| Revision as of 20:37, 10 August 2008 editPFHLai (talk | contribs)Administrators82,424 edits →DYK: Jillian Clare: new section← Previous edit | Revision as of 01:50, 11 August 2008 edit undoWilhelmina Will (talk | contribs)Autopatrolled, Extended confirmed users, Pending changes reviewers, Rollbackers348,378 edits Archiving this overwhelming collection of comments. It seems a lot went on in my wiki-break, but I don't have time to read it all through right now!!!Next edit → | ||
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| == Shawn James ] == | |||
| Hey, I noticed you placed a "Review in progress" template on this submission at 7.45 this morning. Just wondering if you reached a decision? (The template suggests removal after an hour) Cheers - <span style="font-family:Hobo Std.; font-size:12px; ">''']'''<sup>''']'''</sup></span> 22:09, 4 August 2008 (UTC) | |||
| :I haven't yet. I asked a user in the National Basketball Wikiproject to look at a copy of the submission which I had pasted on one of my sandboxes, and give an opinion, but I don't think he's been on Misplaced Pages for the past two days or so. I'm still not sure if Shawn James satisfies notability requirements. ] (]) 22:19, 4 August 2008 (UTC) | |||
| ::Ok, just making sure you hadn't forgotten about it! Good luck asserting notability. Interesting sig btw. - <span style="font-family:Hobo Std.; font-size:12px; ">''']'''<sup>''']'''</sup></span> 22:21, 4 August 2008 (UTC) | |||
| :::Thank you; it's of course in reference to the song "]". The gloves part references an obsession I had with gloves after reading '']'' I actually received a picture of a girl in shades for this signature not even an hour ago! ] (]) 22:36, 4 August 2008 (UTC) | |||
| == AN/I report wasn't closed, etc. == | |||
| Wilhelmina, several things. | |||
| (1) The AN/I report that supposedly decided your topic ban from DYK was never properly closed. Normally, such a discussion will be closed by an administrator who (1) reviews the arguments and makes a decision (2) notifies any parties affected by the decision and (3) is the person to contact as the first step in lifting any sanctions applied. That nobody ever closed the discussion is why you were never notified of the decision. Decisions are not automatically made on Wikpedia through vote count, rather, all binding decisions are made by individuals who take responsibility for that decision. Since administrator ] noticed you had never been notified, he reported the alleged ban to you, but he clearly didn't take responsibility for it. Technically, you are not banned; however, since the !vote there was so heavily in favor of a topic ban, though very unclear on details like "How long?", I'd advise you to continue as if there is a ban until a few days more, at least. I've asked Fritzpoll to clarify this. If he doesn't take responsibility for a ban decision, ''then'' I'd conclude that there is no ban, without any further fuss, unless someone wants to make a fuss. And that can be addressed if it happens. My own review has concluded that, as far as anything that was alleged on AN/I, there was no basis for a ban, and that, if, as was alleged, you were a ''terrible'' editor -- which is far from the case, you are excellent -- then DYK is part of the solution, not part of the problem, since when you submit an article to DYK, it gets fairly close and careful review. But bad editors don't get 28 DYK articles. | |||
| (2) The article of yours that I proposed at DYK under Aug 1 creation is still there. My first attempt to replace your nomination was reverted by Gatoclass, but when I then simply nominated it myself, it's been there for a while now. I think Gatoclass simply misunderstood the situation and the guidelines. Blechnic's claim that there was something wrong with another editor nominating your articles found no support at AN/I, and he's been reduced to, at least yesterday, scouring your old contributions for copyvios. Don't worry about it. If you made any more mistakes back then, it's moot. You could have copied entire books, months ago, and it wouldn't mean anything, and even if it was yesterday, at least if you said, "Oops! I won't do that again!" nothing bad would happen. Unless you kept on doing it. Remember, Misplaced Pages does not punish, and bans and blocks are only used to protect, which is why it's so important, when you make a mistake, to admit it -- or at least don't deny it! | |||
| (2) In order to consider the charges made against you, I've found it necessary a number of times to review your contributions. Please keep up the good work. I noticed something today that I thought I'd mention. You used a long series of Undo's to restore your Sandbox to an earlier version. If you want to take a page back to an earlier version, a quick way to do it is to look at History for the page, and open up an earlier version (just click on the time and date display for the version), open an edit window for it, and save it. This will remove all subsequent changes with one edit. It's the poor editor's version of Rollback. You can also access the Edit to restore the old version from any diff. | |||
| (3) On behalf of Misplaced Pages, with the powers vested in me as an Editor, I wish to apologize for the shabby way you have been treated. While it is true that you made some mistakes, Misplaced Pages is the "encyclopedia that anyone can edit," not just perfect people. Misplaced Pages is, in theory, very tolerant of mistakes, but sometimes individual editors don't understand that and try to use Misplaced Pages process to blame and punish, and the very openness of Misplaced Pages makes it vulnerable to injustice resulting from this. My long-term project here is to make this a rare occurrence, but, in the short term, please don't mistake the actions of a few (even if that few gang up in some place, even if they include some administrators) for the position of the community, which, collectively, over time, is very open, forgiving, and tolerant. And, though you are not a new editor and have, in some ways, far more experience than I, here, I once again welcome you and support your efforts. It's fine if you want to get 10,000 DYK articles. Tough, for sure, but not impossible, especially if some changes take place at DYK. And I trust, fully, that you now understand to avoid certain kinds of actions in working toward that goal, and I trust this whether you reply or not, though it might help explain the matter to others if you do decide to reply. --22:22, 5 August 2008 (UTC) | |||
| :A procedural error on my part, and I have now accepted responsibility for the closing decision on my talk page. There is nothing personal here, and if your work is good enough over the next little while, I won't hesitate to propose overturning the ban. Best wishes ] (]) 09:37, 6 August 2008 (UTC) | |||
| ::I've thanked Fritzpoll for taking responsibility. While this might look like bad news, I urge you to realize that your intuitions and feelings were correct. There were editors who were presenting themselves as "helpful" who were joining in the rejection of your editorial work. Fritzpoll, I assume, was acting in good faith, he believes what he has written, but a supporter of yours, he was not. I don't like to divide the community into friends and enemies, and I'd urge you to avoid holding grudges of any kind, and I'll also note that our critics can provide us with advice that our friends may overlook or be too polite to voice, but ... there were a series of editors who were condemning your actions, claiming that you were badly motivated (there is nothing wrong with trying to reach 5000 DYK articles or with being proud of your 28 so far), and, at the same time, saying "let me help you," or volunteering to mentor you. My own conclusion, reviewing your work, was that you didn't need mentoring, you simply needed friends, editors who will explain mistakes to you, if you make them, but who will also encourage you and praise your successes. I have asked Fritzpoll to lift the ban. I do not know him well enough to predict how he will respond. Let's hope he does the right thing, and even if he decides not to lift it, let's assume that this will be, in the long run, the right thing (it may cause other good things to happen). --] (]) 12:59, 6 August 2008 (UTC) | |||
| :::I would rather that you didn't put words into my mouth regarding my opinion of Wilhelmina, Abd - it is not your right to do so. I am required to assess community consensus in relation to policy, and this was the outcome. You may not like it, and you may disagree with it, as is your right to do. Personally, I have always felt that WW is well-meaning, but misguided when it came to these violations. You are a good editor WW< but you just need a little guidance before the community will let you nominate at DYK again. ] (]) 13:13, 6 August 2008 (UTC) | |||
| ::::Thanks, Fritzpoll. I don't think I put words into your mouth, the "let me help you" is not a quotation but a description, I'm sorry if it appeared as if it were a quotation. Your view of the role of administrators is something that I'll be bringing up at AN or the Village Pump, I expect, simply because I see that clarification is needed. It is not the job of admins to "assess community consensus," purely, but to examine the ''basis'' for that apparent consensus and make conclusions based on the ''arguments.'' This is why an AfD closing administrator can reverse a decision that was even unanimous at AfD, simply based on Talk page discussion after close (for example, a recent AfD was reversed by the closer because the nominator was a sock puppet and had presented deceptive evidence, another because more reliable sources were found and shown, etc.). Please, you are an administrator, focus on the issue, which is her alleged copyvio problem and the risk of repetition. I do not see any significant risk, beyond what is normal for editors, and DYK makes the risk less, not more. --] (]) 13:39, 6 August 2008 (UTC) | |||
| :::::I was commenting on the "but a supporter of yours, he is not". And yes, I am very well aware that that is the role of an administrator, but as you yourself have acknowledged on my talkpage that you have yet to look at the AN/I discussion where here copyright problems in several previous articles were discussed (hence claims of a persistent problem), I think you need to be a bit calmer about this. Why don't you just let WW come and talk to me about it? I am a reasonable person, I fought tooth and nail via e-mail to keep OR from quitting over the ensuing mess, so I'm not just an uncaring unfeeling drone. But I saw policy violations and a consensus to act - I don't really see the problem with WW coming and talking to me about this, whereafter I can return to the community to say "yes, all is well, please give WW the nod to resume work at DYK". You are not involved. ] (]) 13:45, 6 August 2008 (UTC) | |||
| ==Suggestions== | |||
| Hi. Let me start by saying that I was one of the editors who supported the DYK ban at ANI. Having said that, I must agree with ] that the process was rushed and should have been handled better. I've been looking at a few of your contributions, and while I don't want to minimze the issues that were the subject of that ANI discussion, they don't seem nearly as prevelant as they were made out to be. It even seems that we collaborated recently on the ] article, although my contribution to that was miniscule - I just added a link. Good work on that article by the way - if ] didn't find any serious problems with it, there weren't any. A few other points I would like to make: | |||
| 1. I hope you have been able to calm down. Nothing on Misplaced Pages is worth getting upset for 2 minutes about, let alone 2 hours. | |||
| 2. What I, and I think several others, would like to see is some acknowledgement that you understand the importance of avoiding copyvios and major inaccuracies, and will do your best to avoid them in the future. If you were to do that I think you would gain a lot of support right there. The important thing is not what was done or said in the past, but what will happen in the future. | |||
| 3. I nominated your ] article for DYK. I thought it was a good article, and while I needed to tighten up a few things, I did not see any serious problems. So if that and the article ] nominated get accepted, you will have added 2 DYKs tou your total despite all the drama of the past week. | |||
| Anyway, I hope you are feeling better and will be able to return to being a prolific contributor of quality Misplaced Pages articles going forward. ] (]) 03:04, 6 August 2008 (UTC) | |||
| :The ] article got a general approval with a note that it needed three citations. I've provided them, but you might want to look at the article and make sure I did it right.... I haven't used citation templates and so I didn't use them for what I added from IMDB. Rlendog, thanks. Wilhelmina, he's right: there ''were'' "issues" but they weren't particularly serious (except when people believed that they were happening all the time), nor worthy of a ban if not continued, and your silence regarding them spooked some of those who commented. I'm sure it wasn't arrogant disregard, and silence shouldn't be taken as proof of anything, but Misplaced Pages isn't perfect. Good thing, too. If it was perfect, then we'd be expected to be perfect, too. --] (]) 03:31, 6 August 2008 (UTC) | |||
| :] was promoted, is now in Next Update. Congratulations. Shit! I don't have ''one'' DYK and this 16-year-old girl has 29! (Seriously, I've only got a handful of articles I've created at all, my focus is on community process.) --] (]) 13:23, 6 August 2008 (UTC) | |||
| ::I have reason to believe the IMDb listing referenced in that article is incorrect and it might be in your best interest to remove that citation (IMDB usually isn't a very good RS anyway). I have checked the website of the Director's Guild of America and according to that site the winner in the category of "Outstanding Directorial Achievement in Daytime Serials" for 2001, the award Jamie Howarth won according to IMDb was actually won by ], not ]. However, looking more closely it looks like One Life to Live won in 2000, not 2001, IMDb is just wrong, fortunately it's not as wrong as it first appeared. You should probably fix the cite to be for the Director's Guild website rather than IMDb however the website doesn't seem to allow linking directly to the listing, how annoying. Anyway, check the site, it seems to be 2000 not 2001. ]]] 13:59, 6 August 2008 (UTC) | |||
| :::I added that citation, and, without much experience, have assumed that IMBD is reasonably reliable, based on what I've seen in other articles. The specific reliability of sources is not necessarily something that is immediately obvious. I'll look into it. Thanks for checking. The point isn't my interest or Wilhelmina's interest, but the project's interest, and no individual should be considered responsible for making corrections. Wilhelmina had left a "citation needed" tag on that fact, so she is absolutely not responsible for any problem with it. Anyone is, of course, free to correct errors or request better citations, and that's how it works. Mistakes are made. I can say that the sources for that article have been more thoroughly checked than is normal for Misplaced Pages articles, but that, of course, doesn't guarantee accuracy. I will make a note in article Talk so that general attention is called to this. --] (]) 15:30, 6 August 2008 (UTC) | |||
| :::Actually, I was confused. The cn tags weren't added by Wilhelmina, the particular error had been sourced to the newspaper article, which mentioned the Emmys but didn't give the year. The cn tags, in any case, were about different facts, though it was all a bit interconnected. I did find a direct link to the DGA award, which is a page for 2000 *and* certain awards for 2001, which could be what got IMDB confused.--] (]) 16:03, 6 August 2008 (UTC) | |||
| ::::Thanks, I didn't have time to find a direct link since I'm at work. IMDb is mostly user submitted, that's why it isn't a good RS just like Misplaced Pages isn't a good RS. Usually for awards and the like there's a better source if you can just find it. ]]] 16:45, 6 August 2008 (UTC) | |||
| ==DYK== | |||
| {| class="messagebox {{#ifeq:|yes|small|standard}}-talk" | |||
| |- | |||
| |] | |||
| |On ], ], ''']''' was updated with {{#if:|facts|a fact}} from the article{{#if:|s|}} ''''']'''''{{#if:|{{#if:|, |, and}} ''''']''''' | |||
| }}{{#if:|{{#if:|, |, and}} ''''']''''' | |||
| }}{{#if:|, and ''''']'''''}}, which you created or substantially expanded. If you know of another interesting fact from a recently created article, then please suggest it on the ]. | |||
| |} <!-- ], ] --> --] (]) 14:18, 6 August 2008 (UTC) | |||
| == DYK: Jillian Clare == | |||
| {| class="messagebox {{#ifeq:|yes|small|standard}}-talk" | |||
| |- | |||
| |] | |||
| |On ], ], ''']''' was updated with {{#if:|facts|a fact}} from the article{{#if:|s|}} ''''']'''''{{#if:|{{#if:|, |, and}} ''''']''''' | |||
| }}{{#if:|{{#if:|, |, and}} ''''']''''' | |||
| }}{{#if:|, and ''''']'''''}}, which you created or substantially expanded. If you know of another interesting fact from a recently created article, then please suggest it on the ]. | |||
| |} <!-- ], ] --> --] (]) 20:37, 10 August 2008 (UTC) | |||
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