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Wouldn't it be more prudent to delete entire history of India before independence and post it under a different article Combined India? It would atleast stop the war in Misplaced Pages over that? India argues it's India's history and Pakistan, Pakistan's...If only the Pakistanis accept that there was no Pakistan before 1947 and it's just a part of India, both having no right over the unified legacy...

India: Ancient Civilization vs Modern State

I'd like to know why in the case of the Misplaced Pages entry for China, the article is about China as a civilization, and offers links to modern political constituents of the same, whereas in the case of the India entry, we only have the article about the Republic of India. Can the entry for India likewise not consist of an article on Indian civilization? --SohanDsouza (talk) 13:21, 13 September 2008 (UTC)

Not a federal republic

Indian constitution explicitly states India is a union of states. Though many scholars opine that Indian constitution has some federal features, it cannot be called a federal republic.-Bharatveer (talk) 07:22, 3 September 2008 (UTC)

Ok, so what's the difference? =Nichalp «Talk»= 07:27, 3 September 2008 (UTC)

I have a faint memory of a discussion about this in "Constitutional Law of India" by Pandey. The author showed instances of concentration of power with the Central Government (Article 356, concurrent list, etc.,) and called India a "quasi-federal" country. -- Sundar 08:35, 3 September 2008 (UTC)

It is true that many scholars, especially early in India's republican history, opined that India was a quasi-federal republic, especially due to article 356 of the Constitution. However Katherine Adeney in Federalism in South Asia and Arjend Lijphart in Democracy and Diversity , argue that it is a federal country, among their arguments is that a 1994 Supreme Court ruling effectively nullified Article 356 (esp. its misuse). Lijphart did not rate India far behind the US in terms of federalism. I will scan and add an image on the Federalism article soon.I am invariant under co-ordinate transformations (talk) 17:06, 3 September 2008 (UTC)

To User:Fundamental metric tensor: Whether it is a Federal Republic or not, why is this fact being mentioned in the lead paragraph? Where is the substantial precedent in Misplaced Pages? Of the 15 other country FAs: Australia, Bangladesh, Belarus, Belgium, Cambodia, Cameroon, Canada, Chad, Germany, Indonesia, Israel, Japan, Pakistan, Peru, Turkey, only one, Cameroon, mentions the fact of it being a republic in the lead paragraph, and that too is used in place of "country,": "Cameroon is a unitary republic of central and western Africa. It is bordered by Nigeria to the west; ..." Except for Cameroon and Belgium, all other country FAs stick to geography in the lead paragraph. Also WP:COUNTRIES says, "The article should start with a good introduction, giving name of the country, location in the world, bordering countries, seas and the like. Also give other names by which the country may still be known (for example Holland, Persia)."

Why should this exception be made for India? Your sentence (if there is at all any consensus to add it in the lead) will make much more sense in the third paragraph than the first. The India page is not modeled syntactically on the Constitution of India. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 22:36, 3 September 2008 (UTC)

Well, the first few lines of this article should answer the question ... What is India ? Well, it is a country located in South Asia that is a parliamentary federal republic of 28 states ... I dont see the problem with the para as it stands. I am invariant under co-ordinate transformations (talk) 22:43, 3 September 2008 (UTC)

Also, note that India differs a lot from any of those countries, it constitution defines it as a Union of States, and that should definitely be pointed out in the lead. I am invariant under co-ordinate transformations (talk) 22:46, 3 September 2008 (UTC)

Apparently, Misplaced Pages either doesn't think that the first few lines should answer that question, or it thinks the answer is different; otherwise, the WP:COUNTRIES project page wouldn't be dishing out that recommendation. Also 15 out of 16 country FAs wouldn't have that format. True the United States (and, now Mexico, which seems to have caught the disease from El Norte) has that format, but it has remained shabbily written for the last two years that I have observed it. Apparently United Kingdom, France (in spite of the First French Republic), Republic of Ireland (in spite of its name), Greece (in spite of Plato), Italy (in spite of Res publica), Spain, Poland, Germany, Egypt, Israel, Mongolia, South Korea, New Zealand, Brazil, ... none of them feel compelled to answer the question in that fashion. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 23:04, 3 September 2008 (UTC)

Again the Misplaced Pages India page is not modeled syntactically on the Constitution of India! Are you saying that other countries' constitutions don't talk about their countries as unions of states? Since the Constitution of India was substantially copied from the Government of India Act of 1935, it is unlikely that this is an original creation. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 23:07, 3 September 2008 (UTC)

Here is the first line of the Constitution of Brazil: "Article 1. The Federative Republic of Brazil, formed by the indissoluble union of the states and municipalities and of the Federal District, is a legal democratic state and is founded on: ..." Here, in contrast, are the first few lines of the Misplaced Pages page Brazil: "Brazil (Template:Lang-pt), officially the Federative Republic of Brazil (Template:Lang-pt) Audio file "Brazil.ogg" not found, is a country in South America. It is the fifth largest country by geographical area, the fifth most populous country, and the fourth most populous democracy in the world." Fowler&fowler«Talk» 23:22, 3 September 2008 (UTC)

F&F, I am not saying that a wikipedia article mandatorily define a country the way its Constitution defines it, but that certainly seems to me to be a good way of doing things. Is it not true that India's Constitution defines it to be a Union of States ? What the Constitution of Brazil says is not relevant here, if the editors for that article feel that they should describe their country as per its legal definition, then they will, if they dont, then they will not. Whether the Indian Constitution was copied or not is completely irrelevant.

The federality of the government (however ambiguous) and the nature of its states define the Republic of India, which is what this article is about. As such, they should both be pointed out in the lead rather than pompous self-glorification like 'most populous democracy' (which is far more controversial). I am invariant under co-ordinate transformations (talk) 23:51, 3 September 2008 (UTC)

Also see my discussion with Nichalp above (First Line), I did not edit without discussion. I am invariant under co-ordinate transformations (talk) 23:52, 3 September 2008 (UTC)

You can come up with all the most cogent personal reasons why you think that line should be in the lead paragraph, where all other content is about geography, and not in the third paragraph, which has content about the government, but the precedent in Misplaced Pages is not for your edit. You yourself in a post of June 26, 20008 felt that the form of government belonged to the infobox or later paragraphs:

"Sunray, just wanted to let you know that I mostly support F&F stand on the intro paragraph for India. From a technical standpoint, form of government is an administrative detail , mentioned in the infobox and described in subsequent paragraphs. Also, in my own personal opinion although my country is more democratic than many others at the same income level, (See ), it is not a democracy at the same level as say Germany or Australia."I am invariant under co-ordinate transformations (talk) 22:58, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

And, what do you mean by "pompous self-glorification like 'most populous democracy' (which is far more controversial)?" We had a long mediation on those very words in June 2008, and the mediation has endorsed that edit. The mediation was widely advertised and after is conclusion there was further discussion on it on this very page, and you were given ample opportunity to disagree with that edit; you chose not only to not disagree with it, not only to make a supportive statement above that I have just quoted, but also to state explicitly that the "form of government belongs to the infobox or later paragraphs!" So, what gives?

The discussion you quote with Nichalp is not complete. Nichalp said (in his succinct unobtrusive style) pretty much everything I have said above, including, "Thirdly, Union of States should be in lower case. If the need be, the political structure can come lower in the lead. =Nichalp «Talk»= 18:01, 16 August 2008 (UTC)" and again, "That seems better, but where do you plan to add it? =Nichalp «Talk»= 14:43, 20 August 2008 (UTC)" Your persistent unresponsiveness to his suggestion of placing the text lower down in the lead resulted, as I see it, in his giving up on the discussion. I don't want to speak for Nichalp, but that doesn't sound like agreement to me! As I see it, you have a lot of explaining to do, not least for your own statements of two months ago. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 15:45, 4 September 2008 (UTC)

Since Nichalp did not disagree with my edits, I assumed that he agreed with them. I have not made a single edit on which I have not consulted Nichalp. As for, your question. There is a difference between a form of government and the structure of a nation. India is made up of its states, which as per its Constitution share power at the centre, i.e. it is federal, this is a fact without any doubt. Now how this power is shared and how well the country lives up to its Constitution, i.e. whether it is a democracy or not is a different matter is another matter which can be discussed later. I supported you on the point that saying that 'India is the worlds most populous democracy' is POV, but what I am arguing for here is different. That India is union of states is not an administrative detail, it is part of India's definition. I am invariant under co-ordinate transformations (talk) 16:09, 4 September 2008 (UTC)

There is nothing called the "structure of a nation," only the structure of a nation's economy, or political institutions, .... All those belong to the third paragraph. ... and many scholars consider "federal" to be a form of government and apply it to Canada, Australia, Germany, Pakistan, Venezuela, Ethiopia, Iraq, Brazil, Sudan, (in addition to the United States and Mexico) (although not too many scholars apply it to India at least in that Google Scholar search), yet none of the first mentioned country pages say anything about it in their lead paragraph. As for Nichalp, we'll let him weigh in again. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 19:52, 4 September 2008 (UTC)

India is made up of its constituent states, is this a fact or not ? Is this not the first line of its Constitution, which legitimizes its existence. I dont see the point of your google search, there seems to be enough academic literature on federalism in India. Here's what Lijphart says, "Only federal Australia and Canada are closer to the US than India is, and federal Germany is approximately equidistant.", Pg 20. I am invariant under co-ordinate transformations (talk) 00:22, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

Why are you only answering the tangential part of my remarks? I have now weeded out the fluff: There is nothing called the "structure of a nation," only the structure of a nation's economy, or political institutions, or administrative subdivisions, or .... All those belong to the third paragraph. As for the "structure of a nation" (federal) being different from "form of government," many scholars consider "federal" to be a form of government. Your distinction is false. As for Nichalp, we'll let him weigh in again. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 17:28, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

PS What you call "structure of a nation" is really the "structure of a nation's administrative sub-divisions." The constituent states are only administered differently; without the provincial administrations, the states would have no meaning. Why should that discussion belong to a paragraph about geography? Fowler&fowler«Talk» 17:34, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

section break

I'm not sure what the nitty gritties of a federal republic is. Could someone please explain the details to me? =Nichalp «Talk»= 18:16, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

Hi Nichalp, Well, federalism is a "system of the government in which sovereignty is constitutionally divided between a central governing authority and constituent political units (like states or provinces). Federalism is the system in which the power to govern is shared between the national and state governments, creating what is often called a federation." (Misplaced Pages page).

That India is a federation, however, is disputed by many scholars, including the framer of the Indian constitution, B. R. Ambedkar, who said, "the Constitution of India—the present Constitution enacted in November 1949—is designed to be federal in normal times and unitary in emergencies." Here are two more scholars:

• • "the division of powers between the Union government and the States in the Indian Constitution (and that is the crux of a federation) is more apparent than real, for it is within the power of the Union government both in emergencies (articles 352-60) and in normal times (articles 200, 201, and 249) to bring the entire administration of the country under its unitary control. Thus the basic principle of the constitution is not federalism but decentralized unitarism or, in other words unitarism with a high degree of decentralization of powers in favor of the states." (Gangal, S. C. "An Approach to Indian Federalism," Political Science Quarterly, volume 77, number 2, 1962, pp. 248-253.)
  • "The roots of Indian federalism can be traced to the British colonial regime. The unsuccessful working of their unitary system led the British to introduce a federal system during the last eight decades of their rule, and ultimately, "the Act of 1935 served to perpetuate a belief in the inevitability of federalism."(Rajashekara, H. M. (1997) "The Nature of Indian Federalism: A Critque", Asian Survey, volume 37, number 2, pp.245-253.)
  • However, after the constitution was drafted in 1949, "Many members of the Constituent Assembly vociferously attacked the center-oriented federalism that was adopted. H. V. Kamath characterized it as a "centralized federation with a facade for parliamentary democracy," and Damodar Swarup called it "a unitary constitution in the name of a federation." K. Hanumanthaiah, who represented the Princely State of Mysore, remarked: "Here is a Constitution which we say is a federal constitution but which in essence is almost a unitary Constitution ... This was not the intention with which we started constitution-making." Leading scholars on federal government also have not regarded India's system as true federalism. According to Ashok Chandra, it is a "unitary constitution," and various foreign scholars have called it a quasi-federation, an administrative federation, organic federalism, and a territorial federation." (ibid)
  • "Under a prefectorial federal system, the federal (central) government has overriding and enormous powers, not only to command and control states or provinces but also to stultify their autonomy and dismiss their governments. In this sense, Indian federalism may be characterized as a prefectorial federal system." (ibid)
  • "The theory and practice of Indian federalism substantiate the thesis that the Union government functions under a prefectorial federalism that gives it a commanding position and overriding powers. The existence of states and the very survival of their elected governments is dependent upon the will of the Union government. The single Constitution for the whole country (except Jammu and Kashmir), the unilateral power of Parliament to amend it, the provision for supersession of state governments and centrally appointed state governors, the discretionary powers of governors to reserve state bills for consideration of the President and his veto power over such bills, the affluence of the Union government, the vertical planning system, and the centralized party system have been mainly responsible for the aberration, distortion, and perversion of Indian federalism." (ibid.)

I had originally not paid much attention to federalism itself, but rather to where such a statement belonged in the lead, but in light of the papers I have just looked at, I have to agree with user:Bharatveer that claiming that India is a federal republic does not belong in the lead. Regards, Fowler&fowler«Talk» 19:05, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

PS In fairness to user:FMT, Britannica does say in this fact sheet for India: "Form of government: multiparty federal republic with two legislative houses (Council of States ; House of the People )" So, it does call it "federal," but regards it as a "form of government," which according to user:FMT himself/herself should belong either to an infobox or later paragraph. (see his explanation above of his previous comments of June 2008) Fowler&fowler«Talk» 19:20, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

PPS Encarta, on the other hand, makes no mention of federalism or "republic" in its lead, but mentions it it in its Government section with these words, "The Republic of India is a federal republic, governed under a constitution and incorporating various features of the constitutional systems of the United Kingdom, the United States, and other democracies. The power of the government is separated into three branches: executive, parliament, and a judiciary headed by a Supreme Court. Like the United States, India is a union of states, but its federalism is slightly different. The central government has power over the states, including the power to redraw state boundaries, but the states, many of which have large populations sharing a common language, culture, and history, have an identity that is in some ways more significant than that of the country as a whole." I personally think that this fact belongs to the infobox or to the Government section, but if it has to be introduced in the lead, it belongs to the third paragraph (in my view). Fowler&fowler«Talk» 19:27, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for the explanation F&F. Whew that was a lot of reading to do and also cross-referencing the articles of the constitution. You do seem to have tons of sources! As far as federal/federalism I was never sure about the difference, so did not really actively comment. Not that I gave up on replying to FMT. Going through the articles of the constitution (350-360), and 200/1,250 I do believe there is merit for what you say, where the centre has overwhelming powers to 'take over' a state, rather than a pure devolution of powers. On hindsight, it would be better if the topic on "federal" be kept off the lead per WP:LEAD. Having it in the lead would mean giving an unnecessary lengthy explanation; something more suited for the government section. =Nichalp «Talk»= 19:55, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

I've created a subpage User:Fowler&fowler/Federalism_in_India with more sources just in case any one here is in a masochistic mood.  :) My sense is that constitutionally India has an "asymmetric federalism." Unlike the U.S., which is "an indestructible union of indestructible states," India has only an indestructible union. In other words, the kind of plebiscite that took place in Canada over Quebec a few years ago, would be unlikely in India. It seems though that in the last 20 years, as a result of regional parties becoming stronger, federalism in India has increased in practice. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 11:28, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

What effect does this have on laws? For example Kashmir does not follow the Indian Penal Code, and Goa has its own civil code. Now, the Quebec plebiscite may not happen in India, but does the Union of Government of India have de facto control over India? Large parts of NE India (and Naxal-controlled areas) are under the control of parallel governments. Constitutionally, states of NE India can be taken over by the central government, but the ground situation differs. Food for thought, although outside the scope of the topic. =Nichalp «Talk»= 11:44, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

Yes, I see your point, and, from a cursory look at the literature, this "enforced by reality" federalism is being increasingly studied. The denouement, if it works out peacefully, could be fascinating. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 16:42, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

Speaking of a Quebec-like situation, it would be interesting to see if United Nations Security Council Resolution 47 would be ever implemented. =Nichalp «Talk»= 15:21, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

Please see F&F's talk page, More on Federalism in India, where I have presented a strong case for India being federal. I am invariant under co-ordinate transformations (talk) 18:29, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

Reply to Nichalp: Yes, I don't know either. I reread the actual UN resolution 47 on wikisource and was reminded again how big a part of that resolution the plebiscite was and how much care had been taken by the Security Council to flesh it out. It is true that the Pakistanis didn't withdraw their irregulars, but there was clearly stalling on the Indian side too, since they were aware how Kashmir would go in a plebiscite. The issue is complicated now because three generations of Indians have grown up with a map of India crowned with Kashmir that they have internalized and great pride in Muslim-majority Kashmir being a part of democratic and secular India. The plebiscite—since it would inevitably bring religion to the fore—would be seen by many in India as a negation of the very foundation of their nation. We'll see ... Fowler&fowler«Talk» 14:54, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

So, generations of Indians have 'internalized and take great pride in Muslim-majority Kashmir being part of democratic and secular India'. Oh really ! So how come we dont seem to take pride in the Muslims around the country, indeed we seem to resent them, see Gujarat riots and Mumbai riots. Not just the riots, but the fact after both incidents the majority voted for the instigators shows the hollowness of these claims. Done even get me started on the treatment of North Easterners, Dalits, women and even South Indians. Why havent generations of Indians internalized the fact that they and their government have to abide by their Constitution ? I am invariant under co-ordinate transformations (talk) 18:51, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

(unindent)  :) I didn't quite mean it that way (although I should have chosen my words better). I guess I meant at least some Indians take pride in Muslim-majority Kashmir being a part of democratic and secular India, since without Kashmir, India would appear more "Hindu" administratively: even though the Muslim population of Kashmir is small compared to the overall Muslim population of India, it is the only state with a Muslim majority. ... But this discussion (being a can of worms) belongs elsewhere. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 14:41, 9 September 2008 (UTC)

A proposal

I was asked via email to weigh in on this debate, so, getting back to federalism: the general academic consensus is that India functioned as a quasi-federal centralist state until the early 1990s, but has since then been growing increasingly federalist. It's quite important to note that the Constitutional division of powers between Centre and State hasn't changed, what has changed is the way those powers are actually exercised. The literature (and it's huge, but Echeverri-Gent's work gives a good overview) identifies a number of factors behind this shift - most prominently, economic liberalisation and the loss of the Centre's economic power, the decline of the INC (and of the relativley higher authority / legitimacy that national parties and leaders used to have), the increased political power of lower castes, the activism of the Supreme Court, the rise of regional parties, and the coalitionalisation of the central government. Anyway, given all this, it's simplistic - and misleading - to blandly say that India is "federal" or "unitary." It isn't inherently either, as should be seen from the fact that the balance of power between the centre and the states has been significantly more dynamic than would be possible under either setup. My suggestion would be to drop any mention of "federal" or "unitary" from the lede, and change the first paragraph of the section on "Government" to:

"The Constitution of India, the longest and the most exhaustive constitution of any independent nation in the world, came into force on January 26, 1950. The preamble of the constitution defines India as a sovereign, socialist, secular, democratic republic. India has a bicameral parliament operating under a Westminster-style parliamentary system. Its form of government was traditionally described as being 'quasi-federal' with a strong centre and weak states, but it has grown increasingly federal since the late 1990s as a result of political, economic and social changes."

This also need to go in the entry on India in the article on Federalism. I am invariant under co-ordinate transformations (talk) 00:24, 13 September 2008 (UTC)

It would probably be quite useful to add a section on "Centre-state relations" to Government of India, with the sort of detail User:Fundamental metric tensor,

Question about the introduction paragraphs

Could someone please tell me why the first section of the article has this written within it " India has the world's twelfth largest economy at market exchange rates and the fourth largest in purchasing power. Economic reforms have transformed it into the second fastest growing large economy; however, it still suffers from high levels of poverty, illiteracy, and malnutrition "

1. India is the world's fastest growing FREE MARKET economy.

2. Countries that are poorer than India on a gdp per capita basis, such as sri lanka, bangladesh, pakistan, and several african countries. Please take a look on their wikipedia pages within their introduction paragraphs. NO WHERE do they write " still suffers from high levels of poverty illiteracy etc " like the India page has written. My point is not to hide this info, my point is that information should be written about elsewhere and not in the introductory paragraphs of the article. Because i've noticed every other countries Misplaced Pages page talks about the good segments of that particular country. Whilst the India page in the introductory paragraph hasn't done justice to the country at all. Where does it talk about India being home of the oldest school of medicine in the world (ayurveda) home to to the oldest martial art in the world (kalaripayattu). None of this is POV, every other countries wiki intro has talked of the feats that country has done. Why can't the India page? --82.47.218.186 (talk) 10:44, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

1) It is incorrect to claim that India is the worlds fastest growing 'free market' economy because many would argue that China also follows a free market system (with 'Chinese' characteristics). India is certainly the second fastest growing large economy (atleast until recently), although this is from a relatively small base.

2) The thing is that poverty and illiteracy are present in India on such a large scale that they overwhelmingly (and rightly in my opinion) dominate discourse on the country. India accounts for a large percentage of the poor, uneducated and severely oppressed people (Dalits, women) in the world, so this has to be pointed out. Misplaced Pages is not an advertising machine, so there is no reason why the intro should contain 'the good points' of the country, only the most notable ones. I am invariant under co-ordinate transformations (talk) 13:40, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

Hello, thank you for your response :) I think you seem to have misunderstood my question. I never said that the article should not contain negative facts about India, on the contrary i am of the opinion that to emancipate or liberate a nation from evils those evils must be publicised. By all means the article should contain facts on poverty, illiteracy etc. The point i was trying to elucidate was, why do you go out of your way to mention those " negative points " in the introductory paragraphs of the India page when if you take a look at any of the countries which are not as developed as India and economically poorer on many levels such as somalia, uganda etc none of them mention the negative points of their respective countries in the introductory paragraph. I never said wikipedia is for advertising good points either. I merely said if you're going to talk about negative in the introductory paragraphs you should mention some good points too like every other countries wiki page. Misplaced Pages is not a place to project certain indian user's inferiority complexes to the world.. It is a place to promulgate facts good and bad and not just talk of the ills.

As for China being a free market economy. True or false? China is a communist nation? Thus until it subscribes to a democratic model of government it can't ever be considered a free market economy by other governments.

India has a lot of oppressed people you say such as dalits, the majority of indigenous people in several countries are/were severely oppressed it isn't just an India issue. The native red indians of america were oppressed far more than any dalit, the aboriginals of Australia too. In India today dalits receive social privileges that no other community receives such as reservation in universities and economic help from the government. As for women in India being oppressed that varies between communities, some matrilineal communities in India such as the bunts/nairs/tulus gave all their property/wealth/inheritance to their women only andwomen were given the most power as the rulers of the household. The current president of India is a woman too, yet you don't want to bring any of that... Let's just talk of the negative points right, since that is so encyclopedic. Even though women in India are treated far better than the arab/muslim world, yet their wiki pages don't even mention the women issue.

You see all im saying is both sides of the story should be told. If you want to talk about the poor, why don't you also write in the article that India has more billionaires on the world's top 20 richlist than any other country 4 to be precise (forbes.com) --82.47.218.186 (talk) 14:21, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

Hi, so you mean to say that to portray only a positive aspect constitutes to be neutrally written? Are not poverty etc, hard facts? =Nichalp «Talk»= 14:37, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

Hi IP, The number of billionaires is not an economic indicator and not used in global economic classification. As for your remark, "Countries that are poorer than India on a gdp per capita basis, such as sri lanka," for 2007 India's per capita income was $2,659, while Sri Lanka's was $4,079. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 16:24, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

Seriously now, do the people replying even read what i wrote? You seem to be educated people, so dont take offence when i say for intelligent people like yourselves your comprehension levels seem to be lacking. Since i never once said writing about positive points alone equals a neutrally written article. I did say if you're going to say in the introduction that India is home to many poor people, illiteracy, malnutrition etc YOU SHOULD INDEED WRITE THAT but you should also say there are some of the richest people in the world in India alongside some of the poorest in the world. That is called total knowledge, seeing both sides of the spectrum.

The guy above who corrected me on sri lanka's gdp per capita. Thank you, i stand corrected i think i was looked at older stats than the ones you looked at. But that doesn't change the point i was making, no other wiki page for a country mentions poverty, malnutrition and other negative aspects in the first introduction they do it later on in the article where it belongs. I don't see the point in correcting one dust particle of info i gave when you haven't bothered to grasp the full picture, since you didn't address anything else i mentioned. I'm not trying to propound that india is a rich nation because thats a downright lie, India is a developing nation. What i am trying to postulate here is that India is a land of extremes some of the poorest people in the world are Indians and also some of the richest in the world too. If you just write about the poor in the introduction not only is it pov it is also non factual and gives readers a false impression. Take a look at the Somalia page, the Somalian gdp per capita is 600 dollars whilst India's is 2700 and tell me where their introduction talks of poverty, malnutrition like the India page http://en.wikipedia.org/Somalia --82.47.218.186 (talk) 17:22, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

Well India might be a land of extremes, but one of the extremes (deprivation) overwhelms the other in sheer scale. There might be 30 billionaires in India, but there are 800 million living on less than 2 $ a day. The impression that the vast majority of the Indian population suffers from malnutrition, diseases and severe economic and social oppression is completely true, whats so false about it ?I am invariant under co-ordinate transformations (talk) 18:34, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

The cia world fact book and other sites proclaim that 25 percent of the population in India live under the poverty line as per 2007 est https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/in.html, it's probably less now. India has a population of around 1.2 billion as per the 2008 est. Your first post saying China is a free market economy was silly enough (funnily enough you didn't talk about that again) but now you seem to have difficultly counting too. Is 25 percent of 1.2 billion 800 million? No, it is 300 million. In reference to all those people living on a dollar a day. If you had any knowledge of economies or quantitative behavioral finance you would realise due to currency divergences and differences in currencies it isn't accurate to judge a persons salary in India in comparison to a dollar or a pound or an external currency. Because for a labour class working class citizen in India a dollar a day would be sufficient for food water electricity and shelter and everything he needs bar a car. Judging one currency with another currency is like comparing coconuts with bananas. Everything is much cheaper to produce in India hence living expenses are exponentially cheaper. In global terms even the burgeoning middle class in India only earns 10-20 dollars (on average) a day but that's enough for them to have a car a good house or apartment and ample electronic items/ gadgets and overall a good standard of living. As for your post above saying china is a free market economy here is an article from the wall street journal saying China is nowhere near to being a free market economy http://www.carnegieendowment.org/publications/index.cfm?fa=view&id=15750 so this proves that India is the world's fastest growing free market economy. In future be kind enough to back up your claims with credible sources or don't bother saying anything. Thanks 82.47.218.186 (talk) 10:50, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

Sir, here's another indicator of the high levels of poverty in India,

• Template:Quoter

• Template:Quoter

• Another indicator of the Malnutrition The Times of India: Malnutrition worse than sub-Saharan Africa

--KnowledgeHegemonyPart2 16:53, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

Please take this part of the discussion to Talk:Poverty in India. =Nichalp «Talk»= 19:09, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

Thank you for the website links knowledgehegemony. However i was never refuting India's poor infact i agree with everything people have posted in response to my question. However your sources and your links you provided are obsolete and outdated they are from (2005) 55percent of people in India are not under the poverty line. the cia world fact book (2007) under the economy section says 25 percent of the population is under the poverty line https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/in.html and here is a recent updated site that shows how many people under the poverty line http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/eco_pop_bel_pov_lin-economy-population-below-poverty-line All i was saying is, Certain states in the US have the highest stats of rape/murder/alcoholism in the world. The us as a nation has more external debt than any other nation 10 times more than India. None of this is written in the introduction of the US wiki page is it? So why do you write negative facets of India on the Indian wiki intro. Sources to back up what im saying http://www.babylontoday.com/national_debt_clock.htm http://www.treasurydirect.gov/NP/BPDLogin?application=np http://zfacts.com/p/461.html 82.47.218.186 (talk) 10:51, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

Once again, facts are reported in a wikipedia article on the basis of their notability, this is not a competition between countries to see which one can be trashed/glorified more. I am invariant under co-ordinate transformations (talk) 00:59, 9 September 2008 (UTC)

Demographics Sections needs to Show Urban Areas

Hi Gentle Folk of India Wiki page,

The demographics sections is showing political jurisdictions by giving a list of cities, for want of administrative effectiveness certain corporations choose to delink their urban nodes as separate municipalities. As a direct result their city limits would be reduced hence a city based estimate of population does not give the actual floating polulation in an urban area neither does it explain the demographics ( urban/rural) of that area. At this outset dont you guys feel that a list of 'urban areas' would give the better projection to this section.

I was able to find an internal article on urban areas List_of_urban_areas_by_population

Cheers, --Mel Vilander (talk) 14:18, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

Per a request, a template for this purpose has been made and is located at Template:Urban areas in India by population Adam McCormick (talk) 23:00, 31 July 2008 (UTC) Not sure if another template was needed since this already exists. In any case, I'm not sure how accurate the new template is – it seems to be missing Chennai. AreJay (talk) 23:35, 31 July 2008 (UTC) Yes this new template is missing 'chennai ' but it is a human error, it does exist in the original list4. I would try to request an updation for the template. As for the difference between the ' urban area template' and the list of metropolitan areas5 is the same as cities list. Metropolitan areas are also a list of political juristrictions just that they are bigger groupings formally administred by the government. The significance of urban areas is that it would project the actual demographics of the big cities of india which is more valuble for our article. Ofcourse this is open for discussion.

Greets --Mel Vilander (talk) 14:04, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

Folks please check out the template Template:Urban areas in India by population it is correct now, if we reach a consensus we can edit the demographics section.--Mel Vilander (talk) 07:36, 13 August 2008 (UTC)--Mel Vilander (talk) 08:10, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

Demographics Sections needs to Show Urban Areas

Hi Gentle Folk of India Wiki page,

The demographics sections is showing political jurisdictions by giving a list of cities, for want of administrative effectiveness certain corporations choose to delink their urban nodes as separate municipalities. As a direct result their city limits would be reduced hence a city based estimate of population does not give the actual floating polulation in an urban area neither does it explain the demographics ( urban/rural) of that area. At this outset dont you guys feel that a list of 'urban areas' would give the better projection to this section.

I was able to find an internal article on urban areas List_of_urban_areas_by_population

Cheers, --Mel Vilander (talk) 14:18, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

Per a request, a template for this purpose has been made and is located at Template:Urban areas in India by population Adam McCormick (talk) 23:00, 31 July 2008 (UTC) Not sure if another template was needed since this already exists. In any case, I'm not sure how accurate the new template is – it seems to be missing Chennai. AreJay (talk) 23:35, 31 July 2008 (UTC) Yes this new template is missing 'chennai ' but it is a human error, it does exist in the original list4. I would try to request an updation for the template. As for the difference between the ' urban area template' and the list of metropolitan areas5 is the same as cities list. Metropolitan areas are also a list of political juristrictions just that they are bigger groupings formally administred by the government. The significance of urban areas is that it would project the actual demographics of the big cities of india which is more valuble for our article. Ofcourse this is open for discussion.

Greets --Mel Vilander (talk) 14:04, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

Folks please check out the template Template:Urban areas in India by population it is correct now, if we reach a consensus we can edit the demographics section.--Mel Vilander (talk) 08:12, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

Comment, could you remove one of the duplicate sections? I have some questions: Why have fifteen cities been selected? An arbitary number? Second, why are the titles red? And third, ire fifteen cities really needed on this page? I think it's an overkill. =Nichalp «Talk»= 13:40, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

Why is their no mention of Aryans?

I have been asking this question for a while and I get labeled as a troll. But why is their no mention (if im wrong my bad yo) of India being home to the Aryan people? I mean Aryans were Hindu, the swastika comes from India, their mentioned in Indian religious scripture, they have links to India, and some people (like myself) think they came from India. And yet this article barley even mentions things about Aryans? I mean their mentioned in Irans article and Afghanistans article, and yet not in India's article? And India is right by Iran and Afghanistan. ARYAN818 (talk) 15:36, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

Should we just make a disclaimer at the top of this talk page, that this article is here to present notable, cited facts about the Republic of India, and not an ego enhancing 'India is great' advertisement ? Cause, this just keeps coming up all the time. As far, as 'Aryan818' is concerned, can you furnish reliable citations that show that all (or most) Indians are 'Aryans' ? Maybe their 'Aryan' ancestry is important to the Iranians, but that is certainly not the case for India. The word Aryan is not mentioned in the Constitution. I am invariant under co-ordinate transformations (talk) 05:09, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

India is great advertisement? That's your response to me? You think that's a logical response from you?......And you want facts? Well Havnt I given some facts in the past? What do you have to say about the fact, that I have given facts? What do you have to say about that?..............But ok no big deal, you want facts? I'll give you facts.........Please tell me which of my facts are wrong ok?/........1 - The word Aryan is a Sanskrit name . 2 - Aryans are mentioned in Indian religious scripture. 3 - The swastika sighn, used by Aryans, is said to have been first used in India. 4 - Sanskrit, a language used by Aryans, is a language of India. 5 - Aryans did follow Hinduism, a religion in India. 6 - Aryan evidence is found in India. 7 - According to the CIA world factbook website, over 70% of India is of Indo-Aryan heritage. 8 - Indo-Aryan, means, Indian-Aryan......Are these facts good enough?......And another thing id like to ask you.....YOu mentioned that maybe Aryans are important to Iranians, but not Indians.....Where do you come up with this? ARe you Indian? Cus I am. Have you heard of the Arya Samaj? Im not saying EVERY Indian knows or cares about this, but some do. And I am one of them......And also....Even if im wrong, and no Indian cares about being an Aryan, so what? Facts are still facts, and their is a connection with India and Aryans. ARYAN818 (talk) 19:17, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

I have a question about the people who rule this article

Why is it ok to mention that India is home to vast empires but if I add the word palaces, that gets erased? I also want to put down temples or kingdoms, I assume those would get taken out also. Why? ARYAN818 (talk) 03:27, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

You need to wait for someone to respond to your previous comment before you post something rude like this. BlackPearl14 04:14, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

ALright another strange comment. What did I say that was rude? ARYAN818 (talk) 19:03, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

It was taken down because the one word you added changed the intent of a sentence that had come to stand as a result of consensus. As has been mentioned during one of your previous editing episodes, please make sure that there's consensus before you make such changes. Thanks AreJay (talk) 13:36, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

Ok fair enough. Now can you tell me what was wrong with adding that one word? Im very curious what was wrong about it? Did i say something non factual? Was it offensive? Tell me. ARYAN818 (talk) 19:03, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

By rude, I meant "the people who rule this article." No one owns the article. People just get together and write the article! BlackPearl14 23:14, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

Well aren't their people or person who decide what stays and what goes? I mean I can make an edit and it might get taken out 71.106.84.146 (talk) 02:07, 13 September 2008 (UTC)

Harvard reference Template

The Reference section uses the Harvard reference template, which is depreciated. It should be replaced immediately with the cite book templates. Kensplanet (talk) 19:37, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

Notable South Indian kingdoms

Among the South Indian kingdoms, the three that are most notable, as measured by the number of scholarly references (in Google Scholar), are, in historical order: Chola, Pallava, and Vijayanagara Empire. Here is a list of the kingdoms and the number of scholarly references in Google Scholar (I searched in "social science, arts, humanities" and the search string was "<Name> OR <Alternate Name>, South India, history."):

• Vijayanagara Empire: 1,470 scholarly references
• Chola: 1,440 scholarly references
• Pallava: 703 scholarly references
• Pandya: 423 scholarly references. Since "Pandya" is common last name, here I had to restrict the search string further by adding "Tamil" OR "Malalayam" since their empire primarily included Tamil and Malayalam speaking regions.
• Satavahana: 326 scholarly references
• Chalukya: 320 scholarly references
• Chera: 306 scholarly references
• Hoysala: 282 scholarly references
• Rashtrakuta: 202 scholarly references
• Bahamani: 44 scholarly references

Since the top three also had long periods of dominion and, in addition, find most mention in both Encyclopaedia Britiannica and Encyclopedia Encarta, I submit that Chola, Pallava, and the Vijayanagara Empire should be the three South Indian kingdoms mentioned in the history section. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 14:23, 13 September 2008 (UTC)

1. Pylee, Moolamattom Varkey (2004). "The Longest Constitutional Document". Constitutional Government in India (2nd edition ed.). S. Chand. p. 4. ISBN 8121922038. Retrieved 2007-10-31. {{cite book}}: |edition= has extra text (help)
2. Dutt, Sagarika (1998). "Identities and the Indian state: An overview". Third World Quarterly. 19 (3): 411–434. doi:10.1080/01436599814325. at p. 421
3. Wheare, K.C. (1964). Federal Government (4th edition ed.). Oxford University Press. p. 28. {{cite book}}: |edition= has extra text (help)
4. Echeverri-Gent, John (2002), "Politics in India's Decentred Polity", in Ayres, Alyssa; Oldenburg, Philip (eds.), Quickening the Pace of Change, India Briefing, London: M.E. Sharpe, pp. 19–53, ISBN 076560812X at pp. 19-20; Sinha, Aseema (2004), "The Changing Political Economy of Federalism in India", India Review, 3 (1): 25–63, doi:10.1080/14736480490443085 at pp 25-33

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