Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 21:37, 31 August 2008

Archives

General 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, vote, 6, 7, 8, 9 (AD/CE), 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 14a, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37, 38, 39, 40, 41, 42, 43, 44, 45, 46, 47, 48, 49, 49a, 50, 51, 52, 53, 54, 55, 56, 57, 58, 59, 60, 61, 62, 63, 64, 65, 66, 67, 68, 69, 70, 71, 72, 73, 74, 75, 76, 77, 78, 79, 80, 81, 82, 83, 84, 85, 86, 87, 88, 89, 90, 91, 92, 93, 94, 95, 96, 97, 98, 99, 100, 101, 102, 103, 104, 105, 106, 107, 108, 109, 110, 111, 112, 113, 114, 115, 116, 117, 118, 119, 120, 121, 122, 123, 124, 125, 126, 127, 128, 129, 130, 131, 132, 133, 134, 135, 136, 137, 138, 139, 140, 141, 142, 143, 144, 145, 146, 147, 148, 149, 150, 151, 152, 153, 154, 155, 156, 157, 158, 159, 160, 161 Binary prefixes B0, B1, B2, B3, B4, B5, B6, B7, B8, B9, B10, B11, B12, B13, B14, B15, B16, B17 Years and dates D1, D2, D3, D4, D5, D6, D7, D8, D9, D10, D11, D12, D13, D14 See also Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Dates Misplaced Pages talk:Date debate Misplaced Pages talk:Naming conventions (calendar dates) Misplaced Pages talk:Timeline standards Misplaced Pages:Measurements Debate Misplaced Pages talk:Manual of Style (dates and numbers)/Date autoformatting Complete rewrite of Units of Measurements (June 2008) Dec. 2008 RfC on Date linking/autoformatting (three proposals) Dec. 2008 RfC on Date linking/autoformatting (detailed)

This page has archives. Sections older than 5 days may be automatically archived by Lowercase sigmabot III.

edit Years and dates archives

Archive D1 1.1 A new parallel syntax for autoformatting dates Archive D2 2.1 Date preferences and Jogersbot's massive undoing of edits Archive D3 3.1 What about date ranges? 3.2 UTC± Notation 3.3 Question 3.4 Clarification 3.5 Proposed 3.6 Misplaced Pages:Manual of Style (dates and numbers)#ISO date formats 3.7 AD/BC CE/BCE issues 3.8 Ranges of years 3.9 When did the year-without-date recommendations change? Archive D4 4.1 Comma in dates 4.2 Linking dates 4.3 Link only years? Archive D5 5.1 Default date display setting 5.2 Just following the rules, folks 5.3 Piped 'Year in xxx' links 5.4 Deleting year links 5.5 Year ranges 5.6 Misplaced Pages:Manual of Style (dates and numbers)#Years, decades, and centuries Archive D6 too many topics to link here, all related to date autoformatting, date autolinking, whether either of these should be used, or which date format to use in different contexts

Lightbot removing links to volume units within infoboxes

Moved from Lightmouse talk page: begin
Please leave lk=on on {{convert}} in infoboxes. -- User:Docu

In all of them? Lightmouse (talk) 22:12, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

I'd very much support this. Leaving links in infoboxes doesn't disrupt prose, but at the same time provides a link for those people who really don't understand the meaning of certain measurements (after all, the site is supposed to educate). Is it possible for Lightbot to detect Infoboxes, or better yet, all templates (aka, anything inside {{ }}), and leave the contents alone? — Huntster (t • @ • c) 19:00, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Only make links that are relevant to the context says In general, do not create links to ...Plain English words, including common units of measurement. It goes on to give examples of common units of measurement. The usual reason given for links is to provide access to a conversion factor. There are some people that suggest that even 'second tier' units (i.e. not common but not obscure either) should not be linked when a conversion is provided. I agree with you that a link will help if people do not understand the meaning of *certain* measurements where they are obscure. Can you give me an example edit that you disagree with? Lightmouse (talk) 08:54, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

Personally, I think the units for volumes on {{infobox lake}} should be wikilinked. This reflects the consensus for that infobox. -- User:Docu

Moved from Lightmouse talk page: end

What do people think? Lightmouse (talk) 09:32, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

I don't think this is an issue for MOSNUM, but only an issue for Lightbot. Policy and guidelines are one set of issues, a bot that forcefully imposes them is something entirely different. Please move this discussion back to User talk:Lightmouse. --Danorton (talk • contribs) 14:18, 24 August 2008 (UTC)

I don’t buy into the premise that “common” units of measure don’t need to be linked. The first occurrence of a new unit of measure should always be linked. Feet or acres are common in the U.S. but might be quite unfamiliar to an 8th-grader in Europe. What is “common” to you or me is not necessarily common to someone else. Similarly—and I know this will be hard for Europeans to believe—but “kilogram” and “meter” are not at all “common” for Americans. MOSNUM already calls for this nuanced approach for spelling out the names of “common” units:

In the main body text, the first instances of units of measurements should be spelled out at least once, and perhaps several times for less familiar units before unit symbols are employed. For instance, one should write “…the typical batch is 250 kilograms…” before one later writes “…and then 15 kg of emulsifier is added.” For less common units of measure, editors should not employ unit symbols without first showing the unit symbol parenthetically after the first use of the full unit name; e.g., “The light intensity over the metrology table was 800 lux (lx).”

Clearly, the above speaks to the issue of spelling out units of measure before employing unit symbols, but the principle underlying it is the same: what is extremely familiar in one culture is not all that familiar in all others. So I would suggest that the very first instance of any new primary unit of measurement (not the parenthetical conversion) be linked.

As for the {{convert}} template, and whether it should have linking turned on in infoboxes, I don’t see the harm of allowing links there. Info boxes (sidebars) should be regarded as rather of an article within an article. Many readers skim articles by going straight to sidebars. Greg L (talk) 16:07, 24 August 2008 (UTC)

This was extensively discussed at Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style_(dates_and_numbers)/Archive_105#Bot_removing_links_to_metric_units and I think we are covering the same ground again. There are three common reasons cited for linking units:

• 1. To access a multiplication factor so that the reader can do the conversion manually. This reason does not apply when a conversion is provided, even for uncommon units.
• 2. To give the reader an awareness of the quantity (length, volume, weight) being discussed. This reason does not apply when a conversion is provided, even for uncommon units. Even without conversions, context will be helpful. The road is xx foobars long. - the foobar is clearly a unit of length
• 3. To give the reader new knowledge about this strange unit. When a conversion is provided, this is the only reason left. Frankly, I think anyone that reads: Bob is 6 feet (1.8 m) tall, yet still wants the units linked is either claiming astonishing ignorance of the two most common measuring systems in English or is trying to make Misplaced Pages into a dictionary.

Lets get real here, common units are linked because they can be, not because people are confused about what they are. Lightmouse (talk) 16:34, 24 August 2008 (UTC)

• No, not trying to turn Misplaced Pages into a dictionary; your first option: “astonishing ignorance”. I assume you would advocate not linking the first instance of “meter” because you believe it to be totally obvious, well-understood, ubiquitous, and common to all peoples of planet Earth. And you’d be wrong on that count. A spectacular number of Americans do not know what a meter or kilometer or a kilogram is. And what’s at stake over this? Linking only the first occurrence—not all of them. Greg L (talk) 16:51, 24 August 2008 (UTC)

I don't believe that the first occurrence of common units ("feet", "m", "mile") should be linked unless there is particular reason to do so, with the onus on the contributors to say why. I'm complaining about this very thing at an FAC nomination page now, where we have something like "It is Template:Ft to m tall". Looks awkward. Yep, the conversion says all, and since we provide both units, no one should be in need of further explanation. It doesn't help that the linked pages are not shaped to provide the very information someone needs about factors of conversion—they tend to be historical in their angle, at least at the start. If an eight-year-old reader doesn't know what the basic units in their country are, they should pay attention in class or ask their parents. Similarly, we don't link horse unless there's a good reason to. Tony (talk) 03:18, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

hmm .. feet and mile are not units for volume, or am I just confused?

Anyways, for infoboxes, there doesn't appear to be a consensus to remove any links to units. I suggested that we refrain from doing so in the future. -- User:Docu

Removal of conversions

There seems to be some confusion about when it is appropriate to remove metric units. With Lassen National Forest, metric units have been removed and editors have cited three separate reasons for doing so:

• conversion templates are a burden for the reader
• numeric formats are a problem
• Pmanderson's edit with a summary that does not mention removal.

Are metric units really that bad for readers that they should be removed from articles? Lightmouse (talk) 09:50, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

This is typical of Anderson's deceptive tactics. No, metric conversions may not be removed from the inline text. Tony (talk) 12:47, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

Tony never hesitates to resort to abuse when he has no valid argument. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 20:38, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

You mean I never resort to abuse when I do have a valid argument? You grant me too much. Tony (talk) 14:35, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

Can I quote you on that? But no, I'm a mathematician; I did not mean more than I said. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 17:02, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

There are some things that Pmanderson says and does that I agree with. This is not one of them. I would like to ask Pmanderson a specific question:

• Have you removed any metric units elsewhere? If so, can you put them back, or let us know so that we can do so?

Lightmouse (talk) 13:10, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

With very few exceptions, one should not remove any conversions; be they metric or not—plain and simple. —MJCdetroit 13:36, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

Not that I can recall. I will agree that this is close to a borderline; but I judge here that the balance between readable prose and accessibility of the conversion (where a more accurate conversion is in the infobox) is clear. I would remove a conversion to customary units on the same grounds. Unlike many editors here, I have no dog in this fight except clarity. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 20:36, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

"I will agree that this is close to a borderline"—whom are you agreeing with? No one has said anything of the sort. If you want to employ "spin" (which is not welcome here, anyway), it's usual to avoid an obvious approach. Tony (talk) 01:46, 24 August 2008 (UTC)

• How in the world did anyone manage to make a reasonable-sounding case for removing metric conversions? Here’s some Misplaced Pages 101:Many English-speaking readers of Misplaced Pages use metric. I’m sure someone will weigh in here and correct me that most use metric (but I’m not sure of the facts as of this writing). So in this case, where it’s an American-centric article that would have a significant portion of Americans as its readership—or where a visiting foreigner would need to be conversant with Americans on that subject—the article’s primary unit of measurement should be U.S. customary (with the first instance of that unit of measure spelled out in full and linked). In this case, I don’t know whether that would be acres or square miles, but I do note that the U.S. Forest Service’s Web page for the park uses acres. So were it me writing this article, that’s the unit I’d use.

  And clearly, an appropriate conversion must be shown right after the primary value. By “appropriate”, I mean whatever metric or SI land-area unit is customarily used for extremely large tracts of land for English-speaking peoples outside of the U.S. And finally, per MOSNUM, the conversion should use the unit symbol and it should not be linked since it is A) obvious that it is a measurement of area, and B) its magnitude is obvious by being juxtaposed right beside the primary unit of measure and its value.

  P.S. I note that the Forest Service Web page says the park is 1.2 million acres, so I would double check the source that says it is just under 1.1 million acres. Greg L (talk) 17:28, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

...I’m sure someone will weigh in here and correct me that most use metric.... Of course I will. This is going to be a source of annoyance to many Americans, but there are about as many Chinese who can read English as there are Americans - about 300 million in both cases. Worldwide, the number of people who can read English is nearly 2 billion, and the Economist estimates that by 2050, half the world's population will understand English (which by then will amount to 4.5 billion English readers.) A small percentage of them will know how big an acre is, but almost all (including most Americans) will understand square metres and square kilometres. And, to be frank, not that many Americans these days know how big an acre is, either . (Quick, off the top of your head, tell me how many square feet there are in an acre).RockyMtnGuy (talk) 18:22, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

• RockyMtnGuy, you’ve confused me for someone who embraces the U.S. customary system. I do not. First, the U.S. customary system is no “system”. Secondly, I am an R&D engineer and do all my initial design in SI and convert only to the last minute to write owners manuals and what not. SI is the only way to do tough engineering. I even installed a Honeywell, mechanical, round-dial celsius thermostat in my house and had to have a friend snare one when he was up in Canada for me. How many Americans go that far?

  Having said that, you are totally mistaken when you presume that “most Americans” will understand square meters and square kilometers.” No, they don’t. This whole issue has been thoroughly hashed out in depth on Talk:MOSNUM before. MOSNUM guidelines are clear, correct, serve an important purpose, and—as Skyring stated below—should be abided by all editors.

  The simple fact is that Americans use the U.S. customary system and any article that is U.S.-centric should use U.S. customary units as their primary measure. We do this to minimize confusion and best serve our readership. That’s what we’re here for as editors; we are not here to help promote the adoption of the SI in the U.S. by ignoring U.S. customary units in an faux “Oh, didn’tcha know? Miles are so ‘yesterday’, they aren’t even found in our encyclopedia anymore.” Misplaced Pages is not to be hijacked by proponents of the SI in a back-door effort to promote change in how the world works. In order to communicate to our readership with minimal confusion, we communicate in a fashion that is accurate, succinct, clearest, and most natural and comfortable for the greatest portion of our readership. Sometimes that requires SI units first (with U.S. customary units in parenthetical conversion), and sometimes it doesn’t. Greg L (talk) 19:14, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

I wasn't referring to you in particular, I was talking about Americans in general. I was making the point that the customary units of the US are only customary in the US. You can't expect people in other countries to understand non-metric units because they never use them. Misplaced Pages articles need to have conversions to metric units for the benefit of those people reading it outside the US who don't use US non-metric units - which is most of the world's population. The adoption of SI units in the US is a secondary issue which I wasn't discussing.RockyMtnGuy (talk) 01:43, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

Thoroughly agree. We aren't here to convert people to one system or another. we are here to supply information as best we can. If American people feel more comfortable with yards and acres and pounds, then American articles should feature those units, with SI values in brackets after. If and when the U.S. uses SI predominantly, then we will follow suit. Likewise for (say) South American articles. We use SI primarily, but we don't leave our American readers stranded amongst unfamiliar values. We keep everybody happy, apart from the zealots who can't abide any system but what they were born with. --Pete (talk) 19:37, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

I'd like to see the whole world use and be happy with SI units. Consign pounds and shillings and ounces and miles to the bucket of things that seemed like a good idea at the time, but weren't world's best practice. But this is one of those things where we have to cater for everybody who is likely to read the article. We aren't pandering to personal preferences, we are doing our best to inform. If we exclusively use units that some of our readers are not familiar with, then we may drive them away, or force them into doing their own conversion calculations, which could be wrong. The system nutted out by the community and outlined above works well, and if someone is tinkering with the system for their own personal reasons, then they should be warned and sanctioned until they accept that they are part of the wider wikicommunity. --Pete (talk) 18:57, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

Newsflash. Queen Elizabeth II has made a major announcement in London overnight: she is pleased with the progress of metrication in the UK, and has decided that if the American colonies do not immediately dispense with the imperial system of weights and measures, her government will force them to go back to the duodecimal pounds, shillings and pence. She was heard to utter under her breath "Factors of 14 and 16, pfffff ... and that "US customary" term—doesn't fool me for one minute." Tony (talk) 01:57, 24 August 2008 (UTC)

14?? You do realize that stones aren't customary American units? Septentrionalis PMAnderson 17:43, 24 August 2008 (UTC)

I've cabled Her Majesty on this point. Tony (talk) 03:08, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

The use of both imperial and metric units was predicated by the knowledge that using both systems would provide the reader with "better" information. Removing one or other does not serve that purpose. Yes, we do have SI-centric editors that have gone on a crusade as well. Typically, the project sets up "guidelines" but these are intended to provide a reasonable "way to go" and unless there is an overriding reason to use a different format (see the arguments proposed to allow any format for a citation?), these guidelines serve that purpose. FWiW Bzuk (talk) 12:17, 24 August 2008 (UTC).

• “Crusade”… Appropriate word. Indeed, we are here to write articles so readers from a wide variety of English-speaking cultures can as easily and naturally as possible, absorb and understand the information presented with minimal confusion. We are not here to drag that silly ol’ U.S.-of-A into more rapidly adopting the SI by ignoring U.S. customary units as part of the Grand crusade to show the world the path to a better and brighter future! ©™®  Just write clearly—and do so in a way that is helpful for as wide a variety of English-speaking cultures as is practical. Greg L (talk) 16:41, 24 August 2008 (UTC)

I see a lot of agreement here. People do not want metric units imposed on them. On the other hand, people are not aware that non-metric units are imposed by silly decisions at high levels. For example I see reports about the Olympics where journalists strip out metric units because they believe that American viewers can't cope with nasty foreign measures. Laws also mandate non-metric units. I was in contact with somebody that was prevented from shipping the standard 500 ml bottles into the United States because it is a Federal offense to have just '500 ml' on the bottle label. A separate label had to be made just for that one country. Companies like Proctor and Gamble pay huge costs for these technical barriers. The old joke is that metrication is only possible when all the old people have died. Lightmouse (talk) 17:02, 24 August 2008 (UTC)

In addition to being contrary to US law (see below), I think that prohibiting the use of metric units would be considered a non-tariff barrier to trade under the various international agreements the US has signed.RockyMtnGuy (talk) 01:43, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

That joke goes back at least to the 1920's, when metric-basd units could first claim to be world-wide. Like similar remarks on other subjects, it is optimistic: the people who were old then have died out. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 17:41, 24 August 2008 (UTC)

Metric (SI) units are world-wide. Even the US has adopted them, as of 1866: It shall be lawful throughout the United States of America to employ the weights and measures of the metric system; and no contract or dealing, or pleading in any court, shall be deemed invalid or liable to objection because the weights or measures expressed or referred to therein are weights or measures of the metric system.. In 1901 the National Bureau of Standards announced: Henceforth it shall be the policy of the National Bureau of Standards to use the units of the International System (SI), as adopted by the 11th General Conference of Weights and Measures, except when the use of these units would obviously impair communication or reduce the usefulness of a report.. In 1988, Congress passed the Omnibus Trade and Competitiveness Act, which said the metric system of measurement is the preferred system of weights and measures for United States trade and commerce. So, metric units are universal around the world, except in the minds of certain people.RockyMtnGuy (talk) 01:43, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

The most recent change in the relationship between imperial and metrics was just last year, when MOSNUM made it possible to dispense with imperial conversions in science-based articles, provided there is consensus among contributors. I'm not pushing for further change any time soon, but let me tell you what I think will almost certainly happen, in sequence, over the next five to ten years on WP:

1. Main units (converted) in all non-US-based articles properly enforced.
2. Conversions to imperial not required in all non-US-based articles, not just all science-based articles.
3. Conversions to imperial not permitted in science-based and non-US-based articles.
4. Main units may (subsequently must) be metric in US-based articles, converted.
5. Conversion to imperial in US-based articles optional.
6. WP entirely metric, no conversions.

It's up to the community how quickly this happens. Barack Obama may speed things along. Tony (talk) 03:08, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

I doubt any of these will happen, and regret the strong drive towards "enforcement". The comment on Barack Obama is utterly implausible; there have been many Democratic presidents since the non-English speaking world went metric, two since the Metrication Council was formed - Obama is less likely than most of them to rock this boat. The United States remains where it is: largely metric in industry and science, largely using conventional units in daily life. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 16:41, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

There is no strong drive towards enforcement of metric units in the United States. Quite the opposite, federal law (e.g. the FPLA) enforces non-metric units. Lightmouse (talk) 17:49, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

I meant a drive for enforcement here; compare the text of the post to which I replied. Since the real world is not likely to become more metric in the next five to ten years, it is unlikely to be suitable for Misplaced Pages to do so. We are not a political movement. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 18:03, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

OK, I did not understand what you meant. I understand now. Lightmouse (talk) 18:08, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

Perhaps we can do the same thing with date formats? --Pete (talk) 08:46, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

RockyMtnGuy, the relevant Federal law that makes '500 ml' labels illegal is the Fair Packaging and Labeling Act (FPLA). It mandates dual unit labels on most prepacked products in the supermarket. It is an offense to use metric-only labels for products within its scope. If supermarkets were free to sell products with metric-only labels, they would. I don't know if the Act itself is illegal but it is certainly questioned as something that increases costs for trade. There is lobbying to change the law but unfortunately few politicians willing to stand up and say that Americans should be permitted to see metric-only labels. Furthermore, they would be arguing for free trade and support for that does not always translate into the law. Lightmouse (talk) 12:03, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

Whereas in Australia, it became an offence to use imperial units on packaging and signs. No "waiting for the oldies to die" there ... Tony (talk) 14:33, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

It is perfectly legal under international law for other countries to prohibit the use of non-metric units within their boundaries, and like Australia, the European Union has already passed a law to that effect (although it has been suspended indefinitely). If the US requires the use of US conventional units, that means companies are forced to use different packaging in the US versus the rest of the world. Even if other units were allowed, in Commonwealth countries the Imperial pint and quart were 20% bigger than the US pint and quart. Using the US units could have resulted in charges of defrauding the consumer. This and other aspects of using non-standard units contributes to the astronomical US trade deficit.RockyMtnGuy (talk) 05:54, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

I'm impressed

WP:MOSNUM and WT:MOSNUM continue to get a lot of edits, but through it all, WP:MOSNUM is getting better and better. If no one minds, I'll toss WP:MOSNUM into CAT:GEN and report on updates monthly at WT:UPDATES. This month I'm doing updates a week early so that people can complain if they see anything they don't like before I do the update on Sept 1; I'll probably keep doing that. - Dan Dank55 (send/receive) 00:26, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

Protected

Due to the recent edit warring this page has been protected for 2 days. Please use the time to discuss the matter here and come to a consensus on what should and shouldn't be included on the page. If an urgent edit needs to be made during the protection, please place the template {{editprotected}} here with details of the edit that needs to be made and justification for the edit, and an administrator will come by to make the edit. If you have agreed and resolved the dispute before the expiry of the protection, please make a listing at requests for unprotection. While it is also possible to make such requests on my talk page, it would be quicker for you to use those previous methods. Thank you. Stifle (talk) 14:37, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

We have a straw poll above in which four editors have supported the present text. Skyring has not !voted, but I presume he opposes. This is as close to consensus as we are likely to come.

There is some discussion elsewhere of a modification to this which would tie the date format to the national variety of English used; this is a separate proposal, independent of Skyring's arguments, but comments are welcome. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 14:51, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

Please someone change the protection template to this: {{pp-dispute|expiry=August 31, 2008}}. Waltham, The Duke of 17:24, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

So far, there have been several discussions, several suggestions, and several polls regarding different aspects of the autoformatting mechanism. It is good to have these discussions to find out what everyone thinks of the subject. After all this discussion, though, the original proposal has been lost in a sea of discussion. Someone has marked the #Again calling for date linking to be deprecated section as "Resolved", but did not state what the resolution was (and editors are not going to want to search through the history trying to find the explanation in an edit summary).

What I think needs to happen is that we need to form one proposal, declare that that is the final proposal (that is, all other options have been discussed and rejected), discuss it, revise it, come to a consensus on whether to accept or reject it, and then edit the MOS page and begin edits to the mainspace.

While the final discussion is going on, the "script assisted date/numbers" edits need to stop in the mainspace, and the Manual of Style should remain how it is. If no one objects, I'm going to set up a framework for this process. Of course, feel free to change it as necessary, but try not to deviate too much, lest the proposal again become lost amongst mountains of text. — OranL (talk) 19:04, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

Please see the page at Misplaced Pages:Manual of Style (dates and numbers)/Autoformatting proposal. If no one has any objections within the next six hours or so, I will transclude that page onto the bottom of this page. Please discuss changes to the discussion framework on its talk page.

I believe that the discussion needs a moderator to decide when a consensus is reached for each proposal. I suggest asking an uninvolved party to serve as moderator for make sure that further edit wars do not occur involving the resolution of these proposals. After all, that is what we're trying to prevent here. — OranL (talk) 20:07, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

Howdy all, OranL asked at AN about someone helping to mediate this discussion, and I've volunteered to help out, as long as no one objects to someone hanging around to keep the conversation going in a productive direction. Any objections? MBisanz 04:16, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

• I’ve been away for a while and am surprised to come and find MOSNUM locked down. What is wrong with the current wording(?):

It looks damned short and simple to me. Greg L (talk) 04:34, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

I was just wondering the same thing. --Philosopher  05:11, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

Yes, it seems to be a good time to have a moderated disussion about date formatting -- on the new page devoted to that.

A few days ago, the new subpage Date_autoformatting, was created. However, its exact wording remains under dispute. The earlier content on how to use date links work was moved from the main page to there, and a note that using the date autolinking mechanism was now discouraged.

Since the issues of (a) which date to use in each circumstance; (b) how autoformatted dates should work: should they produce links or not; and (c) should autoformatted dates even be used, instead of just typing dates in plaing text, are all related, I suggest the moderated discussion at Misplaced Pages:Manual of Style (dates and numbers)/Autoformatting proposal take all this on board. So let's continue this discussion there instead of here, OK?

Thanks for your offer to moderate, MBisanz.

I just archived all the date-related topics that was on this talk (except this one "Protected", and the following, "Autoformatting proposals discussion") to Archive D6. The page was already over 200 kB. Teemu Leisti (talk) 05:25, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

We've had the discussion (long and broad), we reached a decision, the arguments are very clear, we don't need all this continual revisiting. If someone has a new proposal, let them put it up and argue for it. Until this happens, things should stay as they are and be acted on. (Removing the transclusion since it seems pointless to set up a separate discussion page and then mirror it back here anyway.)--Kotniski (talk) 16:41, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

And why are we supposed to use a format nobody has written yet?

But, on substance, there are several issues. None of them, as far as I know, involves WP:Autoformatting, which is intended as a summary of the nature of autoformatting, without any guidance; that should be at MOSNUM, where other editors have a chance of finding it.

1. There is the question of whether linking dates for autoformatting is a good idea or not. Its inconveniences are on the summary page; a distinct majority here think it a bad idea, but there are a substantial number of dissentients. (The majority here could be consensus.)
2. If date-linking is a bad idea, what do we do about it? Several editors want to call it "deprecated"; some of them would like, I gather, to set up unlinking bots or scripts. I think it is a bad idea, but that this approach will be divisive and thus counter-productive. I would prefer to say it is "no longer encouraged" and refer editors to the reasons against. (But I don't think this rises to the level of needing page protection; if a majority wants to try "deprecation", let's see what happens.)
3. As another wording issue: what do we want to say, if anything, about value-added date-links which are not intended to autoformat? (Tony would probably say there aren't any, but I'm not sure anybody else would.) Can we leave this detail to WP:IAR? Septentrionalis PMAnderson 17:13, 30 August 2008 (UTC)
4. There is an entirely separate protest, maintained almost entirely by Skyring alone. He would like to require that all dates, except those dealing with the United States, be formatted 30 August 2008, whether they are linked or not. (This includes changing established formats; his main-space editing has been doing exactly this and little else.) We had a straw poll on this; nobody supported his position, and four of us opposed it.
5. There was a limited amount of amicable discussion of a proposal that articles in American English should use the American dating system, and articles in British English should use International, leaving mid-Atlantic articles to choose. The present language would be a corollary of this, since, by WP:ENGVAR, articles with a strong link to some English-speaking country should use the corresponding English. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 16:58, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

Spelling error needs correction

{{editprotected}} This text is in the section about date autoformatting:

Dates from before the introduction of the Gregorian calendar should not be expressed in the ISO format, which implies the dates are Gregorian. Also, conventionally formated dates from that era will normally be in Julian; they should not be wikilinked and autoformatted into ISO, which would constitute a false assertion they are Gregorian.

The bolded word is misspelled -- it should be "formatted", with 2 T's. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Auntof6 (talk • contribs)

And if anybody shows up for this, you might consider changing the protected tag to {{pp-dispute|expiry=August 31, 2008}}, as requested in the section above. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 18:34, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

 Done --Philosopher  19:36, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

Question

Now I've started reading over this issue, and am getting a bit confused, I see a section in the WP:MOSNUM page about autoformatting and a link to WP:Autoformatting that seems to contradict parts of itself. Could each party fill in what they think should be WP's guideline on date presentation, as it relates to autoformatting in the below sections. One user to a section, a new section for each proposal, please. MBisanz 21:41, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

No, too many editors are running around creating diverse places to present their views. I'm ignoring this place. --Gerry Ashton (talk) 21:51, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

Indeed. The issue was decided and has wide support and little opposition. This is just churning. Tony (talk) 02:56, 31 August 2008 (UTC)

A fresh start on DA

Having looked through the edit wars over the Date autoformatting subpage and noting the points made in disagreement, as well as having followed the issue here for quite a while and participated in it occasionally, I’d like to offer a “rough draft” revision of the DA subpage that to my mind’s eye seems to capture as much of everyone’s concerns as I best I can. I’ve also done so with an eye for what appears to be the relative degree of consensus for the various issues; as a rule, I’ve selected “softer” words instead of “harder” ones where a consensus is least evident. That is why I’ve used “discouraged” in preference to “deprecate” (which seems to often get misinterpreted as “forbidden” and taken as a call for a crusade for their removal – for which there isn’t such a strong consensus), and introduced “deprecate” in a more limited sense later on. I’ve also purposefully chosen to go with a lengthier version than the concise, bulleted one currently displayed. I’ve done so because this “deprecation” of usage will be better tolerated and less abused if explained, rather than just summarized.

I’m offering this as a fresh starting ground. I believe – and several people have noted – that there was no express language for the consensus to deprecate DA. Instead, the needed language was built through direct edits of the MOSNUM page, and it led to edit warring. The proper place for sparring, as we all know, is here on the Talk page.

The linking of dates purely for the purpose of autoformatting is strongly discouraged, because the use of these tools results in more disadvantages than advantages. This feature can only be seen by a tiny minority of Misplaced Pages’s readership: those registered editors who have chosen to configure their date preferences (My preferences → Date and time → Date format). This obscures the existence and extent of conflicting date styles in an article that is otherwise readily apparent to the majority of readers, thereby hindering correction of the problem.

Furthermore, the resulting links normally go to lists of historical trivia which usually have little or nothing to do with the subject of the article. The use of these formatting tools therefore tends to produce overlinked articles. All links from articles should be of high value to the reader; that is, following them should genuinely help the reader understand the topic more fully. Overlinking can negatively affect overall readability and appearance in articles which already have numerous high-value links.

In addition, dates from before the introduction of the Gregorian calendar should not be expressed in the ISO 8601 format, which was designed for use with the Gregorian calendar. Conventionally formatted dates from the pre-Georgian era will normally be in the Julian calendar format, and being wikilinked and autoformatted into would constitute a false assertion they are Gregorian dates.

To avoid disruption, however, this deprecation should not be taken as license for wholesale removal of existing links from articles currently employing them extensively. Such removal from a given article should follow a consensus to do so among the editors of that page.

Please critique it in the spirit in which it’s offered and with an eye toward compromise. Askari Mark (Talk) 22:40, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

I would say wikilink ISO 8601 rather than just ISO. I would also say "...extensively for Gregorian dates..." (addition bolded)because I think it is a good idea to conduct a campaign for the sole purpose of removing autoformatting from articles that use autoformatting on Julian dates. Ideally such a campaign would also insure the calendar used in the article is explicitly stated. --Gerry Ashton (talk) 23:01, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

Thanks, Gerry, good catch! That's the sort of input I'm looking for. I've incorporated your recommendations. Askari Mark (Talk) 23:37, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

The automatic removal from Julian dates is faintly silly. Stating the style explicitly on articles about the Middle Ages is utterly unnecessary; it would be bizarre to use Gregorian before it existed. Autoformatting was intended to switch back and forth between 30 August and August 30; I suspect most people use it that way; and that's perfectly safe. Anyone who chooses to autoformat to ISO does so at his own risk (and, like Woodstone, she may not care about Renaissance history). Please make that by consensus too. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 00:34, 31 August 2008 (UTC)

"Stating the style explicitly on articles about the Middle Ages is utterly unnecessary" is bullshit. Not everyone who would like to read an article about the middle ages knows about the convention for which calendar to use, nor do they necessarily know when the Gregorian calendar went into force in any given place. Also, I cannot find the design criteria for the autoformatting "feature" so I do not know what the intentions of its designers were. I would be interested in seeing a record of what they were thinking. --Gerry Ashton (talk) 00:58, 31 August 2008 (UTC)

That had been my understanding, too, PMA – until I began reading the recent debate over it and Gerry and others began indicating that it may not be so. Do you know someone sufficiently familiar with the code to tell us one way or the other? I’m copacetic with it either way; one of the reasons I wrote it in as a separate parenthetical note is so it can easily be removed if need be. Askari Mark (Talk) 01:08, 31 August 2008 (UTC)

See #How did we get here? on this page. Looking at the past versions of MOSNUM confirms that autoformatting was intended to settle dating disputes between the two conventional alphanumeric formats. In accordance with this, I am removing the parenthetical. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 20:55, 31 August 2008 (UTC)

This is an attempt to scuttle a genuine reform of a major formatting function that almost no one likes, by slowing its pace so that it will take decades rather than a few years, and will forever be patchy in it application.

"To avoid disruption, however, this deprecation should not be taken as license for wholesale removal of existing links from articles currently employing them extensively. Such removal from a given article should follow a consensus to do so among the editors of that page. (Exception: Date autolinks should be removed whenever they are found being used with non-Gregorian dates.)"

• Tony, I agree; you engage in outrageous and unfounded attacks when you do have a shadow of an argument. But your claim is a falsehood: I think that if we don't push things right away, we will be rid of autoformatting in a year. Going full speed ahead now will be damaging to the encyclopedia and is the only thing at all likely to delay this reform for decades. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 20:45, 31 August 2008 (UTC)

The argument seems to rely on (1) mixing up date warring and ISO with the decision here and elsewhere to get rid of DA, and (2) some kind of unstated personal discomfort at bold change. However, the current debate about the choice of format for third-party countries is a response to an issue that has always been there for our readers. There is no relationship with the current "edit wars" over choice of date format, except that the sudden realisation that DA has shielded WPians from seeing the mess of inconsistency and wrong global choices of format; this has concentrated people's minds on it, which is a good thing.

So, work out what you want with ISO dates, and decide on a guideline (or not) for the third-party format for dates, but don't try to confuse these issues with the removal of DA.

And why refer to "deprecation" in the quote above while pussy-footing about it in the opening sentence and requiring a long, convoluted generation of consensus at every single article to achieve the goal? You can't have it both ways. (And the bit about Gregorian dates begs the larger question while introducing muddy logic.)

As for "To avoid disruption", any bold improvement to WP could be framed as "disruption", and it is idle and manipulative to frame it thus without evidence of widespread opposition. There is none: show me, please, the raft of reversions of the date auditing that has been conducted over the past few weeks. And please face up to the strong—not mild—agreement of so many people, here and on the other pages I linked to during the debate. It keeps trickling in, like this:

Contributors should revile this attempt at sabotage. The proposed change does nothing to improve what is now a straightforward, concise statement. We need to grow up. Tony (talk) 02:51, 31 August 2008 (UTC)

Wikilinking dates was a kludge brought in to settle the date wars of some years ago. In all the time since then, no better method has been found. However, it is a kludge, and increasingly obvious. The two major disadvantages are:

1. It fills an article full of useless links. Click on a date link and most of the time you are taken to a page that has zero relationship with the original article.
2. It doesn't work for the 99% of Misplaced Pages users who are not registered with user accounts and date preferences.

We are writing an encyclopaedia, and our readers must be our main focus. We are presenting information to the wide world. so I'm totally in favour of removing date autoformatting. We get to see what the readers see, and we make the reader's experience better by removing a sea of useless links.

However, we now have to deal with renewed outbreaks of date wars, as editors, no longer shielded from date formats, see raw dates in a format they personally don't like. I think that for the removal of autoformatting to work, we've got to work out a solid solution on date formats. --Pete (talk) 05:37, 31 August 2008 (UTC)

Agree strongly with Tony and Pete. It isn't "disruption" to alter Misplaced Pages articles to bring them in line with what we've agreed is the right style; the disruption is tryin to stall this process in spite of the lack of any substanial arguments against it. Also I don't see that the current solution we have on date formats is in any way unsolid.--Kotniski (talk) 16:41, 31 August 2008 (UTC)

We shall see. I don't think it's unsolid; I think that authorizing mass implementation is a recipe for making, and keeping, this controversial, and that doing so will slow down acceptance immensely; festina lente, "make haste slowly", is very old and very good advice. It is consensus here to get rid of autoformatting is a good idea - if we proceed, page by page, for a few months, we will probably persuade the rest of Misplaced Pages to join this consensus. By that time other editors will have heard of the change, and (with luck and tact) most of them will agree with us or not care. At that point, stronger language and actions may be in order - or, if we convince enough people, unnecessary. If every editor thought it was the normal thing to delink dates, we'd be done without bots. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 20:40, 31 August 2008 (UTC)

Format choice

Three versions have been proposed:

• Articles on topics with strong ties to a particular English-speaking country should generally use the more common date format for that nation; articles related to Canada may use either format consistently.
  • Present text, widely approved here.
• Articles on topics with strong ties to a particular English-speaking country should generally use the more common date format for that nation; articles related to Canada may use either format consistently.

Articles related to other countries that commonly use one of the two acceptable formats above should use that format.

• This is what we used to have, and what Skyring reverts to.

• Articles clearly written in a national variety of English should generally use the more common date format for that nation; articles in Canadian English may use either format consistently. Articles on topics with strong ties to a particular English-speaking country will therefore normally use the corresponding date format.
  • Woodstone's idea discussed here. This would make articles in American use American dating; articles in a Commonwealth English (except Canadian) use international. So far nobody objects to this.

Comments? Septentrionalis PMAnderson 00:45, 31 August 2008 (UTC)

Perhaps if you were a little more truthful, we might find a solution agreeable to all. The "straw poll" you created was roundly condemned for being confusing. You left out my proposed wording, which received more support than yours. There are further examples in previous sections. I can understand why some people have strong feelings about date formats, but that's all the more reason to keep things cool. Quite obviously, what we don't have is consensus on this point, which is why I keep restoring the original wording, which at least had the benefit of remaining untouched for nine months. Perhaps we could look at things on which we do agree and build up consensus that way? --Pete (talk) 01:35, 31 August 2008 (UTC)

Just catching up on all the date change stuff so I may be a little behind here. But if this is going to change it might be a good rule of thumb to follow conventions similar to what are used at WP:ENGVAR for variant spellings. The biggest problem I see with eliminating the auto-formatting as it stands right now is that there are a bunch of articles where despite recommendations that date formats are a mismatch of ISO and other formats. This is seems especially common in reference sections where the date format may be prescribed vs the body text. If auto-formatting through links is not the best approach perhaps it might be possible to request an extension to wiki-media to provide an automatic formatting syntax that does not require links. PaleAqua (talk) 05:20, 31 August 2008 (UTC)

The conventions at WP:ENGVAR have long been cited for date formats, and should be the basis for settling disputes. The guts of it is "strong national ties to a topic", so we pick the variety of English to suit the topic. The Washington article is written in American English, the London article in British English, the Canberra article in Aussie English, complete with differences in spelling, punctuation and syntax. By and large, date formats follow the variety of English, and there is little disagreement over whether an article relating to the English-speaking world should use day-month year or month-day-year.

Problems arise when writing about topics linked to countries where English is not spoken. Obviously there is not a variety of English we can turn to for articles on Albania, Vietnam, Angola or Cuba. The convention is that the variety chosen by the first major contributor stands, and again, that has worked very well.

However, for non-English-speaking nations, date formats are independent of the language. Spain uses day-month-year, the Philippines month-day-year, and China the year-month-day ISO format. Because this is the English-language Misplaced Pages, we use the English-language month names for dates in articles for these countries, so the local language is not a factor.

In fact, the language is not a factor even for English-speaking nations. We know what date format each nation uses, and we use them. The variety of language does not determine the date format, nor vice versa.

What is useful in the WP:ENGVAR guidelines is the phrase about "strong national ties". If a nation uses one date format in preference to another, then we should use that date format in articles that have a strong national tie. The exception is for ISO dates, which are awkward when used in written text, though useful in tables and templates.

The parallel I draw is with units of measurement. We give priority in writing to miles over kilometres in nations that use miles in preference to kilometres, and vice versa. The language is immaterial. What counts is what is used in the country we are writing about.

One point repeatedly made is that there is no confusion between 7 December 1941 and December 7, 1941. Even if a reader prefers one format over the other, there is no doubt at all as to which day in history we are talking about.

I think that removing the language qualifier from the existing wording is all we need to do:

• Articles on topics with strong ties to a particular country should generally use the more common date format for that nation; articles related to Canada may use either format consistently.

I'd like to think that this is just common sense, but ironically I find more useful wisdom in WP:NOCOMMON, where it says, "Wikipedians come from diverse ethnic, religious, political, cultural and ideological backgrounds and have vastly different beliefs on everything from science to shoe shopping." That's the crux of the matter. We need to be tolerant, understanding and embracing of diversity, and if we write an article about an Italian or an American or a Angolan, it is common courtesy to use the forms of their country, to the best of our ability. --Pete (talk) 06:12, 31 August 2008 (UTC)

I find much to recommend Anderson's principle of aligning engvar with date format (with an explicit note that Canada-related articles may use either date format). It's simple, clear, and can leave a small crack for non-compliance where there are good reasons not to comply.

Venezuela apparently uses US English but international date formats. But you know what? I couldn't give a dump if US date formats are used in that article, because the article is written in English, not Spanish, and is for people who can read English; if a US editor happened to start the article, good on him or her—that should be the end of the matter. Sorry, Pete, I also don't care what system Italy uses, nor what system it did use in 1850, if that's the topic context. I'm keen to decide this issue and move on, so I call now for objections to this course of action. Unless someone comes up with a significant problem, I intend to insert this into MOSNUM in about two days' time. Tony (talk) 06:53, 31 August 2008 (UTC)

Venezuela uses US English???? I thought they used Spanish. For non-English-speaking nations, it is generally going to be a matter of personal opinion as to which version they use. I need only point to Japanese English, commonly known as Engrish, which defies categorisation. You might not care which date format a country uses, but for many people, not least the Wikipedians living in that country, it is important. We are trying, I hope, to find a solution for those who care. Those Wikipedians who just go with the flow aren't the ones who generate conflict. I think it is important that we short-circuit future unpleasantness. --Pete (talk) 07:12, 31 August 2008 (UTC)

Pete, Sandy was pretty insistent that this is the case, where English is used in Venezuala. But Sandy's in transit at the moment, so can't comment. Tony (talk) 09:23, 31 August 2008 (UTC)

But they speak Spanish in Venezuela. Any English is, like Engrish in Japan, going to be highly variable, depending on the background and the preference of the speaker. Hard, if not impossible, to find an objective answer for each country, especially if it's dependent on asking your friends for their opinions. And, more importantly, quite irrelevant as to the date format actually used in the country. If we are to make a choice on date format to use on a country by country basis, why not use the format the country uses, instead of basing our choice on the individual spelling preference of speakers of a minority non-official language? --Pete (talk) 10:06, 31 August 2008 (UTC)

And the dating format in Venezuelan Spanish should concern the Spanish Misplaced Pages, not us. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 20:32, 31 August 2008 (UTC)

If we are writing articles about Venezuela, we should use the format common in that country, so long as it can be expressed in English. We use the units of measurement common in Venezuela, we use the Venezuelan spelling of personal and place names, including diacritical marks not generally used in American English such as Hugo Chávez Frías, so why should we impose American Dating format on them if they don't use it?. Your proposal is out of line with established wikipractice. --Pete (talk) 21:37, 31 August 2008 (UTC)

Where did this come from?

The former versions of this page are quite clear. There was a controversy between two factions who wanted to use February 11, 1958 and 11 February 1958 respectively. Nobody advocated 1958 February 11; 1958-02-11 is even not mentioned as being one of the alternatives, although it is discussed later.

"To put an end to this debate, in July 2003, a new MediaWiki feature known as "dynamic dates" was implemented. This allows users to select in their user preferences which date format they prefer to see. Dates written in any of the above three formats are automatically converted to the user's preferred format as the page is displayed. The default is to leave it as written, although it may be slightly cleaned up and standardised."

That should be definitive. Anybody who wants to go back and see exactly when this language was introduced should feel free to do so. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 20:21, 31 August 2008 (UTC)

That does clarify what the editors of the Manual of Style were thinking. What the developers who implemented the "solution" were thinking is another matter. It would be interesting to know if autoformatting of ISO 8601 dates was done right from the beginning, or something tacked on later. --Gerry Ashton (talk) 21:02, 31 August 2008 (UTC)

Finally, can we arrive at a solution, please?

Here's a sequential four-test process to decide (in most cases, only the first one or two will be needed). They would replace the last two subsections in "Full date formatting", that is, "Strong national ties to a topic" and "Retaining the existing format".

Which format to use

Each of the following four tests should be applied in sequence until the format for an article is determined.

1. Does the article have strong ties to an anglophone country? If not, or Canada-related, or if related to more than one anglophone country ...
2. Which variety of English is the article written in? If unclear, or Canada-related ...
3. What is the existing formatting in the article? If significantly mixed ...
4. Use the original format by consulting the edit history.

NB, ties to "more than one anglophone country" are exemplified by a British actor who spent most of their career in the US. I've just audited the dates in such an article, actually.

"Support", "Object" with reasons, or "Comment", please:

• Support: Might be tedious sifting through to determine engvar. However, if that is unclear, you just go with the existing date format, or if it's significantly mixed, go with the format first inserted into the article. It's easy. Tony (talk) 06:53, 31 August 2008 (UTC)
• Object: Here's my test: Which date format does the country actually use? That's a lot simpler and more accurate than linking it to the variant spelling of a minority non-official language. --Pete (talk) 07:30, 31 August 2008 (UTC)

*Support: Wikipedians living in a foreign country may come to English WP to read an article, yet it seems to me that if they see the date format in their native format, whether day-month-year or month-day-year, it is secondary (if even that) to the substance of the article itself. They read WP to learn about a subject and can understand either formats dating convention. The validity of the information is what is most important. The style of the article aides the reader in following the information in a logical presentation. I believe as long as there is continuity in style throughout the article, it matters little to them whether they read 7 August 2008 or August 7 2008. They both mean the same date. The insistence of the importance of seeing nation specific dating conventions does not bear out. I have read many, many articles related to non-English speaking countries that use the month-day-year style and have remained stable in that style for MONTHS after editing. If an outcry truly existed to adhere to a non-English speaking nations dating convention, wouldn't those non-English speaking nation readers have edited the article to conform? The argument presented for this convention would suggest, yes, a very strong YES. But alas, these articles remain unchanged as written. Where is this outcry from non-English speaking readers, and why aren't they here standing up for their belief? I see ONE native English speaking editor carrying the torch of a phantom conflict.--«JavierMC»|Talk 08:37, 31 August 2008 (UTC)

I withdraw from this merry-go-round. It's ridiculous to try and leave an opinion/argument when a response like the one below by Pete is made to refute it. The discussion was about whether to adhere to a non-English speaking countries dating convention, and now we have auto-formatting thrown in the mix when it in itself is being debated for general removal as useless in continuity of style for 90% of the users. --«JavierMC»|Talk 19:48, 31 August 2008 (UTC)

• • I believe as long as there is continuity in style throughout the article, it matters little to them whether they read 7 August 2008 or August 7 2008. The reason why we had date autoformatting in the first place is because a lot of Wikipedians cared very strongly about this precise point and autoformatting was introduced to end the bickering. Hardly a phantom conflict. --~~
• Basically support but I don't see how it's supposed to differ substantially from the existing wording.--Kotniski (talk) 16:30, 31 August 2008 (UTC)
• Support in principle, since it is the same effect as Woodstone's proposal (the difference from the present language is that both proposals will institute national dating format on articles written in a national variety of English and the present wording won't); but this is going around Robin Hood's barn to achieve the same effect. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 20:27, 31 August 2008 (UTC)
  • The language of the existing proposal is Articles clearly written in a national variety of English should generally use the more common date format for that nation; articles in Canadian English may use either format consistently. Articles on topics with strong ties to a particular English-speaking country will therefore normally use the corresponding date format. This is, when combined with the strong national ties clause of WP:ENGVAR, equivalent to the above four tests. But if people want to make things more explicit, my only objection is length. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 21:04, 31 August 2008 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Manual of Style (dates and numbers)/Autoformatting proposal