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That's why I announce here my plan to start a <nowiki>{{proposed}}</nowiki> guideline for dealing with article naming of articles on ''people''. I think the logical name for such guideline would be:<blockquote>''']'''</blockquote>Using a guideline name differing from the existing ones, as long as it's merely a proposal, also helps not to disturb existing rules (and their talk pages) too much: while in the end it might result in no more than a few ideas of this proposition being "absorbed" by other guidelines (or the other way around). But that's for the wikipedia community to decide then. First I try to cooperate in building a valid alternative, better in line with general Naming Conventions guidelines. --] 11:56, 7 September 2005 (UTC) That's why I announce here my plan to start a <nowiki>{{proposed}}</nowiki> guideline for dealing with article naming of articles on ''people''. I think the logical name for such guideline would be:<blockquote>''']'''</blockquote>Using a guideline name differing from the existing ones, as long as it's merely a proposal, also helps not to disturb existing rules (and their talk pages) too much: while in the end it might result in no more than a few ideas of this proposition being "absorbed" by other guidelines (or the other way around). But that's for the wikipedia community to decide then. First I try to cooperate in building a valid alternative, better in line with general Naming Conventions guidelines. --] 11:56, 7 September 2005 (UTC)

----


I strongly oppose this idea. Even if there ''are'' serious problems with this page as it stands (I disagree, but for the sake of argument...), I think the kinds of things that Francis has been objecting to could easily be solved by a few changes to this page, rather than starting over from scratch. Most of the rules here were devised so as to have some kind of consistency in naming of people who are referred to very similarly, but for whom the proper page title is not clearly evident from the "use common names" rule. What Francis is proposing is to essentially ditch the entire body of conventions that have been arrived at over a period of several years, and which for the most part work to insure that we know where page titles should be, simply because he thinks articles like ] ought to be at ]. Even if we believe that this latter goal is a correct one, there are much easier ways to achieve it than to abandon this entire page. An expansion in the meaning of exception 2 would do well enough. ] ] 15:59, 8 September 2005 (UTC) I strongly oppose this idea. Even if there ''are'' serious problems with this page as it stands (I disagree, but for the sake of argument...), I think the kinds of things that Francis has been objecting to could easily be solved by a few changes to this page, rather than starting over from scratch. Most of the rules here were devised so as to have some kind of consistency in naming of people who are referred to very similarly, but for whom the proper page title is not clearly evident from the "use common names" rule. What Francis is proposing is to essentially ditch the entire body of conventions that have been arrived at over a period of several years, and which for the most part work to insure that we know where page titles should be, simply because he thinks articles like ] ought to be at ]. Even if we believe that this latter goal is a correct one, there are much easier ways to achieve it than to abandon this entire page. An expansion in the meaning of exception 2 would do well enough. ] ] 15:59, 8 September 2005 (UTC)

:::Easy, Easy, Easy - is this just creating havoc, for the fun of creating havoc? ] was linked from the new proposed guideline ''from the start''. I never said I wanted to do away with this. In between both ] and ] exist, safeguarding all the "rules" of ], apart from putting "exceptions" where they should be according to the views I have expressed several times on this page. No problem for merging pages if opinions start to concur. ''In the mean while'' (1) I did the talk here; (2) If it's possible to do the few adaptations proposed by me to ], I'll proceed with it without delay; (3) I didn't bother you all the while I was working on the alternative proposition. --] 20:36, 8 September 2005 (UTC)


::Well said. I would like to give an example of how the current naming convention helped me recently. It is one thing to argue for common names for people like Frederick the Great but the vast majority of people who come under the direction of this page are not well known and may well hold multiple titles. Without the rules this page imposes finding them can be difficult. ::Well said. I would like to give an example of how the current naming convention helped me recently. It is one thing to argue for common names for people like Frederick the Great but the vast majority of people who come under the direction of this page are not well known and may well hold multiple titles. Without the rules this page imposes finding them can be difficult.


::There is a page called the ] based on the text of 1911 Encyclopaedia Britannica which needed Wikifying. Lots of the people named on that page were only given by title. For example the "Earl of Essex" and "Earl of Forth". For someone like the Earl of Essex it is easy to find out who that is. But even if it was not, a look up of ] gives a list and then it is a matter of picking the correct one. In the case of ] the page was a redirect to ] which was a redirect to ] now this page was clearly not the correct one. So a quick message on the user page who had made the redirect explaining the problem and within a few hours the Earl of Brentford page had been edited to include mention of the earlier earl. With this information I was able to find a 1911 Encyclopaedia Britannica reference to the Earl and create a page. If it had not been for the consistency which this page brings, finding the correct person to link to would have taken much longer, particularly as the chap had three different titles during the war and is often referred to by the senior title he held at the time which is being written about. He is not the only one like that, who had multiple titles during this and other conflicts. ] 16:58, 8 September 2005 (UTC) ::There is a page called the ] based on the text of 1911 Encyclopaedia Britannica which needed Wikifying. Lots of the people named on that page were only given by title. For example the "Earl of Essex" and "Earl of Forth". For someone like the Earl of Essex it is easy to find out who that is. But even if it was not, a look up of ] gives a list{{ref|list}} and then it is a matter of picking the correct one. In the case of ] the page was a redirect to ] which was a redirect to ] now this page was clearly not the correct one. So a quick message on the user page who had made the redirect explaining the problem and within a few hours the Earl of Brentford page had been edited to include mention of the earlier earl. With this information I was able to find a 1911 Encyclopaedia Britannica reference to the Earl and create a page. If it had not been for the consistency which this page brings, finding the correct person to link to would have taken much longer, particularly as the chap had three different titles during the war and is often referred to by the senior title he held at the time which is being written about. He is not the only one like that, who had multiple titles during this and other conflicts. ] 16:58, 8 September 2005 (UTC)

:::For me, presently I try to find out what ] should actually be called according to ] - well it's "unclear", that's the least that can be said, so I'll probably wait till the new set of guidelines is approved by the community. Could in the mean while someone help me out how she was called the month she was Queen in Italy (the time she was ''princess'' there it appears to have been (Princess) ], but I couldn't find out whether she kept that name on ascension, from the documentary they just showed on TV. --] 20:36, 8 September 2005 (UTC)

;Notes
#{{note|list}} I always said that '''list'''s and other techniques were better to deal with this than page names. The rest of the example nowhere explains that the most logical & used pagename would have been contraproductive in this example. It all depended on ''redirects''. The alleged "consistency" is nowhere related to whether or not "exception 2" is applied. "Three titles" are never all three mentioned in the page name, so the example appears irrelevant for supporting resitance for the change I propose. --] 20:36, 8 September 2005 (UTC)


== Princesses by marriage after death == == Princesses by marriage after death ==

Revision as of 20:36, 8 September 2005

Archives


Exception 2 not applied

(Compare to list of names voted under "Exception 2" below)

Requested moves

Misplaced Pages:Requested moves have been made for these pages:

For those interested there are also several Thai titled pages with a WP:RM outstanding request at the moment Philip Baird Shearer 15:00, 29 August 2005 (UTC)

Russian consorts

see previous Talk:Archive 6#Russian consorts and Talk:Alexandra Fyodorovna of Hesse

Addition proposed

I propose following addition to be added to this guideline, as it might make it a little less controversial, and also might cut down on several exceptions that otherwise have to be absurdly detailed (I try to make it as simple as possible):

If a person is known under a name that is unambiguous with whatever other person that is eligible for a wikipedia article, and if that name is overwhelmingly more often used than the name that otherwise would result from this guideline, the more current name would be used.

As far as I'm concerned "Google test" can be used to determine that "overwhelmingly more", if the usual precautions explained in wikipedia:Google test are taken - however don't forget to exclude wikipedia form the search (e.g. add "-wikipedia" to search string), while wikipedia's popularity has been known to desequilibrate such searches by approx. 1000%.

Examples:

  • At the time of writing this the name "William the Silent" is a many-many-manyfold of the occurence of his name when written according to the present rules (which might also indicate the rules are not too good, but anyway the proposed additional rule might exclude the worst aberrations from the "most usual")
  • John the Fearless, similar: "John, Duke of Burgundy" is about ten times less used to indicate this person.
  • "Winnaretta Singer, Princess of Polignac" unknown to the internet - "Winnaretta Singer" 884 hits; "Princesse de Polignac" when searching exclusively on English pages: 602 hits (be assured you won't find many of these pages that don't talk about Winnaretta: even "Winnaretta Singer, Princesse de Polignac" exclusively on English pages still has 417 hits); "Princess of Polignac": 12 hits. So indeed "Winnaretta Singer, Princess of Polignac" would be nearest to "original research".
  • and how would this guideline tackle Georges Sand? Georges Sand, Baronesse Dudevant? Hilarious, the woman would turn in her grave. Amandine-Aurore-Lucile Dupin, Baronesse Dudevant? Even worse, nobody actually knows her by that name. High time to cut the absurdities.
  • etc...

--Francis Schonken 22:25, 28 August 2005 (UTC)

Actually, I'm somewhat ambivalent about this. I think I'll wait to see what others say before I comment. (I will note that the question of how to apply this rule could clearly get out of hand) john k 22:54, 28 August 2005 (UTC)

Let me add that I believe the proper title for Winnaretta Singer under current conventions would be either Winnaretta Singer, princesse de Polignac or Winnaretta, princesse de Polignac. john k 22:59, 28 August 2005 (UTC)
Please, and why not "William I, Prince d'Orange" - they were both native in a different country than France, where there principalty was situated? And why wouldn't it be "William I, prins van Oranje" if the language the person in question most often spoke has to be followed? And why wouldn't it be just simply "Willem van Oranje", that is *exactly* under which name he was chosen second in the "best known Dutchman" competition half a year ago? No, the rules are mounting complexity on complexity, instead of showing the simplest road to encyclopedic quality. --Francis Schonken 07:35, 29 August 2005 (UTC)
For "Baronesse Dudevant" after whatever name for this person this remains as senseless. --Francis Schonken 23:34, 28 August 2005 (UTC)
We are allowed to use pen names for people best known by them, so George Sand is fine. john k 00:04, 29 August 2005 (UTC)
Yes, but that's in another guideline. This guideline is about whether "George Sand" would need to be followed by ", Baroness Dudevant" or by ", Baronesse Dudevant" or whatever. If that general guideline about pseudonyms can overrule this particular one then surely the basic guideline, saying that the "simplest unambiguous name that is generally used in the real world" has to be followed, can without further adaptation of the specific nobility guideline be implemented in wikipedia. But maybe better to inform your fellow wikipedians about that, without "ambivalence". --Francis Schonken 07:35, 29 August 2005 (UTC)
Er, no, the noble title is not part of George Sand's name. It is part of Amandine-Aurore-Lucile Dupin's name. Just as we don't use Amandine-Aurore-Lucile Dupin, we don't use Baroness Dudevant, because they are part of one name - George Sand's real name. However, George Sand is not best known by her real name, but by a pen name. Thus, George Sand. john k 17:04, 30 August 2005 (UTC)

Oppose using the ridiculous google test. Google searches are worthless as evidence of anything. Google searches in the past on Misplaced Pages proved that W.E. Glastone, the Prince of Wales and a host of others have names that are 100% wrong (eg, that the Prince of Wales is Charles Windsor!!!). Google searches link into sites, many of whom are not objective and factual but POV. It would be absurd for an NPOV encyclopædia to use as a source of NPOV POV sites showing up on google. Also I think the whole proposal would produce more controversy, not less, and more POV problems. The current rules are complex because they need to be in an encyclopædia. FearÉIREANN\ 23:02, 28 August 2005 (UTC)

I wrote "usual precautions", linked to the wikipedia "official" how-to guide, and stressed one of the precautions particularly. Are you accusing your fellow wikipedians that they don't know how to write a how-to guide that has all the precautions needed? Indeed I am aware of the kind of troubles that are involved in google-testing. But if "William the Silent" has 16000 hits, if one knows the name is fairly unambiguous, and the proposed wikipedia-name has about 500 hits, of which several link to other persons, I think in that exceptional case intelligent google-testing is allowed. Also if a name proposed according to the guideline has no single hit, compared to the real name of that person several, yeah than probably the absurdistic rules of Misplaced Pages are probably "better" than Google... What I propose is that a better Misplaced Pages guideline would be written, that makes tedious Google-testing (often not leading to unambiguous results) redundant. But as that has not yet been successfully achieved, I only propose the guideline can be overridden for the most blatant cases, that are really, really unambiguous. Going to the library is as good for me, but might have similar (or worse) verifiability problems, if needing statistical data about what is most used.
The rules can not be complex because they need to be in WIKIPEDIA, which is editable by anyone who has some interesting knowledge, and who should not be put through a steep learning curve, on top of learning how to work in wiki-edit mode: for that reason article titles need to be recognisable in the first place, and not a specialised nobility "whois" guide (there are other places in wikipedia that can provide that, the article name should not be cluttered with that above the usual). --Francis Schonken 23:34, 28 August 2005 (UTC)
This is an encyclopædia and has to follow high encyclopædic standards. It isn't a place for dumbed down text. Anything not of that standard, or which does not match the naming conventions of MoS is automatically re-written to conform to them. FearÉIREANN\ 23:40, 28 August 2005 (UTC)
I think you're in a minority viewpoint if you put it that way: there's only people wanting to achieve that, there's no "wikipedia has to" - wikipedia is not a person. And what I remarked upon is that for some article names the standard is as low as can be: inventing a name that has no connection with the real world. That's not "high standards". So if you're not prepared to work together with people that also try to achieve high standard maybe better fork an encyclopædia that is half-fictional in its correctness. --Francis Schonken 23:49, 28 August 2005 (UTC)

If you want to adopt tabloid styles, write for a tabloid. If you want to write for an encylopædia then you have to follow encyclopædic standards. You don't seem to grasp the difference. FearÉIREANN\ 23:56, 28 August 2005 (UTC)

I do. You haven't been able to show that:
  • the google test "how-to" guide was not written according to encyclopædic standards (if it is not, please go rewrite it until it is, people using encyclopædic standards might read it in order to be able to use it);
  • that "William the Silent" is "lower" as encyclopædic standard than "William I, Prince of Orange" to indicate a single person.
  • that "John the Fearless", the name any "encyclopædic" historian would use, is "lower" encyclopædic standard than "John, Duke of Burgundy" or "John I of Valois".
  • That "Winnaretta Singer" is "lower" encyclopædic standard than "Winnaretta Singer, Princesse de Polignac" as article title.
  • That "George Sand" is "lower" encyclopædic standard than "Georges Sand, Baronesse Dudevant" or "Amandine-Aurore-Lucile Dupin, Baronesse Dudevant" as article title.
And yes, I repeat, what you wrote is rather insulting for those having worked on the google test how-to. Is this "Naming guideline" by definition higher encyclopædic standard than that other guideline? I haven't figured out yet how extreme you're on that one? --Francis Schonken 00:17, 29 August 2005 (UTC)

I think that the nobility of Europe is by and large covered by the guidelines:

and if they are not they should be. Philip Baird Shearer 14:48, 29 August 2005 (UTC)

They should be. --Francis Schonken 19:33, 29 August 2005 (UTC)

Exception 2

We already have: "If a person is best known by a cognomen, or by a name that doesn't exactly fit the guidelines above, revert to the base rule: use the most common English name. Examples: Alfred the Great, Charlemagne, Louis the Pious, Henry the Lion, etc...". I think that these words should be written into a tad stricter form. Such as "overwhelmingly best known"...

I look forward to applying this exception only to cases such as Charlemagne instead Charles I of Franks, but not to cases Frederick the Great instead of Frederick II of Prussia nor Catherine the Great instead of Catherine II of Russia.

IMO Philip the Fair should not be adopted instead of Philip IV of France, despite of the fact that Philip's own era never used those ordinals. Actually, for medieval monarchs, ordinal system is almost totally a later fabrication, and still we live with it - the blame is to earlier historians and encyclopedias, a century or more ago etc, which adopted those... Arrigo 00:13, 30 August 2005 (UTC)

see my reply below, after Philip Baird Shearer's comment. --Francis Schonken 10:35, 30 August 2005 (UTC)
The current WP:RM for "William I of England" to "William the Conqueror" has highlighted problems with the wording of Exception 2.
If a person is best known by a cognomen, or by a name that doesn't exactly fit the guidelines above, revert to the base rule: use the most common English name. Examples: Alfred the Great, Charlemagne, Louis the Pious, Henry the Lion, etc...
The words must have been written (and prof read) by people over familiar with English history and their intent was to say that under the usual rules for numbering English kings numbers start with William I in 1066 and because of those rules kings before this time are usually known by their cognomen otherwise Kings like Edward I of England would not be Edward I of England.
If the wording is not changed then we may as well put this page up for a VFD as all but very minor kings and queens are commonly known by a cognomen. So I think we need to come up with a way of stating that if a person belongs to a European house which by histographic traditions do not included in the ordinal then... . As a stop gap measure while we agree on better wording I propose a simple change to stop requests like the requested move to "William the Conqueror":
a) If a person does not fit the guidelines above, use the most common English name. Examples: Alfred the Great, Charlemagne, Louis the Pious, Henry the Lion, etc...
b) As "Exception 2" as a catch-all ought to be moved to be the last exception.
--Philip Baird Shearer 09:20, 30 August 2005 (UTC)
  • oppose further aberration of Naming Conventions basic rules --Francis Schonken 08:15, 30 August 2005 (UTC)
  • support rewriting the "Naming conventions (names and titles)" guideline so that it is again better in line with Naming Conventions basic rules. It has been tried to do it otherwise, for several months now. This has been harassing a lot of people that *normally* would not want to loose time on what an article is named, certainly not if it's about a royal. The rules should be *clear*, *unambiguous*, *avoid complexity* where reasonably possible, *not try to overrule the general naming conventions principles* (that the "general NC" are presented as an "exception" on this page is already wrong from the start), and as a major principle for all wikipedia guidelines: the guideline should be as *self-regulatory* as possible. Detailed treatment of nobility titles and successions should e.g. be in *article text*, on *disambiguation pages*, on *lists*, in *categories*, in *family trees*, making use of *navigational templates*, etc. etc., but not be in _article titles_. --Francis Schonken 10:45, 30 August 2005 (UTC)
  • oppose. This proposal lacks sufficient intelligence. Exception #2 is correctly worded as a safeguard mechanism. Rule #2, however, is the declaration which requires elaboration. #Proposal to add convention to Monarchical Titles Adraeus 17:16, August 31, 2005 (UTC)

Since either way we'll probably have an amendment or other change to the present policy, I propose to add the "Proposed" template to the article, which I think would be helping in the process. --Francis Schonken 09:49, 30 August 2005 (UTC)

Exception 2 is perhaps written too broadly, but, until today, it has always been construed narrowly so that it only refers to monarchs who are almost never referred to with an ordinal. I think we need to rewrite the exception so that it more clearly says what it has always been interpreted to mean, rather than the current ambiguous text which can, I think, be interpreted to mean what Francis is saying. john k 16:58, 30 August 2005 (UTC)

I would support either Philip or Arrigo's wording as an alternative. john k 17:00, 30 August 2005 (UTC)

Francis has changed my initial change to exception 2 to Arrigo's wording which in my opinion is defiantly an improvement on what was there yesterday. But does the wording now protect us from "William the Conqueror" or can the wording be improved upon? -- Philip Baird Shearer 11:14, 31 August 2005 (UTC)
I don't care all that much for the formulation at present, the thing is under revision. To move it to somewhere else on that project page only based on your own evaluation of the discussion that is far from closed, nobody else saying anything on whether or not to have it moved like you proposed, is unsupported (John K. only referred to the wording). Further it is disruptive while all talk, which is still proceeding, refers to "exception 2", so don't make it "exception 4" before the discussion has reached a point.
Further, FYI, I added an elaboration to the "Frederick the Great" requested change, see Talk:Frederick II of Prussia#Discussion, based *exclusively on all printed sources I could lay hands on*, and please appreciate that the present names & titles naming policy, is not the best "encyclopædic standards" guideline wikipedia could have. --Francis Schonken 12:12, 31 August 2005 (UTC)

Proposals: Firstly, I have observed that those exceptions should not be left to be acted upon by individual acts. Therefore, regarding all the exceptions, I propose an additional caveat to be included into NC: "These exceptions may lead to controversial results, whereby it is best to discuss any such idea before naming an article using an exception clause." Arrigo 18:14, 31 August 2005 (UTC)

Secondly, the present Exc 2 actually tries to govern two types of cases, and gets them too confused. One is "best known by a name that does not fit the guidelines" such as Edward the Confessor (because using an ordinal brings impossible situation) and Napoleon and Skanderbeg and Charles Martel and possibly Charles the Fat (re France). The other is "best known by a cognomen" such as William the Conqueror, Frederick the Great, Catherine the Great, William the Silent and Philip the Good, but also such as Henry the Lion, Charlemagne, Louis the Pious and Alfred the Great.

The latter case needs a stricter condition, whereas for those (category 1) anyway is difficult to find a name if a non-systematic solution is not accepted. I would draw a new line for those who do not have any systematic name. "If a person is practically never known by a name that fits the guidelines above, revert to the base rule: use the most common English name." Arrigo 18:14, 31 August 2005 (UTC)

For category 2, the criterion needs sharpening, as previously agreed. My formulation is: "If a person is practically never known by a name that fits the guidelines above (or: by a systematic name) and overwhelmingly best known by a nickname, use the nicknamed one, if NPOV."

NPOV is rather important with nicknames. We do not want Misplaced Pages to endorse use such as Christian the Tyrant.

Combining the wordings of these two is not easy, how sounds "If a person is practically never known by a name that fits the guidelines above, revert to the base rule: use the most common English name. If such a person is overwhelmingly best known by a nickname, use the nicknamed one, if NPOV." Arrigo 18:14, 31 August 2005 (UTC)

This sounds reasonable to me, although it should be noted that Napoleon is, at the moment, at Napoleon I of France. john k 18:29, 31 August 2005 (UTC)

I do not propose now any transfer to Nappy the Emperor. Arrigo 18:32, 31 August 2005 (UTC)
I think correct, as Arrigo did above, to distinguish between the "nicknames" and the "difficult to place in a dynasty" (if that is a correct way of putting it). Several have overlap, of course, "Charles the Fat" is also nickname; The "William the Silent" ambiguity is rooted in the dissociation between being de jure monarch of a real city in the South of France, and being de facto the first in a dynasty of a country that in his own day did not yet exist.
So the distinction is not always all that clear.
Choosing a wikipedia article name that is different from the name that is most used in publications (I mean: not in gossip), when referring to a certain person, is always POV. I have no idea for that Danish King whether at the time of writing wikipedia he is most referred to in publications as "the tyrant" or "II of Denmark", but whatever of the two is most used, is the least POV. Julius Caesar was a dictator, he even was a dictator more than once, it's not up to wikipedia to say he was not: what wikipedians can do is give a complete definition, as NPOV as possible, of what the dictator concept was in Julius Caesar's day. So Julius Caesar is in history books most referred to as Julius Caesar, so that's what the article is named. For that Danish king the same: whatever he is called most often in books and other publications referring to him, that will be the wikipedia article title, all the rest is too much like POV.
Not even the most for that reason, but still most of all because I think things start to go quirky from the moment a sub-guideline giving some of the more elaborate detail of the central guideline (in this case: basic principles of NC) starts to deviate from that general guideline, then there's trouble ahead.
So no, no extra restrictions to the general NC guideline.
And no, we "didn't agree before" contrariwise. Here's four guys (Arrigo, Philip, John and me) discussing something quite essential: whether a sub-guideline can revert a top guideline. My answer is no and even if I'm only 25% of the representants in this part of the discussion, either you convince me, either I convince you, either we have more people in this talk, either, in the end, we have a vote (which in that case in my view should get all the attention it can get), or we go for a deliberation of another kind we all accept, e.g. discuss it on meta, or whatever. But there's no consensus yet. Again, like I did already on John's talk page, I want to apologise for any aggravation I might have caused, which was not intended. I thought it important to have more examples, both from votes and just from what we can find. I think it good we should stay focussed like that. And, let's try to get a grip on this guideline in a constructive manner. --Francis Schonken 20:31, 31 August 2005 (UTC)

Lists of "exception 2 and parallel" examples

this section begun by Francis Schonken 23:30, 30 August 2005 (UTC)

In order to keep focussed maybe best to keep some lists of examples handy. I make several lists (which can be added to, depending on case).

For other Nobility, the parallel exception is included, e.g., in point 1 and 2 of the "Other non-royal names" sections:

  1. Hereditary peerage:

    EXCEPTIONS: When individuals received hereditary peerages after retiring from the post of Prime Minister (unless they are better known for their later career under an additional/alternative title), or for any other reason are known exclusively by their personal names, do not include the peerage dignity. Examples: Anthony Eden (not "Anthony Eden, 1st Earl of Avon"), Bertrand Russell (not "Bertrand Russell, 3rd Earl Russell") (but Henry Addington, 1st Viscount Sidmouth not "Henry Addington").

  2. Life Peers:

    unless the individual is exclusively referred to by personal name

Set examples

This list contains examples that were of old used in guidelines, like the original "Exception #2"

Monarchical
Other

Other examples of old, not yet challenged by a WP:RM

Monarchical
This has nothing to do with exception #2. This has to do with the fact that our rules for how to name people like him were murky for a long time, and that not all of them have been changed to be in conformity with naming conventions. john k 18:01, 31 August 2005 (UTC)
*Exactly* why I wanted to create this list, to have some reference, not "proving" anything in itself --Francis Schonken 09:01, 3 September 2005 (UTC)
Other

More recent examples, resulting from WP:RM's

We'll see what the votes lead up to: checking which ones made it and which ones didn't will make easier to assess how "exception 2" is perceived presently. These examples can be added here:

Monarchical
  • ...
Other

Comments

This seems bass-acwkards to me. We ought to figure out what the criteria should be, and then figure out what articles fit under it. john k 23:58, 30 August 2005 (UTC)

no, I've made no secret I think it best the rules would be somewhat different. Neither did you. So I think it best to have examples, in order to know what the wikipedia community thinks. Then base the criteria on representative examples. Which is completely different from the bass-ackwards way of "inventing" a rule (or: criteria), and then enforce it on the community, whether the rule makes sense or not. --Francis Schonken 00:16, 31 August 2005 (UTC)
Reactive policy-making results in poor governmental efficiency, and conformity. See United States of America for an example. Policy-making must be proactive. Conforming to idiocy is nonsensical. Adraeus 17:20, August 31, 2005 (UTC)
I don't know what you want to clarify with the "United States" example, but you see, you also used an example. And an example that's probably not so related.
Or did you want to warn against pre-emptive, which is a popular strategy in the United States?
Of course, policies need to be proactive, but that doesn't mean they don't have to be based on the best available material. Proactive based on idiosyncracies like "otherwise we'll have to start all over again with the naming conventions" (etc... I give only one sample of the many reactive attitudes going around) is not going to lead us anywhere. This guideline should be the best we are able to put together for a maximum contribution to the quality of wikipedia. If that means, keep it as it is, OK - if that means rewrite, OK too. But it hasn't shown all that proactive since the last major rewrite at the end of 2004. I've given many examples where it lowered the quality of wikipedia (and still can give many more). And it shouldn't have meant so much loss of time so often, for so many wikipedians. You see, I was a major contributor to a completely new guideline about a year ago. The guideline was about a very controversial topic (I started it because there had been some revert wars between robots affecting dozens of articles). The guideline was as self-regulatory as possible, and as a consequence needed little care (just once, someone had put a template connected to the guideline on TfD). A few days ago someone did a major rewrite of the guideline. Although it was so to speak "my baby" I could only look with a positive emotion to that rewrite: the "self-regulatory" had worked. What I mean to say with this is that in the context of a wiki system, self-regulatory is one of the main components of any policy that wants to be proactive, and that's what missing in the nobility titles naming policy for the moment, IMHO --Francis Schonken 21:35, 31 August 2005 (UTC)
The basic problem is that a naming policy cannot be based on voting on a series of unrelated articles. It is quite possible that the voting on each of these articles will result in completely disparate results for similar cases. We can't construct a policy around a bunch of different requested move votes and the fact that a series of articles are at locations that they shouldn't be at by naming standards. john k 22:13, 31 August 2005 (UTC)
Yeah, I think you're right, for the time being - Indeed I had hoped that organising a few votes would show a line, a common ground. In which case it would've been easy. The only line that shows now is that some people appear to vote rather from intuition; others rather from "let's protect the existing guideline". Such mixed votes don't learn much regarding the value of existing and/or future guidelines, while one can't distinguish the one type of vote from the other unambiguously. So all the more appropriate I think to return to wikipedia's basic naming conventions - in which case there would be less difference between "intuitive" and "according to policy" votes.
Anyway, for clarity, I never intended "votes" (= what people say they want) to be more than a small part of the bigger picture on this guideline: also what people are used to, which includes as well in wikipedia ("of old" examples, but also: other NC guidelines), as outside wikipedia (which then includes as well on the internet, as in printed resources, etc...) need IMHO be part of that bigger picture. Further, things that are not possible really to get hold of for wikipedia, but also make part of that bigger picture is what people learnt in school, and: latest developments in scholar research,... In an ideal world all this would work together. Which it doesn't. So choices have to be made. But if making choices without first trying to get a broad grasp of the bigger picture, this would be destined to run against a wall. --Francis Schonken 08:58, 1 September 2005 (UTC)

Unbelievable

This section is also about exception #2, and was written before the #Exception 2 section above was started

Francis, it is unbelievable that you would add examples of titles currently under debate to the naming conventions. We are still deciding where the articles on William the Silent and John the Fearless should be, and it is unacceptable to add them into the rule. And George Sand has nothing to do with this rule at all - the name is a pen name, and we already have rules for pen names. john k 19:54, 29 August 2005 (UTC)

That is not to say that the exception does not apply to them. It may apply to them. Personally, I tend to construe the exception as narrowly as possible, but I can see how other interpretations might be desirable. But that doesn't mean that it's alright to add currently debated articles as examples of a naming convention. john k 19:57, 29 August 2005 (UTC)

As I replied to Philip above: European nobility should be covered by the guideline. Well, it isn't (as you also acknowledge by doubting evident examples). I tried to oblige to Philip's request without delay. I won't let myself be held back by those who live by disputes. If the present text of the guideline is prone to dispute, it is best to adapt it so that it's clearer.
Please don't appropriate this guideline as if your life depends from it. The way it is now it often diminishes the quality of the wikipedia encyclopædia, that is: to the best of my knowledge. It deviates too much from so many other guidelines, that cause less trouble to the wikipedia encyclopædia, to its quality and to the people realising that. --Francis Schonken 20:29, 29 August 2005 (UTC)
Francis - I am not making an argument one way or the other as to whether the rule applies to John the Fearless or William the Silent. I am saying that it is incredibly bad form to, without any consensus to do so, add examples to a naming convention which are from articles where there is an ongoing dispute as to how that article should be named. How would you like it if I added William I, Prince of Orange and John, Duke of Burgundy to their appropriate section of the naming convention? john k 21:37, 29 August 2005 (UTC)

Sigh. It seems that now something is running amok among us. If that something does not soon get calmer in all sorts of moves etc, we possibly need to apply for some block or protection of some pages. It is really not at all productive to destroy naming systematics. This is as bad as those cut+paste moves by the late Antares... Sigh. Arrigo 00:00, 30 August 2005 (UTC)

see oppose/support comment in #Exception 2 section --Francis Schonken 08:15, 30 August 2005 (UTC)

non-Europeans

See also previous: Archive 6#non-Europeans

Hawaiian MoS people are arriving at rough consensus to enact something in following lines: "Articles of Monarchs of Hawaiian Kingdom have the monarch's Hawaiian reign name as the heading, and the ordinal if necessary for disambiguation. For example, Kamehameha IV, Liliuokalani. The possible christened name is not to be included into the heading, and not any other non-reign name. The titulary (Queen, King) is not used in the heading, nor any style or honorific. The territorial designation ("of Hawaii") is not to be used in the heading since there is no necessity to disambiguate on basis of country. The text of the article follow standards and guidelines for WP biographical articles." 217.140.193.123 13:28, 30 August 2005 (UTC)

Muslim countries

Muslim civilization have a common phenomenon with Europeans: same given names common between countries. Thus territorial designation is handy tool for disambiguation. And, also their monarchs havev received (sometimes retrospectively) ordinals. They have their own titulary, though almost everything has European counterparts. Sultan is king. NOW, do we have an Arab revolt in our hands, if we straightforwardly state that European heading standards are direckly applicable to all Muslim royals and nobles? (btw, there isn't a Muslim/Arab MoS project, is there?) Arrigo 00:19, 31 August 2005 (UTC)

An issue, I think, is that in Islamic areas, monarchs, until recently, have been generally identified by dynasty rather than territory. We don't talk about Al-Adil of Egypt, but about the Ayyubid ruler Al-Adil. And so forth. I don't think it would be wise to try to force Muslim monarchs generally identified by dynasty into a format designed for rulers generally identified by territory. But it would be fine, I think, for monarchs of modern countries. Faisal I of Iraq, and what not. john k 18:04, 31 August 2005 (UTC)

Proposal to add convention to Monarchical Titles

Rule #2 states: Where there has only been one holder of a specific monarchical name in a state, the ordinal is used only when the ordinal was in official use. For example, Victoria of the United Kingdom, not Victoria I of the United Kingdom; Juan Carlos I of Spain, not Juan Carlos of Spain.

This rule does not apply to the naming of William I of England. According to the rule, a specific monarchical name regards names such as "Victoria", "Juan Carlos", and "William". IF only a single holder of a specific monarchical name existed in a state, then the second clause of the rule comes into play. The application of the second clause would apply to William I of England if William II of England and William III of England did not exist. Since there is more than a single holder of a specific monarchical name, the ordinal is used regardless of the periodic officiality of ordinal usage. For example, if there were a Victoria II of the United Kingdom, then Victoria of the United Kingdom would be legitimately removed to Victoria I of the United Kingdom.
The following convention is requested to be added as a clause to Rule #2:
The usage of ordinals where there has been more than a single holder of a specific monarchical name is correct and appropriate.
Adraeus 00:10, August 30, 2005 (UTC)

I don't see that this is necessary. It is implicit in the rules as they currently stand, and is how they have always been interpreted to mean. john k 02:03, 31 August 2005 (UTC)

Implicitness is never useful in policy. (See Patriot Act for details.) Rules, guidelines, and principles must be explicit to have any serious effect. By the way, if what you claimed were true, then we wouldn't be have this debate, would we? Adraeus 17:11, August 31, 2005 (UTC)

I oppose the Adraeus proposal, as unnecessary and not clarifying anything. Besides, the debate Adraeus obviously wanted to contribute to, is application of Exception 2, which is debated above. Arrigo 15:55, 31 August 2005 (UTC)

Incorrect. The discussion to which I initiated is that of Rule #2. Exception #2, and therefore your proposal, is irrelevant. Adraeus 17:19, August 31, 2005 (UTC)

Huh? Francis's proposed moved of William I of England is not based on rule #2, which clearly only applies to monarchs who have been the only one of their name. It is based on exception #2. It is your proposal which is clearly irrelevant. john k 18:06, 31 August 2005 (UTC)

Having read and re-read the project page, I think there is some merit in Adraeus's proposal. It seems to me that his purpose is to prevent the exceptions from superseding the rules -- so maybe not essential but not irrelevant either. Deb 21:09, 31 August 2005 (UTC)

Dear Deb, happy you join in on the discussion. Just wanted to remark that the present version of the "names & titles" naming policy indeed had reverted the thing: what should be main policy is in this guideline presented as "one of the exceptions"; What should be clarification and filling in the details of the main policy is in fact a complicated list of exceptions to the main policy. Of course, you can read the policy like you want, but that was how I read it, and how I see the problem with it. --Francis Schonken 21:53, 31 August 2005 (UTC)

I like Adraeus's proposal. It does offer a greater clarity. FearÉIREANN\ 22:19, 31 August 2005 (UTC)

Be bold Adraeus and add it. Personally I do not see the necessity (as it seems to be implied to me by the text that is alreay there), but as others do and it does no harm to what is already there, I am not opposed to it. Philip Baird Shearer 12:56, 3 September 2005 (UTC)

Elizabeth Stuart (that of Bohemia fame) receives odd treatment

The idea in this talkpage is to discuss changes to naming conventions, not of changes to individual articles. 217.140.193.123 20:35, 1 September 2005 (UTC)


I noticed that the eldest daughter of James I of England happened to be located at Elizabeth of Bohemia, which strikes as a less encyclopedic place and as a not neutral name for her to be. I accordingly moved her to pre-marital place, which is presumed to be NPOV, but within minutes, she was again moved to an arguably POV and marital location. It seems to me that persons keeping her at the consort name are same people who elsewhere are more or less forcefully enforcing the pre-marital heading rule. Afaik there has never been a discussion nor consensus that she could even be at the consort location.

(Sadly, those moves also lead to deleting an old page, a dispute at Admin noticeboard/incidents, etc)

This incident has weakened my trust in any "rightfulness" of the rule that requires monarchical consorts to be at pre-marital namings. Also weakens any trust in persons who require this at one place and totally another principle elsewhere.

When I checked google, Elizabeth Stuart seems to be perhaps the most used naming or the person in question. I found no other significant royal with the same name (no one who clearly deserves an article in encyclopedia). (Other Elizabeth Stuart whatevers are plentifully present.) Googling showed that Elizabeth of Bohemia is quite crowded, by various individuals, thus it cannot properly be anything else than a disambiguation page.

Googling also aroused much suspicion whether the so-called Historical Name of consorts is at all true in works of reference, in history and encyclopedias.

But, online Britannica has put her to "Elizabeth Stuart".

According to the current naming convention, she should be at her pre-marital name, as she is a deceased monarchical consort. Whether that is "of England" or "of Scotland", seems relatively easy: England was the bigger, and her father has heading as king of England. "of Bohemia" is (1) POV, and (2) against naming conventions. NC does not leave them in their marital titles. And it is POV as it endorses a pretension to a throne that monarchical couple held disputedly over one winter. No need to battle old Religious Wars again here in Misplaced Pages.

In naming, English Misplaced Pages should not reflect any Anglo-American focus. It is contrary to the neutral point of view. Especially when dealing with articles that require an international perspective, such as naming of a royal who mostly lived in Germany, besides being a daughter of a British monarch, and whose "career" was a knot point between protestants and catholics. The presence of articles written from a United States or British perspective is simply a reflection of the fact that there are many U.S. and British citizens working on the project, which in turn is a reflection of the fact that so many of them are online. This is an ongoing problem that should be corrected by active collaboration from people from other countries. But rather than introducing their own cultural bias, they should seek to improve articles by removing any examples of cultural bias that they encounter, or making readers aware of them. In this naming, there is a clear need of Misplaced Pages:NPOV application, rather than of a cultural bias of a certain country.

Should we change the consort naming in NC, or is its recipe presumed to be NPOV in this case too? Arrigo 13:58, 1 September 2005 (UTC)

(another's comment, which he erased from here afterwards)
Do you mean that the whole rule of "pre-marital naming" is just an anglocentric POV?? Arrigo 16:20, 1 September 2005 (UTC) - i.e, reflecting Anglo-American focus. Written from e.g British perspective. Which has deemed to be an ongoing problem. Contrary to international NPOV. Arrigo 06:26, 2 September 2005 (UTC)
Talk moved to Talk:Elisabeth of Bohemia#Import from Misplaced Pages talk:Naming conventions (names and titles)

The idea in this talkpage is to discuss changes to naming conventions, not of changes to individual articles. 217.140.193.123 20:35, 1 September 2005 (UTC)

However, please note that this is one of several examples where the current convention for royal spouses directly conflicts with the most common English name WP:UE. General suggestions are appropriate here; not that I have one, yet. Septentrionalis 20:49, 1 September 2005 (UTC)
Hi Septentrionalis, I'd suggest to have the present discussion first at one place, that is Talk:Elisabeth of Bohemia - when that discussion leads to a conclusion, I think it easier to bring that conclusion w.r.t. this guideline back here! (note that Arrigo had already triggered a vote on the other page). --Francis Schonken 20:59, 1 September 2005 (UTC)
Actually, I agree with moving the specific discussion there; but it is a general problem. Septentrionalis 23:14, 1 September 2005 (UTC)

Are Arrigo and 217 different users, then? I had assumed they were the same person...huh, odd that. john k 22:18, 1 September 2005 (UTC)

Poll

It has been proposed that the above discussion, as far as it relates to the Electress Palatine in particular, be moved (in its entirety, and therfore including Arrigo's comments above) to Talk:Elisabeth of Bohemia or wherever she ends up.

Support

  • support - Arrigo's argumentation seems exagerrated (especially the part of "deformation of meaning" by putting it on another page). Anyway, there never was an intention to make policy decisions on Elisabeth of Bohemia's talk page. But one can not base policy on an example that does not yet exist; for the example to exist, it has to be known first what the community wishes that page to be named, and that can better not be decided here, but better with the procedure already started on that talk page. The discussion of such non-existing example on this talk page is a discussion without object, and thus void, until the example exists, after which the relevant content (which of course can not include a decision on the NC policy) can be brought back here. If the decision of the name of Elizabeth of Bohemia's page were influenced by speculative talk of possible changes to the guideline on this NC talk page, that would be even worse, while that would not make it a clear decision on what EoB's page should be named, only speculation about guidelines (or it might be still worse, speculation about the intention of persons involved in the discussion). If it would be the case that the decision about the name of EoB's page is too obviously contaminated by such talk here, it would probably be unwise to bring it back here as a "valid" example, but I go from the assumption that will not be the case, that's why I hope the part of the talk as suggested by Septentrionalis will be moved ASAP to the EoB talk page, so that we can welcome it back soon as a valid example. --Francis Schonken 20:39, 2 September 2005 (UTC)

Oppose

Other

Discussion

This is a variant of refactoring, which I do not mind as long as it is done even-handedly, which a straight move would be. Others do, so I put it up for discussion. Septentrionalis 12:37, 2 September 2005 (UTC)

My comments above are intended for discussion about NC policy and are relevant for it. NC policy is not decided on an article's talkpage, thus a move to such a place is improper. I will not consent to any removal of my those comments above, and I will regard their move/removal/deletion etc as Misplaced Pages:Vandalism. Their removal from here affects substantially their content and changes their meaning, in the sense that they no longer are in relevant place, having their effect on NC pölicy discussion. This is not a matter for any voting. This vote is inappropriate and should be deleted, which primarily is the task of its proposer (though admins may help). Arrigo 12:49, 2 September 2005 (UTC)

Proper refactoring that preserves information is not vandalism. Please assume good faith and don't throw around charges of vandalism. If a discussion was moved and the move was done in a transparent fashion, there's nothing wrong with that. --MarkSweep✍ 01:24, 3 September 2005 (UTC)

Note that in the course of the day Arrigo has been responsible for more contamination of examples (some of the examples "of old", and at least one that is currently undergoing a vote procedure). That's why I'm happy I started the "of old" lists with the situation in the early phase of the talk about "exception 2 and parallel". I, for my part, have said above that I think it would be unwise to try to trigger more examples at this stage, since some were already contaminated (at least the last two votes I triggered myself, that will probably never make it as an example to this page), so that's when I wrote above I thought it would now be wiser to avoid triggering new votes. --Francis Schonken 20:39, 2 September 2005 (UTC)

Further at this point in time "Exception #2 and parallel" can not be named "official policy" (however it is formulated): see template on top of the policy page which states "...can not be referred to as policy", which, with the note under that template ONLY APPLIES TO "EXCEPTION 2 AND PARALLEL". And don't start playing games that that temporarily would "abolish" exception 2, so that whatever edit that would normally fall under that exception is now "without rules": all other guidelines still apply, including "general NC guidelines" which perfectly cover what would be lacking if "exception 2" weren't there. As there is discussion about "precedence" of general NC guidelines over this particular NC guideline (or the other way around), all users aware of this discussion and USING exception 2 or it's opposite to justify edits would without exception be "gaming the system" in the WP:POINT meaning. --Francis Schonken 20:39, 2 September 2005 (UTC)

Ordinals of medieval personages

I want to draw attention to the fact that almost without exception, ordinals were not yet in contemporary use in medieval monarchies and fiefs. I am mostly (perhaps always) in favor of ordinals, as it is a systematic way to keep disambiguated persons who had much-reused first names. Our justification for using ordinals for them comes from retrospective assignations made by those monarchies later, and/or by genealogists and historians, etc, alrasy for centuries now. Such ordinals are nowadays frequently used, although the persons themselves and their contemporaries would have stared blank looks and replied "whaat!!" if they had been to hear current usages. Would we need to draw a line that an ordinal is to be used only if another, respectable source has used it. Arrigo 08:21, 5 September 2005 (UTC)

Ordinals are indices, which help us analyze, organize, and collect data into useful information. Nothing more, nothing less. We are not medieval scholars so to "see as they saw" is unnecessary. We are of the present day, and therefore, we look back on history to study and learn. Indices help focus our attention. Adraeus 00:51, September 6, 2005 (UTC)
I think Arrigo draws the proper distinction - we should not make up our own ordinals that are never used. But using, say, Antiochus II Theos seems perfectly appropriate to me - the fellow is universally called "Antiochus II" by scholars, even if nobody at the time ever called him that. john k 02:10, 6 September 2005 (UTC)
The usage of ordinals where there has been more than a single holder of a specific monarchical name in a state is correct and appropriate in Misplaced Pages. Whether the holder of a name was attributed an ordinal during their lifetime has no bearing on whether names are attributed ordinals in Misplaced Pages; however, if the holder of a name was not attributed an ordinal during their lifetime and that same holder of a name was the only person to hold that name, monarchically, in a state, then the ordinal should not be attributed in Misplaced Pages. Adraeus 06:16, September 6, 2005 (UTC)
Adraeus, should your comment be interpreted that we are to make an ordinal for a monarch who fulfills your criteria (=more than one) although no respectable source uses such and it was not used in their lifetime? Arrigo 06:50, 6 September 2005 (UTC)
Adraeus seems again to be misinterpreting what is being proposed. William I of England, and so forth, are conventionally used, and are fine, and I don't think Arrigo is disputing that. But what do with Louis the Younger, say? Or Louis the Child? john k 07:18, 6 September 2005 (UTC)

Louis the Younger and Louis the Child: one option is to assign ordinals III and IV to them, treat them as systematic elements of the queue of kings of Germany. And to put a further ordinal "V" to Louis the Bavarian, Louis IV, Holy Roman Emperor. I would not appreciate such solution very much, however. (Unless there were evidence that authoritative sources treat them as kings Louis III of Germany and Louis IV of Germany...) - Another option is to leave them at the nickname naming. Arrigo 11:13, 6 September 2005 (UTC)

Nicknames should not be used in titles unless there is only a nickname by which the subject is named (e.g., "James the Steward" of William Wallace fame.) Your consistent reference to what so-called "respectable sources" do or do not is trite and obnoxious. Naming conventions, which are components of a style manual, are organizationally independent. Misplaced Pages is an independent organization and, thus, develops its own style guidelines. That is, Misplaced Pages's style guidelines are separate from that of other organizations' style guidelines. Unlike printed encyclopediae, Misplaced Pages is database-centric and, therefore, its style guidelines are focused on not only proper usage and appearance but also on optimization (e.g., article size limitations and indices.) Ordinals are indices regardless of whether the holder of name used ordinals or not, and in Misplaced Pages, we use ordinals as indices for all applicable subjects in order to maintain a consistent appearance of the information and disambiguation that we provide readers. Adraeus 04:21, September 7, 2005 (UTC)
By the way, Louis the Younger, Louis the Child, and Louis the Bavarian should be renamed to adhere to the naming conventions. Adraeus 04:21, September 7, 2005 (UTC)
Louis the Bavarian is named to adhere to naming standards. That article is a redirect, the main article is at Louis IV, Holy Roman Emperor. As to the other two, I have no idea what the proper numeration would be. The Empero Louis IV is always so numbered. Emperor Louis I is Louis the Pious, and then Emperors Louis II and III ruled only in Italy. Louis the German, Louis the Younger, and Louis the Child are not usually given ordinals, because they do not fit in the proper sequence of Louis ordinals to which Louis IV fits. To move Louis the Child to Louis IV of Germany would be particularly noxious, since this latter name would much more likely be used by someone looking for Emperor Louis IV than someone looking for Louis the Child. Louis III of Germany is quite ambiguous - I could imagine someone using it for either Louis the Younger or Louis the Child. I see no other place to put these monarchs than at Louis the German, Louis the Younger, and Louis the Child. Of these, only Louis the Younger is at all ambiguous (it being shared with Louis VII of France), but a disambiguation notice at the top would seem sufficient. It is not wikipedia's job to make up "consistent" ordinals for monarchs not normally referred to by an ordinal. john k 05:00, 7 September 2005 (UTC)
Misplaced Pages has disambiguation pages for good reasons. See Louis and William for examples. Notice that the Ludwigs of France and Germany are easily categorized? I'm reasonably certain that a "Louis of France" and a "Louis of Germany" are extremely separable. By the way, the responsibility of making ordinal usage consistent is, indeed, that of Misplaced Pages. See style manual for an explanation. Adraeus 05:18, September 8, 2005 (UTC)
Regarding your examples...
Kings of the East Franks
Notes:
  1. (Eastern) Francia is not the same as France. In fact, Eastern Francia (or East Franks) is now Germany.
  2. "Germany" could be any of the following depending on the degree of the subject's history: Eastern Francia, Saxony, Thuringia, Bavarian.
The nickname should not be attributed to the article name unless only by that nickname is the subject recorded. Adraeus 05:41, September 8, 2005 (UTC)

But you are just making these ordinals up, except for Louis I of France. Louis the Pious was also King of Germany, and by all rights should be Louis I of Germany (as Charlemagne is Charles I). The other ordinals simply aren't used, and certainly not for the personages you want to attach them to. The Encarta article on Louis the German is at "Louis II (of Germany)." So far as I can tell, every single reference to "Louis II of Germany" is a reference to Louis the German. And there's only 46 google hits for it. Most of the hits for "Louis III of Germany" do appear to be for Louis the Child. But there's no reason to parse this confusing ordination when these people have cognomens that are universally used and unique. These monarchs were not in their own time known by ordinals, and to try to figure out retrospectively what their ordinals should be is both deeply confusing and completely unnecessary. The early Frankish kings are an instance where use of cognomens is clearly the best way to go. john k 06:04, 8 September 2005 (UTC)

Certain titles of medieval personages

Our policy of assigning the title (usually prince/princess) to non-reigning royals also in Middle Ages, and altogether the idea that non-reigning royals (and corresponding) could be distinguished from identically named reigning monarchs and their consorts just by using a title in heading of the first-mentioned class, is straigthforwardly contrary to idea that only titles that were used and recognized, are to be used here. I do not appreciate that using such titling rule for headings, we would be endorsing some title that was actually not used nor recognized. That would be even worse than endorsing monarchical pretensions, as it is endorsement to retrospective titling. Almost without exception, the concept of "prince" was not yet in contemporary use in medieval monarchies and fiefs for a courtesy title. The persons themselves and their contemporaries would have stared blank looks and replied "whaat!!" if they had been to hear such titles of themselves. Arrigo 08:28, 5 September 2005 (UTC)

I agree with this. We shouldn't call people Princes if they were not themselves called princes. This applies, I think, to pre-Hanoverian members of the British royal families. Before her accession, Elizabeth I would have normally been "The Lady Elizabeth," and not "The Princess Elizabeth." But there are some exceptions to this. john k 02:11, 6 September 2005 (UTC)

I had thought that Stuarts already (at least sometimes) used "Prince, Princess". Any contrary evidence? Arrigo 06:15, 6 September 2005 (UTC)

Not with any consistency. The Prince of Wales was obviously a prince, and so was the Princess Royal (only one Stuart Princess Royal, though). I am not aware that Charles I's other daughters were normally referred to as "Princess," however. I am fairly certain that James II's children by Anne Hyde were never referred to as Prince or Princess. James and his younger brother Henry were "the Duke of York" and "the Duke of Gloucester," and were not normally "Prince James" or "Prince Henry" that I am aware of. Not sure about Elizabeth of Bohemia, or Charles I before his brother's death. But I think the basic issue is that they may have been sometimes called Prince or Princess, but that this was not a formal title in the sense that it would be under the Hanoverians. john k 07:13, 6 September 2005 (UTC)

Like ordinals of medieval personages, it does not realy matter what they were called by their contemporaries. As a guide, we should be using whatever is used in modern authoritative histories. Is there any consistency in them? Philip Baird Shearer 08:43, 6 September 2005 (UTC)
I beg to disagree. Ordinals is a different matter imo, as it is to help disambiguation and to create systematics (and ordinals do not interfere but only slightly with the actual name), but to endorse titles that were not used at all, it is beyond NPOV. I do not care if some (imo misguided) romantics use, they always use an overabundance of titles anyway. Besides, as far as I know, modern historians, genealogists and heraldry experts do not consistently use retrospective title (and the less, the more competent the expert is). So, to answer to that question, no consistency, except perhaps historians in usually not using any courtesy titles at all. Arrigo 11:20, 6 September 2005 (UTC)
Let's not confuse retrospective titles (i.e., those assigned after the life of a person) with courtesy titles, which are a completely different thing (e.g., Lord North). Choess 12:35, September 6, 2005 (UTC)
I believe James's daughters could be "Princesses"; but the situation is complicated. They were both married to "Princes", although Prince George of Denmark was not a reigning prince anywhere, IIRC. Compare "Hamlet, Prince of Denmark" who was also son of a monarch. Septentrionalis 17:13, 6 September 2005 (UTC)

Oh, after their marriage they were definitely called Princesses, because their husbands were princes. I was only referring to how they were referred prior to their marriages. john k 17:34, 6 September 2005 (UTC)

Before their marriages they were daughters of the Duke of York; I see no reason they would be called Princesses. Septentrionalis 22:42, 7 September 2005 (UTC)

The daughters of the current Duke of York, in an analogous position, are princesses. Under the current system, James's children would, as agnatic grandchildren of a monarch, have been princes and princesses. Under the pre-1917 system, even agnatic great-grandchildren of the monarch were princes and princesses. This does not seem to have been the case before the Hanoverian succession. john k 05:56, 8 September 2005 (UTC)

New initiative

I'm one of those who think that the "Names and Titles" naming conventions guideline could be written in a format that makes it sound less as an exception to general wikipedia principles on article naming.

The issue has been discussed recently on severeral talk pages, and there appears to be a group of wikipedians that neither wants to get really involved, neither is particularily fond of the present complications for naming a "lucky-by-birth stiff who had some pretentions to a hereditary right to rule others or had the remotest ancestral connections to such a person"

The problem is, these wikipedians have no alternative: either it's the complicated "exception" rule, either it's only the basic rules that lead to ambiguity in many cases of article naming on persons.

That's why I announce here my plan to start a {{proposed}} guideline for dealing with article naming of articles on people. I think the logical name for such guideline would be:

Misplaced Pages:Naming conventions (people)

Using a guideline name differing from the existing ones, as long as it's merely a proposal, also helps not to disturb existing rules (and their talk pages) too much: while in the end it might result in no more than a few ideas of this proposition being "absorbed" by other guidelines (or the other way around). But that's for the wikipedia community to decide then. First I try to cooperate in building a valid alternative, better in line with general Naming Conventions guidelines. --Francis Schonken 11:56, 7 September 2005 (UTC)

I strongly oppose this idea. Even if there are serious problems with this page as it stands (I disagree, but for the sake of argument...), I think the kinds of things that Francis has been objecting to could easily be solved by a few changes to this page, rather than starting over from scratch. Most of the rules here were devised so as to have some kind of consistency in naming of people who are referred to very similarly, but for whom the proper page title is not clearly evident from the "use common names" rule. What Francis is proposing is to essentially ditch the entire body of conventions that have been arrived at over a period of several years, and which for the most part work to insure that we know where page titles should be, simply because he thinks articles like Frederick II of Prussia ought to be at Frederick the Great. Even if we believe that this latter goal is a correct one, there are much easier ways to achieve it than to abandon this entire page. An expansion in the meaning of exception 2 would do well enough. john k 15:59, 8 September 2005 (UTC)

Easy, Easy, Easy - is this just creating havoc, for the fun of creating havoc? Misplaced Pages:Naming conventions (names and titles) was linked from the new proposed guideline from the start. I never said I wanted to do away with this. In between both Misplaced Pages:Naming conventions (Western nobility) and Misplaced Pages:Naming conventions (Western clergy) exist, safeguarding all the "rules" of Misplaced Pages talk:Naming conventions (names and titles), apart from putting "exceptions" where they should be according to the views I have expressed several times on this page. No problem for merging pages if opinions start to concur. In the mean while (1) I did the talk here; (2) If it's possible to do the few adaptations proposed by me to Misplaced Pages:Naming conventions (names and titles), I'll proceed with it without delay; (3) I didn't bother you all the while I was working on the alternative proposition. --Francis Schonken 20:36, 8 September 2005 (UTC)
Well said. I would like to give an example of how the current naming convention helped me recently. It is one thing to argue for common names for people like Frederick the Great but the vast majority of people who come under the direction of this page are not well known and may well hold multiple titles. Without the rules this page imposes finding them can be difficult.
There is a page called the First English Civil War based on the text of 1911 Encyclopaedia Britannica which needed Wikifying. Lots of the people named on that page were only given by title. For example the "Earl of Essex" and "Earl of Forth". For someone like the Earl of Essex it is easy to find out who that is. But even if it was not, a look up of Earl of Essex gives a list and then it is a matter of picking the correct one. In the case of Earl of Forth the page was a redirect to Earl of Brentford which was a redirect to Duke of Schomberg now this page was clearly not the correct one. So a quick message on the user page who had made the redirect explaining the problem and within a few hours the Earl of Brentford page had been edited to include mention of the earlier earl. With this information I was able to find a 1911 Encyclopaedia Britannica reference to the Earl and create a page. If it had not been for the consistency which this page brings, finding the correct person to link to would have taken much longer, particularly as the chap had three different titles during the war and is often referred to by the senior title he held at the time which is being written about. He is not the only one like that, who had multiple titles during this and other conflicts. Philip Baird Shearer 16:58, 8 September 2005 (UTC)
For me, presently I try to find out what Marie-José of Belgium should actually be called according to Misplaced Pages:Naming conventions (names and titles) - well it's "unclear", that's the least that can be said, so I'll probably wait till the new set of guidelines is approved by the community. Could in the mean while someone help me out how she was called the month she was Queen in Italy (the time she was princess there it appears to have been (Princess) Maria de Piemonte, but I couldn't find out whether she kept that name on ascension, from the documentary they just showed on TV. --Francis Schonken 20:36, 8 September 2005 (UTC)
Notes
  1. I always said that lists and other techniques were better to deal with this than page names. The rest of the example nowhere explains that the most logical & used pagename would have been contraproductive in this example. It all depended on redirects. The alleged "consistency" is nowhere related to whether or not "exception 2" is applied. "Three titles" are never all three mentioned in the page name, so the example appears irrelevant for supporting resitance for the change I propose. --Francis Schonken 20:36, 8 September 2005 (UTC)

Princesses by marriage after death

What is the convention of titles of articles on princesses by marriage who are dead? Will Princess Lilian of Sweden be "Lilian Davies" when she dies? Or will it stay Princess Lilian?

The above question was apparently made by User:Matjlav.


Well, the NC (or at least its wording) is totally unclear about consorts of lower royals and of monarchs lower than kings. On one hand, we jhave the NC for deceased wives of peers: use the peerage title received by marriage. On the other, "royal consorts" (which may mean only consorts of kings) are to be reverted to pre-marital names. There seems to be a bunch of princess consorts floating around WP who have not got reverted to pre-marital name. Of course there also seem to be those consorts of royal peers and/or of sovereigns lower than kings who are mentioned by their maiden names. (I blame over-focus to kings and queens - hat probably hindered consideration of a numerous bunch of women, those who have been consorts of various sorts of princes and dukes).

I support simplicity, however using some such name under which the person gained the notability to even have an article here, and therefore I would propose Lilian, Duchess of Halland - please find out which NC clauses provide for that result. Arrigo 20:44, 7 September 2005 (UTC)

I agree that the naming convention has not yet addressed this issue. Currently, articles on such ladies have a bewildering variety of titles. I'm not sure what is to be done. john k 21:13, 7 September 2005 (UTC)

Yes, it's still an open issue. "Princesses by marriage" implies women who wouldn't otherwise have a royal title (women who were already princesses by birth would presumably retain their own title if they just married someone of the same "rank"). I would suggest that, unless they are well known in some other sphere (eg. Grace Kelly), they take their married title (eg. Princess Michael of Kent). If they are widowed, they are likely to be given another title (eg. Princess Alice, Duchess of Gloucester), which should be the one they retain after they die. (Of course, I realise this doesn't entirely answer the question.) Deb 21:37, 7 September 2005 (UTC)

Princesses who marry princes from other countries (e.g. the Duchess of Connaught) need their own convention. As should royal princesses who rule sub-king monarchs (e.g. Victoria's daughter Alice), ought also to have a convention. john k 06:07, 8 September 2005 (UTC)