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Pro-Russian?

I had no idea Russia was such a pinnacle of human civilization! My god, I've been brainwashed by these American imperialist dogs!

Seriously, though, I think Misplaced Pages's usual anti-US bias, though somewhat understandable in today's world, has reared its head again here. To me at least, this article seems concocted to play down all criticism of Russia, past and present, and spin everything to sound as though any criticism is just the result of Western imperialism. I particularly liked this sentence:

"While many reforms made under Putin’s rule have been generally criticized by Western nations as un-democratic, Putin's leadership over the return of order, stability and progress has won him widespread popularity in Russia, as well as recognition abroad."

Darn those "Westerners", criticizing "reform"! At least the rest of the world gives him "recognition" for the "return" to "progress" that he "led".

Come on folks, I'm not saying Russia is the big evil boogeyman it was painted as during the Cold War, but every nation has problems and it's OK to talk about them openly and honestly, without trying to play them off. 24.174.30.146 (talk) 03:08, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

There are no problems with the example that you have provided, Putin was the Head of State in a period of political stability, economic growth and a considerable improvement in public order, if only accounted for by the much increased numbers of policemen patrolling the streets. However, at the same time, there was a reduction in "democracy" in that electible candidates have largely become Kremlin's candidates (which still has not stopped an occasional Communist politician winning a mayoral election); and the was increased intrusion into privacy, freedom of speech and assembly -- which have drawn widespread criticism from the West, but only limited criticism from within Russia itself.

Nowhere does the article imply that Russia is problem-free and generally a paradise that everyone should move to.158.143.215.84 (talk) 20:25, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

"Come on", "seriously", do you think that US is "a pinnacle of civilization"? Somehow nobody thinks this way outside US (I guess this will be too a huge surprise to you, especially if you get most of your information from US TV and US newspapers - just guessing based on your Texas IP-address 24.174.xx.xx...) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.237.244.226 (talk) 02:55, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

Children

I was surprised to find nothing in this article about child porn or child abuse (beating children). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.165.242.219 (talk) 03:56, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

Does it have anything to do with Russia? As far as I know, there is child porn, and beating of children in every country. EliAS 15:51, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

I exert corporal punishment on my kids here, in US, if thats what you're pointing at, and I know many other people who do. As for child porn, you probably know better. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 165.91.10.69 (talk) 23:08, 14 June 2008 (UTC)

Problems

I have removed several problems with the article:

This table contradicts other sources about the size of the Soviet economy by saying that it was $500 billion at the time of the Soviet collapse. The CIA factbook and other sources say the size of the Soviet economy in 1990 was $2.65 trillion or at least $2 trillion at the time of its collapse, of which Russia accounted for something like 60%.

"a 150% increase in real rates" -

It doesn't say this in the source.

"The UN estimates that about 12.1% of Russians live on less than 2$(PPP) per day according to their most recent available data between 1990 - 2005, most of whom are pensioners and low skilled workers in depressive regions." -

This data is outdated. It's based on data between 1990-2005, when the average wage was several times lower than it is now.

"As the Soviet Union, Russia was traditionally very strong in basketball. At the moment they have various players in the NBA, notably Andrei Kirilenko, although they are not considered as much of a basketball force as some of their Eastern European counterparts such as Serbia or Lithuania. However in 2007, Russia defeated world champions Spain to win Eurobasket 07.

After the post-soviet rot of football in Russia, it has recently undergone a huge revival. Not only is the Russian system producing more and more talented Russian players (evident in Russia's fantastic form on the international stage), but the Russian league, with a new injection of funds from the government and various companies, is now the wealthiest in Eastern Europe and has attracted much foreign talent as well as Russian talent. Russian clubs have had great success in European competition recently: CSKA Moscow won the UEFA cup in 2005 and Zenit St. Petersburg repeated this feat in 2008." -

Besides a couple of facts like winning Eurobasket in 2007 and the UEFA cup in 2005 and 2008, this is original research and opinion.--Berkunt (talk) 00:32, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

Sigh not this again. That chart is based on nominal GDP, you're talking about PPP GDP. Two very different measures. Look at the source of the image, and in the future remember that according to WP:V wikipedia requires verifiability not truth (meaning you can't remove reliably sourced information based on what you personally believe). Krawndawg (talk) 03:25, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

No, if you read the sources I provided they do not say the Soviet Union's GDP is based on purchasing power parity methods. When you have sources contradicting each other then you can't put one set of information that is directly contradicted by another (several, in fact) source. This nominal GDP table is misleading anyway because it implies that Russia's economy is 2.5 times larger than it was during Soviet times when in fact it has only recently recovered to the Soviet level according to this source (and others I have read) - ("After a decade of growth, Russia is still only back to the level it reached just before the fall of the Soviet Union" (Feb 28th 2008) )--Berkunt (talk) 04:56, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

Again, you're talking about purchasing power. They might use the term "international dollars" instead of purchasing power, but it's definitely not in US dollars or "official exchange rate" as the CIA factbook puts it. Look at this list and compare it with this one and you'll start to see what I'm talking about. The Russian economy in PPP surpassed 2 trillion in 2007 (hence it surpassed the Soviet economy in PPP), in nominal its still only 1.3 trillion. You can check the IMF website and see the entire history of Russia's GDP growth in both nominal and PPP (though I think they base their nominal figures on current US exchange rate, so the nominal GDP in 1992 would be even lower than 500 billion). If there are any contradictions, it's the fault of the other figure and the fact that it doesn't say what method of measurement it uses. That should be fixed, rather than removing a reliably sourced chart (The BBC knows more than you or I). I don't see anything contradictory in the actual article anyways. Could you point out what's being contradicted? Krawndawg (talk) 16:18, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

I also just checked that CIA factbook link and it doesn't give any GDP figures for the USSR. It gives GNP figures, but that's completely different.Krawndawg (talk) 16:29, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

Regardless, my second point was that it should be a purchasing power parity graph anyway because money wasn't as important in the Soviet Union as in countries with market economies because the government controlled all means of production and received all revenue from enterprises, that is why it is better to put a purchasing power parity graph rather than a nominal GDP graph. That is why all sources that compare the size of the Soviet and US economies ay that the Soviet economy was about 50% of the size of the US economy, or $2.6 trillion. If they used "nominal" figures it would be more like 10-20% of the US economy but nobody says this because it is more valuable to compare output rather than exchange rate, especially since money wasn't as important in the Soviet Union as in countries with market economies. For instance, we don't write on the Soviet Union article that the size of its economy was only $500 billion, do we? Neither does the CIA. The nominal GDP table from the BBC is misleading because it relies on the exchange rate rather than the output of goods and thus implies that Russia's economy is 2.5 times larger than it was during Soviet times when in fact it has only recently recovered to the Soviet level in real terms. It is better to compare their economies in real terms, ie the actual value of goods produced compared to each other, rather than based on exchange rate.--Berkunt (talk) 04:26, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

I understand where you're coming from, but that's entirely based on the assumption that the reader is only interested in comparing Russia to other countries. Nominal GDP is important in its own right, so unless you have a PPP chart to replace that one, why remove it altogether? It's still useful information about Russia's economy and shows the recession/crisis/boom throughout the years, which is the most important part in my opinion. I don't think it's misleading because a PPP chart would still show the same general trend, just with different numbers. Krawndawg (talk) 22:59, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

As Doopdoop agreed with me, a real GDP chart is needed, not because it is useful in comparing Russia to other countries but to compare it to its past, a nominal chart is misleading because it says that the Russian economy is 2.5 times larger than at the dissolution of the Soviet Union when in real terms the Russian economy has just recently recovered from the trauma of the 1990s.--Berkunt (talk) 04:17, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

Doopdoop has no idea what he's talking about as is clearly evident in all of his posts. He's just on the bandwagon of "lets remove anything positive about Russia from the article for any random reason we can think of". But anyhow, do you have such a graph that shows PPP? I was thinking about making one myself using the same format but haven't gotten around to it yet. I won't bother if you can supply one however. Krawndawg (talk) 05:12, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

Hows that? I just want to add that when you say the economy recently recovered from what it was at the collapse of the Soviet Union, I'm pretty sure that includes every country in the USSR at the time, and Russia was only about a bit over half of the total Soviet economy (which makes sense if you do the math according to IMF Russia figures, 1.16 trillion x2 etc..) The chart isn't going to be able to reflect that recovery. And also, when people say it's just recovering from the 90s, that's referring to lost growth. Again, that can't really be reflected in a gdp chart, unless you can find some figures that would reflect this.Krawndawg (talk) 23:15, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

Much better, but could you please make it start at 0 rather than 700 billion? Now if you don't click on the chart to enlarge it, it looks like the GDP (PPP) has grown fourfold, which is misleading. Colchicum (talk) 23:24, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

Just look at the numbers, 1.1 trillion to 2.1 trillion isn't fourfold. The chart would have to be gigantic if I start from 0. looks kind of silly.. Krawndawg (talk) 23:36, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

No, the last one is better and doesn't look silly at all. Unfortunately in order to look at the numbers one would need to enlarge the chart. That's what I mean. Colchicum (talk) 23:41, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

The chart will be large enough in the article to see the numbers without clicking it. It will look like it does in the Putin article.

I saw those IMF figures before but I did not want to put them in because the figures show that the economy basically fully recovered all the GDP it lost in two years - the economy was in recession up until 1998, then by 2000 it shows it back up to the Soviet level. This seems misleading or incorrect because the economy was a mess in 2000 and the standard of living was well below the Soviet level.--Miyokan (talk) 12:54, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

The numbers aren't incorrect, but I agree it can be somewhat misleading/confusing. The economy didn't recover what it lost in two years because you have to take into account for not just the recession, but the gains it should have been making. At an average 5-7% growth per year from '92-'00, the economy in '00 should have been about 1.7-1.8 trillion. It would look something like this. (We assume the economy wouldn't have grown so rapidly in the Putin years, which with oil prices as they are, very well could be a false assumption). As for standards of living, the difference between 1991 and 2000 is that although the economy was the same size, instead of the countries wealth being distributed to the citizens via socialism, it was being horded by a few individuals for self gain. Just another example of why GDP isn't the best measure of living standards (see also Qatar and Saudi Arabia). Krawndawg (talk) 19:39, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

Russia is a Superpower

Russia is a superpower because they have the economics , the wealth , the diplomatic power , ideological , technological power & advances than any other country besides the United States (look here on why the US is losing its superpower status read here:) reconizes Russia as a superpower , they have the cultural sector and lets not forget their military forces (supreme). Russia is also the largest military arsenal producer in the world (they hold 73% of the world market) and they have the worlds largest nuclear weapons arsenal than another other country (newer & older which many are reconditioned as new again) which is 5 times greater than the US has.

So Russia is a Superpower and lets not forget a Space Superpower, remember Russia has a Mar's mission coming up in 2015 to 2024, also a Moon space station planned for 2015 without NASA but Russia going by itself; which NASA is out of funding due to a poor current US economy, 2007 & 2008.

Russia is a Superpower, that's plenty of facts in the bag to state they are in that position. Now look at the United State's position ), think what they are in for, a lot in the bag on the whole US economy on all sorts of issues, I suggest you read about before making such false insults on Russia. (talk) --Versace11 (talk) 10:20, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

"Superpower" refers to the Soviet Union there. The sentence structure is a bit awkward, yes. --Illythr (talk) 22:09, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

Not true, read above.--Versace11 (talk) 10:20, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

Good points, US is losing its superpower and Russia comes right back again. A good book on Russia as a superpower is called Russia in the 21st Century: The Prodigal Superpower by Steven Rosefielde 2004 The book is about Russia intends to reemerge as a full-fledged superpower before 2010, challenging America and China and potentially threatening a new arms race. Yet with the all the stuff on CNN about them saying Russia is a superpower again, I believe they already are the superpower just without the 15 post Soviet countries they once had. Personally I am impressed considering how broke they were and how Russia paid off its entire deficit in 2006 from 15 years of paying off debt and turning all the post soviet military agencies down in 1991, everything has all been funded for and turned on again, all running again as it did. Really I have to give them hands up for that and Putin, his presidency he is favored almost more than 80% (look at George Bush, he is favored lower than 23%, everybody wants him gone). The Russian’s aren’t dumb, that’s for sure but the United States and the heat of water they are in right now, nothing to laugh about now.

Russia isn't playing around; they are playing their cards carefully. Superpower indeed but the US forcing NATO in post soviet countries over the years is a violation against US's promises to Russia back in 1991 by President Ronald Reagan making a promise and look at it today, NATO is in Czech Rep, Poland, Estonia, Latvia, Romania, Bulgaria, Lithuania and besides Georgia & Ukraine wanting in (just rejected last April 2008 because Russia is really angry at NATO as Russia is the oil supplier for Western/Eastern Europe). Who brought this on? The United States pushed it and that is against what Reagan promised Russia but the US has violated its promise.

Russia should defend itself from this bull dog the United States has been dying lying to Russia. These countries above shouldn't be NATO members and the US promised no NATO expansion in post soviet countries and look at the US has done. Created an angry superpower back up again Russia.--24.176.166.135 (talk) 09:07, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

Also the article by CNN "Russia, a Superpower Raises Again" as goes into details about how Russia was always a superpower regardless if it was always an energy superpower but it goes on to say it was a superpower even after 1991.--24.176.166.135 (talk) 09:15, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

PUTIN

Vladimir Putin has only extended the powers of the presidency. He has made no motions toward a freer russia. Even now after he has officially vacated office he has his puppet dmitry in charge and he remains prime minister. If any one knows anything about a single act putin has pushed for drop me a message at AragornSOArathorn.

-AragornSOAragorn —Preceding unsigned comment added by AragornSOArathorn (talk • contribs) 22:22, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

"We're not electing a new President. We're just helping the old one to choose a new nickname and avatar." (c=bashorg.ru) --Illythr (talk) 22:50, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

If it ain't broke, why fix it? Wish we had a president like Putin here in the US to take care of the sleazebag lobbies and pissant interest groups. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 165.91.10.69 (talk) 23:13, 14 June 2008 (UTC)

Dmitry Medvedev

"Президент РФ Дмитрий Медведев"

• http://news.google.co.uk/news?ned=ru_ru&hl=ru&ned=ru_ru&scoring=d&q=%22%D0%9F%D1%80%D0%B5%D0%B7%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BD%D1%82+%D0%A0%D0%A4+%D0%94%D0%BC%D0%B8%D1%82%D1%80%D0%B8%D0%B9+%D0%9C%D0%B5%D0%B4%D0%B2%D0%B5%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%B2+&btnG=%D0%9F%D0%BE%D0%B8%D1%81%D0%BA

194.66.226.95 (talk) 12:50, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

Buckshot's edits

I have restored the status quo because there were problems with the information he added.

"At least up until 2004 however, 'military officials repeatedly complain that they were able to draft less than 11 per cent of those who are supposed to be conscripts'. his was partially due to the widely publicised excesses of dedovshchina, the harsh system of senior conscripts controlling the barracks."

Golts' hearsay is unconfirmed and, at the year 2004, outdated.

The reason you gave for reducing the contract term, which you listed as because of "the need for contract troops to operate the latest equipment" is not the only reason. There are several reasons why the contract term is being reduced, for instance because it is in line with the "lighter and more mobile" Russian armed forces post-Soviet doctrine, health/education problems with draftees, dedovschina, etc, that is why there is "several problems associated with it" is listed. In any case, it is appropriate to go into such detail on the Russian armed forces article, but on this article the armed forces section only has a paragraph devoted to it and there is a many aspects to cover, going into detail about one only serves to inflate an already bloated article.--Berkunt (talk) 15:22, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

Superpower

I've seen the new comments being made that Russia is a superpower and United States is no longer a superpower and stating Russia is far more powerful than the USA. ROFL in all the time I've been on Wikpedia I don't think I've ever heard something so crazy which someone seriously believed. This is not just a ridiculous Russian nationalist fantasy, it's sickening. Fanatical Russians clinging to the idea their finished state is actually still something for the world to fear because their country is only held together by the idea that it should wreak war on others, and America hating sympathisers who look for and support any possible states or entities that could rival the United States, no matter how brutal and disgusting they may be, whether it be such likes as China or Al-Quaeda. Russia is an absolutely finished state with a rapidly falling population that is now even smaller than Pakistan's, it's economy sits in a pathetic 11th position in the world which has been claimed many times is too low to be in the G8, its military spending in a poor 7th position with only a tiny number of its roting military still functioning, internal conflicts and borders falling apart with its regions such as Chechnya breaking away and technically became independent states with their own presidents.

How can Russia even for a second be seriously considered a superpower let alone be more powerful than the US when it can only just scrape in to claim to be a great power considering most other great powers such as the UK, France, Germany, Japan, Italy, and China out perform Russia in economic rankings and military spending rankings. Infact all great powers mentioned above have larger economies than Russia and only Italy spends less on its military, and not by very much.

Russia may very well have large reserves of oil and gas and tries to claim these make it oh so powerful of a country because it has reserves in similar size to that of Iran. Thing is reserves of oil and gas in similar size to that of Iran's have not made Iran a superpower, infact Iran isn't even a great power. Russia has a medium economic growth rate traditionally around 5% a year. The United States has an economic growth rate traditionally around 4% a year. When does Russia's economy expect to by pass America's? 2800? 5% economic growth is actually pretty poor for a developing economy, with such likes as China and India growing at around 9% or more, and it's only 1% higher than America's and America is fully developed. In fact how can the Russian economy even try to compare to the US economy when it's not even a developed economy?

It gets even more ridiculous when you try to compare numbers between Russia and the United States. Russia's $1.2 trillion economy versus the United States $13.7 trillion economy. That's around 13 times larger. The US economy equals 25% of the world's GDP. Russia's $40 billion military spending versus the USA's $583 billion military spending. The USA's military spending is 50% of the world's military spending. Russia's rapidly declining population of 142 million people versus the USA's rapidly rising population of 304 million people. When Russia's economy equals 26% of the world's GDP, its military spending equals 51% of world military spending, and a rapidly growing population of 305 million people THEN AND ONLY THEN is it a superpower more powerful than the United States

In case even all this still has't proved how pathetic Russian power is as of 2008 I've laid out Russia's rankings in important areas associated with power

• Economy

2007 List by the International Monetary Fund

Rank Country GDP (millions of USD) — Template:Country data World World 54,311,608 —  European Union 16,830,100 1  United States 13,843,825 2  Japan 4,383,762 3  Germany 3,322,147 4  China 3,250,827 5  United Kingdom 2,772,570 6  France 2,560,255 7  Italy 2,104,666 8  Spain 1,438,959 9  Canada 1,432,140 10  Brazil 1,313,590 11  Russia 1,289,582 12  India 1,098,945 13  South Korea 957,053 14  Australia 908,826 15  Mexico 893,365 Military Rank Country Military expenditures (USD) Date of information — Template:Country data World World Total 1,200,000,000,000 2007 (projected est.) — NATO Total 849,875,309,000 1 United States 583,283,000,000 2008 — European Union Total 311,920,000,000 2007 2 France 74,690,470,000 2008-2009 3 United Kingdom 68,911,000,000 FY 2008-09 4 China 59,000,000,000 2008 5 Germany 45,930,000,000 2008 6 Japan 41,750,000,000 2007 7 Russia 40,000,000,000 2008 8 Italy 32,600,000,000 2008 (est.) 9 Saudi Arabia 31,050,000,000 2008 10 South Korea 28,940,000,000 2008 11 India 26,500,000,000 2008-2009 12 Brazil 25,396,731,055 2008 13 Australia 20,727,710,000 2008 14 Canada 17,150,002,540 2008 15 Spain 15,792,207,000 2007 Population Rank Country/territory/entity Population Date % of world population Source — Template:Country data World World 6,671,226,000 July 1, 2007 100% UN estimate 1  People's Republic of China 1,439,377,000 January 13 2025 21.58% Chinese Population clock 2  India 1,389,680,000 January 13 2025 20.83% Indian Population clock 3  United States 339,065,000 January 13 2025 5.08% Official USA Population clock 4  Indonesia 231,627,000 3.47% UN estimate 5  Brazil 186,917,074 May 27, 2008 2.8% Official Brazilian Population clock 6  Pakistan 215,030,000 January 13 2025 3.22% Official Pakistani Population clock 7  Bangladesh 158,665,000 2.38% UN estimate 8  Nigeria 148,093,000 2.22% UN estimate 9  Russia 142,008,800 January 1, 2008 2.13% Federal State Statistics Service 10  Japan 127,720,000 March 1, 2008 1.92% Official Japan Statistics Bureau estimate 11  Mexico 106,535,000 1.6% UN estimate 12  Philippines 88,574,614 August 1, 2007 1.33% 2007 Official NSO Census Results 13  Vietnam 87,375,000 1.31% UN estimate 14  Germany 82,244,000 November 30, 2007 1.23% Federal Statistics Office estimate 15  Ethiopia 77,127,000 July 2007 1.16% Ethiopia Central Statistics Agency Signsolid (talk) 08:31, 31 May 2008 (UTC) that's cool, this is not a forum to post your opinions, by the way Russia's economy is one of the fastest growing in the world and they're soon to overtake the UK as the second largest european economy by PPP, hope this helps Nightmare X (talk) 17:21, 31 May 2008 (UTC) I am sorry but I don't understand your reaction to Signsolid's post, Nightmare X. The question whether Russia is a superpower or not is relevant and he just responded to the claim that it is (posted here in May 2008 by Versace11 - see above) and provided us with convincing arguments (including numbers) which proved that Russia cannot be classified as a superpower. That's all. I know that it can be a bitter pill to swallow for some people but Misplaced Pages is about facts - not about inflating one's ego. I couldn't find anything inappropriate in his post. Just facts and numbers. Tomasz J Kotarba (talk) 11:37, 8 July 2008 (UTC) This is not a forum for you to voice your communist sympathy towards Russia in hope that the Soviet Union will return one day. Sorry to disappoint you but Russia's never going to be a superpower again. Hey at the rate their population is falling, their territory being lost, and military rotting they might just be as poor, small, weak, and crappy as Chile soon? Signsolid (talk) 17:03, 1 June 2008 (UTC) You just attacked editor Nightmare X, who by the way was not the user who posted the "Russia is a Superpower" topic. Nightmare X just came in here to remind you that this is not a general forum, to stay civil, be polite, and refrain from personal attacks. Too bad you didn't listen to him because you've just violated Misplaced Pages policy twice in a row.--71.112.145.211 (talk) 18:59, 1 June 2008 (UTC) As a matter of fact, Russia is probably less Communist than any other major European state at the moment. Are you perhaps a Putinist agent aiming to provoke people into defending this country by making ridiculous statements? --217.172.29.4 (talk) 15:13, 13 June 2008 (UTC) Establishment date From talk page of pianist.ru. It is in Russian, please use Google translation if needed: Россия (Russia) По России: Правопреемственность: Российская республика, провозглашенная в феврале 1917 года стала правопреемницей Российской империи. РСФСР, установленная в октябре (по ст. стилю) 1917 года — правопреемница Российской республики. Далее 4 республики (РСФСР, БССР, УССР, ЗСФСР) объединились в СССР (при этом РСФСР продолжала существовать как государство в составе СССР, см. любую конституцию РСФСР 1918, 1925, 1938, 1978 года). В 1991 году Ельцин был избран Президентом РСФСР (одновременно ещё был Президент СССР - Горбачев). В декабре главами РСФСР, БССР, УССР подписано беловежское соглашение, Горбач уходит в отставку. Президент РСФСР не уничтожает РСФСР (по разным соображениям, также во избежание потери власти), а просто переименовывает её в РФ. Действуют все законы РСФСР (то же самое государство) и СССР (до указов о приостановлении конкретного закона), также обязательства Советского Союза перед другими государствами (РСФСР стала его государством-правопреемником). Поэтому дата основания современной России — 7 октября 1917 года. Шоковая терапия, прихватизация и прочее по сути дела являются лишь продолжением перестроечной политики, хотя и сбивают несведущих граждан с толку. Еще их запутывает конституция РФ 1993 года, воспринимаемая как первая конституция России, однако она уже пятая по счёту. --Pianist 01:24, 6 June 2008 (UTC) Эта одна из точек зрения - вероятно вполне законная. С другой стороны Россия стала правоприемницей и наследницей многого от СССР. Например, у РСФСР было свое место в ООН, свое представительство, свой голос, это место не имело постоянного представительства в СБ и права вето. После распада СССР РФ получила не место РСФСР, а место СССР. РФ полностью взяла на себе внеший долг, обязательства по междунородным договорам, стату ядерной державы и проч. С третьей стороны РСФСР как предмет международного права после 1921 года не существовал (ну или почти не существовал). РФ руководствуется не договорами РСФСР, а договорами СССР. Или новыми договорами. С четвертой стороны юридически принятие действующей (Собчаковской) конституции в 1993 году было полным нарушением предыдущей конституции. В этом смысле государство существует с 1993 года. С пятой, по вашей точке зрения, поскольку в РСФСР теоретически действовали все законы Российской Империи кроме официально отменных. То современная РФ существует со значительно более ранних времен (Московского княжества?, Ивана III?). Таким образом, говорить, что РФ существует с 1917 года - это откровенный WP:OR или ОРИСС. Если Вы найдете авторитетный источники это подтверждающие (не передовицу газеты Правда, а, скажем, Британику) - то можно. То что сейчас тоже надо поправить, но мне кажется, что сказать, что стала полностью суверенным государство в 1991г. - сказать можно).Alex Bakharev (talk) 02:24, 6 June 2008 (UTC) По ООН - мягко выражаясь не совсем правдивая информация. РСФСР не вступала в ООН (в отличие от БССР и УССР), поэтому не знаю откуда вы это взяли. Кстати это не моя альтернативная точка зрения, как вы пытались намекнуть, это факты меджународного права. После ликвидации государства следует созыв учредительного собрания, принятие новой конституции; если вы не помните 1993 год, то напомню что конституцию приняли из-за событий возле Белого дома, а не потому что хотели принять конституцию нового государства. Поэтому прошу вас убрать ваш откат обратно. --Pianist 03:21, 6 June 2008 (UTC) Откатывал последний раз не я, а Berkunt. Я как раз пытаюсь учесть вашу точку зрения. У Вас есть сомнения, что Россия получила независимость от СССР в 1991? If possible lets use English, we are English wikipediaAlex Bakharev (talk) 03:30, 6 June 2008 (UTC) Прошу прощения, но если я буду писать по-английски, то сильно исказится смысл того, что я хотел сказать. Независимость от СССР Россия получила, но это дата независимости, а не дата основания. Как говорится, это две большие разницы. Независимой Россия также была с 1917 по 1922 год. Кстати по комментарию, к откату участника Berkunt. По его мнению Российская империя была также переименована. Также он пропустил Российскую республику. Вот в том и сложности, что у множества людей начинается разрыв шаблонов, когда начинаешь писать задокументированные факты. По переименованию могу привести ссылку на официальный документ. Надеюсь вы понимаете, что переименование и прекращение существования государства - не одно и то же. --Pianist 04:02, 6 June 2008 (UTC) Alex Bakharev, вам не кажется странным, что в шаблоне указана дата основания (862), а вы даете сноску на дату независимости. Нужно и про 7 ноября 1917 года написать, что юридически РФ основана тогда. --Pianist 06:14, 6 June 2008 (UTC) Утром - ссылка на надежные источники, вечером - дата. Можно и наоборот, но источники - вперед. Alex Bakharev (talk) 06:40, 6 June 2008 (UTC) Закон в студию! Закон РСФСР от 25 декабря 1991 года № 2094-1 «Об изменении наименования государства Российская Советская Федеративная Социалистическая Республика». Вот ещё фотография закона с подписью Бориса Ельцина в виде бонуса --Pianist 07:18, 6 June 2008 (UTC) Это Ваша интерпретация (WP:SYNTH). Покажите ссылку где сказано, что РФ существует с Октября 1917 года. Alex Bakharev (talk) 07:41, 6 June 2008 (UTC) Как сложно разговаривать. РСФСР - это и есть РФ (что подтверждает закон, что я привел). РСФСР образована 7 ноября 1917 (БСЭ). --Pianist 23:01, 6 June 2008 (UTC) I disagree with your original research. Still I would wait for the input from other editors Alex Bakharev (talk) 01:28, 8 June 2008 (UTC) When you have no arguments, you start saying about "original researches". I wrote Reliable sources to you. (Вот началось - кончаются аргументы - надо начинать орать про оригинальные исследования. Ссылки я указал, вы начинаете доводить до абсурда правила Википедии) --Pianist 01:39, 8 June 2008 (UTC) We are not doing original research. We are looking for the mainstream views in published sources. Please find any reliable source that claim that modern RF starts in 1917. WP:SYNTH is not allowed, sorry Alex Bakharev (talk) 08:54, 8 June 2008 (UTC) Вот как все херово в Википедии - добавить факты нельзя - долго доказываешь и подтверждаешь ссылками, а в итоге всё будет откачено волюнтаристским решением админа (либо вообще додиков, что про Россию знают меньше, чем например русские про Гондурас). Сейчас в статье информация по дате независимости ложная, а даты образования вообще нет. Россия приняла декларацию независимости 12 июня 1990 года (а сейчас указан 1991 год), юридически Россия основана 7 ноября 1917 года (по новому стилю), однако вики-демократам эта дата не по-душе, ладно - триколор в жопу, ветер в спину - можете тогда указывать в качестве даты основания хоть август 1991, хоть октябрь 1993. Лет через сто может найдется умный человек и вернет правильную версию. Причем отсюда за этот период тупо скопируют в другие языковые разделы википедии. --Pianist 06:40, 11 June 2008 (UTC) The Supreme Soviet of RSFSR could proclaim whatever they want, the republic was not de-facto indendent until the August 1991. Otherwise we would have to admit that Estonia was an independent democratic state in 1940-1991. Still I have entered both dates to address your concerns Alex Bakharev (talk) 08:16, 11 June 2008 (UTC) Вот сейчас более-менее, но тема основания не раскрыта (1917), по данным, указанным в статье, получается что даже Израиль юридически старше России, однако это не так.--Pianist 09:20, 11 June 2008 (UTC) I have added the info you requested (with a valid reference BTW) Alex Bakharev (talk) 10:42, 11 June 2008 (UTC) wikipedia's anti-russian bias Is seen from its citing purely american standpoint of what is the size of the territory of Russia.The actual area of Russia is 17,098,242 km2,see wikpedias russian version,that's 22848 square kilometers more than shown in wikipedia's english version. Frank Russian (talk) 12:42, 14 July 2008 (UTC) Are the Serbs really anti-russian? -- j.budissin (talk) 23:39, 14 July 2008 (UTC) Really-really anti-russian gang is at Federal State Statistics Service of Russia. --Tigga en (talk) 21:42, 21 July 2008 (UTC) russian healthcare Если ты читал источник не внимательно, вот цитата: "В медицинской сфере дискриминация привела к тому, что неработающие граждане без регистрации по месту жительства не могут оформить медицинский полис. Те же, кто медицинский полис имеет, не могут получить медицинскую помощь на территории, не совпадающей с их регистрацией." И прописка, это лишь одна из причин, по которой всеобщее право на бесплатную медицину остаётся только на бумаге. Другая распространённая, это то, что значительная часть страны рпботает "нелегально" получает зарплату в конвертах и, как следствие, также не имеет полиса. Я не знаю откуда ты сам, но я например, живу в росси. И с тех самых пор, как закончил университет в 2002г. ни разу не имел этого полиса по разным причинам, равно как и большинство моих друзей. Что до выщитывания процентов, то вообще не понятно к чему это. Там ясно написано, что конституция гарантирует всем. На деле, разница между повседневностью и конституцией в россии огромна. И даже если и один этого не имеет, это уже не всем. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.122.81.237 (talk) 15:46, 24 July 2008 (UTC) Firstly, the article is discussing various types of discrimination by "propiska", not just discussing just health care. Health care is just one of the areas briefly touched upon. Secondly, your quote is meaningless without numbers of how many people this affects. The article listed potentially 3 million victims of propiska discrimination ("Количество потенциальных жертв подобной дискриминации составляет минимум 3 миллиона человек.") - that is less than 2% of Russia's population. This by itself shows that access to health care is hardly a big problem. But I'll add some points. Furthermore, it states half of the 3 million figure are people working in Moscow, ("Около половины от этого числа людей работают в Москве, остальные, как правило, трудятся в других крупных городах страны") so it is hardly a nationwide problem. Furthermore, this 3 million figure counts all the various aspects of discrimination via propiska that the article covered (the article covered the right to work, to health care, to buy state housing, registration of motor vehicles, to obtain a loan and suffrage - "Среди прав, которые незаконно поставлены в зависимость от наличия регистрации, - право на труд, на медицинскую помощь, на покупку квартир по программе "Доступное жилье", на регистрацию автомобилей, на получение кредита и даже активное избирательное право."), not just health care. So the figure for people affected by solely health care, not counting all these other aspects which are included in this 3 million figure, would be even smaller, and the article doesn't provide this information anyway, which is the only information we are interested in.--Miyokan (talk) 16:07, 24 July 2008 (UTC) The statement is you can't get free health care without proper "propiska". So i don't know the way how this figure could be even smaller than amount of people without proper "propiska". Another statement you can't get free health care if you work illegally. And lot of russians do. And anyway, as i told you above, that article says "Russia's constitution guarantees free, universal health care for all citizens." Even if one doesn't in fact have this right, it's not all 91.122.81.237 (talk) 16:43, 24 July 2008 (UTC) Sure, there might be some cases of this, but it shouldn't be added to the article per WP:UNDUE as it affects so little people (less than 2% of the population - even less when you discount all the other discriminations that are included in that figure). It also basically just affects Moscow. This information belongs in the propiska article.--Miyokan (talk) 01:36, 25 July 2008 (UTC) Third time: not less! Because it's not you either can't register motor vehicle or can't get free health care, but all together at same time. + add here the amount of people, working illegally. And anyway, it doesn't matter. 98% 99% or 97% it's not all. So this part of the article gives false impression. And it's not a view of minority, which WP:UNDUE covers. It's view of official states ombudsman, assigned to this role by russian president —Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.122.81.237 (talk) 09:25, 25 July 2008 (UTC) Stop violating concensus, you have been reverted by another editor now. You have also broken the three-revert rule. There is nothing false about "Russia's constitution guarantees free, universal health care for all citizens", that is just fact. That possibly 1% of people do not get it because they break the law does not discount this statement.--Miyokan (talk) 09:37, 25 July 2008 (UTC) There is no consensus reached. And a fact that i were reverted by another editor, does not mean that my edits are wrong. Stop manipulate numbers and facts (3 of 140 is more than 2% FYI). This peoples can't get this right not because they've broke the law. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.122.81.237 (talk) 09:51, 25 July 2008 (UTC) Yes, they have broken the law because propiska is a permit, it is a legal document, if these illegal Moscow workers followed the rules of propiska like 99% of the population does then they wouldn't have any problem.--Miyokan (talk) 09:57, 25 July 2008 (UTC) That reference, which i've provided, does not say even a word about people broke a law. Peoples, which can't get theirs free health care are not outlaws. And don't forget, that russian constitution guaranties freedom of movement and settlement. So how could there be a permit on settlement? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.122.84.125 (talk) 10:09, 25 July 2008 (UTC) I'll repeat it again because you just ignored what I said. Yes, they have broken the law because propiska is a law, if these illegal Moscow workers followed the propiska law like 99% of the population does then they wouldn't have any problem. The Russian constitution argument, that is WP:OR and debateable, the Constitutional court has not ruled that propiska is unconstitutional. If you think propiska is unconstitutional then feel free to take it to the Constitutional court. Anyway, access to health care is hardly a problem as we have established that 98/99% of the population are not affected by this.--Miyokan (talk) 10:28, 25 July 2008 (UTC) References does not say that those people have broke the law! It's just your imagination. Its not unlawful to live without propiska. It's not even unlawful to be a homeless. And anyway, even if such, constitution guaranties free health care to all which includes even outlaws because they are citizens as well. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.122.84.125 (talk) 10:51, 25 July 2008 (UTC) The fact is the reason why these people are facing these "restrictions" is because they are not following the proper rules of propiska. Even ignoring this, you still neglect that this doesn't affect the 99% of Russians who do follow the rules.--Miyokan (talk) 12:10, 25 July 2008 (UTC) Once again, reference does not say that "they are not following the proper rules of propiska" or anything like that. It's just your imagination. Its not unlawful to live without propiska. It's not even unlawful to be a homeless. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.122.92.76 (talk) 13:26, 25 July 2008 (UTC) You are misrepresenting sources. "Те же, кто медицинский полис имеет, не могут получить медицинскую помощь на территории, не совпадающей с их регистрацией.") - Translation - "Those who have a medical policy cannot receive medical care in the territory not concurrent with their registration (propiska)". ie If people followed the rule and sought medical care in the territory concurrent with their registration like they are supposed to like 99% of Russians, then they would have no problem. All of this is irrelevant anyway because, as you yet again ignored, it this doesn't affect 99% of Russians as the article said.--Miyokan (talk) 14:22, 25 July 2008 (UTC) Actually complete phrase is "В медицинской сфере дискриминация привела к тому, что неработающие граждане без регистрации по месту жительства не могут оформить медицинский полис. Те же, кто медицинский полис имеет, не могут получить медицинскую помощь на территории, не совпадающей с их регистрацией." (In medical aspect discrimination lead to the fact that unemployed citizens without propiska can't get policy for free health care. Those who have a medical policy cannot receive medical care in the territory not concurrent with their propiska) And i'm not going to comment your statements about "following rules" and "99%" again and again. I've done that already. Statement, that i've added to article is properly sourced by reliable source. So stop deleting it. I'm over with that. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.122.92.76 (talk) 15:07, 25 July 2008 (UTC) Anonymous IP: If you'd study the health-care systems in other countries with so called "free" health-care, you'll find them all to have some sorts of restrictions and rules. That's just the nature of these types of social systems. Technicalities, such as your assertion that health care isn't free to *everyone* because illegal workers don't get it, does not at all warrant mention in this article (especially when you word it the way you do so to make it seem like a widespread issue that effects a significant portion of the population.) The main point is that every citizen in Russia is guaranteed free health care as long as they follow the rules (common sense, goes without saying), the same as in every European country. Krawndawg (talk) 15:39, 25 July 2008 (UTC) Again. Those people mentioned in report of official russian ombudsmen do not brake rules or laws! And what is happening in other countries is not relevant to this article at all. I haven't mentioned illegal workers in this article. There is discrimination in russia in area of health care. And this statement has reliable sources ( official russian ombudsmen report and others ). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.110.13.68 (talk) 18:00, 26 July 2008 (UTC) OK, after a post at WP:NPOV/N, I am responding. 1) @IP: you have edit warred a lot, across several IPs, and have scarcely avoiding violating WP:3RR on a few occasions. This makes getting in contact with you hard. Please register an account. 2) @Miyokan et al.: I see no problem including a note that the universal health care has problems; in fact, it provides information to the read that is important. I've translated the source into English, and the IP is not misrepresenting it at all. The Evil Spartan (talk) 23:15, 27 July 2008 (UTC) Read what Krawndawg said, Spartan. Anon is again ignoring facts so I'll repeat again - "Те же, кто медицинский полис имеет, не могут получить медицинскую помощь на территории, не совпадающей с их регистрацией.") - Translation - "Those who have a medical policy cannot receive medical care in the territory not concurrent with their registration (propiska)". ie If people followed the rule and sought medical care in the territory concurrent with their registration like they are supposed to like 99% of Russians, then they would have no problem. It is impossible to argue with Anon, he ignores our points and facts repeats the same thing ad nauseum. Every universal health care in the world has some sorts of restriction rules, which is the nature of these types of social systems. And if you indeed read the source (google translate?) then you would have read that 99% of Russians are not affected by these rules.--Miyokan (talk) 03:47, 28 July 2008 (UTC) Fourth time: they do not brake rules. I don't know where you got it. All those "ie If" is just your original research. Russian ombudsmen clearly calls it as discrimination in his report. I repeat: discrimination. The article is biased, and gives wrong impression. Sounds like "russia got such a great free universal health care system, and all problems is just came from nowhere"

1. "1990 CIA World Factbook". Central Intelligence Agency. Retrieved 2008-03-09.
2. Angus Maddison. Measuring the Performance of a Communist Command Economy. The Review of Income and Wealth. September 1998, Number 3. Table 8.
3. Alexander Golts, 'Military Reform in Russia and the Global War against Terrorism,' Journal of Slavic Military Studies, Vol.17, 2004, pages 29-41
4. http://en.wikinews.org/Global_annual_military_spending_tops_$1.2_trillion
5. [http://www.gpoaccess.gov/usbudget/fy08/pdf/budget/defense.pdf Department Of Defense
6. Sven Biscop (2006-09-15). "Ambiguous Ambition. Development of the EU security architecture; Paper presented at the colloquium The EC/EU: A World Security Actor? An Assessment after 50 Years of the External Actions of the EC/EU, Paris, EU Institute for Security Studies, 15 September 2006". The Royal Institute for International Relations - EGMONT. Retrieved 2008-04-27. {{cite journal}}: Cite journal requires |journal= (help) "a defence budget of over 200 billion euro" (converted into USD at the exchange rate current at end of April, 2008)
7. http://www.defense.gouv.fr/ministre/prises_de_parole/discours/projet_de_budget_2008_m_herve_morin_26_09_07 Conférence de presse de M. Hervé Morin, ministre de la Défense
8. Ministry of Defence | About Defence | Organisation | Key Facts about Defence | Defence Spending
9. China says military spending will go up 17.6 percent in 2008 - International Herald Tribune
10. Deutsche Welle
11. Asia Times Online
12. Defense spending to grow 20% in 2008 - Deputy Defense Minister Lyubov Kudelina
13. Stockholm International Peace Research Institute: The fifteen major spenders in 2007.
14. Defense Budget Grows 9 Percent.
15. National Congress of Brazil. Brazilian Federal Budget (2008) - Ministry of Defense (Ministério da Defesa).
16. Australian Department of Defence (2006). Portfolio Budget Statements 2006-07. Page 19.
17. 2007-2008 Part I - The Government Expenditure Plan - Part 24 of 32
18. Mainland China only

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