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Unusual action by admin FCYTravis

The following discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Lots of heat and little light. —Kurykh 07:04, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

Admin FCYTravis has just deleted the article Historical pederastic couples, in spite of the fact that it just survived an AFd. I find this action unusual, to say the least, ands would like input from other admins and the community as a whole. One person's distaste for an article must not take precedent over a sourced article and lack of consensus, which was divided 60/40. Jeffpw (talk) 20:23, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

The AFD was closed with the specific admonition from the closer that Any inadequately sourced entries (especially those pertaining to the 20th century) should be summarily removed per WP:V and, as the case may be, per WP:BLP.

I made an attempt to comply with that admonition by stripping out those entries which were, in my opinion, inadequately sourced and speculative.

User:Jeffpw blindly reverted me.

I made a second attempt.

User:Jeffpw blindly reverted me, again.

It is obvious, by his own actions, that Jeffpw is not interested in complying with the terms of the AfD closure, either. So why should I agree to be bound by it?

The article in question was full of unsourced, poorly sourced and speculative arguments about purported sexual relationships between people. It does not belong on the encyclopedia in its current form. The above user has thwarted two attempts at ensuring that it complies with our content policies. If he does not want the article in a form which complies with policy, then we cannot have an article at all. FCYTravis (talk) 20:32, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

You didn't just remove (sourced) info) that might have conflicted with WP:BLP. You gutted the article, even though there were good faith efforts being made to source it all. This was out of process, and, in my mind, malicious and vindictive. Unfortunately, as you have deleted it, I can show no diffs to back up my assertions. So goes the power imbalance on Misplaced Pages. Jeffpw (talk) 20:36, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

You made no attempt to discuss, with me or on the article talk page, the sections which were being removed. You simply blindly reverted me twice. You could have copied the removed sections to the article talk page and questioned why I removed them - and I would be happy to explain. FCYTravis (talk) 20:37, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

And you could have questioned on the talk page the issues which concerned you. The article had a "rescue' tag on it, and was being worked on by multiple editors. your offer of restoring it (on my talk page) if I agree to your reversions is nothing less than extoption. Jeffpw (talk)

Excuse me. Did you not read the AfD closure? It says quite clearly, Any inadequately sourced entries (especially those pertaining to the 20th century) should be summarily removed per WP:V and, as the case may be, per WP:BLP. I made an attempt at doing that. You blindly reverted, in violation of the AfD closer's admonition. FCYTravis (talk) 20:45, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

I support the actions by FCYTravis, we should not have unsourced or poorly sourced articles which deal with such sensitive and delicate information, regardless of whether the subjects are living or deceased. It shocks and amazes me how frequently people fail to grasp this concept. Its a matter of common decency. JBsupreme (talk) 20:34, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

• How can we provide proper sources for material that's been deleted? I see a lot wasn't sourced as we would normally expect to see it, but giving no chance to fix the sources seems a touch WP:POINTy to me. I see no need to delete the article in toto until a reasonable chance has been given to address those issues. --Rodhullandemu 20:41, 19 July 2008 (UTC)
  • As the AfD closer said, Any inadequately sourced entries (especially those pertaining to the 20th century) should be summarily removed per WP:V and, as the case may be, per WP:BLP. I made an attempt to do that. I was blindly reverted, twice. I have made an offer to the user to undelete should he agree to not blindly revert. He has, as yet, not answered. FCYTravis (talk) 20:43, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

and where is the policy that states that a closing admin can bind the hands of editors in this fashion? --Rodhullandemu 20:47, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

Where is the policy that says unsourced/poorly sourced/flat-out speculative material about people's sexual activities belongs on the encyclopedia? FCYTravis (talk) 20:53, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

First impression is that deleting the article flat within a couple of hours after this AFD closed as a no-consensus is a pretty bad idea. We don't delete articles for maintenance now, do we? Because that's essentially what is being stated here. Tony Fox (arf!) 20:39, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

I'm especially concerned, as a second thought, that FCYTravis appears to have used his admin tools when involved in a dispute over the article, as he notes himself above. Tony Fox (arf!) 20:42, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

The AfD was closed under the clear condition that speculative and poorly sourced material be summarily removed. I attempted to do so. I was blindly reverted, twice. If the above user is actively thwarting my efforts to make the article content comply with the AfD closure, then the AfD closure is invalid. FCYTravis (talk) 20:47, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

I have had my own share of disputes with Travis, he tends to be particularly arbitrary and inflexible (in my opinion) over BLP issues. (And I though I was hardcore in that area.) But he will often relent if you produce evidence to back up your position. I recommend talking to him. Kelly 20:40, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

This is outrageous behaviour. Imagine if any admin who believed an article was not compliant with policy deleted it until all those who disagreed with him agreed to give way. This a recipe for chaos on the wiki - administrators do not have any special editorial authority. This is clearly not a WP:BLP. I have no opinion on the merits of the article, but if FCYTravis believes the AfD was wrongly closed, WP:DRV is the place to go. Deleting an articles hours after it survived a deletion discussion where he argued for it's deletion is a completely inappropriate use of admin tools. It would be poor conduct were he completely uninvolved - given his involvement in the deletion discussion, it is unacceptable. I realise he strongly believes this article to be problematic and respect that, but this is exactly why he should not be making admin decisions involving it. WJBscribe (talk) 20:47, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

Excuse me. The AfD closure was made with the specific admonition that unsourced/poorly sourced and speculative material be summarily removed. I made two attempts at doing so, and was blindly reverted each time. What tool should I use to enforce the idea that unsourced/poorly sourced and speculative material about people's sexual activities does not belong on the encyclopedia? FCYTravis (talk) 20:51, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

This admonition is no more than that. There is no policy to enforce its application or not. It's no higher than guidance, if I understand deletion policy correctly, and it's probably ultra vires the closing admin anyway. --Rodhullandemu 20:57, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

Discussion, consensus? I believe that is how things are done. If you thought Jeff's conduct was disruptive you could have asked an uninvolved admin to look into the matter and take appropriate action. But deleting the article was not a legitimate response to the problem. WJBscribe (talk) 20:53, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

We don't wait for "uninvolved" people when we're talking about an article that called Bernard Montgomery a pederast, for God's sake. FCYTravis (talk) 20:55, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

He has been dead for 30 years so this is hardly a WP:BLP situation. The fact that this distresses you is all the more reason why you should not be taking admin actions in relation to this matter. You really need to restore the article and engage in dialogue with other editors to work towards a version that everyone agrees complies Misplaced Pages policies. WJBscribe (talk) 20:58, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

The offer has been made and stands - I will agree to undelete if editors will agree not to blindly revert to a version full of unsourced and speculative material. FCYTravis (talk) 21:00, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

(unindent) Your offer to undelete to a version which satisfies you is nothing less than extortion and an abuse of your admin privileges. I find your behavior appalling, considering your responsibilities here. Jeffpw (talk) 21:05, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

If you are unable to use your admin tools in an appropriate manner, you need to reconsider continuing to have them. Nothing justifies deleting an article because others object to your preferred version. WJBscribe (talk) 21:04, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

You don't get to impose conditions, just undelete and admit you were wrong. RMHED (talk) 21:02, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

No, I don't think I'm going to undelete an article which contains unsourced/poorly sourced/speculative material as historical fact. FCYTravis (talk) 21:04, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

That's not a deal. You can't seek sources for absent material. No. --Rodhullandemu 21:03, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

Sure you can - it's called the article talk page. The material can be discussed on the article talk page. I have no objection to that. FCYTravis (talk) 21:04, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

This is quite disconcerting. I participated in this AfD discussion, as did FCYTravis. Another admin closed it, and it appears FCYTravis did not like the decision. Why participate in the discussion in the first place, or hold a discussion at all if this is the outcome? I freely admit the article has issues, but so does every article that is less than FA (and even some of those). In fact, I gave suggestions on the talk page of the article to assist the main editor who has added the majority of information to the article, Haiduc, about how to avoid these issues in the future. I offered to assist him in improving the article clarity and structure. I wish I could show them to you, but you know...the page was deleted. --Moni3 (talk) 20:54, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

I supported deletion in the recently-closed discussion (I think that categorizing someone as a "pederast" is inescapably POV), but I agree this unapproved deletion was out of line. If an admin is simply frustrated by the obstructionist behavior of a particular editor, he has many tools for dealing with that editor -- summary deletion of the article they are both trying to edit is a clear abuse of privilege.

Dybryd (talk) 20:55, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

The offer was made on the user's talk page quite awhile ago: if he agrees not to blindly revert to a version that includes a multitude of unsourced, poorly sourced and speculative alleged "relationships," I will undelete it. I have had no response. I will not undelete an article that purports to include as historical fact that a number of people were "pederasts" when there is no such historical and biographical consensus. FCYTravis (talk) 21:01, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

You are required to abide by editorial consensus on an article just like anybody else. I think you need to agree to restore the article unconditionally and to taking part in civil discourse with other contributors to it. WJBscribe (talk) 21:04, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

"Quite a while ago"? I posted it at 2.47 and it's 5.04 right now. In the interim I was writing about geologic formations in southern Florida. Now those were formed "quite a while ago". Think you can give a guy a chance to read it on a Saturday? He could be in a different time zone. Gracious. --Moni3 (talk) 21:09, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

I am genuinely shocked that an admin would use deletion/undeletion as a bargaining chip in a content dispute. Dybryd (talk) 21:05, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

I urge FCYTravis to undelete the article. Whether intended as such or not, overriding what was a carefully thought through closure of an AfD is not acceptable. The right response to inappropriate reverts does not include unilateral deletion of the article; instead the matter should be taken up with the user who reverted you, and if necessary, wider within the community. Sam Blacketer (talk) 21:05, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

Ugh. Support undeletion and listing at WP:DRV. On closer examination, Travis' action was wrong. Kelly 21:06, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

• Comment. The talk page is still there. Unclear why the article as it was when the AfD was closed wouldn't be restored. If there are particular items someone thinks needs to be more fully sourced then there are numerous and less pointy ways to make ones concerns known. Using <!--- these handy mark-ups to temporarily hide content until sourced ---> adding {{fact}} tags and (shock!) actually discussing the issue would all seem to be more considerate and cooperative behavior befit of this project. If any other (non-admin) user was to delete the content as such they would more than likely be on vacation at this point. Banjeboi 21:07, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

I am beyond words that people are defending an article which contains random speculation and innuendo in the guise of historical fact. Do what the hell you want. FCYTravis (talk) 21:08, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

Sorry Travis, as others have said, you were out of order. What you are taling about is an opinion of what is sourceable and correct, and what is not, and edit/revert thereof. In any terms, that is called an editing dispute, and you abused your admin priveleges to "win" on the issue by deleting the article, because you felt you were right, thus someone (all) else must be wrong. You now quote a selective part of the article... part that was at issue... in defence of your action, but of course, as the article is deleted and nobody can see what was said, nor the nature of other edits, nor indeed information that wasn't removed (which by nature of your not removing it was thus OK to remain... the AfD admonishment wasn't a binding order anyway). As a result, nobody can speak up in favour of the articles content or the ability to put the article straight (over time... a matter of hours is not reasonable), and yet you use article content in your defence. That's highly objectionable. I personally would go as far as to say a disgraceful action... there was no support in policy for the way in which you deleted that article, or indeed, for it to be summarily deleted like that at all.

The article isn't being defended... the article is deleted so how can it possibly be defended. What's being defended is due process and policy on wikipedia, which you have rather inappropriately thrown completely out of the window because of your own personal edit conflict and opinion. What is being said is not that the article was fantastic, but that it had survived a considered discussion, thus was OK by the community (with an admonishment indicating the need for work), and thus your subsequent actions were innapropriate on a number of levels, especially given your involvement in editing the article prior to deletion.Crimsone (talk) 21:11, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

There was a simple and obvious solution to this; Travis could have protected the article in the version he considered to be BLP-compliant and then made a note here at ANI. Deleting wholesale was at best overkill. JoshuaZ (talk) 21:14, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

I would like to add the note that we are talking as if consensus had been to keep the article -- in fact, the admin found that there was no consensus and preserved the article by default as a matter of policy. Travis has acted inappropriately, that's clear. But he hasn't acted in opposition to editorial consensus, because there wasn't one.

Dybryd (talk) 21:17, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

How does one get sysoped with such blatant disregard for, or ignorance of, our most basic standards of administrator conduct? You just edit warred with an editor and then used your admin tools to delete the article you were warring over in gross violation of the trust that we place in administrators. It's outrageous. Just because you happen to have admin tools, you do not get to take your ball and go home. Please undo your obvious mistake as many others here have already asked you to. HiDrNick! 21:18, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

I'm confused. From looking at the diffs for the deleted article, I see that much of the material FCYTravis deleted was referenced. I see a discussion on the article's talk page about some references but not all of these. I also see discussion started on the talk page about what to do following the AfD discussion to fix the article. Finally, FCYTravis, I see no edits by you to that talk page. Did someone evaluate the references for the disputed entries? What about the material that wasn't deleted by FCYTravis -- why wasn't that retained? Why wasn't this article first discussed at DRV if it should have been deleted?

I have left a courtesy note for the closing admin, Sandstein, informing him of this discussion. --A. B. 21:18, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

Thank you. This is just to clarify that I don't understand my "admonition" to observe WP:V and WP:BLP by deleting noncompliant material (as cited variously above) to have any particular binding force above and beyond that of the policies themselves. The wholesale deletion of the article by FCYTravis and then its protection in his preferred version cannot be supported by these policies, in my opinion, and amounts to a serious misuse of the administrator tools. Protection may be used to enforce WP:BLP compliance in certain circumstances, but even if this were such a case, it should certainly not be done by an administrator involved in the content dispute at issue.  Sandstein  22:44, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

Coming to this late, but having being invloved early.... Travis unilaterally deleted an article and then advised he would restore should Jeffpw refrain from editing. There is no policy or guideline at all for this. Travis should ask for his bit to be removed on meta. Rarely do I get this angry, but this a shameful abuse of the admin buttons, and would be best dealt with simply and effectively. Resign your bit off your own back Travis, and run RFA if you want it back. Pedro :  Chat  21:19, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

• Travis took this action due to the fact that the article violated at least three important policies: WP:BLP, WP:NOR and WP:NPOV. Misplaced Pages appears to be blazing the trail in a new field of documenting "pederastic couples" (a term which inherently OR, as I think it was Geogre pointed out very well in one of the numerous related AfDs). It is almost as if someone were trying to portray pederasty as somehow mainstream, or desirable, but that would be inappropriate pro-paedophile activism,. so I'm sure nobody would dream of that. Guy (Help!) 21:21, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

No need to drag in irrelevant considerations, even by the side door. Pederasty and pedophilia are quite different and conflating the two is unhelpful. Can we stick to the point please. --Rodhullandemu 21:25, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

Travis has now gone on wikibreak "until the community wises up." And Guy, I and many of the other editors here don't have any dog in the pro-pedophile activism fight, so let's not lump all of the editors commenting here about Travis' inappropriate actions into the same pile, okay? Tony Fox (arf!) 21:24, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

Deleted his talk and can't be bothered to communicate. I'm sure he's watching this however. Fall on your sword Travis. Go to meta and ask for removal of your bit. You're not fit to be an administrator here I'm afraid. Pedro :  Chat  21:29, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

Pedro, that is a distinctly unhelpful contribution. Sam Blacketer (talk) 21:30, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

Sorry Sam, but I'd argue that Travis removing the bit "sans-drama" would be a positive for the whole community, given the actions tonight, and therefore my urge for him to do it is very helpful actually. Pedro :  Chat  21:41, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

I think it's perfectly valid. Throwing the baby out with the bathwater in such a way is conduct unbecoming of one trusted with "the tools". The comment on his userpage is his business and perfectly reasonable. Deleting his talk page too however looks to me like more of a tantrum than anything though. Crimsone (talk) 21:32, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

Admins make mistakes. Admins are human. A single bad deletion is not a reason to desysop. JoshuaZ (talk) 21:34, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

They do, and they are, and it's not. However, A bad deletion such as this, with the conduct of the admin in question that followed, especially in light of being given the reasons why it was a bad deletion clearly and numerous times, as well as restoring the article to his prefered version, and edit protecting it, is at least significant cause for concern. Crimsone (talk) 21:39, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

FCYTravis has acted and is acting like a sulky child who couldn't get their own way. RMHED (talk) 21:41, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

Bullhonkus. Wherever there's one admin action in someone's log that stinks, there's always more sure to follow. Just yesterday FCYTravis got into an edit war on Ashley Alexandra Dupré with some IPs over Ms. Dupré's occupation, and semiprotected the page. I'm sure there's plenty more where that came from. HiDrNick! 21:47, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

And what is to be done with Travis when he returns from his "wikibreak"? Is he to be admonished for his rash actions? Will his admin actions be monitored? Or will he be alllowed to continue this admin style unchecked? These questions concern me, and I would hope somebody can come up with an answer. Jeffpw (talk) 08:12, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

While I agree that one mistake is not worrisome, the refusal to admit that the action was, in fact, an error in judgment is much more troubling. From what I can tell, FCYTravis has refused to acknowledge that there was anything at all improper with his actions. That's just unacceptable, to me. -Chunky Rice (talk) 19:08, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

Now protected by FCYTravis in his preferred version

I see that Travis has restored the article to a gutted version that ::I see that Travis has restored the article to a gutted version that deleted much sourced material regarding pre-modern Asia and the 15\th and 16th centuries. And then protected it. This is clearly another abuse of his admin tools. This is not resolved by a longshot. Jeffpw (talk) 21:31, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

Agreed. Request immediate unprotection from any sane admin. HiDrNick! 21:32, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

No. Now you discuss things on the talk page and see what other editors thing and what is or is not a BLP problem. JoshuaZ (talk) 21:39, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

That's disingenuous and absurd, Joshua. Pre-modern Asia and 15th and 16th century individuals clearly do not fall under BLP. Stop wiki-lawyering. Jeffpw (talk) 21:42, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

So if that's the case, put the material explicitly on the talk page that you want on and we'll confirm that it is only about those time periods. Once there is a serious BLP issue it is best to procede slowly. JoshuaZ (talk) 21:45, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

The closing statement referred both to WP:BLP and WP:V; verifiability applies across the ages. Sam Blacketer (talk) 21:44, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

Ands that's exactly the point: Travis removed SOURCED material from pre-Asia and the 15th and 16th centuries (see my diff above). If the BLP violations were so serious, they should have been taken up at theBPL discussion page, or addressed immediately in the AFD. Jeffpw (talk) 21:48, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

Agree with protected, discuss it on the talk page. If you have consensus and policy backed edits to make use the editprotect tag for now. Beam 21:45, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

Sorry Jeffpw, but agree this needs to stay protected just for a while (multi multi ec). Pedro :  Chat  21:47, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

Hmmm. I disagree quite strongly. WP:BLP does not apply to the information in the article about ancient Asia and the Middle East because quite simply, those people are not living. To be fair, all articles that have no sources then should be protected and any improvements should be approved by an admin. It was my point in the RfD that the "ick" factor of this article compels editors to fail spectacularly at being creative in finding solutions to the article's problems. Treating the uncited claims in this article by locking it is as absurd as my suggestion to lock all articles that lack sufficient citations. --Moni3 (talk) 21:52, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

I agree that BLP doesn't directly require this, but discussing the individual sections and readding them after discussion will minimize drama. This is a very controversial topic and it is best to proceed slowly. JoshuaZ (talk) 21:54, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

Exactly. As a result of this thread the article is likely to become more high profile. A short protection should help to work out editing issues (one hopes!) and minimise any more drama. Pedro :  Chat  21:58, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

I don't see that it would. Indeed, this very discussion demonstrates that it isn't minimising drama. In fact, it's causing it. What drama was there prior to the restoration? I mean beside's Travis's poor actions? Prior to this lot, it was just a case of improving an article, as with any other article fresh out of AfD Crimsone (talk) 21:59, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

The article was being worked on by many editors to improve it, and the sections Travis gutted wholely had sources. For an admin to lock his preferred version without any arguments to back up the removal of sourced material is egregious behavior, to sayu the least. I ask that an impartial admin take a look at the diffs, remove any blatant BLP violations, and restore the rest of the article. To do anything less amounts to gross abuse of admin privilege and censorship based on personal considerations. I am shocked that this has occurred at all, and also shocked at the waffling I see on the part of many admins in this discussion. All I see is appeasement of FCY's ego, and trying to let him save face when he fell so badly on it.Jeffpw (talk) 22:07, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

Here is the content that FCYTravis objected to. I know we're big believers in protecting the wrong version and all but as an involved admin FCYTravis should hopefully see that allowing another admin to do the protecting and doing so on the version that have survived AfD would at least seem a bit less problematic. As I, and Haiduc, stated in the AfD, sources were on the article but because the items weren't individually sourced, as is common in older articles, those who wished to delete assumed no sourcing existed. Although undeleting the article was the right first step, let's now complete the restoration so those interested in getting the sourcing documented on each item can do so. Banjeboi 22:10, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

Also, i count about 16 sources deleted with that content. Banjeboi 22:13, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

I believe this article should be unprotected. Let's pretend Travis didn't delete the article out of process, then undelete and protect to his version (three actions, by the way, of which two are clearly bad ideas). Had he gone to WP:RFPP and requested protection, it would have been outright declined. Clearly, no protection is warranted in this case. Sure, the dispute should be discussed on the talk page, but there are many disputes that should be discussed on the talk page that don't get the added push of protection (especially from someone involved in the dispute itself). FCY's action shouldn't get preferential treatment simply because it has been done already (especially since it was done improperly). -- tariqabjotu 22:14, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

Who is to determine what consists of a sufficient citation and reliable sourcing if it not its editors? I must suggest then, since I am clearly unable to participate in the editing of the article, it should be an admin with more content experience than I have. Please find an admin with more than 9 FAs to do the job. I do not trust an admin with primarily non-content related experience to be able to ascertain what should be done any more than the admins who are protecting this article trust me to determine what content should be in the article. --Moni3 (talk) 22:19, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

• This is a really odd definition of "sourced". Try goodling on "pederastic couple" - I get a whopping 57 unique hits. Misplaced Pages is not supposed ot blaze a trail, and that is very much what seem to be happening here. Guy (Help!) 22:50, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

  You know as well as anyone that the number of google hits for a given phrase is not the measure of the legitimacy of an article, nor is it the measure of the verifiability or suitability of given sources within it. A google search for "pederastic relationship" has a hit count of 3,270 if we really must have numbers exchanged though... and no, as with another that felt the need to say so, I don't support abusive and dangerous philias, especially involving children, and it would be useful not to bring in issues not significantly related to the issue being spoken of. Crimsone (talk) 22:58, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

• (copied from article Historical pederastic couples talk page):I wrote an article titled Indigenous people of the Everglades region. That has a single entry on Google that matches the words in the title, here on Misplaced Pages. Is our creativity and capacity for language that limited? If the major objection is the title, then let's come up with a different title. --Moni3 (talk) 23:04, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

I'm in favor of protection for a while, especially if it brings more eyes on this terribly troublesome article (which, in my opinion, should have been deleted at AFD, but that's a separate issue.) My claim all along has been not that this article contains problematic material, but that since collecting the list under this named topic itself is original research and synthesis, it must contain problematic material. The defense against this was "Oh, well, we can just remove the offending material." The blind reverting that Travis' attempts to fix the article met with, I think, give the lie to this claim. I myself wouldn't have protected the article given that I was involved in the deletion discussion, but the outcome is, in my opinion, better for the encyclopedia. Nandesuka (talk) 00:27, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

• (ec)Well so much for "the encyclopedia that anyone can edit". As soon as I joined this outfit, I realised that that would cause problems, and it sure does. However, in the current context, the Afd had no consensus for deletion, and per deletion policy, the default is not to delete. It's complicated by the closing admin giving advice as to the future conduct of the article which strictly I don't think is enforceable. That's not what an Afd is meant to do. However, that advice seems to have been taken literally and as carte blanche. The deletion guidelines should make it quite clear that closing admins should not engage in content-based analysis. It's regrettable that Travis took this as licence to gut the article, even to the extent of removing sourced, if not beautifully-sourced, material; it's difficult not to see an agenda here, because I've never seen this kind of behaviour before. Even WP:TRIVIA suggests moving material to the talk page of an article for discussion; I see nothing in any policy to suggest unilateral deletion of an article merely because parts of it may be unsourced. WP:BLP is largely a smokescreen here, since very much of the deleted material, even before the total deletion, was not relevant. WP:V is much more to the point. Some material was unsourced directly. Some was poorly sourced. But it could have been fixed or deleted as appropriate. There is no need to continue protection of the article, because while it's fully protected, you rely on {{editprotected}} and thus on an admin agreeing that your edit satisfies policy. Having seen this evening's shenanigans, I'm no long sure that I even trust myself to make on objective decision on that. However, I may have a different view tomorrow. --Rodhullandemu 00:54, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

Deletion of User talk:FCYTravis

I see Travis has deleted his user talk page - under what circumstances are admins allowed to do this? Kelly 00:43, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

Allowed? When they feel like it. Just like any other user. --CBD 00:46, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

Blanking is different from deleting. I'm not aware of deleting being accepted outside of right to vanish cases. -Chunky Rice (talk) 00:51, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

Is there a consensus to undelete, and then courtesy blank? The people who might need to see some old posts can get around it easily enough, but this is (another) out of process action by this account. I would hate there to be a wheelwar and a desysop RfAR, so I should think we need to do this mindful of the consequences. For what its worth, I think that there are no special circumstances and the content should be undeleted and then blanked. LessHeard vanU (talk) 01:23, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

Exactly. As far as I can tell, the deletion of the user talk page was done completely outside the deletion policy. There was no AfD, no speedy tag (and no CSD criterion would apply here anyway), so the page needs to be undeleted and the content restored. Courtesy blanking it afterwards is fine, but people should be able to look at the history log. Nsk92 (talk) 01:44, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

I guess I should say, short of WP:RTV this shouldn't have happened. Gwen Gale (talk) 01:46, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

I'd like to propose that everyone have a nice cup of WP:TEA and re-cage the hounds. Yes, using the delete button to delete one's own talk page generally isn't "allowed by the deletion policy", but in the present case I don't see any pressing harm being done, and it seems to me that building a federal case over this is going to escalate tempers rather than calm things down. In the absence of some urgent need to see his talk page, this doesn't have to get resolved today. Nandesuka (talk) 01:50, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

It's been done recently by another admin, who also deleted his user page. I'm only one editor, but I don't know that it's a big deal. (I see there's more above about unusual activity by the editor in question; I am not making any comment on that as I haven't read through it. I am commenting only on the page deletion.)  Frank  |  talk  01:54, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

I have just had a cup of tea, but it did not change my opinion in the matter. In fact, in view of Frank's comment, I see a very good reason to undelete the talk page now. Allowing such an obvious violation of the process to stand would set a really bad precedent and send the wrong message to others who might be enclined to do something similar in the future. This is especially the case since, as you say, there was another recent example of a similar action. We do not want to set a trend of admins deleting their talk pages when they feel like it. Nsk92 (talk) 02:00, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

When there's no good reason to do something other than "to set an example" is the best possible time to take a deep breath and not take any hasty action. There is absolutely no emergency here, and it would behoove us to take steps to avoid drama, rather than to create it. Nandesuka (talk) 02:07, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

It is not a matter of emergency but of setting and reinforcing a really bad precedent. When there is a clear violation of deletion policy, such as this one was, it should not be allowed to stand, not because there is an emergency but as a matter of principle, in order not to encourage others to do the same. Nsk92 (talk) 02:12, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

Huh? What drama? Kelly 02:08, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

I agree - this especially should not be done by admins with problematic conduct. I'm not upset about it or anything, but we don't delete these pages unless users want to vanish. If Travis would like to vanish, he should probably turn in his tools on the way out - he can get them back if/when he returns. Kelly 02:06, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

Travis has been an admin in good standing for at least 3 years, has never been blocked for anything, and to the best of my knowledge is a valued and respected contributor. I don't see any reason here to do anything other than sleep on the issue for a while. Nandesuka (talk) 02:13, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

He can get them back if/when he returns. ← I believe bureaucrats would reject such a request, for better or worse, citing the "under a cloud" doctrine. — CharlotteWebb 21:21, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

• This is not by any means the first time FCYTravis has used the admin tools questionably. For a long time, FCYTravis kept his talk page permanently semi-protected, and kept hundreds of edits in its history deleted. Following a couple of discussions on this noticeboard, FCYTravis was required to restore the history and remove protection. Just days later, FCYTravis again indefinitely semiprotected his talk page against policy and consensus (and it has remained semi-protected since February). It may be time for FCYTravis to step down. - auburnpilot talk 02:13, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

Agree with CBD. It's not against any policy or rule to delete your own talk page. To revert his deletion seems like a personal move instead of a move to benefit the project or a move to fix a "wrong" against policy. Just let it be, imho. Beam 02:16, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

Er, excuse me? Whatever do you mean, "It's not against any policy or rule to delete your own talk page"? The deletion policy is very specific on how a deletion process can occur: either through a prod, a CSD tag or through an AfD debate. None of these happened here, and the only one which might allow for a quick deletion, namely CSD, is not applicable here. Nsk92 (talk) 02:20, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

You're excused. The talkpage is not a normal article. Beam 02:36, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

Well, actually, given some problems I've seen in the past, I'm thinking that a Request for Comment might be a good idea, so when Travis returns he can see how the community feels. However, that's pretty hard to judge, or to present any evidence of trying to resolve the problems, when the user talk page has been deleted. Regards - Kelly 02:19, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

Reading the above I wondered to myself, 'when was WP:CSD#U1 repealed?'. So I checked... and it hasn't been. So I wondered, 'when did the user talk page stop being a user page?'. So I checked... and it hasn't either. So... any user can request deletion of their user talk page at any time and it is customarily granted as a U1 speedy deletion except for "rare cases" where it is necessary to maintain the page, usually for evidentiary purposes. Or at least that's what the policies actually say... and a practice I've seen carried out in the past. An admin deleting a CSD page without first inserting the tag isn't at all unusual either. --CBD 04:27, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

That is not an accurate summary of our policy regarding user pages. See Misplaced Pages:User page, which states "As a matter of practice user talk pages are generally not deleted, barring legal threats or other grievous violations that have to be removed for legal reasons; however, exceptions to this can be and are made on occasion for good reason (see right to vanish)". In other words, it says the opposite of what you claim. Taking a Wikibreak is not a "good reason". - auburnpilot talk 14:29, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

Perhaps I should post a proposed change to that at WP:USER, as there seems to be consensus here that people may delete their talk pages. Another recent example I can think of is Spartaz (talk · contribs), who also deleted his user talk page but is still editing. Kelly 01:05, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

I'm not aware of any such consensus. Deleting user pages in which the user was the sole editor is diffent from deleting a talk page in which the contributions usually come from other users. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 18:56, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

Nor have I seen any consensus for this. Waiting to see what FCYTravis will do is one thing, changing the policy is very much something else. Gwen Gale (talk) 19:06, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

FCYTravis deleting his talk page isn't anything new, I had to have a talk with him before about his problematic deletions of the page, which he finally did undelete. I haven't checked the history, the primary reason he did that was because of trolls commenting there, which if those revisions are the ones he is deleting, I wouldn't care, but prior experience with him was that he was deleting good intentioned revisions, and unless he is leaving Misplaced Pages, that shouldn't be tolerated. — Moe ε 05:35, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

Calm

(ec)I have only just stepped into this mess. Noone is blocked - so can we slow down, get a hold of our tempers and sort this out in a rational manner. I understand people are upset by these actions, but nothing is gained by screaming at each other. Viridae 02:17, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

Granted I've only been reading this discussion for the last 10-15 mintues, I must say it seems like a fairly calm discussion at this point. I think everyone has already moved beyond the initial shock/bewilderment of FCYTravis's action, and are now discussing how to move forward. - auburnpilot talk 02:23, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

Agreed, I don't see anyone screaming at each other. Just trying to figure out the best way to resolve this. Kelly 02:24, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

Exactly. I have not seen anyone screaming at each other here (and hopefully we can avoid it). Nsk92 (talk) 02:26, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

What are you reading Viridae? This conversation is actually very civil and especially when one looks at the recent convos at this page. Shoot, this is like a party compared to other "discussions" of late. I'm pretty happy with the civility and levelheadedness displayed towards each other here~ Beam 02:34, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

Agreed, I haven't seen anyone screaming either. Anyway here's the policy. Gwen Gale (talk) 02:35, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

This is exactly wht I'm talking about (screaming wasn't the best choice of words) there is no paticular hurry to get his talk page back, against policy or not FYC is obviously stressed at this point - so slapping him with a "you shouldn't have deleted your talk page because of XYZ is not helping things resolve" Viridae 02:38, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

I didn't say it should be undeleted, I said, "Here's the policy." Gwen Gale (talk) 02:40, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

Well, as I said above, I think an RfC would be a good idea, but that is pretty much impossible with the talk page deleted. (I'm uninvolved in whatever disputes are going on here, by the way - I've had differences with Travis before, but we have always been able to work it out amicably.) Kelly 02:41, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

I'd wait to hear what his reason was. Gwen Gale (talk) 02:45, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

Sorry, but I do not find Viridae's arguments persuasive. Yes, FYC is upset (and for the record, I had absolutely no prior interactions with him). But, in my opinion, trying to soothe him is too high a price to pay for allowing such an obvious violation of the deletion policy to stand and to possibly encourage others to folllow his example (especially in view of Frank's comment above). Nsk92 (talk) 02:53, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

Who is being hurt by having it remain deleted for a little wile while he gets his breath back? Viridae 06:57, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

Sorry but I don't see your reasoning, or any valid reason to revert his delete. Unless you have a personal gripe with FYC there is no reason. I don't buy the "encourage others" idea, and I definitely think you're wrong about it being "such an obvious violation." As I describe below it's not an obvious violation at all. Beam 03:15, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

Do we know this isn't a first step towards RTV? Gwen Gale (talk) 02:54, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

Well, his userpage just says he's on wikibreak. Kelly 02:56, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

The policy does NOT say you can't delete your talk page. It says it's rare, and gives some valid reasons (right to vanish etc) but it does not say you can't delete your talk page. This isn't an article, this wasn't someone elses talk page, this wasn't the main page, this was his own talk page. Let him delete it. It can only hurt him to take such an action. It is NOT a good idea to revert his deletion. There is no "right now" reason to do so, and it can only make the guy feel even worse about this whole situation. Anyone who does revert it, would seem to be acting against FYC, and not for anything. Beam 03:12, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

• I heard from Travis - he plans to undelete his talk page if he returns. Speaking for myself, I'm satisfied with that. Kelly 03:58, 20 July 2008 (UTC)
  • You speak for me as well. :) Beam 04:03, 20 July 2008 (UTC)
  • Yep :) Gwen Gale (talk) 04:04, 20 July 2008 (UTC)
  • Same. This appears to be a mountain out of a molehill situation. Orderinchaos 13:29, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

Quick Summary

Side A: If I have a problem with one single individual regarding an article, making it unavailable to everybody is an acceptable response.

Side B: You have got to be shitting me.

Tell me, which side sounds saner here? Kurt Weber (Go Colts!) 04:36, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

False characterisation. In this case side A is saying that an article violates three important policies and the editors of the article obdurately refuse to conform to said policies. I have checked the entries which are backed by online sources, not one of them use the term "pederastic couple" and several did not use any version of pederasty at all. An agenda is being promoted, as it has been promoted numerous times before, and that stinks. The article is a festering pile of crap at the moment and deletion improves the encyclopaedia, but an acceptable resolution would be ro testrict all past editors to the talk page and have people check every source, remove those not supported by cast-iron references and rewrite so we are nto blazing the trail. It is no secret that Misplaced Pages is regarded as the number one most important place to get your agenda promoted, and that is what I think is happening here. It needs to stop. Guy (Help!) 07:59, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

Is it not possible that the refs are there, but simply in book form? Haiduc has added several book refs to the article, but did not supply the page numbers or ISBNs. Perhaps we should AGF of him here? Jeffpw (talk) 08:06, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

Umm speaking of "false characterisation" you have now accused "editors of the article" of "obdurately refuse to conform to said policies" and pushing agendas. This is patently false. There has been nothing but a willingness of editors to address concerns raised at the AfD, which just closed when this incident occurred, to ensure policies are upheld. Your continuing to insinuate otherwise, here and elsewhere, and leaping of bad faith that all those editors are promoting an agenda as well is quite alarming. Further throwing around how the editors should now be restricted to talk page use only as well? Misplaced Pages isn't served by punishing the very people who are working to correct problems. Just because the exact phrases pederastic couple or a version of pederasty isn't splashed around doesn't mean the more clinical or scientific terminology is false. It's simply referred to in different ways by different cultures throughout history. The footnotes should expand to include this so these sweeping accusations can be more readily dismissed. Banjeboi 14:23, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

Nope. It's the actions of only one particular individual that are mentioned as being the problem. Kurt Weber (Go Colts!) 14:30, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

I've just noticed this and I agree that it was a serious abuse of the tools. The deletion itself was bad enough, and it was followed by an attempt to use the deletion to impose conditions on editors with whom Travis was in dispute, along with the inappropriate deletion of his user talk page in the midst of a controversy. This kind of behavior gives me serious doubts about whether Travis should remain an admin. Everyking (talk) 08:37, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

As somebody directly involved in this dispute with Travis, I will not make a comment as to what should happen to his admin status. But as I stated above, I would like a clear explanation from Admins or Bureaucrats about how they plan to proceed if and when Travis returns. Jeffpw (talk) 09:28, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

"FCYTravis is taking a wikibreak and will be back on Misplaced Pages when the community wises up." At least that is what it says on his user page template. Is this the kind of attitude that the community wants to endorse ? I sincerely hope not. Albion moonlight (talk) 00:56, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

Hell yes, I endorse it. One, the article's a mess. Two, When things got to the point where Travis might flip his shit, he took a break. That's EXACTLY what we want when we talk about people needing to take Wiki-Breaks. Good on him! He needs to KEEP his mop and bucket bits, and talk of him surrendering them is absurd. ThuranX (talk) 06:45, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

The trouble is, he "flipped his shit" before the wikibreak, and there's a definite suggestion in this lot somewhere (I forget where or by who) that it's not his only questionable action either. Crimsone (talk) 21:21, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

That is a serious problem and the community needs to take a very hard look at it. Some people are far too willing to give admins a pass if they abuse their power. There seem to be 2 clear cases of abusing his admin powers to win an editing dispute. The moment an admin edits an article and gets in to a dispute he needs to put his tools away and ask other admins to perform administrative actions.--Crossmr (talk) 09:33, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

Update - relisted at DRV

I have relisted it at DRV here - 24 editors out of 000s is not enough. I can't see how this article is compatible with WP sorry. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Casliber (talk • contribs)

FCYTravis is elsewhere on the internet

This person is elsewhere on the internet and not, in my opinion, making Misplaced Pages look good (but not quite BLP'ing WP if you consider WP to be a living thing). The discussion is on flyertalk.com but only established users can see his comments. In flyertalk, established users mean half a year of editing, not just 4 days as is required in Misplaced Pages. Presumptive (talk) 05:15, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

Is it possible you could be just a tad more cryptic? This is utterly petty if it's what I think I'm reading...that he's criticizing Misplaced Pages outside Misplaced Pages and you are wanting to take action on him for it. --Smashville 13:48, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

Links to external sites have been considered bad for wikipedia for much the same reasons. Badmouthing wikipedia off wiki is either acceptable or it's not... concensus seems to be that it's not... especially from admins apparently, if my memory serves. You can be sure that if any admin were found to be an active editor of, say, wikitruth for one example out of many possible, it would be frowned on greatly. There's nothing I hate more than double standards. Crimsone (talk) 14:14, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

Actually, WP:BADSITES is a soundly rejected policy. *Dan T.* (talk) 14:23, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

Let's also throw out that I'm fairly certain participating on a travel forum is not grounds for anything. --Smashville 15:07, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

It's pretty impossible to criticize any part of Misplaced Pages ON wikipedia, it's a shock that more editors aren't agitating off-site all the time. Like when an admin stands up and takes strong decisive action, too many wikipedians come running to criticize not taking enough time. THe culture of voluntary submission to bureaucracy seen here at times is ridiculous. FCYTravis took action, instead of dancing around till the time limits ran out. good on him. More admins willing to do the right thing would be better. ThuranX (talk) 15:49, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

I've got to say that this whole situation is absurd and irks me. I mean, an admin takes a stance. Does what he thinks is right...and won't back down because he believes what he did is right. Therefore, everyone cries "abuse" because he won't change his mind. And then when it dies down and there's a compromise...someone stirs the pot again by bringing up that he deleted his talk page...and then it dies down again and someone stirs the pot by pointing out he's posting on non-Misplaced Pages websites. Forget common sense and morals (which seems to be what the case was...he saw the page to be a farm for BLP-violations), we are all slaves to process. --Smashville 16:16, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

I have a different understanding of the situation, and I think you have oversimplified it. Moreover, the arguments of the article in question are too complex to be handled by the actions of a single administrator. FCYTravis took a simple approach to a complicated issue over the input of other editors. You call it "tak(ing) a stance" and ThuranX calls it "strong decisive action", but I am unable to see how the arguments of those who were looking to delete the article are valid. I assume those who were in favor of deletion regarded my points the same way. That's why the site needs administrators who can see value in both sides and are able to mediate. Travis did an admirable job in participating in the AfD discussion; his arguments were civil and he treated people respectfully. Not all comments given during the discussion did that. Travis allowed his opinions, which are limited, to direct his action against another admin and a small majority of participants in the discussion. To my knowledge, this was my first interaction with Travis, so I am unable to comment on his actions as an admin in total, but this one action is not praiseworthy and suggests that Misplaced Pages is not for those who agree with this action. We are still a community. Singular actions such as these are more appropriate to one's individual blog or website. --Moni3 (talk) 17:01, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

A Community, not a commune. Harmony and perfect unity aren't our goals here. They can't happen with the various cross prupose agenda warriors populating this site. Travis looked at the debate, at that abyssmal quality of the article and it's attendant lack of citation ,sources, and BIO vios, (not just BLP), and deleted it. It should have been fried long ago. He took the right action to remove an article that romanticizes those relationships, and written by POV pushers seeking to give currect pederasts and pedophiles a historical context to validate their molestations. Some, if not many, of those relationships are poorly 'categorized' and framed there. Leyendecker and Beach, for example. Since marriages between 15 year olds weren't uncommon in much of America, nor marriages of older men to younger wives, categorizing such a relationship as pederasty is questionable without good sources stating that at the time it was considered particularly more distasteful than the average gay relationship. Others on there sound more like white slavery and obvious rape/molestation situations, with 11 year old boys and other prepubescents. There's too much POV and agenda mess going on there. Travis made the right call. ThuranX (talk) 17:09, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

Your language betrays you - pederasty doesn't nessecarily involve molestation, or indeed any form of sexual contact whatsoever. Interesting also that you are supporting the use of the tools in a clear case of editing dispute, you support throwing process and the decisions of the community itself out of the window in favour of "decisive action"... Admins aren't here to lead. They are here to serve. Travis most certainly did NOT make the right call if only in light of the fact that he used the tools to win out on his POV over an issue he was himself involved in... that's bad enough without any other considerations. If there's any POV pushing going on, there it is. It's also telling that you so assume bad faith of the articles authors... not just any given authors, but its authors in general... indeed, you yourself are pushing your own POV here, evidenced by the very text you type. The right call is the one that follows either the rules and processes, or the community concensus, by someone not directly involved in the situation... this call failed completely on all counts. Crimsone (talk) 17:19, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

Again. We're all slaves to process. He thinks he is right, but he still fixed the problem. Why are we still having this discussion? Because he still thinks he's right? --Smashville 19:32, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

More accurately, because he still doesn't think he's done anything wrong, and apparently not for the first time... as such, somthing must be done, an no it doesn't have to involve sanctions... a slapped wrist an a "don't do it again, it'll be noticed" from an appropriate person would suffice. Crimsone (talk) 20:08, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

"My language betrays me"???I don't like child molesters? what a crying shame. Simple fact is still that the article's crap and travis did the right thing. Process wonkery's not going to change the result, either. right is right. the article can't be sourced properly, and thus shouldn't exist. ThuranX (talk) 21:15, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

Oh, horrors! Somebody has the absolute unmitigated gall to participate in other sites and forums other than Misplaced Pages, and even sometimes talk about Misplaced Pages on them! And the stuff they're saying isn't always highly favorable! How unspeakably evil! Get out the banhammer now! *Dan T.* (talk) 14:23, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

Seriously...you want to really make the news...start banning people for things they say outside of Misplaced Pages. I don't remember filling out a confidentiality agreement with my account. --Smashville 15:07, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

Exactly. Misplaced Pages has no jurisdiction outside of Misplaced Pages. Jtrainor (talk) 01:03, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

Wrong. User:Zeraeph was banned from Wikipidea partly because of things she posted at other sites. Please see Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Zeraeph, where the arbitrators decided 9-0 in favor of the idea that a user's off wiki postings related to Misplaced Pages can be used in judging their participation here. Jeffpw (talk) 05:27, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

FCYTravis has left wikipedia indefinitely. I think that the community should just ignore him until he comes back. The chances of him ever using his admin tools again are miniscule. Without his tools he is just another editor. There is no sense in pissing off those editors who back his actions because polarization is not helpful. The time has come to end this drama and wait and see what happens. Albion moonlight (talk) 06:56, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page, such as the current discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

WorkerBee74 on Obama page again

WorkerBee74 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log) has returned from a one-week block for incivility and wikigaming on Barack Obama-related articles to wikigame again and provoke yet more dissent and rancor. I hope not to have to rehash the disruptive history that got us here, or to respond to personal attacks made against me for trying to deal with this disruption.Wikidemo (talk) 20:45, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

I support Wikidemo's post here. Tvoz/talk 20:59, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

Uninvolved editors and admins are encouraged to carefully review the diffs Wikidemo has posted. WorkerBee74 returns to the page, olive branch in hand, and requests mediation. He's told in semi-polite terms to f--k off, and generally treated with barely concealed contempt, and he gets a little annoyed. The memorable phrases "disagree/ provoke/ report" and "whining exaggerated report" were coined in this content dispute with good reason. 74.94.99.17 (talk) 21:24, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

The foregoing message is by one of WorkerBee74's likely IP WP:SOCKs. See Misplaced Pages:Suspected sock puppets/WorkerBee74. "Whining exaggerated report" and "disagree / provoke / report" are phrases this and and some other disruptive editors coined to attack me for dealing with their misbehavior. This report is not about me. Wikidemo (talk) 21:33, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

I coined that phrase and other editors and administrators have warned you that you attack me by using such dismissive language as disruptive. Your action of reporting people here does not give you license to attack people. Your previous bleating behaviour about me and shrill attacks are unacceptable, as well as your psuedo-officious talkpage warnings are passive agressive behaviour. Her is one for you: Continue to engage in your antisocial behaviour, and it will be you who will be blocked. Consider yourself warned and nough of your meritless gaming the AN/I system to attack user as you did me.Die4Dixie (talk) 15:23, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

What does the "demo" in "Wikidemo" stand for, by the way? Are you a Democratic Party operative? Now regarding this "likely socks" nonsense, a Checkuser has been performed and has proven that we are unrelated. Otherwise, I'm sure you would have seen to it that WorkerBee74 was indefinitely blocked, Wikidemo. So please stop making these false accusations. 74.94.99.17 (talk) 21:38, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

If you read the sockpuppet report, the conclusion was that WorkerBee74 socks at 74.94.99.17 - he's certainly acting like WorkerBee74 again here. Socking on his own AN/I report to taunt and make accusations... Wikidemo (talk) 21:57, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

As a user who has edited this page, and has actually supported workerbee's POV: he indeed appears to have many socks. Now, if only an administrator would close out the one month old case on him at WP:SSP (and if Misplaced Pages:Suspected sock puppets/Kossack4Truth had been taken seriously, for that matter), then we might be able to move forward. The Evil Spartan (talk) 22:46, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

Continued wikigaming (attacks me a second time for rejecting mediation - which seems to be the ploy). - — Preceding unsigned comment added by Wikidemo (talk • contribs)

As the last blocking admin, and being someone with absolutely no affiliation with the Barack Obama article or US political topics, I also support Wikidemo's post here. It seems there's a lot of end-run gaming going on. Orderinchaos 13:33, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

Looking at the suspected sock reports and other links, I have to say that a block should be immediate. To me it looks like Gaming the system and socking. I think it time to stop this esp. because of the showing of so many socks being utilized. I endorse a block at this time which includes any socks that are active.--CrohnieGal 16:32, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

Can we please do something about him, now? By taunting me again (about the ninth or tenth time) for discussing his conduct here he's throwing down a gauntlet. Since my last report above he's insulted me again while accusing other editors on the Obama article of "ownership", "flippancy", and plotting, misconduct and bad faith over the events that got him blocked before, and accusing a nominator of an improper AfD nomination. He's basically taken over the discussion again on the Obama article with a point that isn't going to go anywhere. Wikidemo (talk) 22:30, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

It's really time to put this to rest for good. Gaming the system should be more than enough to draw the line; proven use of sock-puppets tops it of. Maybe I'm the stupid one not to use such disgraceful "tools" to get my way? I might consider it in the future if it works that well and screw my principles of honesty. Best regards from a somehow mad user, --Floridianed (talk) 12:16, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

• Consider starting an RFC on user conduct asap. Remember to provide diffs, and clearly mark recent evidence of misconduct between the previous block and when the RFC has been certified. Ncmvocalist (talk) 15:47, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

Do we have to make the case from scratch again? We've been through this a dozen times now. That's extremely time consuming given the extensive history here, and always acrimonious - I get personally attacked every time by this editor and cohorts and scolded by well-intentioned administrators new to the situation that it's just two sides fighting, only a content dispute, I should put up with it, etc. Why can't we just implement the topic ban that everyone keeps proposing? Wikidemo (talk) 16:13, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

I don't think that'll be effective enough, and, I don't think admins are going to give the all clear for it. If you do the RFC, you can take it to ArbCom if it becomes a problem again. Ncmvocalist (talk) 16:17, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

That doesn't leave many good options. I'm not sure I want to invest that kind of time right now or be subjected to the inevitable backlash. At an RfC people will judge the most recent behavior in isolation as a fresh issue without considering the history of the article, escalating sanctions, sockpuppetry, etc. He has thrown the gauntlet as I said - by attacking me again, and taunting me for coming here, if you guys do nothing he's emboldened and he can do it again and blame me for "whining", deliberately provoking people so I can have them blocked, etc. If no admins are willing to stick with it we may just end up in a free for all again on the article. Maybe I should just start striking or deleting his comments when he attacks me. Wikidemo (talk) 16:30, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

I distinctly remember a certain Bigtimepeace saying he'd be looking at the article in response to my suggestions of individual sanctions (which got enacted later down the track anyway!) - what happened to his 'watch' over the article? Ncmvocalist (talk) 17:03, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

The editor is continuing, so at this point I have deleted part of his comment and asked him to stop. I don't know what else to do. Wikidemo (talk) 17:22, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

Time out

I would like the opinion of uninvolved admins and experienced users here. WorkerBee74 is a single-purpose agenda account, one of a handful on pages related to Obama. He has been blocked 4 times in the ~50 days since his account was created. There is a strong suspicion that he's logging out to support himself with IP edits. I propose to indefinitely block this account and move on.

On the other hand, an argument could be made that essentially all he does is argue at Talk:Barack Obama - note 227 edits to the talk page and only 11 to the article. A case could be made to just ignore him unless he either has a cogent, civilly expressed content point or starts edit-warring on the article. I would like some feedback before implementing anything. MastCell  17:38, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

My only agenda is to make this WP biography about a famous politician more similar to other WP biographies about famous politicians. Noroton's comments at the AfD on Bill Ayers election controversy describe this group of editors accurately. Such biographies as George W. Bush (Good Article, 16 conjugations of the word "criticism") and Tony Blair (loaded with criticism on the day it attained Featured Article status) say a lot about this group of editors and their single purpose and their agenda. Trying to keep it civil here but their constant baiting, obstruction and provocation have been repeatedly rewarded, MastCell. WorkerBee74 (talk) 20:02, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

He may have a single interest here, but if he's advocating for his side using the talk page and not edit warring, then tough shit. That's the point of this. In fact, he's painted himself into a corner now ,because should he invoke WP:BOLD and add what he wants to to the page, there's every chance he'll be attacked for edit warring fast. I see no big problem with letting him continue to advocate via our approved and encouraged means, the talk page. As to the incivility, that's a big problem, as are the false accusations. However, the first example above ,where he warns another editor to not get baited and instead pursue the recourses Misplaced Pages, is fine by me. On hot topic pages, running a game on the new guy is common; one starts something, revs up the new guy, then others swoop in for the block requests and so on. Preventing that isn't bad, it's good and helps level the playing field. Finally ,I note that Workerbee's assessment is correct. there isn't any criticism of Obama anywhere on that page. The closest thing is the National Journal's listing of him as the most liberal senator; given they always call the Democratic candidate the most liberal (fill in the blank), that's hardly a balanced article. No block, warning and incivility probation. ThuranX (talk) 20:15, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

Thank you, ThuranX. Thank you very, very much. Zero criticism in a biography about a major party's presumptive nominee? With FA status? For any reasonable person, that alone should be setting off some alarms. Add to it Noroton and his patient documentation of these editors' relentless baiting (ask him, he'll show you). Mother Teresa would blow her cool at some of these people. WorkerBee74 (talk) 21:00, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

I don't think you're correct. There's no substantial criticism of John McCain in his article. Nor do I think any should be added; it's not a coatrack for the presidential campaign. McCain's article looks quite good to me. No alarm bells. On reading it, I don't get the sense that editors are manipulating McCain's Misplaced Pages article to reflect the opposing party's talking points. (OK, it does have a crappy "McCain in popular culture" section). A review of the last couple weeks of editing there looks reasonably calm. Agenda-driven single purpose accounts are quickly handled. I think something similar can be achieved on the Obama article, though I have to say I view Workerbee74 as much more part of the problem than of the solution based on the issues I've outlined above. Thanks to ThuranX for commenting; again, further uninvolved commentary is invited. MastCell  21:30, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

MastCell, if you can't find any criticism at John McCain, try running a search on the page using the word "Keating." McCain was completely cleared by a Democrat controlled committee in that investigation but it gets a mention in the article lead, one or two paragraphs in the body of the article and if I recall correctly, until very recently, it had a bold section header. Try to find anything comparable in Barack Obama. WorkerBee74 (talk • contribs) 22:14, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

I don't want to argue this here, but the Keating Five were subjects of a massive investigation by the Senate Ethics Committee. That's a slightly different level of notability than Obama's relationship with Bill Ayers, though perhaps only "Obama campaign volunteers" are able to perceive it. And McCain's article scrupulously notes that he was cleared of all wrongdoing, that the event led to his interest in campaign finance reform (one of his signature issues), and that it has never been an issue in his numerous campaigns since. As the article should. But since you seem to be trying to find an angle of hypocrisy here, I'll agree that if Obama is or has been investigated by the Senate Ethics Committee or similarly substantive body, then it belongs in his article, maybe even in the lead. Uninvolved editors? MastCell  22:31, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

Not so fast, MastCell. I was just getting warmed up. Take a look at Hillary Clinton. Two sections with bold section headers on "Lewinsky scandal" (where Hillary wasn't even investigated and in fact was a victim) and "Whitewater and other investigations" (where, like McCain, Hillary was exonerated). Then take a look at the October 2004 version of George W. Bush. Sixteen separate conjugations of the word "criticism." Looks like it was written by Josh Marshall. But you don't want to argue this here because it's mitigating evidence, right? WorkerBee74 (talk) 23:09, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

You are correct insofar as I don't want to argue this here. MastCell  23:35, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

Probably because you were losing the argument in rather spectacular fashion and you knew it was only going to get worse. WorkerBee74 (talk) 12:46, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

Not sure why mastcell had to put emphasis on uninvolved right after 'thanking' me. If you don't want comments, don't ask for them. fatuous thanks and snide italics? go to hell. ThuranX (talk) 22:39, 21 July 2008 (UTC) All due apologies. ThuranX (talk) 00:25, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

I'm sorry for the misunderstanding - I did not mean to dismiss your comments in any way, only to solicit more uninvolved input in addition to yours, rather than more argumentation from involved parties. I apologize for the misunderstanding. MastCell  23:27, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

Mention the article devoted to this controversy briefly in the body of Obama's article, with a mention of the fact that despite all the "controversy", Obama has nothing in his past to suggest this sort of thing, and has condemned Ayers' past actions. This is a non-issue, but the fact that it is a non-issue can be documented, and should be. II | (t - c) 22:43, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

Involved commentary

Article probation

The several previous ANI discussions about editorial conduct on the Obama page clearly do not resonate enough, and problems have still not ceased. I think we as a community have had enough of this drama. I propose the following restriction be enacted:

The Obama pages are subject to article probation. Any editor may be sanctioned by an uninvolved administrator for disruptive edits, including, but not limited to, edit warring, personal attacks, incivility and assumptions of bad faith. Sanctions imposed may include restrictions on reverts or other specified behaviors, bans from editing the Obama pages and/or closely related topics, or any other measures the imposing administrator believes are reasonably necessary to ensure the smooth functioning of the project. For the purpose of imposing sanctions under this provision, an administrator will be considered "uninvolved" if he or she is not engaged in a current, direct, personal conflict on the topic with the user receiving sanctions (note: enforcing this provision will not be considered to be participation in a dispute). Sanctions imposed under this provision may be appealed to the imposing administrator, the appropriate administrators' noticeboard or the Arbitration Committee. Administrators are not to reverse such sanctions without either (1) approval by the imposing administrator, or without (2) community consensus to do so. All sanctions imposed are to be logged at Obama/Community_sanction#Log.

Need community consensus to impose this. If it needs any tweaking, let me know. Ncmvocalist (talk) 07:33, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

The terms and conditions of article probation are already in effect. Admins Gamaliel and Rick Block are participating on a regular basis now; they're "involved" but they can call for other admins very quickly. What we have here, NMCV, is a group of editors who have developed marvelous expertise in what Die4Dixie accurately describes as "disagree/ provoke/ report" and what ThuranX described as one editor "revving up" the newbie so that others can report him. They engage in a constant stream of low-level provocation and baiting. False accusations are being used as substitute for a discussion of a proposed edit on its merits. Every trick and stratagem in the book is being used to block anything negative about Obama, and get rid of any editor who seeks to introduce it.

Don't reward this behavior.

One of them gave up an account of several years because he was afraid he was about to be outed as a Democratic Party operative. I suspect there are others who differ from him only in being more careful about concealing their Democratic Party links. WorkerBee74 (talk) 13:21, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

This is completely inappropriate behavior for Misplaced Pages. You don't get to level accusation after accusation against other editors based on nothing but your own imaginings. If your present behavior is any indication, your previous problems were entirely because of your reaction to normal Misplaced Pages interaction. If you want to be a positive presence on Misplaced Pages, you must learn to play well with others, even if, especially if, they disagree with you. Gamaliel (talk) 15:06, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

Strong support --Clubjuggle /C 16:03, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

I heartily welcome such attention to the article. As someone who has been repeatedly berated by the involved editors as a "whiner", liar, etc., for participating on this noticeboard in a non-administrative capacity, I ask that we clarify that good-faith, plausible reports of editor misbehavior, SSP and checkuser requests, and other are not impermissible assumptions of bad faith, but that taunting editors for their good faith participation in administrative discussions is considered disruptive. Non-admins can be honest dealers too. Thanks, Wikidemo (talk) 16:12, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

Yes, casting aspersions (assumptions of bad faith) has been, and continues to be a major problem in this area. It is unacceptable for editors to continually make accusations in an attempt to besmirch another's reputation. Engaging in tendentious argument is also futile. Any concerns should be raised in the appropriate forums, if at all. (Eg; sock-puppetry accusations go as a checkuser request or to WP:SSP) If users have concerns about the continual filing of reports against an individual (should that happen) as if it were an act of harassment or something else, then they should pursue WP:DR. Accusations, attacks and the like are not to be scattered through article talk page discussions, as it further contributes to a toxic environment. The proposed article probation is intended to (in spirit, if not by the letter) tackle these sorts of issues as well. Ncmvocalist (talk) 17:10, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

User Zero g keeps reverting a merge that had consensus and with which he disagrees

User:Zero g keeps undoing a merge with which he disagrees: As per talk page at Richard Lynn (where the article was merged), a straw poll was taken to get the opinions of editors. Zero g is the only one who actually disagreed. When the straw poll had become inactive for over a week, it was closed with a 5-1-1 verdict in favor of the merge. Zero g so strongly disagrees with the merge that he keeps up a slow edit war by reverting Dysgenics: Genetic Deterioration in Modern Populations to the pre-merge version, even if the other editors continue to object to it. Can an admin take a look at the situation and take whatever actions may be necessary? I will candidly admit that I am the one who keeps reverting Zero g's reverts, based on the belief that one cannot single-handedly undo a consensus decision relatively as important as a merge, so I am not by any means an uninvolved party, but I would like someone with more experience to advise on what to do in such a situation.--Ramdrake (talk) 23:53, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

Because you've been around since 2005, I'm probably less experienced than you, but have you requested page protection? --Steven J. Anderson (talk) 00:04, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

As has already been advised, since there is significant opposition to the merge, I recommend that the book article be sent to AfD to get more opinions, and that will put the matter to rest. If there is genuine consensus for the merge, it will show up at the AfD. Either way, please stop edit-warring about it. --Elonka 03:26, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

It would be helpful if Elonka could provide diffs to support her case, particularly for the first sentence. "As has already been advised, there is significant opposition to the merge". There were 5 for, 1 against (Zero g) and 1 abstention (Richard001). This has not changed. As can be seen from User:Zero g's talk page, Elonka is now following his edits and providing him with tips on editing, for reasons best known to herself. Possibly she still regards some of those voting for a merge as a "lynch mob", the words she used when opposing Cailil's recent successful RfA. Her own intervention on the talk page of Richard Lynn came shortly after Zero g's . Without apparently looking at any background, she made an odd suggestion as an ordinary editor and failed to engage in subsequent discussion, thus causing a certain amount of disruption. Could Elonka please be more careful to distinguish between her roles as editor and administrator? Elonka seems also to be misrepresenting User:Wsiegmund, who was responsible for the merge. It would have been appropriate for her to have made her remarks one or two weeks earlier when the merge of this article was suggested and discussed in detail, but certainly not when she actually intervened with such disdain for other "junior editors" by refusing to enter into discussion. (The article on Lynn actually contains far more material on the book than the subsequent fork, which apart from a list of contents, contained a synopsis of the book which as WP:OR would not have survived.) If at the appropriate time, Elonka had herself proposed an AfD for the article on the book, to debate a merge/deletion, that would have been fine; but not how and when she did it. That seems to be the problem/wikidrama she has helped create here. Mathsci (talk) 06:55, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages is not a democracy and the consensus has little value in this case. The way the merge is carried out is mutual to an article deletion, hece the AfD route should be taken. It also appears that Ramdrake's goal isn't as much to improve Misplaced Pages, but to delete and erase anything he does not like (from what appears to be an extreme liberal pov), whether it is properly sourced or not. Just a brief glance at Ramdrake's contributions shows his main activities on Misplaced Pages appear to be reverting, minor edits (often mentioning a certain somebody has been called "racist" by some liberal source), endless talk page discussions with the opposition, and wiki-stalking. --Zero g (talk) 04:13, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

On the contrary, Misplaced Pages is based on consensus editing. There is nothing in Misplaced Pages policy which requires an AfD to be produced every time a merge is proposed; that would be pure and simple red tape. Please don't confuse your non-acceptance of a consensus with the absence of consensus. Unfortunately, the world doesn't revolve around you.--Ramdrake (talk) 12:48, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

On WP:RPP, Zero g has written

Ramdrake and four other editors (who appear to form a pov cabal coordinating their efforts on hereditary articles displaying an extreme liberal bias) refuse to put the article up for deletion, and instead try to silently burry it by merging it into the Richard Lynn article

Could Zero g please explain how this "pov cabal" functions and how it applies to both reviews of the book presented in Richard Lynn? Could it in fact be the case that these are simply editors who independently happen to disagree with Zero g? As I've said before, I would actually not be against having the very recently created article put on WP:AfD to discuss a merge/delete. So far its notability has not been established by normal academic criteria, although all of the 7 or 8 academic reviewers agree that it is a valuable source of data. Mathsci (talk) 08:32, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

The cabal functions by canvassing, another editor of the group will soon show up whenever there is something going on.

They generally don't try to have the same opinion, but share the same deletionist attitude. For example User1 wants an article or chapter gone for reason A, User2 wants it gone for reason B, and user3 wants it gone for reason A and B; though amazingly, favoring alternative C slightly more.

It should go without saying that the stuff they want gone is properly sourced. When there is opposition to the removal of sourced content, they'll make sure they have a reasonable amount of support and have a 'consensus vote'. They always vote in favor of their group, and if they manage to get enough votes in, have one of them start edit warring claiming to have 'majority consensus'.

When this doesn't work, Misplaced Pages after all is not a democracy, they become rude and start wiki-lawyering (you're not AGF! etc), taunting, and having long tedious (soapy) talk page discussions that go in circles and never go anywhere because they don't desire a consensus (they have 'majority consensus' after all). Not before long they'll report the offensive user to Ani, or some 'neutral admin' - who is in fact part of the clique and sympathetic to their viewpoints - though not editing the article in question (but often editing one or more related articles). --Zero g (talk) 12:28, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

I second Mathsci's request that Elonka's statement of a "significant opposition" is pointless, unless she herself now objects, intervening as an editor rather than an uninvolved admin. Otherwise, the "significant" opposition is limited to a single editor who cannot accept a 5-1-1 merge verdict, and if we let this go by, we indeed demonstrate that a single person can significantly derail Misplaced Pages's processes and indeed act as it they owned an article without opposition, and indeed be supported in this disruption. Indeed, I wouldn't have objected to an AfD at all back when the merge was being proposed. However, seven editors expressed an opinion, 5 of those being in favor of the merge, and when no opinion had been registered for a week, the straw poll was closed. Then, after one week without anyone objecting, Zero g (the lone original dissenter) comes back, and starts reverting the merged article (which had been stable as a redirect for a week), even though most other editors have voiced their objections again to undoing the merge. Also, although I won't delve in them, Zero g's contributions also show a pattern of editing which demonstrates a kind of slant not normally accepted at Misplaced Pages. Just the fact that he calls such articles as Dysgenics and Race and Intelligence "hereditary articles" should give people a hint as to his leanings.--Ramdrake (talk) 12:37, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

I think it would be a good idea for you to review your understanding of WP:CONSENSUS. Misplaced Pages is not a democracy. The fact that more people oppose the merge than agree with it does not mean a consensus is reached. If there are valid points being made for both solutions then these need to be addressed. I highly recommend an afd or rfc as suggested above. I also remind you to assume good faith objecting to a merge is not disruptive, but claiming a false consensus and trying to 'railroad' a decision is. --neon white talk 13:28, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

As per the link I provided above, the decision was 5-1-1 in favor of a merge, with no overpowering argument against the merge, except one which amounted to WP:ILIKEIT. I'm not saying that objecting to a merge is disruptive, but single-handedly, repeatedly undoing a merge which has been in effect for a week because one disagrees with it certainly is disruptive. Also, if you are thinking that more people oppose the merge than agree with it describes the situation either you are mistaken about the situation, or you are privy to information which nobody else has. If the latter is the case, please share with us.--Ramdrake (talk) 14:09, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

I think I am part of the "cabal" Zero G refers to ... I can only appeal to my fellow editors to judge what follows based on the contents and not my identity. The question is, why do we have an article on a book about population genetics, when the author has no expertise in population genetics and the book is not taken seriously by population genetics? Does the book really need its own article, or can't it be discussed in the article on the author of the book (the author is clearly better-known than the book in question)? Above, Elonka states that there is significant opposition to the merge. She elides two different meanings of "significant." It is true that Zero G is really opposed to the merge. However, it is not true that many editors are opposed to the merge. In fact, this proposal has been discussed extensively and as Ramdrake observes Zero G is the only person who objects. In the context of this discussion - of a discussion of how to resolve conflicts on the article talk page, and how to improve the article, one objection is hardly "significant." Zero G is coming very close to the kind of POV warrioring that Misplaced Pages must strongly and decisively reject.

For those who are not clear on the nature of the dispute, it is this: there is a body of evidence that Blacks on average score lower than Whites on IQ tests, at least in the US. There is considerable debate as to why, and researchers have put forward a range of explanations. Richard Lynn, a psychologist, claims that Blacks are inherently inferior to Whites i.e. their inferiority is genetic. Richard Lynn is not a geneticists and has done no genetics research, and his view is considered fringe by all trained professional geneticists. This is not an "extreme liberal POV," it is a "scientific" POV meaning the view of geneticists about genetics. Most of the editors who have argued against Zero G - I will name Ramdrake and Alun - have never argued on political grounds and have only argued on the grounds of identifying notable versus fringe views amond different kinds of scientists.

There is at Misplaced Pages an article on Richard Lynn, and his views are aired here at Misplaced Pages. No one has argued that his views be deleted from Misplaced Pages (so much for some liberal POV!) However, Zero G is systematiclly inserting Lynn's views everywhere he can, including creating new articles to repeat the same views. I view this as straightforward POV-warrioring. Does this make me a liberal? Well, skip what I just said and do what we Wikipedians are supposed to be good at: scholarly research. Look at the literature by trained professional geneticists on this topic, and see how many geneticists support Lynn's views. When it comes to complying with our NPOV and FRINGE policies, this is what matters, and not the enthusiasm with which Zero G pushes his own POV.

This is a set of conflicts that has plagued this article for a long time. you would have thought that a couple of RfCs would have been sufficient to resolve the issue, especially since they all overwhelmingly went in the same direction (the direction Ramdrake, mathsci and others are following). But Elonka and Zero G apparently are not satisfied with the RfC process, so I urge other editors to give this matter serious consideration. Let me close by observing that the race and intelligence topic is highly controversial in the US and I would think the articles on this topic are among the ones many people judge us by. Screw politics: let's focus on NPOV, FRINGE, V and other policies, as well as our responsibility first and foremost to write a high quality encyclopedia that provides readers with an accurate and proportionate account of current leading research on scientific topics. Slrubenstein | Talk 12:39, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

Oh, please. Not Race and intelligence again. Can't we just ban Zero g and any other SPAs in the closet from this set of articles/topic? They're doing no good here, unless you count persistent WP:FRINGE violation as "good". Zero g has been doing this since 2006, so he really should have learnt the rules by now. Looking at this, incidentally, he looks to be of the far-right Dutch type that crop up again now and again. Moreschi (talk) (debate) 16:14, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

This is not worth a lengthy ANI thread. Just file an AfD. If no one is sure how to file one, see WP:AFD, or ask for assistance. If there's a genuine consensus, it'll show up at the AfD, there's no need to insist that a limited conversation on one talkpage "proves" consensus. --Elonka 16:22, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

Um, no. Talkpage discussion is how we do merges. AfD is for deletion debates, not merge debates. Moreschi (talk) (debate) 16:27, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

(resetting indent) I think we may be losing sight of the real issue here: a merge was proposed by the book (i.e., following Misplaced Pages processes). The merge proposal remained open for 2 weeks, during which time it received input from 7 different users. The proposal was closed after 11 days without any activity. The proposal was closed by the book, returning a verdict of 5-1-1 in favor of merging. This is no different than several merge proposals and XfDs which I've seen, which are rarely if ever unanimous. Now, the lone dissenting editor keeps reverting the merge, arguing that Misplaced Pages is not a democracy (nobody says it is) and that either there was no consensus because he didn't agree to it, or that consensus doesn't mean anything (it is a major editing policy of Misplaced Pages, on the contrary). The remainder of this situation is basically wikidrama, and hides a simple, plain fact: one editor is consistently acting disruptively by refusing to accept consensus (or even denying it exists), and reverting a merge that was done in full compliance of Misplaced Pages policy.--Ramdrake (talk) 16:22, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

Any editor can file an AfD, they don't need to have "consensus" to do so. It appears that Zero g wants an AfD, but he's unsure how to file one. So I recommend that someone who does know how to file one, please do so. An AfD will put this matter to rest, once and for all. --Elonka 16:30, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

Except that merge discussions are not supposed to be decided at AfD. That's what the talk page is for. Moreschi (talk) (debate) 16:33, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

A merge discussion is also sometimes a deletion discussion, as it involves the deletion of one sub-article that is then merged into the larger article. There is disagreement about whether or not the sub-article should be deleted, so an AfD is appropriate. I think Zero g would have filed the AfD himself, but he's just not sure how.

My own participation in this situation is as an uninvolved admin. I personally don't care if the merge is accomplished or not, but I do care that it's handled properly. From what I see, the merge discussion that is being referred to at the talkpage, was not handled "by the book". It was started by Wsiegmund on June 2, and then closed by the same editor on July 13. It is extremely bad form for a nominator to close their own discussion. Further, there was no "announcement" of this discussion. No RfC, just a small discussion on one talkpage, with primarily the same editors participating, just as they have in multiple other articles in that topic area. Then once they'd "closed" their own merge discussion, they declared consensus, and proceeded to edit-war to enforce their view, and even went as far as opening this ANI thread to deal with their "opponent", Zero g.

I strongly disagree with this approach. To make it truly fair, there should be an open RfC, or an AfD. An AfD is probably easier, but either method would be acceptable. The point is, that this kind of a decision should not be railroaded by a small group of editors that are already working together in other areas of conflict. The current merge discussion at the talkpage, even though it looks like a formal RfC, is not. So, I still recommend a wider community discussion, or at least the opportunity for one. If there is a genuine consensus, it will show up that way. So, in terms of disruption, we could continue wrangling about this on ANI, or we could just file an AfD, and then there's an organized mechanism to put this issue to rest. So revert this edit, file an AfD, and then we can close this ANI thread and let the normal community discussion process handle the rest. --Elonka 17:38, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

Elonka, there are several inaccuracies in your assessment of the situation:

• A merge proposal does not require anything else than the proper template being placed on the merge-from and merge-to articles' talk pages, with a link to a single discussion space on either talk page (so as to avoid duplication of the discussion). It does not require special listing as for XfDs and RfCs.
• As per WP:MERGE, there is nothing preventing a nominator from closing their own merge discussions, after a reasonable amount of time has passed (I would say several weeks qualifies as a reasonable amount of time). In fact, the very wording of WP:MERGE seems to imply that it is indeed normal for a merge nominator to close and archive their own discussions.
• By allowing the strong objections of a single editor to override a closed merge discussion process, you are in fact allowing him to railroad the intended process. This is not even the case of be(ing) railroaded by a small group of editors, this is the case of a single editor being allowed to railroad the process.
• Your analysis seems to confuse a merge discussion with an RfC discussion. Please be aware that these are not the same process, as per WP:RfC and WP:MERGE.--Ramdrake (talk) 18:12, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

Ramdrake, I do not believe that is an accurate assessment of WP:MERGE. The nominator is only supposed to close their own merge discussion if there is a "clear consensus" or silence. However, if "the merger may be controversial, you might want to add a listing to Misplaced Pages:Proposed mergers." So, was this particular controversial merge listed? Because I did not see it. Was there an RfC? I didn't see that either. If there was some discussion or notification of this merge, outside of the specific article talkpages, I would be happy to review the links, thanks. --Elonka 20:37, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

Let's see: 5 people were in favor of the merge, 1 against and 1 neutral. At the time of closing, the merge discussion had been inactive for 11 days. I do not see any signs of controversy here; there is just one editor opposing the merge, and then letting go of the situation for 11 days. This was not a controversial debate until Zero g started making a fuss about it and reverting the merge repeatedly several days after it had been done. Please note that posting to Misplaced Pages:Proposed mergers is not a requirement, just a suggestion. There wasn't either a requirement for an RfC. As per WP:MERGE, the specific requirements for a merge discussion were met, and the merge wasn't a controversial one until Zero g made it so, several days after it was done.--Ramdrake (talk) 20:47, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

Because I am wary of misusing AfD. Each time we do that we send out the wrong message about what AfD is for. At bottom AfD is for telling admins when the community thinks they should use their "delete" button. Right? But a merge does not involve deletion. It involves redirection, which is not a matter for administrators to resolve. That's a matter for the community to sort out, on talk pages. I get really cheesed off when someone comes to AfD saying "I want this merged", because a merge is something anyone can do, anyone at all. It does not require admin buttons, and hence AfD is not the right process. Talkpage discussion is. Moreschi (talk) (debate) 17:40, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

Besides - Elonka? All this dysgenics/race-and-intelligence-connection material Zero g is pushing is really fringy. And he's been doing it since 2006. Without doing anything else, hardly. I think he's the underlying problem here, not his opponents. Moreschi (talk) (debate) 17:42, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

Moreschi, thanks, and I understand your concerns. And I agree that talkpage discussion is fine, as long as there is adequate participation. It's just that in this case, I am not sure that there was sufficient participation. To fix that, I still think an AfD is easier, but an RfC would be fine too. As for Zero g (talk · contribs), he's been an editor for two years, but also note that he's got fewer than a thousand edits. But even with limited participation, he has still managed to work on a variety of articles, and he has made many valid edits. So I don't think we should just label him as "Fringe" and ignore what he has to say. I'd be more inclined to abide by WP:BITE, meaning that if he wants to challenge the merge, instead of us labeling him a troublemaker, we should patiently explain the Misplaced Pages dispute resolution mechanisms, and show him how he can best participate on Misplaced Pages. Remember, just because someone is proposing a non-mainstream view, doesn't mean we should kick them off of Misplaced Pages. Instead, we should welcome them, if they can participate in a civil and constructive fashion, since their participation helps us to create neutral and well-rounded articles. So I recommend that we work on this from an angle of teaching, not punishing. --Elonka 18:26, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

I was involved in a lengthy merge dispute that was quickly resolved by taking one of the articles to AfD, described in more detail at Misplaced Pages:Village pump (policy)#Mergers at AfD. The situations may or may not be comparable. Flatscan (talk) 22:10, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

WP:TIGERS, Elonka. Unfortunately, no matter how civil they are, there's a limit to the compromises we can have with someone who holds a viewpoint this far out, and who pushes it on Misplaced Pages, which aims to reflect academic consensus. If Zero g refuses to understand that then there will be consequences. There have to be. And his viewpoint is fringe. WP:SPADE. The same holds true for our Hindutva pals or Neo-Nazis or hardcore Afrocentrists or whatever. See also the the quotebox here. Moreschi (talk) (debate) 18:40, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

An indef block/ban of Zero g in this case is excessive. — Rlevse • Talk • 18:34, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

yes, I wasn't proposing that. Please check again as to what I did propose :) Moreschi (talk) (debate) 18:40, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

Again, I think Elonka's defense of Zero g is a bit disingenuous. Two years, 1000 edits, and maybe 97 percent of those edits look in some way to be related to Eugenics, even the ones to not-obviously-related articles like social justice. Again, WP:SPADE - that's a single-purpose account, I'm afraid. WP:TIGERS points out very nicely that eugenics articles do not have to be written via endless controversy between editors representing mainstream science - Ramdrake, Slrubenstein - and the hardcore right-wing element of Dutch politics, where I strongly suspect Zero g fits in. Moreschi (talk) (debate) 18:49, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

(reset indent) For the record, I don't oppose moving this to AfD, even though I think it should have been done weeks ago, as it now looks like a violation of WP:PARENT (having been overruled in the merge discussion, Zero g seems to want a change of venue to get a second chance). I do, however, object to Zero g's repeated reversal of the merge, followed by telling the other editors to "start an AfD". If he wants an AfD, he should start one.--Ramdrake (talk) 21:03, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

I have looked through Zero g's contribs, and to my knowledge he has never filed an AfD. It can be a daunting prospect for someone who has never done one, so I'd recommend that one of the more experienced editors do it. Or, if there are no objections, I'll go ahead and file it, just for procedure's sake. I truly do not care if the book article exists or not, I just want to make sure that dispute resolution procedures are followed. --Elonka 21:12, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

Great, Elonka, you have proven that ZeroG has not petitioned an AfD, as perhaps was his prerogative. Swell. But ou have also said that an alternative would be an RfC - and it has been pointed out to you several times that there was at least one RfC on the matter. Elonka, it is time for you to come clean. The integrity of Misplaced Pages depends on this: What is your motivation in derailing the prope following of the merge-article process? Everyone save Zero G, a single-purpose editor, supports it, and other editors have been following Misplaced Pages policies. Why do you want to derail wikipedia policies? What is your interest in subverting the process here? I honestly do not understand it. AGF insists I take your comments as constructive but please, can you explain to me what constructive suggestion you have forwarded here? All I see is an attempt to derail a pretty standard Misplaced Pages process. Slrubenstein | Talk 22:48, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

I wonder whether Elonka might please stop acting as Zero g's alter ego? Her experiment in mentoring his companion editor Jagz was a signal failure. Now she seems determined to continue it with Zero g. If Elonka wants to file an AfD, please could she do it herself? It seems quite improper for Elonka to act as a behind-the-scenes advisor for other editors, suggesting the actions she would take if she were in their shoes. She says there is a dispute to be resolved. However it is in fact a careless disruptive edit of Elonka herself that has created this whole wikidrama. Could she please carefully reconsider her behaviour on WP in the future and when intervening on a page take some time to review what has been going on. That way she will not waste the time of good faith editors as she now is doing. Thanks, Mathsci (talk) 23:15, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

Where is this RFC? This issue of whether to merge a book/author has probably been discussed hundreds of times before, so there should be plenty of good yardsticks lying around, and maybe even guidelines. John Vandenberg 00:55, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

As per this diff, Zero g is still unmerging the article and asking me to put it up for deletion. Can someone make him understand that if he wants to unmerge the article, this would be solely for AfD purposes, and that the onus is then upon him to put it up for Afd? Otherwise, that becomes just plain and simple POV-warring for the sake of POV-warring, and that's a blockable offense.--Ramdrake (talk) 01:20, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

That diff is not what I asked for. John Vandenberg 02:30, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

Sorry, indenting error, that never was meant to be the diff in question.--Ramdrake (talk) 03:15, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

• Randrake, Slrubenstein, Mathsci - can I ask why it is we keep seeing the three of you show up in places together and the threads quickly degenerate into snippy comments and personal attacks? "derail wikipedia policies" "integrity of Misplaced Pages depends on this" "wasting the time of good faith editors" -- c'mon, are we really supposed to take you seriously when you throw out comments like that? You guys need to take a breather and try to come at your editing on race related articles in a much more calm and civil fashion. If there's crap going on, document it, present it factually and deal with the comments you get - this persistent drama when you're not getting the outcome you want is really unnecessary. Several people suggested actions here, such as requesting protection and community discussion forums - is there any reason not to try that? Why do all of the threads started by this group end up looking like they're out to get another editor? If an editor is that much trouble, there's pretty standard methods of dealing with it through user RfCs and ArbCom; roasting them over ANI isn't really a preferred method (though sometimes tasty). Shell 01:42, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

Regarding why I haven't gone the AfD route myself, primarily because I believe the article is notable so putting it up for deletion would be WP:POINT.

Regarding talk accusations, I guess he isn't well read on the subject matter, Ramdrake and Co have failed to provide notable sources that state that Dysgenics is considered a fringe science. And given there haven't been any public polls that I know of, the 'assumed' public opinion, unfortunately, cannot be added to these articles. The edit conflict actually began when Ramdrake started to remove properly sourced content from the Dysgenics article. I've never tried to push a pov on wikipedia, as an editor I've grown and learned to properly source my edits, and to respect sourced edits of other editors. Ramdrake on the other hand more than once removed sourced content, and has tried to add content that wasn't backed up by the sources he provides. This wouldn't be so bad if it wasn't for the fact that he doesn't seem motivated to improve his editing behavior.

I'm also not particularly fond of the 'hey you're a nazi! - lets ban the nazi!' thing. I'm a libertarian and I'm quite aware that many people would vehemently disagree with many of my viewpoints or motivations for my viewpoints, but I wasn't aware that people can get banned on Misplaced Pages for a suspected political belief. --Zero g (talk) 01:45, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

Per Zero g's request, I have started an AfD, which is available at: Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Dysgenics: Genetic Deterioration in Modern Populations. I have also added it to two delsort categories, for "science" and "social science". I now recommen d closing this ANI thread, since the AfD should now be the primary point of discussion. --ElonSpecial:Contributions/Elonka 04:57, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

In response to Shell (I am on European time). I did not choose to bring this to WP:AN/I. Since my carefully sourced addition of the book reviews precipitated the forked article, it was quite normal that I should participate here. I don't quite understand why you have adopted the tone above. Certainly what you write does not seem particularly accurate (my recent participation here was concerned with now banned users User:Muntuwandi and User:log in, log out). This thread would not have come about if yet another of your friend Elonka's "experiments" hadn't gone wrong. Mathsci (talk) 06:52, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

Regardless of who brought things here, the three of you seem to have developed a nasty habit of drama building that includes feeling personal attacks are appropriate. I believe you also seem to have a particular penchant for taking swipes at Elonka, which you've been warned for multiple times and you're here doing it yet again. Zero g has made mature and thoughtful posts to this thread, while you, Ramdrake and Slrubenstein aren't holding yourselves to quite the same standard. Zero g took it upon himself to try one of the methods suggested to resolve the issue; you, Ramdrake and Slrubenstein did not. I know its tough to really take a step back and look at your own actions, but when people keep saying the same things to you in multiple places, please consider that they might really have some merit - and if nothing else, please don't try to deflect concerns about your behavior with attacks on other editors. Shell 08:35, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

Shell, please step back a moment. I have not been uncivil. I have merely criticized Elonka's tardiness. Moreschi is one of the few people to have recognized the problems with editor Zero g. His contributions have not been "mature" - his reference here to a "pov cabal" was unhelpful. The tone you are adopting is equally unhelpful and your observations, particularly about the belated AfD, do not seem accurate. Elonka suggested and initiated the AfD, not Zero g. Why not, like me, do something constructive and go to the AfD page where I have already expressed my thanks to Elonka for its creation? Thanks, Mathsci (talk) 09:16, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

Honestly Mathsci, I really didn't comment just to get into another long debate with you where you feign ignorance of any of your (and your cohort's) behavior and pretend I'm being somehow rude. Your comments here have clearly not remained civil; you've managed to call Elonka an alter ego to a "bad" contributor, characterize her edits as careless, disruptive and a waste of everyone's time and even accused her of being the one to create drama . You have been asked very politely before to stop commenting on Elonka since you've said that you're unaware that you're making personal attacks in reference to her.

Aside from the "pov cabal" comment you mention by Zero g, I don't see anything of concern during this discussion. I think, give the behavior I've seen during this thread, that Zero g may have a point, even though it could have been more civilly phrased. Perhaps Zero g behaves differently elsewhere, but again there's a proper avenue to handle things if that's a concern. As far as the AfD goes, I'm going to guess that you just overlooked the "Per Zero g's request" part. Thanks for the invite, but I'm not sure I'm quite ready to dive into the issues surrounding the race related articles at this time. Since you appear to be content with handling things there, that should clear up the concerns for this thread then, no? Shell 10:00, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

Shell, I am the one who started this thread at ANI, based on a simple, objective set of facts: Zero g kept reverting (and edit-warring to keep the reversion) a merge which was done fully according to the rules (at WP:MERGE) several days ago. He was also the only one to object to the merge when the merge proposal was active. On top of this, after reverting, (and mostly denying the existence of a consensus even though it did exist) he kept insisting that other editors should file an AfD if they disagreed with his reversion. To me, that's not really acceptable behaviour. This situation got further inflated when Zero g started throwing around accusations of a POV cabal (or whatever) and gradually escalated from there. From what I see, your comment only further inflames the situation, even though I'm pretty sure that's really not what you intended. I would really appreciate if you would let this situation de-escalate. Thanks.--Ramdrake (talk) 10:46, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

Shell, you write, "c'mon, are we really supposed to take you seriously when you throw out comments like that?" Before you accuse me of either being defensive or offensive let me explain because I am not trying to throw out some casual insult. But you have questioned my good faith and you seem to base it on a comment I made here. Do you know that there has been a series of ongoing disputes centered on Race and intelligence and adjunct articles over the past two or three years? If you want to know what kinds of comments I or others "throw out," you need to look at them in the context of the whole conversation. If you look at the talk pages ofr R&I and other articles you will see a great deal of reasonable, constructive discussion by myself, and others you have maligned. In fact, Alun in particular has added hundreds of kilobytes or more to talk pages on these subjects in which he has gone into painful detail about the current state of scientific research, detailing various sources, discussing their notability, and how they could be used in articles. Yes, you should take us very seriously, because of the valuable content we have brought into the articles and into discussions. And you should take us seriously because of our commitment to Misplaced Pages policies. The question you should be asking is, why do several editors who are clearly not single-purpose accounts, who have contributed to a variety of articles, who have clearly done considerable research relating to articles, disagree with an editor who apparently has no expertise in science and whose edits all have in common the pushing of a single point of view? The only way a responsible editor can answer this question is by looking at the contents and the research behind it. Zero G is promoting as mainstram science a scholar who argues that people are poor because they are less intelligent than people who are not poor, and that "What is called for here is not genocide, the killing off of the populations of incompetent cultures. But we do need to think realistically in terms of "phasing out" of such peoples. If the world is to evolve more better humans, then obviously someone has to make way for them. ... To think otherwise is mere sentimentality." Do you really believe these views are mainstream science? I have read through a good deal of the mainstream science on intelligence, genetics, and poverty, and I know that Ramdrake and Alun have as well; Matchsci has also demonstrated that he has very well-grounded knowledge of the sciences. This is why you should take us seriously. Now, you want us to take you seriously, I suppose. How much time have you spent researching the mainstream science concerning these topics? Have you done any research at all? Or are you just taking Zero G's side against several editors because ... well, why? Is it just that you agree with the views he is promoting? Or are you opposed to Misplaced Pages's FRINGE policy? Or are you opposed to mainstream science? Slrubenstein | Talk 13:13, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

Actually, I haven't commented on the content dispute at all and really don't intend to. I honestly wasn't trying to take a "side" and my remarks weren't intended to lend any weight to any kind of content issues that may be underlying the posts here. My comment was only about the behavior of editors in this thread, the language used and the general incivility. You may well have been in this mess for so long that you're very frustrated and its coming out in your posts, for example, asking if I'm just "opposed to mainstream science" is actually pretty offensive - if you genuinely feel that by pointing out that you may need a breather, I'm aligning with fringe somehow, you may want to re-think they way you're handling this area right now. Your response to my comments in general underscores the point I was trying to make - you, and several other editors involved in the dispute, seem to be taking things a bit personally at this time and may not realize that you're coming off in a rather defensive and incivil manner. But hey, its my opinion, not law and didn't come with any "be nice or else" type nastiness, so if you really feel I'm off base, you can just ignore the friendly insights. Shell 14:32, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

Well, Shell, I appreciate your clarification that you are not trying to take a side. I realize that this is going to sound defensive but the fact is that some people have responded to this report by disparaging my character. The facts: There was a poll taken at talk: Richard Lynn to merge the two artciels. The results were 5-1-1, the one opposid 9the only one opposed) being Zero G. Zero G and those involved in the merge got into a revert war and Ramdrake posted the notice here, which seemed to me to be appropriate. At that point Elonka characterized the opposition to the merge "significant;" on Moreschi's user talk page she characterized the dispute as a small group of editors ganging up on a "newbie" (except he has been active - as a single issue editor - for two years) and calling whatever they believe to be "consensus." Elonka is wrong to assert that there is significant opposition to the merge, and she is wrong to question the good faith of several very well-informed editors who have challenged Zero G's edits on substantive grounds. It is frankly perverse that Elonka says we should disregard WP:FRINGE in this case, and that the view of one single-purpose editor is considered "significant" and the five very well-informed editors who disagree are a cabal who are creating phony consensuses. Let's be very clear about what is going on: the biological basis for social inqualities is a controversial topic, and it is especially important that we comply with NPOV. NPOV requires that we distinguish between significant and fringe theories, and this distinction is especially important to the quality of the encyclopedia, which is the whole point. And this means taking seriously editors who are committed to serious research, and being careful that our editorial choices are well-informed. And that is exactly what happened when, after much well-informed and thoughtful discussion, five people voted for a merge and only one person opposed.

Now, Shell, you cannot step in and basically lump myself, Ramdrake, and Mathsci as some kind of gang of disruptive editors who should not be taken seriously, and then claim to be offended when I question your motives while you also admit that you have not gone over the actual content of the dispute. You write, "If there's crap going on, document it, present it factually and deal with the comments you get - this persistent drama when you're not getting the outcome you want is really unnecessary" - huh? Please now tell me why I should take you seriously, when all you have to do is read the opening of this thread and you will see that Ramdrake DID document the crap going on factually, and with no drama whatsoever. Or are you now denying that Ramdrake presented the facts, or claiming he did so in an inappropriate way? Are your insights really friendly, and my reaction "taking things personally," when I was responding to your comment which basically was your saying: I do not take Ramdrake, Mathsci and Slrubenstein seriously - especially when it is we who keep asking people to look at the facts, look at the content, look at the substance behind this edit war. No comments for Zero G? Really? Are you sure you are not taking any side? You write, "I haven't commented on the content dispute at all and really don't intend to." Well, it is easy to sit back and pass judgement on your fellow editors when you make it clear that you do not intend to take the time to investigate the situation. You want to know why there are a few people who pay careful attention to race-related articles and take firm positions when science is misrepresented? You will have to open your eyes and learn something about both race and science if you want to know the real answer to your question. As long as you refuse to look at the contents, of course you will misunderstand. I won't take that personally - and I am just offering you some friendly advice Slrubenstein | Talk 15:06, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

Look, Moreschi's identification of Zero g as a single-purpose agenda account was correct. But notice how easily the thread got derailed when Zero g was able to be relatively more polite here than Ramdrake, Mathsci, and Slrubinstein? I can sympathize - anyone dealing with Jagz for that long is bound to get frustrated - but you have to realize that Elonka and Shell are not The Enemy. From my experience in looking in on these articles, I would support Moreschi's idea of a topic ban for Zero g, but I don't think it's going to fly - because any admin looking at this thread without a familiarity with the lengthy history on those pages is going to conclude that you guys are going overboard. MastCell  17:05, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

What substance? Your only contributions seem to be to the article talk page discussions, most notably voting in "polls", and reverting. Then there is also the social networking. --Zero g (talk) 16:59, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

HEY! THIS IS LEFT FIELD! The Topic is up there ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^. Kindly shut the hell up and go fight elsewhere, ALL OF YOU. You're embarrassing yourselves. ThuranX (talk) 17:05, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

MastCell, I hope you are not responding to me, because if you are I have been unclear and apologize. i have not called for any block or ban against Zero G. My first comment was a protest against Elonka's inappropriate re3sponse to Ramdrake's AN?I post, and subsequent posts were meant to defend myself and others from outlandish accusations of POV-pushing. I also intended to makie a more general comment that no one can adequately resolve such disoutes without an awareness of the contents itself. That's as far as my comments went.

I asked serious questions of Elonka and Shell, both of whom are dismissive of my views about enforcing WP;FRINGE and my commitment to research. Neither of them have responded yet. But I see no enemies: I see a typically contentious argument over a controversial issue. I am strived to explain my views clearly and do not like being told I will not be taken seriously because I care about race related articles and have given tem serious research. Slrubenstein | Talk 20:37, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

Slrubenstein, one of my own concerns about your style here, is that you tend to make personal attacks at those who disagree with you, and you do this with comments that are extremely repugnant. In my own previous discussions with you, you have accused me of "tolerating trolls", of trying to delete WP:DNFTT, and even of supporting racism, which is simply absurd. You have made your opinion clear that you see my actions as "corrosive" to Misplaced Pages, and that you wonder about my "priorities as an administrator." Here in this thread at ANI, you have continued with these kinds of hyperbolic accusations, implying that "the integrity of Misplaced Pages" depends on my motivation, and accusing me of trying to "derail the merge-article process" as well as other Misplaced Pages policies. You have also effectively accused Shell Kinney of agreeing with extremist views, and being "opposed to mainstream science", which, again, is absurd. So, if you truly desire to be taken seriously, I recommend that you adopt a better standard of rhetoric, and get away from these kinds of bizarre accusations. Especially as you are an administrator, other editors do look to you as an example. I would be more comfortable if you were able to present your thoughts in a more measured fashion, without all the excessive accusations. --Elonka 22:26, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

Hiya, Elonka. I hope that you might also appreciate that it was not very helpful posting remarks like this on Moreschi's talk page:

My concern is that a small group of editors, all agreeing with each other, moving from article to article and rolling over opposition, does not define "consensus". And that this group is adamantly opposed to any kind of wider community input such as an RfC or AfD, further concerns me.

Might you have privately communicated similar remarks to Shell before she appeared on this thread? Many thanks, Mathsci (talk) 23:04, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

Elonka, after Zero G implied I was part of a liberal POV-pushing cabal, I wrote my first entry to this thread on 12:39, 20 July 2008. And I refrained from all the contentious comments you so quickly identify me with. Really, I maintain that my July 20 comment was a resonable and civil response to Zero G's comment, which called for a justification of my views. Then you (on Moreschi's talk page), Neon White, and Shell all jumped on me, basically supporting Zero G's accusation that my edits and views just reflect my being part of a POV-pushing cabal. I think when my good judgement has been so quickly dismissed it is fair that I ask why, and ask that the explanation be based on a thoughtful consideration of the substance of the dispute. As for my comments to you, I would just ask others to read them in the context of our earlier discussions rather than your misrepresentations. Be that as it may, the main purpose of my 20:37, 21 July 2008 was to clarify to MastCell and others that I had never called for a ban or block against Zero G. I also stated that while I did not like the way you and Shell are so quickly dismissive of my views, I do not view Zero G, you, or anyone else as an enemy. Somehow this triggered an outraged response from you. I am not going to sit here and parse my 21 July remark to figure out what kind of rhetoric is so outrageous to you, but I really am baffled as to clarifying that I do not support blocking someone is so provocative.

A final comment - you seem to think I am an example for others because i am an administrator. I find this reasoning anathema. And to be clear, Elonka, I am not insulting you, I am disagreeing with you. I think this one thing you wrote is wrong and dangerous, but that does not mean that I think you are a bad person or dangerous. I have no opinion about you personally, and I just assume that you have done good work here with good intentions. But you have written something - indeed, you have repeated it several times - and I think I have a right to explain why I believe it is wrong and dangerous. Misplaced Pages is a relatively anarchic community. It used to be more anarchic, and we realized we needed some structures to function, but always with some concern and regret about moving away from our original anarchic ideals. The ideal is simple: any one can edit, any time. There is no hierarchy here. No one is above anyone else. The only possible exceptions are Jimbo for legal reasons, and ArbCom in situationally specific ways as part of a dispute resolution (but not legislative) process. Administrators are certainly not above non-administrators. We are given certain tools that help us perform necessary maintenance on Misplaced Pages - we are like maids and janitors, servants of the community cleaning up messes. I hope some people are grateful for the many little chores we do but no one should look up to us simply because we are administrators. If anyone looks up to me, it should be for one reason, which is the same reason any editor should look up to any other editor, whether they have made 100,000 edits or five edits: they have done serious research and are making substantive contributions to the encyclopedia. I do not think Alun, for example, is an admin. And we have had big arguments - big, wopping nasty arguments. But I look up to him because I know he knows far more about genetics than I do, and he takes research seriously, and only makes edits that are consistent with his serious research and Misplaced Pages policies. In fact, we need more editors like Alun (and several others who have beeninvolved in the articles under discussion here) because the future of the encyclopedia depends on them ... and not on us admins. Editors, I ask all of you to look up to any other editor who is committed to serious research, as an example. No one at Misplaced Pages should be given more respect, or be looked up to more, than well-informed editors who comply with our policies to add well-researched verifiable and NPOV content to articles. If it is not clear already, these are the standards Ramdrake, MatchSci and others are defending. I look up to them because I value these standards. I hope it is clear now why anxieties about some thuggish cabal are misplaced. Slrubenstein | Talk 11:11, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

In a nutshell, all we're asking is that your defend it without the nasty personal attacks against people you disagree with and anyone else who happens to wander into your path. That's it - there's no hidden agenda against science, Misplaced Pages or productive editors in general, just a pretty simple request to tone it down. A request that someone be civil isn't the same as (or even similar to) supporting their opponent. Shell 12:42, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

Shell, then, please look at Zero g's first and second posts in this thread. Nobody's pointed out that these are indeed grievous personal attacks. I guess everyone here could learn from taking criticism, but when one side in a dispute is criticized in kind for their words, while the other side, making accusations that are just as grievous (and maybe more) are left to their own devices as if this sort of commentary was normal, some sense of one-sidedness seems to exsude from the exchange, wouldn't you say?--Ramdrake (talk) 12:59, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

Sorry, but I have gone over my 12:39, 20 July 2008 comment (my first comment here) several times and I just do not think it violates WP:CIV. My next comment is I agree more assertive, but still I do not think uncivil. Elonka argued that WP:FRINGE should not apply to this situation - a dangerous proposal in my mind because that could undermine NPOV which is our one non-negotiable policy; she also insisted that AfD is the appropriate solution to this conflict which, as Moreschi pointed out, takes some power away from the community and puts it into administrators' hands - a potentially dangerous proposal in my mind because we should always be very wary of concentrating power or authority among admins here at Misplaced Pages, concentrations of power undermine the wikicommunity. Ramdrake called attention to one editor who kep reverting a decision made through discussion on the talk page of an article. I think it is reasonable to ask admins to pay attention to a brewing revert war, but to say that the decision (merge two articles or not) should be left to admins rather than the community is at the very least curious if not alarming. And I asked Elonka to come clean about her own motives. I do not consider this uncivil. You and Elonka have and others have not simply asked me to be more civil. You and Elonka have challenged my motives and those of Ramdrake and others. Now, when an admin argues we should ignore a very important guideline (FRINGE) and also take from the community the right to make decisions about mergers and put it in the hands of admins, I do not think it is uncivil for me to ask what agenda these admins have. It doesn't seem to be about supporting policy, since in one case the proposal weakens a guideline and the other, a policy. It doesn't seem to be about encouraging community process, since it rejects a virtual consensus. I guess you will just keep claiming I am being uncivil for questioning your judgement. I sincerely apologize: I did mean to question your judgment; I did not mean to be uncivil. Slrubenstein | Talk 12:57, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

I'm not sure how this post by Alun (aka Wobble) makes him an editor to look up to. Misplaced Pages isn't a political platform where you edit solely based on an ideology or pre-conceived notion, which is what Alun seems to be about if his posts are an indication. Manipulation of the casual reader aside, I also don't think the praising of fellow cabal members is going to add much substance to this dispute. I would use a different word than cabal, but that is what it appears to be.

Regarding the claim of being great editors, take Ramdrake's edits for example, an astounding 40% of his edits are reverts or revert like in nature, 50% is talk page, and the remaining 10% of his edits are minor/copy edits. The other editors show similar patterns with more talk and less revert. I'm not sure how they believe they contribute - they certainly don't seem to add well referenced content, instead they prefer to remove it. --Zero g (talk) 13:14, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

Seriously Zero g, calling people a cabal and trying to minimalize the contributions of other editors isn't going to help you work out this dispute. I'm sure we've all said or done things we regret, but that does not make Alun anything less than a stellar contributor. Please stop. Shell 14:18, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

I'm well aware of this, I however, have given up any hope of ever editing productively alongside the core members of this group of editors (on the so called R&I articles), because they simply refuse to work toward a reasonable consensus. As some may have noticed, I've been phasing out my activities, and the recent AfD has shown me that the principles of Misplaced Pages only apply to non political and ideological articles - apparently the scientific evidence supporting the dysgenic hypothesis is too threatening to mainstream egalitarian convictions. So I'll take a short break and work on articles unrelated to heredity or psychometrics which should solve this particular dispute, hopefully without being wiki stalked. --Zero g (talk) 15:28, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

Where do you get that "40% of my edits are reverts"? The specific edit of mine you referred to removed a slew of differential fertility research papers which had been cited to support the dysgenic hypothesis, when they themselves never even mentioned dysgenics. As such, I just removed a whole bunch of OR. That's all. And if you think Alun's talk page comment was about ideology, it just goes to show you haven't read 90% of his comment, which is entirely about pure, hardcore science. Please, stop this. I'll assume good faith and won't accuse you of deliberately misrepresenting our edits, but in this case it looks like you're direly misinterpreting them at the very least.--Ramdrake (talk) 13:36, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

I checked your last 100 edits and there were 40 revert like edits. Regarding the removal of sourced content, the sources used the term dysgenic which is an adjective of dysgenics and was clearly used in that context in the sources - many of the sources even used dysgenic in the title. While you are correct the sources didn't use the term 'dysgenics' your removal of the sources on that basis... and now once again claiming to remove OR... well, I don't really know how to describe it other than calling it extremely tendentious. Hopefully it gives people an indication of how incredibly frustration it is to deal with this kind of behavior when trying to do some serious work on an article. --Zero g (talk) 14:37, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

Well, thank you for admitting that your numbers were made up by you. Also, looking at the article, a total of 18 references were removed, 15 of which did not contain any reference to "dysgenic" or "dysgenics" (which is why they were removed - their authors never inferred that their results suggested something like a "dysgenic trend" - and leaving them in would be OR). The last 3 were either already duplicated in the article, or were reintroduced. I won't push the insult to making the same ad hoc "analysis" on your edits as you did on my edits. Also, I would strongly suggest you just stop this line of attack, as Shell has already suggested; it won't get you anywhere.--Ramdrake (talk) 14:50, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

Five sources that directly addressed dysgenics in fact, and sources can be used more than once, so deleting sourced content of a previously used source doesn't make it any less disruptive. Nor were the other sources used to claim something the sources didn't state, they were used to add more context to the article and show the historical scientific interest and findings regarding intelligence and fertility.

Anyhow, I'm done with this. You're clearly much better at this than I am. --Zero g (talk) 15:10, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

Also just noticed that your "diff" is in fact hiding no less than 10 intermediate diffs of mine, which carefully explain why I did all the changes I did:

So, please be more careful next time you accuse people of "just reverting stuff".--Ramdrake (talk) 15:14, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

Elonka has made further remarks on her claimed "lynch mob" and "pov cabal" on Moreschi's talk page and has threatened to mount a case against them . I find it quite sad that, unlike Moreschi and most other administrators, Elonka seems unwilling to distinguish between established good faith editors like myself, who add mainspace encyclopedic content in a variety of different disciplines, mostly academic, and a single purpose account like that of Zero g, who since 2006 has only edited articles connected with eugenics. (To my knowledge I have only interacted with Zero g once on the talk page of Race and intelligence some time back over whether Richard Lynn was connected with the extreme right group American Renaissance, which is documented as having hosted talks by him.) It does not seem that Elonka has the support of the community in adopting such a maverick position, judging by the current state of the AfD page - as good a barometer as any of community opinion. BTW I am quite willing to wash my hands of making what have only been very occasional carefully sourced and neutral edits to articles related to Richard Lynn, if only to avoid getting entangled with single-purpose administrators like Elonka. Mathsci (talk) 10:13, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

Carol Spears IP edits

Carol Spears requested, on her user talk page, that an edit be made to the article Senecio vulgaris to undo an edit she had made earlier (before being banned/blocked). A single purpose single edit took care of this for Carol. I suspect this is Carol editing with an IP account and would like this checked, if appropriate.

It also revealed even more problems with Carol's edits. She apparently used herself as a source to insert nonsense into articles, this one back in February:

and one mention that perhaps it is distilled water which is harmful to laboratory animals and to human beings since every thing that drinks it inevitably dies.

1. Carol Spears. "Distilled Water, Just Say No!" (HTML). Retrieved 2008-02-05. All laboratory animals drink distilled water and they all die.

This nonsense edit was recently reverted by User:Cacycle as vandalism, although it had stood for a long time.

I request that arrangements be made for all of her major edits to be gutted, rather than allowing them to stand any longer on Misplaced Pages or requiring editors to spend hours checking this crap. Her crap should not be returned by search engines as sources on any subject. Preferably this could be done by a bot as I first suggested.

I won't be arguing this point or participating in this discussion if one occurs. There are too many supporters of Carol Spears' contributions willing to attack anyone who finds problems with her making stuff up to write articles on Misplaced Pages.

But it should not go down when her edits come back to mock Misplaced Pages in the press that no one knew what was going on. This is a notice about the potential for Misplaced Pages to look really bad for supporting Carol Spears as an editor and allowing her edits to stand without large scale reversion.

--Blechnic (talk) 00:48, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

I'm not sure if that IP is her, it's on a different ISP and in a different country to the last IP she used. I just removed two more links to Carol's webpage. One was a link to her chili recipe that that she added as an external link in the Sherzer Observatory‎ article and had been there for over a month. The other one was to a page that doesn't exist (404 error) on her site that she was using as a citation in the Annona cherimola. There's another ten or so links that show up on the Special: EL tool but they all seem to be on discussion pages. Sarah 06:29, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

More than likely it's (the single-edit IP) just someone who's seen the drama and forgotten to log in before fixing it. Orderinchaos 13:34, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

You are most probably right. I also saw her request and I made another change to that photo on that article right after that IP. --Enric Naval (talk) 14:40, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

Agree also. I doubt the IP is a proxy so I also doubt she is in the UK ATM since she lives in another Country. Also that cite above was added by Carol on the (8th Australian Time) Feb 2008. Bidgee (talk) 14:55, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

As an editor who was blocked and caused a lot of work for other editors to repair the damage I was amazed to see she is still editing. I agree with Blechnic and others, all of her edits should be removed immediately. A bot would be the easiest way I assume, that is if there is a bot programmed for this kind of work. She was given plenty of opportunity to help fix the massive amount of edits she did, and then did nothing to help with the clean up. Thus I feel the block should be enforced in full and any socks she is using should also be blocked. If necessary, her talk pages should also be blocked to stop her from interfering or trying to stay involved. If a bot cannot undo what she has already done, then can an administrator do a rollback on her account to remove her edits? I'm sure there are probably edits that she made that are acceptable but given there is so much that is not, I think removing her contributions completely would be the best. There are other knowledgeable editors that can add to the articles she has edited to get the information needed added. I endorse her block and feel block should continue and maybe even a community ban be considered from Misplaced Pages since her behavior has shown she sees nothing wrong with what she has done or is doing. --CrohnieGal 16:57, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

As the account is indef blocked and the user talkpage is not being used to request unblock or otherwise for appropriate purposes I feel it should be protected. I was also against the community ban, but given the subsequent actions by the editor I am no longer in a position to advise that I would unblock the editor should consensus allow me to. I think that there was one other sysop who was not willing to sign up for the community ban, and if that individual were to clarify their position we might open a brief discussion to formalise a ban. LessHeard vanU (talk) 22:01, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

I did express a willingness to undo my block, but sadly I've seen no sign on the talk page that she's prepared to play nicely. I think Misplaced Pages needs protecting from this editor - endorse ban proposal. EyeSerene 09:05, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

Proposed community ban of User:CarolSpears

Based on the above, User:CarolSpears is banned. I will update her userpage. Mangojuice 01:24, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

It's fair to say that this user fell on its surname. Baseball Bugs 07:27, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

What's next

Something still has to be done about her edits, in spite of her wish to "keep her edit history," it appears that there is not much she contributed outside of taxoboxes that is worth keeping. Particularly now that it has been shown her references don't contain the information, were misquoted, are gratuitous, or joke references to herself. What can be done about this? Can her edits be reverted with a bot in some way? Or what?

Also, about her talk page, while I appreciate that Privatemusings may want to chat with her, she is abusing her block by using her chat page to ask others to edit for her, and by making personal attacks. None of these are allowed uses of talk pages on Misplaced Pages. Also, if an editor had an account used only to chat with others on their talk page they would be warned, then blocked. This isn't the purpose of Misplaced Pages talk pages. Carol Spears can find a social networking page for this.

--Blechnic (talk) 19:02, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

I added a level 4 warning template for her latest personal attack on her talk page. This has also gone on long enough. Editors who enjoy her humor should make contact with her off Wiki to continue accessing it. --Blechnic (talk) 19:09, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

I have commented on your talkpage, and am watching it there. LessHeard vanU (talk) 20:09, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

Heh heh, yeah, that warning probably didn't achieve too much. I'd suggest full protecting the talk page and courtesy blanking it. --barneca (talk) 20:27, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

I'll concede that point. --Blechnic (talk) 20:49, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

67.180.38.172 (talk · contribs) Aaaaand, another IP sock. CarolSpears edits her talk page to complain about how an editor reverts a IP edit from 21 July . We can see that the same IP was used on 7 July (when Carol was already blocked) signing as "IP editing allowed" and announcing two templates on Commons where the only contributor was Carol . Had this been spotted already? --Enric Naval (talk) 21:37, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

I have since protected the talkpage, and now I have archived the content that was there (and I am watching that archive, and will protect that if necessary). LessHeard vanU (talk) 12:43, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

Another copyvio editor: wrong information, copyvios, broken links, spam links, bad geography, bad interpretions

I've been looking at some articles by User:Wilhelmina Will who is running a race for DYK and other awards on her vanity page. Her articles have tremendous problems, they're largely copied from single sources, generally blogs, they're factually incorrect, she mixes up geography (though on a lesser scale than a recently indeffed editor, New Mexico for California), the links are broken, they include spam links, she's copied wholesale from copyrighted internet sites. Check my edit history for some of the articles of hers I've had to edit and tag. I bring up the other example in this because, like CS, it appears that most of this editor's contribution should be removed from Misplaced Pages.

I assume, as usual, I will be attacked for this. But, it is nice to see that some editors care about quality on Misplaced Pages, though, and thank you to all those editors who did not feel it necessary in my case to shoot the messenger.

However, again, this is fair warning for when this comes back to haunt Misplaced Pages: this editor is copying material that already has copyrights, and having Misplaced Pages copyright it as Misplaced Pages material; she is creating articles that are wrong (like one article uses a source that is all about a turtle not being a crown group sea turtle, and she calls it a crown group sea turtle in the article, obviously not understanding the technical article at all); she is copying from blogs to build articles and sourcing them to the blogs, she is copying huge amounts of text from IMDb, etc., etc.

She appears, like CS, to have created hundreds, if not thousands of problem articles. I've only looked at ones that appeared on the main page in DYK. They are all bad in unacceptable ways. I have alerted the folks at DYK who will be watching her contributions more carefully to address this one issue. The other issue remains, what is to be done with her existing articles, potentially all of which are seriously problematic from the sampling I've taken?

--Blechnic (talk) 00:32, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

It's human to make mistakes. Fix them if you see them. Sceptre 00:34, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

That is not a helpful comment coming from you Will after you didthis - by fix do you mean removal? Cheers, Casliber (talk · contribs) 01:25, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

Every article she has created that I have looked at has mistakes in it. When I confronted her the first time she got belligerent. Should I review her hundreds and hundreds of articles and correct all of the errors, like the sea turtle article based on a misreading of the primary source she created? I've looked at half a dozen articles, all are almost completely useless for some reason. How about somebody find one article of hers that isn't completely useless, rather than have her continue to contribute wrong, copied, and bad articles? --Blechnic (talk) 00:38, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

Hi Blechnic - are all of her articles copyvio issues, or are a lot of them just cleanup problems? Fritzpoll (talk) 00:41, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

Her list of created articles is here. I note quite a few BLP articles in this mix, and there are several hundred of them. I only looked at a couple, and though they were not horrible, they weren't well sourced and there were at least minor errors in them. Both that I looked at quickly were borderline as to copyvio, so I can't answer that conclusively. I'm going to start working from the bottom up if someone else would like to start on some of the others. Risker (talk) 00:45, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

I'll start at the bottom of the list. Fritzpoll (talk) 00:50, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

(Edit conflict.) They all appear to be largely copied from various sources, although cleverly so, and some will debate me on this issue. Still there is enough copied to find which page she copies from with a simple and quick search. She does copy lists in their entirety, such as a huge list from IMDb. However, the bigger problem, as with CS, is that her use of technical literature is wrong. For example on the sea turtle article, Ctenochelys, she reads the abstract and says it "is considered to be a crown-group sea turtle," but the source she used is an article about it no longer being considered to be a crown group sea turtle, and in fact, it's not considered in the extant sea turtles where she plops it in her first sentence. She includes spam links. Nothing about the one reference in this article says anything about him being the director of all the soap operas. And her single sources are usually personal blogs of the person the article is about. It appears every article of hers that I have looked at has deep problems. I am tired of looking. Maybe she can clean them up herself.

Good start, Fritzpoll and Risker. She might be willing to learn how to do it properly, also. --Blechnic (talk) 00:52, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

The science articles are going to be the problem, if you don't know phylogeny something like someone saying it's a crown group when the article is about it no longer being considered one might not jump out at you. This whole article is so off, but so convoluted, I don't know what to do about it. I personally think Ctenochelys should just be deleted. --Blechnic (talk) 00:53, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

I'll let other admins respond to this one as well, but it depends on the scale of the problem - I'll see how many science articles there are. But I'm not sure what CSD criteria could apply Fritzpoll (talk) 00:58, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

Right, I got up as far as Morawanocetus from the bottom, and have made a note of the scientific articles on the way. I need to go to bed. Mostly so far, I have no direct copyvios, but some very poorly sourced articles. I suggest someone contact the author and offer to mentor her through the next month or so and to point out the lack of importance of DYK. She seems motivated, but in just the wrong direction at the moment. I hope she will reply here soon Fritzpoll (talk) 01:17, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

Does anyone remember the User:Orbicle case? This is how we handled it, with User:Gmaxwell's help. He queried the database for all new pages by the user, listed them in alphabetical order, and we had a team of about 10 (look at the page history) go through the list to check sources, and then we crossed them off when they were done. Some were copyvios which we re-wrote, others were fine as is. When there's a long list, this can be an efficient way to approach the problem.

Wilhelmina gets her articles from Articles for Creation. I haven't checked to see if she copies directly from there, but it is possible she does, assuming good faith on the part of the people who post there. I feel a certain responsibility here because I've been supportive of her efforts, have encouraged her, and she has often come to me for opinions about notability and sources -- but I haven't checked her work for copyright violations. Seeing as copyvios are a serious issue, I think we need to go through these, and of course if Wilhelmina herself would help that would be best of all. Thanks, Antandrus (talk) 01:31, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

I'm not an admin, but I agree, for what it's worth. Many seem to come from Articles for Creation, but created without actually reality-checking the proposal (for instance, Oaaa, where the source was one unverified answer at a Q&A site). The cryptozoology articles are pretty bad too - articles like Issie, Cressie and Batsquatch sourced from various personal and non-scholarly websites that well fail WP:V standards. Gordonofcartoon (talk) 01:40, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, she is a AFC regular. A bit of good faith is required here - she AGFed on the IPs being able to not copyvio or use unreliable sources. When I accept articles at AFC, I rarely deviate from the IP's submission. Sceptre 01:48, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

I'm not sure it's a good faith issue. I helped there for a while, and even assuming good faith all round, the practicality is that many (most, even) AFC proposals are by newcomers who've not gone through the small print of Unregistered users: Submitting an article, so it's wise to check the sources for copyright/reliability issues. Gordonofcartoon (talk) 03:05, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

You really can't afford to blindly accept AFC submissions. When I was helping out there I found that the largest majority of articles posted there were copyvios. I always double checked every article before I posted it and I would encourage others to do likewise - it only takes a couple of minutes to Google a couple of choice sentences. Sarah 07:49, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

Has she been notified of these proceedings? Beam 01:58, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

Yes, by a couple of editors on her talk page.

• Wilhelmina Will (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log)

--Blechnic (talk) 02:02, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

Has anyone alerted her to the exact problem with copyvio as well as the issue of writing poor articles? Beam 03:07, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

Having worked with/pseudo-mentored User:Wilhelmina Will on the Iggy Arbuckle pages, I'm inclined to think it was an honest mistake from not checking the AFCs before doing them. She does go overboard on the non-free images, but I think its just from a lack of full understanding of the policy, which some long term editors no longer always have a good grasp on due to the changes earlier this year. I think a more formal mentoring relationship would be very beneficial in helping correct these problems and help her become an even stronger as I've found her to be fairly open to corrections, willing to learn, and to have a desire to be a good editor. -- ] (] · ]) 07:25, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

In spite of the severity of the problem (factual inaccuracies, and admission on my talk page she doesn't understand the scientific article she wrote incorrectly, bum links, links to viruses, plagiarism, hostility in response when it's pointed out) I suspect this editor is worth working with. Please don't anyone underestimate the level of the problem with her existing articles, though. Underestimating the problem will not do her or Misplaced Pages any good. Maybe she could get some guidance and learning while fixing the problems she created. --Blechnic (talk) 15:08, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

Well, initially I agreed that while its a big problem, its fixable with some guidance. However, it seems like she is very deliberately ignoring all messages on her talk page and this report and continuing along with her usual edits. That, to me, does not bode well. -- ] (] · ]) 04:20, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

In all honesty, with Durova's comment below, and how long Carol Spears was allowed to go on even after it became apparent that something was seriously wrong with her contributions, probably just ignoring this and continuing to plagiarize and create misinformation is the way to go from the viewpoint of the one creating the problem.

Someone elsewhere said this would be the most effective means of vandalizing Misplaced Pages: getting a few other editors who support you, then just writing random crap all over the place. I agreed then, I see it even clearer now. Everyone can spot the Gawp's who can't handle (or find) their cocks, but it takes perserverence to deal with editors like this, and Wikipedians rather more to the former, than the work necessary to deal with the latter. Something needs to be done about all of her edits. Meanwhile, she's creating more. I looked at a few, they were just one line stubs, though I haven't looked at all.--Blechnic (talk) 18:57, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

Let's be more circumspect with real people's names

I've done something blockable: I've altered Blechnic's thread title and opening post above. I'm also invoking IAR; made the changes to partially redact a real person's name who is not involved in this thread and is referred to as a negative example. Let's remember that sort of thing can have a real world impact via Google hits, etc. If a username is Fuzzyduckling22 and has no real world connection to anybody, then turn it into a meme if you like. Please be more circumspect with real human names. Durova 10:08, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

I have no idea what is a real person's name or not on Misplaced Pages, and when editors use their real names they have already conceded to allowing a real world impact via Google.

It was an expedient way to make it clear what I was talking about--what is appearing to be a common editing style among plagiarizing editors: factual inaccuracies, sloppy links, gratuitous references, overall bad editing.

I don't have an issue with changing the title of a thread, though. Why would that be blockable? Don't answer! --Blechnic (talk) 15:04, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

What would really be better is if we treated copyright more seriously around here. After all, the Misplaced Pages community doesn't have the power to overrule real world legislation. If an editor is committing bright line copyright violations, he or she should get a limited number of warnings before an indefinite block. And then--as with legal threats--a retraction and pledge to stop creating problems should be necessary to get an unblock (with mentorship if needed). When we as a site treat the law less than seriously, we open the door to difficult editors making an open joke of it. That's a risk to the Foundation and to our site's credibility, and ultimately to the names of those difficult editors if they use their real names. Durova 04:00, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

I don't understand this lack of response to copyright violations and plagiarism. It stains everything Misplaced Pages has accomplished, imo, to see these little DYK articles with content copied and pasted from all over the web. This week was the first time I read all of the articles on a DYK and did not suspect a single one of a copyvio. This copyvio/plagiarism stains all of the hard work done by editors who write excellent articles, by editors who use sources properly, by editors who contribute to featured articles and good articles (the ones without copyvios, that is). Yet editors continue to attack me for pointing these problems out. These issues put Misplaced Pages in ugly company. Do the big print encyclopedias plagiarize hundreds and hundreds of pages off of the web (to Carol Spears alone, and, now, it appears the same to Wilhelmina Will--this is just two editors)?

Yes, it attacks Misplaced Pages's credibility, and it makes it harder to justify contributing, and it stains the hard work of good editors by pulling them down into the cesspool.

And these bad editors are the ones who are going to draw attention and headlines, like that guy who lied about being a Ph.D. What's so bad about saying you have a Ph.D. in comparison to saying the words are your own when they're not?--Blechnic (talk) 18:52, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

User:XxJoshuaxX page moves

Would someone care to check out what appears to be disruptive editing from this user in moving pages based on faulty premises? Check the talk page for examples, specifically moving articles on books, films and songs with "Over" in the title to pages with a small "o" in the word "over", contravening the actual titles. Ed Fitzgerald (unfutz) 06:23, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

I hate to say it, but this editor operates more like a vandal, wikilawyering, quoting MoS to suit purposes, and working entirely against consensus. FWiW Bzuk (talk) 06:37, 21 July 2008 (UTC).

Isn't this the same guy as Big T.V. Fan? If so he just changed his username last week after way overstepping the bounds of . I had to file a CheckUser even. JBsupreme (talk) 06:39, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

Same guy. Ed Fitzgerald (unfutz) 07:15, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

An indefinite block is in order in that case. Chafford (talk) 07:47, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

So, is someone going to implement it? --Steven J. Anderson (talk) 12:38, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

On second thought, this was a legitimate renaming of an account, not sockpuppetry. Still the page moves he's doing are absurd. --Steven J. Anderson (talk) 12:40, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

Can some admin be bold and undo the editor's page moves? Ed Fitzgerald (unfutz) 13:06, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

Moved the Cuckoo's Nest novel, play & films back. Do we have consensus for a block here, or would a severe warning be enough? I'm leaning towards block myself, given the consistent disruptive editing and accompanying incivility... EyeSerene 13:19, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

Judging by the MO established, I would first favour a "highly descriptive" warning before resorting to the ACME hammer. FWiW, I think this is a very young person who probably is well-meaning but then again, his actions are highly problematic... Bzuk (talk) 15:26, 21 July 2008 (UTC).

I moved those pages because "over" is a presposition. XxJoshuaxX (talk) 15:39, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

However, when dealing with the title of someone else's work or the name of another entity, it should be rendered according to their intent, including any grammar, spelling, punctuation, or capitalization errors. Or perhaps the article on the hit song should be He Is Not Heavy. He is My Brother. And the article for the toy giant should be Toys Are We! --Jaysweet (talk) 15:56, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

Oh,I get it now. XxJoshuaxX (talk) 15:57, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

But I feel like a total idiot now. XxJoshuaxX (talk) 15:59, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

(out)Someone to Watch over Me (film) still needs to be moved back to Someone to Watch Over Me (film), as does the disambiguation page Someone to Watch over Me and all the pages linked on it, all of which have been moved to pages with small "o"s in "over". Ed Fitzgerald (unfutz) 16:10, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

Sorry, thought I'd got them all. Done. Any more I've missed? EyeSerene 16:37, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

Looking at the editor's history, there are a number of other moves which may be problematic, if they followed the same procedure of elevating grammar and Misplaced Pages naming conventions over the actual titles of things, but most of the rest of them involve songs and musical artists I'm not particularly familiar with, so someone else will need to evaluate the moves. In the meantime, I hope the editor takes to heart the lesson here not to override the names of things, and to initiate some discussion before making potentially contentious page moves. Ed Fitzgerald (unfutz) 17:09, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

Yup, I went through many of them earlier, but didn't have the time to go too far back. If someone else wants to have a look...? EyeSerene 17:37, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

(out)I'm concerned that User:XxJoshuaxX is still doing numerous page moves, some of which seem pretty dicey on the face of it. I think it would be a good idea for an admin to take a close look at his edits and give him some advice. It might be a good idea for him to hold back from doing page moves for a while. Ed Fitzgerald (unfutz) 04:58, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

And now another editor has moved the "Someone to Watch Over Me" articles back to "Someone to Watch over Me". This is really ridiculous, can't some admin do something about this? Ed Fitzgerald (unfutz) 06:52, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

I've moved them back and fixed the redirects. It looks like a simple misunderstanding - no big deal ;) EyeSerene 08:10, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

analysis and suggestion for administrative action

Actually, after saying above that he got what was problematic with his moves, he made only two moves, and both seem correct, but he gives wrong reasons for them:

• He moved Who's The Boss (album) to Who's the Boss (album) saying that it's because "the" is an article, but he should have said that it was because the original title of the work uses "the" uncapitalized.

Sorry about that one,if I could edit my summary,I would. XxJoshuaxX (talk) 01:57, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

• He moved T.O.S. (Terminate on Sight) to T.O.S (Terminate on Sight), removing the dot after "S" saying that there is no dot on the cover, but the cover doesn't have dots, but asterisks. Also, it's obviously an acronym of the title, and acronyms do have a final dot. Amazon uses the dot , and so do all sites selling the products (see 4 links at the end of this page). Of the 10 music reviews linked on the infobox, 6 say "T.O.S." with final dot (including 2 print magazines), 2 don't use the acronym (HipHopDX and DefSounds) and 2 use "T.O.S" without final dot (B-inside and G-Blender), however B-inside liks to the amazon page with a final dot. Their official page spells the title without the final dot, so that move was also correct.

Yes the cover uses stars,but stars are prohibited,so we use dots instead in this case. And even if it's acronyms,the actual title surpresses that. XxJoshuaxX (talk) 01:57, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

So, please some admin undo the T.O.S. move and then leave a warning on XxJoshuaxX's talk page to not make more moves, and instead just suggest them on the talk pages so other editors can check them and make them if they agree. provide better rationales for his moves. --Enric Naval (talk) 01:37, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

My move of T.O.S. was correct,per my above explanation. XxJoshuaxX (talk) 01:57, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

Joshua, I replied at Talk:T.O.S_(Terminate_on_Sight)#final_dot_on_title, as this is more a content dispute. --Enric Naval (talk) 03:15, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

Possibly disruptive image tagging

This post is in reference to recent mass tagging of images for deletion by User:OsamaK. I've tried to talk it over with him here but he seems impervious to my line of argument so perhaps I can hear a wider range of views on here (plus those images are set to be deleted soon, so there's a sense of urgency to this).

The idea is simple: we all agree sources should be provided for images, but I believe, and OsamaK doesn't, that there are some common-sense exceptions to that rule, mainly involving old (say pre-1923) images uploaded years ago when the rules were more lax. Take, for instance, this one. The subject died 201 years ago. The sketch was uploaded five years ago by someone inactive for over a year. It's not readily accessible on the Internet. Can't we presume PD?? Or how about this one? The photo is at least 115 years old, and is from Russia, where anything is PD if the author died before 1953, which is almost certainly the case. There are many other examples among the images tagged by OsamaK. The problem is he has a rather extreme view on the subject: afraid of "forgery, deception and lack of confidence", he will ask that any unsourced image be deleted, regardless of "when uploaded, when taken, when died". I find this stance narrow-minded and disruptive in that it threatens to rob us of many undoubtedly PD images. Perhaps some intervention could rescue them. Biruitorul 22:17, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

Sigh... It has been discussed so many times before. See HERE, for instance. --Ghirla 07:00, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

Definitely disruptive, these images are clearly PD, regardless of their lack of sourcing. Someone with automation tools needs to undo these tags, which should never have been placed. Losing all these images will be detrimental to the project. Ed Fitzgerald (unfutz) 06:18, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

How to discus while you undoing my edits?--OsamaK 12:16, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

I'm so sorry, I have to undo all of your undoing. Stop now!--OsamaK 14:56, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

The first couple I checked, I don't think it's disruptive, I think it's a fair cop. No matter the age of an image, it still needs a proper source, and those items didn't have one. No image comes from thin air. Maybe threatening to delete in 7 days is a bit much, but the rules are what they are. Baseball Bugs 07:02, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, George Dawe will rise from the dead to sue Jimbo and Misplaced Pages over Image:Aleksey Arakcheyev.jpg. You are free to believe this, but please don't flood my talk page with this useless clutter and loud deletion threats. --Ghirla 07:11, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

Not likely, but you still need to provide a source. I've been told this many times about images regardless of their age. Maybe it came from a website, maybe from a book; but wherever, it did not come from thin air, it had to come from someplace. You need to provide a source. Baseball Bugs 07:24, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

No, you don't need a source in that sense. You do need enough information (author or publication) to verify public domain status, though, and being really old isn't enough. If someone was born in 1840, took a photo in the U.S. at the age of 10, never published it, and died at the age of 100, we have an 1850 photo that's copyrighted until 2010. --NE2 08:28, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

OK, but really, how likely is that? At some point (pre-1900?) we ought to err on the side of assuming PD. Requesting source information is fine, but threatening to delete within a week when they've sat there for 4-5 years with no problems is rather counterproductive. Biruitorul 14:38, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

You know, I stopped arguing with these guys after they deleted the equivalent of Image:Rembrandt Harmensz. van Rijn 058.jpg because "the uploader needs to prove that it is a rembrandt" and not the work of a modern forger. I suddenly realized that browsing the web archives for a website where I had found the image years ago was not worth the effort: they will still find something to torment me with, say, that the attribution of Rembrandt paintings is highly uncertain, or that a reproduction may not reflect the original color scheme quite faithfully, or something else. In short, I can't prove that it is a rembrandt to someone who is determined to expose what a cheat I am. Let them have their way. I still firmly believe that the activity aimed at sourcing=deleting obvious (and in many cases hard-to-find) PD-art stuff is detrimental to the encyclopaedia. --Ghirla 09:17, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

extreme view. I'm sorry to hear that. I'm not a copyright extremist. I (and many others) just read Misplaced Pages image policies and try to apply it. Simply, because it is our interest. Well, if Mr. Biruitorul ,or anyone else, think that image source policy has to change, I'll discus, and I may agree for better image hosting, but it is not my job! I think currently policy is fair enough. It is ugly to say: "a troll", "extreme view" or "Definitely disruptive". It is not my mistake when I try to apply Misplaced Pages policy.--OsamaK 12:16, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

Just to clarify, I never accused you of trolling. Biruitorul 14:38, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

Right, you did not.--OsamaK 14:56, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

The problem is that documentations tell us to note you by default. It is easier to skip you and others, and tag image page only. Once, I had a problem in Wikimedia Commons, I filled some inactive user talk pages with these notes, which makes my browsing so slower. I taught about skipping all user talk pages. After few days, an user undid all of my edits and my hard work lost! For that reason, I note all users. Read this documentation for more.--OsamaK 12:16, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

If an image is so old it's OBVIOUSLY and UNDENIABLY in the public domain (say, photos of people that weren't alive at any time when a copyright would still be valid), no source for the image is needed. It's trivial. Doesn't matter where it come from, no matter how or when it's public domain. Tagging countless images we have a perfect right to use to be deleted based upon stubborn kneejerk adherence to a policy just adds countless hours of work for people to go through and try to fix them all for no good reason, assuming they get caught before deletion. Blind adherence to a pointless policy when someone knows that it's considered bad behavior is not even an attempt at good faith anymore, it's just being stubborn. If OsamaK wants to help Misplaced Pages he'll voluntarily stop doing these things. If not I think he should be temporarily blocked so he gets the idea that what he's doing is wrong. DreamGuy (talk) 15:48, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

you cannot say that yourself. you cannot even block me for a minute or less. you cannot reexplain the clear policy to be compatible with your view. People in everywhere delete unsourced images since image policy created; here, in Arabic Misplaced Pages, and in Wikimedia Commons (at least). Please be civil.--OsamaK 18:58, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

Moved from seperate section below

Ed Fitzgerald doesn't stop removing my image tags without discussion or even change the default edit summary. I asked him three times (one, two, three) to stop doing that, and he didn't respond and still redoing. last moment he undid Image:AR Sevier Ambrose.jpg and Image:Apelles.jpg. I want someone note him to stop doing that for last time until the end of discussion above.--OsamaK 16:28, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

Lookin' at his contribs, that looks unhealthily like stalking. It's only in the last 50 or so edits, so it's not a major problem right now, but I'll go have a word with him. Cheers. --lifebaka (talk - contribs) 16:41, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

I've moved this section up into the main thread from a seperate section below. The problem is that this editor is tagging obviously PD images because they are in technical violation of a absolutist reading of policy, and if they are not untagged, they will be deleted, at a detriment to the project. The editor has had this explained to him, and continues in his actions, so no edit summary is necessary on each seperate revert which, because I do not have automation, I am doing by hand. Ed Fitzgerald (unfutz) 16:51, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

I suggest a copy-paste edit summary, then; it'd be rather easy to hit tab after editing then paste it in. Cheers. --lifebaka (talk - contribs) 16:56, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

OK, will do. Ed Fitzgerald (unfutz) 16:58, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

This is just one side. I'm talk about losing my time without discussion! We have a week to get a solution.--OsamaK 17:01, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

There's no need to wait a whole week if a solution is presented before then. SWik78 (talk • contribs) 17:07, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

There's been discussion -- just look above. Your actions may be in strict adherence to a dogmatic reading of policy, but they're not helpful to ther project. You really should stop and help to undo the tagging you've done so far. Ed Fitzgerald (unfutz) 17:09, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

But there is no one! He is removing my long time tagging, he is ignoring and breaking above discussion! He is explaining the policy as his personally view to it and trying to impose it on others? Note: I stop tagging ages ago!--OsamaK 17:25, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

You say you stopped tagging ages ago but, actually, I see that you reverted Ed's removal of your tags about an hour ago: . SWik78 (talk • contribs) 17:31, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

I didn't mean ages. Last new tag was this one, on 19:30, 21 July 200.--OsamaK 18:05, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

Oh man. You're losing your time, I noted you many and many times, I stopped tagging last 36 hours at least: I'll undo all of your undoing.. If any admin wants to take an action, (s)he should review his edit first. This is a stupid game.--OsamaK 07:20, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

Yes, it is a stupid and disruptive game and you're playing it. Consensus here is clearly against you, and yet you continue to waste the time of a number of editors by reverting. Since you seem to be unable or uninterested in discussing the issues (as opposed to complaining about other's actions), and you've now upped the ante by using Twinkle, the only solution may be for an admin to block you. Ed Fitzgerald (unfutz) 13:29, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

:). I asked you many and many times to stop it. I'm not here for playing. You will not put the ball in my court, I have more comments there than you, Can not I discus? So, in your view, you can undo all of my edits with invalid reason, but I cannot restore them. Are you kidding? --OsamaK 13:39, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

Comment by alnokta

Jello,

Can we please get over with this issue? I don't see any harmful behavior by Osama here. he is just following the current policy, whether you like it or not. you should be thanking him for applying the policy not blame him. any image needs a source, how hard is that? if you don't like the tagging, provide sources, search the web and provide sources. or the other way around, go change the image policy regarding sources for public domain images. stop the game of reverting please.--Alnokta (talk) 18:51, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

fair enough :)--OsamaK 19:30, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

Please see WP:IAR. Yes, sources for images are crucial. But when a picture is obviously PD, we do ourselves a disservice by deleting it and not simply requesting a source. There's no legal benefit to be derived (since no one is going to sue), and no ethical one either (since the copyright has almost certainly expired). Biruitorul 20:28, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

Could you please read WP:IAR?#What "Ignore all rules" does not mean?--OsamaK 01:45, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

That's an essay, not policy. And anyway, since strict interpretation of the source requirement is in this narrow instance (obviously PD images) a hindrance to improving/maintaining Misplaced Pages, we can safely ignore it. Biruitorul 01:55, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

I saw that. but the question is: Who governs successfully of politics? Anyways, I think we're in a loop!--OsamaK 02:10, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

Blatant edit warring

OsamaK has now reinserted a tag on Image:AndrewSterett.jpeg for the sixth time since July 17. Argue respectfulness towards WP:3RR all you want but this is blatant revert/edit warring. If it wasn't disruptive before, it most definitely is now. SWik78 (talk • contribs) 13:45, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

This is so unfair. Let me be honest, before undoing the tag there, I reread WP:3RR to check if my restore is legal or not (Is 3rd or 4th illegal?). The policy says clearly: "An editor must not perform more than three reverts". For that reason, I restored it last time.--OsamaK 13:53, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

Since it's under discussion here, and it's obviously controversial, I'd strongly recommend not tagging at all until the issue is resolved. You're essentially telling everyone here trying to discuss the matter that it doesn't matter what they say, you'll continue to edit in a manner considered disruptive by some here. And that's a problem. UltraExactZZ ~ Evidence 13:57, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

It is simple as 1-2-3. Stop undoing, Stop tagging; I stopped tagging since 19 July (Lazy to check), but Ed doesn't care about that. There is no stopping unilaterally, and if so, this is unfair.--OsamaK 14:02, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

It's not unfair. If you read my comments carefully, you will see that I conceded that you did not breach 3RR but I do consider your reversions on the above mentioned image as constituting an edit war. 3RR does not need to be breached to constitute an edit war. And also, I think it's very condescending to other involved users to continually argue semantics about how you stopped tagging 3 days ago when you're still restoring the tags that were removed after you. There is no difference between adding a tag for the first time and hitting the "undo" button after someone removes your tag. You need to stop re-adding those tags until someone here starts agreeing with you. SWik78 (talk • contribs) 14:12, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

Again, We're in loop. It is unfair, because I didn't start it. and what about Alnokta, who agrees with me? I believe that there is no AIR with copyrights issues, and then, no one should restore my edits before ending of discus because he is ignoring rules (Wow!), they even want to block me as a troll, becuase they ignore rules!--OsamaK 14:58, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

We're only in a loop because you refuse to recognize the absurdity of your actions. Under your theory, your tags would remain in place while discussion takes place, until, finally, the clock ticks down and the images are deleted -- this is ridiculous on its face. In fact, the proper procedure, since your tagging is conroversial, is for the original status quo ante (meaning the images in untagged condition) to be preserved while the discussion proceeds. If the discussion goes in your favor, then you can reapply the tags, and the images will be deleted. In fact, though, with one exception, the discussion is going against both your actions and the necessity or advisability of your tags. Ed Fitzgerald (unfutz) 15:15, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

Breaking tagging every time, everywhere is a well known story. Dear Ed. If you really want to change, open an issue, write a 'bata' policy and it may applied.--OsamaK 15:33, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

With the Tschaikovsky picture, it's indeed possible that a 20-year-old photographer in the 1890s could have been alive late enough to renew the copyright. For the Sterret picture, though, it's not physically possible for a copyright to be in force. Hence, tagging it is disruptive.--SarekOfVulcan (talk) 15:23, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

I'd also like to point out that in his latest round of mass reversions (using Twinkle), the editor has accused those who are removing his unwarranted tags of breeching WP:POINT. Of course, no "point" is being made here. What is happening is that editors are attempting to prevent useful images from being lost to the project. Ed Fitzgerald (unfutz) 15:43, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

It wasn't using Twinkle, it was using my own script. Anyways (let me skip POINT issue), Let us have a cup of tea in #wikipedia-en. Could you come there?--OsamaK 16:24, 23 July 2008 (UTC):

I don't do IRC. Ed Fitzgerald (unfutz) 16:59, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

Ignorance of Misplaced Pages rules, slanderous and diffamatory statements

Ignorance of Misplaced Pages rules, slanderous and diffamatory statements, inncludig by admins ignoring the matter and blocking me without any justification, whereas I request to apply the Digwuren restriction to the User:Biruitorul... Please explain whether the below mentioned is in acordance with Misplaced Pages rules. I do not see any point of editing or contributing to Misplaced Pages, when users like User:Biruitorul under cover of contributing to some other articles, clearly ignore basic written well established Misplaced Pages rules while editing most articles related to Moldova, inlcuding basic unwritten civility rules, backed by ignorant or the "would be" ignorant admins, violating the very same rules they are expected to enforce, this following Biruitorul's backstage discussion with the admin. How technically possiby can I be blocked by filing a request to enforce the Digwuren arbitration restriction against another user? Is Misplaced Pages really turning into a POV supported absurdity?--Moldopodo 23:09, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

HERE IS THE WHOLE STORY

OK, so where's the beef? Biruitorul 23:33, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

Moldopodo, you were not blocked for filing a request, you were blocked for your racism, your ranting, your edit warring and your failure to get the point with, well, everything and anything. Whether others warrant a block has nothing to do with your block, which was fully justified. J Milburn (talk) 00:05, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

J Milburn, your prevous statement is a classical example of slanderous statements. None of what you say is true, more than that - it is a lie and you do not even address all the numerous diffs and explanations I have provided on my talk page.--Moldopodo 22:31, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

Frankly, I find talking to you and pointing out why I believe you are wrong about as fun, interesting and useful as stabbing forks into my eyes. As such, I am not going to go through the motions of requesting that you shut up and actually do something useful, nor am I going to be pedantic and point that you are actually talking about libel, not slander, and that people are even less likely to take you seriously when you are wrong. What do you want done? Blocking all these nasty evil slanderous people? It's ironic that in this report you haven't provided a single diff, when your arguments on why you should be unblocked tend to revolve entirely (over the course of about eight pages) on how no one has shown you any diffs. And what are you talking about, I haven't read your essays and reviewed your diffs? I don't have to do that, and I don't see any point in doing so anyway. J Milburn (talk) 23:01, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

Please review my actions at Overspending

Can someone please review my actions at Overspending (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views), in particular in relation to this thread on the talk page: Talk:Overspending#Primary_source_is_outdated. I plan to disengage, so as to ensure I don't violate 3RR, but would like other admin's opinions as to whether I've already crossed (the spirit of) that line. --ZimZalaBim 00:17, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

I left a note for User:Colonel Warden that this discussion is taking place, and suggested he wait for a consensus on the article Talk before removing the {{Out of date}} tag again. Your willingness to disengage from editing the article for a while will be helpful here. The quality of this article seems disappointing, and it would be hard to argue with a WP:DRV nomination to review the closure of the recent AfD. (It was a speedy Keep, closed in less than 8 hours by a non-admin, without meeting the criteria for speedy keep in my opinion). Nothing wrong with you proposing the DRV since you were the AfD nominator, if you choose that option. EdJohnston (talk) 05:03, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

• User:ZimZalaBim has added no content to the article in question and seems to be causing this disruption out of pique relating to another AFD. Since his behaviour seems to be stalking, it is well that he should withdraw. As for the article, I shall continue to work upon it as the fancy takes me since no-one else is doing so. Removing tags is quite proper in the course of such work since that is their purpose: to provoke edits which address the issue. In my most recent edit, I:

• added a source which was more recent than the disputed source
• provided some historical context to show that overspending is not a new phenonemon and so does not require an exclusively contemporary treatment.

Colonel Warden (talk) 06:35, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

Again, Colonel, please WP:AGF. Thanks. --ZimZalaBim 16:44, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

User:Italicus is ignoring the issue

Italicus appears to be one of many sockpuppets—a series of IPs and a couple of accounts.

I responded today by notifying all of the accounts of the report for suspected sock puppets, but 201.67.241.178 probably noticed and went ahead with the same thing (here we go again).

When that IP was blocked today, Italicus simply continued in doing the same thing. I don't think that I can deal with this for ten whole days. What should I do??? ~ Troy (talk) 02:14, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

I have blocked Italicus for continuing the edit war. Kevin (talk) 02:40, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

Alright ...if something happens before the sock puppetry is confirmed, I might need some help. This situation is not quite what I'm used to, although it has been months now. ~ Troy (talk) 16:03, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

User:Polly.White and, now, User:Pamela.Hale

Polly.White, hoaxer previously discussed here (Misplaced Pages:Administrators'_noticeboard/IncidentArchive449#User Space) appears to have returned as Pamela.Hale - recreating the same hoax article (The Romance Kiss, Misplaced Pages:Articles_for_deletion/The_Romance_Kiss), creating a near identical user page (Polly.White's is currently deleted and SALTed), and having the same, unusual, period between names.

Polly.White is nearing final vandalism warning and has a SALTed user page, so this looks like fairly simple sock puppetry - but there might be more to it. Polly.White appeared to be a merely a minor who liked to include herself in fantasy articles (both users specified their birthdate showing them to be 10). But as at least one of these user names is now clearly not the real name and the reason for creating the fantasy articles is less obvious. Does this sockpuppetry and vandalism which is not purely deluded vanity sound like the work of a 10 year old? Ros0709 (talk) 06:11, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

I'm not sure. Are you thinking an adult pretending to be a child? Perhaps as a trap? I've blocked Pamela Hale as a sock and am tempted to indefblock Polly White too. Theresa Knott | The otter sank 06:53, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

Yes - perhaps not as a trap, but possibly because editors reviewing contributions may look more favourably upon a ten year old girl than they would anyone else. Ros0709 (talk) 08:47, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

I should add - my point immediately above was that the reason for such deceipt (if such it is) could be trivial and pretty harmless; I am not making any grave accusation about the motives, but it seems clear to me the authors' bios are not entirely plausible. Ros0709 (talk) 19:13, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

Negligent reverts

User:Baseball Card Guy has made numerous reverts to pages in which he has made quite a few errors. I had corrected a number of problems with regard to data as well as notability and image violations. I have given warning here. I have also tried to discuss the issues here. It does not appear to me the individual is interested in correct and verifiable information. I have previously asked the individual not to make frivolous reverts out of spite. Libro0 (talk) 06:25, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

Please explain the errors, or how are we to know that they really are errors? Theresa Knott | The otter sank 06:42, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

There seems to be an ongoing argument between these two over technicalities about the articles in question. Baseball Bugs 06:53, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

If you look at the bottom of 1980 Topps for example, you will see a source cited. This book contains all of the data for the listed sets. This individual has a habit of undoing my edits frequently and in so doing has made mistakes. The sizes are listed in # x # inches. They are from the source in fractions. He changed them to decimals and in the process of redoing them all, had slipped up on a few. This also goes for errors made in quantity(of cards) of a given set. I have also had to clean up spelling and grammar that he refuses to allow me to correct. It has become clear to me that he does not have any of the source material. Libro0 (talk) 06:58, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

Are you two the only ones editing those articles, or can you recruit help from others who also have an interest in the subject? Baseball Bugs 07:19, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

I had considered this but here is the problem: Misplaced Pages:Suspected sock puppets/I Hate CAPTCHAS, Misplaced Pages:Suspected sock puppets/Bolly Nickers, Misplaced Pages:Suspected sock puppets/Baseball Card Guy. Furthermore, it is a children's hobby and thus attracts the younger crowd. When I said that I did it as a 'scholarly pursuit' I was laughed at. Nevertheless, I stand by the fact that I did it to introduce both a notable company with roots in a popular hobby and the national pastime to the encyclopedia, and I did by providing verifiable material with sources that are considered the industry standard. The pages are not 'for me' or 'to my liking'. They were designed with wikipedia policy in mind. I would greatly appreciate assistance with these pages without the trouble of sock puppets or people wanting to decorate it with 'all their favorites'. This is not a selfish pursuit but I feel that for the above individual, it is. When I make the articles, I have the reader in mind. Libro0 (talk) 08:11, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

On July 20 I made a number of edits. On the 22nd he reverted all of them and had no grounds for such action. This is clearly a personal attack. I have tried to work with him but all he does is work against me. Libro0 (talk) 19:00, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

I was in the process of expanding the pages and Baseball Card Guy is impeding that progress. I expect that any more edits I make will meet with an immediate revert by him. I don't believe he has anything constructive to add to the project. His goal appears to be to prevent me from contributing. Libro0 (talk) 05:04, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

Proposed conditional unban of User:Rms125a@hotmail.com

No consensus to unblock. Ncmvocalist (talk) 06:28, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

This request may come as a surprise to those who have followed my admin actions over the last few months (such as in this log), but I'd like to propose a conditional unban of RMS. He first came on my radar a few months back as a banned editor who was routinely editing the encyclopedia. I truly believe that a ban is a ban and took it upon myself to enforce it to the best of my ability: blocking his socks, deleting articles he created while banned under CSD G5, and undoing virtually all of his edits. In fact, I think I have been even harsher in enforcing the ban than my fellow admins User:SirFozzie and User:Alison, whose long history with him predates my arrival on the scene.
Let me be clear in my request that he get a second chance that I do firmly believe that RMS has behaved quite badly in the past, see here and here for evidence of a deserved block and ban. However, I believe enough time has passed, and that he has made enough solid, encyclopedic contributions in the interim to warrant a strictly supervised conditional unban.
While I have been the number 1 RMS hunter around here in recent months (he referred to me as his 'nemesis' via email!), I'm happy to transition this role into the number 1 RMS supervisor. I've made myself incredibly clear that I have no qualms about strictly enforcing a ban around here, and have strongly impressed upon RMS that this is a one-strike, you're out deal. I will also be tracking him in my usual thorough manner to ensure compliance with the terms of his unbanning, and I will swiftly and firmly act in case of non-compliance. He has assured me that he will follow the guidelines laid out for him, as he has no desire to further see his hard work systematically wiped away from the encyclopedia by yours truly. He has been very cooperative and disclosed all of his unblocked accounts. He has agreed to all the terms of his conditional unban. I hope you'll consider this proposal to be of low potential cost and high potential gain.

Proposed terms

I have laid out the proposed terms of the unban here for your perusal, inspired by and borrowed from similar unbannings for User:Rootology and User:Vintagekits and incorporating the Arbcom ruling on The Troubles. These terms were a collaboration between User:Alison and myself.

Examples of his contributions

Articles created: Colin Woodroffe (geographer), Maude Storey, Stephen Fullarton, Nydia Westman, Dora Gordine, Robert McMordie, Kindred McLeary, Mari Fitzduff, Berta Scharrer, Sanford Palay, Ruth apRoberts, JuJu Chang, Colin Rankin, Patricia Bergquist, Felicity Peake, Tamsyn Imison, Jonancy, Kentucky, Tonieville, Kentucky, Aideen O'Kelly, Nicholas Candy, Florin Krasniqi
Deleted created articles (admins only): William Bulfin, Gordon MacWhinney, David Thornley (Irish politician), Arthur 'Robbie' Burns, Robin Livingstone, Mary Barbara Bailey, Shara L. Aranoff, Anita Brenner
Recent edits to the encyclopedia: 1, 2, 3. 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15

Thanks for your consideration. I will block all of his recently disclosed accounts and restore his articles created under his ban should this be acceptable to the community. ~Eliz81 07:23, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

Comment from Alison

Hi all. I'm User:Alison and I've been dealing with Robert Sieger (aka RMS) on and off for something like three years now. I've endorsed no less than two community bans of this character and have probably blocked more socks than anybody else on WP; it's literally been hundreds and hundreds and I've just given up even tagging them at this stage, there have been just sooo many. RMS has written quite disparagingly about me on Daniel Brandt's site amongst others. He had a reputation for being an extreme Unionist and anti-Catholic, anti-Irish POV-pusher and no Troubles article was safe from his interference and bigotry.

Back two years ago, RMS was a huge liability to the Misplaced Pages community and many hours were wasted by many folks in cleaning up and dealing with him. But along the way, something changed. He was always a wikignome, always interested in biographical articles and early 20th century actors and actresses. His attentions started moving away from Troubles-related articles to his favourite topics where he actually did a lot of really good work; adding facts, tidying articles and finding references, etc. The fact of the matter is that Robert is helplessly wiki-addicted (and self-confessed, to boot :) ) and just loves contributing to the project. As time passed, as I discovered RMS socks, I'd block them procedurally - half-heartedly - and apologize in the block log! I hadn't the heart to rollback his edits, and as time went by it just got sillier and sillier. RMS would ditch the account and immediately move on to another. It's All About The Editing, and he just loves contributing.

I'd like to endorse Eliz81's proposal to unban Robert, though under some clearly defined conditions, similiar to those proposed in Vintagekits' case;

• Robert will edit from one account and one account only.
• He will initially be placed under a three-month topic ban regarding all Troubles-related articles.
• When that expires, he will be subject to another three month's restrictions under the Troubles Arbcom probation conditions.
• A mentor will be appointed from the WP community, similar to the Sarah777 case. This mentor should be chosen by the community. If the community wishes, I'll gladly assist.

I expect there to be a number of voices of dissent here - especially from the Nationalist side of the Troubles dealings, but I sincerely believe that Robert has reformed and put all that behind him. I've been in extensive email contact over the space of two years and can see the change in him. Without going into too many personal details, he had a number of issues some years back which contributed to his problems on-wiki, but these have been long-since resolved. In closing, though I've campaigned strongly in the past for his ban, I've also gone full-circle and am now sticking my neck out and calling for his unban.

It high time that Robert came in from the cold - Alison 07:23, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

In addition, I'd like to point out that if RMS decides to renege on his word here, I'll be very happy to banninate his ass from WP and block his future socks with impunity. He's definitely in the Last Chance Saloon - Alison 07:45, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

I think Tom Mix would give this the nod, so I will too ;) Gwen Gale (talk) 08:21, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

I would be more willing to support an unblock if he had gone several more months without any socks, but I trust Eliz and Alison's judgement on this (and the ease to reblock should he slip up in any way), I'll weak support this SirFozzie (talk) 08:49, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

This all seems very sensible and gracious. I'm with SirFozzie on this. Synergy 09:02, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

Absolutely not, no, not under any circumstances ever. This mainspace edit alone where he pipes to my userpage describing me as a "Irish fifth columnists and republican supporters" and makes various other disgraceful accusations should mean this editor should never be unbanned. 2 lines of K₃₀₃ 09:48, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

I've got to agree here. Regardless of his positive contributions, if he upsets just 1 other user what are we gaining? his hatred has probably upset more than one user and non-contributors as well if any of them saw his behaviour. We have all kinds of wikignomes that are here, have been here, and will come in the future. There is no reason to extend further chances to a bigot.--Crossmr (talk) 10:04, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

I admire the fact that both Alison and Eliz81 have contributed extensively to this and particularly in the terms of probation that 'he will be banned if there is a violation of the conditions' laid out there. However, with comments like those linked by One Night in Hackney, I have serious doubts as to whether this effort is in vain. Its relatively recent and if we lose one good editor for the sake of giving another chance to someone who is already banned, the former wins again and again. Rudget (logs) 10:09, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

Arbitrary Break - Responses to above statements etc (RMS125a)

I support this action and similar actions 100%. Past civility infractions should not come before future potential gain. To the people who are too personally involved to see the good that could come of this, I'm sorry, get over it. Beam 10:38, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

• Question: I know zero zilch nada about this case, so consider this either a useless uninformed view, or a valuable fresh outside view, your choice. But based only on what I read above, why is the topic ban so short? If the problem is massive past misbehavior on the topic, and his latest contribs have been wikignoming on other topics, why not a 1 year topic ban, and a similar 1 year ban on interacting with people he's fought with in the past? If he plans to get back into Troubles-related editing after 3 months, I'd say it isn't worth the risk; if not, then a longer topic ban shouldn't be a problem, and I'd welcome his help in all other areas. --barneca (talk) 10:48, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

  Rephrasing: I oppose this unless the topic ban and interaction ban are extended to one year, or until someone gives me a good reason why doing so is a bad idea. If they are extended, I support. I understand and have weighed Durova's points below, but think they aren't a deal-breaker. I wish I could explain why now, but I have to go; assuming this hasn't been resolved before I return, I may comment on Durova's reasonable position later. --barneca (talk) 12:45, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

  I have no personal stake in this, perhaps you should read WP:AGF before you slam other editors opinion. This is the first I've read of it and I find it disgusting that anyone is remotely considering giving this person another chance given what they did.--Crossmr (talk) 14:25, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

  You either placed this comment in the wrong place, or misread what I wrote. I'm not slamming anyone's opinion. --barneca (talk) 16:28, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

  However, I now strongly oppose this; I thought the diff provided by ONIH was a over a year old, but it was only 3 months ago. The characterization that he is now wikignoming on unrelated subjects doesn't appear to be correct. --barneca (talk) 16:41, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

• Oppose on principle. Under the best of conditions it is difficult to persuade sitebanned editors to refrain from socking; it is an exceedingly bad idea to propose rewards for that behavior. Higher up on this very page we have just concluded a community ban on a prolific editor whose plagiarism, copyright violation, and misuse of sources are so pervasive that every edit she has made may need to be reverted. She has started to sock, she is threatening to sock more, it is likely she is reading that thread, and may be reading this one. That person does not benefit from a mixed message. Others like her do not benefit from a mixed message. We are not so badly in need of one more wikignome. Tell RMS125a to sit on the sidelines. If he or she does that without socking for six months I'll open the unban proposal myself. Not this way, though. Absolutely not this way. Durova 10:52, 22 July 2008 (UTC)
  • What? But this editor apparently contributes good stuff, not copyvio garbage, self referencing bullshit. The only thing being rewarded here is good editing, good contributions, and honesty about past infractions. Beam 10:58, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

• Bullshit. I can cope with incivility towards me on talk pages, user talk pages, wiki pages, but I object to in in the strongest possible terms when I am attacked in article space. If that is what you call "good editing, good contributions", then your opinion is worthless. 2 lines of K₃₀₃ 11:05, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

This is what I meant by "personally involved." The editor in questions, according to two well respected administrators (both who were attacked mind you), say that he is such a positive to the project they are willing to overlook it. Whereas you, instead of being so gracious, attacked me because I even suggested getting over your personal issues. Nice. Beam 11:21, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

• Hackney, I agree with your argument; it would be more persuasive without the distracting epithet. Beam, the point of my argument is that this proposal turns WP:SOCK on its ear, and sends precisely the wrong message to an entire population of banned users. This conversation does not take place in a vest pocket universe in which RMS125a's ban status is of no interest to anybody else. Banned editors read our noticeboards, banned editors use Google, banned editors network with other banned editors. And perhaps you think we can reward one person's ban-evading sockpuppeteering without that influencing any other banned editor, but I don't. Even those who propose this unblock are dubious it would succeed; I think in the larger picture it's a bad idea to try at all. Some other way, certainly. I hope to have the pleasure of giving RMS125a the resilient barnstar someday, but I refuse to validate this socking. Durova 11:28, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

Beam: There's very personal issues between ONiH and RMS. I was there for a while with him, blocking RMS's socks. I had to think long and hard about even the weakest support involved here. I understand where Hack's anger is coming from. I do understand Durova's point about that how are we to believe that he'll follow his rules when he's been breaking them left and right. My thoughts are.. what harm does it get to unblock, if he screws up, he's gone again permanently, and if he has improved, then the encyclopedia benefits. That, the ease of any action that needs to be taken, and my faith in Alison and Eliz's judgement is the reason why I did support. SirFozzie (talk) 11:31, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

That's my point. At most they suffer one more attack, and then that's it for atleast a while. Can they not take that risk for the good of the 'pedia? Beam 11:40, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

When someone's been attacked as much as ONiH has (you've seen the edit above where RMS sneaks an attack on ONIH into article space, right?), and done as much work to keep RMS off WP, I think we should give ONIH a little extra wiggle room. I know he's upset, he's made it clear to me how upset he is, and there's part of me that doesn't blame him at all. Jumping down his throat doesn't help discussion, really. SirFozzie (talk) 11:53, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

Beam, I firmly believe the interests of Misplaced Pages are better served by retaining the ban at this time. At most we gain a wikignome. We have plenty of those already, and none carry the downsides this one would. Durova 11:56, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

I disagree. I believe personal feelings are getting in the way of judgment. Per Alison and Eliz, who both are offering to watch and monitor the situation, I see no reason not to let him give it a go, a one strike you're out type deal. But, of course, I wasn't insulted by this person.Beam 11:58, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

What a strange supposition; I have zero history in this conflict and I have a consistent record of opposing similar unblock proposals for the identical reasons. Durova 12:35, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

I wasn't saying you had a personal problem, I was referring to someone else, but the logic behind my post, positive contributions, stand to you as well. Beam 12:53, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

Administrators are not superhuman beings, they are human like everyone else and make mistakes. On this occasion I believe they are making a huge mistake, and believe me I've made plenty myself including one I regret very much. However ArbCom recommended this editor should be "banned by acclamation", and that was well before his subsequent community ban. You've got an editor who's banned for prolific sockpuppetry (considering they stopped being tagged ages ago an exact number isn't known, probably around a thousand socks now), POV editing and attacks on other editors. The prolific sockpuppetry has never stopped, and my one diff shows he's prepared to make gross POV edits to an encyclopedia article that attack the CRE, Irish people and another editor all with one edit. Regardless of who he attacks, anyone prepared to do that should not be permitted to edit this encyclopedia, and I'd argue that even if he hadn't attacked me with the edit in question, and I can find you plenty more diffs where he attacks other people too. Couple that with the fact he did it while he was already banned, and it's a no brainer - this person should not be unbanned under any circumstances. Everything he was banned for he's still been doing. 2 lines of K₃₀₃ 12:39, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

(undent)Everyone makes mistakes. Beam 12:53, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

Some people drop a spoon by mistake. This person is a proven bigot who harassed entire nations of people. Sorry, but given the choice between the two users, I don't want that person on this encyclopedia.--Crossmr (talk) 14:25, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

It is interesing that you support banning someone who watermarks images indefinitely , and yet someone who harasses and abuses other editor and had multiple prior chances should be allowed back in? That certainly seems rather polar...--Crossmr (talk) 15:00, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

• I endorse the unblock. –BuickCenturyDriver 11:08, 22 July 2008 (UTC)
• If we keep him on a short leash, then fine. Sceptre 13:41, 22 July 2008 (UTC)
• Support. Willing to trust Alison and Eliz81 on this one. - TexasAndroid (talk) 13:59, 22 July 2008 (UTC)
• "Mistakes". 300+ recorded sockpuppets; I'm sure even more that were blocked and not tagged as his socks. "He has been very cooperative and disclosed all of his unblocked accounts". How are we to know this? I certainly won't oppose it if the community wishes to take this risk, but all the email I've received from rms125a (and there's been plenty; he's been begging for reinstatement for a long time) has been devoid of understanding of what he actually did to betray our trust (as opposed to our civility standards.) --jpgordon 15:18, 22 July 2008 (UTC)
• Oppose in the strongest possible terms. The link provided above by Hackney is more than enough proof of the attitude of hatred still evinced by RMS. Durova's point is well taken that getting RMS back and, at the same time, losing Hackney is no gain for the project whatever, and is, in fact, a net loss. Beam's argument that those who have been insulted and defamed by RMS in the past should "get over it" is decidedly ignorant. Helpful contributors should never be asked to suck it up and get over it because we want to give a serial vandalizer and edit-warrior "one more chance." No, no, and never! ---RepublicanJacobite_{The'FortyFive'} 15:24, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

No sir, not ignorance. I won't fill this space with much more of my opinion but you are more than welcome to come to my talk page for further details. Beam 16:15, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

• We're seriously considering an unban of someone who's used literally hundreds of recorded socks, has been incivil to other users, and has shown no indication that he actually gets what he was blocked those couple hundred times for? *checks outside* Did I step into Bizarro World or something? Strong oppose, as per Jpgordon, ONIH and RepublicanJacobite. We really need to consider the message we're sending by unblocking obvious problem editors. Tony Fox (arf!) 16:02, 22 July 2008 (UTC)
• Oppose Jacobite put it well. Using an article to make a cheap shot at someone is right out of line and is not an isolated incident. I also agree that Beamathan asking the insulted to "get over it" is in very poor taste, this sort of dismissive attitude to behavior that drives off good editors is really counter to our goals. Chillum 16:04, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

My taste is quite rich. :) If the editors haven't been driven off now, than what's one last chance? Beam 16:15, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

• That is just the thing, I don't want to risk good editors so we can allow abusive ones yet another chance. I would rather keep the civil users, and let the ones that cannot play well with others go elsewhere. Also, for all you know editors have been driven off by this user. Chillum 16:26, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

• Oppose, per the appalling history. I greatly admire the resilience and goodwill of the editors who are willing to unblock, but I can't see any benefit to Misplaced Pages from having this person on the site in any shape or form. EyeSerene 16:24, 22 July 2008 (UTC)
• I'll stick my neck out here and support this for two reasons: first, he seems to have demonstrated a willingness to stay away form the articles where he caused trouble, and a genuine willingness to help elsewhere; second, Alison is watching him and will presumably step in if he moves outside the boundaries indicated. Let's see what happens, but apply a zero-tolerance approach. Guy (Help!) 16:29, 22 July 2008 (UTC)
• Oppose Having had to deal with their trolling, motivated only, as they were by a desire to be disruptive I find it difficult to understand why we are even having this discussion. --Domer48_'fenian' 17:21, 22 July 2008 (UTC)
• Oppose If he wants to come back, he can show respect for community rules by not socking for a few months. If he doesn't have enough self-control to do this, then he doesn't have enough self-control to be a productive editor. - Merzbow (talk) 17:29, 22 July 2008 (UTC)
• Oppose in the strongest ways possible. This guy evaded a ban, sockpuppeted, and made an extremely personal attack in article space three months ago. What would we be rewarding here? For the last few days, ANI seems full of proposals to bring back blocked and banned editors who've made personal attacks and harassed, all without considering the feelings of their victims. I'm a bit worried that in bending over backwards to reform the trouble-makers, we're losing responsible editors because we're not bothering to protect them. Dayewalker (talk) 21:18, 22 July 2008 (UTC)
• Support per Guy. The ban will be much easier to reinstate than it is to overturn, and I see no reason to believe that Alison or Eliz81 would be reluctant to reinstate the block. The conditions are appropriate, and fairly easily enforced. Risk worth taking. Sarcasticidealist (talk) 00:33, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

  Bigotry against other users is never a risk worth taking.--Crossmr (talk) 03:55, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

• Oppose Per jpgordon and Durova, this seems like a depressingly bad idea. Socking isn't the way to regain our trust and if, based on jpgordon's comment, this user in private correspondence hasn't recognized his own failings, that's a deal killer. --B (talk) 01:19, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

Alison and Eliz say different, deal fixed? Beam 04:01, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

Well, presumably Alison wasn't cc'd on emails that jpgordon received. The statements by Alison and jpgordon are not mutually exclusive. I trust and respect Alison's judgment, but on this, I disagree with her. --B (talk) 05:49, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

No consensus to unblock

I think it is becoming clear that a consensus to unblock this user has not, and is not likely to form. Chillum 04:12, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

Well ... what Chillum says, really. There's a pretty clear consensus here that unblocking at this time, even with restrictive conditions, is not a Good Thing. What I'm getting out of this, however, is that Robert has to demonstrate to the community his sincerity and his desire for reform by not socking on WP from here onwards. If he can do that, and he will be closely monitored (trust me!), then we can consider bringing it back up here in a few - no less than three, IMO - months time. If he indulges in socking or disruption/attacks of any sort in the meantime, he can go look to someone else for his unblock request.

In short; the community demands more and, while I disagree with the concept of 'serving time', it's what people want and I'm obliged to uphold that view, as indeed I will.

As an aside, I personally feel that the Unionist representation on WP has been largely decimated over the last few months. From a Troubles ArbCom perspective, that has left the encyclopedia rather skewed as Nationalist editors far outweigh and outnumber the others. Robert, of course, is a staunch Unionist. As is Astrotrain. And Counter-revolutionary. And Mark Thomas. And David Lauder and his merry band of sock-puppets. All gone now. Something I've not mentioned before here is that my own family background is split around Nationalist/Unionist lines and this lends a certain perspective.

Either way, I think we can all agree that the community has spoken here and that Robert is not to be unblocked at this time. Thanks for your patience and consideration, and apologies to those above who feel hurt that it was ever brought up in the first place - Alison 04:31, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

• My problem with this whole thing is that I keep going back and looking at the email conversation I had with him in the last week. Essentially, he says to the arbitration committee that all those sockpuppets were because he no choice, and the vote stacking was because he had no choice. This strikes me as a lack of restraint and judgment, and a disclaimer of personal responsibility. If you can educate him, his promises to behave will seem much less hollow; as it stands, a promise to behave without an understanding of what constitutes misbehavior isn't credible. --jpgordon 04:40, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
  • True indeed, Josh, and I'm taking that point away from this, too. His emails to myself and Eliz speak somewhat differently but being forced to votestack, whatever about socking - nope. I'll see what I can do ... - Alison 04:46, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

User:Gene Poole

Not seeing what admins can do here. An unfortunate case where two good editors are in conflict over something extremely trivial, and at least one of them is saying things they really shouldn't. WP:CIVIL is policy. Orderinchaos 13:30, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

Gene Poole (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) has continued with the uncivil insults and will not remove the comments made yet remove mine. If this user is allowed to continue to insult me and left those comments up then that leave a message out there saying it's ok to insult of other editors. Bidgee (talk) 07:24, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

I added a note that I've posted this here and they call my notice as trolling Bidgee (talk) 07:29, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

Basically, the user "Hey, you, out of the..." Gene Poole, is unhappy about this article being nominated for deletion, and is spending his time baiting other editors instead of actually working on improving the article, i.e. on finding reliable sources. Maybe a good word from an admin would get Poole refocused. Baseball Bugs 07:41, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

Aww FFS. This does not require admin intervention, unless Baseball Bugs and Bidgee are somehow compelled to look at Gene's page. Gene's being a prat, but he's also being needled at home. Go find something else to do, please, everyone. - brenneman 07:47, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

As an Admin you should know better then what you said above (and here) and know that the comments made by User:Gene Poole are uncivil not matter where it's posted, Do you have a personal problem with me? Bidgee (talk) 07:54, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

Get over yourself. This is a bilateral problem of baiting and biting. Either bury the hatchet or walk away, but don't come here looking for people to take sides because you might not like the side they take. Guy (Help!) 08:59, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

This is not about sides but it's to do with insults and it seem JzG it's ok for a user to call someone stupid and an idiot which is wrong and you fail as an Admin since they user broke Wiki's policys. I could careless if the list that I put up for deletion is safe. As of now I'm will no longer be an editor on here since the Admin (Aaron Brenneman) refuses to remove the statements made by Gene Poole. So it seems to be ok of users to insult and for Admins to leave the insults and have ago at the victim. The way it's going editors will see insults as ok which is the wrong path for Wiki as a project to take. Bidgee (talk) 09:06, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

Don't let the door hit you on the way out. --Gene_poole (talk) 09:09, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

That didn't help either. But I am pig sick of people who come here bitching about the reaction their actions provoke, and refuse to admit any fault whatsoever. It's rare that any issue like this is wholly the fault of one side. Guy (Help!) 10:48, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

The two editors need to leave each other alone and work on proving or disproving that the article in question should be deleted. As I've told them. And also warned Poole that calling people "idiots" enough times is a blockable offense, unless the standards have relaxed in the last year or so. Baseball Bugs 07:51, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

I have respect for both editors from past dealings, and I'd say Baseball Bugs's advice immediately above has merit. AfD can be an emotionally fraught area, I avoid it for weeks at a time for that reason. Orderinchaos 13:28, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

The unfortunate result here is that failure to take any action on the civility policy implicitly states that calling other editors "idiots" is OK. I was once blocked for doing that. Has the level of civility worsened so much in the last year that "idiots" is now considered to be an insult only on the order of "you silly pudding"? Baseball Bugs 14:40, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

Bugs, if they are being idiots, then there really isn't a problem. But actually what's happened here is a dispute which has escalated over time to the point of insults, and to treat that as a problem of only one side is wrong on several levels. Guy (Help!) 16:19, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

I don't see the overall problem as one sided. And I offered the complaining editor what I thought was good advice, and he ignored it. There's only so much we can do. If I were an admin, I would have blocked the both of them for a day or so and let them think about things. Whatever. Baseball Bugs 16:24, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

Personal abuse and disruptive behaviour by Tenmei

Tenmei (talk · contribs) has been engaging in personal abuse and disruptive behaviour on the Hyūga class helicopter destroyer article and I would appreciate it if an uninvolved admin could please review this issue and take appropriate action. To summarise a long story, he has inserted text which describes these ships as aircraft carriers and is disrupting efforts to replace this with text which captures the ambiguity over the ships' classification (the Japanese government and some sources says that they are destroyers, other sources say they are helicopter carriers and other sources say they're aircraft carriers). As is shown on Talk:Hyūga class helicopter destroyer, he has not explained the rationale for his opposition to including this text despite repeated requests from other editors, but has instead responded with a string of personal attacks on pretty much all the involved editors (for instance: , , , , (note also the rejection of the process which used to develop the consensus text in this diff and the statement that he stood aside and waited for the discussion to be complete so he could restart the discussion again, along with further personal attacks), and ). He has been warned about making personnal attacks several times (, , and ) but they are continuing. As is clear on the talk page Tenmei was invited to explain his opposition to calling the ships anything other than carriers, but did not do so, and was invited to participate in drafting a consensus paragraph which discusses the disagreement over the ships' classification but did not participate in this discussion. Instead, a week after the discussion was completed and shortly after I added the consensus text to the article he is now demanding that the consensus on the need to discuss the ambiguity over the ships' classification be overturned and the discussion be restarted from square one (I would be happy to provide diffs for this, but it's probably easier and more meaningful to review the article's talk page directly to get a flavour for the discussion). He is still declining to provide a reason for this, however, and is continuing to make personal attacks. I believe that this behaviour is in violation of WP:CIVIL, WP:AGF and WP:POINT and would appreciate it if an admin could please issue an appropriate sanction. Thank you. Nick Dowling (talk) 10:47, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

It certainly doesn't help that Tenmei uses strong language, but I don't see it as being grossly uncivil. Until he goes around throwing insults at editors, I doubt a civility block would be in order. However, I have fully protected Hyūga class helicopter destroyer due to the dispute, and issues should be worked out on the talk page now. Cheers. --lifebaka (talk - contribs) 11:54, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

I don't see Tenmei's comments as particularly uncivil, though if he's causing offence, he needs to rethink the way he expresses himself. Not just for that reason though... I gave up reading eventually. Talk about wading through treacle - strongly recommend he reads WP:TLDR. EyeSerene 12:15, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

Thank you for the responses, including protecting the page. As the edit war there is pretty slow paced and the smallish number of edits have been spread across several editors, I think that it is the nature of the discussion on the talk page which most requires intervention. I consider the comments which I've posted diffs to above to be highly rude and constitute personal attacks given the consistant complete lack of any assumption of good faith - instead there appears to be an assumption that everyone has an agenda which they're pushing other than a desire to improve the article. All requests to Tenmai that he explain his concerns and participate in resolving the dispute have been met with uncivil responses, and warnings against his behavior have had no effect. As such, I don't see how it's possible to work out the issues on the talk page as Tenmai is not willing to discuss them. Given that the behaviour has been continuing for over a week now (including a very lengthy cool down period while I waited to see if he had any comments on the consensus text before inserting it in the article) I think that external intervention is required. Nick Dowling (talk) 12:29, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

I would recommend the dispute resolution process. Stifle (talk) 14:16, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

Thank you for that response. Most of the points on that process have now been tried, however. I will continue to discuss this dispute on the article's talk page, where hopefully this can be resolved. Nick Dowling (talk) 11:35, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

I do sympathise with your difficulties there - there's no doubt that he's disputing the consensus reached on the talk page, although I don't really understand what he's continuing to argue against, since you've mentioned the naming issues in the article. He's been warned over the reverting; that's currently not a problem now the page is protected, and if it continues once protection is lifted then a block from an uninvolved admin should follow. Maybe just ignoring him might be the best option for now? EyeSerene 11:55, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

Lawrencoma's identity theft

This user User:Lawrencoma has very recently created a similar user name to my own (as well as copying my user page) to evade previous banning for sockpuppetry as well as to continue their disruptive edits to the Al Anbar Governorate and Ramadi articles. I think this user has already been banned previously under the names of Hisham 5ZX, Hisham100 and Shihab20 as well as a number of IP addresses in Haifa, Israel. Following the ban, he created Hisham600 and the new Lawrencoma.

• Supporting evidence:

Here is the diff for the most disruptive edit to the Al Anbar Governorate article:

I also think that our respective user pages is clear evidence of a breach, not to mention identity theft. It should also be noted that I always include an edit summary in my edits - this user clearly does not.

Please move this to the correct page if I have made a mistake. Lawrencema (talk) 14:19, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

I've blanked the userpage because it seems like impersonation and left a message on the users talk page asking him to change username. Cheers. --lifebaka (talk - contribs) 15:24, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

This would be reasonable if the similar names were a coincidence, but they aren't. A deliberate impersonator should be blocked outright. — CharlotteWebb 17:07, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

User changed names, so I think everything's good here. Cheers. --lifebaka (talk - contribs) 18:06, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

Banned user User:Encyclopedist appears to be back again...

..and using IP 76.107.120.142 (talk • contribs • deleted contribs • blacklist hits • AbuseLog • what links to user page • COIBot • Spamcheck • count • block log • x-wiki • Edit filter search • WHOIS • RDNS • tracert • robtex.com • StopForumSpam • Google • AboutUs • Project HoneyPot) to vandalize and possibly impersonate another user... Though, oddly, the user name he signs there appears to have never been used for actual edits and just forwards to another account... that might need to be cleaned up, checked for a sock or something. DreamGuy (talk) 14:57, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

Kill with fire. Encyclopedist should never be allowed to edit, given what he's done to other users. Sceptre 15:13, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

Not sure what's up with User:OMEN. There doesn't appear to be an account there. I'd suggest deleting the page and User talk:OMEN, and having a word with Ulises Heureaux. Cheers. --lifebaka (talk - contribs) 15:15, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

Uhh... now that's odd. User:NOVO-REI also redirects to that same account, and the account (under the various aliases it used) has at several points expressed a major interest in Encyclopedist (listing him as a missing Wikipedians, asking other editors who the guy was) and has also been accused in the past of being very similar to him (uploading gun-related images that violate copyrights, etc.). Way back in the day, Encyclopedist (even before he became Encyclopedist, as old DBraceyRules or something like that) would frequently sign some other user name to his post and forward them. This looks possibly like an old unidentified sock of his. DreamGuy (talk) 15:38, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

NOVO-REI is a rename, so that one's kosher. Also, upon further investigation OMEN was created by Ulises but just doesn't show in the logs in a way that I recognized. So, besides the IP everything's kosher here. Cheers. --lifebaka (talk - contribs) 16:36, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

I find this doubtful in the extreme that this is Encyclopedist, given that 'pedist is in Florida by his own admission and that the above IP traces to Vermont. It's known to a number of people that Encyclopedist came back briefly and that he may have been using the Ulises Heureaux account. However, in all this, an editor known as JtV/Johnny the Vandal/the Italian Vandal impersonated Encyclopedist rather successfully for over a year and was basically responsible for almost all the Encyclopedist "sightings" of 2007. His modus operandi is that he'll impersonate anyone else, so long as people believe it. Recently, on a number of other wikis, User:NOVO-REI was created on a number of other wikis and Checkuser determined that this was actually JtV up to his usual tricks. So, while I'm not sure if the above IP is JtV, it's hardly likely to be Encycopedist, IMO - Alison 04:37, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

"Howard Gotlieb Archival Research Center" again

Special:Contributions/128.197.130.249

I posted something about this in the past. This IP is going through this list of people and adding "His/her papers are housed at the Howard Gotlieb Archival Research Center at Boston University." to the articles about the people.

This is, at best, a completely inconsequential detail and unsuitable for an encyclopedic article. At worst, due to the sheer size of the list of people, there is no way it would be physically possible for one institution to house the papers of all those people. Can an administrator issue a warning to the IP, and can I have an endorsement to go through and rollback the IP's contributions? J.delanoy_adds 15:30, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

• Rolled back and blocked 24h pending some explanation as to why it is relevant, or any kind of acknowledgement fomr the user that what he is doing is disputed. Guy (Help!) 16:08, 22 July 2008 (UTC)
  • It's an odd one. It does look like good-faith editing, but I certainly take issue with adding such a generic comment to all those articles. From a quick browse of your external link above, 'papers' in some cases means a single letter or similar. Since the IP is now blocked, I think given the unhelpful and misleading nature of the sentence, rolling back the edits is fine. If the IP wants to add more specific information in future though... EyeSerene 16:13, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

In case anyone's interested, the previous occurance of this issue that J. delanoy mentioned happened with 128.197.130.145 (talk · contribs) on July 11. SWik78 (talk • contribs) 16:22, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

Isn't this the second time the same thing has occurred? Corvus cornix_talk 16:37, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

Ah, yes: http://en.wikipedia.org/Special:Contributions/128.197.130.145 Corvus cornix_talk 16:38, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

Urmph. I see SWik78 beat me to it. Sorry.  :) Corvus cornix_talk 16:57, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

No worries. SWik78 (talk • contribs) 17:10, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

User:MagdelenaDiArco

User:MagdelenaDiArco has apparently been confirmed by Checkuser to be a sock of banned user Fone4My (on June 26). Fone4My is permanently blocked for abusive use of sock puppets since July 1. Isn't MDA supposed to be blocked as well then? --Anonymous44 (talk) 17:46, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

• Comment The same user has been causing havock at the page Maltese language (see discussion page) and has been attacking other users. After the revelation of the user being a sockpuppet, the edit history shows close to 100 edits that look strange to me, all related to the sockpuppet case . JdeJ (talk) 17:57, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

I'm simply labelling the sockpuppets of User:Giovanni Giove as such, based on the links you gave me. I am not a sockpuppet of Giovanni Giove. MagdelenaDiArco (talk) 18:02, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

It appears that Fone4My is blocked, not banned. Just an FYI. Cheers. --lifebaka (talk - contribs) 18:09, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

Right, but most of his sock puppets are blocked (indeed blocking someone as a punitive measure without blocking his known socks makes little sense), so I was wondering if the exception was intentional or accidental. Or is MdA supposed to be Fone4My's better self?--Anonymous44 (talk) 18:34, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

I don't understand this. I am NOT Giovanni Giove. MagdelenaDiArco (talk) 18:38, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

I went to block MagdelenaDiArco but Ddstretch (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA) got there first. So, naturally, I endorse that block.
Magdelena has tagged a large number of users as sockpuppets of Giovanni Giove. These taggings are incorrect and I am about to rollback the lot. Interested parties are invited to examine the so-called "proof" here - I am familliar with Giove and none of those pages confirm any sockpuppetry by him (some don't mention Giovanni Giove at all, while one or two actually clear him of any sockpuppetry charges). – Steel 19:02, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

Phil Sandifer

I started a new page which Phil (rightly) identifed as needing more work - of course -but wrongly immediately started a deletion process on. Since then, despite modifications, he has been repeatedly seeking its deletion, without changing his arguments at all... this looks like prejudice. But more blatent is he has evidently followed my edit history and attempted to 'undo' my other edits: as his 'history' shows

• 14:22, 22 July 2008 (hist) (diff) Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/'101' as a teaching method for Philosophy‎ (→the comments on the new version, 'Teaching Methods in Philosophy' are here) (top) (attacks me)

These 3 edits are nothing to do with me

• 13:39, 21 July 2008 (hist) (diff) Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject Doctor Who‎ (→Determining companions)
• 02:02, 21 July 2008 (hist) (diff) Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject Doctor Who‎ (→Determining companions)
• 01:38, 21 July 2008 (hist) (diff) Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject Doctor Who‎ (→Determining companions)

then:

• 01:29, 21 July 2008 (hist) (diff) The Dictionary of Fashionable Nonsense: A Guide for Edgy People‎ (I disagree.) (attacks me)
• 01:28, 21 July 2008 (hist) (diff) Why Truth Matters‎ (I disagree.) (attacks me)
• 22:55, 20 July 2008 (hist) (diff) User talk:Docmartincohen‎ (→MfD nomination of User:Docmartincohen/Wikipropaganda and manipulation) (attacks me)
• 22:54, 20 July 2008 (hist) (diff) Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Log/2008 July 20‎ ({subst:afd3|pg='101' as a teaching method for Philosophy}}) (top)(attacks me)
• 22:54, 20 July 2008 (hist) (diff) Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Log/2008 July 20‎ ({subst:afd3|pg='101' as a teaching method for Philosophy}})(attacks me)
• 22:53, 20 July 2008 (hist) (diff) N Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/'101' as a teaching method for Philosophy‎ (←​Created page with '{{subst:afd2|pg=Incidents|cat=U|text=Article, created by User:Docmartincohen, talks heavily of Martin Cohen's work on the subject, making it pretty c...') (attacks me)
• 22:52 20 July 2008 (hist) (diff) Teaching methods in Philosophy‎ (attacks me)

Phil might be right to disagree on all this! That is a content issue... But my complaint is that he has followed my edit history to disagree and reverse my activities. This seems to be 'wikistalking' not legitimate editing.

I suggest he be warned or blocked...

Docmartincohen (talk) 17:48, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

Could you provide links or diffs, please? It is very difficult to judge things without being able to see it. Cheers. --lifebaka (talk - contribs) 18:11, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

Researched it myself. We're talking about this AfD of this page (note that it was moved after the discussion began). --lifebaka (talk - contribs) 18:14, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

This is ridiculous. I went through and looked at some of the edits he cites, and removing a pair of tags (which Phil did on two of the listed edits) is not a personal attack, nor is all of the stuff regarding the addition of the AFD tag. While the discussion at the AFD may be considered a personal attack (I disagree with that interpretation), Phil is unquestionably correct that there is a serious CoI issue here, and it could be construed as self-promotion. Horologium (talk) 18:18, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

Wonderful, that's exactly right. Phil hasn't done anything wrong here, hasn't attacked you, and generally doesn't appear to have done anything but make you angry. This isn't the place to try to get him blocked, especially under false pretenses. The people who comment here generally do their research, and the "history" you've provided shows nothing you're accusing him of. I suggest you keep any issues you have with him off-wiki. --lifebaka (talk - contribs) 18:29, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

There is an established understanding that concerns about an editor's behavior are properly followed up by a trawl through the editor's edit history. I had some concerns, looked deeper, and found some things that I felt required some action. Phil Sandifer (talk) 19:04, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

Makes sense to me. Nothing to see here folks. Chillum 19:06, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

Docmartincohen

Oh, there is, could an independent admin look into the behaviour of Docmartincohen??? In particular, these accusations on my user page sums it up for me. I moved it to my talk page and responded. It is completely unfounded and related to our current disagreements on the Julian Baggini biography. After that kind of stuff, he comes here complaining suggesting Phil be blocked?

Well, I suggest Docmartincohen be warned or blocked... Merzul (talk) 20:10, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

I confess, I share the concerns - between his seemingly spurious COI tags of books by other authors, and his writing of promotional articles for his own work, I am very concerned about this editor. Phil Sandifer (talk) 20:33, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

 Done, warned Docmartincohen. Cheers. --lifebaka (talk - contribs) 20:49, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

Ii consdier the above commetn by Phil to be clearly a violation of Misplaced Pages policy, in that it slanders me as and my motives. I'm not going to take legal action, of course, but I DO think the adminstrators noticeboard shoudl be a place a user can raise a matter without being slandered.

Docmartincohen (talk) 21:50, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

You're not being slandered. First off, when it's written it's libel, not slander. Second off, there are no accusations of anything here that aren't backed up with evidence that shows the sorts of behavior the accusations are about. Persons not agreeing with you does not amount to libel, nor does it amount to a personal attack. Please do not assume that editors mean you any harm. Cheers. --lifebaka (talk - contribs) 22:57, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

Husond

Husond is involved in a naming discussion over Þorvaldr Ásvaldsson, for whom the anglicized Thorvald Asvaldsson is far more common in English; there is substantial evidence of this on the talk page. In the process, he has three times reverted to the repetitious text:

Þorvaldr Ásvaldsson (Icelandic: Þorvaldr Ásvaldsson) was the father of the discoverer of Greenland,...

removing all mention of the common name from the article. So far, so good; this is a content dispute; I do not care for his tactics, and I am not encouraged to like or trust him, but I would not bring this here except for the following.

• He sent me a warning describing this content dispute as vandalism;
• He reported it to WP:AIV (and did not notify me) after three exact reverts.
• When Parsecboy labelled it a content dispute, he argued that this was disruption.

All are welcome to chime in on the content dispute (is there a compromise?); but this borders on an effort to settle it by use of admin powers. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 19:06, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

It looks like the article hasn't been moved yet, although from the "survey" its headed in that direction despite Husond's opposition. His view that it doesn't make sense to change the version of the name used in the article until the article is moved is fairly sensible - certainly, when the move discussion is going your way, it doesn't make sense to edit war over it. I imagine that Husond won't be using his admin tools in this situation, and a declined report at AIV isn't something that can really garner admin intervention. What would you like to accomplish through this report? Avruch 19:18, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

What would I like? To remind Husond to separate admin powers from content disputes hereafter. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 19:31, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

I must say I'm with Pmanderson in being rather disappointed with Husond's behaviour; he ought to know better. Of course, everybody involved ought to know better; it's not as if the Great Icelandic Thorn Battle was a new phenomenon. The obvious intermediate wording solution that solves both Pmanderson's legitimate complaint about redundant redundancies (which redundantly repeated the same information twice) and Husond's legitimate complaint about inconsistent inconsistencies between article title and lead was probably just too obvious for anybody to find in the heat of battle... Fut.Perf. ☼ 19:25, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for the reality check. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 19:31, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

Hah! Pmanderson is good at distortion, but I've seen better. Here's the facts:

1. The article in question is Þorvaldr Ásvaldsson. On Misplaced Pages, the first mention of the subject of an article must conform to its title, regardless of any ongoing proposals to rename.
2. Pmanderson insists in changing the first paragraph so that the article starts with "Thorvald Asvaldsson", which does not conform with the title of the respective article.
3. Pmanderson was informed about #1 and still defiantly proceeded to revert to his preferred form.
4. Pmanderson's actions are clearly WP:POINT, not a raw content dispute or edit war. Persistent WP:POINT violations are often dealt no differently than vandalism. The fact that Pmanderson is a well established editor should not entitle him any special leniency.
5. I fail to understand what exactly Future Perfect thinks I ought to know better.

Sigh. Húsönd 23:23, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

I've certainly never treated a POINT vio as vandalism, and it strikes me as an exceedingly bad idea to do so. Vandalism is simple and clear-cut, POINT not so much (it involves a judgment of the intentions of the other editor to a much greater degree than vandalism). AIV wasn't the right place to handle this. Heimstern Läufer (talk) 02:14, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

Meh. I like to think I know Husond pretty well. Prior to our reconciliation, I truly did not care for his tactics of using his admin powers to resolve content and personal issues. However, I know for a fact he always does it to "achieve what's right", at least in his eyes. Even though it may not be the right thing, with good faith, you can usually see how he thought it was. In this case, where no blocks were given, I don't see any immediate action needed by an admin. Beam 02:23, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

PMAnderson was one of the antagonistic parties in the recent dispute over tennis player naming, which centred on the use of diacritics and the use of foreign characters as two separate issues, and which reached no ultimate resolution. I think there's some campaigning going on here, especially if the article has been at one location for a fair while. It has been at the present location for approximately 2 years, and before that was located at a similar name with one of the contested characters. Orderinchaos 05:30, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

Anonymous Restoration of Personal Attack at Talk:Haile Selassie

Last March, "user A" made a personal attack against "user B" at Talk:Haile Selassie, which "user B" then removed, with a note to the effect that the comments had been removed. No problem, business as usual. However today, an anonymous user User:201.50.0.58 (Contributions) located in Brazil restored the personal attack. I reverted this, because it serves no purpose whatsoever to have this irrelevant personal attack between users "A" and "B" on the talkpage. The anon then began edit warring with me, has broken 3RR, and insists through edit summaries that wikipedia policy fully justifies his edit warring to restore the Personal Attack from 4 months ago to the talkpage. I have read all the concerned policies very carefully, and can find no such justification. This very insistent user has now begun making personal attacks against me for reverting him. Til Eulenspiegel (talk) 19:14, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

Neither of you are right. Stop the edit warring, which applies to both you and the IP. You've both violated the 3RR, though I think it's hardly enough to count for anything but a warning right now. WP:NPA says quite clearly that there is no policy regarding this sort of thing, only that it is generally frowned upon. This isn't the sort of thing I'd remove, but some people have thin skin (or whatever, it doesn't matter why it was removed). If he wants to revert you should just let him and leave it at that; avoid the drahmahz. --lifebaka (talk - contribs) 19:31, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

When an anonymous user comes out of the woodwork and starts re-adding personal attacks from 4 months ago, insisting to the point of 4RR, I consider that purely disruptive behaviour - on his part. It serves no use whatsoever and it merely takes up a lot of my editing time dealing with it, or at least trying to get it dealt with. Til Eulenspiegel (talk) 19:43, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

I see two users violating 3RR, I have decided not to act on it. Stop edit warring, both of you. Chillum 19:48, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

Last I had heard 3RR only applies to article space, not talk, or otherwise. They might be disruptive, but 3RR doesn't apply here.--Crossmr (talk) 23:00, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

The IP contacted me on my talk page, resulting in this discussion. He didn't post here because it is permanently semi-protected.

Hi there! I'm the IP mentioned here. I cant edit the ANI page so I'll leave a comment here instead, as much as I hate to drag you into this. I tried to talk to user Eulenspiegel but he simply removed my message from his talk page, that was before my last revert. He branded my post harrassment and is now calling me a vandal. See here . I feel strongly about this issue because the comment was removed by the user it was directed at, and in its place the user left a note calling it trolling which it clearly was not. Assuming that he continues to ignomre as he did last time what course of action do I have? I do not wish to continue reverting, although I see that he has reverted yet again. 189.104.40.157 (talk) 19:50, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

If you are the same person (I assume this is true) you've got a dynamic IP and it's changed. I suggest you just let it all drop, leave the talk page in whatever form it's currently in, and go do something else. You violated 3RR as much as Til Eulenspiegel has and further edit warring will just get you and him in trouble (as well as probably start stupid things like a WP:SSP....). No moar drahmahz. Cheers. --lifebaka (talk - contribs) 19:59, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

Yup, I'm the same person. I'm too involved now to just let it drop, but I'll settle for this: An independent admin, can be you or ony other, reviews the situation and decides if it should indeed have been removed or not. I'll abide by whathever they decide. how does that sound? (I know this whole thing prob seems silly to you, but it has a greater importance to me: I've edited as an IP for a while and frequently I've seen that when users disgree whith IPs theyre fast to call them vandals even when theyre not, so I decided to make a stadn on this issue) 189.104.40.157 (talk) 20:10, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

Chillum's assessment, as well as my own, this this: Just drop it, leave it however it is, and walk away. It's not that big a deal, guys. It's not the end of the world or anything. Cheers. --lifebaka (talk - contribs) 20:18, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

Dbachmann conflict of interest

Dbachmann has protected an article here for which he is involved in dispute. This issue was brought about in the case Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Dbachmann in which a decision was made here that Dbachmann should not protect pages of articles he is involved in disputes. Dbachmann is involved in a dispute at Origin of religion per his numerous contributions such as July 4 and here. Crazy baldhead (talk) 20:46, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

Just another probable Muntuwandi sock.--Ramdrake (talk) 20:51, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

Besides that, looks like a kosher WP:SALTing of the page too. Might've been better to ask someone else to do it, but I'm not concerned as long as the outcome is fine. Cheers. --lifebaka (talk - contribs) 20:56, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

I don't like Dbachmann, but looking at the topic and article content, looks like a reasonable redirect. I can't see any prior content of the old article, however, so there may be more to this. ThuranX (talk) 21:09, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

He has deleted the edit history and there are other editors who made comments Talk:Evolutionary origins of religion, so it was premature of him.Crazy baldhead (talk) 21:12, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

It was an article validly deleted after AfD, and then recreated by an obvious banned sock. Preventing obvious banned socks from abusively recreating articles is as legitimate for an involved admin as fighting vandalism. Nothing to see here, move on. Fut.Perf. ☼ 21:14, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

This is not the article that was deleted. Crazy baldhead (talk) 21:17, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

User:Sting au had made contributions on the page, yet dab has deleted the edit history. Crazy baldhead (talk) 21:24, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

And you as a one-week-old account "just making fun" would know about all this background exactly how? -- Blocked as another obvious troll sock. Fut.Perf. ☼ 21:27, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

User:Chrisjnelson by User:72.0.36.36 a.k.a. User:Sackmachine91

This user is deleting a good-faith ediit at Chris Long (American football). I made a good-faith edit, he reverted, I reverted it back. He then, then me. However, do to a "majority rule" mentality there it seems I cann be given a fair shake. The note was judged WP:N by not only me, but one dipassionate user who has no history of being part of a mob. So, I ask, if this rule listed below counts, why does someone get to revert a good-faith edit? Why does this article a democracy? Why doe the rules not apply to the long-term users who abuse their power? Why does a known trouble maker (chrisjenelson) get away with this even after he is blocked time and again? If the rules matter, I ask that Admins who are not part of the NFL project look at this. Those who are fair and unbiased.

1. Particularly, don't revert good faith edits. Reverting is a little too powerful sometimes, hence the three-revert rule. Don't succumb to the temptation, unless you're reverting very obvious vandalism (like "LALALALAL*&*@#@THIS_SUX0RZsammygoo", or someone changing "4+5=9" to "4+5=30"). If you really can't stand something, revert once, with an edit summary something like "(rv) I disagree strongly, I'll explain why in talk." and immediately take it to talk.

If this does no matter then why is it a guidleine or suggestion? If wiki is a democracy then why doe the rules say it is not a democracy. If the so-called majority will not compromise in any way, how are they a legitamte consensus?Sackmachine91 (talk) 20:25, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

CHrisjNelson's been here at AN/I before about the same exact page and behaviors. that said, this is a content issue, adn one that ChrisJNelson is correct about. A minor comment about a non-issue isn't notable. ThuranX (talk) 20:28, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

This is a textbook example of tendentious editing by Sackmachine91, AKA 72.0.36.36 (talk · contribs · WHOIS). At Talk:Chris Long (American football), not a single person has been persuaded by his numerous arguments for inclusion of this trivial piece of information. When he disappeared for a while recently, the article sat quiet and untouched. He returns and begins pushing the exact same arguments again as though no one had heard them the first 20 times. He throws around threatening speech calling everyone uncivil and childish and lets the propaganda terms fly. Now he's targetting Chrisjnelson, likely because of his lengthy block log but the fault clearly lies with 72.0.36.36 in this case. One scan over the article's talk page is quite convincing. —Wknight94 (talk) 20:33, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

The IP editor is now being hostile to those drawn in from AN/I, telling me that because I agreed with an extant majority, I don't understand Misplaced Pages, that I think it's a democracy of mob rule and so on. Now, not only do I believe that the IP editor is in the wrong, but hsi Tendentious Editing style and the fact that there are multiple talk page sections at the article devoted to his unstopping behavior means he's due for a block to prevent further tendentious editing. 48 to 96 hours ought to be fair. ThuranX (talk) 20:43, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

Just a clarification, even though I think ThuranX has got it right anyway: CJN's past run-ins with the law ANI had more to do with civility than they did with edit-warring. And I think he finally got the point after the last go-round. --Jaysweet (talk) 20:50, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

To support jaysweet's comment, CJN is being far better in that regard in this conflict. ThuranX (talk) 20:54, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

This is strictly a content issue, and Nelson is on the side of consensus at this point. Baseball Bugs 22:10, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

• I agree with ThuranX. Enigma 22:25, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

This is an open request for a block of the IP and account in question. His BAD faith behavior and wikilawyering, are signs of seriously tendentious editing. He refuses to see consensus, asserting it is just a conspiracy of numbers, though the debate is days old, sections long, with plenty of explanations from half a dozen editors. ThuranX (talk) 00:56, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

Unless the IP is currently fighting upstream against obvious consensus than please don't block. If he's stopped, take the time to give him a stiff warning, and try to garner a conversation of positivity. If he reacts poorly with uncivil comments or makes further bad edits than consider a block. Try a little goodness first though please. Beam 01:08, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

"Unless the IP is currently fighting upstream against obvious consensus..." Yes, that's exactly what's happening. This reminds me a bit of the user MAL-something at Talk:Atlanta Braves and elsewhere, who is absolutely relentless and uncompromising in his argument, in the face of all opposition. The difference is that MAL is currently only debating. 2X.0.X.X continues to debate AND to post his edit in the face of all opposition, and continually dances around the question of the notability of the item he keeps trying to post. In a nutshell, he's being disruptive and something needs to be done to at least temporarily put the brakes on the endless loop that he's produced in the article's editing process. Baseball Bugs 01:13, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

I think everything has been tried. This stretches back over a full month and the IP has not changed his behavior one whit. Same old story. No one agrees with him, yet he asserts that the opposition is a conspiracy to prevent him from editing. Enigma 01:16, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

When was his latest offense? After this offense, was this ANi the only action taken? Was he contacted at all on his talk page? Beam 01:21, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

He is aware of this thread, his last post was about an hour ago, if not more recently. This has been going on for over two weeks, see an earlier thread User_talk:Ksy92003#Funny about it here. This has been ongoing for more than two weeks; using the 'well, he hasn't done anything in the last few hours' defense isn't going to work this time. He needs to be stopped; this is not going to abate otherwise. ThuranX (talk) 01:29, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

Of course he's aware of it - He's the one that posted it, assuming these diffs correctly demonstrate that they are the same guy: Baseball Bugs 01:49, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

He has been warned several times about continuing this behavior, and was also blocked for edit-warring on the same article. Enigma 01:32, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

On the off chance he is unaware of the turn this discussion has taken, I left a note on his talk page. Rlendog (talk) 01:52, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

He posted this thread himself (as Wknight94 noted), so one might assume he's watching it. Baseball Bugs 01:55, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

Was his latest edit, edit warring? The one a few hours ago? If not, give him one final warning before a 30 day block. Honestly, if he can't change his ways in the face of 30 days, than I agree with the block. Is this ok?Beam 01:48, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

Honestly, you guys have dealt with his bullshit shenanigans thus far, give him a FINAL WARNING (duhn, duhn, duhhhh) and threaten a 30 day block. Figure it this way: if he does not heed this warning, you're free for 30 days! Beam 01:51, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

I'm not defending him or anything, but has 72.0.36.36 really done anything worth being blocked? I mean he hasn't violated WP:3RR, hasn't been uncivil on the talk page discussion. He might've pissed everybody off, but is that enough to issue a block? Ksy92003 (talk) 01:58, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

He stopped short of violating the revert rules but his argument remains the same in spite of opposition and continual questions he can't answer about notability. There's a fine line between "good faith" and "hard-headedness". One more authoritative warning, and block if he won't stop. Baseball Bugs 02:05, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

To Ksy, yes, it is block-worthy. Look at the first line of WP:BLOCK: "Blocks are used to prevent damage or disruption to Misplaced Pages". Look how much time has been spent refuting his redundant arguments today alone. If that's not disruption, I don't know what is. Disruption of what I had planned on being a productive day here. —Wknight94 (talk) 02:10, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

An excellent point, good sir Wknight94. There's an important distinction between this guy and MAL-something. MAL is only debating, and lately being ignored, so no harm. But MAL has stopped short of trying to re-post. 2X.0.X.X where X = 36 also posts his stuff in defiance of consensus, forcing someone to revert it, nearly getting Nelson into trouble again even though it's justified in this case. Baseball Bugs 02:16, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

Beam, this is your mess. You want to stand on process wonking, you handle it, I wash my hands of it, I'm walking away. That's the most insulting excuse for not bothering to read things over I've seen from an admin in a while. You've got numerous people talking about his problems here, more at the talk page, and you insist on a ton of bureaucracy. You clean this mess up, I'm out. ThuranX (talk) 02:27, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

I feel a final warning will truly give him a final chance. Worst case - he fucks up and gets blocked for 30 days. Best case: he changes and we get positive contributions. Sounds win win to me. Beam 03:39, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

No, worst case is you string this out with process playing for another three days of disruptino. Stop coddling him, he's been warned ad nauseum in the course of the discussion. that they weren't placed in tempalte form on his talk page speaks instead to two valuable ideas:One, not tempating a regular. He might not be a 'true' regular with an account but he claims to understand policies, and as an IP, he might come back on another IP, missing the warnings. Giving them in the discussion shoudl suffice. Now block him. ThuranX (talk) 03:49, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

Beamathan isn't an admin. Wknight has given his opinion. Anyone else? Enigma 02:33, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

The dilemma is that Wknight94 and Pats1 are "involved", so if they issue the block, 72/Sack will likely yelp about that also. But fear not, Luke... there could be... another. Baseball Bugs 03:09, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

Ksy, I'm a little perplexed at the extent to which you've defended the IP user. No, he cannot be blocked for 3RR, and even if he did violate that, it'd really be the least of his offenses. He has been disruptive beyond words, failed to adhere to numerous policies, hurled ridiculous accusations to ruin the credibility of a legitimate consensus. Essentially, he's like a little kid crying in a store because his mommy won't buy him some candy. It's ridiculous this has lasted this long and gotten to this point.►Chris Nelson 05:29, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

Per Beam's insistence on infinite chances to disrupt, he's been warned, both at the IP and the account, and if that isn't a SOCK problem as well, including the changing of his IP sigs to his Account and such, then whatever, Beam will insist on a warning for that too. ThuranX (talk) 05:43, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

To summarize, the IP has repeatedly edit-warred, edited tendentiously, and made more personal attacks than I can even count. He has disrupted AN/I with his creation of threads that serve to confuse rather than inform. Finally, the main crux of it is that he has been the sole reason for disruption on the Chris Long article stretching back to June 18. Pages and pages of fruitless talk, all due to his persistence in refusing to get along with reality. There have been warnings. See his talk page and the Chris Long talk. It's past time that he either get a block or a topic ban. Please make it stop. Enigma 05:49, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

I think you hit the nail on the head. Perhaps not individual actions of his are worthy of a block. Perhaps not even one day's worth of his actions. But given the time this has all gone on for, his behavior, accusations, conspiracy theories and overall disruption, I'd say more than warrants a block or topic ban. He may not be just coming out and calling someone a stupid mother effer, but I'd say his behavior stretched out over more than a month is far worse than any personal attack or 3RR violation.►Chris Nelson 05:55, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

I recently noticed yet another attack that I had missed the first time around. He had accused me of adding tags that I didn't add. When I responded that it simply wasn't true, he came back with this gem: "this is simple disruption by you and I find it pretty immature, how old are you? Are you about the same ages as chrisjnelson? A rage age?" I point it out because it was something I didn't see until just now, but he's accused me of much, much worse, and repeatedly. Doesn't matter whether the accusations had any basis. Seems to be a matter of throwing things at people and seeing what sticks. Enigma 06:01, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

Well, now he's had ample warning thrown at him. If that doesn't stick, a block will. Baseball Bugs 10:28, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

Per this diff, made after his warnings, he isn't stopping. Block now needed more than ever. ThuranX (talk) 15:22, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

Those are just his talk-page complaints, demonstrating that he either doesn't get it or is being deliberately obtuse. Baseball Bugs 15:57, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

I've warned him to stop edit warring against consensus. If he reinstates the content again I will consider the block for disruption. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs 15:28, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

Are you kidding us? Are you kidding? He WAS warned. Over and Over and Over and Over. How many times does he need to be warned? How many free passes to fuck around and play games does he get? Beamathan insisted he be warned again, and he was. At BOTH his IP and his ACCOUNT. And you warned him AGAIN? He's never gonna stop now. He was warned that he'd be blocked, not warned that he'd be warned again and again. You gonna template him to death? What a joke. ThuranX (talk) 16:04, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

He qualifies for a block, I would say. The catch is, he's now stopped trying to change the article. In effect, he's "playing" us. Baseball Bugs 16:10, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

And the minute we stop pushing for a block, and this gets archived, he'll be back. It's a CIVIL POV PUSH methodology. He needs a block, but we've seen the admins aren't interested in following through. ThuranX (talk) 16:14, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

It certainly does appear the big picture is not being taken into account here. Like I said before, it's not want single action that's warranting a block-it's over a month of continued edit-warring, personal attacks, baseless accusations and general disruption.►Chris Nelson 16:10, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

And rather than answering direct questions directly, we get essays about what he thinks wikipedia is supposedly about. There is little hope that anything is going to change. Baseball Bugs 16:29, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

Uninvolved admin opinion:

• OK, I've spend quite some time wading thru the extraordinarily long talk page, and I think I see at least a majority of the big picture. Given the level and extent of the disruption; the tendentiousness of the editing; and the complete misunderstanding (unclear if it is intentional or not) of consensus, I'm going to block for 48 hours for disruption: making it nearly impossible for anything productive to get done on the talk page. I'm also going to warn the user that, at least, the subject of Long's trainer speech has been more than adequately discussed, consensus is firmly against him, and that further attempts to re-add that material will result in immediate block for much longer. And, finally, that during the block, he needs to read WP:DISRUPT, WP:TE, and WP:CONSENSUS carefully, because further violations of those principles after the block expires will result in quicker and much longer blocks.
• If he returns to editing the article or it's talk page, I expect everyone will make a superhuman effort to treat him with respect, letting bygones be bygones, and no matter how exasperated you are, you'll not answer fire with fire, but if his misbehavior (not disagreement, but misbehavior) resumes, you will point it out to me, or point another admin to this discussion, my comment here, and the note I will soon leave on his talk page, and let us take care of it. If you can all stay cool, I'm pretty sure future problems can be dealt with much more quickly. --barneca (talk) 16:45, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

Please block both the IP and account, to avoid socking issues. thank you for taking a stand here. ThuranX (talk) 16:51, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

Good point. And the IP made some odd statement about not being able to edit here and that's why he logged on. What's that about? Baseball Bugs 17:05, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

Request for a block review

The following discussion is archived. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.

I have one additional concern, and that is the issue of the block itself possibly being made in bad faith. Majorly made some very troubling comments in a public channel immediately before blocking; one remark verbatim was "I'm gonna block him; I like drama, so this will be fun." Administrative errors are not that big of a deal and can be reversed and forgiven, but bad faith usage of the tools - for a laugh, of all things - should be quickly overturned to send the appropriate message. east718 // talk // email // 21:00, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

Links please? If it's all as you say, diffs will be easy to find. And if true, that's a good reason to consider taking away the mop. ThuranX (talk) 21:02, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

Begging pardon, but I'm editing from a phone and can't copy or paste anything. Most of the action can be found in the history of Milk's Favorite Cookie's request for adminship and on his talkpage. east718 // talk // email // 21:04, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

Disgraceful block - Majorly had to log out, and log into his abandoned admin account in order to make the block, in a situation where he was clearly involved - it was pure spite. If Majorly's plan is to only use his bit for things like this now, we really need to think about taking it away. I'm looking into the IRC complaint as well as we speak. Ryan Postlethwaite 21:06, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

Ignoring IRC or whatever, as we can't see that here, Majorly specifically stated on Badger Drinks talk page that the reason for the block was this. Goodness me, I've been called worse! Would recommend Majorly reverse the block straight away, in order to minimise the inevitable grief. Please. Pedro :  Chat  21:11, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

This is not a blockable comment. I suggest the user be unblocked. Chillum 21:13, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

So what kind of name calling would be a "blockable comment"? Al Tally 21:18, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

I suppose you would put the line before dweeb but after troll? Chillum 21:33, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

You call him a troll? He calls you a dweeb? Come on man, you were both name calling. Chillum 21:19, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

• Unblock, blocking someone for a pretty mild comment, where you are clearly involved and after accusing them of trolling, should not be done. Davewild (talk) 21:20, 22 July 2008 (UTC)
• Unblock Extremely inappropriate block from Majorly. Horologium (talk) 21:22, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

I have unblocked, per Majorly / Al Tally's note above, and advised Badger Drink accordingly. Pedro :  Chat  21:22, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

I've cocked up, due to the running together of two comments - my apologies Al Tally, I believed that you had requested an unblock. Pedro :  Chat  21:24, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

I am glad the block has been reversed. It would have been better if Majorly reversed it. Chillum 21:27, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

Yes, I was in error - I read an unblock comment that ran into Al Tally's post and it seemed Al Tally had said to unblock. This was my error,and I apologise for it. However as consensus seems to be unblock I'm not going to reverse my action at this time. Pedro :  Chat  21:31, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

(ecx4)Al, your out of line here. NPA has always been clear that blocks are for egregious or repeated offenses. There is nothing wrong with the policy the problem is in your judgment. His comment was about as much a violation as yours, should you be blocked for name calling too? Chillum 21:30, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

• Based on the Tango case, and the as yet unclosed Geogre-WMC case, the standard is clear that admins should not issue blocks in response to personal attacks directed at themselves. Based on that, and the fact that they were exchanging insults with eachother, and that Majorly responded with a block from one account that was directed at another account held by him (which is just strange and bears pointing out), I endorse the unblock. Avruch 21:29, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

• Unblock immediately. That is a terrible block. That misfortune could've fallen upon me too as I am opposing to MFC's adminship. Al Tally calling me a "dick" with a hidden link of "dick essay". In the situation, who has been really trolling at the page?-Caspian blue (talk) 21:28, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

He is unblocked.--PhilKnight (talk) 21:34, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

Due to multiple edit conflicts, I seem to post my statement belate--Caspian blue (talk) 21:38, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

• My question is this: Why on earth were the two of you having that discussion on an RFA page? I closed down a similarly inappropriate argument earlier today on another RFA. Once the discussion veers away from discussing the candidate, it needs to be taken off of the RFA pages. Bitch and snivel at each other on your own talk pages, but not an RFA. Horologium (talk) 21:29, 22 July 2008 (UTC)
• Poor judgment, Alex. You should have just seen Badger's actions as a provocation and let someone else handle that manner. Nishkid64 _{(Make articles, not wikidrama)} 21:40, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

• The MFD for WP:NPA has been speedily closed. Bencherlite 21:37, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

  LOL, Misplaced Pages:MFD#Misplaced Pages:No_personal_attacks What a nice try--Caspian blue (talk) 21:41, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

  Something funny Caspian blue? I don't see anything funny. How about you grow up a bit instead of making pointless "LOL look at me" type comments? Good grief. Al Tally 21:47, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

  So I have to put up with your continued attack because you have the magical admin tool? This show is really not that new one.--Caspian blue (talk) 21:51, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

  Trust me, I won't be making any more blocks. Al Tally 21:54, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

  I trust sensible admins only. --Caspian blue (talk) 22:05, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

• Al, when you make an MfD that is basically a joke, don't be surprised when people laugh. You are really hurting your reputation today please just take a wikibreak till you clear your head. Chillum 21:53, 22 July 2008 (UTC)
  • It was not a joke. It's a useless policy, that you violated on the MfD itself... Al Tally 21:54, 22 July 2008 (UTC)
    • You should know we don't go straight to MfD because we disagree with a policy Majorly. I'd recommend a break as well. Synergy 21:57, 22 July 2008 (UTC)
      • Why, you want me out of here? Fine then. Al Tally 22:00, 22 July 2008 (UTC)
        • No. I want to see you overcome this and remain calm. I don't want to see you leave because of this. Just take some time to self reflect. Synergy 22:04, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

I agree with Synergy here; no need to leave, Majorly. I don't think people calling for a break is really appropriate, either. We've all made our share of mistakes, and this entire situation seriously needs to be defused. GlassCobra 22:09, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

Leaving dramatically? The surprise nearly knocked me out of my seat. John Reaves 22:02, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

• • • You were making a POINT, you know better than that. You are understandably annoyed by someone being uncivil towards you, but deleting the policy page because people don't accept your block of them (which was bad, he should have been warned, not blocked, we don't block for first offences except in really serious cases). Make a complaint in an appropriate place, get him warned, and move on. --Tango (talk) 22:03, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

• Basically, whenever an admin like Al Tally makes a clear mistake, "admins are human beings" theory is coming up again? On the other hand, the blocked user has to carry the record of the false accusation of harassment to Al Tally on his block log. That is not fair.--Caspian blue (talk) 22:05, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

  Same as we don't block people for one act of incivility, we don't desysop people for one bad block. The entry in the block log is followed immeadiately by an unblock, so no real harm is done. --Tango (talk) 22:09, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

  Well, he does not seem to acknowledge his mistake and even attempted to eliminate WP:NPA page from Misplaced Pages. The blocked user deserves to get an apology from him. No harm done? Yes, harm already done to the blocked editor.--Caspian blue (talk) 22:15, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

• What is this "Majorly/Al Tally" nonsense? If you are an administrator, please stick to one name. It is confusing when the actions of admin "Majorly" are being discussed here and you post as "Al Tally." Edison (talk) 22:07, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.

Possible infringement of Misplaced Pages content?

User:Ziggythehamster expressed a concern on WP:RFC (here, specifically) that an external website is using Misplaced Pages content without citing Misplaced Pages as its source. Is this really an issue, and if it is, can someone please send it to the right people? I figured someone here would probably know how to deal with this. Thanks! SunDragon34 (talk) 22:12, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

This can be reported at Misplaced Pages:Mirrors and forks. PrimeHunter (talk) 22:36, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

Also, someone might want to send a Standard GFDL violation letter. Algebraist 23:06, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

Americanization

Americanization (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · block user · block log) is apparently a single purpose account dedicated to undoing American spellings in articles, including articles where it is appropriate.
Kww (talk) 22:15, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

Hardly an SPA: he also finds time for some constructive edits (, ) and some random vandalism (, ). Algebraist 22:25, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

His first "contribution" is the best though - "downsize" = "downsise" LOL! Someone ought to learnt to use their Find/Replace function better. Darkson (BOOM! An interception!) 22:28, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

While I was busy giving him a stern warning to abide by the MOS section regarding varieties of English, User:Rifleman 82 was busy indef-blocking him. I don't know that I support an indef-block, but I'm not going to recommend a review. The user page and the blatantly offensive edit summaries he left on United States Air Force don't offer much hope that he will be able to work well with others. Horologium (talk) 22:36, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

Funny he didn't spell his name Americanisation. Corvus cornix_talk 22:39, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

From his userpage: "I believe that the americanization of Enlgish worldwide must be halted. We speak English, not American!!!'"....yep looks like an SPA to me. Also an edit summary for the USAF article edit: "Americans don't own the internet". I also found the changing of size to sise weird. I don't know of any variants of English that does that.--Jersey Devil (talk) 22:51, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

There isn't. And "Arizona" to "Arisona"? Looks like a joke rather than POV pushing in that first edit. Fribbler (talk) 22:58, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

Maybe it was just incompetent use of Find/Replace as Darkson indicated. Every "iz" was changed to "is". PrimeHunter (talk) 23:03, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

Truth be told, iz, having been used in British English since the 16th century, is again becoming a part of "UK spelling" with is falling out. Gwen Gale (talk) 23:05, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

The OUP has always preferred endings in "-ize" (where there is an option - of course, sometimes one must use "-ise"). DuncanHill (talk) 23:15, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

We (of course!) have an article: Oxford spelling. Algebraist 23:23, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

Which doesn't mention the verbs corresponding to a noun with "-is-" as part of the stem, that Oxford spells "-ise" (for example, comprise, circumcise). DuncanHill (talk) 00:31, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

Wasn't there an episode of Morse in which the cracking of the case depended on the "preferred" Oxford use of "-ize"? – ukexpat (talk) 13:04, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

• Endorse indef block. We are saving ourselves a lot of crappy, tedious work in the future by removing a clear single purpose account whose stated agenda is to remove the "americanization" of the "Enlgish" language. Perhaps, someone should clue him in on the "English" spelling of "americanization" and the proper spelling of "Enlgish." seicer | talk | contribs 01:50, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

gold heart still on a similar IP range, which doesn't seem to be blocked

Please extend the block on this range. This is him today User:93.107.64.86, him the other day User:93.107.68.59, there was another one too. As you can see, the IPs are similar so a range block would sort it at least in terms of this current access he has at home or wherever it is. Sticky Parkin 23:07, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

I'd have no problems with blocking out to the /16, that happened previously, and per CheckUsers, he's the only editor on that /16 currently (any new folks that come by, we can judge collateral damage at that time, and look in releasing the block, narrowing it, or granting IP Block Exempt. I won't do the block myself, due to my extensive history with Gold heart, however. SirFozzie (talk) 23:11, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

Thanks, this has already been mentioned here , don't know if it's already been done. Sticky Parkin 23:24, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

Doesn't look like it, I've brought up Alison's statement that there should be no problems with blocking out to the /16, as he is the only user on that /16 (despite his claims that a rangeblock would take out "all of Ireland") SirFozzie (talk) 23:31, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

I think we can all agree, Gold heart's word (at this point) is worthless. GoodDay (talk) 23:39, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

What can we do about this? I've just spent the last half hour reverting stuff he's been trying to add to articles. TharkunColl (talk) 23:41, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

The /16 IP Range has been blocked for six months. SirFozzie (talk) 00:09, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

• Support Range Block of Ireland Beam 00:11, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
  • Now now, it's not a "range block of Ireland." It's a range block of an Irish ISP, which is apparently only being used by one individual to edit Misplaced Pages.—Ryūlóng (竜龙) 04:55, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

For the record, this IP range belongs to Vodafone Ireland, an Irish mobile phone operator (IE-EIRCELL-20080409). Checkuser shows that there are no other anonymous editors on this range other than Gold heart - no others, not in months - and that there will be little if any collateral damage. The IPblock is assigned to the Dublin area and while there are some registered editors on it, a softblock will not hurt them - Alison 05:04, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

Well, you seem to have blocked everyone who edits anonymously from a Vodafone phone. Good thing the iPhone is on O2 in Ireland, eh? :) Stifle (talk) 13:15, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

And good thing I use O2 as well... Stifle (talk) 13:18, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

Muntuwandi

Banned user Muntuwandi (talk · contribs) is running amok with an army of socks, Mr. Muntuwandi (talk · contribs), Monsieur Muntuwandi (talk · contribs), etc. etc. Need help with this. --dab (𒁳) 23:26, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

Sam Korn blocked one IP recently, but I don't think that's going to fix it. He'll get tired eventually and go outside or spend some time with his family. In the meantime, are there any pages you'd like me to watchlist to help block the socks as they appear? MastCell  23:45, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

Sam Korn blocked User:Muntuwandi180 and I just blocked User:2005 munthuwandey. I wish the user creation log understood wildcards. —Travis 00:03, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

if it did, this user would just generate more erratic usernames, if anything just making sock-spotting more difficult, not less. --dab (𒁳) 08:44, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

Origin of religion is his usual favourite page. Stifle (talk) 13:14, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

User:Mybiggestfan123

This user is being really disruptive. Last week,he kept changing the genres on Rihanna and Britney Spears,and because of that,he was blocked for 24 hours. As soon as he was unblocked,he went back on his genre-changing spree,and got blocked for 72 hours as the result. And tonight,as soon as he got unblocked again,he started changing the Rihanna genres again,as you can see here and here. If he continues this,a block for anytime between a week and a month may be necessary. XxJoshuaxX (talk) 00:13, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

Thank you. Hopefully he'll stop when the block expires. XxJoshuaxX (talk) 00:25, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

Ausonia is ignoring the issue

Ausonia has made the exact same reverts as several IPs and a user called Italicus.

The user has decided to ignore the issue and bypassed an IP block as Italicus yesterday (see User talk:Italicus and Misplaced Pages:Suspected sock puppets/200.215.40.3).

Today, that user is Ausonia as the other two were blocked. I have tried to explain that no consensus was reached for those edits to be made on Italicus's talk page—and failed to convince him/her. What should I do? ~ Troy (talk) 00:16, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

Blocked for 24 hours. I also highly suggest that you stop edit waring as well; although you're right, you've violated the 3RR a few times yesterday. Cheers. --lifebaka (talk - contribs) 01:02, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

Grawp

Probably nothing that can really be done, but FYI Grawp has moved to special:Emailuser for his amusement so if you block a grawp sock, please remember to disable email. --B (talk) 01:06, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

Pfffft, he can spend all night sending me e-mail if that's what he wants to do. I can delete them faster than he can send them. —Wknight94 (talk) 02:19, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

WP:BEANS. Don't think he's not reading this. Daniel Case (talk) 03:00, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

The beans have already been spilled. Let this just be a reminder to admins to block email when blocking said accounts. - Rjd0060 (talk) 03:25, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

He tried that stunt on me, too, but they all fell into my gmail spam filter. Bummer! Probably something to do with his MASSIVE COCK stories etc :/ Either way, I strongly recommend blocking all Grawp socks with email disabled. Same goes for User:TougHHead, if anyone encounters his socks - Alison 04:43, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

That Gmail spam filter, always one step ahead :) Gary King (talk) 06:56, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

206.170.104.70

206.170.104.70 has made repeated vandal edits to my talk page. . Could this IP be temporarily blocked for a week or so please? The person behind the IP shows no indication of stopping. Kopf1988 (talk) 01:10, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

Two edits over a two day spread is not "repeated vandal edits" with respect to your talk page, however, I did block for 31 hours for other offenses. seicer | talk | contribs 02:32, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

Um, friends, Wikipedians, countrymen....

...is this acceptable? As far as I'm aware, the IP isn't an OP. -Jéské 02:27, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

Did you notify Daniel Case of this? Or take it to his talk page, for what may be an error? seicer | talk | contribs 02:29, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

I'm on my way to do so; I have other things going on. -Jéské 02:30, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

For future reference, your first stop should have been DC's talk page, not here. Tan ǀ 39 02:33, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

I know, and I admit I slotted up here. I did, however, start a thread asking about it on DC's page and backlinking to here; I came here first because this is the first time I've had to second-guess a block from another addy. -Jéské 02:37, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

It was indeed a mistake I made and have since corrected. Since school is not in session in North America I've been doing more username and VOA blocks lately and so have been almost reflexively hitting indef. Thanks for catching the error. Daniel Case (talk) 02:59, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

(ec) Resolved, and ready to be slapped in the face (use a marlin, it tends to be more memorable than a rainbow trout). -Jéské 03:00, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

Okay, done. :-) Fut.Perf. ☼ 07:46, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

User:InternetHero

InternetHero (talk · contribs · block log) seems to be no stranger to edit waring with a talk page full of Edit war warnings, 3RR violations, and even 24 hour blocks. He/she is now at it at Telescope with POV edits along the lines of Ibn Al-Haytham's made specific contributions to the telescope, including that he invented the telescope apparently following a personal POV of "great minds of these men should be recognized at all costs". I tried to point out that the references do not support the edits, that they are POV and UNDUE. This has simply lead to InternetHero's continual reverting with uncivil comments of "you are a racist person" and "Take your racist views elsewhere, you bigot." . Fountains of Bryn Mawr (talk) 03:56, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

Hasn't violated 3RR yet on that article since he was unblocked, and I'm not seeing a need to block for being uncivil yet. The bigot comment was retracted and other than the two above I'm not seeing any egregious attacks against you or anyone else (but that could just be me). Ping me if things get worse, and I'll be watching. Cheers. --lifebaka (talk - contribs) 13:46, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

Block review User:Cberlet

I just blocked Chip ( Cberlet (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log) ) for 24 hrs for violating WP:CIVIL with this remarkably angry and hostile comment:

I asked him to retract it and pointed out that it was unacceptable, his response indicated that he didn't feel it was inappropriate. Though I generally agree with him and he's a long-standing positive contributor, if he's snapping at people like that right now I think he needs a short break. Review appreciated, however. Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 04:01, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

This seems dangerously close to a "cool-down" block. Are we really worried that Jimbo, the ArbCom, or the board is going to be driven off Misplaced Pages by such a comment? If not, there's no real point in blocking (unless we're going to really dig into the letter of WP:BLP, but even then, I believe all of his LaRouche claims are rather well-established, and are certainly presented as personal opinion). For what it's worth, I completely disagree with this block. --Badger Drink (talk) 04:11, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

WP:CIVIL exists for a reason, as do WP:NPA etc. I doubt Jimmy, Arbcom, or anyone else will feel personally insulted, but the point is that nobody should be wandering around saying things like that on-wiki. People have been blocked for far longer for less. This is well established policy. That said - further review is always useful. Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 04:33, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

This is a silly block, IMO. Chip is railing against Misplaced Pages's failure to enforce policy on the LaRouche articles, which are WP:OWNed by zealots. He is right. Guy (Help!) 04:42, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

Posit for a moment that I agree with you...

Chip could have said so without running a SUV through our civility policy... And chose rather insistently to be extremely rude about it. This is not behavior we should be encouraging. Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 04:50, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

Looks like a decent block. Close to cool-down, but the German trains response following is highly inappropriate as well. ThuranX (talk) 05:16, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

I endorse this block. However I'll note that other parties in the conflict have been using equally uncivil language, one of which I redacted because I thought it was unhelpful. It'd be great if this block improves the civility. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 07:26, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

I don't think this is a good block. First, I don't like blocks for strong but honest language, as long as it stays this side of WP:NPA (and expressing frustration with Misplaced Pages and its structures should have even more leeway), and secondly I don't see how this is likely to positively influence Chip. He's just doubly pissed now. I do appreciate the style of the block message, though. Very good, clear explanation of why the behavior was problematic. Chip's German/trains comment was completely over the top, though. Now I'm pissed, too, and I guess so would be others. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 07:46, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

Good block. Viridae 07:49, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

I'd say that his comment is just as much a violation of WP:BLP as it is uncivil. Cla68 (talk) 07:56, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

Endorse block- no need to call people things like that (regardless of whether you think it's true) it's unconstructive and intimidating. Sticky Parkin 11:51, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

Endorse block - looking at the thread in which Chip made the original comment, it appears that someone mentioned his habit of citing himself wherever possible, and his response was to loose his temper. He was then warned, and his response was unhelpful. PhilKnight (talk) 13:01, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

No worries about Jimbo or arbcom members being driven off by such talk, but other editors might easily grow quiet in fear such labels might be slapped on them. I don't see this as a cooldown block, I see it as a way to stop any a hint of a personal attack from this editor for a day. This is beyond strong language, it's name calling, clearly meant to stop discussion. Gwen Gale (talk) 13:06, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

Is this acceptable? --Random832 (contribs) 13:33, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

It's a rant/vent targeted at Misplaced Pages overall. I don't read it as a PA. Gwen Gale (talk) 13:36, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

Request for review: Consistant misattribution of cited sources

Pointers here left at Pederasty#Australasia and User_talk:Haiduc#Problems_with_a_recent_citation

I'll attempt to present only the facts here.

• 02:38, 23 July 2008 Aaron Brenneman (Talk | contribs | block) (77,173 bytes) (→Post-classical and modern forms: removed sections without references: Australasia, Central America, Europe) (undo)
• 03:50, 23 July 2008 Haiduc (Talk | contribs | block) (81,803 bytes) (restored removed sections and added refs) (rollback | undo)
• Upon reviewing the cited source here I am unable to find support for the majority of the material.

I'd ask for a review of the source, of the material added, and of the comments that I've left in both places. brenneman 05:12, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

I was under the impression that editing disputes did not belong on ANI. Am I missing something, here, or are you just trying to keep Haiduc so tied up he cannot edit properly? Jeffpw (talk) 05:20, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

This is not a content dispute. When an editor consistantly has problems with interpretation of sources (see Jules Verne talk as well) then this is an appropiate place to raise the concern. - brenneman 05:31, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

I've also just issued a warning to Jeffpw. In my opinion he's been ratcheting up the heat across several venues, and is bordering on disruption. I'd welcome a opinions on this as well. - brenneman 05:57, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

• This is difficult. Editors who give even the appearance of advancing a pro-paedophilia POV have, historically, been given very little slack, for good reason. There has in the past been determined and wholly unacceptable abuse of Misplaced Pages for advocacy, and ArbCom has historically fast-tracked consideration of any such issues, and debated cases in private. I don't think Jeffpw is here predominantly to advocate paedophilia, but some of what he is doing has the strong appearance of militant activism, and he should be aware that this is one area where militant activism is particularly problematic, due to the potential impact on the reputation of the project. I think Jeffpw and Haiduc need to turn the heat down at least two notches and respect the fact that the default for disputed content is to keep it out of mainspace until there is agreement from all sides as to whether, and how, it should be included. The onus is always on the editor seeking to include disputed content, to achieve consensus for its inclusion - anythign else would be a POV-pusher's charter. In this case it is especially important to remember that consensus IS NOT agreement of a small group of like-minded users, it requires broad agreement from all sides, and additional input must be solicited if there are not enough eyes on the dispute. Guy (Help!) 09:24, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

• • Brenneman, you could not have found a more unsuitable instance to support your contention. The citation was applicable to the text, it was from an article that discussed the extinction of the very practices discussed in the paragraph (which, as you might notice, I modified to reflect this more recent report). It is an initial citation for a totally non-controversial section. Australasian pederasty is well known and documented, there is nothing to argue about there.
  • Guy, if I was a litigious fellow I would have you strung up by the authorities here for your slur of "pro-paedophilia POV." How do you permit yourself to cast ugly innuendoes on my work on homosexual history? Is this what administrators are supposed to spend their time doing??? Haiduc (talk) 11:15, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

• Read it again with more care. I said even the appearance. Guy (Help!) 12:21, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

I don't think Jeffpw is here predominantly to advocate paedophilia, but some of what he is doing has the strong appearance of militant activism. Excuse me? I am not here to advocate for pedophilia at all, and I strongly resent the insuination that I am in any way doing so. If you look at my approx 10,000 edits, including one FA and 2 GAs, you'll see a minuscule percentage relating in any to pedophilism. I am anti-pedophilia, though I should not have to be forced to state this for the record.I have monitored the NAMBLA article against both pro and anti-pedo edits, to revert vandalism, and have dome the same on the Pederasty related articles. Brenneman has now threatened to block me for disruption if I continue to participate in what I see has been a civil manner. I feel threatened and intimidated by this post. And I feel besmirched by Guys quote above about my participation here. The atmosphere regarding this area of articles has become poisonous, indeed, and I do not think it is my doing at all. Is this what Misplaced Pages has come to? Jeffpw (talk) 12:20, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

I said militant activism, I meant militant LGBT activism, not pro-paedophilia activism. There is a small overlap at the margins, and this is a key part of the problem. Guy (Help!) 12:22, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

I don't think that's what was meant by turning down the heat ;) Haiduc, I see nothing in the above post that accuses you of a pro-pedophilia bias. Guy was making a general observation about the need to be extra careful not to even give that impression when editing such controversial subjects. EyeSerene 12:26, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

To be sure, I think worrying about appearences rather than content isn't a great way to edit. If Jeff gets militant sometimes, well, maybe sometimes we need that. Dev920 (Have a nice day!) 12:34, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

Appearances are very sensitive on this subject. Very sensitive. Guy (Help!) 12:35, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

What 'we', Dev920? Misplaced Pages is not the place for advocacy. The notion that anyone is here to push an agenda makes me extremely uncomfortable (and, while I'm sure you weren't serious, your post does illustrate Guy's point about giving the impression of soapboxing, even unintentionally). EyeSerene 12:42, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

Why have you linked to my name? (genuine question) And I get that people do get all icky over pederasty, but it's not pedophilia. And neither Haiduc or Jeff is a pedophile, they are long, long established editors with an interest in editing pederasty. They really shouldn't have to worry about being accused of a pro-pedo slant, their cumulative efforts here surely show that this isn't the case. Dev920 (Have a nice day!) 12:55, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

Heh, I just copy/pasted it from your post in edit view (now you've pointed it out though, I've realised I do that pretty much at random - I didn't, for example, with Guy. No idea why!). However, I think the point being made was not relating to pedophilia so much as militancy in other areas, to the point where it becomes difficult to accept edits in good faith because they give the impression of being decided by a personal agenda. This can be true of any group: LGBT, animal rights, nationalist, religious... the list is endless. I think appearances do matter because of this, and it's difficult to claim neutrality if we aren't seen to be behaving that way. EyeSerene 13:11, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

Because emotions run high in editing the Historical pederastic couples article, it's difficult to pinpoint the fault of a single editor. One the one hand, I agree that the citations need to be immaculate and notes should be extensive. However, editors who are either unhappy with the outcome of the AfD or eager to see the article make vast improvements in a small amount of time, are removing content and claiming the sources do not back up the claims when I doubt they have read the sources. Then it rather dissolves into arguing over actions rather than content. I know I have not read the sources, so I am unable to make commentary on them. I have been questioned about content in other articles I have written, though, and when that happens I find my source and copy the passage I used verbatim on the talk page and discuss it there. What might help is if Haiduc posts a timeline or an estimate of how far he thinks he will get in improving the article in a reasonable amount of time. --Moni3 (talk) 12:48, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

• I just want to state clearly here that, due to the level of intimidation I am feeling (On Haiduc's talk page, Brenneman actually implies that I will be banned if I continue participating), and the threat of blockage for supporting another Misplaced Pages under attack from all sides, I am now withdrawing myself entirely from any of these debates. Call me a coward, but I am under enough stress without adding to is by trying to help a disputed article. I shall now confine my edits to Mary Poppins or The Sound Of Music....oh wait, they involve children too. Damn. OK, I'll just try to tidy Angie Dickinson's bio. That shouldn't provoke any storms of controversy. If it does, I'll just give wiki smiles to all and sundry. Wiki cheer promotes a collegial environment, no? Jeffpw (talk) 12:59, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

• I think we all need to take a deep breath and step back for a while. Take the disputed content out of the article, leave it on the talk page, and all just do something else for 48 hours. There's an essay jsut created at WP:TABOO which makes a lot of sense in this context. Guy (Help!) 14:33, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

• • There is no reason to stop now, and I think the solution is to focus our attention more closely on what is really going on. It is not pedophilia that neeeds to be exposed here, but intimidation. I feel bullied by Brenneman's behaviour, and while my feelings are between me and my analyst, unfortunately there are objective reasons for my reaction. His gutting of the Hpc article and his belligerent response to my restoration of the Tilden entry are ample evidence, as is his even more troubling equivocation and sparring over my exposure of his behavior. The "appearance of pedophilia" accusation above was more fuel on that particular fire. It is a particularly insidious attack in that there is no defense against it, like Bush's assuring the American public that there is nothing to worry about at Guantanamo because they are all bad guys. Truthiness, welcome to Misplaced Pages. I am not good at chapter-and-verse polemics, so I will leave it at that. I do want to add that it seems that the suite of pederasty articles is like some sort of glue trap for sub-standard administrators (FCYTravis and Brenneman are just some of the more egregious examples) who come in and act abusively. I can only ask you people to monitor yourselves, and each other. Haiduc (talk) 15:04, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

Apropos of this conversation, please note Talk:Historical_pederastic_couples#Details_of_Haiduc.27s_mischaracterization_of_DeFord, discussing Haiduc's mischaracterization of Frank DeFord's book "The Triumphs and the Tragedy", and this talk page, where Haiduc triumphantly cites Cocteau being "devastated" at the death of his friend as strong evidence that he must have been having a sexual relationship with him. This editor has a problem accurately summarizing sources, and it is negatively affecting many, many articles. Nandesuka (talk) 14:42, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

• Jeez, that smells of WP:OR for sure. But I return to my point above: disputed text out of mainspace and onto talk, and everybody step back for 48 hours. If necessary we should lock down talk for a while, just to make it happen, I believe. There are too many trees for the wood to be evident, and I think some space is required. Guy (Help!) 14:55, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

• • Don't put words in my mouth, Nandesuka. You have a problem with objectivity and the mischaracterization ofmy edits. Haiduc (talk) 15:04, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

• You say? I don't see any evidence of Nandesuka having an agenda here. You've been open about yours, which is much appreciated, but your expressed agenda means that you need to be especially sensitive to the concerns of other editors who do not share your minority perspective, per WP:NPOV. Valid concerns have been politely expressed by editors in good standing, regarding your interpretation of sources. In this case I strongly recommend that you present your sources on talk, and wait to see whether there is consensus to support your interpretation. Agitating for what looks to a number of people like a novel synthesis is likely to cause you trouble. Guy (Help!) 16:03, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

Indefinite block request for 76.227.110.225

76.227.110.225 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log)

User on a rampage of repeated vandalism, deliberate misinformation and page blanking. Thanks for the help. Best, A Sniper (talk) 06:01, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

I don't think an indefinite block is in order, but a couple months would do. JBsupreme (talk) 06:12, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

For one, A Sniper, please don't put fake block templates on the user's page. An admin looking at it might not realize that the user has not already been blocked. That aside, I looked at the contributions and there's no obvious vandalism. I have insufficient knowledge of the topic of Mötley Crüe‎ to have any idea if his claims there are correct, but his other edits look like good faith edits so without further information, I have no reason to conclude anything about these edits (other than a 3RR violation). (I'm not saying you are wrong, just that I don't know anything about this particular genre of music.) --B (talk) 06:15, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

I'm very sorry but although I have been an editor for at least two years, I did not know that an admin must do the block - this is why I placed the template. I then read the policy, after finding the template, and placed this admin request. In any event, this IP user was deliberately placing false and misleading information (vandalism) into the article, as well as many other articles, all in rapid successsion. They blanked my home page and the home page of another user also trying to revert, thus I felt the block was justified. Best, A Sniper (talk) 06:54, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

I have blocked the IP for 12 hours for edit warring, and warned the other pair for the same. Kevin (talk) 06:22, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

• IPs are almost never blocked indefinitely as the user behind the IP is likely to change. Stifle (talk) 13:11, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

68.160.248.199, 141.155.157.83, an inappropriate username and Nefbmn

There has been a litany of inappropriate edits from the above user accounts. In particular, a large number of edits feature defamatory content and jingoistic opinions. Nefbmn needs to be watched for any further signs of abuse and blocked indefinitely if caught. The following lists of contributions say it all: .
It should be noted that this account has been indefinitely blocked for gross violations of the username policy.
A suspected sockpuppetry report for this user can be found here. David873 (talk) 06:50, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

I've given User:Nefbmn a final warning. If it continues I'll block him. However, I highly suggest that you stop feeding the troll and get on with whatever editing you usually do. Cheers. --lifebaka (talk - contribs) 13:31, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

I've blocked for 1 week, so as to prevent more damage to the site. Bearian (talk) 14:11, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

User:JimBobUSA

I have copied this from archive 451, due to a lack of action on this matter. Grant | Talk 14:03, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

This user has been warned before about deleting a credible/reliable reference (a long article from the London Review of Books) from Yamashita's gold. He has given up on that, but is now attempting to delete the same reference from Japanese war crimes, while misrepresenting it as a "novel". I think a stern warning from someone other than me may help. Thanks. Grant | Talk 00:22, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

I'd be happy to do it if you could get me the diffs of the previous warnings, and the diff for removing the ref from the Japanese War Crimes article. Beam 00:29, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

I think it has to do with the following DIFFs:

• Yamashita's gold:
• Japanese war crimes:

I see a lot of reverts, but this is something that doesn't require administrator attention at the moment. Have you tried dispute resolution? seicer | talk | contribs 03:50, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

Agreed, WP:RFC or simple talking on the articles in question/user talk might be more apt at this time. Wisdom89 _{(T / )} 06:55, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

I support User:Grant65 on this. For many, many months, User:JimBobUSA is trying to eradicate all references to this topic on Misplaced Pages and discussions have provided nothing... as you will see here ] ] ] Yamashita's gold has even been protected without any success : ]. --Flying tiger (talk) 22:35, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

There does seem to be something of a campaign being waged. I was saying to someone the other day that POV warriors have the more obscure areas to themselves because they can turn anything into a content dispute which outside admins cannot comprehend due to the specificity of the subject and the nature of the points being argued, and are allowed to drive away valuable contributors with knowledge in the area (such as Grant65 in this case) for years until they finally meet their match, get shoved into a corner, sockpuppet or stalk to get out of it and get blocked for that. It's a phenomenon which occurs time and time and time again - effectively a way of gaming our entire policy structure by testing the limits' of our volunteer admins' knowledge. The last one in my general area of interest to get blocked has now shown his true colours now that he is banned, by vandalising and stalking from an entire stack of IPs and usernames, and another one in my project, who had free rein in the place for 14 months despite *numerous* reports here, which all went nowhere or met with blithe calls for good faith, went the same way when blocked about a year ago.

I wish I had the time and capacity to intervene here, but I'm neck deep in content research at present and only have about 3 weeks before real life becomes busy again. Can someone look into this in more depth? Note: Be careful not to become an "involved editor" if you do, as that will then get used against your capacity to act in the matter. Orderinchaos 01:31, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

This thread seems to sum up the problem with JimBobUSA rather nicely. If JimBobUSA disagrees with a statement, it cannot on any account be included. Even a straightforward statement like "Several historians have stated that Yamashita's gold existed", cited to no less than six sources, is rejected as a "novel narrative".Hesperian 01:35, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

I agree with all of the above. Part of the problem is that any rapport that existed, between me and JimBobUSA, has long since disappeared. I believe that he has breached Wikiquette in many ways, including a general lack of cooperation and repeated wikilawyering. For instance, he did not respond to my suggestion of mediation on January 14. I do not believe it is in anyone's best interests that I deal with him directly and this is why I ask that other admins get involved. Grant | Talk 03:07, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

I've now read the edit histories of the article and talk pages and agree with your stance. JimBobUSA seems to miss the point that Yamashita's gold is about a theory of missing gold — the 1st line says "... alleged loot stolen ..."; the lead also says "The theory has been particularly popularised ...". No-one (as far as I can tell) is saying that the gold exists, just that there are theories that it does. And to say that, one needs to cite these same sources. I see that User:JimBobUSA engages in regular edit warring on a number of articles and despite numerous warnings given, then treats them with contempt (see User talk:JimBobUSA). Moondyne 06:23, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

Exactly. IMO the article is worded somewhat too cautiously, since there is ample evidence that a substantial treasure did exist at one time and was hidden under Yamashita's supervision. This is supported by a good quality, critical source not yet quoted in the article, Thom Burnett, in the Conspiracy Encyclopedia (London: Collins & Brown, 2005), who states: "The Golden Lily hoard in the Philippines is also confirmed..." (p. 219). Golden Lily (Kin no yuri) was the secret Japanese unit that controlled the loot during WW2. It is interesting that Burnett, who is critical of many, if not most conspiracy theories, goes on to question the purported involvement of "famous Americans" in appropriation of the hoard. Grant | Talk 10:39, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

This is redundant. It was been hashed out here once before: http://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/IncidentArchive360#Yamashita.27s_gold Jim (talk) 12:20, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

Which is why its being discussed here again. Moondyne 07:48, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for your reply, Moondyne.

You made mention of the “numerous warnings given” and then referred to my talk page. I would like to point out that all of those warnings are from the same person, Grant65 (starter of this complaint).

I would also like to point out, that the material I removed, and was warned for numerous times by Grant65 is still vacant from the article. Reason being is that novels (fiction) and books that do not contain reference to the article at all make for poor references. Yes, you read that correctly. The frivolous warnings were for removing false references. Hence, that is why I titled them “frivolous warnings” on my user talk page.

This is also noteworthy on the opening of this complaint, where Grant65 states: “This user has been warned before…”. What Grant65 fails to mention, is that he is the one who has done all of the warnings. Dubious in anyone’s book.

In closing, the creditable/reliable reference given for the Japanese war crimes article (the reason for this complaint) notes this about the source being used, the Seagraves novel (I will copy/paste my text from that talk page):

I would also like to point out, that the reference cited for the Looting sub-section makes note that the Seagraves (the sole source for the Looting sub-section) states that the Seagraves are not fully reliable as historians, they have a tendency to overreach and exaggerate, are unreliable on Japan and do not read Japanese.

Chalmers Johnston’s book review (reference given) also points out that the book is full of errors and one of the characters (Lord Ichivara) is an absurdity. Johnston goes on to point out that, the Seagraves sense that they might have a credibility problem, and have taken the unusual step of selling two CDs that support the book. Buy the book, and then buy the documentation afterwards? Jim (talk) 00:21, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

I am going to make a brief exception to my rule about dealing directly with User:JimBobUSA to make three key points: (1) I believe that he is wrong about the CDs supporting Gold Warriors. My information is that they were never sold separately and were an "extra" with a limited number of copies of the book. (2) He misrepresents Johnson's view of the Seagraves, by citing the only passages of Johnson's very long article that are critical of the Seagraves. Johnson is not generally critical of Gold Warriors — far from it. (3) For the benefit of JimBobUSA and others who may be under similar misapprehensions, the main "incident" in question here is his attempt to delete citation of Johnson's article from Japanese war crimes, with edit summaries describing it as a "novel"(!) It plainly is not. Neither is the book it is reviewing. User:JimBobUSA either does not know, or does not care, about the difference between: (i) novels, (ii) scholarly books and (iii) book reviews. Grant | Talk 08:40, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

• "Oh no, not again". What is it about this subject that the conspiracy theorists can't leave it alone? Oh, wait, the answer is in the question, isn't it? Guy (Help!) 14:52, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

Block advisory (review optional)

I just blocked 62.158.64.90 (talk · contribs) for 24 hours. I'm fairly comfortable with the block, given the contribs, but am posting here because they didn't receive the customary four warnings and (as I've protected the talk page from further abuse for 24 hours) won't be able to request an unblock. Dppowell (talk) 14:38, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

Endorse block You know sometimes common sense needs to override repeated warnings. Wildthing61476 (talk) 14:41, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

Fully endorse Four warnings aren't always warranted; page-move vandals are frequently blocked with zero warnings. I see nothing controversial about this block. OhNoitsJamie 14:43, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

I didn't think so, either--just playing it safe. Dppowell (talk) 14:45, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

Endorse, no reason whatsoever to tolerate those sort of edits until the user had been given a level 4 warning. Blocking policy allows for discretion. Good block. EyeSerene 14:46, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

Obvious endorse. I file cases like this under "People who want to be blocked - probably to impress the kid at the next desk". —Wknight94 (talk) 15:06, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

Oppose This was not a page move vandal, and there was only one edit, total, to any but the user's own talk page. The IP user had one vandal edit in an article at 14:22 which merited a higher than level 1 warning, or even an "only warning." The vandal edit was reverted and a warning placed on the vandal's talk page, also at 14:22 . The IP user replaced the warning on his talk page with "FUCK IT!" one minute later . It should have been left at that. The IP user had the right to remove the warning; that just shows that he read it, and it remains in the edit history for other editors to see. The admin placing the warning does not "own" the user's talk page. Instead, Scottydude at 14:24 restored the warning, adding fuel to the fire. The IP user again replaced it at 14:24 with "YOU FUCKING SUCKER!" Rather than allowing a few minutes for tempers to cool, at 14:24 Sean Whitton again reverted the user's talk page to the original warning. The IP user at 14:25 replaced the warning with "FUCK YOU BITCH!" At 14:25 Sean Whitton added an inappropriate warning aginst the user blanking or deleting portions of his own talk page, with a warning he would be blocked if he edited his own talk page to remove content. The IP replaced it at 14:25 with "MOTHERFUCKING BITCHES!" and at 14:27 with that with the less inflammatory "YOU SUCKER!" At 14:27, Dppowell. reverted to the original 14:22 warning, which the IP editor at 14:27 replaced with "FUCK YOU!! I AM ATHEIST HAHAAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!" and finally at 14:28 Dppowell posted a message that the IP editor was blocked. The IP user then replaced the block notice at 14:28 with "STFU BITCH SHUT THE FUCK UP THE FUCK!!! YOU LOSEr11" At 14:26, Dppowell blocked the IP for 24 hours, and posted a block notice at 14:28, then protected the page at 14:29, and reverted from the block notice to the original 14:22 vandalism warning at 14:30, readding the block notice at 14:31. I agree with restoring earlier warnings when a later warning is added, but not just for the sake of restoring them to prove that the admin "owns" the user's talk page. The reversions from the IP users strong language to the earlier warning were unnecessary. The block was unnecessary, and the perceived need for it was brought opn by the drama-creation of swift restoration of the earlier vandal warning, when there had been no more vandalism, other than expletives on the user's talk page. The protection should be lifted and the block should probably be lifted. If it is a blocking offense to have the words "Fuck" or "Bitch" on ones own talk page, then there are lots of such users to start blocking, per a Google search.Edison (talk) 15:51, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

Hmmmm. Why did they keep reverting the removal of the warning? That's no good. Beam 17:05, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

Fully endorse- without question. Toddst1 (talk) 16:27, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

Fully endorse without reservation. I'm not even sure it was necessary to post to WP:ANI but in any case you did the right thing. JBsupreme (talk) 16:29, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

Endorse block, user showed no intent to contribute constructively. NawlinWiki (talk) 16:32, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

Educating, counselling and/or warning users is always essential; but it does not preclude the need for emergency measures to be imposed for users engaging in strongly egregious misconduct and showing no sign whatsoever of making any positive contributions. Endorse. Ncmvocalist (talk) 16:48, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

User:RopeRil

I just reverted some template vandalism by this user. Then went to user's talk page to post warning. Appears to be a Grawp sock. Can someone please block immediately? Thanks. – ukexpat (talk) 14:57, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

Thank you  – ukexpat (talk) 15:14, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

Content Dispute / Edit Warring over the term "British Isles"

Hi, an ongoing content dispute betwee, myself and User:TharkunColl. Tharky is aware that the term British Isles is a contentious term and that an unspoken rough agreement was reached on not introducing it into articles that didn't already use the term. He is now inserting the term in many articles, without references - see Ye Olde Trip To Jerusalem and Salve Regina. In addition, he is reverting edits that result in the removal of the term, even though the term cannot be referenced and references are provided for the alternative edits. See Furry Dance, Porteous family, Scottish Green Party and others.

Despite many attempts to discuss, several edits are made with personal comments such as "reverted political removal of term".

Tharky knows the policies as well as anyone on Misplaced Pages. He is aware of what constitutes a good reference, and is aware that the references provided for Furry Dance are not good enough. There are no references for the other articles. His editing is extremely disruptive and in breach of policy. I've politely asked for references and waited to see what he can produce. But he simply ignores the requests while the article is left in the state he wants, or starts an edit war over articles that aren't.

--HighKing (talk) 16:37, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

I am aware of no such policy regarding the use of British Isles - Bardcom/HighKing has mentioned it to me before, but has signally failed to point to the relevant discussion or consensus, despite my repeated requests (oh yes, that's right, it's "unspoken"... ho hum). It is he who is disrupting this entire project by his poltically motivated campaign to remove British Isles from the whole of Misplaced Pages. TharkunColl (talk) 16:42, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

Who says "British Isles" is a contentious term? That's common usage. Baseball Bugs 16:45, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

Exactly. TharkunColl (talk) 16:47, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

(I'm not an admin, edit conflict)Hi. The semi-edit war, as far as I'm aware of, going on in the article Lough Neagh may also be of interest. Thanks. ~AH1 16:49, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

HighKing, do you use Misplaced Pages for anything unrelated to the term "British Isles"? All your edits, and all your disputes seem to be centered around this term. Chillum 16:51, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

A glance at User:HighKing identifies the issue. From a Irish Republic perspective, the term would be rather galling. It is no doubt politically incorrect there.LeadSongDog (talk) 16:53, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

For explaination in case people on this board can't tell due to it not being explained at the start of the thread- the complainant who started the thread is User:Bardcom who has conveniently changed his name after his recent two blocks over his "British Isles" fixation and edit warring, and has previously been the subject of an RfC and listed for potential Arbcom or something. Sticky Parkin 16:58, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

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