no way of knowing what parts of this "spliced" and heavily edited anonymous video were actually shot by sources other than F2. As you say - let's have some real sources, please. You may want to have a look at this: "Through his diligent compilation work, Shahaf located some previously unknown taped material that depicts the scene of Muhammad Al-Dura and his father from additional angles. There is a scene in which a television photographer may be seen kneeling right next to the child and his father. Thus, there had to be an additional photographer there as well, the one who filmed the first photographer. There is also a picture of youths running and passing by a barrel of cement in order to get away from the place. Al-Dura and his son stay behind the barrel and do not join the people who, it seems, are getting themselves away from a dangerous area." Canadian Monkey (talk) 19:29, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

Shahaf is pretty clearly a crank, so I'm not inclined to put any weight on his claims. But the gist of his claim is already stated in the article from Abu Rahma himself: "His attention was drawn to the child by Shams Oudeh, a Reuters photographer who was sitting beside Muhammad al-Durrah and his father. The three of them were sheltering behind a concrete block." I'm not sure about the usefulness of the JCPA source, since (a) it's obviously an opinion piece and (b) it's just a retelling of Shahaf's claims. -- ChrisO (talk) 19:59, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

Your opinion of Shahaf is mildly interesting, but entirely irrelvent. The source is Amnon Lord, a well known and highly respected Israeli journalist, published by the JCPA, which is a perfectly valid WP:RS. Canadian Monkey (talk) 22:07, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

The 'gist' of the claim made by the supportes of the 'staged' theory is not that there was another photographer nearby, but rather that there are many people filmed walking or running by the barrel, without any apparent need to take cover the way the Al-Durrahs were (have you asked yourself, for example, where is footage of the event by Shams Oudeh? ) Consider also this impeccable source: "Despite the number of cameras that were running that day, Mohammed and Jamal al-Dura appear in the footage of only one cameraman—Talal Abu-Rahma, a Palestinian working for France 2." . As I said, numerous sources have commented on this apparent anomaly, and we should not be brushing it aside with a statement that misleads readers into thinking the controversial incident (as opposed to the general events of the day, including exchanges of fire) had been caught by anyone other than Rahma. Canadian Monkey (talk) 22:26, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

Fallows appears to be factually incorrect. The Age article I cited states that the al-Durrahs are visible, albeit blurrily, in the long-shot footage taken by other cameramen at the scene. To be fair, he wrote that piece years before The Age did theirs, so he may not have been aware of the other footage. It certainly appears to be accurate to say that the actual shooting was only captured by Abu Rahma, but the general scene including the al-Durrahs is reliably reported to have been recorded by other cameramen at the scene. I'm not going to speculate about Shams Oudeh - neither of us know what happened to any pictures he took (or indeed if he took any). Much of the conspiracy theory depends on speculation and innuendo, but we're not going to write this article on that basis. I'd like to think Misplaced Pages has higher standards than that. -- ChrisO (talk) 22:39, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

I am not suggesting we write the article based on speculation. I brought up Oudeh because you had introduced the unsourced claim that Rahma was the 'closest to the incident' - apparently in an attempt to explain (in other words, speculate) on why he was the only one to capture the incident- but he clearly was not. Oudeh was closer, and yet did not film anything remotely like what Rahma did. We agree that the actual shooting was only captured by Abu Rahma, but we apparently disagree as to what 'the general scene including the al-Durrahs' which was captured on film by other photographers is. You seem to be under the impression (and have worded the disputed statement to suggest) that there is footage, other than the one shot by Rahma, showing the al-Durrahs hiding during a gun battle. I don't think that is the case. To be sure, there are shots of gun battles taking place at the junction, some even in locations that are close to the famous barrel. But as far as I can tell, there is no footage other than the 50+ seconds shot by Rahma that shows the al-Durrahs involved in any gun battle, so we shouldn't create that impression with the wording you have chosen. As to the Age source you cite, you are misrepresenting what it says. Again, the quote there is " "splicing together footage shot on the day by France 2 and other Western agencies" - in other words, a heavily edited video, by an anonymous editor, which combines both the Rahma footage and other footage - leaving us no way of knowing what it actually shows, and which parts were shot by which source. If that is what you are going by, we might add a footnote that says that according to the Age, there exists an edited video which splices together rahma's shots with other shots in which the al-Durrahs are blurrily seen, but not much more than that. Canadian Monkey (talk) 23:24, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

Let's recap what the video shows, according to our reliable sources. We know from the testimony of the eyewitnesses that the al-Durrahs and Abu Rahma were sheltering behind a concrete cylinder and minivan respectively, taking refuge from an ongoing gun battle. The Age describes the video as showing the three of them sheltering in those positions while the battle was raging: "There is a lot of automatic gunfire - from both the Israeli army base and Palestinian security men filmed as they shoot back from positions at either end of the wall against which the al-Duras are huddled." So according to The Age, the video does quite clearly depict the al-Durrahs and Abu Rahma in the crossfire of an armed clash. Since it shows Abu Rahma, it obviously can't have been filmed by him. We know from other testimony by Abu Rahma that he filmed some of the events before the shooting (stone-throwing etc) and The Age does describe seeing this in the video, but he also says that he stopped filming after the al-Durrahs were shot. He doesn't say why, but France 2 has said that he had a low battery. -- ChrisO (talk) 08:01, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

The passage you quote above doesn't say that the boy and his father are visible hiding from crossfire. Can you link to the source where France 2 talks about a low battery, please? I've not been able to find it. SlimVirgin 19:33, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

The passage I quoted clearly describes the al-Durrahs as being caught in a crossfire between the two sides, even if it doesn't use the word "crossfire". As for the battery, it's mentioned in the International Herald Tribute article of February 7, 2005: "The footage of the father and son under attack lasts several minutes, but does not clearly show the boy's death. There is a cut in the scene that France 2 executives attribute to the cameraman's efforts to preserve a low battery." -- ChrisO (talk) 20:18, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

The article mentions them and crossfire, but it doesn't say that anyone other than France 2 captured them and the crossfire on video. But I believe all the available footage is on Richard Landes' site, so we can simply look. Thanks for the IHT reference. SlimVirgin 20:26, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

I don't regard Landes' site as remotely reliable, so please don't "simply look" there - we have no idea whether his footage has been edited or even if it all comes from the same incident. He would certainly have every motive to distort it, given his political views and role in this controversy. I found another source which states that the footage described by The Age was shot by a Reuters cameraman (probably Shams Oudeh, the one named in the article - it's not clear, but it would be a logical assumption). But I think, from The Age's description of it, the footage does clearly show them in the crossfire. As I've said above, we know from the eyewitness testimony that they were sheltering from gunfire; The Age describes how the footage shows them sheltering while soldiers and gunmen "shoot back from positions at either end of the wall against which the al-Duras are huddled" (again, note the tense: "are huddled"; the huddling and shooting are simultaneous). -- ChrisO (talk) 20:44, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

Agian, no. What the Age article says of this edited video consisting of footage shot by Rahma and other sources which has been spliced together is that "In a couple of long shots Abu Rahma is visible, huddled in the dubious cover of a white van parked a few metres from the figures behind the barrel.", and in other shots "There is a lot of automatic gunfire — from the Israeli Army base and the Palestinian security men clearly filmed as they return fire from positions at either end of the wall against which the Duras are huddled.". In other words - in the shots that show both Rahma and the Al-Durrahs, there is no mention of gunfire, and in other shots, where there is gunfire, the al-durrahs are visible, but not Rahma, and they are presumably the footage shot by Rahma. As I wrote earleir, this unverifyiable, heavily edited tape by an anonymous editor may be worth mentioning in a footnote, as something claimed by the Age, but not more than that. Canadian Monkey (talk) 17:51, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

Sorry, you've just failed your basic English comprehension test... Re-read the sentence I highlighted: "they shoot back from positions at either end of the wall against which the al-Duras are huddled." Not "were huddled" or "will later be huddled", but "are huddled". In other words, the huddling and the shooting are simultaneous. -- ChrisO (talk) 18:31, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

Your incivility aside, this is non-responsive to what I wrote. I did not make a point of the timing (i.e - was there shooting when the al-Durrahs are visible) , but rather that when they are visible and there is shooting, Rahma is not visible - so it is likely he took those shots, as the anonymous video is a pliced version of his footage and other footage. Canadian Monkey (talk) 03:57, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

I believe that conclusion would be original research, as it seems to be based on your views ("it is likely that..."), rather than what reliable sources have said. I'm going by what The Age has reported. -- ChrisO (talk) 09:07, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

Please don't engage in idle speculation - it's a waste of time and effort. If you have something substantive to contribute, please do so. -- ChrisO (talk) 22:39, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

Sure thing, Chris. Idle speculation gone. We should all take your (very good) advice. Tundrabuggy (talk) 00:54, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

Karsenty was found guilty

See (in french): http://fr.wikisource.org/A-Dura/France-2/Karsenty:_depuis_l%27arr%C3%AAt_de_la_Cour_d%E2%80%99appel —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.65.133.234 (talk) 14:13, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

Some confusion here, I think? The judgment says that Karsenty was found guilty by a lower court. If you read down to the bottom it sets aside that court's verdict. -- ChrisO (talk) 20:46, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

59 seconds?

I've flagged the claim in the article that the footage was "edited down to 59 seconds" - I can't find a single reliable source that states this. Where does the figure come from? -- ChrisO (talk) 08:00, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

My understanding is that there is some question as to whether it was 55 or 59 seconds. This from the Jerusalem Post "France 2's original September 30, 2000, broadcast showed 55 seconds of edited footage from the Netzarim junction..." Tundrabuggy (talk) 16:04, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

Thanks, that's very helpful. The next question is do we know whether France 2 distributed more than this 55-second package to other broadcasters? -- ChrisO (talk) 19:53, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

They may have distributed some of what has been called the "playacting" going on, but it is clear that they did not distribute the rather important edited-out 10 seconds described as "peeking out from under his arm" by most, and "the death 'agonies'" by Enderlin et al, until forced to do so by the court some years later. Tundrabuggy (talk) 12:49, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

The shooting, again

The following quote is referenced to a Matthew Kalman in the Daily Mail:

According to the father, "Muhammad was hit in the knee by a bullet. I tried to defend him with my body, but another hit him in the back. I cried and shouted for help. The shooting continued even as Muhammad bled. Suddenly a bullet hit me in the shoulder, and it was followed by another and then a third. I stopped counting the bullets and could not tell what had happened to Muhammad. I regained consciousness in the ambulance and felt the body of my son. It was cold."

This citation is not verifiable as far as I can see in my research. Something as important as this testimony should have some verifiable source. Looks like the references are all screwed up at the moment. Tundrabuggy (talk) 17:24, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

What do you mean that it's "not verifiable"? It's certainly verifiable if you have access to a database of Daily Mail articles or, indeed, the original newspapers. -- ChrisO (talk) 19:32, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

Yeah! Tundrabuggy seem to have removed the link so we can't check it. // Liftarn (talk)

It's still there in the article - check out ref 24 in the footnotes. I added some more references further up in the article, which has broken Tundrabuggy's hyperlink in the paragraph above. -- ChrisO (talk) 20:06, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

I would think that something as inflammatory as that ought to be verified somewhere else. Who is the author and why can't one seem to find the quote anywhere else? Heaven knows there seems to be plenty of ink on this subject. Why can't we find another source that can be accessed? And Liftarn, I did not remove the link. Tundrabuggy (talk) 20:14, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

The author is this guy; he's a long-established British Middle East correspondent who was the Daily Mail's Jerusalem correspondent at the time of the shooting. As for "why one can't seem to find the quote anywhere else", I presume you're Googling for it and not finding it. That's not surprising - the Mail and other Associated Newspapers titles were latecomers to the online news publishing business. It wasn't until as late as 2003 that they started publishing their stories online, so Kalman's October 2000 report obviously wouldn't have had much circulation beyond the UK. But it's easily retrievable if you have access to professional news databases, which I do.

And by the way, what's "inflammatory" about this? It's nothing that isn't reported by several other sources. Kalman has the advantage of having actually gone to the scene and spoken to the family. -- ChrisO (talk) 20:40, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

The article is real, and verifiable to anyone with access to a good university database, or probably even just a library card and access to a local library website. I verified it within a few minutes via the latter method. It's a real article, published in The Daily Mail, which evidently picked it up off the "Europe Intelligence Wire". I didn't see a Kalman byline in my version, which was on NewsBank. It does have the feel of an "early report" to it, since it says, "For the first time last night, his father Jamal, swathed in bandages in hospital, told how a day out to find a new car ended in tragedy." The al-Durra portion is also a relatively small section of a longer article that was covering multiple such incidents in the latest round of Middle East fighting. So it might be worth couching it as an early report, but I'll leave that up to the editors here, and/or WP:RSN. --Elonka 21:15, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

Well, I don't know, maybe I was having a bad day, it didn't show up for me. Thanks for finding it and verifying. The whole quote doesn't even make much sense because he says the boy was shot in the back, and that he was cold. The ambulance driver seems to say that he was breathing when he got in the ambulance, and if he was shot in the back, then there was no way he could have been shot by the Israelis. I did find out about Kalman, who seems to have an excellent reputation. Tundrabuggy (talk) 03:58, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

I noticed from Googling his name that CAMERA has praised him, so that should be good enough for you. ;-) If you look further down in the article, you'll see that there's a statement that "doctors who examined the boy's body said that he had been shot from the front in the upper abdomen and the injury to his back that his father had seen was an exit wound". A correction for Elonka - the Europe Intelligence Wire is a news redistribution service, so the story was picked up by the EIW from the Daily Mail, not the other way round. -- ChrisO (talk) 08:30, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

It's already couched as an early report, since it's within a section entitled "The incident as initially reported". -- ChrisO (talk) 21:24, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

Gun battle(s)?

I noticed that Canadian Monkey had added a claim based on the proposition that "there were multiple gn battles" . I know of no contemporary source which suggests that. On the contrary, this BBC report - published a few hours after the incident, and just before the al-Durrah shooting had become a cause célèbre - describes a single gun battle lasting 20 minutes in which "one 12-year-old Palestinian boy" (clearly al-Durrah) was shot and killed. Every contemporary source I've found so far - including the Israeli statements - has described the episode as a single incident. -- ChrisO (talk) 09:04, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

Violation of edit restrictions on this page

Liftarn, this edit not only removed well sourced information (2 references are given), but is a clear violation of the 0RR restriction on this page. Please undo it, or you may be subject to editing restrictions. Canadian Monkey (talk) 14:21, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

He was right to remove your addition - not only was it not contemporary reporting (hint: the section is titled "The incident as originally reported"), but your text was ridiculously POV ("the clearly faked evacuation"?). In addition, your claim that "there were multiple gn battles" is original research and is not supported by any contemporary sources - please see and respond to my comments in the section above. -- ChrisO (talk) 14:44, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

Challenge on one of the reporters

In relation to the Reuters' film and what is on it, Ed O'Loughlin is referenced. The article currently reads: "Two figures dressed like the al-Durrahs can be seen from several angles, sheltering behind an obstruction, and Abu Rahma is visible taking cover behind a white van parked on the opposite side of the road. An ambulance driver and a Palestinian policeman are shown being killed as they attempt to reach the al-Durrahs. Soldiers in the Israeli army base and Palestinian gunmen are seen exchanging bursts of automatic gunfire from opposite ends of the wall against which the al-Durrahs are sheltering." The reference given is: O'Loughlin, "Battle rages over fateful footage". The Age, October 6, 2007 This reporter is considered by some to be highly biased. See How to spot a slanted journalist and My Israel Reporting Explained, february 22, 2008 Australian Jewish News --ED O'LOUGHLIN responds to critics of his reporting from Israel, chiefly Melbourne Ports MP Michael Danbyand Ed O’ Loughlin’s journalism: defending the indefensible - When responding to critics, it’s always a good idea to get your facts right Tzi Fleisher and more. So my point is, I don't think this is a good source used alone, and vote to strike anything that is backed up by his word alone. Is there Reuters film that is in the public domain that shows the ambulance driver and Palestinian policeman being killed? Is there film of the Israeli army base and PA gunmen exchanging gunfire? Or is there a reliable uncontroversial news report that has seen it and vouches for it? Tundrabuggy (talk) 14:50, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

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