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AdultSwim is asking for a review of his block

AdultSwim, recently revealed and blocked as a sockpuppet of Lemmey / Mitrebox has asked for a review of his block: User talk:AdultSwim#Blocked. I would've suggested he do so from the original account, but it seems to have been given the {{pp-usertalk}} treatment. Thoughts? –xeno (talk) 02:27, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

• Banned Constant evasive socking, keep him blocked and block on sight. MBisanz 02:35, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

Socking, yes. But to be fair, have a read over Ned Scott's summary of the situation on the user's talk page. I wouldn't disagree with it. Mitrebox/Lemmey/AdultSwim has never done anything to attempt to harm the encycolopedia. The aim has always seemed to be in good faith, but not within our procedural bounds. The user has the potential for a future of valuable contributions. Needs a nice tutor. Keegan 05:36, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

• Unblock I agree with Ned Scott. What's keeping AdultSwim away is basically policy-wonkery. He's a clear positive for the encyclopedia, IMO. What's keeping him out is a technicality. Unblock provided he promises not to sock anymore or to use unapproved bots. Enigma 05:38, 1 August 2008 (UTC)
• A second account I can understand. Perhaps even a third. But five or six accounts indicates a real issue. I'd be incredibly hesitant to unblock. --MZMcBride (talk) 06:17, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

• That does have me confused as well. Some of them seem just.. odd. Like LemmonBoy, who's obvious connection wouldn't even make the account useful for sockpuppeting or block evasion. Some of the others were only used for a single day and thrown away. Still, I don't see any attempt to have one sock support another in discussion, nor do I see any real disruption by most of those throw-away's. -- Ned Scott 07:09, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

• In regards to User talk:Mitrebox being protected, he was clearly told that he needed to contact ArbCom or the blocking administrator via email and had already had a block declined on his talk page. He chose not to, and instead went ahead and created another account to circumvent his block, and then continued to do so even after being caught a third time. Does not seem like the type of user I want editing... Tiptoety 06:27, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

• I'm not sure if he's the kind of editor we can even stop editing. Wouldn't it be better to at least try to work these issues out, rather than endless sock hunts? He keeps coming back because he honestly believes he's doing something good here, and desires to keep doing that. I understand some socks coming into edit war over a POV, but never to come in and fix references.. -- Ned Scott 07:12, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

• So by all means just let him stay unblocked? If you can not beat them, then let them edit? I think not, Tiptoety 07:21, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

• That's not what I'm saying. I'm saying we have someone who passionately wants to contribute and is improving the wiki. Where is the logic in fighting that? Their "crime" was running an unapproved bot, an issue long since resolved. Threads like these are likely the reason he didn't bother with an unblock request for the original account. People get so hung up on what you've once done that they just close their mind to the possibility that someone might be good for this project. -- Ned Scott 07:30, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

• In other words, from a technical standpoint, we can stop them, even if it means reverting after we catch a new sock. However, most people aren't going to want to revert the changes he makes, and it would be really counter-productive. We would be reverting good edits simply because he was once banned for something that is no longer an issue. We can help the situation with things other than blocks. We've not big stupid cavemen who can only hit things with their clubs. -- Ned Scott 07:39, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

• Leave blocked The value of anyone who abuses sock puppets is questionable. Jtrainor (talk) 06:28, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

• That's an incredibly shallow view of the situation. This editor has been proven to be very valuable to the project, and has never once tried to hurt it. -- Ned Scott 07:06, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

• Leave blocked Simply because the accounts we know of haven't harmed the encyclopedia, doesn't mean that he hasn't done so. We don't if it's a good hands/bad hands scenario here. I just don't trust serial sockpuppeters. He was told what to do. He should be able to show he wants to be here enough that he would actually do what people asked him to do. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 07:02, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

• Wait, are you even paying attention? There's no good hand/bad hand happening here at all. He's already stop using an unapproved bot, so there's no reason his original account should even be blocked at this point, other than the evasion of that original block. -- Ned Scott 07:05, 1 August 2008 (UTC)
• A checkuser was run, showed his accounts, and none of them were abusive, IIRC. This is a good contributor. No "bad hand" exists. I really don't understand how you could say this. "We don't know if it's a good hands/bad hands..."? Actually, we know more about him than others because a checkuser was run. Your argument of we don't know could apply to everyone, including you or me. Enigma 16:18, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

• Leave blocked. I want to see him not sockpuppet for three months before I support an unblock. Nwwaew (Talk Page) (Contribs) (E-mail me) 07:10, 1 August 2008 (UTC)
• Unblock and find a mentor. Viridae 07:41, 1 August 2008 (UTC)
• (EC)Even though I'm a Pro-Block Admin™, I support an unblock in this particular case. Yes, he socked, but was it malicious? Did he harm the encyclopedia? Did he attack someone? Three NO's, right? Then probably we shouldn't consider the block on his first account as permission to shoot on sight, and give him a benefit of doubt? I support unblocking AS, or probably his Lemmey account and his bot that was certainly useful. If there are still some problems with AS's behaviour, assinging him a mentor would be really more constructive than ritual "bad, bad sock" banhammering to death. MaxSem 07:46, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

I am not an admin, but I concur heavily with MaxSem said above...Someone who have contributed for good of Wikipeida and hitherto done/does no harm, should not be demoralized by a indefinite block...Just my 2 cents -- Tinu Cherian - 11:53, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

• Unblock, it seems as though the user is essentially constructive and a net positive. Prohibit any further use of sockpuppets by him. Everyking (talk) 08:13, 1 August 2008 (UTC)
• Conditional unblock, the user needs to get a mentor and restrict himself to two accounts (one that doesn't do anything automatic, one that does (semi-)automated things with community approval). We do have stricter norms for bots than for non-automatic contributions (and for good reason), and the user has to accept that or we'll have to do without him. Kusma (talk) 08:22, 1 August 2008 (UTC)
• Comment just to say that I have noticed this user doing an extraordinary amount of helpful work with referencing on a wide range of articles lately. Skomorokh 11:36, 1 August 2008 (UTC)
• Unblock. If its true he is a net positive, I see no reason we cannot allow him to edit. He needs guidance apparently, like others are pointing out. If this cannot be accomplished, then reblock. Synergy 11:54, 1 August 2008 (UTC)
• Leave blocked He has clearly demonstrated recently that he was still incapable of understanding the etiquette issue of editing other people's sandboxes, issues that contributed to his original block in February. Until he can demonstrate he understanbds why he was blocked, there is no point in leaving him unblocked. Circeus (talk) 13:16, 1 August 2008 (UTC)
  • Indeed that is only an etiquette issue, not a violation of any policy or guideline. In fact with every edit, users are given a no-nonsense warning to the opposite effect: "If you don't want your writing to be edited mercilessly or redistributed for profit by others, do not submit it." I'm not convinced this is actionable (though other behavior might be). — CharlotteWebb 15:55, 1 August 2008 (UTC)
• Per most of the above, I think, at this point an unblock would be a good idea, along with a mentor. SQL 13:17, 1 August 2008 (UTC)
  • Additionally, I would like to be sure that any future bots this user is to run seek explicit approval before they are run as a condition of unblock. I remember now, that this user, appeared to think there was nothing wrong with running an unapproved bot, in order to lock a page at a specific revision. Having dealt with this user in two out of three of his most recent socks, I don't think this is going to happen, however. SQL 14:17, 1 August 2008 (UTC)
• Conditional Unblock Synergy took the words out of my mouth. Per Synergy. Rgoodermote  14:30, 1 August 2008 (UTC)
• Based on previous interaction, I'll say I'm somewhat skeptical that this user is going to be open to mentoring; but due to the fact they are trying to be of use, I'd support one more shot, based on the conditions above by Kusma and SQL. --barneca (talk) 16:23, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

• I can almost guarantee that this user will not be open to mentoring, just look at the way he handled a request to have his username changed. He is not open to help, and more or less wants to do things his way or no way at all. Tiptoety 16:33, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

• Unblock I see no major reason to leave the account indefinitely blocked, and in addition, the user is not community banned (at least, there is no discussion of a banning that I am aware of). Good arguments have been provided to unblock, and I agree with them. Give the user guidance and another chance: I've only seen good things from the AdultSwim account, and I was surprised to see it blocked. Acalamari 17:28, 1 August 2008 (UTC)
• Might I just add that this user has adamantly stated and thinks that there is nothing wrong with running a unapproved bot, what makes everyone think he is going to change? Tiptoety 17:49, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

• And yet he's also stated that he's willing to follow our rules and improve how he handles these situations. Feeling that there is nothing wrong with the action isn't a blockable offense. -- Ned Scott 04:16, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

• Yes, but acting upon those feelings is. Tiptoety 04:31, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

• Which he has not done. The only thing even close would be the block of Samuel, where he explains that he thought it was approved because it was the same task and code that was approved before. (see User talk:Samuel Pepys#WTF Mate)-- Ned Scott 06:24, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

• Leave blocked. Unrepentant block-evading sockpuppeteer, come back when he has fixed those issues and shown a commitment to fix the other issues which led to the original block as well. Guy (Help!) 18:51, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

• A prime example of a drive-by admin who isn't paying attention to the discussion. He has already fixed the issues related to the original block. He has no other issues that would justify a block, and is only currently blocked because he didn't get his first account unblocked. Process wonkery caused by ignorant admins. Get off the damn war path, because you're not helping the wiki. -- Ned Scott 04:03, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

• I'm sorry, that last part was a bit over the top. -- Ned Scott 04:11, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

• Leave blocked. As someonewho tried to cleanup the trail of destruction User:Samuel Pepys (who, lest we forget, returned as a sockpuppet to operate the bot which had already been blocked)left behind, I have no sympathy at all for this "good faith user's" ability to change. – iridescent 21:13, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

• I've spot checked a bunch of Samuel's edits, and none of them so far have been bad. What edits are you referring to when you say "trail of destruction"? -- Ned Scott 04:27, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

• Ok, I seem to have found it. Seems he was editing user drafts, commenting out the ref tag to remove the page from the maintenance category Category:Pages with incorrect ref formatting. From the comments on the talk page it seems he was able to update the bot to exclude user pages, so I'm not sure what the issue is. The bot itself was very useful, and that same code will likely be run again by someone, if not Lemmey/AS. Again, the only reason for the block of the bot is because of the ban evasion of the original account, which is now a non-issue. -- Ned Scott 06:42, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

• Leave blocked - He may be constructive, but I don't think the benefits outweigh the risks. In addition to the original block for edit warring using a bot, LemmeyBOT was blocked twice for running unapproved tasks and AdultSwim was blocked for incivility, while I supported the unblock for that last block, his responses after being unblocked were less than encouraging. The fact that AdultSwim was created 2 years ago but only made a handful of edits before June is a bit worrying as well. Mr.Z-man 21:32, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

• Those are some very weak reasons to block someone indefinitely like this. If his bot was acting up, it gets the bot status removed. Problem solved. You just said yourself that there's no current reason to block AdultSwim for civility reasons. I've been blocked for civility-type reasons before, and I would hate to think you would endorse my banishment from the entire English Misplaced Pages for being human. -- Ned Scott 04:03, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

• Basically what I meant was, he does have positive contributions, but he can't seem to go very long without ending up in some degree of trouble. Incivility is one thing, but there's also the edit warring bot, the unapproved bots, the sock puppetry, the fact that this last account looks like a sleeper account. I don't think the positive contributions he makes are worth all the extra trouble. The AGF view says that he's just a good editor with a complete inability to follow rules for more than a month or 2, but after so many block-evading sockpuppets, I'm not really able to AGF anymore, it looks like he's just trying to see how much he can get away with. Mr.Z-man 13:31, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

• Except that the behavior you cite has been shown and proven to improve over time. The very first block was for an unapproved revert bot. The next time he ran a bot he waited to get approval from BAG, worked with them, and was highly praised for the bot's work. Same with the edit warring. Like AS has said on his talk page, each time he comes back he makes a greater effort to improve, or as he puts it, each new account evolves and improves (or something like that). The last time we had a thread about him it was over a situation that he had already resolved with the other user. He had gotten blocked with the mindset that he might have caused that user great distress, and yet that same user came here to support his unblocking. I don't think it's fair to use something like that against him. The only issue that is continuing without "improvement" is the new accounts, which he's only making so that he can continue his positive contributions. -- Ned Scott 06:20, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

• Comment I never saw any of the constructive contributions Lemmey is said to have made. I only saw the contributions to ANI and related noticeboards, which while short of being disruptive or incivil were certainly confrontational and impolite. So, I don't think this is a simple case of a good-user-who-fell-foul-of-bot-and-then-sock-policy, and if unblocked I hope that any mentor would be aware of such concerns. SHEFFIELDSTEEL 21:34, 1 August 2008 (UTC)
• Unblock I noticed that I've only been replying to comments, and haven't gotten to make my own shiny bold endorsement. Unblock per my statement on AS's talk page, and per my above comments. -- Ned Scott 04:04, 2 August 2008 (UTC)
• No unblock I might be able to forgive the other stuff, but not being a Checkuser-confirmed sock of a user who posted someone's personal information. Blueboy96 06:15, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

• A mistake they made over two years ago. Do you have any evidence of postings of personal information since then? Any at all? -- Ned Scott 06:20, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

I've asked User:East718, the original blocking admin, if he would be willing to review the first block. -- Ned Scott 06:34, 3 August 2008 (UTC)

• Support unblock. So he used multiple accounts. So what? Seems to be a net positive for the encyclopedia. Unblock and let him go on about his business here. —Scott5114↗ 10:24, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

Statement by AdultSwim

Found here: User talk:AdultSwim#Response. –xeno (talk) 21:04, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

We saw that same type of bullshit when Mitrebox got caught running a reversion bot. I see no indication he's changed, nor any indication of an apology for his actions, which he doesn't seem to even acknowledge were wrong. Nwwaew (Talk Page) (Contribs) (E-mail me) 22:16, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

Yep, this is far more than just a "Oh, I was blocked for using a unapproved bot, so whats the big deal if I sock?". Just look at this users history, he has had two years to improve his behavior and yet here we are again. Tiptoety 22:20, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

Nwwaew, how about the fact that he never used a reversion bot after that? The next bot he used got full approval by BAG, and has been praised by several good editors in standing. That's a pretty damn good improvement. Tiptoety, your statement is even more absurd. You say he's had two years to improve his behavior, except that this current block has nothing to do with behavior. This is entirely dependent on block evasion of a block that is no longer an issue. -- Ned Scott 03:55, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

That's because we had no idea he was a sock. And I'll bet that he's probably going to be socking in the future. I will not support an unblock until he apologizes for everything he's done, admits that it was wrong, and then can prove he hasn't socked for three months. Nwwaew (Talk Page) (Contribs) (E-mail me) 02:02, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

It is impossible for anyone to prove that they have not been operating sockpuppets. Can you prove that you have not been operating socks? If you can't maybe you should be blocked too. DuncanHill (talk) 20:28, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

Actually, I do operate a sockpuppet. Though, after looking over what I said, I agree- there's no way to completely confirm non-socking. Nwwaew (Talk Page) (Contribs) (E-mail me) 06:03, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

I'm not really sure what was going on with the multiple accounts that were editing at the same time, but I would doubt he would make another account if he didn't need to (as in, making one so he could keep editing). The ones that were editing at the same time never crossed paths, and some were one-time use accounts (like LemmonBoy, who's existence was to simply post code for the bot). He's not creating accounts to support himself in a discussion, or to do some kind of good hand/bad hand front. If he's unblocked, which wouldn't hurt the wiki or the community at all, then he wouldn't need to make more accounts. Problem solved. -- Ned Scott 06:14, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

• Asking people to prove they haven't done something is absurd, as I was saying above. Someone opposed unblocking because (paraphrase) "we don't know if there's a good hand/bad hand thing going on here." Well yeah, we don't. We also don't know if <insert random user here> is operating good hand/bad hand sockpuppetry. I view AS's sockpuppetry differently than I would someone who is operating multiple sockpuppets at the same time to try to sway consensus or disrupt in some other significant way. Anyway, east commented on his talk page. Enigma 06:30, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

Question

I got here late... Can someone explain to me just how he was "caught"? If there were no problems with him under the current account, why was anyone even looking? We tell people - even banned editors sometimes (though usually in those cases it's only brought up by their enemies in order to attempt to subvert an attempt to appeal the ban) that it's fine to come back and start editing again as long as they don't go back to the same bad behavior that got them blocked/banned. So what the hell? Maybe I'm just dense - I go to the talk page and see a sock template posted out of the blue with no evidence of any prior controversy. --Random832 (contribs) 20:21, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Requests for checkuser/Case/Lemmey. –xeno (talk) 23:19, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

I gave a shot at summarizing it on User talk:AdultSwim#Block summary, though I should point out that I'm supporting an unblock. Take it for what you will. -- Ned Scott 06:05, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

User:AAAAAGGGGGHHHHH!!!!!

User with constructive edits but a name that puts his user/talk pages in the title blacklist filter thingo. If admins can bypass that, anyone want to suggest a rename? —Giggy 13:03, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

"Perhaps "User:Screaming loudly" - though I don't think that was what you were asking for. Viridae 13:05, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

I've welcomed him on his talk page, are you able to edit it now and discuss the username issue with him? –xeno (talk) 13:06, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

I left a note explaining the situation but it may be a bit confusing for someone new. I know that if I had received that message when I was new I would understand none of it. James086 13:18, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

The user is probably going to need some help in figuring out how to change his name or some one may want to request a name change with the user's consent. Rgoodermote  15:05, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

By trial and error I determined that the repeated "!" (three or more) is the source of the problem. The infamous User:!! (if he were still editing ) would narrowly avoid being affected by it. "AAAAAGGGGGHHHHH" by itself does not trigger anything (though it would still be a less than desirable username). — CharlotteWebb 15:09, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

The user name is confusing (now how may 'Hs' should you type to write his name?) and should be changed. It is not conducive to accepting the user as a serious editor. Give him/her a couple of days to respond (if they don't resume editing sooner), then block as inapropriate user name and allow them to change it. -- Alexf 17:10, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

Well, to play devil's advocate, there's exactly 5 of each character... Maybe he's doing a kind of The Legendary Black Beast of Aaaaarrrrrrggghhh thing, but missed the R? –xeno (talk) 17:13, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

Xeno, don't be playing "devil's" ANYTHING in this joint--it'll get you marked as a dangerous influence.Gladys J Cortez 22:13, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

It's my understanding that even one ! in a name will interfere with templates and that 3 !!! gets hit by the name filters. — Rlevse • Talk • 22:39, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

If we're still playing the "suggest alternatives" game, then perhaps cropping the name to AGH! would be the course involving least change for this guy... However, it's probably best if we simply say "look, you need to change your name: it's not really appropriate", let him chose an alternative (perhaps with some examples and guidance from us), and point him towards changing username. Unless that has already been done? Anthøny 20:19, 3 August 2008 (UTC)

User:IncoherentScream and User:IncoherentScreaming are both available, apparently :-) SHEFFIELDSTEEL 18:15, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

Talkpage deletion question

Note: This is not an attempt to create drama. I would like to clarify something though. If a talk page for an article exists but only has a {{talkheader}} template with no other content, should it be deleted? I'm asking based on this and other related talkpage deletions. It just seems unnecessary to me. Nobody of Consequence (talk) 21:57, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

I don't see what the big problem is with leaving it undeleted. It gives instructions for whomever wants to post there. Unless the article is deleted (thereby making the talk page eligible for CSD - G8), I don't see the point in deleting a helpful template. Seems overcooked when there are so many other more relevant and serious "problems" on wiki. Am I missing something? I realize that talkpage was deleted, I'm failing to realize why. Keeper ǀ 76 22:05, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

Agreed. You could always find a WikiProject to put it in. PeterSymonds (talk) 22:08, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

Or you could stuff beans up your nose. I would rather see a red link than slapping myself every time I open a talk page which contains no actual talk. — CharlotteWebb 22:19, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

Whoever created a talk page containing only {{talkheader}} ought to be trout-slapped for violating both common sense and the instructions which say This template should be used only when needed. Do not add this template to every talk page. In particular, it should not be added to otherwise empty talk pages! — CharlotteWebb 22:19, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

Well, perhaps. But instead of instantly A3'ing, it would be more helpful to add the relevant WikiProjects. They don't take a few minutes to find. And if the talkheader itself is misplaced, remove it. PeterSymonds (talk) 22:30, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

I still don't get what is so bad about having a talk page that just contains a talkheader, regardless of what the instructions say (which I hadn't seen until now). I can't see what's so vexing about talkpages that don't contain talk yet. Seems like a kind of policy wonkery, IMO. And I think its a lot nicer than redlinks, personally. Nobody of Consequence (talk) 22:23, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

Some people get agitated when they see redlinks because it feels like something is missing. Some people get agitated when they see an empty talk page because it's taking up space. It's not process wonkery, but more like human nature. It's something we can't really deal with. —Kurykh 22:34, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

Practical matters are by definition anti-wonkery. If a talk page is completely blank I'd like to know before clicking on it. — CharlotteWebb 22:43, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

But it's not completely blank, there's a talkheader there. What if there were a couple Wikiproject tags there as well? Those aren't discussion, but I don't think someone would delete the talk page if it contained nothing but Wikiproject templates. Nobody of Consequence (talk) 22:46, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

Still useless. Some talk pages contain several banners instead of one, and may be less likely to be deleted, but that does not make them more useful. — CharlotteWebb 22:53, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

Talk pages aren't just for discussion. WikiProject templates categorise articles for individual projects. They serve multiple purposes. PeterSymonds (talk) 23:02, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

You are entitled to your opinion, but I would like to know whether it pertains to the {{talkheader}} template. — CharlotteWebb 23:05, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

No. My argument was that a talkheader could be replaced with WP templates, instead of a simple page deletion. PeterSymonds (talk) 23:07, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

This just creates more work. I pity the fool who spends an afternoon looking for the most applicable wiki-project tag to use in order to save an empty talk page with no salvageable value. — CharlotteWebb 23:58, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

(←) Well it's not that difficult. If it's a bio, tag with {{WPBiography}}. Most of the time it's blatantly obvious which tags to put on the article. For 90% of articles, it's no chore, but sure, there will be the odd exception. But my argument was in relation to strolling across talk pages. Instead of G6'ing, tag it; all biographies, for example, should use WPBiography even if there's no discussion on the page. This is especially important for BLPs. PeterSymonds (talk) 00:03, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

(e/c) I'd like to know too; the documentation says "see the talk page" for why adding this everywhere is wrong, and the talk page says "see the documentation". I could guess (Saving someone from wasting time clicking on a blue link, thinking there was discussion when there wasn't? Dragging down the server with lots of needless transclusion?), but would prefer someone who knows actually explain why it's not recommended, instead of just saying it. Quite possibly there's a good reason, but I'd like to hear it. --barneca (talk) 22:36, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

(e/c*2)Surely it is ok to have a talk page with just a banner - it provides guidance for new users on what's appropriate, how to sign etc. Seems a bit anal to be deleting pages like this, plus does it really come under G6? - Toon 22:37, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

That's what I think too. It seems helpful and informative for newbies at least. I've added them to a number of talk pages just because I thought they contain helpful instructions. Nobody of Consequence (talk) 22:44, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

If talkheader belonged on every talk page, it would be added to the interface. I remove it whenever I'm otherwise editing the talk page unless there's actual questionable discussion that it seems to be a response to. --NE2 22:41, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

Yes I believe the template was intended for talk pages which tend to receive comments from new users who don't understand the purpose of talk pages, generally articles about current events or very famous people or other web sites. However if we could find an appropriate interface page to contain this material (and then delete the bloody template) it would be more than acceptable as a compromise. — CharlotteWebb 22:49, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

MediaWiki:Talkpagetext appears when editing a talk page. Is that good enough? — CharlotteWebb 23:08, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

<--I just re-"bluelinked" this particular talkpage (which I'm well aware is one of thousands of redlinks, perhaps rightfully so). I readded the talkpageheader template, and two wikiprojects that seem appropriate. Please see Talk:Freebie marketing. Now that I've read this particular article, I find it to be rather AFD-able, but still, there is no valid reason (policy is descriptive, not prescriptive) to leave it a redlink if there are valid and active WikiProjects that may find interest in any particular article. Keeper ǀ 76 00:53, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

I wonder if you can help me -- How many angels can dance in a talk page with no header? Ed Fitzgerald (unfutz) 01:22, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

Merged from ANI

An admin has been deleting article talk pages. I can't see the sense in it? Don't we have enough server space at Misplaced Pages or something? I'm a little concerned because one page I had on watch had it's talk page deleted. So I didn't worry that much but added a cat to the page and then went to an associated page and added a cat also. Shortly after that article had its talk page deleted also. Gave me a bad feeling. So here I am. Articles are British Homing World and Royal Pigeon Racing Association. Also on my watch list with a deleted talk page Tendring Hundred Show. The admin doing the deleting is User:MZMcBride. So I'll see people here have to say about this? Oh, and I'm not sure because I cant access the deleted pages, but I was thinking one of the deleted talk pages was in a wikiproject? If not it should have been.--Sting Buzz Me... 02:01, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

According to the Talk page of the deleting admin, he's deleting Talk pages that have Template:Talkheader as their only content, since the instructions for that template indicate it should only be used on Talk pages that have other content anyway. It seems kind of an odd choice of endeavor to me, but I can't argue with his logic. Propaniac (talk) 02:08, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

Deleting empty talk pages is disruptive. It's confusing and wastes the time of editors who have the article watchlisted as they try to chase down what happened and why. Just a glance at the contents of the deleting admin's talk page shows what a timewaster this practice is for all involved, including the deleter. It's a net loss to the project. Please end this practice. --CliffC (talk) 03:16, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

I echo Cliff's concerns. Could the deleting admins at least state explicitly in the edit summary (or deletion log, whatever) the precise rationale for the deletion? Skomorokh 14:32, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

I agree, deleting the page is fine, but a clear explanation of why the page has been deleted would save a lot of time and also be much more considerate on the part of the deleting admin. Tom H (talk) 17:39, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

Deleting empty talk pages is useful, as it gives pages with no WikiProject templates and no discussion a redlinked talk page. WE use {{Talkheader}} only where necessary (else we'd just use a MediaWiki message for this anyway). Kusma (talk) 15:13, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

Redlinked talk is a barrier to new users

Has anyone considered the fact that new users might be intimidated by redlinked Talk pages? It leads them to a page telling them they're creating a new page, with no instructions whatsoever for how the Talk page should be used or formatted. At least with a talkheader template, we've got a page the user can see and which has links to instructions on what to do. It's much more encouraging to see a page welcoming comments than a blank edit window telling you to dive right into the deep end. — The Hand That Feeds You: 12:56, 3 August 2008 (UTC)

As has been said multiple times above, if {{talkheader}} is supposed to go on every talk page, it can be worked into the interface somewhere. Otherwise, if you're going to add it, at least add a WikiProject tag so he page will be useful. Mr.Z-man 15:08, 3 August 2008 (UTC)

Has anyone actually submitted a feature request to the developers? And I dispute that the page isn't "useful" if it only has the header. — The Hand That Feeds You: 17:12, 3 August 2008 (UTC)

How does one do this anyway? I think that talkpages should all come with a default header, as it gives everyone a concise summary of what they are for. I have in the (fairly recent) past created some of these otherwise blank talk pages, and I took them directly from the source of other (probably more populated) talk pages, because I saw it and thought it was a really neat summary and useful to your average Joe Bloggs who might be editing for the first time. At that point I was not aware that template guidance notes even existed.
I was then very concerned to see several talkpages from articles I'd either started or edited flagged up as deleted on my watchlist, with just a strange code as an explanation. I've wasted about an hour trying to find out why that is the case and whether it will remain so. Quite frankly I think the argument saying a lone talkheader is as useless, if not more so than a redlink is flawed. Maybe it was once the case, when WP was being edited by fewer people who all knew what they were doing (at least to a degree), but I personally think this needs strong consideration. At the very least, could you avoid deleting without a more self-explanatory message, because while creating (or deleting) a virtually-blank talk page takes no time, finding out why that page has then been deleted takes rather a lot of time. Hypothetically, if one's well-intentioned but not-quite-policy contributions are deleted without a good reason stated, one might be less inclined to contribute in the first place. That's my tuppence-worth. Finally, apologies if only admins are meant to post here.
--Peeky44 (talk) 02:04, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

Anyone's allowed to post here; it's a mix between discussion of matters that pertain to admins and a complaints department (despite the text at the top). MediaWiki:Talkpagetext is the relevant text that appears above talk pages, and does in fact link to Misplaced Pages:Talk page guidelines. --NE2 02:11, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

(unindent) The "arguments" being presented here are rather silly. As I (and others) have said, if there is information that is so vital as to require it to be on the top of every talk page, go Bugzilla and file a bug. Redlinks indicate that a page is content-less. If a talk page has no content, turning the red link blue to make all of the tabs at the top the same color is silly and unproductive. --MZMcBride (talk) 02:38, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

Not as silly as going to the trouble of writing and running a script to turn the bluelink red again :D. As has been said above, the most sensible way to handle these (if not the quick-and-easy solution) is to add useful content to the page, such as WikiProject banners. A list of these barren talkpages would be useful, but mindlessly deleting them just so they can be recreated again at some later date (don't forget the bitey "you are creating a page that has been deleted" warning that will now appear) is crazy. Deleting pages really doesn't make the wiki any tidier - it just messes up logs, histories and pages, bloats the database, and almost invariably requires more effort to undo when the time is right. Adding WikiProject banners to ten pages would be many times more beneficial to the project than deleting a thousand of these pages. That said, I do not condone the creation of these pages with just {{talkheader}} and that practice too should certainly be discontinued. Happy‑melon 21:49, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

To agree here with H-m, (I think), it is equally useless to create a page with {{talkheader}} as it is to delete a page with {{talkheader}}. Especially for the BLP articles (there've been a few). It would be much easier to type {{blp}} then to delete (at least, without a script). Every blp article should be tagged with the blp header, if not a wikiproject with it. MZM, I like what you are doing with stale (indef) usertalk, and the housekeeping is invaluable, in general. Please see the reasoning being given here though that "what's done is done". Discourage the creation of usertalk "for the sake of a bluelink", yes. But, H-m makes a valid point about "you are creating a page that has been deleted" and the ominousness of that post to someone (non-admin) who would have no idea what was deleted, or why it was deleted, or whether they'd get "in trouble" for "recreating it". Keeper ǀ 76 21:55, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

(unindent again) Once again, User:MZMcBride has embarked upon a massive spree of deletions that, while arguably within policy, are not absolutely vital, and now we have the fallout to deal with at WP:AN. This has happened before (here, for instance). Is it going to happen again? I hope not. --RFBailey (talk) 01:56, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

God forbid empty pages be deleted! Anything but that! But really, I always like to use these fun sessions at AN to point out more housekeeping that needs doing. Y'know, instead of mindless bantering here? This is a list of about 800 indefinitely blocked user / user talk pages that need to be reviewed and either removed from CAT:TEMP or deleted. If you don't want to do those, let me know, I have plenty of other things that need doing. Things that are far more beneficial to the project than chatting here. It's obvious quite a few people have more time than they can fill. Anything I can do to help. --MZMcBride (talk) 02:08, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

BenBurch comments on the recent suit against him for editing Misplaced Pages

This just showed up in my watch list; User:BenBurch I suggest ppl read it. (If this isn't the right notice board for this, feel free to move it!) --Betta Splendens (talk) 22:49, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

I think it needs deletion and oversight. It's pretty strong stuff. SHEFFIELDSTEEL 22:55, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

Deleted. Reading through again to check whether it fully warrants oversight. PeterSymonds (talk) 23:06, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

Under what condition for oversight does it (perhaps) meet?--Xp54321 23:11, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

I don't believe it does; the other party instigated the matter (if BenBurch is to be believed - per AGF), meaning there will be public records, and BB did not give the RL name of the party. The offending edits are deleted, BB has retired, and I think we can all move on. LessHeard vanU (talk) 23:17, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

What condition did it even meet for deletion ??? Yes, it's strong, and includes information about a real-life legal case, but it doesn't evidently violate any of our policy that I could see. What gives? If you can articulate a policy problem with it, fine, but ... Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 23:20, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

It doesn't warrant oversight. However, the deletion was appropriate. We don't need strong records of legal action in the page history. If another admin disagrees, as always, I'm fine for it to be overturned, but I think we should just move on. PeterSymonds (talk) 23:27, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

I don't know if deletion was necessary, but WP:BLP probably called at least for reverting or blanking it. -Chunky Rice (talk) 23:34, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

I didn't see any BLP related issues in the final deleted edit - a possibly sensitive name was removed by BenBurch himself before anyone asked him to, but that's it. Specifics please, on what is a BLP problem?

WP:LEGAL is all about "Don't threaten editors with lawsuits", which is not what happened here at all. BenBurch was sued (or more precisely, a restraining order filed for...), for Misplaced Pages activities. He reported on what happened, without including (as far as I see) any threats against anyone or any information which is private info about any participants. That someone in the community was sued is open knowledge - his report on what happened seems entirely appropriate here. How does deleting that info fall under any of our policies or help the community or project or encyclopedia? I don't see there being any point to deleting it, and though it's not "an abuse" of process or someone it seems to clearly have been a mistake that should be un-done... Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 23:39, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

It's uncited contentious POV material about a living person. That's what BLP is all about, right? -Chunky Rice (talk) 23:45, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

The online court records appear to support this as far as they go. I am betting that if we get the actual records (Original research I understand) that they will say the same as he said here. This did not sound contrived. --Betta Splendens (talk) 23:55, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

• Wow, I posted that here because I thought people needed to READ it not DELETE it. It ought to be restored and protected. Geeze, guys. --Betta Splendens (talk) 23:41, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

  I think Ben deserves our congratulations. DuncanHill (talk) 23:49, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

Well, I've restored and reverted back to the last revision by Sarah. I'm not sure if the deletion was a mistake, but my actions are unsupported, so I'm happy to bow to the community. PeterSymonds (talk) 23:44, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

Wait, I still don't see the statement. Arkon (talk) 23:53, 1 August 2008 (UTC) (edit) Sorry, I see it, I am an idiot. Arkon (talk) 23:54, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

It's in the history, the last three edits before my reversion. Per WP:BLP, his edits should not be un-reverted. PeterSymonds (talk) 23:55, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

I think it should be unreverted, too. It says a lot that others need to read, I think. But then IANAA. --Betta Splendens (talk) 23:50, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

Definitely not. PeterSymonds (talk) 23:51, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

I have reverted to the user's original statement. It needs to be said. Enough with the fucking WP:BLP whining, Violet was a liar and any cursory search of google shows this to be the case. I recommend any and all assist in deterring Peter's vandalism. --Dragon695 (talk) 00:20, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

I'm not going to war with you; I undid your edit before you came here. My edits, however, are not vandalism. PeterSymonds (talk) 00:22, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

Uh, Peter, it isn't unsourced information, Ben Burch is a primary source. We need to stop censoring stuff that isn't a violation of our policies. Cla68 (talk) 00:22, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

What Ben did was finally stand up to the pathetic whiners who bitch to OTRS, threaten to sue, and anything else just because they don't like the truth. Well the truth hurts, and this incident has galvanized my believe that we must be as apathetic as possible towards the subjects of our articles. WP:NPOV must and always will trump WP:BLP. What Ben has done is win one for the good guys. --Dragon695 (talk) 00:26, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

Dragon695, can you avoid describing the incident in terms this lurid? That does not help in any way. Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 01:07, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

WP:NOT#SOAPBOX. Are you saying his edits are NPOV? They aren't. PeterSymonds (talk) 00:27, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

Indeed, for all external subjects, it isn't. However, when an editor, in good standing, is sued frivolously and has his name dragged through the mud on wiki, I think we owe him the courtesy of posting his vindication. It is the least we could do, considering I do not think WMF covered his attorney fees. It was Ben who stood up for WP:NPOV in the face of an unsavory, litigious character who wanted to POV push on her own article. --Dragon695 (talk) 00:32, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

Calm down. I realize that this incident involves Misplaced Pages, so of course, we're all interested and have opinions about it, but in any other case, we wouldn't allow anybody who had a personal encounter with another person to post a long screed about how terrible that person was on their userpage. There are forums for this sort of thing (Misplaced Pages Review or wherever), but this just isn't one of them. -Chunky Rice (talk) 00:33, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

It is not a screed, it is a statement that tells other editors to be bold and not be afraid of those who cry WP:BLP. Just because someone doesn't like the truth doesn't mean it should be removed. I will continue to revert any attempts to remove the very necessary statement on his userpage. I'm sick and fucking tired of people whining about WP:BLP, it is time someone stood for WP:V and WP:NPOV. --Dragon695 (talk) 00:38, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

And which of those supports not elsewhere reported allegations of perjury against identifiable people? Sarcasticidealist (talk) 00:47, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

Who cares? Violet filed a frivolous suit, it was dismissed with prejudice. At the very least, that makes her a liar. In order to bring the case, she had to lie to the court. Lying in court testimony is perjury. However, since you are WP:BLP fanatic, I'll excuse your oversight of these facts. --Dragon695 (talk) 00:51, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

I believe both suits were actually dismissed without prejudice, weren't they? For the record.  :) -- Vary | Talk 01:14, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

It certainly does not mean that. Having a complaint dismissed means that you lost, not that you lied. And it definitely doesn't mean that the loser committed perjury. You really need to moderate your tone. -Chunky Rice (talk) 01:23, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

True. Dragon, please stop the showboating. Just because Blue is clearly (and objectively) a dipshit doesn't mean we go no holds barred.Yeago (talk) 01:33, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

I am not showboating. Yes, perhaps my language was strong, but I feel that we are under attack by those who wish to spin their biographies and those who would warp policy to fit this agenda. It is important that an editor's experience be given light to show that standing for WP:NPOV against WP:BLP is possible and that one need not cave because a subject is unhappy about it. I feel strongly that his userpage should be left in tact without being scrubbed by well-intentioned persons who have their hearts in the right places but who are taking things a little too far with WP:BLP. I WP:DGAF about Violet Blue or her feelings at this point, she had to lie in order to bring the claim as Ben pointed out. His statements are backed up by the facts and the correlation only involves minor original research. Given that it is a userpage and that many users who have retired in the past have left lengthy rationales for their departure, I see no reason that any part should be removed. He has been careful not to reveal any information that would personally cause harm, I think that is more than enough. --Dragon695 (talk) 09:52, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

What does it take to move this out of the realm of original research completely? I see only one matter at issue here; Her name(s) and age. And I did spend some time (not much was required) with google, and some of the people-search engines out there and even without paying money it would appear that the allegation is likely to be actually true, there being several aliases for this person with a matching age. But at what time does using search products available to the public, and which come from public records themselves, constitute original research, and when is it just plain old research? I see that we are allowed in some ways to use primary sources, but I am confused by the limitations of that use. And at some point isn't it perverse to maintain that we cannot use obviously-true information at all? Will some of you setters-of-policy expound a bit upon this? --Betta Splendens (talk) 17:16, 3 August 2008 (UTC)

• SIGH - I hadn't intended to come back HERE at all, but an admin wrote me asking that I do so.

Here are source documents for this case. We do not have the ruling or the minutes of the hearing yet;

Here is the court log of action in the case;

Now, if you will excuse me, I'm DONE here. --BenBurch (talk) 00:36, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

I am sadden to see you go. In my mind, you did the right thing. Please know that there are users and editors who appreciate what you have done. Thank you for standing up for our rights! --Dragon695 (talk) 00:45, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

heads up NonvocalScream (talk) 01:12, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

• Um, this is lame. Ben was sued by a litigious and distinctly odd individual (who ha salso had spats with Boing Boing and other places). I don't think there's much to be gained from writing up the case report on his user page, but I certainly can't see that he's done anything wrong or actionable here. I don't think we sanction people for being attacked and exonerated n the real world, do we? Guy (Help!) 08:36, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

Perhaps I over-reacted on seeing phrases like Her claimed fear of violence was, at best, delusional and, at worst, a lie. Even if not deleted, I think that the page (and some comments in this thread) might need to be edited for tone. Winning a lawsuit (or getting a case dismissed) doesn't give you the right to say whatever you want about someone. SHEFFIELDSTEEL

The first section seems distinctly odd: "She also sought an order that I could not "harass, attack, strike, threaten, assualt (sexually or otherwise), hit, follow, stalk , destroy personal property, keep under surveillance, block movements, contact .".... She lost on all counts."

Surely you are entitled not to be harassed,attacked or assaulted regardless of whether or not you have an order to say so... Lemon martini (talk) 00:52, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

PalestineRemembered

I'd like to propose a community ban of PalestineRemembered (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log). He's been through numerous mentors trying to curb his behaviour and yet he still continues to push his pro Palestine POV on numerous articles. I actually blocked him a few days ago because he came back after four days off the project and made three article edits, all of which were reverts. He's well known to edit war to get his point across. He was subject to an arbitration case because of a habit in using extremely poor sources to push his POV - the arbitration case was closed with no action, but there's still a problem with this as shown in his block log. Numerous users have tried, and failed, to lead him on the right path, but he continues to make poorly sourced contributions, and edit wars to keep them in place. Thoughts would be appreciated. Ryan Postlethwaite 23:58, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

I'd support an indefinite and broadly interpreted topic ban on all articles related to the Israeli-Palestine conflict--if only because judging by his edit history, it would have the effect of a siteban. Blueboy96 00:38, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

I will support such a topic ban. I don't think he needs a siteban, and he might decide to contribute constructively to other topics. However, he has demonstrated an inability to adhere to NPOV editing on PIA-related articles. Horologium (talk) 00:48, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

A topic ban could work, and I'd certainly support it, but I just have concerns that he'd simply take his problematic editing to other pages. Ryan Postlethwaite 00:52, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

While I think that a topic ban will certainly become a de facto site ban, it does look like there are no options left to keep the warring down. — Coren  00:54, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

Normally we do topic bans when an editor has a problem with one area and a productive track record elsewhere. No opinion on the proposal (due to my mentorship of another party PR has been in dispute with), but suggest PR's productivity in different areas merits review since both options are under discussion. Durova 01:49, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

I got this idea from WP:RFAR/Waldorf education/Review, in which a mostly single-purpose editor was topic-banned in a way that had the effect of a siteban. Blueboy96 02:07, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

Oh boy do I remember that case... Durova 02:08, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

• Oppose community ban Not everyone is knows all the details. Therefore, I oppose community ban unless and until the proposal details what are the objectionable edits (recent diffs, please) and what non-objectionable edits have been made. The prosecutor (person wanting the community ban) should present the material in a neutral fashion and not slanted toward community ban. There is mention in the beginning of this thread that the ArbCom case was closed with no action. Thus, banning may be bucking ArbCom.

I could change my mind if the proper background is described. Based only on the information above (and not doing extensive original research), I must default to oppose. Presumptive (talk) 06:48, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

I have to agree with Presumptive. Can we have some actual evidence of disputed conduct, please? I'm a little concerned that we seem to be rushing to a topic ban without any discussion of specific issues. I couldn't in good faith support such an action merely on the say-so of an admin (sorry Ryan, nothing personal!). -- ChrisO (talk) 07:25, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

Sorry guys, I thought this was an extremely well known problem with his editing. Numerous admins have been involved with him before. I'm at work today, so I won't be able to provide more details until after work, but I'll certainly get the diffs out when I've finished. Ryan Postlethwaite 07:35, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

OK, thanks for that. I've seen mentions of his name before on AN/I but I would imagine that most of us won't have much awareness of what's going on with him at the moment. If you could cite specific problems that would be a great help. -- ChrisO (talk) 08:32, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

• PalestineRemembered is, I believe, precisely the kind of editor who the arbitrators had in mind when the idea of broadly constructed topic bans was developed. A textbook case of an agenda-driven account. If he wants to contribute productively to other areas then fine, but his involvement in articles related to Israel and Palestine is, as far as I can tell, a substantial drain on everybody else concerned and serves to perpetuate the state of dispute on those articles. I'd be prepared to rethink this position if anyone can show me evidence of PR proposing a moderate compromise in any dispute, and that compromise achieving consensus. Guy (Help!) 08:28, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

Of his last 100 edits, most are not in article space. He seems to be involved in many discussions on talk pages and noticeboards, but isn't editing articles much. What's the specific problem? --John Nagle (talk) 15:48, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

The specif problem is that his article-space edits are either reverts, or tendentious editing based on bad sources, and that his Talk-space edits are soapboxing, which does not improve articles. In short, he is a net detriment to the project. Canadian Monkey (talk)

• Since joining wikipedia, PR has been blocked 13 times, by 9 different administrators. He has been assigned mentorship as a result of an ArbCom case against him, but has exhausted the patience of 4 different mentors, of whom Ryan p, the nominator of these sanctions, is the latest. I don’t believe I’ve seen any other editor on WP with a block log quite as long as his – almost all of which is related to disruptive editing on I-P articles. I find myself in agreement with Guy on both points he makes – that this is precisely the kind of editor who the arbitrators had in mind when the idea of broadly constructed topic bans was developed, and that this is a textbook case of an agenda-driven account, which PR himself admits. I would support a topic ban from all I-P related articles, and if PR wants to be a positive contributor to the project, there are 2 million other articles for him to work on. Canadian Monkey (talk) 18:06, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

Apart from the history, could someone please explain what spurred this move recently? I understand if people think that in the past PR was uncivil. I do think s/he takes a harsh and unconciliatory tone. However, in recent months I have mostly encountered him/her at Battle of Jenin, and I guess other than taking a harsh tone, I can't see what the problem has been recently - s/he has not engaged in edit-warring there.LamaLoLeshLa (talk) 18:21, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

• support topic ban Given that he has gone through 4 different mentors and that the latest is now calling for a general ban on this user, and the length of PR's block log, I really don't see a reasonable answer. PR makes occasionally good edits, but most are just POV pushing. Also I have some hope that a topic ban might teach PR to work better within the community framework so that he can eventually return to these articles. JoshuaZ (talk) 20:03, 2 August 2008 (UTC)
• Support topic ban per everyone else. PalestineRemembered's edits are largely disgraceful. He has been guilty of calling Zionists "proud of their murderous racism," spreading Zionist conspiracy theories,, comparing Zionists with Nazis, comparing Israeli historians with Holocaust deniers, and basically committing logical fallacies and spreading disinformation left and right. Enough is enough. --GHcool (talk) 20:46, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

GHcool, I just took a look at the links you inserted re: the nazi comment and "murderous racism", thinking that if indeed PR said these things, s/he should have been blocked at the time. However, forgive me, but I did a search on "nazi" and "murderous" and did not see the comments. Could you please specify where the comments are? Thanks much, LamaLoLeshLa (talk) 23:53, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

For that first diff, scroll down to the section on Norman Finkelstein, open it, and then take a look at PR's comment (the last one in that section). He does indeed use the statement GHcool ascribes to him. I've not looked at the others, but if they are similar to the first, the search function will not find keywords inside collapsed comments. Horologium (talk) 02:12, 3 August 2008 (UTC)

Comment: GHcool's links are from December 2006 to January 2008. People may prefer to look at the diffs Jayjg provides below, which are from July 31 to August 1, 2008 (besides the SPA link of 13 May 2008). Some of GHcool's links are not diffs. Here's the "murderous racism" diff: 31 December 2006; PalestineRemembered was blocked the following day. Here's a diff from the 3rd link GHCool provided: 29 December 2006. Coppertwig (talk) 15:04, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

• Comment. It would help to give links to the ArbCom case, which I believe required that PR be placed under mentorship, and the main AN/I's etcetera about PR, esp those dealing with mentorship. Note also that the Ryan himself has been PR's mentor for some time. The specific history would help put concerns over editing in context. Thanks. HG | Talk 03:08, 3 August 2008 (UTC)
• Oppose Both GHcool and Horologium are adducing evidence from an exchange between a certain Rubin and PR that took place in December 2006. Rubin was wrong, and PR was right in that exchange, since the former was trying to bracket the fact that Finkelstein is a descendent of Holocaust survivors. The remark about 'Zionist racism' in that specific exchange, refers to 'Zionist politicians' not to Zionists, and in this regard PR has been intentionally misrepresented, apart from the fact that evidence from two years ago should not be dredged up to push a complaint regarding contemporary behaviour. It should not have been said, but that the allusion is to Israeli politicians whose pages had been strongly defended from any attempts to annotate both their racist beliefs, and murderous past is evident. PR's point was that Finkelstein, a son of Holocaust survivors, had been subject to relentless attack because he was critical of Israel's record on human rights, whereas Zionist politicians with a past involving the indiscriminate murder of Palestinians, and racist remarks (Ariel Sharon, to cite one of many) have pages less prone to editorial assault. Ryan must have good reasons, on contemporary evidence, to make his complaint. That evidence will no doubt be forthcoming, and it is that which must form the basis for an eventual judgement. It should not be contaminated by evidence from prior cases (like the misrepresentations used here). The remark that troubles me in Ryan's charge is this:'yet he still continues to push his pro Palestine POV on numerous articles.' Off the top of my head I could think of a dozen bad editors who push, in edits, a singlemindedly pro-israeli POV, and have records expressing disdain or contempt for the other party that is supposed to be represented. They have overall enjoyed far more hospitality than people who are said to mirror their bias on the Palestinian side. They are edit warriors pushing an extremist pro-Israeli POV, cripple pages and making life difficult for serious contributors, and no one moves a finger. Perhaps they stick around because their opponents do not complain as much as they do. Nishidani (talk) 16:28, 3 August 2008 (UTC)

Hi. Just wanted to add a note or two. GHcool and Horlogium are absolutely not edit-warriors in any sense of the word. That term needs to be used with a little more care. you can bet that I will not We cannot allow this proceeding to degenerate into name-calling of any sort.If action is desired on Palestine Remembered, I urge the committee or other ruling body to issue a strong statement on his actions in regards to proper procedures. thanks. --Steve, Sm8900 (talk) 18:52, 3 August 2008 (UTC)

Comment to Sm8900: I believe Nishidani was talking about "a dozen bad editors" and not GHcool and Horlogium when he was mentioning mirroring PalestineRemebered's alleged bias and getting away with it. I disagree with his "one-sidedness of wikipedia" assessment but do agree that some of the diffs have been a bit old and more of a reminder of why he was assigned forced mentorship than examples of recent misconduct. Jaakobou 19:48, 3 August 2008 (UTC) clarify. 19:49, 3 August 2008 (UTC)

Ok, good point. thanks for the clarification. --Steve, Sm8900 (talk) 22:13, 3 August 2008 (UTC)

Just a note to thank Jaakobou for the precision with which he read my remarks and the intended meanings. It was very decent of you, thanks. Nishidani (talk) 09:58, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

Apologies. I will retract my comments. thanks. --Steve, Sm8900 (talk) 13:40, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

It is a good point. I would add, however, that Nishidani appears to have done exactly what PR did years ago, except he named a specific living person as "murderous" and "racist." I'd like to request that he immediately refactor those remarks. IronDuke 22:28, 3 August 2008 (UTC)

• Oppose ban, prefer a long block - perhaps 3 months? Agree with Jaakobou about the diffs. PhilKnight (talk) 20:52, 3 August 2008 (UTC)
• Oppose ban. Due to the very heated nature of this subject, I propose that ALL parties in this discussion and everyone involved be banned for 5 days effective 4 August 2008 until 9 August 2008. No block would be made in the record but if there is ANY editing, a formal 5 day block would be placed. Since I have commented here, I would be included. Let's all stop fighting. Spevw (talk) 21:20, 3 August 2008 (UTC)

Further discussion

• Support. I don't understand the issue to begin with; User:PalestineRemembered was an admitted SPA whose every edit is propaganda and every Talk: page comment is a typically irrelevant soapbox, often with WP:BLP violations thrown in for spice. In other words, the editor behind the "PalestineRemembered" account is saying that the account is a secondary account used only to edit I-P related areas. I say was an admitted SPA because the fact that he has started to edit articles outside of the I-P area indicates that User:PalestineRemembered is now merely a garden-variety sockpuppet account, rather than an a supposedly legitimate WP:SPA. As for examples? A quick glance through his past week's edits show a BLP violation against "the likes of Ayaan Hirsi Ali", a BLP violation against Mitchell Bard, and some sort of weird attacks on Paul Bogdanor in which he claims, inter alia, that "everyone agrees that Kastner collaborated with the Nazis - and almost everyone thinks that, late in the war, he tricked some 450,000 of his fellows to go quietly to the ovens". This is the kind of tendentious nonsense User:PalestineRemembered liberally spreads on Talk: pages and articles. In reality, historians don't agree on this at all, and the latest book on the subject concludes that he was a war hero who saved 12,000-18,000 lives. The book, by the way, won the 2007 Nereus Writers' Trust Non-Fiction Prize, and was shortlisted for the 2008 Charles Taylor Literary Prize for Non-Fiction. As for 3 months, if one thing characterizes the editor behind User:PalestineRemembered it's his dogged and dogmatic persistence; he waited out previous lengthy blocks, and returned from them completely unchanged. I see no reason to think a lengthier block will produce a novel result. Jayjg 23:53, 3 August 2008 (UTC)

I urge everyone to read the diffs posted by Jay - that's exactly the behaviour that's problematic. He summed it up when he said PR uses WP to soapbox - to me, it looks like one of his only aims here. Ryan Postlethwaite 01:24, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

Entirely possible that your interpretation of PR's behaviour is true. However, that does not emerge from Jay's diffs in the least. For example, attempting to trim overuse of the very marginal Paul Bogdanor, who has compared Vietnamese land reform to the Holocaust and Noam Chomsky to Holocaust deniers, is hardly problematic. Quoting what was close to the standard view of Kastner, a man for whose tragic story I personally have tremendous sympathy, is hardly grounds for a ban. Tendentious nonsense is not, of course, limited in this area of WP to PR. --Relata refero (disp.) 22:05, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

• Oh, fucking please. “He was subject to an arbitration case because of a habit in using extremely poor sources to push his POV" – what a load of hogwash and balderdash. PR was subject to an arbitration case because a rogue admin made bogus claims about his sources – claims which were unanswerably discredited within an hour. His accuser lacked the decency and honesty to retract his fatuous accusations, and Ryan lacked – and continues to lack – the competence to understand what happened in the first place. Take Ryan off PR's mentorship and keep an eye on Jayjg, who has a troubling record of harassing PR and lying about his editing. PR has a bit of a WP:SOAP problem, but it is nothing next to the deceptions of his accusers.--G-Dett (talk) 04:46, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

And with that post, G-Dett violated WP:No personal attacks and WP:CIVIL and committed the tu quoque logical fallacy. I ask that he refrain from committing fallacies of relevance and violating Misplaced Pages policy in the future. Thank you in advance. --GHcool (talk) 06:12, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

I was going to congratulate the community for not attacking anyone daring to defend me. This makes a startling and very welcome difference from everything that has happened before on countless absurd and evidence-free "disciplinaries" raised against me. It's no wonder that not one of those people (ie everyone who has known me here longest and found me a careful and cooperative editor) dared to speak earlier. PR 06:52, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

GHCool, I’m not sure what you mean here by tu quoque. I do not think PR’s transgressions – which consist chiefly of a querulous, windy, SOAPy style of talk-page engagement – merit a permanent ban. If he were doing this in an area of the encyclopedia where quiet, polite, high-quality collaborative editing were the norm, it might be justified to move thus against him – but he’s not. He’s editing in an area of the encyclopedia where hackery, demagoguery, policy distortions and even large-scale hoaxes are the norm, where the most talented and energetically fair-minded admin finds himself article-banned for a month, and where the most prolific and influential editor – an admin and former arbcom member, no less – is a full-time propagandist. It is this latter admin whose thoroughly (and I do mean thoroughly) discredited charges against PR last year resulted in the snarled web of litigious pseudo-drama of which this thread is only the latest example (see Jay’s deliberately deceptive posts about PR on Ryan’s talk page in recent weeks, which Ryan appears to have taken at face value). Had Jay done the decent thing and retracted his spring-2007 accusations once they were thoroughly exploded, the matter would have been cleared up and we wouldn’t have so many editors and admins still stumbling around in a fog. But he didn’t. Instead he repackaged his accusations as insinuations, thus throwing a cloak of deniability over his ongoing crusade against PR.

It is this snarled web, not PR’s talk-page speechifying, which represents the real drain on the community’s resources. Notwithstanding his guilelessness, PR is very well-read in the subjects he edits. His occasionally breaches of citation etiquette (things he finds in secondary sources he seems to want to cite to primary sources, I don’t know why) could ‘’easily’’ be cleared up by good-faith editors; instead, his detractors pounce upon innocent mistakes and rev up the engines of insinuation in an effort to get him banned. The reason they want him banned – make no mistake about it – is that he is pro-Palestinian and they are pro-Israel. Sadly, there are a number of good-faith, neutral editors and admins who have had the wool pulled over their eyes. As with 80% of the editors on I/P articles, including you and me, PR’s edits come from a discernable point of view. But there is an oft-forgotten yet absolutely essential distinction between editors who make POV-edits (bad partisan edits justified by spurious policy arguments) and editors whose good edits reveal, in the aggregate, a partisan point of view. PR is the latter kind of partisan, and he wears his politics on his sleeve. He is the target of an ongoing campaign of harassment by the former kind of partisan, who disguises his politics in a high-concept, even baroque form of WP:GAMEsmanship, with all of the predictable consequences.--G-Dett (talk) 15:33, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

• Exasperation shared. Ryan evidently is exasperated, with mentorship, and is in his rights to complain. Many are exasperated by the nonsense adduced to sustain his suit, particularly by Jayjg. Jayjg, every edit of yours I have observed over two years looks like a defence of a national image interest, and the mastery of wiki rules you display evinces an instrumental use of them to keep out material you think damaging to that interest, and, in my experience, is rarely employed to the advantage of creating a comprehensive and reliable encyclopedia. If I've broken some rule in saying what most editors on my side of the line believe obvious, by all means take the requisite action.
• Are those who rush to judgement familiar with the intricate literature on the subjects PR alludes to? Jayjg clearly isn't, his screed and diffs are a travesty, with a certain specious gesture towards evidence, but which, read against the historical literature, are just that, a clever piece of selective culling of highly partial evidence. It is a matter of context, and one's instincts about where editors are pushing things in defiance of broad historical knowledge. All one need do is wonder why he, otherwise so insistant on links, does not link us to Rudolf Kastner, or to Paul Bogdanor, or Mitchell Bard, etc. Jayjg holds to ransom a large number of potential edits I or anyone else could make on numerous pages Baruch Goldstein, Israel Shahak, Israeli Settlements, or Judaism, and his refrain is, you need an area specialist on every occasion to qualify as a reliable source. Thus I cannot cite a book that was not shortlisted for a minor literary prize but shortlisted as one of the best books of 2007 on Slate, because its author David Shulman, one of the foremost academic experts on Dravidian languages, a peace activist fluent in Hebrew and Arabic, Israeli academic, with years of work in the Occupied Territories observing settler violence, is not a qualified expert on settlers, according to Jayjg! Now neither Paul Bogdanor nor Mitchell Bard are anywhere near reliable sources (they are people without a proper academic grounding it the subjects they airily descant on), and PR's dismissal of them was a correct call. For Jayjg to hold Pr to ransom on this is to question the quality of civil language employed in order to obstruct an appropriate edit on content, as is usual. It is, in Jayjg's case, a matter of the pot calling the kettle black, to challenge PR's dismissal of sources like those, and yet challenge, as Jayjg invariably does, academic sources critical of Israeli policies whenever they are no compatible with the strictest reading of WP:RS. The same for the Nereus book winner book on Kastner. What PR says is what Eichman said in his memoirs: '(Kastner) agreed to keep the Jews from resisting deportation. if I would close my eyes and let a few hundred or a few thousand young Jews emigrate illegally to Palestine. It was a good bargain.' (for Eichmann and co, who got $1,600,000 in exchange for allowing 1600 Jews to survive out of the 750,000 listed for extermination. Anyone who was not Orthodox, Zionist, prominent, an orphan, a refugee, a paying person, a member of Kastner's family or a revisionist had no chance).PR, like the large majority of historians on this figure, and like Judge Halevi at his trial, is appalled by someone who, privy to the doom awaiting hundreds of thousands of fellow Jews, 'sold his soul to the devil' by not giving them at least the chance to know what awaited them, to allow them to flee, resist, fight, and kept them in ignorance of their fate while getting out a few, including his relatives, 'useful' for Zionism.
• Neither Bogdanor (whose viciously bitchy and mendacious nonsense on Shahak's page Jayjg apparently supports) nor the Hungarian lady in question meet Jayjg's criteria for reliable sources. Neither is a qualified historian or area specialist, in the sense he invariably adduces before allowing an edit on a sensitive subject where Israel's image is concerned. I happen to disagree with PR on many things (while wholegheartedly sharing PR's view that a very large number of I/P articles are disgracefully unbalanced), but there is absolutely no doubt that for some years Pr has become a standard target for many editors who desire a permanent ban. It is irresponsible to run to administration every time PR returns, over a small number of edits (and the material cited is extremely thin), and scream 'raus'!!! Form is increasingly what trumpts substance in these altercations (ChrisO's recent problems egregiously underline the absurdity. Vassyana's criticism of Eleland, on unbelievably narrow grounds another. Look at his recent florligeium of remarks made by many respected editors from the Jerusalem Talk page, and judge the material PR is accused of in the light of the harshness of their remarks and insinuations). Once more appeal to proper 'form' is snuffing out content. PR indeed has a problem with the exacting wikiquette forms (who doesn't?). It is true however that on more than one occasion in the past, good (adversary) material PR has come up with is not wanted by many on those articles, and PR's deficits in 'attitude' are the excuse employed to block the material PR might post. I say this as someone who has reverted PR, supported people like Tewfik against some of PR's edits, and as one who thinks PR's failure in the past to learn not to lead with one's chin is disappointing. Nishidani (talk) 12:04, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

PalestineRemembered speaks: User:Ryan Postlethwaite has urged everyone read the diffs posted by Jayjg, a most excellent idea.

• Examine the light-weight source with which Jayjg seeks to defend Kastner - a man who undoubtedly deceived to their deaths some 450,000 (400,000?) Hungarian Jews on behalf of the Nazis. (For profit according to most people, and at a point in the war when many of the Jews could almost certainly have saved themselves).
• Examine the way Jayjg defends the blogger Paul Bogdanor, and the (apparent) propagandist Mitchell Bard. So much for writing an encyclopedia to WP:ReliableSources. (Where shall we discuss many more examples?)
• I have no problem with Ayaan Hirsi Ali (as I said at the time). But people could be very interested in the discussion that Jayjg references. Again, I'd seem to be on the side of WP:POLICY, scholarship and good writing.
• I attempted to deal with the broad sweep of these allegations (eg the claim that my 3 or 4 real mentors had any problems with my conduct) on my TalkPage, have people missed it? I have more offers of a mentor - even the shocking experience of those who went before doesn't stop brave people and lovers of this project coming forwards.
• Lastly, please ponder the logic of these accusations of sock-puppetry. If we didn't know better, we'd think people were desperately casting round for any excuse to get rid of a really useful and scrupulously honest editor, with a strong preference for good sources. PR 06:30, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

Its a shame that PalestineRemembered chose to defend himself largely by using tu quoque logical fallacies. I hope he doesn't expect the Misplaced Pages community to be swayed by this ill conceived tactic. --GHcool (talk) 07:04, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

My fellow editors might like to know that "tu quoque" is Lation for "a hypocritical accusation". They will have doubtless realized by now that I don't lie, I don't cheat, I don't sock-puppet and I have a passion for good sources. Nor do I edit-war, make false accusations of vandalism or tell people that a highly regarded and very well-cited son of Holocaust survivors "is an unreliable source at best and a malicious one at worst" - what price RELIABLE SOURCES when this goes on? GHcool's objections were dealt with above - his attitude to WP:RS and BLP appear to be the diametric opposite of mine.

I'm sorry that User:GHcool's UserPage has been deleted and re-created by administrative action without warning, it's long survival over all protests might have been a useful precedent to name and shame cheats. All assistance to put integrity back into editting will be very welcome. PR 08:18, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

Further discussions, sect 2

Support topic ban for user to review and understand what is required of wikipedia editors For the record, I am the editor who suggested the mentorship that prevented PR from being indef banned last time. Since that time, I am aware of enough times where PR has deliberately skirted, or outright ignored, policies, guidelines, and the advice of his various mentors in order to continue a pattern of POV posting and subtle user harrassment. I have been in contact with his mentors, most recently Ryan, regarding these issues, and, to my chagrin, have never seen anything remotely like remorse, a desire to do better, a desire to work with other users, especially those with whom he has fundamental disagreements. As one who deals with the Israeli/Palestinian conflicts as a mentor and one who tries to defuse inter-editor issues behind the scenes, I have had little other than frustration from the direction of PR, and I have lost the ability to believe that his edits are in good faith and meant to better the project. Rather, I believe he has acted as a self-employed agent provocateur and POV warrior, and his continued presence in Palestinian/Israeli articles will serve no other purpose than disruption until such time as the community and project can be assured that PR will edit in a manner befitting and becoming of the encyclopedia. -- Avi (talk) 13:57, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

Well, where is the new evidence, Avi? Without substantial new evidence, this is beginning to look like a very odd scalp-hunt for an old target, using pretexts to rid a good researcher, albeit with a loose tongue, whose outlook others dislike, simply in order to thin the ‘opposition’.

I have reread all of GHcool’s diffs, and fail to understand how his description of them corresponds to their real content. I was totally unaware of what G-Dett now remarks on, the evidence-gathering campaign by Jayjg waged on Ryan’s page recently. but if so, then I suggest Ryan ignore it, drop the mentorship and leave it at that.

The only evidence raised so far is a shabby hodgepodge of trivia, in part trawled from ancient archives (2006). The rest is Jayjg's handiwork, patently instrumental and question-begging, since he demonstrably employs the same techniques he gives out as deploring in PR recently. If PR is a 'pov-warrior', what is Jayjg, now his/her main accuser? Had Ryan pressed the case on his own, instead of delegating the 'proof' to such a completely unreliable source as Jayjg, this complaint might have warranted respect. Not one of you lift a fingers in editorial activity to emend the disgraceful state of a page which Jayjg has done much to reduce to a medley of vicious innuendo, a page smearing a Jew of great learning, humane passion and critical witness (according to all those who knew him personally), something which PR has consistently drawn attention to, a wiki page not one of those who wish for PR to be banned cares to improve beyond its present state of being a savage indictment by innuendo and vicious whispering of an honourable and distinguished Jew, a page which should not be tolerated on an encyclopedia. How easy it is to pick off fellow-editors by formalstic cavilling, while preening oneself in insouciant disregard of the substance at stake. As long as many persist in jumping at editors for 'tone' and 'civility' while airily waiving aside the substance of that editor's complaint, or refusing to improve the pages whose disgracefully unbalanced quality that editor protests, all of these calls for a ban will sound hollow. You are all supposed to be wedded to an idea of encyclopedicity, which means, precisely, forsaking national gamesmanship in order to secure comprehensive neutral articles. Where is the new evidence? So far we have nothing other than Ryan's fatigue with mentorship and a patchy screed by a 'POV warrior' on the opposite side, who watches his p's and q's meticulously while objectively stacking texts with a partisan slant, in contempt of the ideals of encyclopedicity. Where is the appropriate wiki link for the practice of schadenfreudlicher scalp-taking?Nishidani (talk) 16:16, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

Nishidani, Did you see the links that Jayjg gave out? I don't think July 31, 2008 is old news. I have not taken the time, nor do I have the time to go through it all and look at the whole situation, but please don't say there is no new evidence without mentioning the stuff that folks have put forth. You can claim that those links are not valid evidence, or that they are not the whole story, but lets not ignore them. Doing so only makes the waters muddy. —— nixeagle 16:30, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

If you don't have the time to check through all the links, and can't remember a thousand unsaid things from past conflicts which relate to how all participants here read what's going on, there's little point in making the remark you made.Nishidani (talk) 17:50, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

There is very much a point. You seem to be telling me and everyone else watching that there is no new violations, but above I see people saying there are new violations, they even provide diffs. What I was telling you above was to make sure you saw those diffs, as it appeared to me you had not seen them. Doing so only muddies the water. —— nixeagle 18:01, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

I enjoyed the stylistic variation between your two posts. 'makes the waters muddy' and then 'muddies the water', but the aesthetic frisson was somewhat spoiled by reading 'there is no new violations'.Nishidani (talk) 18:56, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

You are free to assert that, however you are not explaining why what some people are asserting are violations, are not violations. Anyone can say there are or are not violations, but just saying that does not make it so. You have me confused, you said there were no recent violations, yet I'm seeing posts from July 31 being offered as evidence. I don't think that is "old". If it is not evidence, please explain why it is not, concisely. —— nixeagle 19:16, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

A general point. Most of the problems in the world arise from communities consolidating their identity by trusting in the in-group hearsay. Democracies survive when there are a sufficient number individuals dedicated to questioning the commodified clichés of groupist thinking/ideology/ whatever, who actually check things out with their own eyes, reason by their own lights, and measure the world by their real as opposed to hallucinated experiences of it in circulation. This tempers the irrationality of hearsay, and collectivist imaginings. So, like others involved, read through the diffs, when you get the time, preferably look at the page's whole context also, then make notes on each diff within its context, check the inferences made about what PR is said to be violating in those diffs, and then form your own judgement. Do not rely on what I, or Jayjg, or GHcool, or anyone else says. Form your own judgement and then report back.Nishidani (talk) 19:27, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

That is a valid point, however I was hoping for some kind of backup to your assertion that there is no new evidence. A starting point so to say for others to see what you mean. I see plenty of cited recent evidence from those saying there are violations, but I'm seeing nothing but wordplay from those that say there are not any violations. All I'm asking is someone point out why the diffs as presented are wrong. If I have missed the counter evidence amongst the sea of text, I'd appreciate someone pointing me at it. Thanks :) —— nixeagle 19:41, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

User:Nishidani, I have been in contact multiple times with Ryan via e-mail, as some of the issues relate to other editors. You may check Ryan's talk page history for some of the more obvious and open issues. Regardless, this is my opinion based on the time since August 2007, when I prevented PR being banned then. I do not believe he has taken the proper advantage of the mentorships he was afforded, and the chances he was given; I believe he continues to edit in an openly POV style; and I believe that his edits detract from wikipedia significantly more than they add. While I was cognizant of the positive edits that he has made back in August 2007, my reasoned opinion based on the intervening time, the number of times I had to be approached by person(s) I mentored, and the contradistinction between edits of people that I know are trying to act in accordance with our policies and PR's edits, have convinced me that the mentorship experiment was a failure at this time, and that PR needs to take a long-term break from anything like Palestinian/Israeli articles, if not the project as a whole. -- Avi (talk) 16:47, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

Perhaps then most should take a long holiday, because in human terms, these I/P articles have little to show after several years of intensive work. Who's to blame, a few people like PR? Come now. PR's behaviour is merely an infinitesimal part of what is problematic in this area. You can drive him or her off, and the structural impasse, which is one of diffidence, suspicion, and refined edit-warring while keeping mum on motivations, will remain, and wiki articles in this area will retain the reputation for slipshod tendentious amateurishness they have in academic circles.

I'm familiar with the record you allude to. I am also familiar with something missed here. I've tangled with PR on several occasions, and thrown the weight (in nanograms of course) of my judgement against PE and in favour of her opponent, who was a strong pro-Israeli editor while active. Now PR was no doubt perplexed by this, but did accept that my judgements were not grounded in some 'bias', and took note. I have my biases, as do we all. PR flags his/hers: many of PR's opponents go out of their way to finesse their obstructive editing by meticulous care for the rulebook. The result is, PR, leading with the chin, has copped a large number of administrative raps on the knuckles (mixed metaphor), whilst many of those editors whom both PR, I and many others regard as destructive editors in terms of the criterion of 'encyclopedicity' have a clean police sheet. If there were a minimal regard by many of these editors to revert bad edits made by peers from their own side, much of the frustration that PR displays, and the rest of us more or less hide, would wither away. There isn't much of that around. There is a very strong tendency to stay silent, and leave the management of conflict (a conflict on POVs) to respective members of opposing sides. That loud silence lends substance to a sense that a collegiate atmosphere is operating here on one side, solidly determined to ignore the old Jewish dictum, expropriated by Christianity,quid autem vides festucam in oculo fratris tui et trabem in oculo tuo non vides. I regard that as a recipé for disaster, and, in the I/P area, one reason why so many articles languish in a deplorable state. I have had severe problems with Jaakobou in the past, and it was with relief that I had occasion to note, before my withdrawal, one or two occasions where, unprompted, he reverted a bad edit by a poor contributor on his own side. This is the spirit that should be cultivated by experienced and reliable editors on both sides (and I addressed my remarks to you because you qualify, as far as I have interacted with you, as a rational editor of considerable experience). It is the edits not dutifully made by so many editors that disappoint, as much as the pettifogging obstructionism. The problem is not PR, who increasingly looks like an example with which to illustrate René Girard's theories: the problem is a lack of will to monitor I/P articles for encyclopedic quality by reining in anyone, from whatever side, editing out of a nationalist perspective, rather than an NPOV perspective. An embattlement mentality will persist in the political area for decadess to come. It should not be reflected here: Israel has no more to lose by a clear-eyed impartial approach to history than its communities had by moving out of the shtetl under the auspices of the haskalah. Indeed the gains to be gathered in are enormous. The genius and generosity of spirit of Judaism's multitude of scholars, thinkers, poets and writers is absent from these articles: there is almost no trace here of the wit, intelligence, acuity of refined judgement one instinctively associates with that tradition, and that is alive whenever Jewish people argue with each other. This is soap-boxing, irrelevant, a violation of WP:this and that, no doubt, the useless drivel of at least on editor who has given up on wiki articles (as opposed to an occasional critical kibitz). If only one had more interlocutors that mirror this heritage, so much of the frustration that blocks the expeditious drafting of I/P articles would fade away, and these incessant recourses to arbitrative sanctions over trivia would die on their feet. Regards Nishidani (talk) 17:47, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

Nishdani, I apologize for my lack of time, and thus inability to continue this discussion at length. I do not argue with you that there are systematic issues with P/I articles in toto, but I do not see how allowing editors whose methods seem to be more uncivil than is the norm serves to help the situation. I think that most everyone who is heavily involved should sit back for a while and take a break, and then approach the articles with the idea to make them truly NPOV, which is to have the major points of view described in proportion to those points of views proliferations; to remove WP:UNDUE-class statements from the articles where they are sued solely to further one side or the other, to use respectable, reliable, and verifiable sources, with indications of what those sources are, to try and remove any overly-colorful adjectives, and to allow the reader to follow proper source links to the original information to allow the reader to make up their own opinion. There are shades of color within the Palestinian and Israeli sides, and, mirroring the real world, the articles may be contentious for a number of years to come. However, there is no possibility of a working consensus (Avi's definition #22: A working consensus is the version of an article that is the least offensive to the greatest number of editors) unless the back-and-forth and discussions are performed with exaggerated civility and cordiality. We have to do our best to minimize (as prevention is impossible) the ideological struggle using wikipedia as its battleground, on both sides. Which is why, I return to saying, that from my recollections, PR has not acted in this manner and I have had more than one editor complain about what they perceive is a double-standard when it comes to PR's ability to seemingly be less careful about WP:CIVIL than other editors. PR is a very intelligent editor, that is obvious. I only wish that he used some of that prodigious talent to work with people as opposed to against them. -- Avi (talk) 19:52, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for the reply, Avi and I apologize for having unfairly drawn on your time, since I am no longer involved in editing. One point however, which perhaps you can explain to G-Dett by email. I have disposed of most of Jayjg's charges, which is what Ryan advises us to consult. The Ali Hirsi remark is on a Talk page, as is the remark, which I fully endorse and find innocuous, that 'Bard comes across as a serious propagandist with a particular interest in denial'. That is true, by any objective standards. In any case, wiki articles should be seriously sourced, and he should never be cited on those grounds alone.

PR here is not editing into the page on these people the judgement expressed. She (sorry PR but it is not obvious to me that you are male). The Ali Hirsi remark should have, out of pure curiosity, drawn requests for sources that justify PR's suggestion that Hirsi admitted to lying (if this is improper on a talk page, please review the Saeb Erekat archives for repeated suggestions he is lying, not sanctioned, and in my view rightly so because what is said on talk pages must be distinguished from what is edited in on articles. On Talk pages all kinds of material and suggestions should be broached, and not be subject to sanctions). Secondly, the Ali Hirsi contrast is made against what occurs, I insist on this, with the shockingly violent treatment meted out to Israel Shahak's memory in the meat of his article. That page is full of irresponsible trash, by half-baked polemicists who conspicuously and mischievously misrepresent the truth. Jayjg is holding PR's fortune's hostage to a judgement about Hirsi which he considers a 'violation of BLP' (on a talk page), while, at the same time, defending vicious crap about a dead person widely regarded by many eminent Jews and goys who knew him personally, some of whom I have corresponded with, who find that page infamous, and wiki beneath contempt because of this kind of editing. So, pal, this particular suit does look ugly. There is so far, not a skerrick of evidence to warrant the extreme measures requested. Much here is racking over a few bits and pieces and reading them in the light of past ANI records. Best wishes for your work. I do hope, sometime in the future, wiser minds prevail to secure working conditions that allow present and future editors to stop frigging about with personal battles, and enjoy working here, instead of feeling as though they were colleagues of Tantalus and Sisyphus. You, and many others, have more stoicism than I can afford to muster. If I stayed on in I/P, I'd only be lynched for being tempted into exclaiming 'fuck!' with a more colloquial colour than the exquisite G-Dett allows. Regards Nishidani (talk) 20:41, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

(outdent)Avi, I have a great deal of respect for your editing and am a little taken aback by this, but would genuinely reconsider my position if you were to provide some concrete evidence of bannable offenses in PR’s work for me to look over. I would be especially impressed by evidence supporting the claim that (a) what he does is out of the ordinary on I/P pages, and (b) that his contributions cannot be productively modified and absorbed by editors keener on collaboration than score-settling.

I wonder if meanwhile you might also consider the possibility that mentorship has had negative consequences for PR. There are a lot of passionate and, shall we say, colorful characters on I/P pages; he doesn’t strike me as out of the ordinary on that score. He was treated with malice and bad faith in many of his early encounters with relatively powerful editors on Misplaced Pages, and these encounters left a taint on him for editors only glancingly familiar with the background. His editing and etiquette could certainly stand some improvement, so the case for mentorship seemed to make sense, but insofar as it has tended to codify an undeserved taint, he understandably chafes at it, perhaps resulting in worse behavior.--G-Dett (talk) 17:53, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

G-Dett, I will try and respond with instances for you, but via e-mail to spare all involved, within the next couple of days, and if I do not, please remind me. Thank you. -- Avi (talk) 19:39, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

G-Dett, I've been gone for a while, but if the ordinary for IP pages is what I'm seeing here, then the ordinary needs putting to rights. There is no excuse for bad behavior, from anybody. If the behavior in this area has deteriorated so badly, I suggest that you guys consider moveing up the dispute resolution chain and go to arbcom. —— nixeagle 18:05, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

Oppose ban. PR's attitude toward editing may not be ideal, but we need to put his behavior into context. Let me give my experience with editing some of the Israel/Palestine articles. I need to give some details, so I can't be brief.

I was involved in editing the Hamas and Hezbollah articles until last year but I left because of the attitude of the editors, which is very confrontational. Almost everyone sees editing these article as a game to get as much of their POV included in the articles, the rules of the games are the wiki rules such as the one on reliable sources which can be bent almost as far as you like. I did briefly edit the Hezbollah article this year in March when I saw a very strange statement, saying that Hezbollah has admitted being responsible for the terrorist attacks in Argentina, in that article that every regular editor should know was wrong (if true that would be breaking news, so you wouldn't expect it to read about it somewhere burried in an article on court proceedings).

To my horror it was GHCool who had edited in the sentence. Although GHCool and I had disagreed on many things, I did have the feeling that GhCool was more reasonable than most other editors. I argued a bit with GHCool about that edit, but GHCool told me that the edit was allowed (quoted from a reliable source). I was disappointed about this attitude and I decided never to return to these articles as that is clearly a waste of time if even the best editors are behaving in this way.

Now, I actually decided to stop editing these aticles a bit earlier after two frustrating incidents last year. On the Hamas page I tried to find a compromize on a sentence saying that "Hamas is best known for suicide attacks". This sentence is problematic because the source isn't clear about how this was determined to be the case, it is just the opinion of the author and after some time passes and the suicide attacks become more of a thing of the past. Who knows, perhaps Hamas is now "best known for being in power in Gaza"?

So, I tried to argue that it would be better to write a sentence that conveys a hard fact, like "Hamas is responsible for suicide bombings against Israel". There are plenty of sources that back this up and it will remain a fact forever, no matter what happens in the future. So, you don't have the problem that the fact changes while the sources are lagging behind.

To my horror, most of the pro-Israeli editors opposed my move. Only Avi supported me. Humus Sapiens accused me of vandalism when I reverted back to my version, because I was removing "sourced information" (of course my version was sourced as well). Anyway, at first it wasn't clear why my stronger statement was not welcome in the article. Later it became clear to me what was really going on. Both sides are playing a game in which they want to have as much freedom to use sources to edit in dubious statements. So, if such statements get removed in favor of hard facts it constrains the freedoms of the editors, and they don't like that.

The final straw for me was when finding a compromize on the Hezbollah article by me was considered to be edit warring and I was refereed to this ANI board. I as not banned, but I was asked to stop behaving in that way by SlimVirgin. What was I guilty of? Well, some editor (forgot his name, he was not a regular on the Hezbollah page) included some facts on the Hezbollah page. Nothing wrong with that, but it was all under a new section called "Terrorism". Although terrorism is a "word to avoid", we can certainly call an acts of terror "terrorism". But the section contained more than terror acts alone. So, I made some changes, but I did keep all the facts that were edited in (I made a new section in which I mentioned the things that are not, by definition, terrorism).

But this is considered to be "edit warring", "violation of 3RR because of multiple complex partial reverts" etc. etc. Well, I guess that if one sees editing through the narrow window of defending/attacking Hezbollah, then that may well be the case, but then I'm not going to be involved anymore. So, I left, only to briefly return on March this year.

So, it should be clear that my opinion about the way the Israel/Palestine articles are edited is very negative. The fact that PR is being attacked by other involved editors who, with the exception of a few, are not any better themselves speaks volumes. The problem with these articles is huge. There are many Admins with problematic behavior as well, so the entire Palestine/Israel sector of wikipedia is a big corrupt mess that has to be sorted out. But banning PR will do noting to improve the situation, as that would be similar to Al Capone tipping off the FBI about rival mafiosi to improve his strategic position. Count Iblis (talk) 23:20, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

Absolutely no effing way, we all know how this discussion goes: Those on the other side of the fence to PR cry bloody murder, and bring up his block log (take a look at it: The first few are completely over the top, and were placed by involved admins; after that, there are a number associated with the ArbCom case). They'll bring up the ArbCom case, which I urge everyone to read: It was not a case of PR coming oh-so-close to being banned; he was accused of something he clearly didn't do. Jayjg's and Ryan's actions in and around that case can be described as nothing short of disgraceful.

A number of PR's supporters will claim that PR has never done a single thing wrong, and will defend his actions to the hilt.

A few moderates will point out that PR is far from perfect, but that anything he does wrong can be sorted out with blocks.

This is never going to be anything but a partisan debate, and is yet another attempt to get rid of a thorn in the side of some editors that happen to have a different (just as extreme) POV. -- Mark Chovain 01:12, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

As I have said above, and I will say again here, I propose that those involved consider making an ARBCOM case on this article if the editing is really as negative as you guys imply it is. However I must point out that PR is a role account (this is admitted back 6 months ago at the initial community ban thingie. I've been gone so long I don't recall exactly when that was :S ), and not the main account of the editor. If that means anything at this point I'm not sure. However I'm dismayed to see that this much dispute and namecalling is the norm for this area of the encyclopedia :( —— nixeagle 01:31, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

PR commented on the SPA thing here. -- Mark Chovain 01:49, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

For those opposing further admin action, would you suggest that PR be placed with a different mentor than Ryan, or that the mentorship requirement be dropped? Perhaps you could clarify or, better yet, make a cogent counter-proposal, since the current arrangement with Ryan seems to have run its course. Thanks. HG | Talk 04:24, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

I think nixeagle's suggestion is right from the dispute resolution side of things (take it to RfArb). As for mentorship, I think this thread kind of puts a bit of a hole in the current arrangement. IMO, PR seems to work much better with a mentor, so I think it'd be worth finding another. That said, I think he should be able to keep editing in the meantime, perhaps with a 1RR restriction until a mentor can be found? -- Mark Chovain 06:21, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

Taekwondo

Hi, I'd filed an incident report last week regarding several months' of arguments and disruptions at the Taekwondo page, but I see it was archived (though it's still marked as unresolved and needing attention). I was just wondering what the status of this is, or if there's something I need to do? Someone mentioned ArbCom in the article — is this the suggested next step? I'm not familiar with that process, I'm afraid. Could someone give me guidance as to how to proceed?

In case it's needed, here's a recap in the briefest of nutshells: The issue we're having is a single editor (User:JJL) who favors advancing one opinion of taekwondo's origin above the others. The page's history section current presents the theories neutrally and provides various sources for each. JJL's chief assertion is that sources supporting opposing theories fail to meet WP:RS, and months of debate and appeals to accept consensus and compromise have had no effect. Help is greatly appreciated! Thanks, Huwmanbeing ☀★ 02:39, 3 August 2008 (UTC)

Before ArbCom, you should try Misplaced Pages:Requests for comment. —David Eppstein (talk) 02:40, 3 August 2008 (UTC)

Typically, ArbCom does not decide on content. Consider if the opposing theories are mentioned by reliable sources. The RS don't have to agree that they are valid, only to report it. For example, at one time, the Earth was thought to be flat. Mention that current reliable sources report that some believed the Earth was flat is suitable for Misplaced Pages. Spevw (talk) 21:17, 3 August 2008 (UTC)

Special:Contributions/HouseOfScandal

I have no reason to doubt the good faith or competence of this editor, and definitely do not wish to imply any intentional wrongdoing here, but I am a little concerned by the mass creation of redirects in this contribution history. Can an admin take a look at this please? I don't know if this is good practice or not - to create so many redirects - but I have the feeling that it is not. Setwisohi (talk) 08:59, 3 August 2008 (UTC)

• After exploring Setwisohi's concerns, please investigate this editor's placement of Speedy Delete tags on Nevins Farm and Equine Center and David C. Nevins and, if appropriate, council this editor on their proper use. Thanks. - House of Scandal (talk) 09:21, 3 August 2008 (UTC)
  • Oh dear, and then please review which editor has turned this a little nasty. And, then perhaps council HouseOfScandal on good faith etc.. Setwisohi (talk) 09:27, 3 August 2008 (UTC)

If it can be established in the article how or why all of them should redirect to one specific article, then they stay (as redirects are cheap). Also, these pages are not speedy applicable. I'd recommend you remove them and take it to AfD (but only if you are certain they should be deleted). Synergy 09:30, 3 August 2008 (UTC)

• Thanks for the input Synergy. Your response and the original editors obvious and genuine indignation convince me to remove the tags. I still dont like the very many immediate redirects however. Setwisohi (talk) 09:33, 3 August 2008 (UTC)

Its standard to create them, so long as they are possible search terms. If one article has several likely search terms, its inevitable that they will all redirect there. Also, fyi, these types of reports should go to AN/I and not to the general noticeboard. Synergy 09:37, 3 August 2008 (UTC)

Lucyintheskywithdada: Indef blocked user's trolling and revenge

Lucyintheskywithdada (talk · contribs) has been indef blocked by his abusive sockpuppetry, vandalism, trolling, countless block evasions, propaganda approach, personal attacks, racist attacks, etc. This user's wrongdoings were spotted and reported by me with WP:RFCU, WP:AN3, WP:ANI, so it is so natural for the troll to have a deep grudge against me. The user has done nothing but harm to Misplaced Pages. His abusive sockpuppetries have been discovered more than 3 times. (2 cases were reported by me) The user falsely accused me to ANI as gaming the system and here as well. I think range block should be upon to some of IP addresses designated to NTT Plala that the lucy uses. "Banning indefinitely the troll would be appropriate in order.--11:33, 3 August 2008 (UTC)

Lucyintheskywithdada spread this personl/racist attacks against me over to multiple users whom he think would likely side his malicious revenge. Per Misplaced Pages:BAN#Enforcement_by_reverting_edits and WP:NPA, I removed such attacks from the users' talk page. Regretfully, among such users, Carl Daniels (talk · contribs) reverts to keep such material . I requested him to remove it, however he refuses. He even cites that I have to follow a certain official rule that I've never heard of before., and even says to support the banned user's scheme.. I think the user does not understand the policy. --Caspian blue (talk) 13:27, 3 August 2008 (UTC)

Lucyintheskywithdada is blocked, not banned, as far as I can tell. So WP:BAN or parts of it don't apply here. I'm of the opinion this isn't worth edit warring over, so I'd suggest you just ignore it and let the user have what they want on their own userpages. Unless they file something against you, of course. I've taken no action, because I'm not sure what should be done here. Cheers. lifebaka (talk - contribs) 14:37, 3 August 2008 (UTC)

I'm asking to remove the personal attack message on User talk:Carl Daniels that he wants to keep. Also, I think baning Lucy would be appropriate for his countless block evasions and disruptions. --Caspian blue (talk) 14:41, 3 August 2008 (UTC)

I have redacted the content provided by Lucyintheskywithdada, and explained my reasons for doing so to the editor. I have also removed Caspian blue's later comments on Carl Daniels talkpage so to help cool matters, and I would urge Cb to realise that CD did not choose to have the material initially posted on their talkpage and to AGF why they felt it should remain. LessHeard vanU (talk) 15:23, 3 August 2008 (UTC)

I receive this threat from Carl Daniels. He does not seem to regard the policy of WP:NPA.--15:38, 3 August 2008 (UTC)

• Misplaced Pages:Requests for checkuser/Case/Yuan.C.Lee would be relevant references for understanding of why Carl Daniels supports such attacks on me.--Caspian blue (talk) 15:44, 3 August 2008 (UTC)

• I don't have the patience to go through that listing - are there any accounts you have previously been in dispute with, or are you simply assuming that since they may be a sock then they will "dislike" you and side with Lucyintheskywithdada? I would really suggest you disengage interacting with Carl Daniels directly, and report any further actions by that account here. While you may be the injured party, it is unseemly that you keep rushing headlong into these disputes. I would comment that I have warned CD regarding attacks on you, so please just report any infraction. LessHeard vanU (talk) 16:31, 3 August 2008 (UTC)

Thank you for your time and consideration. According to the above RFCU, Carl Daniels was likely a sock of another indef.blocked user, Yuan.C.Lee (talk · contribs) associated with 2channel, Japanese biggest forum. However, I did not file a WP:SSP on him because at that time, too many sock/meat puppeters emerged on Misplaced Pages. Recently Comfort women, many sockpuppeters including Lucy had (or have) appeared to push their POV. After they were blocked by RFCU results, a new user appeared to point at me "you must learn yourself", so I asked a Checkuser who has looked into such cases a lot and confirm that it is likely Carl Daniels. So I guess Lucy or related editors try to turn attention by admins to me to prevent from filing SSP or RFCU or engaging editing articles that they care.--Caspian blue (talk) 16:45, 3 August 2008 (UTC)

I hope that the recent intervention of another admin on Carl Daniels talkpage will end this current matter. In the meantime I would again urge you not to interact directly with anyone you feel is pushing POV, but use the appropriate mechanisms for content disputes, possible socking, personal attacks and the like. If you can distance yourself from getting personally involved in the disputed content and deal with it editorially you will likely get better results both individually and as an editor. LessHeard vanU (talk) 21:03, 3 August 2008 (UTC)

Trolls and sockpuppeters do not have "normal" ways of thinking unlike other ordinary editors do, so in their mind, they're unfortunately caught up and blocked by reports of SSP, RFCU, ANI etc. If you have been watched or monitored by a lot editors from off-wiki for a log time like The Truman Show, and follow and harass you, how would you feel? The 2channel people enjoy watching and ridiculing me today's show as referring to me as a "hwabyeong patient". Besides, trolls like Lucy feeds them to make disruptive Wikepedia. If there is anyone who can be calm at such repeated attacks, I would call him or her "a sage". --Caspian blue (talk) 21:49, 3 August 2008 (UTC)

lucy evades his block sanction again with this sock NTT Plala IP, 118.16.164.46 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log). The user enjoy spending his time for wikistalking me and making racist/personal attacks. Range-block would be really necessary.--Caspian blue (talk) 05:26, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

Jiuguang Wang

Jiuguang continues to attack and harass Julie Dancer by proxy on the grounds of his difference with the article she wrote in the Wikia which uses logic to define, support and defend the existence of God. I agree that some Jews may be offended by her personal conclusion that Jesus Christ is God but she is only claiming that as the personal basis of her religion and not implying that anyone else does not have the right to believe whatever they choose. In the case of Jiuguang he is not Jewish and was born in Beijing, raised as an atheist, indoctrinated as a Communist, train from a very early age on computers and sent to the Atlanta at age 12, where he eventually entered Georgia Tech where he is now a robotics student. His statement that he disagrees with Julie Dancer's article in the Wikia makes his subsequent nomination for deletion of her Optimal classification article in the Misplaced Pages a personal attack and his subsequent deletions of her links between her article in the Wikibooks and references in the Misplaced Pages and act of stalking and harassment against her. The Misplaced Pages is not above reproach and such actions are quickly loosing the favor of the men and women who have accommodated or tolerated its existence from the beginning. Bight the hand of the powers that allow the wikipedia not to pay taxes and you may find yourselves paying dues. His deletion of her article, in light of his refusal to read the primary reference, is tantamount to an entomologist seeing a new bug in the forest he had never seen before and squishing it into the ground for that reason. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.100.1.50 (talk) 12:14, 3 August 2008 (UTC) |}

This is likely User:Julie Dancer evading her indefinate block. No one else ever said that AfD was a personal attack against her. I'd also like to note that the threat above is not likely to induce rational discussion and more likely just to get you blocked. Cheers. lifebaka (talk - contribs) 14:27, 3 August 2008 (UTC)

IP blocked for 12 hours by Nandesuka. Takin' a look at , this is unquestionably a sock. lifebaka (talk - contribs) 14:30, 3 August 2008 (UTC)

Fully protected the talk page. seicer | talk | contribs 16:52, 3 August 2008 (UTC)

User:Ibtikari -> Promoting Business_Promoting_Business-2008-08-03T13:23:00.000Z">

as this
http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=User:Ibtikari&diff=229579408&oldid=229577531

Tell what to do... —Preceding unsigned comment added by DualHelix (talk • contribs) 13:23, 3 August 2008 (UTC)_Promoting_Business"> _Promoting_Business">

• I nuked the user page. You can use {{db-spam}} for this. Guy (Help!) 14:00, 3 August 2008 (UTC)

Ignorance of Misplaced Pages rules, slanderous and diffamatory statements

Ignorance of Misplaced Pages rules, slanderous and diffamatory statements, includig by admins ignoring the matter and blocking me without any justification, whereas I request to apply the Digwuren restriction to the User:Biruitorul... Please explain whether the below mentioned is in acordance with Misplaced Pages rules. I do not see any point of editing or contributing to Misplaced Pages, when users like User:Biruitorul under cover of contributing to some other articles, clearly ignore basic written well established Misplaced Pages rules while editing most articles related to Moldova, expressing uncovered racism while saying that Moldavian nation, language, country, history, etc. do not exist and it is all Romanian anyaway, including basic unwritten civility rules, backed by ignorant or the "would be" ignorant admins, violating the very same rules they are expected to enforce, this namely following Biruitorul's backstage discussion with the admin.

How technically possiby could I hve been blocked by filing a request to enforce the Digwuren arbitration restriction against another user? Is Misplaced Pages really turning into a POV supported absurdity? Above you will find the detailed diffs.

Just to clarify, the tone used is different (sometimes), but the diffamatory and slandering accusations, their posting all over where it is completely irrelevant, moving removing, deleting pages as I am writing them - all of this brings to the exactly the same result. I think it is totally probable that User:Bonaparte and User:Biruitorul are one and the same person (Biruotorul means "Winner" in Moldavian language).--Moldopodo 19:18, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

Can you make your point in under half a page, I am not reading all of that. Chillum 18:45, 3 August 2008 (UTC)

I agree with Chillum. If possible, summarise it. D.M.N. (talk) 18:48, 3 August 2008 (UTC)

Is this the same issue discussed here: ? Chillum 18:53, 3 August 2008 (UTC)

Okay, let me put is simply. People pointing out your behavior is not slanderous, diffamatory, or even defamatory. It is a common reaction. Chillum 19:01, 3 August 2008 (UTC)

• First of all thank you for finding a way to put it nicely in a hat. Secondly, yes, please, you have to read all of this as it namely explains you why the described statements and actions violate Misplaced Pages policies and qualify as slander and defamation. Blindly stating People pointing out your behavior is not slanderous, diffamatory, or even defamatory. It is a common reaction - has not much value, because there is not one diff proving what you say, and to the contrary, tons of diffs provided by me stating exactly the contrary.--Moldopodo 19:40, 3 August 2008 (UTC)

• Ask Mikka, he can spot a Bonaparte sock at fifty paces. Guy (Help!) 19:43, 3 August 2008 (UTC)

In fact there are much more of other points in my notice, sockpupetting suspicion being only one of them.--Moldopodo 20:19, 3 August 2008 (UTC)

Well Moldopodo perhaps somebody will come to a different conclusion than me. Chillum 19:46, 3 August 2008 (UTC)

One can only come to a conclusion after checking the evidence, and evidence I have presented abundantly. When someone says first "I am not reading this", but then, nevertheless, draws the conclusion "it's a common reaction" (slander, defamation, violation of Misplaced Pages policies and procedures - is this a common reaction?) - how much weigth to you give to words of such a person?--Moldopodo 20:19, 3 August 2008 (UTC)

You will notice that some time passed between those posts. I did read through the passages you quoted, and all I saw was criticism directed at your behavior. Chillum 20:30, 3 August 2008 (UTC)

Thank you very much for reading this all through. "Criticism" - is certainly a strange conclusion in my mind, in light of the evidences and diffs I have presented. May be you could indicate me one diff where this "criticism" is expressed? I guess we read different definitions of what criticism and what lies, slander and defamation are.--Moldopodo 20:37, 3 August 2008 (UTC)

Like I said, perhaps somebody will come to a different conclusion than me. Chillum 20:38, 3 August 2008 (UTC)

Hopefully. I wish you were there with your judgement when I was blocked for calling obvious repetitive disruptive edits as wicked. I am sure you would have qualified it as criticism, wouldn't you?--Moldopodo 23:39, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

As I asked the last time Moldopodo filed one of these frivolous reports linking me with Bonaparte and accusing me of all manner of crimes: where's the beef? -- Biruitorul 04:36, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

The answers are all in the diffs I have provided - which all show how you openly lie about yor actions, how you started moving and removing pages, edit warring, spreading slanderous statements and defamation in my regard. It's all there. Just click on "show more" up above.--Moldopodo 23:39, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

Riiiiiiight. Speaking of the diffs you hold so sacred: this and this aren't very helpful to your cause, and neither is the above remark accusing me of being an "open liar", "slanderer" and "defamer". Especially considering that you're on your last warning, you really shouldn't be making these sorts of distortions, assumptions of bad faith and quasi-legal threats. Biruitorul 00:38, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

User:House1090

House1090 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log) just asked about being allowed back. Relevant reading is at Misplaced Pages:Administrators'_noticeboard/Archive119#Silly_people and Misplaced Pages:Requests for checkuser/Case/Redspork Friend001. If he is allowed back it should be only after he agrees not to creat any more socks, especially attempts to frame other users and an apology to Redspork02. CambridgeBayWeather Have a gorilla 23:53, 3 August 2008 (UTC)

I'm not inclined to letting back. A few days ago he said through another sock he wasn't the sockmaster Alison had checkusered him as. He's probably only 9 or 10. He's not ready to contribute productively to the encyclopedia at this time. Amerique 00:59, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

What've you got against 9 year olds? 86.29.138.203 (talk) 01:27, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

I don't have anything against 9 year olds. I said that I thought he was that young because, except when he was actively socking to attempt to frame Redspork02, he generally doesn't seem to have a handle on what he's doing here. (Like below, he didn't seem to think we would know he was lying because of the checkuser.) If there are 9 year olds editing that aren't causing the problems House1090 accounts generally do, just with copyright plagiarism, more power to them. House litters the encyclopedia with horribly bad English when he is not plagiarizing, moves regional and national article namespaces to idiosyncratic spellings, and makes false accusations of vandalism against people who edit his preferred versions. However old he is, he is not ready now. Amerique 09:22, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

People please I am not 9 or 10 and Amerique I said that because I still wanted to edit and you dont let me. If you guys give me another chance then you will see If I do something bad again you can warn me and the reblock me and I will give. Please give me one more chance, I promise I wont let you dowm User:House1090 71.110.223.8 (talk) 01:34, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

I don't support unbanning this user. Daniel (talk) 01:58, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

I am not convinced either, and do we really need nine-year-olds editing Misplaced Pages to this extent? There were countless copyright violations, abusive sockpuppetry, and some pretty lame unblock requests. seicer | talk | contribs 02:19, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

To clarify to people reading this thread after the fact, I think I speak for the Misplaced Pages community as a whole when I say we have nothing against nine-year-olds themselves, but editing a project like this generally requires a decent level of maturity and responsibility that most younger children don't yet have. Many of our vandals are school kids goofing off in class. On the other side, certain users have displayed great responsibility and have been given positions of trust at a much younger age than the average. Since Misplaced Pages is both a free-content and highly visible site, issues such as copyright and even lesser matters such as vandalism can have a wide and powerful impact, and users are expected to handle themselves with maturity.

That said, if you're not that young, more's to you, but unless you demonstrate the responsibility we expect of all of our users to follow our policies, then you're not going to be unblocked. I don't feel certain you understand why you were blocked, and that's critical to giving you the second chance you desire. Hersfold non-admin 03:59, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

Age has nothing to do with maturity. There are plenty of college students I don't think are mature enough to use this site properly. Any sockpuppeter needs to agree not to create socks in order to return. If he doesn't understand what he needs to do, regardless of age, there's no reason to let him back. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 06:16, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

Ok I am not 9 or 10 and I do not want to make any more sock's thats why I asked CambridgeBayWeather to give me another chance is in that a sign of maturity, please give me one more chance, User:House1090 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.110.203.151 (talk) 15:08, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

I am here to apoligze to every one I did not mean to become a sock puppet master, but I wanted to edit. I just want one more chance please unblock me as ] I did not want this to happen, please let me back. I will no loger frame users or create any more sock puppets, please User:House1090 (I will make a special one to User:Redspork02)71.110.203.151 (talk) 15:52, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

How about instead of spamming my talk page here, you log in and post on the not protected User:House1090 asking to be unblocked? This changing IP address to talk with you is part of the problem, so just go there and ask like someone more mature than this. Keep on using IP addresses to get around being blocked (even if to request no longer being blocked) and no one will unblock you. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 17:27, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

There is now a official templated unblock request at User talk:House1090. I'll leave it someone else to consider but I'll put my view this way. When you are in trouble for evading your block, evading your block, by using changing IP addresses, to request a lift of the block isn't going to be particularly effective. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 18:00, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

• Leave blocked. To clarify above, my statement previously was to the effect that age has nothing to do with maturity. 9/10-year olds can be very mature for their age, and as stated, older users can act like children. I believe this case is the latter, with the blatant block evasion and forum shopping. I definitely don't think this user fully understands why they were blocked, and can't be trusted to edit this site responsibly. Hersfold 22:00, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

Concur. I probably shouldn't have said he was probably 9 or 10. His real age has nothing to do with it. My apologies to anyone of that age editing capably who might have been offended. Amerique 23:07, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

zomg age bias!11 --MZMcBride (talk) 23:09, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

Why? cant I have another chance I have apologized to everyone I am truly sorry. If I wanted to continue being a sockpuppeter, I would of just created another one but I want to start new as User:House1090, I beg to give me one more chance please! User:House1090 71.110.203.151 (talk) 23:31, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

Didn't you ask for one more chance here last year? I see, what, 38 socks after that listed here and here, many of which were disruptive. It seems you had a sock active just a few days ago. I don't think you understand our guidelines and policies; perhaps sitting out a bit to mature would help. Kuru 00:36, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

I concur with leaving House blocked after cleaning up messes left by him for eight months. His apologies are quickly followed up by the same kinds of edits by sockpuppets. He falsely accused User:Haha169 and I of edit warring and vandalism as recently as last week. Misplaced Pages is not the right place for House at this time. Alanraywiki (talk) 04:50, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

Ethnic and cultural conflicts noticeboard

How many of you watchlist or otherwise monitor WP:CCN? It doesn't seem particularly active....--The Fat Man Who Never Came Back (talk) 04:06, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

I didn't know it existed. We have too many damn noticeboards again...John Reaves 04:25, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

Funny... that's what I said, as I gently trolled the noticeboard's creator. But now, rather hypocritically, I decided to post to said noticeboard and noticed it hasn't been active for more than a week and that the last query posted to that forum was completely ignored (or at least not responded to on the board itself).--The Fat Man Who Never Came Back (talk) 04:30, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

Never heard of it either, but I'm not surprised. It seems even some WikiProjects have their own noticeboards these days... - auburnpilot talk 05:06, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

When the student is ready, the master will appear. SHEFFIELDSTEEL 18:50, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

Going on Wikibreak; somebody want to take over my watchlist?

Well, okay, not the whole thing, but there are a few places where I flatter myself to believe that my absence may cause some difficulties, and if another admin or two would keep an eye on them for the rest of the month, it would help me sleep easier:

• Mountain Pointe High School - for reasons I don't understand, somebody keeps making this edit to the article. I was assuming good faith until they fabricated a source, and now I'm blocking on sight (and tagging as sockpuppets of User:Keeweeman-ape). Article's currently semi-protected until August 10.
• Ctrl+Alt+Del - there's debate going on here about what to include in the "criticism" section. I'm staying out of it, because I lack even the vaguest understanding of the subject matter, but periodically somebody will add in a vicious BLP violation about the comic's creator. Article is currently semi-protected until August 25.
• Shivraj Patil - an IP has recently been inserting BLP violations here (on the premis that they're cited, which they are, but they're cited to opinion pieces and presenting these opinions as fact is obviously not okay).
• Marc Ravalomanana - somebody keeps inseting information suggesting that the subject is over-eager to close Madagascar's ports (at least, I think that's the insinuation - it's not quite clear).
• Rick Reilly - this person seems to have a lot of enemies for a sportswriter, with the enemies in question occupying themselves by inserting imagined "controversies" into the article.
• Tinnitus - people keep making uncited additions to the list of sufferers, and also occasionally insert quackish theories about its causes.

I'd really appreciate the help on this. Otherwise, see you all in September, when you can fill me in on the latest developments in the Cla-FM-SV arb case (assuming that the latest developments at that point don't still date to early July). Sarcasticidealist (talk) 07:34, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

"Developments in the Cla-FM-SV case" - bahahaha. You really are well named :) I've watchlisted all the articles you listed; give me a poke when you get back, and have a great break. Neıl ☄ 09:41, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

Hey! can we do that? I can sure use some help on a few watched articles of my won. Can you help me too please? Please keep an eye on Valley of Peace initiative and also Titanic alternative theories. Appreciate your help, ok? thanks. by the way, the first article is 99% stable; I just don't know if anyone else is watching it right now. thanks. --Steve, Sm8900 (talk) 14:29, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

I don't see any reason why we can't! I've watchlisted your two, too, Steve. My watchlist has now doubled in size from yesterday, and stands at a muscular 14 pages. Neıl ☄ 16:09, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

71.125.91.43

Please, check his edits. He wrote nonsense about Václav Benda and he made many small changes in the same time. If this not the right place where I should write my request, move it to the right place. --Dezidor (talk) 10:26, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

Subtle changes, all of things difficult to check, all plausible. But since two of them were clearly misinformation, I reverted the lot. Sadly, the misinformation had been there since May. A lot of secret government dossiers and mid-term papers are going to be a bit wrong. ➨ REDVERS is so happy in malice 10:51, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

Help Please

I've been reverting vandalism for the IP 125.175.214.29, and finally posted him/her on the Admin intervention page. Unfortunatly, I don't think anyone is doing blocks currently, so I'm asking for someone to check him out...and possibly block the IP.

L337*P4wn 11:31, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

That's not vandalism, the IP is actually using very detailed edit summaries, and when they tried to discuss it with you on your talk page, you removed their message with "rvv". If you disagree with their removal of trivia sections that have been tagged for more than 9 months, then discuss it with them. If they refuse to discuss it, then we have a problem. But right now, you're just blindly reverting everything they do. --barneca (talk) 11:43, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

Ahhh. So the IP actually only has one count of vandalism. Not four. Thank you for telling me of my mistake.

L337*P4wn 11:48, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

Yes, and I'm really pretty sure that one "vandalism" was just a mistake; in one instance they blanked a large portion of the page, and when ClueBot reverted them, the second time they just removed the trivia section. --barneca (talk) 11:51, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

Yeah. I feel horrible now! I've just reverted helpful edits. L337*P4wn 11:58, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

Semi-protected Today's Featured Article

Just wanted to let you guys know that I semi-protected TFA for one hour. Feel free to unprotect if you think my actions were unjustified. If not, can someone remove the template when the protection expires? Thanks, J.delanoy_adds 16:30, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

...and reinstating move-protection would probably not be a bad idea either. J.delanoy_adds 16:32, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

I'm of the opinion that TFA should always be semi-protected, so obviously I approve :-) Tan ǀ 39 16:33, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

FYI, if you protect TFA, don't set an expiration time. First, it doesn't give the vandals a specific time target to wait for; second, you can't accidently lose move protection. I've unprotected, as time was almost up. --barneca (talk) 17:25, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

I just re-protected it, as he/they came back. Anyone can unprotect whenever they think it wise. --barneca (talk) 19:57, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

Vandalisation of Arjun MBT thread

The Arjun MBT thread has been vandalized by multiple users. The Quality B article has been compromised.Chanakyathegreat (talk) 17:22, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

Could you be more specific, please? Links to articles and diffs are always useful. Cheers. lifebaka++ 19:03, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

Spam?

Are these contributions considered spam? I'm leaning towards, "yes." 216.163.255.1 (talk) 17:39, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

I'm not thinking it's spam, per se, but it's certainly disruptive and not terribly useful. Warning user again. lifebaka++ 17:53, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

Nevermind, Jauerback added {{uw-spam3}}, which was what I was going to do. I'll keep an eye on the user, though. lifebaka++ 17:55, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

I just stumbled across this thread from this user's talk page. What a pain. All the edits should be reverted. I'll keep an eye out, too. Jauerback/_dude. 18:07, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

I deleted all of the "references" as it was all link spam. Various other accounts were involved in the spamming:

• 75.163.239.101 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• 75.163.236.224 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• Conrad.pramboeck (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Using the link search, I got all of them. -- Gogo Dodo (talk) 21:11, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

Backlog at WP:UAA

Thought I might put out there that there is a backlog at WP:UAA. Bstone (talk) 19:32, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

Gotcha'. Goin' to work on it. lifebaka++ 19:44, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

That was a kinda' lame backlog. Only three names were there. And none of them terribly serious, either. Anyway, done. Cheers. lifebaka++ 19:53, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

In time, that kind of backlog will become your best friend :) Keegan 05:48, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

template:ImageUpload

What is up with {{ImageUpload}}—it seems to be linked from a lot of pages and seems to have a recursive loop, but no history to revert to? G.A.S 20:19, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

It included itself twice. Besides that, it was a test page, so I deleted it. Cheers. lifebaka++ 20:29, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

I'm not sure what's up the links, but probably they can be removed. {{ImageUpload}} is probably a useful thing to have, but all the versions of it (all three, one by me cleaning it up) have been crap thus far. There might've been instructions put in to use it at WP:UPI or something for a while, but it doesn't seem to be usefully used on any of them. Cheers. lifebaka++ 20:35, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

I have removed the links. It seems to me that this template is used on Commons as well, but is a blank protected page (Protected "Template:ImageUpload": Used by MediaWiki:UploadForm.js ). It might be that this page is used for the same purpose here; in which case it might be a good idea to recreate here as a blank protected page; as it is transcluded onto the image namespace pages that are recreated here for use on the main page. G.A.S 09:24, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

The Southern Avenger

More eyes would probably be useful at this festival of sockpuppetry; the votestacking, off-wiki canvassing and accusations are already starting to fly and it's been live less than 24 hours. – iridescent 22:12, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

Just a note, but this is also at ANI. Cheers. lifebaka++ 22:23, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

The following was moved from ANI:

CANVASSing

Hi. There seems to be a bit of an off-wiki canvassing situation at this AfD. See here. (The top comment on the journal, as well as containing a direct link to the AfD, says, "The Southern Avenger article in wikipedia is being disputed for deletion for questions of notability. Please vote for no deletion.") I wouldn't be surprised, given the amount of SPA participation, if canvassing had taken place elsewhere, too. I tagged the AfD {{notaballot}} and marked the {{spa}} contributors (but assumed good faith on those who just seem to have quite suddenly stumbled upon this AfD after a period of inactivity.) Is there something else that should be done? Or could be? This is a new one on me! --Moonriddengirl 22:01, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

Tried to post a reply on the blog, to discourage people from !voting because of that, but it was caught by a spam filter on the comments. No idea what's with that. Still, with luck it'll go up and SPAs will curb, though I wouldn't count on it. Maybe just pointing them at WP:ATA would help, so they at least make valid arguments. Cheers. lifebaka++ 22:14, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

everything above this post, and below the previous "small" post, was moved over from ANI Keeper ǀ 76 22:45, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Arbitration_Committee_Elections_December_2008

We're 4 months out from these elections, and the wiki pages have been unprotected to facilitate discussion etc. - I think it'd be great if everyone with time, energy, and particularly experience, could take a look, and help organise stuff well in advance.... cheers, Privatemusings (talk) 01:39, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

Fraternity (disambiguation) and Fraternity

I have read Misplaced Pages:MOSDAB, and I understand that a disambiguation page should be only links, and any general subject content should be in an article on that name alone. I've tried to put that in effect, and I've been 3RR'd by User:The Fat Man Who Never Came Back. The page "Fraternity" was a mix, a brief general background, and then a slew of redirect links. There already was a "Fraternity (disambiguation)" page which goes back to 2006, but which was made into a redirect page to "Fraternity". I moved the disambiguation links to this page, (which is where they belong bu Misplaced Pages policy), and left the general content on the "fraternity" page. This set User:The Fat Man Who Never Came Back into a fury of revert edits. I am only trying to follow policy here, and do so in a way that solves ongoing issues. This other editor is being a little difficult. Comments? Help? Intervention? Anything?129.133.124.199 (talk) 01:46, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

Things are very under control. We are (or at least I am) in the midst of a calm discussion on Talk:Fraternity; feel free to join in. You may also feel free to block me for violating 3RR (It's past my bedtime anyway)--but a quick examination of the anon IP's well-meaning cut-and-paste moves will reveal why repeated reversion was necessary. Just no templates on my talk page, please.--The Fat Man Who Never Came Back (talk) 02:03, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

Both editors seem to have gone past 3RR. Since the dispute is heading toward settlement, I suggest that no sanctions be imposed. The Fat Man is willing to accept the IP's solution if the correct procedure for article splitting is followed. I'm marking this as resolved. EdJohnston (talk) 03:54, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

ABN AMRO or ABN Amro?

Even though the official name of this financial instition is ABN AMRO in all-capital letters, the article has been renamed ABN Amro. Past and present subsidiaries are also being affected by this editing such as LaSalle Bank. Please investigate. Steelbeard1 (talk) 10:38, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

It seems that this move and the related naming question have been and are still being discussed at the article's talk page. If consensus emerges between interested editors to move it back, that can be done, but right now I don't see what else here is to investigate or what other administrative assistance is required. --Tikiwont (talk) 10:57, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

Content disputes are resolved by using the article talk page to gain consensus, not by trying to get admins to force a consensus to your preferred option. Minkythecat (talk) 11:20, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

There's no consensus there for the move in the first place, just people waving a disputed section of the MoS as if it trumps all. The company name is ABM AMRO according to the kamer van koophandel, but what a company calls itself and what the government calls it and what the regulator calls it are as nothing to the mighty MoS and its "no capitals" rule. ➨ REDVERS in a car - no brakes? I don't mind 11:29, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

user:Ceiling Cat

A user, Ceiling Cat (talk · contribs) has been indefinitely blocked as a vandalism only account. Can someone delete her user-subpages that she created? Thanks, D.M.N. (talk) 11:41, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

Errr.... am I missing something here. Apparently this is a legit sock of User:Raul654 Pedro :  Chat  11:45, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, it should be unblocked. He spammed only people he knows on IRC (e.g. Cream) or people he's associated with on-wiki (Sandy). Sceptre 11:48, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

The account was blocked in 2006, but it's missing it's unblock log. Given that Raul has used it since, the account is certainly unblocked. From what I remember, Raul usurped it before the time block logs moved, so this is the block log from the old account holder. When the account was usurped, the new account name will have been automatically unblocked. Ryan Postlethwaite 11:49, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

User:Damiens.rf - stalking and harassing

(note:readded as not answered as of 12:25, 5 August 2008 (UTC)) This user has a history of stalking, harassing and disruptive editing. He has followed me around to several articles, reverting, deleting and leaving messages on my talk page. In particular, I point to the edit histories of Chris Barnes (actor) and the fact that the user then went on to nominate the article for deletion, presumably because I has worked on it extensively, and deleted the actor's name as a notable in the article about his hometown.

He received a warning about his abuse of Twinkle, which he used to revert edits I'd made as "vandalism."

He received a complaint on his talk page today from two other editors.

I admit I lost my cool after a while and left an uncomplimentary message on his talk page, for which I was unfairly banned for two weeks. I don't think it's right that someone like this is allowed to prowl around here the way he does without any kind of rebuke from the community and that an administrator would know what was going on and penalize one of his targets instead. Cbsite (talk) 12:17, 3 August 2008 (UTC)

One article does not a stalker make. Theresa Knott | The otter sank 15:59, 3 August 2008 (UTC)

I should point out that the user has a strong sense about the use of non-free images - he doesn't think they should be used at all. He nominates for deletion at his own whim, reverts as "vandalism" edits that offer a rationale for the image's presence and harasses just about anyone who tries to go up against him. Here's a sample of his "submit or die" editing from July 15 and 16: ,,,,,..

And read his comments as he tries to get the article deleted: he's got an ax to grind, and he's not about making constructive contributions. Cbsite (talk) 23:37, 3 August 2008 (UTC)

The misuse of Twinkle should result in him not being allowed to use it. Corvus cornix_talk 19:48, 3 August 2008 (UTC)

OK, this has been here for three days and this is the best you can do? This guy continues to get a free pass? The Teflon Deletionist? Cbsite (talk) 11:16, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

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