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This article was nominated for deletion on November 5, 2006. The result of the discussion was keep.

This article was nominated for deletion on 2006/11/28. The result of the discussion was keep.

Archives

Archive 1 Archive 2 Archive 3

Has anyone got a reference for the claim about Thomas Blom Hansen?

I was just adding some new content to the article when I noticed this statement Thomas Blom Hansen, a sociologist at the University of Edinburgh, has written Naik's style of memorizing the Qur'an and hadith literature in various languages, and travelling abroad to debate Islam with theologians, has made him extremely popular in Muslim circles. I've tried google-ing for Hansen in the current context and come up with nothing except some personal blogs and articles which have the same statement printed VERBATIM. Does anyone have any citations/references for this? 'Abd el 'Azeez (talk) 13:18, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

Please look at the references section. Elazeez, I disagree with the addition of more content sourced to primary sources - it is only acceptable incases where Naik is explicitly talking about himself. If this is not the case, and we are instead making deductions on the basis of primary sources, then this material is original research and should be removed. Additionally, there should certainly be no reliance upon primary sources in an article, which I feel is a trend developing here. ITAQALLAH 13:28, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

Secondary sources are very important in helping us to objectively evaluate what should be in a BLP and what should not. Some go so far as to suggest that only material in print biographies should be used, but that is not a consensus view. We need to be thoughtful, caring, and careful. We have time to get it right. Find the best sources and include the most encyclopedic claims. WAS 4.250 (talk) 00:54, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

In regards to my revision :-
Hmm... You've got a worthy point there; I guess its best to look for some reliable secondary sources before proposing the inclusion of this content again. 'Abd el 'Azeez (talk) 07:39, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

Singh

I performed this edit because, on a search, I couldn't find any reference in the source article to the claim that Singh had criticised Naik for a claim that "Eating pork makes one behave like a pig". Singh does take issue with Naik's characterization of pigs as unclean animals (not big news--Naik is a muslim, Singh is not) but does not represent Singh as making the claim quoted in the article. Please check the source and verify. --Anticipation of a New Lover's Arrival, The 00:59, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

Agreed. The cited article too doesn't show Sinhg saying anything about the claim made viz Singh also expressed surprise at Naik's belief that "Eating pork makes one behave like a pig". (No more Original Research please Agnistus ) 'Abd el 'Azeez (talk) 07:37, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

Sub-sections

I created the sub-sections, because it improves the readability of the article a lot. They are removed by another user because a) they are Prospective Troll Magnets b) Can't mention ALL his visits here so no cherry-picking.

It may be true. However, in this way medium-interested people wouldn't be eager to read this amount of continuous text. Furthermore, I believe the mentioned visits of Naik caused some stirr in the press, so they are noteworthy enough to get an apart sub-section. So let us vote: who agrees or disagrees with subsections?

I agree.Jeff5102 (talk) 09:37, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

I disagree because I feel that making sections like these could give an impression like Dr. Naik's delivered only these (3) lectures and all of them have been subjects of controversy. Moreover since cannot include information about all his lectures/visits, it might seem that these 3 were the most note-worthy ones with the criticisms being the highlights. Besides, if we have sections criticising his visits, they might become prospective troll magnets over a period of time with editors concentrating on adding more to those respective sections rather than to the article as a whole. 'Abd el 'Azeez (talk) 11:06, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

I do not understand why you disagree. You made some subsections yourself a few weeks ago at Jimmy Swaggart: . What is the difference between the subsections thre and over here?Jeff5102 (talk) 15:48, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

We cannot make subsections for the same reasons that I've cited above, Jeff. To summarize, if we are to make sub-sections for Dr. Naik's speeches, then why not incorporate a section for all of them instead of a just these three which have been subjects of controversy? 'Abd el 'Azeez (talk) 07:22, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

That is a good idea. As long as they are noteworthy, and well referenced, I cannot see any objection. By the way, are there any written transcripts of his debates? I saw some of them on youtube, but that is no valid source.Jeff5102 (talk) 07:48, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

The only problem with that, Jeff, is that there are too many of them out there. (I heard the number being around 800+). And you're right, YouTube wont qualify as a valid source too; but then if you've been reading the archives out here you'll see that most editors here have reached a consensus at including only that content which has reliable secondary sources supporting it. Hence for any more details of Dr. Naik's lectures to get into this article, they would need reliable media coverage. For these and similar reasons I was against the idea of the seggregation of statements in Lectures and Visits into separate subsections. 'Abd el 'Azeez (talk) 11:44, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

I don't particularly mind sub-sections, but one must be aware not to present the article in a way that leans towards controversy. The only views of Naik and incidences concerning him that need be mentioned are ones that have been covered in third party reliable sources. ITAQALLAH 17:27, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

Ofcourse, Itaq. Your religious persuasion is well-known in Misplaced Pages circles. - Agnistus (talk) 20:35, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

Comment on content, not the contributor. ITAQALLAH 00:31, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

Exactly. I never thought that lay-out-questions could sprarkle such bitter personal attacks. Too badJeff5102 (talk) 12:12, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

Hi Jeff. I've removed the sections for now as I don't think they're particularly necessary. ITAQALLAH 15:45, 1 July 2008 (UTC)

Although I must admit that you are right Itaqallah (regarding WP:NPA), I must say that as far as you are concerned; something more appropriate (for you) would be "Comment on the content, not the censor". - Agnistus (talk) 00:05, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

Comment Deleted. Was slightly angry. My apologies to you, Itaqallah. - Agnistus (talk) 00:07, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

Please just calm down before you post. Don't make personal attacks and then strike them out a minute later - repeatedly doing this starts to look pointish. ITAQALLAH 16:02, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

WP:POINT has nothing to do with that comment. - Agnistus (talk) 20:06, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

It has everything to do with habitually making unacceptable comments and then striking them immediately afterwards. ITAQALLAH 15:45, 1 July 2008 (UTC)

You need to re-read WP:POINT. Especially section 2.1 - Agnistus (talk) 11:03, 2 July 2008 (UTC)

Please avoid adding material with unreliable (primary) sources

Misplaced Pages rules (WP:RS) prohibits adding content with primary sources, especially on a BLP (see WP:BLP). There were several sentences and even a while paragraph in the article sourced to "irf.net". Since irf.net is a primary source, it cannot be used; thus I removed such material. Not only was the material added back without any discussion on the talk page; another primary source was attached to it, further violating WP:RS and WP:BLP. I kindly request all editors/contributors to follow Misplaced Pages guidelines and refrain from re-inserting content with unreliable sources in the future, until you can provide reliable 3rd-party sources for them. Thank you. - Agnistus (talk) 00:00, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

Do not remove reliably sourced content.

Please do not remove reliably sourced content from the article without proper reasons and discussion. The Indian Express is well-known mainstream publication. Declaring such high-quality 3rd-party sources to be unreliable, and removing content with such fallacious claims is nothing more than POV enforcement. It would be best if contributors read Misplaced Pages guidelines (WP:RS and WP:BLP) before editing. Thank you. - Agnistus (talk) 20:13, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

Like RegenerateThis said, the source is merely an op-ed. Secondly, why do you insert totally unsourced negative material on a BLP while on the other hand insisting on reliable sourcing? ITAQALLAH 21:11, 6 July 2008 (UTC)

The section "Criticism" has been removed. Secondly; as I said before "The Indian Express is well-known mainstream publication. Declaring such high-quality 3rd-party sources to be unreliable, and removing content with such fallacious claims is nothing more than POV enforcement.". Even if it is an op ed, that does not make the article an unreliable source, since it has been published on such well-known mainstream newspaper. - Agnistus (talk) 00:26, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

The article on the "Indian Express" in my view, qualifies as originating comes from a reliable source. Does the fact that it's an op-ed detract in any way from this ?

My personal opinion is that the quote refers to one of the most controversial and well-known aspects of Naik's ideas, and that it should stay. Giordaano (talk) 08:20, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

Yes, the fact that the article is an op-ed does detract from its reliability. It should only really be used for attributing the opinions of the author, certainly not acceptable for saying anything about Naik. ITAQALLAH 17:33, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

I disagree. The paper which includes the op-ed does have editorial oversight (per WP:RS) and so in my opinion may be used for reporting facts. And those fragments, in which the "Indian Express" quotes Naik, it uses facts, doesn't it? Of course, the conclusions drawn by Sudheendra Kulkarni cannot seen as facts, but the facts he uses can be used. Unless these quotes were disputed, ut I couldn't find such.Jeff5102 (talk) 21:19, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

I concur. Agnistus (talk) 22:20, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

Please do not remove content sourced to reliable 3rd-party sources.

Several sections of the article were removed despite attempts to restore them (). The reasons provided in the edit summary for the deletions are invalid and fail to explain how the information is "irrelevent" (see ) despite being published on a National newspaper (The Hindu). Reckless content deletion such as these (, , e.t.c.) falls under the category of vandalism. Please understand that Misplaced Pages is not censored to satisfy the particular interests of certain () groups. I request all editors (esp. User: Elazeez) to follow Misplaced Pages guidelines while editing. Thank you. - Agnistus (talk) 21:45, 11 July 2008 (UTC)

I'll answer rapid-fire to Agnistus' points to save time (and hopefully, some space too) 1.) User:Elazeez was away for the weekend and hence the delay of 3 days in this reply. 2.) 'Irrelevant' connotes irrelevance. I fail to understand how the controversial views of a certain tabloid (which is not the National Newspaper of India BTW) are worthy enough of consideration. Even if for argument's sake I agree that they might deserve any space on WP, to be frank the article only seems like a polemical piece by some critic who's bent on painting Dr. Naik in the same hue as some terrorist organizations. C'mon, can't YOU see the blatantly visible baggage of hate against Naik the article comes with? It's like some nutcase saying Agnistus believes in Hinduism, which is same religious ideology which hardened terrorist Maya Dolas followed all through his career as an extortionist. Don't get me wrong, I hate Dolas but I totally respect your religious views (See Qur'an 6:108 which beckons muslims to respect other communities). You just can't go about likening people good and bad over some view which co-incides amongst them.3.) BTW, there are many incidents when a certain newspaper article contains defamatory content and then (if there's cry over it) there's a public apology printed by the same tabloid a few days later. Have you checked up if there was an apology in any of the days after the printing of the article? 4.) My edit summaries WERE explanatory enough AND I've also called for a discussion on the talk page. A call for discussion is something which you've violated. (See the Bold-Revert-Discuss rule on WP). 5.) Regarding that SlashDot article you've linked about censoring: The article starts off with The New York Times is reporting that Muslim groups are attempting to censor Misplaced Pages because of images of Muhammad contained in the article about him (PBUH) and rants about some muslims not approving of images of Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) being added to the article ] on WP. Agnistus, have you considered the to Lanka? Please do check out the edit histories and discussions on the talk page for the article on WP. No I'm not belittling the mythological significance of the natural formation, all I'm saying is that there are some things which do inflame certain people; and if they protest against those things, you and I don't need to object when a.) it doesn't concern us and b.) we cannot comprehend its significance. It would be diabolic on my part if I used the controversy surrounding the article on Rama's Setu (known as Adam's Bridge too) against you or any other co-editors saying Hindus are trying to censor wikipedia. I am hoping you understand my points Agnistus. I will now proceed to delete that content and expect it to not be re-instated without a consensus here. 'Abd el 'Azeez (talk) 09:47, 14 July 2008 (UTC)

It's not fully conclusive whether Rama Sethu was a natural formation, despite it seeming likely, though this is hardly comparable to censoring Muhammad's article which has been a far bigger issue and entirely based on religious reasons rather than logic. Trips (talk) 02:57, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

I agree. (with Trips) - Agnistus (talk) 10:41, 18 July 2008 (UTC).

BTW, I found a comment on Slashdot (see ) and feel like quoting it. Quote: "This being Islam we're talking about, it propably won't take too long before death threats start flying, and it's always possible some lunatic will decide to carry them out, or take less drastic action, such as a cyber-attack against the Misplaced Pages servers ... Cue a hundred replies claiming that Islam is a religion of peace and tolerance; and maybe it is - I wouldn't know, since I haven't read their holy book. All I know is that it certainly seems attract lots of bloodthirsty lunatics who use their religion as an excuse to live up to their murderous nature."

I reinstated the part fromThe Hindu. THe paper looks reliable enough to me.If there is an apology printed for this article, please let me know.Jeff5102 (talk) 12:16, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

Jeff5102, it is not the The Hindu a reliable source 'feeling' that's being questioned. It is 'undue weight?' that needs an answer. Please understand that 'please let me know' is not a good enough excuse to put up a polemical statement in BLP. Since there's a call for discussion over the issue here, according to WP:BLP, there is a need of a consensus before restoration of deleted content takes place. Quoting WP:BLP#Presumption_in_favor_of_privacy Misplaced Pages articles that present material about living people can affect their subjects' lives. Misplaced Pages editors who deal with these articles have a responsibility to consider the legal and ethical implications of their actions when doing so. An important rule of thumb when writing biographical material about living persons is "do no harm". It is not Misplaced Pages's purpose to be sensationalist, or to be the primary vehicle for the spread of titillating claims about people's lives. BLPs must be written conservatively, with regard for the subject's privacy. Can't you see that presenting a controversial article by The Hindu which likens Dr. Zakir Naik to a terrorist organization can harm his public image? 'Abd el 'Azeez (talk) 06:35, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

You have got a point at your undue weight-argument.With regards, Jeff5102 (talk) 08:34, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

Abdel, until you find an apology for the article published on The Hindu, you cannot remove the material from the page. There is something called WP:NPOV, that articles have to adhere to. Quote NPOV: "All Misplaced Pages articles and other encyclopedic content must be written from a neutral point of view (NPOV), representing fairly, and as far as possible without bias, all significant views that have been published by reliable sources. This is non-negotiable and expected of all articles, and of all article editors." An article published by a National newspaper (yes, The Hindu is one) is an extremely reliable 3rd-party source. (WP:RS and WP:V says "Material from mainstream news organizations is welcomed"). Regarding "A call for discussion is something which you've violated." and "I will now proceed to delete that content and expect it to not be re-instated without a consensus here."; please understand that in Misplaced Pages, reverting vandalism does not require any discussion or consensus on the talk page. - Agnistus (talk) 10:39, 18 July 2008 (UTC).

1) Its not upto me to find any counter-arguments Agnistus. Being neutral also involves adhering to the policy about WP:BLP#Presumption_in_favor_of_privacy which says Misplaced Pages articles that present material about living people can affect their subjects' lives. Misplaced Pages editors who deal with these articles have a responsibility to consider the legal and ethical implications of their actions when doing so. An important rule of thumb when writing biographical material about living persons is "do no harm". 2) The Hindu is NOT the National Newspaper of India. Nevermind that claim about a 3rd party that you've made though. 'Abd el 'Azeez (talk) 10:12, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

Agnistus, I am sure you are aware that WP:BLP writes that biographies should be written conservatively. It seems that people have been bloating the section beyond all proportion as if every view of Naik mentioned must be mentioned in intricate detail. You tell us about WP:NPOV, but the spirit of WP:UNDUE - which is to not unduly focus on any aspect of Naik - has been omitted from your comments. Please don't be under the impression that removing such excess constitutes vandalism - it doesn't. ITAQALLAH 15:59, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

I have trimmed down the section in question to make it more manageable, as it severely outweighed the rest of the article put together. I've removed the masses of text consisting of "Naik said this, Naik said that" because it's of no encyclopedic value - if you want to quote Naik, consider taking it to Wikiquote. A lot of the other text was of marginal significance, the sources mentioning Naik only in passing or not imparting any information of value about Naik (i.e. 'Naik says hijab is good, Naik says rape is bad, Naik says you should have a beard and mustache'). The sub-section headings, which are an illustration that editors have been getting carried away with the content-bloating and not writing conservatively, have been removed. There is still some more work to do in order to bring the content in line with encyclopedic standards. ITAQALLAH 16:35, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

For similar reasons, I've deleted the image Burqa Afghanistan01.jpg. There's no reliable reference to support the claim that Naik has endorsed that style of Burqa (probably Afghanistani) as a kind of Hijaab for muslim women. 'Abd el 'Azeez (talk) 07:40, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

I have not focused on any particular view of Naik. Instead many views have been covered in the article. Each view has been reliably quoted to a reliable 3rd-party source. - Agnistus (talk) 04:19, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

So what? It isn't conservative writing, it imparts no information what would be found in a serious encyclopedia (who cares what he thinks about beards/mustaches??), and constitutes coatracking. ITAQALLAH 18:32, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

BTW a reply to Abdel's statement: "I totally respect your religious views (See Qur'an 6:108 which beckons muslims to respect other communities)". I ask the Muslims, if you can quote 6:108; then why not quote Qu'ran 9:5 (At-Tawba 5) ? This verse truly shows what Islam thinks of non-believers (kafirs). Quote Ibn Kathir's commentary on the verse:

Every religious leader has been an example of peace and goodness, except Muhammed. Jesus, Buddha, e.t.c. never shed blood. On the contrary, Muhammed was a mass-murderer. Not only is the book violent and unjust; but also contains gross scientific errors such as the splitting of the moon. So don't try to cover up this fact and pretend that it is peaceful or just. - Agnistus (talk) 04:19, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

You may wish to consider a blog or forum for this soapboxing, because Misplaced Pages is not the place. ITAQALLAH 18:29, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

And soapboxing it is indeed User:Agnistus; nevermind though, I'll finish off the discussion in this one post InshaAllah. For any more talk on these, please post on my talk page and avoid cluttering this space. Here are your answers: 1) Have you by any chance had the chance to look at an article dealing with Quran9:5 At-Tawba 5 (which BTW is about a war that was taking place between the Muslims and the Pagans... I'm sure no army-general will ask his army to have mercy on the enemy's soldiers) I'm also pretty sure taht if you read (atleast) the WP article it with an open mind, you'll find some answers there. 2) Forget Jesus (PBUH) (since I don't think the Bible is your area of expertise... AND also since I could prove you wrong on that account as well), how about your own Mahabharata which has more verses of killing than the Qur'an itself?. 3) Splitting up of the moon? see Miracles. Like I said before, for more talk on this, speak with me on my talk page. This Zakir Naik talk-page is not a blog or a forum on critique about Islam 'Abd el 'Azeez (talk) 07:41, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

Sections

I feel the "Lectures and Visits" section is very long and needs to be split up into sub-sections soa s to make it more readable. - Agnistus (talk) 12:04, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

I have begun to perform a preliminary splitting up of the section. Comment here on what you feel would be appropriate names for sections, e.t.c. - Agnistus (talk) 12:08, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

Please stop disrupting the article.

Stop disrupting this article.

It is after putitng in much effort that I made this article neat, informative, readable and realibly sourced. Yet some editors (esp. Itaq & Abdel) who seek to censor Misplaced Pages, have continuuasly reverted or deleted content withoutany good reason except POV pushing. Please stop disrupting the article. - Agnistus (talk) 17:24, 26 July 2008 (UTC)

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