Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 09:31, 31 July 2008

If you're here to leave a message about an article I've deleted, please check the deletion summary. If it contains the words "Expired PROD", then the article was deleted via the proposed deletion process. This means that another user (not me) tagged the article for deletion. If there was no objection within a 5-day period and the rationale appeared sound, then I deleted the article. If you think the deletion was mistaken and the article meets the notability criteria, then please leave me a note here and I'll restore the article for a formal discussion at articles for deletion.

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July 2006—January 2007 Feb 2007—March 2007 March 2007 April 2007 May 2007–July 2007 Old odds and ends Admin stuff, RfA through June 2007 July 2007 July–August 2007 August 2007 September 2007 September 2007 September 2007–October 2007 November 2007 November 2007–January 2008 January 2008 February 2008–March 2008 March 2008–May 2008 June 2008 June 2008–present (Date ranges are approximate)

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Rife Reversion And Revision...

I noticed you reverted all my recent edits regarding Royal Raymond Rife. I can understand if you think those edits were unsubtatiated. They were. Though my own personal experience has proved to me their validity. On the other hand, I've removed a few sentences which I found to be highly biased and infamitory. Some of the things in those sentences were referenced, however the references themselves were extremely weak inasmuch as they were based solely upon opninion, WITHOUT ANY empirical evidence. Therefore, while you are certainly "bigger" as an administrator, in the interest of fairness, I would very much appreciate you leaving it more or less as is now. Or, at the very leased not reverting my edit in its entirety. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.165.73.193 (talk) 23:40, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

The important difference here is between personal opinion and experience, which doesn't really have a place in a Misplaced Pages article, vs. verifiable material from a reliable source which you may find "biased and inflammatory", but which nonetheless has a place in a Misplaced Pages article. MastCell  23:50, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

Please allow me to ask you three questions:

1. In the Cancer Society paper referenced by the present Rife Wiki article, in which various have restored to the article, specifically the part pertaining to rife, is what is written opinion, or is any empirical data offered?

2. While people may have died (I know of only one case, actually) while using Rife type devices, is it not indisputable that thousands upon thousands of people have died during and after treatment for cancer by chemotherapy?

3. Would you take the time to view the third video at www.rifevideos.com, the film of Rife's lab, and tell me what you think? I saw it for the first time last night, and I'd sincerely like to know your opinion of it.

Sincere Regards. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.165.73.193 (talk) 01:44, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

1. In general, the scientific method demands evidence in support of a hypothesis. It does not accept a hypothesis off the bat and then demand that it be disproven. The American Cancer Society article makes clear that there is absolutely no evidence to substantiate the claims made by marketers of Rife devices. Whether you choose to call that "opinion" or "empirical data" is not particularly relevant.

2. I'll assume you're serious, and that you don't see a difference between a fraudulently marketed, completely untested device and chemotherapy, which has been systematically and rigorously studied in hundreds, thousands, or tens of thousands of patients with widely published and scrutinized statistics on efficacy and side effects. Chemotherapy has actually, demonstrably saved peoples' lives, while Rife devices have not, beyond the dubious and unverified anecdotes offered in marketing material. You set up a completely meaningless comparison. I can guarantee that more people have died from using penicillin than from using a Rife device, but... you see where I'm going, right? It would actually be more dangerous to treat one's syphilis with a Rife device than with pencillin.

3. I'm sorry, no. MastCell  23:50, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

Nassim Haramein!

This guy has a WP article! His 'theory', is. unfortunately, not that new: "World's Top Scientists Ponder: What If The Whole Universe Is, Like, One Huge Atom?". What is WP coming to......... Yilloslime (t) 03:41, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

Interesting reading, at least... MastCell  23:39, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

An unbelievable witch hunt

1. K4T takes a Wikibreak from Obama related articles.

2. LotLE posts an endless series of snide remarks, personal attacks and false accusations against Noroton and WB74.

3. Noroton approaches LotLE and requests removal of the false accusation against Noroton. LotLE complies, but he leaves his personal attacks and false accusations against WB74 intact.

4. Since he is on Wikibreak, K4T is unaware of Event #3.

5. Upon his return, K4T notices LotLE's attacks against WB74 and starts going through LotLE's diffs on the page, copying all of his snide remarks, personal attacks and false accusations, including the one against Noroton that had been refactored.

6. K4T posts all of these excerpts as part of a warning to LotLE to stop making such offensive remarks or he will be reported.

7. And MastCell blocks .... K4T ?!?!?

This is outrageous. Kindly unblock K4T. Since his return from Wikibreak, his conduct has been excellent. A review of the diffs confirms that he was trying to post a warning to LotLE. WorkerBee74 (talk) 12:19, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

Yes, I saw your cross-post of this note to WP:AN/I. Blocking K4T is not an indication that he's the only one behaving unconstructively on those pages. I don't agree that your chronology is representative. Basically, LotLE made an inappropriate comment. He was asked to refactor it, and he did, which is something we should be encouraging (of course, better still would be not to make the inflammatory comment in the first place, but baby steps...) When an editor has reflected on something they've said and toned it down in the interest of harmony, the absolute wrong thing to do is to re-post their original comment for them in order to berate them about it. This could, conceivably, have a role on LotLE's user talk page, which is usually the best place to attempt de-escalation, warnings, etc, but bringing it all back to Talk:Barack Obama is guaranteed to produce maximum disruption. Hence the block. I do not see a reason to lift it at this point; I will of course agree to an unblock if there is a signficant feeling among uninvolved admins and editors on WP:AN/I that one is warranted. I'm also willing to look at misconduct by LotLE, or other editors, should you wish to provide diffs here or at WP:AN/I. MastCell  17:45, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

How about some science

Can you take a look at CIITA? I'm an old fart, and I don't keep up with biochemistry much these days. But this article gives me a headache trying to read it. I figured between you and Tim Vickers, it'll be a work of art. But it reads like OR. OrangeMarlin 19:35, 6 July 2008 (UTC)

I think we should have notability criteria for genes, you know, like WP:GENE or something. I'll see what I can do, but "science" and "molecular biology" give me a headache. MastCell  19:45, 6 July 2008 (UTC)

Then you're approaching uselessness around here.  :) OrangeMarlin 01:24, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

"Approaching"? You're kinder than most. MastCell  05:49, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

CNN

http://www.cnn.com/2008/HEALTH/conditions/07/06/lymedisease.treatment/index.html Antelan 03:35, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

That is to say, (1) attractive people can get into the news for any reason, and (2) even barely-literate CNN cites the 70-80% number for EM. Antelan 03:37, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

Hmm. I have some thoughts about this whole situation, but Misplaced Pages is probably not the appropriate forum for them. Thanks for the link - interesting reading. MastCell  06:03, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

Sanity

Re . I think you were sensible, though it was funny William M. Connolley (talk) 21:19, 10 July 2008 (UTC)

No big...

Wasn't taken the wrong way. Suggested changes to ArbCom on the RFC, if you want to give it a read. :) SirFozzie (talk) 21:22, 10 July 2008 (UTC)

I'll take a look. Thanks for understanding. MastCell  21:23, 10 July 2008 (UTC)

Anon. GoodFaith

I'll note his IP or main account has hit my autoblock at MBisanz 18:35, 11 July 2008 (UTC)

Quick note

Thank you for the personal welcome to Misplaced Pages that you issued me over a year ago. I've enjoyed being a contributing member since then. Reinderien 06:38, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

Glad to hear it. Hope things are going well. MastCell  16:43, 14 July 2008 (UTC)

Ludwigs2 (talk · contribs)

I have been asked, if not ordered, to be a civil editor. I have attempted to be so despite the personal attacks and tendentious editing of this editor. I believe it's time for Ludwigs to be shown the door. He doesn't play so nice.  :) OrangeMarlin 06:58, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

Does that mean that it is RfC/U time already? (I also corrected the typo in the template above.) - Eldereft (cont.) 11:01, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

I do not get the reference. Sorry. OrangeMarlin 14:44, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

Allegations of apartheid deletion notification

Some time ago, you participated in a deletion discussion concerning Allegations of Chinese apartheid. I thought you might like to know that the parent article, Allegations of apartheid, was recently nominated for deletion. Given that many of the issues that have been raised are essentially the same as those on the article on which you commented earlier, you may have a view on whether Allegations of apartheid should be kept or deleted. If you wish to contribute to the discussion, please see Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Allegations of apartheid (fifth nomination). -- ChrisO (talk) 17:47, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

Wait... let me get out my trusty ten-foot pole, since I swore never to come closer than that to any of those accursed articles ever again... MastCell  22:28, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

Ten feet might be a bit short... ;-) -- ChrisO (talk) 22:50, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

Thanks

I got a laugh out of this edit . I don't have any opinion either way on the topic but I find your writing style humorous. Thanks! --mboverload@ 04:12, 13 July 2008 (UTC)

Take a look at my proposed wording for the "neutrality of tone" section

Please take a look through the "Synthesis of MC, SDY, HA, LW2 concerns" subsection on the NPOV talk page.

I've been working to draft a variant of your proposed wording. I made changes that I don't beleive change the principles you're going for, but I would greatly appreciate your feedback before I put it up for consensus discussion. HatlessAtless (talk) 17:56, 14 July 2008 (UTC)

Will do. MastCell  18:42, 14 July 2008 (UTC)

Muntuwandi

As the blocking admin, I would appreciate if you could keep an eye on Misplaced Pages:Requests for checkuser/Case/Muntuwandi and Origin of religion. Apparently users are posting obvious socks on the first; the second is still a breeding ground for socks. The Evil Spartan (talk) 18:41, 14 July 2008 (UTC)

OK, I've watchlisted both and extended the semiprotection on Origin of religion for another 2 weeks, though of course this will have only a limited effect. I'll keep an eye out; if you see obvious socks, feel free to report them to me here or by email and I'll try to look into them more quickly than what you'd get at WP:AN/I or WP:SSP. MastCell  18:48, 14 July 2008 (UTC)

Hm. What do you think of Moontowandi (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)?  Sandstein  06:15, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

Yup. But it looks like Sam Korn beat me to it. MastCell  15:57, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

Unified log-on

it's easy - takes seconds and your account is created right across "the family". --Allemandtando (talk) 19:10, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

POV in David Reardon

Hi, MC. I've been pretty much inactive for about two months. Now I notice that IAA has practically vandalized David Reardon. She has removed everything that doesn't support her POV, rephrased things in line with her POV, and even removed perfectly good references. I try to AGF but it is very hard to assume that she was making a good faith effort to improve the article. I don't own the article and don't want to own it but somebody has to defend the article from POV-pushing. I intend to revert her edits. I wish I had the time and energy to engage in a talk page discussion in an honest effort to improve the article. I'd appreciate hearing your opinion about her edits and if you would keep an occasional eye on the article. Sbowers3 20:26, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

I was wondering when those articles would flare up again, though I had purposely committed to self-exile for a few months after the close of the ArbCom case to let things take their course and to avoid being accused of profiting from ArbCom's decision. Actually, I was wondering where you'd gone, since you were making good progress on them, I thought. I am loathe to get reinvolved, though I will look at the page again (I think I'd actually de-watchlisted it, or else I've just programmed myself to ignore its appearance on my watchlist). In general, I think the changes you were working on last time I looked, a few months ago, were positive ones. MastCell  20:31, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

Question

Why did I think of you when uncertain of this edit? I don't know enough of the systems to know if it's talking about intra or extracellular but I do know that it makes a difference. WLU (talk) 13:26, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

Well, extracellular is correct. A fine point, though - the original text was intercellular, not intracellular. While "intercellular" is non-standard terminology, I think both versions have the same gist: histamine and other mediators are released from the cell into the environment. MastCell  15:36, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

Oops, me stupid. Thanks! WLU (talk) 17:15, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

No, it's not stupid at all - it took me a minute to catch the intra/inter thing, since it's an odd way of phrasing things. MastCell  18:36, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

Rsveratrol

Why did you leave a 3-revert warring warning on my talk page, but did not leave a similar warning on Paul Gene's page? He reverted my edits twice, but i reverted his only once. My first edit was to add content to his content, which he reverted. My second edit was to delete the errors of fact in his comments after i reviewed his reference. He stated that leukemia, lung, and pancreas, had shown no improvement after injections, and yet injections were not mentioned for those, and benefit had been shown for leukemia and pancreas. For reasons you have not explained, you also disagreed with these facts. So he reverted my edits again, without explaining his errors in fact, so i made probably my first revert after years of posting on wiki, while he made maybe his 10th revert on the resveratrol article, which i pointed out in the revert. Please use fairness and due consideration when policing wikipedia. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.214.120.227 (talk) 14:44, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

I didn't warn Paul Gene because he's been around long enough to be aware of the three-revert rule, so a warning would be superfluous. The warning is a courtesy; its purpose is not to "punish" you, but to make sure you're aware of this site's policies on edit-warring. Paul Gene (and I) are bound by them just as much as you are.

I don't want to debate content issues here, but Paul's reading of the source was reasonable. For example, you cite a "benefit" shown in pancreatic cancer. The source actually indicates that there have been some interesting in vitro results with cell lines, but that resveratrol was ineffective in an in vivo hamster model of pancreatic cancer. Paul's edit more accurately reflected this. MastCell  15:32, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

As my talk page says, I've been around a while too, so you're still being selective. You do not want to discuss content here, so i won't point out the 4 places you're wrong so far. That you do not wish to know where you're making errors is no surprise. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.214.120.227 (talk) 16:18, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

Since you've been around awhile, have you found a hostile, abusive tone to be effective here? Do you think that personal attacks in edit summaries are helpful? If you're already familiar with this site's policies, then I'll skip the templates and just tell you that you're behaving inappropriately and unconstructively. I'd be happy to discuss the reasons why you believe me to be wrong, but would prefer to do so on Talk:Resveratrol rather than here. MastCell  16:21, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

I appreciate the reminder of the personal attack rule as i am apt to identify the source of problems without regard to social consequences. My belief is that you take an opposite approach: in this case i believe you have placed social pleasantries above the facts, by perceiving me to be more at social fault without regard to if i am factually correct. I would like to see wikipedia place facts first, which i guess could go against your principles. I have added a section to the end of the discussion section of resveratrol. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.214.120.227 (talk) 16:42, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

You know, I'm actually pretty hard to bait most days, not that you need to stop trying. :) In fact, in my initial post to this thread, I identified areas where I felt you were both factually incorrect and at "social fault". Anyhow, I'll drop by the article talk page. MastCell  16:44, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

Paul actually said it was mice, not hamster, a factual error, and i believe i had clarified that the benefit was in vitro only, a fact, not error. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.214.120.227 (talk) 17:00, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

Inappropiate Links

Inappropiate linking- please explain. You have not provided any info on why you have deemed the links inappropriate. Have you even looked at the linked site and read the white papers on the subject of HIPAA encryption? I am in the process of adding references to back up the claim. Thanks for your time and I will try to continue to add useful info. Also, please add the external link for HIPAA back since it is related and has related white papers on the site relating to HIPAA encrypted email. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Metamorph123 (talk • contribs) 01:30, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

Replied on your talk page. MastCell  04:12, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

Robert Young (author)

First, thanks for the clean-up work on this article today. Second, I think I have identified an instance of SYN in the article, but I'd love for your input. Thanks, MastCell! -- Levine2112 17:18, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

You should also know...

LOL. Shhh, don't tell everybody the dark secrets!!!!! Shot info (talk) 22:50, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

The most unfair part was being accused of opposing heath freedom (sic). I think they should be free - I never have change for the damn vending machine. MastCell  23:07, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

A concern

I know I should be assuming the assumption of good faith, but it's failing me, and I apologize.

The article should have a broad scope of coverage, and the opinions of noted individuals are a reasonable inclusion in the article, but leaving them out does not mean that the article was intentionally biased.

Defending science against the unwashed hordes is great and all, but "The article as currently written goes to great lengths to obscure that basic, vitally important fact in a blizzard of confidence intervals..." goes a bit far.

That it's not written in a fashion that will browbeat a reader with the obvious and stated conclusion and forces the reader to actually look at issues like confidence intervals and data quality instead of a litany of "sound bites"... is that so awful? SDY (talk) 07:37, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

I dunno... maybe I need to let it go. That was actually one of the first articles I worked on when I started out here, so it's hard to see the big picture sometimes. I do think RoyBoy edits in good faith, and that he genuinely wants the article to be as good and accurate as it can be, so I should probably start from that point. At the same time, I think we (RoyBoy and I) have fundamentally different ideas of what the article should look like. I won't bore you with the details here, but people come through and try to address what they believe to be areas needing improvement, and ultimately they get discouraged, the article looks the same, and they move on.

I agree with you that encouraging people to look at detail is important. But you work in the health care field, so I'm sure you understand the other side: someone considering a medical decision deserves a clear, accurate, digestible summary of the current state of knowledge on the topic - a "sound bite", if you like - in addition to detail should they choose to examine it. I think the article does an excellent job with detail, but falls down on its obligation to clearly summarize that detail and clearly describe current expert opinion. My addition was an attempt to remedy that perceived shortcoming, though as you note I was probably unfair, or at least unconstructive, in the talk page post.

It bothers me when articles create the appearance of an active medical debate where none really exists, and I find this to be a very common phenomenon on Misplaced Pages. I've tried to address that issue on that article for almost 2 years now, on and off, and I've watched other people try to address it, to no avail, so frustration is certainly a factor. When I was younger in wiki-years and more naive, I spent a lot of time discussing the data with RoyBoy (check the article talk page archives). I don't bother anymore, in general, because it never goes anywhere and because who cares how two pseudonymous Wikipedians parse the data when Reliable Secondary Sources have spoken? I just happened to be looking at the article again, and I was struck by the fact that it carefully catalogs each and every tree without stepping back to look at the forest. As a reader, I want to see a brief, clear summary of the salient points before I dive into the minutiae, and the article fails to properly encapsulate it.

Yes, I'm tired of hearing about how the NCI panel was obtuse, secretive, and biased, and about how the rat studies from 1980 need to be more and more prominent, and how Joel Brind should have the last word on everything the NCI, WHO, etc have said, and how ACOG/RCOG/ACS don't "count" because they just copied the NCI's statement, and how the WHO didn't really "reject" the hypothesis even though their fact sheet is entitled "Induced abortion does not increase breast cancer risk". I'm tired of arguing about those things after multiple iterations, and I probably can't be fair or unjaundiced about them anymore, so I should step back. Anyhow, I have no intention of edit-warring over it; you're a good editor and I trust your judgement, so I'd be curious to hear what, if anything, you would change. MastCell  09:08, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

I've proposed a slightly different version that captures the essence but avoids the bludgeoning. SDY (talk) 09:20, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

Orangemarlin 2.0 must need a slight upgrade

I haven't a clue what this is about. Do you? OrangeMarlin 14:35, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

I didn't read the above. Apparently, this is just one of those articles. OrangeMarlin 14:36, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

Eh, I think SDY does good work. To be honest, I'm not in a particularly constructive mood at the moment, as you might have guessed from my updated userpage, so he was right to call me on the tone of the talk page posts. I made my peace with the state of the article and moved on long ago, which was a conscious decision intended to improve my Misplaced Pages experience, and I need to stick to it. I took it off my watchlist long ago, but for some reason I surfed to it yesterday and got fired up about it again. MastCell  17:35, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

Sex drugs and rock and roll can help. OrangeMarlin 23:03, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

Help what? Help you get cirrhosis, tinnitus, amotivational syndrome, and chalmydia? See, I am in a bad mood. MastCell  23:07, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

Yup. You're beyond help. I believe a 72-hour hold is necessary. (Dialing 911). OrangeMarlin 00:34, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

Look you MastCell person, you don't understand what Misplaced Pages is all about. You think Misplaced Pages is supposed to be all scintific and you use all these elitist journals and stuff that people have to pay to subscribe. That's so totally unfair to people whose ideas get rejected in the journals or don't even get into the journals. NPOV means everybody's ideas are equal. And the experts always get it wrong too -- all the exprots though the earth was flat so the they burned Galllilleio at the stake. Short Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 22:17, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

Ray, you are missed. MastCell  21:28, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

I might drop by to josh around from time to time. But on my list of Fun And Rewarding Things To Do, "resume editing Misplaced Pages" is about six notches below "gouge out my pancreas with a screwdriver." Oh, and I swear to hell that I wrote the above before I saw that fellow's remark about burning Galileo at the stake. It's too hard to come up with absurd pseudo-bulldada rantings for the sake of humor when all possible ridiculosity already been offered with a straight face. Short Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 02:50, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

You know, my personal hero Tom Lehrer once remarked on the difficulty of effectively satirizing a world which had awarded Henry Kissinger the Nobel Peace Prize. Analagous difficulties abound here. MastCell  03:01, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

By the way, have you considered auctioning off your admin bit on eBay? Someone should be getting some use out of it. MastCell  18:44, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

I'll trade him my N ray generator for it. Antelan 21:17, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

Oh wouldn't that be fun?  :) Maybe that's what Mr. Clown did!!! :) OrangeMarlin 18:10, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

Input requested

I'd love for your feedback at Template:Pseudoscience. I created it recently. It's my first foray into Navbox template-land, so I'd appreciate any guidance or ideas you may have. Thanks! -- Levine2112 22:30, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

Iba Mar Diop and the sock drawer

Thanks for tossing up that checkuser :) Unfortunately, doesn't sound like the guy is willing to give it a break. Shell 19:12, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

When you get a chance...

I think some editors are having problems with User:WorkerBee74 on the Obama pages again. You may recall that at the original Obama discussion, I'd proposed WorkerBee74 be banned for a period of time - he did end up getting blocked, but apparently has continued misbehaving since. I'd suggested they try RFC on user conduct but the filing party has some reservations with that. If you have a chance, please do look at the ANI. Cheers - Ncmvocalist (talk) 17:13, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

Argh. I saw it, but I was hoping some other admins would step up and get involved. Dealing with those accounts on the Obama page is a mud pit - it ends up sucking up all my on-wiki time, and I get angry emails from all sides explaining point-by-point what a biased disgrace I am. Normally I'm up for that sort of thing, but I'm a bit tired of Misplaced Pages silliness at the moment and trying to refocus on articles where I'm interested and can see real improvement happening. But I'll keep an eye out. MastCell  17:16, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

I myself was put off after the first time of going through it and I think most of the admins and other editors are sick of it. I was going to suggest to Orderinchaos to make another block, but I don't want to ask any admin to do that without looking at it thoroughly myself. Sigh, what to do. Logging off, will try to look at it later if nothing's done by anyone still. Cheers - Ncmvocalist (talk) 17:38, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

Ideally, a handful of uninvolved admins could oversee the article for awhile, to provide sanity checks from others who are familiar with the ins and outs and who don't need two pages of diffs to evaluate each new complaint. This would also diffuse the Two Minutes' Hate that settles on individual admins when they take action there. Of course, Wikipedians have a term for a handful of admins who collaborate to rein in abusive behavior and improve an article in the face of tendentiousness: it's called a cabal. MastCell  17:48, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

Heh, I've noticed the cabal label has been popular in the last few months, though I haven't heard it shouted as much very recently. Anyway, I've proposed an official sort of article probation in the meantime - I think it'd save a lot of troubles, and would take care of any user who wants to play up there. Please do leave a note there if you support or oppose the terms proposed there. Cheers - :) Ncmvocalist (talk) 17:18, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

Regarding that overlong ANI thread

Specifically this, would you mind telling me where I started foaming at the mouth without realizing it? ;) I just wish to avoid similar mishaps in the future. I'm sure you understand.--Ramdrake (talk) 19:05, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

I wouldn't say you're foaming at the mouth. I think that you guys are justifiably frustrated at the situation. But for whatever reason, the noticeboard threads aren't effectively making your point. I see it, because I've looked at those pages, and Moreschi sees it, because he has an especially sharp nose for tendentious agenda accounts. But the fact is that such accounts can persist nearly indefinitely if they are able to master superficial politeness and avoid doing anything disruptive enough to be captured in a single diff or two (look at how long Jagz lasted). In such a situation, you guys need to be especially careful, because Misplaced Pages has a knee-jerk reaction to anything that looks like "ganging up", and a nearly inexhaustible sympathy for any underdog in a fight, no matter how well-deserved that underdog status may be. It doesn't matter that you're right, or that your edits move the article in a more positive direction, or that Zero g is a single-purpose purveyor of a rather unpalatable agenda, if it looks like you're all ganging up on him.

But what I particular referred to was bringing Elonka and Shell into it. Elonka is much more sympathetic to those accounts (Jagz and Zero g) than I would be. But attacking her on that basis does no good, and criticizing Shell doesn't either (I know you personally didn't do so; it's more a comment to the group). Shell is a sensible admin, and if she's not seeing your point, then the presentation needs work, because I know the point is valid. I hope that's useful. MastCell  21:44, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

Yes, it was quite useful. Thank you for the honest feedback. :) --Ramdrake (talk) 15:26, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

Please note:

A public apology for my part in this mess. (had to get teh IP unblock doen before i could post) ThuranX (talk) 00:29, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for striking. Not a big deal as far as I'm concerned; these sorts of misunderstandings come with the territory of online interaction. No hard feelings, I hope. MastCell  03:14, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

AE

I think it'd be okay to close the Neptun88 thread at AE now. — Rlevse • Talk • 20:19, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

Done. Thanks for your input. MastCell  18:24, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

Email

Well, Mastcell, you are either directly ignoring me (and are a bit rude for it), or you changed your email address. If I could be so bold to ask which it is? Thanks. The Evil Spartan (talk) 22:51, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

The latter - I changed the email address associated with this account a little while ago, so if you're responding to older emails they've likely gone off into the ether. Would you mind resending your email using the "Email this user" link? Sorry about that. MastCell  23:35, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

That would actually be difficult; however, I will make an attempt, though it may involve some copy/paste. The Evil Spartan (talk) 23:39, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

I apologize - I've tried to look at the old email account, but I'm not seeing anything recent from you there. I'll keep looking and let you know if I turn anything up. Sorry for the inconvenience. MastCell  23:40, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

WB74 AN/I

Is there some way we can put this issue finally to rest? The AN/I report on WorkerBee74 is quickly digressing into a small fight between editors. Is there some way that this can be finally settled? Brothejr (talk) 00:40, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

I would suggest that whichever side stops responding to the other first will have "won". I made my opinion clear. I've already been on the sharp end of enforcing a few sanctions at Talk:Barack Obama, and would prefer to have a sanity check and some backup from other uninvolved admins before stepping in again. The problem is that when the thread degenerates into bickering between involved parties, it drives away uninvolved input. I'll keep an eye on it. MastCell  16:55, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

moss-covered rolling balls of phlegm

Hi, saw this post. You mention " dealing with quite a few intractable issues; maybe this is partially their "fault" for accepting cases of limitlessly unmanageable scope (like this one)...". That seems true— but then what should be done with such moss-covered rolling balls of phlegm? Thanks Ling.Nut 14:32, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

That's easy - break them into bite-sized nuggets of phlegm and deal with them one by one, systematically. You can't have a case which lumps together every grievance that any politically active editor has had over the past 3 years and then complain when it becomes unmanageable. There is enough substance for a case involving SlimVirgin alone to go foward. Some might say there's enough for a separate case involving JzG, though I don't agree. Finally, there's probably enough for a case involving FeloniousMonk. Any one of those would be challenging but surmountable for ArbCom. But combine them all, then throw in problems that people have with Viridae, Cla68, and Misplaced Pages Review, and the result is entirely predictable. MastCell  16:51, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

Why do you consider that there is a case for SV and FM, while not one for Viridae, Cla68 and the rest of the anti-SV/FM/Guy alliance? I'm not sure you can make a pronouncement on one group without making a similar damning one about the other. I've stepped out of the fray because it was getting nasty, but it is my opinion that this RfA is going to be like nuclear war--both sides are going to be hurt.OrangeMarlin 18:02, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

I didn't comment on the Cla68/Viridae/WR aspect; I have an opinion, but I think that people are overly ready to offer their opinions there, to the point that they just become noise. The cases involving SV and FM are based largely on use of administrative tools, which is a bread-and-butter issue that ArbCom can tackle effectively. I'm not commenting on whether I personally think the case against them is persuasive or not - again, one more opinion isn't going to help resolve it - but I can at least see a case on those grounds being resolved one way or the other. MastCell  18:32, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

Additionally, I'm finding it increasingly hard to care about who said what to whom about Tony Sidaway, or Giano, or whatever. The solution to drama is to ignore it, and I'm trying to more actively set an example there. It's actually really easy to lose sight of why I bothered to register an account here in the first place. It wasn't to block Giovanni33 socks, or try to get people to play nice on Talk:Barack Obama, or to mete out Great Justice to evildoers (however one defines the term on-wiki). But that's all I seem to get around to doing these days. I wish I felt like we were developing and promoting a new group of admins skilled in handling these sorts of issues so that us old burnt-out cynical ones could go away. We're not. But even so, I started contributing here because I saw it as a way to improve the quality of widely available medical and health-related information, and there's still a ton of work to do there. My Mid-Year's Resolution is to go back to doing it like I did before I was awarded these extra buttons. MastCell  18:39, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

I'm with you on the drama front. Walking away from it has made me a happier fish. Speaking of fish, I'm reading a book on parasitology, New Guinea Tapeworms and Jewish Grandmothers: Tales of Parasites and People by Robert Desowitz. Best investment ever, since I figure that I spend about $2000 a year on sushi, so I'm saving about $100,000 present dollars for the rest of my life. Never touching raw fish again. (Note how I changed the topic to something completely gross.) OrangeMarlin 03:33, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

(undent)

• if you persuade me not to eat sushi, you'll be taking away one of the two non-fattening joys in my life (the other being Misplaced Pages).
• Drama doesn't go away if you ignore it. Sorry. Wish that myth were true. But some people (many of whom figure prominently in current ArbCom deliberations) are emotionally/constitutionally unable to stop playing politics and spreading their bile across as many fora as possible. Talk about parasites...  :-) Ling.Nut 03:50, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

It doesn't really matter to me if the drama goes away or not. I can't control that. I can't force people to ignore silly junior-high-level interpersonal disputes. I can't force them to be the bigger person even if they're "right". I can't force them to realize that this isn't Dynasty, nor a Manichean struggle of Good vs. Evil. I'm a pragmatist. All I can do is choose where I focus my effort.

Besides which, people crave attention. If they get attention for making good edits, adding solid content and removing crap, then they'll do more of it. If they get attention for acting like petulant 12-year-olds scheming to humiliate other petulant 12-year-olds, then they'll do more of that. That's not a myth; it's reality.

Incidentally, I've always regarded sushi as a mechanism of natural selection. People have recognized the benefits of heating food since the Stone Age. Sushi assumes that not only are you willing to disregard tens of thousands of years of human experience, but that you'll pay extra to do so. A Darwinist and evil-utionist like Orangemarlin must be able to appreciate that angle, right? Or else I'll have to revoke your membership in the ID cabal. MastCell  05:31, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

If you run for ArbCom again, then you make it your life's work to chase down folks who have a dangerous combination of a) tragically arrested emotional development, and b) considerable pull/influence over the processes of the 'pedia. Is that not what you want to do? Ling.Nut 05:46, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

Unfortunately, quite like the RfA process, ArbCom voting is set up to allow milquetoast types. MastCell stands up for science too much, so the anti-science crowd is going to do whatever they can to stop him, even if he is a nice guy that doesn't like sushi. Of course, the "pro-science" group won't vote for those that believe in magical processes for the natural world. So, what happens is that the least common denominator shows up. So, we get average to below average individuals like User:FT2 on ArbCom, and the jpgordon's and FloNight's become the last of old guard, who are passionate, intelligent, and stand up to the BS. Even now, RfA's are just filled with average to below average individuals, although every once in a while, a Risker or Gwen Gale sneak through, mostly because they hold their POV close to their vest. I wonder if Jimbo, whom I respect because he has a vision for this project, sees what's happening to his baby. Well, I might just go back to eating sushi. OrangeMarlin 09:06, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

(undent) All depends. At this moment I am basically asking someone (via email) to run for ArbCom when I absolutely know for a fact that his position on the Darwin/Genesis spectrum is the polar opposite of mine. I do so because I trust him to care more about the 'pedia than his POV. But I doubt doubt doubt he'll run. Pisses me off :-P Ling.Nut 09:17, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

I'm not interested in running for ArbCom again.

My problem with the new ArbCom members is that they're not active. The "older" Arbs are justifiably burnt out, and the new ones, who don't have that excuse, have mostly failed to step up. Newyorkbrad's departure was a huge blow to ArbCom's credibility and stability. There's a vacuum, and I'd have hoped that one or more of the newer Arbs would step up. Kirill does a fine job, but the most dynamic of the new group seems to be FT2. And that's a bit disconcerting, because not to kick the poor guy while he's down, but I no longer have much confidence in his judgement.

But I have to give credit where it's due, even in the current pile-on-to-ArbCom climate. When I actually had a situation that required their intervention, they took the case, handled it expeditiously, saw through the reams of attendant BS, and did what needed to be done. And that included Arbs with whom I've publicly differed in the past, like Charles Matthews and UninvitedCompany. (See Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Strider12). I think they can still handle those kinds of cases well - but people are asking them to do the impossible, and they're unwise enough to agree to try. MastCell  16:24, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

Can i ask you to take a look...

At Talk:Solar cycle for a third opinion with medical background? The synthesis is obvious - but i'm really out of my league when assessing the reliability of medical references... --Kim D. Petersen (talk) 01:49, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

Argh... Medical Hypotheses again. That journal is probably the most heavily cited on Misplaced Pages, despite its complete absence of scientific credibility. In my more cynical moments, I've considered comparing the number of Misplaced Pages's citations to Med. Hypoth. to our citations of Science, Nature, or the New England Journal of Medicine. I'm truly frightened of what I might find. Anyhow, I've left my 2 cents on the talk page. It's a WP:WEIGHT and WP:FRINGE issue. MastCell  03:21, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for the input. I can't see why Med Hypoth can be used seriously, the guidelines and description of it specifically points out that its an "alternative" journal. --Kim D. Petersen (talk) 09:13, 24 July 2008 (UTC) quite frankly i found it refreshingly honest that the journal is so upfront ;) --Kim D. Petersen (talk) 09:57, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, both Medical Hypotheses and another perennial favorite Misplaced Pages citation source, the Journal of Scientific Exploration, make it crystal clear upfront that they are not "mainstream" science but are dedicated to fringe ideas. They're quite honest. That honesty from the journals, of course, doesn't stop people from attempting to misuse them here. MastCell  16:05, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

Hey, there are a few non-Medical Hypoth articles, as I noted in the response above yours. The editor made a list of non-Medical Hypotheses, rather indiscriminately (including an 1934 article from the Quarterly Journal of Economics). I told him to be selective, but he didn't seem to appreciate my advice. Would you mind glancing at them? One of them is entitled Influenza pandemics and sunspots — Easing the controversy (1994). No abstract. That suggests there is a bit of contentious attention on this in the science. The journal (homepage) appears somewhat notable. Another full-text is from the Actas Espanolas Psiquiatria. Another. If you'd prefer not to spend the time, I suppose we can forget about it, although Kim and Sesqu's responses to the editor are unsatisfactory. Kim says synth, but these two articles are clearly about health, mood, and solar cycles. II | (t - c) 16:33, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

I agree that it's not really a WP:SYN matter - there are sources that have explicitly drawn a connection between the solar cycle and human health. To me, it's a straightforward issue of WP:WEIGHT and WP:FRINGE. These are, quite simply, not mainstream claims. A handful of iffy sources can be found, but there has been no significant "mainstream" attention to the subject. That doesn't mean it's "wrong", but it does mean that Misplaced Pages should not go out of its way to highlight it. Honestly, I can see a million things we can spend our time on that will improve the encyclopedia more than inserting a poorly referenced section describing fringe claims about the solar cycle and health, but that's me. MastCell  16:40, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

Understandable. I don't particularly care on this issue. II | (t - c) 16:49, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

Giovanni again

60.52.243.34 (talk · contribs) and MonikaShepard (talk · contribs) both. Could you please block and keep an eye on these articles for more socking? Thanks. The Evil Spartan (talk) 06:42, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

IP's an anonymous service geolocating to Malaysia, which I've hardblocked. The account appears to have been created specifically to participate in G33's edit-warring, so I've blocked it as well. I'll watchlist the pages; if anonymous IP socks are an ongoing issue, they can be temporarily semiprotected. MastCell  16:18, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

question

Hi MastCell - could you clear something up for me - I thought Kossack4Truth was topic banned from the Obama area - am I wrong?--Cailil 14:43, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

Sigh. I will clarify this. MastCell  16:50, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for clearing that up MastCell --Cailil 17:05, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

Re: RfA thanks

Hey MastCell,

thanks for those kind words! As a sidenote, I hope you'll join us at WP:MEDMAT at some point  ?

cheers, --Steven Fruitsmaak (Reply) 15:31, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

Inquiry (Sockpuppetry Problem)

In the past I have come to you with a problem pertaining to a sockpuppeteer under the dynamic IP User:63.3.1.1. This person consistently makes numerous edits that either violate the NPOV or fall under the category of unconstructive vandalism. This person has been warned and notified on several occasions, and ceased once a block was incurred. Once the blocks ended, this user flared up again using the aforementioned IP#'s. Now it seems he is using the same batch of numbers along with another list of Dynamic IP numbers. Click here for the list including the new IP#'s starting under the number 7. If you look at each of the numbers, you will see the pattern of editing from this user. I have looked up all of these IP#'s and they all come from one source. Is there something that you can do about this? I've tried addressing this with Good Faith, and so have many others. I've also added the suspected sockpuppet tags to the talk pages of this sockpuppeteer. I'm not trying to edit war with this person, in fact I would like to be able to settle this maturely. I really hope that you can help me to do exactly that. Thank you and have a lovely week... --Candy156sweet (talk) 21:36, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

K4T thread

Would you mind archiving the thread to Misplaced Pages:Administrators'_noticeboard/IncidentArchive455? ThuranX has been nothing but a disruptive influence there so far, showing absolutely no sign of contributing positively there, and although Risker had reverted my closing of the thread, I don't think it'll go anywhere otherwise. I think there's consensus to close. Ncmvocalist (talk) 17:40, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

I'm not a big fan of archiving threads - it gets confusing when I suddenly can't find them on WP:AN/I and have to search the archives. At most, I prefer to throw {{discussion top}} and {{discussion bottom}} templates around discussions which I have not been involved in if they show signs of rapid deterioration. I do agree that the tone and utility of the thread are declining - I've left a note urging everyone to take a step back and do something else for awhile. I consider that there was consensus for the topic ban, and intend to enforce it. MastCell  18:01, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

Okay. Yes, you should (re: topic ban) - it was in force on 26 July 2008 when there was consensus for it. One thing worth considering is making a motion-request for discretionary sanctions to be enacted in the area by the Committee, but I don't know to what extent it'll help the overall situation. Ncmvocalist (talk) 18:48, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

Re IP

Moved from FayssalF's talk page Hi - I understand from your comment here that you've linked 74.94.99.17 (talk) with a named account and are concerned about a violation of WP:SOCK. Since this IP has been active in the disputes surrounding the Obama pages (largely in a flame-fanning and commenting-at-AN/I manner), I just wanted to ask if you could follow up to ensure this is resolved appropriately (I assume you do not want to disclose the named account due to privacy issues at this time). There are already plenty of socks, suspicious IP's, and SPA's contributing to the dispute. Thanks for looking into it. MastCell  18:25, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

You got it right MastCell. And that has been my clear message, not only to the particular IP and its owner but to all users using IPs on that topic (in theory I'd mean everywhere). And yes, I'll be keeping an eye. -- FayssalF - 19:07, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

Sounds good. Thanks for the follow-up. MastCell  19:08, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

John Edwards prot

Does "This page is currently protected from editing until July 30, 2008" include the 30th? Or does protection end tonight? I would argue that we are in the middle of working on consensus. It is possible that we may come to consensus in the next day or two (hard to tell) but I would prefer that an admins add any consensus text and keep it protected so that any further desire to change can be left for the talk page. Thoughts? ∴ Therefore | cogito·sum 17:52, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

The protection expires at 17:16 UTC tomorrow, or just about 24 hours from now. I've strongly considered extending the protection, particularly if there is progress toward consensus, as changes can be implemented by using the {{editprotected}} tag. At this point I will probably let the protection expire and then keep a close eye on the article. If there continues to be edit-warring, lack of consensus, BLP issues, etc, then I would favor re-protecting it and again using the talk page and {{editprotected}} as necessary. I've asked for outside eyes and administrative sanity checks at WP:AN, because I think this is a tricky issue and the more eyes on it, the better. MastCell  17:57, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

I think we have a fairly clear consensus on the text now. Can I prevail upon you, Mast, to add it into the article? Not sure there is much to be gained by further delay. Ronnotel (talk) 02:36, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

Sorry for the delay. I think it would be better to use the {{editprotected}} template and have another admin, besides me, review the edit for consensus etc. Mostly, I don't want to be the protecting admin and the arbiter of consensus at the same time - I think it will be good to get more admins directly involved. I guess at this point the protection will expire soon anyway, so it will become apparent whether there's consensus or not. MastCell  16:00, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

No problem. Sandstein took matters into his own hands last night and implemented the change. Thanks anyway. Ronnotel (talk) 16:06, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

Kossack4Truth

Sorry to come to your talk page but I thought this would be the route of least disruption. Given that you pronounced the topic ban of User:Kossack4Truth on Obama-related articles, does that ban extend (and if not, should it extend) to advocating content and/or behavioral positions on AN/I discussions (and other meta discussions) about those articles, advocating on other people's talk pages, etc? See the latest posts My request that the editor hold off pending a clarification did not slow him down and only generated a personal attack, which I asked as politely as I could for him to revert. My hands are tied at this point - it looks like anything I do at this point will only inflame him, which in turn inflames other editors. Thanks, - Wikidemo (talk) 00:39, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

I also wanted to chime in here in that the lower portion of K4T's edit seems as if he is trying to renew his Obama/Ayers arguments on the AN/I page where he feels that he can discuss the controversy without actually discussing it on the Barack Obama page. It would also be my personal opinion and speculation that in the near future as the election grows closer he will try other means to participate in the Obama page whether by proxies, sock puppets, meat puppets, etc. I have a feeling that this turn of events with his involvement in the AN/I report is only the tip of the iceberg. Brothejr (talk) 01:36, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

. MastCell  03:39, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

I will point out that during the topic ban, I have never, ever mentioned or even made an oblique reference to the topic from which I have been banned until now. I have discussed William Ayers, the misconduct of LotLE, and the edits of Noroton and Curious Bystander regarding Ayers. Furthermore, your note on my User Talk page vastly expands the topic for which you gained community support, from a single person to any topic associated with that person. Since that person is a United States senator and presidential candidate, you are in effect unilaterally expanding what the community intended as a topic ban about one person, to a topic ban about Illinois, Chicago and the entire United States Congress, since the city, the state and all members of Congress are topics related to that person.

Also, some of the comments at ANI regarding ratification of your topic ban suggested a topic ban of three months, or four months; and even you framed it in terms of 4-6 months. Why don't you just make it 100 years, while you're unilaterally expanding what the community authorized you to do?

Three specific illustrations of the completely fascist expansion of power you have just unilaterally grabbed, MastCell: If I work on Mauna Loa, an article about a volcano in the state where the topic from which I'm banned was born, will you block me? If I work on Frank Lloyd Wright, a biography about a famous architect from Oak Park, Illinois (a suburb of Chicago), will you block me? And if I'm editing the article about Kyrgyzstan, a country where the topic I've been banned from has never set foot or even mentioned (to the best of my knowledge), if LotLE, Wikidemo and Scjessey show up there and start edit warring with me and posting personal attacks on the article Talk page, and if I complain about it at ANI and AN3, will you block me?

It appears that the answer to all three questions is, "Hell yeah."

Kindly retract that vast expansion of the topic ban, or go back to ANI and obtain community support for that vast expansion of the topic ban. Also, if you're going to make it longer than three months or until Election Day, kindly get community support for that specific length of time. Also, I'd like to have some clarification on whether I will be impaled by one of your lightning bolts, as CB puts it, if after three months of exemplary conduct on other articles I go to ANI and seek to have the topic ban reduced to time served. Thank you. Kossack4Truth (talk) 07:38, 31 July 2008 (UTC)