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Goodbye to many friends and acquaintences.

Neil, Ceedjee, Avruch, Tewfik, Malik Shabazz, Imad, John Carter, Itzse, Eleland, Ashley, PhilKnight, LamaLoLeshla, ColourintheMeaning, Nomoskedasticity,Pedrito, ZScarpia, Petercohen, IanPitchford, PR, dearest Tiamut, RolandR, Steve SM8900, Sposer, Nickhh, Currie and G-Dett, Pinkville, Gatoclass, Jaakobou, and many more that don't come spontaneously to mind, but should figure.

Rather than blanking this page, I think the correct procedure is to archive it.

I've always in life and in wiki, hit out hard at the slightest sign of prejudice, especially antisemitism. I dislike at the same time the use of that word with malice aforethought, carelessly, of people like myself with a critical temper. Fling it about with tactical cynicism, and the potency of the tremendous burden the term wears to attuned mind is deadened, and the concept itself becomes what real antisemites would like it to become, dead coinage, a token in the deflated currency of cheap slang matches. So over the last few days, while registering mild disgruntlement, making due warnings, and nudging a person who did, whatever he might say, insinuate that I was antisemitic (from an article I took pride in cleaning up, and where he and co,. have edited poorly), to retract. I felt it odd that this simply passed by as though it were on a par with any other casual taunt, or impromptu piece of reproving tattle, like calling me an paranoid egotist with an inferiority superiority complex, a gross infringement of I/P editing rules that was met with administrative silence, though customarily it is the sort of attack that earns its launcher immediate suspension. I was strongly tempted to ask for administrative action, but didn't because such a step might have borne with it a semblance that I was using a complaint as a pretext to get rid of Amoruso from the Lehi page (apart from my native grain, that blokes don't whinge. Which is true, but only because they can slug it out, at least verbally, which you can't on wiki). After however a further succession of remarks twisting the record and my remarks out of all recognition, I did endeavour to register that protest. But I did not know how to apply my request to the appropriate forum. Amoruso obliged me, and I added my comment on the page. It shaped up as though I, who have spent many days trying to bring evidence, sources, rationally assayed, to a difficult issue, was indeed the culprit. This together with the sudden archiving (no doubt accidental) of the whole Lehi page where our recent interchanges had taken place, and the fact that my efforts to elicit evidence for assertions were met with abstract rule-waving that ignored what is disruptive behaviour that betrays no trace of intelligent editing, broke the straw of the camel's back. Yeats was on my mind, some figure of a salmon popping into mind until I recalled the words, This is no country for old men'. This is indeed Byzantium, not Yeats's, but 'byzantine' in the sense of an infinite Kafkian labyrinth of intricately wikilawyered regulations that, fastidiously applied irrespective of the real content questions at stake, can make a mockery of anyone seriously committed to bring to this difficult area of the encyclopedia an informed, and impartial contribution, when they must edit in a milieu where scalp-taking deliquency is not infrequent. It's, on the positive side, a world for the young, their vitality, speed and high intelligence undergirds a project that appeals to me because it is financially disinterested, if not politically neutral. The old are therefore not of much use, what they have learnt in several decades, in composition, the sedulous survey of sources for relevance, and reading, is frail when face to face with, in certain editors, wilful mischief, disattention to details, endless prevarication inspissate (a word beloved of T.E.Lawrence) with vapid opinionizing, carelessness with language, riding on the back of their passionate convictions. It's been a great two years. I hope something of what I contributed will stick. A word to Ceedjee. Imad went to some trouble to get those quotes from Amin's memoirs. I hope when you get round to helping with that page, you can position it in some form. I would really have liked to have pushed through to the end, and made it finally to GA standards. But I've just erased a file of 50 pages of notes accumulated on the subject over the last year to make sure this is my last appearance here.

No comments, one way or another, please. This is not compelled (and therefore no one but myself is responsible), but a choice I've made. And Neil, if you can archive this page tomorrow morning (I stilll have a copy to make and a few other things). Best regards. Ciao wiki! Nishidani (talk) 20:00, 9 July 2008 (UTC)

Replies

• Hi. Wow, hard to believe. sorry if you feel things got a bit negative. by the way people are always free to change their minds around here. Just wanted to mention that. Hope all your efforts and activities go well. --Steve, Sm8900 (talk) 20:44, 9 July 2008 (UTC)

• I respect your decisions, but allow me to protest to this one? Differences and disputes with other editors are always going to exist, but is leaving WP the solution? In all cases, you surely have made WP a better place during your presence here, and I do hope that you will change your mind about leaving. Imad marie (talk) 21:13, 9 July 2008 (UTC)

• You have also shown me that you are an extremely useful and informed editor, and we would be better off with you present. Having said that, I do note that the content with which you deal is among the most contentious we have, and that opinions regarding the content will often create bad blood. That does not mean that the project is not better for your presence. And, for what it's worth, I am in the process of trying to find a way to write a Wikinews article on Gabriel's Vision, based on the information you have given me. Unfortunately, I don't think I've ever written one before, so it might take a while. I would hope that you would return, as your insight and knowledge have been vital to the project in the past, and I have every reason to believe that they would be just as important in the future. John Carter (talk) 21:30, 9 July 2008 (UTC)

• I'm not far off in joining you, basically because of what's going on over there and because of many similar reasons. As Misplaced Pages gets bigger and worse not better; the noose is being constantly tightened against us. To give our free labor, is a privilege we are told; Misplaced Pages is not a Democracy we are also told; what it is we aren't told. I wish I knew what will be the end with WP, and make my decision now based on that, but lacking a crystal bowl, I'll need to make a judgment call to stay or quit. Although we disagree a lot, and I don't feel that we disagree that much, because deep deep down in your soul, I know that you know I'm right; but nevertheless I found you intellectually stimulating. I think meeting you in Rome and having a long discussion is much cheaper and much more worthwhile then wasting our time here. Maybe I'll even be able to change you back into a friend of the Jews or at least get you to be neutral. Smart people, learn from the mistakes of others, ordinary people learn from their own mistakes, and fools never learn. Itzse (talk) 22:09, 9 July 2008 (UTC)
  • I don't think you will find many people who are a more genuine, real friend of the Jews than Nishidani. --NSH001 (talk) 23:31, 9 July 2008 (UTC)
    • You got a point there. He did at times exclaim awe of the Jewish people, but worked untiringly for the interests of the Palestinians. I will dare say that the length he took to defend the Palestinians equaled the depth of his admiration of the Jews. Itzse (talk) 23:56, 9 July 2008 (UTC)

• I am happy enough to comply with your request to archive this page, which I will do tomorrow (it's certainly long overdue for archiving). However I'm not going to refrain from commenting on your (I hope not permanent) departure. You are an exceptionally valuable editor. I don't have anything like your intimate acquaintance with the relevant sources on Israel-Palestine articles. Like you, I find editing I-P articles distressing, which is why I only do it intermittently. I see it as part of my wiki job to give you some moral support here, which is why your sudden departure is such a blow (and I'm well aware that I could have given you more support recently, but my wiki time is limited). You have made enormous improvements to Misplaced Pages, and it's been a pleasure reading your contributions. Best wishes, and I hope you'll be able to come back here when you feel able and ready. --NSH001 (talk) 23:13, 9 July 2008 (UTC)

• I regret your decision, which will leave some of us even more exposed. Having gained one scalp, those apparently intent on manipulating Misplaced Pages for partisan ends may feel emboldened to target others. Your erudition, and your patience in discussion, have been exemplary, and will be greatly missed. I continue to hope that you will reconsider, though I recognise that there are more important things in life. I'm sure that you will a valuable contribution wherever you continue your work. RolandR (talk) 23:43, 9 July 2008 (UTC)

• Salut. Ce n'est pas nécessairement une mauvaise chose de quitter wikipedia. C'est par de nombreux aspects un poison et une perte de temps incroyable. A l'occasion d'un voyage, ce serait avec plaisir que je te rencontrerais pour "refaire le monde" :-) Amitiés. Ceedjee (talk) 08:52, 10 July 2008 (UTC)

• Come back! It's getting lonely over in Jerusalem. On the other hand, maybe we could all use a break. LamaLoLeshLa (talk) 19:58, 14 July 2008 (UTC) By the way, for the record, Nishidani called attention to user:Cush's anti-semitic inuendo ("Jew Crew"); when I tried to engage Cush in a dialogue, Nishidani's reaction was, "just ban him! zero tolerance for antisemitism".
• Very glad to see you back just now. Hope you stay. It's rather more boring without you!John Z (talk) 16:03, 26 July 2008 (UTC)

Potential copyright issue

Nishidani, I notice that you have a near 1000 word quote on your user page. Aside from the fact that User page should not be used for polemical speeches (see Misplaced Pages:UP#NOT), I suspect that an extremely lengthy quotation like this is a copyright violation. Could you confirm whether or not it is, indeed, a copyright violation? Thanks. Jayjg 01:12, 10 July 2008 (UTC)

The copyright is fine. "CPT material is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-Share Alike 3.0 License."
--NSH001 (talk) 07:56, 10 July 2008 (UTC)

I have added a copyright notice according to the terms of the licence.

--NSH001 (talk) 08:20, 10 July 2008 (UTC)

AN post misplaced

Hi, I've noticed that you have placed a comment sorta "out of order" on AN. Take a look at http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Misplaced Pages%3AAdministrators%27_noticeboard&diff=229760669&oldid=229759781 please and see what I'm referring to. You have placed your comment inbetween an ongoing conversation. The reply below yours was intended to be after G-Dett, not yours. If you would fix it, I would appreciate it as it does mix up the reading order. —— nixeagle 12:49, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

Attitude to RfCs

Hi Nishidani - thought you might be interested to see this comment yesterday. It can be enjoyed alone, or one might compare it with this from the day before. My well-known weaknesses as a thinker probably make it impossible for me to work out what important principles of the project are on display.

I don't think I'm canvassing, but just in case I'll send it to User:Nixeagle as well. PR 09:23, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

Pure condescension from a pseud in Polonius's corner but

I'm breaking my rule again, but this is not editing, which I deeply enjoy, and therefore . . . Twenty years ago I spent a week arguing night and day with a friend on the proposition 'If I am hit by a thrown stone, no matter whoever threw it, I am to blame'. My friend lives in terms of this principle of absolute responsibility. I think that, philosophically, I won the argument, i.e., that it is simply not operationally true, though psychoanalytically there is a deep truth hidden there (and my friend was a diagnosed 'schizophrenic' successfully treated by psychoanalysis), in that we are by nurture and nature, driven to be complicit in the world's woes while, on a conscious plane, deploring them and disavowing our personal responsibility. Still I accept that it is a useful moral myth, worth adopting. The advice my anecdote is intended to proffer is, I hope, evident. Never allow situations to arise in which you feel you are the victim. You do, read by others, appear to seek out situations in which you are personally challenged. You will find an inexhaustible number of people ready to exploit an heroic frailty of this order. If you have an inkling, however well founded, that this is how you feel, then you'll have to work it off. Bringing it into your edits is precisely what those who would rid wiki of your presence desire. If these situations recur and you play by the standard rules, then you are indeed complicit. Use occasions, where that possiility is being prompted by provocative edits, to examine your conscience, rather than indulge in (an otherwise justifiable) sense of outrage. In a certain sense, we also construct our grievances, and when one reads a vignette like, to name one of many, 'Tagar and the Teepee Family' (in Henryk Broder’s A Jew in the New Germany 2003 pp.124-129, from memory. It deals with an American Jewish couple who settled in Hebron), one should murmur, if one reads deeply, 'I too can see myself in this', though the story invites, on one plane, the reader to view those it describes as bizarre. Take a break, reflect on your conviction of certainty, which is a dangerous thing to have, use your extensive knowledge frugally, to enrich the texts, not to bait those who bait you, and, please, lastly, try an experiment. Find two figures within Judaism or Jewry, and Palestinian culture who have yet to earn themselves the page due to them, research them, and write the two bios up with care, contemporaneously. For Palestine I suggest Yitzak Shami, the Hebronite writer. Not to convince those who hunt for your scalp to lay off. But overfocusing on I/P conflicts, and not on many other dimensions that are less conflictual, is balm to the self, or, if you will, the soul. Best wishes. It is summer, enjoy it. Apologies for the paternalism, and goodbye for now Nishidani (talk) 18:10, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

I think I understand what you're getting at, but I don't think it has much to say in real life. For example, racists make people's lives hell, and the solution is to name and shame and protest and strike back. Yes, smug people will treat you (and your supporters) as immersed in victimhood, but it's a lot better than trying to ignore it (or avoid it and let someone else take the rap). Ditto in a place like this, nobody came to this project to cheat, nobody really likes seeing it, and most people can see it (even if they often pretend not to). Tell me what you think of this - is it a policy-compliant revert or is it IDONTLIKEIT vandalism? PR 18:54, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages has little do do with real life. It is mostly, a drug, like the Net, except that there are many fine mainliners of splendid intelligence using it to sift wheat from the chaff. The labour of love is dyke-fingering, in the Dutch sense, naturally, against the tsunami of disinformatsiya. I have nothing against drugs of course, and have taken most that have come my way, for limited periods.

As for the antagonist you seem intent on facing down in a virtual replay of Wyatt and the Clanton gang (and you will lose, not because the victimizer will prove to be smarter, but simply because he will never be hampered by any sentimental idealism, or sense of justice, a fatal weakness in these duels), I have nothing to say except, off the cuff, I think of a remark Karl Kraus made in 1934.

But I see my advice is not understood, so, rather than pontificate orphically,...Best wishes on whatever trip you take, PR. Regards Nishidani (talk) 19:29, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

I hinted last night that I'd take (or was taking) your invaluable advice to self-suspend for a period. It's not clear anyone even noticed I'd said this, which probably accounts for the uninterrupted discussion of sanctions against me. This morning I see it casually suggested here that I'm somehow comparable to a well-known and very large-scale cheat, who undoubtedly damaged dozens of articles with his abusive sock-puppetry, personal aggression, wiki-lawyering and edit-warring. (The case is here - the brave editor who raised it shortly left the project). That particular case bears examination for other reasons, and not just because most articles touched by Former User 2 in his 7,000 edits were almost certainly damaged by his conduct. Every effort was made keep this heavy-duty cheat on board - he was even absolved from divulging what other sock-puppets he'd been using! The UserPages of each of his two known sock-puppets User:Clintonesque and User:Teens! were deleted, making it impossible to check what they'd been up to. I was chastised and reverted for going to a few of the damaged articles and informing people there'd been serious cheating at work. I could have more to say on the subject of protecting abusive sock-puppetery, but with your e-mail not enabled, your delicate ears are protected from it. PR 09:40, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

Review of evidence

Your review of evidence on WP:AN is amazing. You've systematically destroyed pretty much every claim and every piece of innuendo against PR, while exposing those who just want him gone regardless of the cost, for what they really are. Keep up the good work! -- Mark Chovain 22:05, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

While I found it difficult to follow due to its sheer length. Are you sure it can't be stated as a more condensed and accessible account. El_C 05:43, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

Issues

I have sent G-Dett some of the issues that have been raised to me and/or Ryan regarding PR's editing. I am awaiting his responses, comments, or corrections about them. Thank you. -- Avi (talk) 14:15, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for the response, Nishdani. As I said on the other page, I recognize and appreciate PR's intelligence, and I understand that he has a distinct point of view (which is completely acceptable, it is how that affects wiki editing that is the issue) as do many other people, myself included. What makes it somewhat more difficult for me is that my natural point of view is somewhat antipodal to PR's, so I need to be extremely careful when discussing issues with him, or about him, to ensure, both for myself and for others, that I am not letting any personal beliefs interfere with what I believe is the proper behavior on wikipedia.

At this point, PR has developed a reputation; some view it as a good reputation—others view it poorly. Regardless, his edit content and style has made him a focal point of discussion, for good or ill. That, in and of itself, is not good for the project, and I think that in order for the project, and the highly contentious issues of the I/P articles in particular, it behooves everyone to minimize issues of personality and discuss content as calmly as possible. With the now near instinctive reaction that PR engenders, that is very difficult. I had hoped that mentoring would have had some success, as it has with Jaakobu, who runs nearly every controversial edit in front of his mentors, and has demonstrated a distinct improvement in the areas of civility. I am not certain PR has done that. PR has also run through multiple mentors. Nishdani, what does that tell you?

As such, I think it would be good for everyone, including PR, if he took a vacation from I/P articles for a while. Upon return, demonstrating the ability to converse civilly with opponents, and the ability to compromise on a consensus, would go a long way in allowing whatever is in PR's past to remain quiescent.

As for possible discrepancies between how PR is treated as respects other editors, I am sure that people from the other camp have examples where they feel they were treated unequally. Moreover, as dispassionate as it may sound, it is an inherently destabilizing situation to allow improper behavior in one camp to balance improper behavior in another. Editors who create difficulty, from any ideological camp, need to be addressed on their own merits (Isarig, Zeq, etc. come to mind). I agree that other editors' behaviors should be discussed, but i do not believe that is then an exemption for PR's behavior.

I appreciate your taking the time to explain your position, I understand it, and I hope I have made my understanding of the situation as clear as I could. I would appreciate any comment or corrections of any misunderstandings that I may have. Thank you for your time and patience. -- Avi (talk) 15:36, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

Your opinion, please. What I too extreme in my response on WP:AN? -- Avi (talk) 17:22, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

Thank you; you understood what I meant, and you expressed it more eloquently than I could have to Palestineremembered. I appreciate it. -- Avi (talk) 14:59, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

There is no need for an apology at all. I am also glad that I wrote that "very few" of us are orators, as opposed to none . -- Avi (talk) 20:26, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

Hi N. Thanks for your note on Agamben. Re: ArbCom, I believe anybody can file a request. I might do it, as I mentioned at the AN discussion. Wanted to let you know that I just posted a note about this on PR's Talk. Ciao. HG | Talk 03:23, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

Crazy world

Thank you for your support.
I really thought that such things could not happen. Once again, on wp:fr, he would already be banned forever.
I know you don't like coercitive methodes but, well, it is a little bit hard to understand.
I don't have time to argue with "no argument"... Too much time ocnsuming.
Here my last work fr:Bataille de Latroun (1948). I know you don't like much articles on war operations but I am quite proud of this. I invite you to read the "historiography" sections... I was not aware of that before. Ceedjee (talk) 17:01, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

Ceedjee

Re your attack on my block on his talk page, can you explain what exactly was wrong with my NPOV'ing of the article, and the statement that I "will not leave a trace on the articles you defended"? пﮟოьεԻ 57 17:22, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

FYI Nishidani, you might like to know that the block has been overturned at AN/I. Regards, Gatoclass (talk) 18:29, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

Ne te tracasse pas. Ce n'est pas bien grave mais c'est très désolant.

J'espère que l'échantillon d'éditeurs israliens n'est pas représentatif de toute la société bien que je craingne fort que oui.

Quand je pense à tout mes antécédents pro-Israéliens et à mes amis juifs, j'ai parfois peur.

Bon, la "bonne foi" n'est pas le propre de l'homme mais là, franchement...

Surtout, reste calme. Ca ne sert à rien de s'énerver...

Et puis, c'est une belle revenge d'écrire en français. Ils vont tous penser qu'on les insulte alors qu'il n'en est rien ;-)

Bonne continuation mais dis moi ce que tu penses sur la partie historiographie. Tu peux poster sur la page de discussion de fr:user:Latroun.

Amitiés, Ceedjee (talk) 20:34, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

Thx for your message on wp:fr.

I appreciate this.

Take care. Ceedjee (talk) 07:44, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

NB: Indeed Arab and Palestinian historiographies are poor and not well developed... But for Latrun, we can understand. For the 1948 exodus, that is something different and more difficult to handle with NPoV and accuracy. Ceedjee (talk) 07:45, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

Retired wounded, awarded Purple Barnstar

		The Purple Barnstar
		For injuries received in service to the cause of good writing and historical accuracy. May you make a full recovery. PR 14:16, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

Now now, standards, if you insist on returning so quickly

I browse at times. You posted on the M.Durrah page. The points were at times useful, but please don't editorialize ('illiterates'). Be brief, to the point. And above all, check and cross-check. The French foreign minister Karsenty alludes to is not M.Hubert Vardin, but Hubert Védrine. The Canadian Jewish source you cited seems to be playing a rather shifty little game of innuendo by an error that, as it stands, is a rather sly allusion to the German spy Hubert Vardin in a short story by Conan Doyle. Nishidani (talk) 20:30, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

My apologies. I considered myself released from my obligation to you. Who would have supposed that the Zionist source I quoted would deliberately mislead us? PR 20:45, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

No apologies needed. You have no obligation to me whatsoever. You have, as all do, an obligation to strive to meet the best standards of wiki editing, to justify our faith in your abilities.

p.s. (a) you use 'Zionist' rather mindlessly. This is a Jewish Canadian source. Learn to use le mot juste. You use adverbs rather wildly, as above 'deliberately'. That is an inference about the source on your part, and to use the adverb only feeds the imaginations of those who would argue you may at times think in conspiratorial terms. (I myself imagined (a) a slip of the 'pen' (b) a coincidence (c) a copy-editor, with a love of the minor short stories of Conan Doyle, making a private joke for friends). If you had an obligation to me, it would have been to behave with such propriety of analysis and language, that I should never succumb to the temptation to return to editing wiki, since qualitative improvements in the meantime would prove that no one is indispensable, and thus bludging fogies like myself might better enjoy their superannuation (and superfetation of words) pottering quietly in their gardens (instead of feeling that my observance of temporal distinctions in the classical English verbal system leaves much to be desired). Good luck, PR Nishidani

I discovered something interesting - Adam Smith observes that capitalists "seldom meet together, even for merriment and diversion, but the conversation ends in a conspiracy against the public, or in some contrivance to raise prices." But this does not make "The Wealth of Nations" a "conspiracy theory"! PR 20:52, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

Yes, but only for for those who never take the trouble to read the rest of the book, or at least ponder at length Book 4, chapter 2 (Everyman's edition, J.M.Dent 1975 pp.400ff.). Smith knew that merchants pushed to rig things to their own interest (as all lobbies do). They did not know however much if anything about the mechanisms relating to the way their countries, as opposed to their own interests, were enriched by the extension of market principles (ibid. p.380). There is an 'invisible hand' at work which promotes ends that the merchant himself is unaware of. Conspiracy theorists confuse the merchant with the 'invisible hand', which is an aggregate of interests including, but extending far beyond, the immediate calculations of individual economic agents.

Let me illustrate. Some think Zionism a conspiracy. Yet Zionism began as a project of secular nationalists to redeem Jewry from the stunting, obscurantist malaise of life in the shtetl where identity was keyed to religious traditions. It was bitterly opposed by the rabbinate. Now, it is the religious tradition which threatens Zionism's germinal secularism, as the religious right exerts constant pressure on the state to transform the nation into a vehicle for religious redemption. This is the law of unintended consequences, and its effects are far more prevalent in historical events than any ostensible 'conspiracy'.

Conspiracy theories in historical, political and economic thought have the same status as God in a scientific worldview, i.e., they provide simpletons with a specious 'solution' for problems of great complexity (generally see Philip Ball’s Critical Mass: How one thing leads to another). The fact that there is a certain formulaic similarity between Smith's statement and the proemion of Protocols of the Learned Elders of Zion owes much to the fact that the latter is written to vindicate a feudal aristocracy whose power was destroyed by the mercantile forces that backed the Enlightenment whose emerging role Smith's theory justified. Antisemites confuse two distinct things, individual mercantile calculations, which are restricted to limited contexts, and the 'invisible hand' which is the logic of aggregate demand and supply. Smith's 'invisible hand' has been traced to Macbeth, but the proper source is Hamlet's:-

There is a divinity that shapes our ends

Rough-hew them as we will.

The divinity became, under the Smithian dispensation, the aggregate economy under conditions of unrestrained trade, merchants just rough-hewers among many other social actors. There is therefore nothing 'conspiratorial' in Smith's analysis. That Smith's materialistic reduction of 'God' as the founding principle of rational order (creation) is by now an ideological construct, that confuses the idea of a pure market with 'nature', and endows the former with the attributes and principles medieval minds associated with a divinely infused nature, is obvious.

If you can't bother with Adam Smith read Emma Rothschild's, Economic Sentiments: Adam Smith, Condorcet, and the Enlightenment, Harvard UP 2001 chapter 5. Conspiracies require omniscience and omnipotence, qualities only God had, until Nietzsche wrote his obituary. In one sense, there is just one vast conspiracy for which there is overwhelming evidence, and to which Sterne alluded in having Walter Shandy remark that, 'The world is in a conspiracy to drive out what little wit God has given us', a quip the Monty Python philosopher Eric Idle played off in the final words of his Galaxy Song. Nishidani 14:44, 25 August 2008

You've lost me a bit - the neo-cons could have plotted together to have 911 for immediate ideological or war-profiteering motives, but the "invisible hand" could have been a primeval realisation that it's time for a cull.

And I was under the impression that the Zionists (at least, the important branch, which was not Herzl's wing) were old-fashioned Russian/East European pre-Bolsheviks who could see no means to seize the Czarist wealth, needed a refuge to avoid the secret police, and which, in the event, instead opened their eyes to a people easy to dominate. They were not driven by religion, but by easy pickings and revolutionary zeal.

There's an extraordinary situation going on at the Jewish Internet Defense Force, where one guy and his recently formed group is considered entitled to an article, whereas much bigger, more significant groups of quite careful anti-Zionists are considered not entitled to the same thing. PR 17:07, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

The Neocons are not intelligent enough to mount a conspiracy. Everything they officially planned went wrong, as most neutral analysts said it would. What they aspired to do politically was announced long before, publicly. Conspirators do not go public. The most one can say of 9/11 (as with many other so called conspiracies from within) on the evidence is that certain branches of government or certain individuals within some governments may have been aware of a risk or even of the plot, but withheld that knowledge because they saw the obvious political advantages in having something like this occur. Keeping mum, and letting things happen, as they are planned even by one's enemies (Bin Laden and the Kandahar tapes), is far more prevalent in history than actual centralized conspiracies. To embrace 'conspiracies' is to cultivate 'paranoia' and one of the things about paranoia is that it tends to miss the obvious elements and facts in its pursuit of the devious 'Truth', which unlike the obvious which is often complex and messy, embraces everything in a crushingly simplistic hug. That is why, as with antisemitism, conspiracies appeal to simpletons (Antisemitism is the socialism of fools, it has been well said).

The way you view early Zionists is extremely simplified, confusing and, if I understand you, plain wrong. Reread, slowly, Lenni Brenner. In any case, Zionism succeeded because of (a)fundamental mistakes made on several crucial occasions by the Arab elites of Palestine. Amin al-Husayni is vilified in Zionist historiography, but they should build a monument to him, and (b) the Second World War and Hitler's Holocaust. Without this latter factor, most Jews would have done what they had usually done, opted for emigration to Western Europe or America if the chronic antisemitism of the Slavic East had not been reined in. Hitler's gift ('gift' in the German sense of a 'poison') to the West was to destroy one of the greatest creative elites within the West, and turn many of its survivors into troubled nationalists within, or emotionally committed to, an enclave in the Arab world, while depriving the Arab world of the leavening genius of its historically settled Jewish diaspora communities.

You really must cultivate a ticklish sense of irony and humour. The Jewish Internet Defense Force is a rather comical piece, using wiki to bignote a shoe-string operation. The title tells it all, in its confusion of what is virtually a one-man show posing as a massive ethnic force de frappe. I'd advise you not to mess with it, but merely, as many, sit back and enjoy the spectacle. There are intelligent people around who will bring its major delusions to heel.

I hope we are not violating any wiki rules by using this page as a consultancy on general issues you think I may be able to help you with. Nishidani (talk) 20:07, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

Names

I always use names, where available...both sides....Ashley kennedy3 (talk) 09:39, 3 September 2008 (UTC)

I'm looking at arbitration procedures for future reference as I can see it needing arbitration later...crystal ball gazing...Ashley kennedy3 (talk) 09:41, 3 September 2008 (UTC)

Nishidani the Heron section is not about Palestinian settler violence as the violence in that section is from Israeli state parties not settlers (apart from the diplomats being attacked).... Ashley kennedy3 (talk) 09:57, 3 September 2008 (UTC)

Tips are always welcome...rule books I prefer to forget, common sense should be enough, unfortunately on ME subjects it is not....Thanks....Ashley kennedy3 (talk) 10:10, 3 September 2008 (UTC)

Hebron has been non-Jewish for 95% of its history...with minor Jewish input for the rest...even the early history Hebron was Jewish controlled rather than a Jewish city..The cave of patriarchs is a crusader invention for tourism (pilgrims) for the cash flow (pilgrims only went to Jerusalem and it was done to encourage Latin settlements outside the area) as the site of the original cave had become disused....Ashley kennedy3 (talk) 10:20, 3 September 2008 (UTC)

That is caricature, and if sourced, badly so. Rabbi Pinhas ben Hama spoke of it eight centuries before the Crusades. As for the early period, you are quite right that huge confusion arises from a Biblico-centric reading of Palestine/Israel and of using 'the Jews' to refer to a coherent tribal unity when historically we are dealing with a diverse congeries of groups whose descendents found their identity in the religious chronicles written in Hebrew. You underestimate the intensity of Jewish rabbinical attachment to the sacred topography of the Bible, something that has motivated consistent aliyah to places like Jerusalem and Hebron. The 'ethnic' majorities governing an area do not necessarily define its identity. For a large part of time, Turks dominated the Greek world, but that doesn't mean that the Greek attachment to their ancestral land must yield place to a predominantly Turkish reading, throughout the centuries down to the 1900s.

I do know that the cave of patriarchs was revered but by the time of the crusades the practice of visiting had fallen into disuse. Richard The crusades c. 1071-c 1291. ISBN 0521625661 and was then re-invented by the Latins as a recruiting aid....and yes I do "bite" although not in anger, it's more a pavlovian response, it's the inversion of reality that I'm responding to......Ashley kennedy3 (talk) 19:05, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

Interesting hyperbole...Yes I am contented, which I count against myself in this benighted world...and yes my time would be better spent in research and writing than quibbling, it's a habit I should control more, only I get a perverse pleasure in sticking the occasional pin in...I do take your point an will try to curb it...Ashley kennedy3 (talk) 19:52, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

Can we move on splitting contemporary Hebron off from Historical Hebron?....PS I appreciate your "Turn of Phrase" and use of the English language, some of it is very elegant and always well crafted....Ashley kennedy3 (talk) 12:35, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

Assumption for future reference

(1) Anti-semitism as a generic trait applicable to most non-JewsNishidani (talk) 12:41, 3 September 2008 (UTC)

you forgot "and some Jews." Come on Nishidani, it's not like you actually like the Jewish people. You seem like you're fairly well educated. One cannot objectively look at the entire scope of Jewish history (even EXCLUDING the Holocaust) and not walk away with the thought that the majority of people have not taken kindly to the Jews. My apologies if I have learned the lessons of my history and walk away with the conclusion that most people hate me for being Jewish. The only times non-Jews seem to like Jews, is when those Jews also take an antagonistic stance toward other Jews (Chomsky, Finkelstein, the NK.) Or when Jews care so much about trying to make the non-Jews love them that they go to extremes in order to try to be loved ("Peace Now" and other such Jewish liberal organizations, etc) While I do assume most people hate the Jewish people, I also know that there is such a thing (while extremely rare) as a righteous gentile. Certainly anyone who lives by the 7 laws of Noah is considered to be righteous according to Jewish tradition. My definition is a little different. Who among the Jew haters will go out of their way to fight that impulse deep within their souls to hate the Jews (or in the modern sense, Israel?) Who among the Jew haters will fight that urge to the point where they can actually objectively look at the Jewish people and Jewish history and not hate us because we are still here and not envy us because we are alive and continue to strive despite all odds? Who can actually look at the situation in the Middle East and objectively understand (through slicing through all the layers of a seriously biased/leftist and ironically oftentimes "Jewish" media) that the Jewish people are not aggressors and only want to live in peace among their neighbors? How many can take an honest look to see that throughout history the Jews have proven so often to rush to the defense of everyone but themselves? Why is do so many carry this disdain for the Jew who defends himself and who triumphs---not buy blowing himself up or committing mass murder, but through merely living and surviving and trying to contribute to humanity in good and wholesome ways? Today, this attitude toward the Jews has manifested itself in hatred toward Israel. It is not my imagination. It is apparent. The world thought the "Jewish problem" would be solved after the Holocaust, but what happened? The Jews pop out of the ovens to re-inhabit their land and with their own defensive force to defend it. Nothing more has solidified my faith more than the fact that despite all attempts throughout history to rid this world of Jews, that we still exist. Sorry to disappoint you.  ;) I write this not to cause any problems but to expand upon my point of view and assumptions which you felt the need to simplify here for some reason. I guess you wanted to chat. --Einsteindonut (talk) 13:22, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

I don't like or dislike any 'people'. I like or dislike individuals. Nations and ethnic groups are just fictions. I have my background, full of genocide, contempt, ethnic slurs and centuries long persecution. I don't wear it as a badge of distinction or something to defend. In this, I am like the Jewish intellectuals I most admire, and perhaps owe the insight that I am human before I am anything else, to their drawing the conclusion first and redeeming me with the eloquence and trenchency of their insights into tribalism and its stereotypes.Nishidani (talk) 13:48, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

Can you expand more upon this "nations and ethnic groups are just fictions?" thought of yours? I believe that shows a dangerous disregard toward all history and identity. Perhaps you misunderstood my take of my history. I'm not saying my background of awful things is something to defend, but I have a moral obligation to prevent them from happening in the future. It's a shame it seems you have admittedly bought into certain Jewish individuals' overwhelming desire to run from their histories and from what they are. I urge you to not buy into that. It's just mishegas. Perhaps consider embracing who you are and your history. It's our differences which should be celebrated. We are not all the same. Denying the fact that there are nations and ethic groups is the true fiction here, and also a true concern. Ideology is typically a long way away from reality. Mind if I ask your background? --Einsteindonut (talk) 14:36, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

You don't many read serious books, do you? If you did, you would have understood my allusion and not confused what I said with a 'thought' of mine. See Benedict Anderson's Imagined Communities rev.ed. 1992 Verso London, and Ernest Gellner's Nationalism, Basil Blackwell, 1983, who trace the concept back to Renan. My background is the books I read. 'Ethnically', I am Irish, most of my forebears hail from that people, who suffered from forced exodus and long-term genocidal policies long before that concept was thoroughly modernized by Ataturk and Hitler. Nishidani (talk) 14:57, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

"You don't many read serious books, do you?" No, but I have read me some Dr. Seuss. Spare me the insults please. I came here in peace not to attack you. Appreciate the insight into your background. Just curious. What about your religious background? Sorry I have not read Benedict Anderson's book. I'll check it out. You stated this idea as if it were your own, so I assumed that it was. I'm still confused by what you meant by it. What does it mean to you? Personally I'd treat any work that proposed that idea as fiction itself. --Einsteindonut (talk) 15:08, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

No insult intended. The notion's a commonplace, and I thought anyone reasonably well-read would recognize this. Thomas Cooper scandalised many when he called the notion of a nation 'a grammatical fiction' created to save us using periphrases to say what we mean. But that was 200 years ago. If the nation has roots in an ethnic identity, i.e. race, then it still remains true that, given the mongrelization of mankind through history, a Yemenite Jew will have, culturally more or common with a Saudi than a secular Ashkenazi from an upper-middle class German background would have with both (the history of Zionism is riven with this contradiction). Culture always trumps 'race', which appeals to the worst in us, our pathologically jejune instincts for the pseudo-securities of tribal life, one of the blights seeded into Western civilisation, rather uniquely, by the divine authority of the Bible. Like all nations, Israel was founded to invent an identity that collapsed differences. I dislike homogeneity in any form, esp. when I see it everywhere in the three or four usual opinions trotted out when any topic is broached.

As to religion, my background is the same as yours, since we were both raised on the Bible. When I was old enough, 8, to choose for myself what to read by preference, I quickly took to Greek myths: they fed my imagination, and required no theology, or literalist allegiance, and were properly understood as tools to think with, not fairy-tales to believe in.Nishidani (talk) 16:17, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

Perhaps some people read different things than others. I'm not sure if I agree with your statements with regard to "race" appealing to the worst of us. I'm not sure if you are claiming that the Jews are a "race." Nor do I think "race" has much to do with "tribal life" or see how it is a blight on Western Civilization. I completely disagree with you with regard to the founding of Israel. Which "Israel" is it you speak? The people, Israel? The Biblical Land of Israel? Modern-day Israel? I believe Israel has tried to celebrate differences, not collapse them. It's one of the most culturally and religiously diverse places on Earth. Perhaps you have Israel confused with many of its neighbors. I share your dislike for homogeneity, however, I don't think I see it manifested in the same places in which you do.

I wasn't necessarily raised on the Bible. When you say your background is the same as mine are you saying you are a Jew? I was raised with the tools to think as well and actually raised on very little theology and/or "literalist allegiance." However, I always knew in my heart that I was a Jew and didn't fully comprehend what it meant until later in life. It's true, many Jews do tend to blend into their surrounding for various reasons. --Einsteindonut (talk) 16:35, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

Everyone raised within Western civilisation is a 'Jew' whether (s)he likes it or not, since the formation of Jewish identity was foundational for one major stream of occidental identity, just as Greek paganism and philosophy makes us all sons of Greece. One definition of an antisemite is a person who dislikes himself, in that to be, he can only hate his deepest nature, and blame its existence on some identifiable other, in this case the Jew, whom he holds responsible for everything he secretly covets. In both senses (and there are more) we tend to act like prodigal sons. Many return to the narrow fold: I prefer the prodigal world of exile and diaspora, culturally and otherwise. All people, as children, blend into their surroundings. Growing up means, in any deeper sense, 'blending' out of them. The former is fortuitous and tribalizing, the latter an act of choice, in quest of one's proper difference from one's fellow man. I'm sounding terribly pompous, or thinking too much of John of Salisbury.Nishidani (talk) 17:05, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

Regarding said pompousness, you said it, not I. I'm not sure I agree with you regarding everyone being a 'Jew' if they were raised within Western Civilization. I know many people raised within it who are FAR from being Jewish and I'm sure you do too. It's ok if you don't want to just come right out and say it. I was just curious since you seem to know so much about Jewish and Israeli history, etc. I'm not sure about the narrow fold. However, I do know that when Israel left Mitzrayim, 4/5 were left behind. They were the 4/5 who preferred exile and diaspora (and therefore death.) Throughout the generations that same choice is made, whether in the physical or spiritual realm. 'Have you ever tried the 'narrow fold?' Or are you saying that you have 'blended' out of it? Some partake in that quest to comprehend their difference from one's fellow man at an early age, and make more spiritual choices later in life. Others are raised within the confines of a religiously vigorous life, only to eventually rebel in an effort to try to be and experience everything in which they are not or in which they never had the opportunity to be.--Einsteindonut (talk) 17:30, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

(2) Dershowitz is an 'expert' on the Arab-Israeli conflict whereas Chomsky, Finkelstein and Carter are just a bunch of foolish anti-semitesNishidani (talk) 08:32, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

Nishdani. A couple of comments and questions. First, I am a newbie so I respectfully ask, is your talk page on WP the place to have an ongoing discussion like this? I am truly asking because if it is, I would like to join in. If not I sure would like to find another blog or discussion group that deals with philosophy, politicis, mathematics, philology, etc. Second, I notice that most of your comments and edits are pretty solid and I respect that but every once in a while your use of adjectives creeps in, specifically "Radical" Zionist and other terms like that. Now I now there are sources for these adjectives but they are one sided. I would have no problem if you balanced your comments or buttressed them. For example Jabotinsky the "Radical","militant", "visionary", "terrorist", "hero". Its NPOV to state all of these, but not one. He is definitely controversial and his actions were provocative. Of course he was living in a very sharp edged world at the time, where other parties actively worked to murder every Jew in the world they could find. Third, your comments and enui remind of James Joyce, another writer who reflects on the benefits of exile, and who rejected his Irish patrimony. Now when you discuss Jews, Judaism, and anti-semitism its clear that you are engaging these terms on a quite rarified intelectual and philosophical level but the fact is, the palestinian terrorists that murdered the old crippled Leon Klinghoffer in1985 did not make such fine distinctions. His name alone sufficed to serve as a hangman's noose, with no chance of clemency, much like it would today in many different countried in the Middle East that are Judenrein. I would like to make several suggestions. 1. Lets you, Einsteindounut and I work together on some neutral noncontroversial Wp article, there are at least 13,000 that we could labor on together, most of them having nothing to do with these hot topics. At worst, we could respectfully sharpen our editing and rhetorical skills, but stay clear of any suspicious bias. 2. If you are truly interested in learning history, philosophy, and religion on a deeper level I would be happy to help you, in the form of an exchange. 3. Why don't you practice taking on the political and philosophical positions of someone you disagree with? After studying Islam, Palestinian History and Arabic I spend four years being the Teacher Advisor for the Muslim Club at my high school where I worked. It really helped me clear out some of the bias that arose through a lack of knowledge and empirical experience. Cheers aharon42 (talk) 17:55, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

Actually, I have no intention of using this page as a blog, which would be an abuse of wiki, even if some lenience is due on space use as informal payment for unpaid labour expended on the project. I am bound by rules of courtesy to reply to anyone who may ask me a question. I admire Jabotinsky for two things, his intellectual integrity, and his experiments in adapting Dante's terza rima to modern Hebrew. He is one of those rare men who tell the truth of what others just privately think, yet deny with those effusions of public hypocrisy most of the press now take as NPOV, especially when he wrote programmatically and prophetically that Zionism must trample over native Palestinian love of their homeland and wrest it from them, exercising such overwhelming resilience and intelligent outmanoevering against the Palestinians' wholly natural resistance, that they will be left crushed, without hope, and, from their sheer despair, agree to foreign domination by an immigrant Jewish majority.(b) Saying that any abstract analysis of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is undone, as mere woolly cloud-gathering, if one doesn't mention Leon Klinghoffer, is about as intelligent as saying Efraim Karsh's or Bernard Wasserstein's books are useless because they don't mention hundreds of children who've been slaughtered like Iman Darweesh Al Hams. I must admit that when I read this remark, I dropped off reading the rest. There are some simple rules of logic even sophomores, if not the newspaper-reading public, should understand.

As to cleaning up bias, anyone can see the bias in someone else. It takes much more to clean up one's own. Like ideology, we think of bias, as relating to what other people think. That is not the problem at all.

How about we work on the Unamuno article together. I think I have several books of his as PDF files that I could send you and it looks like your Spanish is better than mine. Take a look and let me know. I would be open to any of your suggestions also. Que tenga suerte, plata, y amor. aharon42 (talk) 18:25, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

As said above, I've retired from editing wiki, except for an occasional role to advise, help, and provide some suggestions on a few talk pages. So as regards your proyecto sugestivo de trabajo en común, to adapt a phrase from Ortega y Gasset (España invertebrada(1922) Madrid 1981 p.41) I must decline. However, let me know when you do tackle that wiki article, which is rather impoverished, and I will of course look on with interest.Nishidani (talk) 21:15, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

NYScholar

What is your mind about some "adoption" of this "gentleman" ? :-) Ceedjee (talk) 19:06, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

I know this and I have somewhere a pdf explaining in detail his whole biography. I sent this to Benny Morris so that he confirms or not what was written and tells me if he agreed to see this published on wp.

He didn't answer. Just sending me his CV.

He was in high financial precarity in 95... My mind is that he has found some kind of compromise, which, at the end, was not that much harmful for him and his family.

I prefer not taking care of this. This is wp:blp

Ceedjee (talk) 06:08, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

canon is cannon

Thanks Nishidani I hadn't even noticed what my fingers were typing....Ashley kennedy3 (talk) 11:42, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

No worries, pal. It's an affliction we all suffer from. When I don't know what my fingers are doing, my first and best instinct it to pull one of them out! It usually works.Nishidani (talk) 11:50, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

Do you any access to the texts from the Franciscan site?.....Your site certainly gives more than Jean Richards but I have no access to the relevant books texts to verify it.....Ashley kennedy3 (talk) 11:33, 9 September 2008 (UTC)

No I don't. My neighbours are Franciscan friars though, and when next at dinner with them, I'll ask them about this. They do have a computerized studio in the monastery, and good connections with Israel, and perhaps to a specialized library where I can look things like this up. Think in the long term, in any case. Finding stuff often takes months, if not years. I've noted the details on the Hébron French study in any case, and that will be a priority. Regards Nishidani (talk) 11:38, 9 September 2008 (UTC)

You mentioned Ian Lustik do you have the book/page for the quote used in the Hebron article:

The government was caught by surprise. Internally divided, depending for its survival on the votes of the National Religious Party, and reluctant to forcibly evacuate the settlers from a city whose Jewish population had been massacred thirty-nine years earlier, the Labor government backed away from its original prohibition against civilian settlement in the area and permitted this group to remain within a military compound. After more than a year and a half of agitation and a bloody Arab attack on the Hebron settlers, the government agreed to allow Levinger's group to establish a town on the outskirts of the city

Nice quote agrees with all I know about the politics of the time but the quote has no citation....Ashley kennedy3 (talk) 07:31, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

The italicized text is on p.42 (I'm sure, since the book is freely consultable in an unpaginated online version, that specific page references can be disposed of, since anyone can check whatever is culled from it, by searching the net edition).Nishidani (talk) 16:04, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

I take it that was for FOR THE LAND AND THE LORD Jewish Fundamentalism in Israel. By Ian S. Lustick. New York: Council on Foreign Relations/Kampmann & Company. ...Ashley kennedy3 (talk) 16:42, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

Found the quote thanks bottom of page 42. Chapter 3, Evolution of Gush Emunim,....Ashley kennedy3 (talk) 16:49, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

It seems that...

Great minds think alike. ;) I've missed you my friend. Hope all is well with you. I also hope you will give up your self-imposed exile from article editing, and get back into the swing of things as soon as you feel your creative juices flowing again. I've sorely missed your content contributions, though as always, deeply appreciate your reasoned talk page interventions. Cheers. Tiamut 15:54, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

Funny that you should mention Brecht. I hae been working with someone who holds him high esteem and makes mention of him most often when complimenting the work of another artist. You seem almost too fine for these times my friend, which may account for your self-imposed exile from article writing. It's dirty down there in the trenches, as you know, try as one might to keep things pleasant. Cordiality can only go so far when it is a merely a gloss. In any case, it's good to see you have not abandoned the community outright and I await your return to penning the prose, of which the encyclopedia is made, on tenterhooks. Take care of yourself, Tiamut 12:05, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

'working with someone'. Ah, my bones whisper, RM! (No need to comment either way) I don't mind wrangling in muck, as long as one has a prospect of climbing out of it. I do mind wasting time on trivial bickering based on flag-waving. Light monitoring duties, like Nigel Bruce on patriotic nightwatch amid the sandbags and streets of London in WW2, perhaps fit an old codger like myself. Cheers Nishidani (talk) 14:13, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

I wish there more old codgers like you around my friend. By the way, what (or who) is RM? Tiamut 17:58, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

No, not him, but good guess, as its someone he has worked with. And how do you know of his work? Nishidani! You neer cease to amaze me! (nice Italian by the way. between french and spanish I can pretty much make out what it means, but I'm not sure my written spanish is anywhere near as good). Á bientôt mon ami. Tiamut 21:57, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

Request

Hi there Nishidani. Since you have commented on a recent case, could you please have your say here? Thanks. -- fayssal / Wiki me up® 05:38, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

Hi, Fayssal. I've read the thread twice, and only discovered how profoundly ignorant I am about what computers do and how they work through routers and IPs. My computer broke down finally some 10 days ago and I've bought, and work from, a completely new one, and, looking at this case, can only wonder if the change makes me out to be I(S)P-wise an editor with a different electronic profile than the one I had with the old computer!?

I don't think my opinion would be anything more than that, on the page, and therefore have withheld commenting. Since the evidence is extremely technical, on these things I tend to take administrators at their word, esp. when 3 of proven experience, caution and balance like yourself, Lar and Alison concur. The only thing that worries me is that Tiamut noted NoC had way back posted a protest against an antisemitic remark, so his presumed attack on Einsteindonut is queer. I tend to go overboard and call for permanent bans when racist or antisemitic remarks are dropped, so I instinctively backed your decision, even though I couldn't see much in Einsteindonut's evidence (as opposed to the larger environment you controlled). I also didn't comment because I think your overall interventions on this have shown in their cautious balance something that is often lacking in administrative judgements, a psychological acumen into the otherwise tacit politics that appear to be going on.

You guys have to do a tremendous amount of hard labour at the digital coalface because of bad user habits, and I can only hope that, as Carcaroth and some others suggest, one works out a method to make people who want to edit wiki use a single account. This blather because I feel a bit stupid and embarrassed that I can't reply adequately to your request on the relevant page: it requires a mastery of technical details I lack. Best wishes Nishidani (talk) 08:09, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

:) Thanks Nishidani. Fair enough. -- fayssal / Wiki me up® 08:20, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

Conflict

It was a political speech and so should have been in blockquotes, that was the confusion on my part. speeches by politician rarely use historical "facts"....Ashley kennedy3 (talk) 16:26, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

Thanks...Ashley kennedy3 (talk) 16:26, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

Analysis

Text:

I haven't found any reference to whether classical arabic replaced its pre-classical ancestor (with origins supposedly stretching back to the 4th Century CE) or existed alongside it.

All languages in their 'classical' form (usually 'classical' here means a subjective judgement on the best literary style in a language, i.e,. Athenian Greek as compared to other dialects, or Mycenaean, one of its ancestors) descend from an ancestral language, which they replace (as the English of Shakespeare and Johnson replaced Chaucer's, as Racine's replaced Villon's). They develop out of internal changes taking place within that ancestral language. Since a 'classical' language descends from an earlier pre-classical language, the former language parent is ipso facto dead, since it survives only in its classical form. Classical Arabic derived from a pre-classical form, which might also have generated other dialects in its branches of descent. If those 'cousin' descendants are more conservative than the classical form, preserving more archaic features, lost in the classical form, those dialects are not 'the pre-classical ancestor', but collateral affines contemporary with the major descendent, the one arbitrary history and literacy has accorded linguistic primogeniture to.

The notion of 'descent' from an ' ancestor' in linguistics was taken over from 19th.century Darwinianism. The metaphor carries with it the same implications of natural descent. If I descend from an ancestor I 'replace' him also because he is dead. If Shakespeare's language replaces Chaucer's, and we say Chaucer's English was the ancestor of the former, the implicit meaning is Chaucer's language was 'dead' (going the way of all ancestors) by Shakespeare and Bacon's day.

In that sense, a pre-classical language can no more exist side by side with the classical language that superceded it, than can a ancestral forebear exist side by side with his distant descendents. That is what I meant by logical implication. Sorry if this has led to any misunderstandings. I used Italian for discretionary reasons, and because, when I clicked I saw only Malta and Italian, and thought it discreet to phrase it in a private idiom you would be thoroughly familiar with. Perhaps indeed the point is trivial, but Eastern and Western Christianity split precisely over what, to us, seems trivialities of this linguistic order. In the area of wiki I specialise in, noticing small things about language is crucial for establishing NPOV. Regards Nishidani (talk) 21:33, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

You've written, 'a pre-classical language can no more exist side by side with the classical language that superceded it, than can a ancestral forebear exist side by side with his distant descendents': but as far as I can see, it's not about 'distant descendents'.. it's whenever the subjective decision that the language became 'classical' was made. And if a classical language's status exists in its literary qualities, wouldn't the 'non-literary pre-classical' language persist?

Anyway. I probably wouldn't list my misuse of evolutionary language in linguistics alongside medieval disputes over the precedence of the Holy Spirit. But it's an interesting thought.. take care. Piːtru Farrutʃ (talk) 21:57, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

Discussion with Jaakobou on English usage, copied from his page

Not that it really matters, but Tiamut is a self professed Israeli-Arab female. I'm not entirely sure if the article should just go due to it's status or that the issues could be worked out. Random reverts with uncivil commentary, though, make me concerned that you might be correct. I'm keeping hopeful that "stiffened necks" might loosen a bit and that the article could become encyclopedic rather than a mouthpiece. Jaakobou 07:48, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

Jaakobou, I am a self-professed Palestinian citizen of Israel. It's nice that you got my gender right, but when prefacing statements with "self-professed", a little sensitivity toward how I represent my identity might be in order. I'm quite sure you are aware of how the most Palestinians in Israel find the term "Israeli-Arab" to be somewhat insulting. Cordially, Tiamut 17:43, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

I apologize for offending you Tiamut. I would appreciate a link to your claim that your terminology is indeed majority preferred by Palestinian citizens of Israel. Jaakobou 18:04, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

I'm not claiming that most Palestinians in Israel prefer my terminology, Jaakobou. I relayed to you how I construct my identity (something I thought we had discussed before) and asked you to respect that. The only claim I made was that most Palestinians in Israel find the term you used (i.e. "Israeli Arab") to be insulting. I'm surprised you're not aware of that. It is covered somewhat inferentially in the article on Arab citizens of Israel, but to respond to your request for a "citation", this one by Jonathan Cook says:

Although most continue to identify themselves as Palestinian, preferring to be called Palestinian citizens of Israel, the state identifies them as ‘Israeli Arabs’ – a term some of them find as offensive as black Americans might today at being called ‘negroes’.

I hope that satisfactorily addresses your concerns. Tiamut 18:25, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

I was somewhat confused that you used "most Palestinians in Israel" in your statement. I have no qualms about apologizing for as well as correcting my error in regards to your personal self-descriptive. I'm still left confused by your somewhat surprising "most" claim when the provided source is a Nazareth based writer of both Electronic Intifada and The Guardian which uses the term "some". I'm fairly certain that had the term truly been offensive to the majority of Palestinian-Arab civilians of Israel as you ascertained, then it would not have been used by the BBC. Heck, even Azmi Bishara uses the term and no one suspects him of being an Israel-o-phile.

Btw, I find Jonathan Cook's mention that some Arabs are as offended by 'Israeli Arabs' as (most) Black Americans are offended by 'Negroes' - to be a completely improper (read: grotesque sensationalism, borderline anti-Semitic blood libel) statement that leads the reader by the nose to mistakenly assume that Israel may have treated Arab citizens of the state as the Whites did to the Blacks not too long ago (see also: Slavery in the United States). This "writer" truly earned any superlatives I may endow upon him in the future.

Cordially, Jaakobou 19:21, 11 September 2008 (UTC) clarify. 19:22, 11 September 2008 (UTC) add. 19:39, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

General discussion with Nishidani

People who are self-assured of their identity, and their cultural world, shouldn't really be asked to 'prove' it, Jaakobou, particularly when they belong to minorities. So it was somewhat indelicate, as a Jewish Israeli, to push for evidence. I'm glad to note you have apologized. If you have an identity, you don't cast about to shore it up with data, unless you are lacking self-assurance and not known for reliability, as a wikipedian, unlike our Tiamut. In any case, I do have the data you requested, that confirm her remark, and am happy to share it. After the al-Aqsa Intifada, the early poll results which showed roughly 40% of Arabs in Israel described their identity as hyphenated by using 'Israeli', changed rapidly. From that time, things changed (I can't find the data I have from the Haifa region, I'll put it in when these wretchedly messy files of mine are collated). David Rudge's "Poll - Israeli Arabs' Palestinian identity Growing', published in the Jerusalem Post, on March 31, 2000 revealed that there had been a 25% collapse in the earlier (1996) figure: only 15% of Arab citizens of Israel identified themselves with an hyphenated Israeli-. Instead 80% described themselves variously as Palestinians or Arab-Palestinians in Israel (However, Donna Rosenthal, in her The Israelis: Ordinary People in an Extraordinary Land, Simon & Schuster, New York 2005 p. 256, gives the 2000 figure as 70%. It depends how you break down the data).

Of course, polls fluctuate over time, and fresher evidence might alter the picture. But Donna Rosenthal's recent book, and also Steven V.Mazie's 2006 book, Israel’s Higher Law:Religion and Liberal Democracy in the Jewish State, Lexington Books p.79 showcase this data, and confirm the truth of Tiamut's remarks.Nishidani (talk) 19:54, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

Hello Nishidani,

I think you kind of owe me an apology here for claiming I asked Tiamut to prove her ethnicity. I did no such thing and accepted it at face value on her own assertions that she is a Palestinian citizen of Israel.

The debate was on her surprising claim that the term 'Israeli-Arab' is offensive to the majority of the Arabs in my country. Your polls btw, do not assert this claim - see Misuse of statistics (let me know if this requires further explanation).

With respect, Jaakobou 20:11, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

(postscript added) She didn't say 'offensive'. She said they found 'it somewhat insulting'. That somewhat means for the majority of 'Israeli-Arabs', being called such rather than 'Palestinians' of whatever absolute or hyphenated form (which is what 80% prefer to be called), bears a derogative nuance, strong or slight as it may be. It is implicit in the rapid drop in the number of Arab citizens of Israel who identify themselves as 'Arab-Israelis'. Nuance is not caught by statistics. But those statistics 'speak for themselves', and underwrite Tiamut's remark.

Now, now, Jaakobou, you are, permit me, shifting the goal-posts. You have some regard, from past encounters, for my having the appearance of being a precisian in linguistic niceties. Let me give you a little lesson in construal of what is not your native idiom.

(a)'Tiamut is a self-professed Israeli-Arab female

Comment. 'Self-professed' means 'self-proclaimed', which means 'based on one's own assertion' . A self-proclaimed/self-professed genius is someone who asserts he is a genius, with the implication that the assertion is subjective, and not one generally shared. 'Self-professed' is actually a modern pleonasm, a calque on 'self-acknowledged', and in English historical prose, one simply said 'professed'. Professed meant 'openly declared or avowed by oneself; something with an implication of 'not real', and so = Alleged, ostensible, pretended' (OED vol.XII p.572 column 2, sect.2 sub professed).

To call Tiamut a 'self-professed Israeli-Arab' implies therefore to attuned native ears that only Tiamut asserts that she is 'Israeli-Arab', reducing a fact to a claim, and wrapping that claim up in doubt, indeed insinuating that it is not true but merely an alleged identity. 'Self-professed' implies, perhaps you missed this strong nuance, that Tiamut is not what you called an 'Israeli-Arab' a citizen of your country, but simply pretending to be one, indeed with female attached, the force of the adjective extends to it, and raises questions marks about her 'alleged' gender identity. Unfortunately this is the way language works, and in this sense everyone from Fichte, to Heidegger to Derrida is correct in saying, 'we do not speak language, language speaks through us' often making us say things which bear connotations the unwary do not note. Secondly, Tiamut has never professed to being an Israeli-Arab. She has, as long as I have run across her remarks on this aspect, always strongly identified herself as a Palestinian in Israel.

(b)Tiamut, whose feel for English is of a very high order, did not wholly miss this nuance (which is usually heard as extremely crass only by native speakers of a certain literary background), and, adopting your adjective ironically, replied:-

'I am a self-professed Palestinian citizen of Israel'

I say 'ironically' because she quickly added: 'when prefacing statements with "self-professed", a little sensitivity toward how I represent my identity might be in order'.

By putting 'self-professed' within inverted commas Tiamut alerted you to the problem I have expatiated on earlier. It carries, in short, a derogative connotation, common in mocking people's pretensions.

(c) She then made a generalization you later contested, as doubtful.

'most Palestinians in Israel find the term "Israeli-Arab" to be somewhat insulting'

(d)You replied: 'I apologize for offending you(,) Tiamut. I would appreciate a link to your claim that your terminology is indeed majority preferred by Palestinian citizens of Israel.'(a pardonable lapse given the medium we work in:= 'is indeed preferred by the majority of Palestinian citizens of Israel'.

The apology was due, and you gave it promptly, and for that you are again to be commended. The problem is that trailing afterthought you then hung on the end of the apology. You withdrew your (crass? let us say thoughtlessly casual) remark, only to repeat it in different terms, by asking for evidence to back her second affirmation. In other words (i) you said Tiamut claimed to be someone she may not be (in your perhaps unintended view) and when reproved apologized, only to ask her to prove something else, namely that most Palestinians in Israel find the first term you used of her 'someone insulting'.

One could overload wiki(it already happens) with hairsplitting queries on virtually every exchange made on talk-pages, requesting 'proof'. Now in normal human affairs, we do not footnote our every other remark (though my family has for decades mocked me gently as someone who even footnotes his jokes). Conversation can never exhaust the complex implications, intuitions, mental associations and subtle perceptions that interleave our words. We 'twig' the essential point, and when we avert somethings, simple withdraw, stay silent, or drop the tempted follow-up or repartee. Nothing in the rulebook in Wiki would find your second remark objectionable. It is simply a matter of style. You cut a finer figure, if you tread on sensitive toes, to drop the argument. You apologized, but did not drop the argument. This is all nuance, Jaakobou, and it certainly isn't easy for non-native speakers. You have shown notable progress (like myself) over the past year in these things, and these things would be nugatory peccadillos, were it not for the fact that our Tiamut happens to belong to an ethnic minority.

(e)When I supplied evidence that there was a radical shift in what Israelis called the language of 'Arab-Israeli' identity, you now turn to say I owe you an apology. I owe you no such thing, except, perhaps this lesson in English usage. My Haifa University data, read a year ago, and more recent than what I supplied, shows that there is a very pronounced generational shift in 'Arab-Israeli' perceptions, with the older generation conservatively accepting this formula, and the young eagerly asserting their Palestinian identity, often in a prickly way. The Haifa data revealed interviewees complaining of how they had to live dual lives. If in the streets and discoteques, they passed, for culture and mastery of colloquial Hebrew, as Jews, fine. If they reacted to some anti-Palestinian crack by admitting they were Arab/Palestinians, friendships froze up. To frig round with statistics when there is so much evidence of this order, anthropological and anecdotal, is rather, yes, crass. I would prefer not to end up on a sour note, but every Israeli knows their fellow Arab citizens are citizens of what is a Jewish state. Sensitivity and tact is therefore required by the majority, for the former can never be fully 'Israeli', can never wholly feel accepted, under those terms. A matter for reflection, and not for debate (and in no way implying Israel has no right to exist. Of course it does). You alleged, in an incautious use of 'self-profess' that Tiamut was neither an 'Arab-Israeli nor who she had said she was, and this was the original offense, implying she had a dubious statehood (Palestinian though in Israel): the rest is irrelevant. This is the end of my comment. I have an off-wiki reading backlog. Sincerely yours Nishidani (talk) 21:25, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

Nishidani,

I'm honestly not amused by your condescending conduct and bad faith allegations. English sub-context can mean a number of things even to native speakers of it and I don't much care for the way you falsely ascribe hyperbole to context and attack me on a personal level. To put it succinctly, only two people have made intentionally offensive comments on this discussion, the other's comments were removed.

Cheers, Jaakobou 23:02, 11 September 2008 (UTC) update. 23:07, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

Jaak, forgive me for interrupting, to be brutally honest, I don't think Nishdani's comments were in bad faith, and are more properly characterized as "pedantic" than "condescending". Nishdani (such as myself, I must admit) does tend less to compendiousness than most, and will often explain things at great length. However, I do not think he meant to attack you, but to explain why Tiamut would have responded as she did. Whether you agree with Tiamut's or Nishdani's facts and their interpretation is one thing. But as someone who lurks and monitors these various conversations, I think in this case, you may be responding with (understandable) defensiveness where it is not needed. Thanks. -- Avi (talk) 00:01, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

Jaakobou. Though I can see how my remarks might strike you as 'condescending', please note I am aware of this impression when I write, and strive to avoid it, though any advice from anyone can inevitably be construed as patronizing (my frequent advice to Ashley Kennedy, for example). Secondly, if you read what I wrote there is absolutely no assumption of 'bad faith'. To the contrary, I attributed your deafness to Tiamut's complaint to the fact that you, as a non-native speaker, used words whose resonant implications were probably not available to you, but were so to her.

Thanks, Avi. Pedantic is the correct word, and I confess I often feel like a lumbering species of garrulous dinosaur in a world full of more evolved types, swiftly efficient in thought to the point of weariness with nuance, laconic to the point of glibness. I only ask that the finicky murmur from the paleobiological creature in the zoo that I am, at times, be respected by passers-by as something well-intentioned, not as some insinuation by a Iagoesque beast in subtly lethal attack mode, like the panther behind the bars in Rilke's Im Jardin des Plantes: a witness to a different mode of observation, now in desuetude, but, not for that, devoid of interest.

Disputes, tiffs, conflicts can be papered over by waving a monitory flag to avert interlocutors of potential breaches in the wikiquette rule book. Flagging of this type shortcircuits understanding, because the code is too generic to capture the fugitive nuances in recurrent tensions. My occasional analyses at what must appear to be nauseous length, aspire to clarify some recondite dimensions that will always exist, perceptible between the lines, and that otherwise impatiently energetic wikipedians ignore as 'improductive' distractions, only to find that their disattention to nuance is itself productive of recurrent eruptions of simmering discontents. I will shortly suggest to Tiamut that this be dropped, and I suggest to Jaakobou that, as I said earlier, an ear for tone is essential for full mastery of a second language, and a certain capacity to twig potential conflict, and deftly sidestep temptations to press a trivial point, would further improve his work here. There, I've been tedious again. Back to Jurassic Park. Thanks, my friend, and best regards Nishidani (talk) 08:43, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

My dearest Nishidani, Of course, as usual, you have in your extensive analysis, accurately outlined many of the problems with what Jaakobou has said. In my last comment to him on his talk page, I made a final (rather sarcastic) attempt to get to see how consistently offensive and provocative his comments are. Whether he is conscious of this or not ...? There is WP:AGF and then there are my multiple experiences with him mocking, stereotyping, or otherwise denigrating the ethnic group with which I have quite openly identified.

Since our last tumble at WP:AE, I have been trying to avoid Jaakobou. However, he keeps appearing at articles I have either substantially contributed to like Land Day or just edited like Palestinian prisoners in Israel which makes such evasion difficult. I most certainly should not have engaged him on his talk page, as I did today, since it invariably leads to this kind of sordid drama. Going to WP:AE with this kind of complaint again is likely to be fruitless, since Jaakobou, while a serial offender, seems to have a knack for kicking up so much dust, no one can see the forest for the trees. It is too much though when, after you took so much time to try and explain to him the problem, he begins accusing you, so self-righteously, of disruption, without any regard for how his own actions and words disrupt the calm waters others are desperately trying to maintain. Any advice on what to do? Is there some kind of wiki clause that can be invoked to restrain one editor who takes a rather perverse interest in consistently and subtely provoking another? Or perhaps I am just fulfilling my need for catharsis. Thanks for listening my friend. Tiamut 23:27, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

Dearest Tiamut, to answer I must prevail on Wiki to indulge what might appear to be an abuse of its space for a personal discursive essay, at the risk of being chided by kibitzers for an WP:SOAP infraction. The problem is serious, and yet nothing much can be done about it, unless a sea-change in sensibility takes place, and not in just one minor protagonist. Unlikely.

I can't open a newspaper without seeing offensiveness splattered all over the most innocuous articles in the 'liberal' or mainstream press. Expressions, words, clichés of analysis, that are the stable currency of everyday language, and even of cultured salons, presume so much tolerance of intolerable assumptions about other peoples or classes, that one despairs, as lines from Pound's Mauberley murmur in one’s inward ear:

The age demanded an image

Of its accelerated grimace,

Something for the modern stage,

Not, at any rate, an Attic grace;

Karl Kraus once quipped to the Czech musician Ernst Krenek that the bombing of Shanghai in the early 1930s would never have occurred if people were, like him, attentive to the minutiae of punctuation. The hyperbole is often mocked in the secondary literature. Yet Kraus, like that other extraordinary Jewish mind, Kafka, foresaw WW2 two decades earlier because the potential for apocalyptic violence was implicit in the very prose of otherwise respectable newspapers, and the mode of thought of otherwise intelligent people, who thought they had buried war, the war of WW1, and left it behind them. As a neurotically meticulous stylist, he heard a deathknell in what others at best too to be the playful, tingling jingle of repartee. Part of this just hypersensitivity to the nuances of otherwise casual language, which has had immense literary impact, (but is lost on our average daily world), comes ironically from the lessons of antisemitism, and it is no coincidence that the Jewish intelligentsia of the Haskalah contributed substantially to the refinement of our ability to hear undertones of this kind. As heirs to millenia of discrimination as a despised minority, they could twig menace in what, in the wider community, passed for a light jab of ethnic wit, a vagrant sortie of chiacking repartee, or indeed a justifiable characterisation of deplorable traits associated by hearsay with that minority. They taught us to read prejudice even in ostensibly polite, well-meaning words, or the exercises of a great poet (Christopher Ricks ‘s, T.S.Eliot and Prejudice (1988) kicked off a trenchant debate on this, for example). Unfortunately, the lesson is all too often retained in the post-1945/1948 world, only in contexts where Jewish sensitivities are at stake, and not generalized beyond that community. We have innumerable well-funded organs with global reach monitoring antisemitism (and they are indispensable), almost none catch the parallel diffusion of anti-Arabism, anti-Palestinianism. It is as if, to put down the indigestible foulness of the Holocaust as the consummation of Western prejudice, we transferred holus bolus a tradition of ethnic antipathy to some more reticent, lerss capably self-defensive, more marginal semitic victim, while apologizing to our Jewish bretheren. The Eurocentric prejudice was dropped, out of shame, in regard to its traditional victims but survives under a pseudonym less readily identifiable as prejudice, against the victims’ victims, after Europe got rid of its Jewish communities and thrust them on Israel, where any native reaction to the project could be recast as anti-Semitic fundamentalism, and the West could feign to be redeeming its own sins by collaborating in the repression of ‘terrorism’ (national redress, often violent, by the violently dispossessed).

The other day, by pure chance, I came across a photo on a forum with a huge Israeli tractor bulldozing an olive grove, and below the rise where it worked, several 'unkempt' Palestinians, tossing stones in futile frustration at the gargantuan metallic juggernaut hovering above to rip out their livelihood. The rubric ran: 'Where would you prefer the Arab to be? driving this bulldozers, or under it!' The allusion was to the two episodes in Jerusalem, the triumphant battuta effortlessly naive in its darkly violent attempt to meld an ethnic slur with comedy. The forum was full of this material. This kind of thing doesn't even make the backpages, nor does my daily overhearing in my area of frustrated outbursts against invasive 'islamic' immigrants as 'scum' (most are actually Nigerian Christians or non-practicing, canny Moroccan street-vendors). Cartoons or quips with the slightest edge of infringing political correctness in regard to Jewish or Israeli interests, make the front page globally, they elicit supersonic patrolling by the valiant myrmidons of groups from the minuscule JIDF up to the Anti-Defamation League. Palestinians have only a mere century of dispossession, discrimination, diaspora, to their account, and they are, to boot, 'Arabs', (as problematical as Jews in the Western imagination since the 7th. century CE). This is, in the wildly arbitrary reportorial mechanisms of our modern world, treated as a trivial debt in the historical accountancy of prejudice, a debt to be noted and rolled over sometime (a millenium?) after we have amortized the larger, inextinguishable debt of anti-semitism.

People don't get these linguistic reverberations any more in the otherwise blatant sidedness of our ‘public opinion’ and its discourse, and if you live on the edge of nuance, you will be taken to be daft. This literary preamble is small consolation for the slight you suffered. In this instance, one cannot remonstrate with Jaakobou's tacit worldview, or the timbre of remarks he thinks innocuous, though they come over as leaden and offensive. The problem is not Jaakobou. His slips are the overt witness to attitudes many other posters, (not the very fine ones who moderate us here), keep under wraps.

One has to live with this imbalance. Protest is of little avail. There is no consolation. Here, the object is to improve Wiki I/P articles. One cannot, as PR, tends to do, overfocus on the obvious, yet invisible, cantedness of the world's perspective. You and I have talked in the past briefly of karameh and صمود, and it is hard for an outsider like me to advise the dignity of silence, without feeling priggishly condescending, since that offers no immediate relief. But it is one thing, in the end, that might prove more telling than 'rising to the bait'. I genuinely do think Jaakobou simply is deaf to these nuances, while hypersensitive to his own ethnic and national interests, something which makes him interpret the self-defensiveness of other groups, that happen to be a minority, as an attack on an imperilled identity of what is, to outsiders, an immensely strong vibrant and successful nation. When he and others in here will learn to understand that the desire to be Palestinian, a stateless people in an exiguous patch of occupied land, is nothing more than the history of Zionism mirrored in the mimetic scaled-down aspirations of its victims,with the crucial difference that it has no pretension to seize the age-old land of others, but merely to reclaim its own natural right to title of what remains, and thus constitutes not a threat, but the only long-term guarantee of the state of Israel, powerful, thriving and recognized, to achieve peace with its neighbours, is not for me to forecast. Texts that register criticism of Israel cannot be held to ransom, and blocked from Wiki articles, as anti-Semitic, nor their authors, when Jewish, branded as self-haters for ever. I can only conclude by advising you to drop the complaint, which is more than legitimate, and trust that there are many admins and editors who watch, take note, and intervene on these matters, if no improving tendency to avoid provocative language is forthcoming. Best regards, as ever Nishidani (talk) 10:46, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

Hello, Nishdani. One general comment, if I may. Jaak may have a tendency to defensiveness. This is understandable if you realize that he may have been treated unfairly by those whose political inclinations are different from his. While he may have started out as a more sontentious editor, over the past year or so, he has been working diligently to work within wiki guidelines, and in the main, has been very successful. Regardless, his comments have often been disregarded or minimalized based on past history, and that can be very frustrating. Understanding on all sides would be very helpful, as Jaak has, is, and will hopefully contribute to the betterment of the minefield that I/P articles have become. Thanks, and thanks again for not minding my uncalled for interruptions. -- Avi (talk) 13:58, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

Hi Nishdani. Are you still mentoring PR? In my opinion, edits such as this one indicate a continued focus by PR on continuing inter-editor squabbling, and a continuation of the "poking a hornets nest with a stick" activity that has made it difficult for others to mentor him previously. Perhaps you can drop a note on his page, I do not know of anyone else to whom he would listen, which will not serve him well should his future actions and edits return him as the subject of a community discussion. Thank you very much. -- Avi (talk) 19:55, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

Karameh and صمود are never in question my dear Nishidani. They are still bulwarks where I come from despite attempts to pretend they do not exist, that we do not exist. I have over the years become so accustomed to the ignorance, willful and otherwise, that these kind of interactions where that subtext is just below the surface, while sometimes irritating and slightly depressing, can no longer shake my foundations.

I remember being spat at once when I was 16 years old by what must have been an 80-year old woman who said, "You people are animals," when I tried to hand her a pamphlet about what was happening in Palestine. She shook me - though I recall that my immediate response was to smile, and say "thank you," and then take a break from pamphleting to cry about the inhumanity and absurdity of it all. That was many years ago, and many many other things happened, before and since - all of which have taught me that while I cannot control people's perceptions and actions toward me, I can certainly control my own perceptions and actions towards them.

Your counsel is wise and I don't take it as a recommendation toward capitulation. There are simply some battles not worth fighting, and the one thing that is constant, and something of a consolation to an embattled nation like my own, is change. I appreciate your verbose and passionate defense of the human spirit, and your energetic support. You are an extraordinary person, and it is my great pleasure to have made your acquaintance here. I never cease learning from what you write, how you think, and how you carry yourself above the fray, and I thank you for sharing all of that with us. Take care, Tiamut 11:32, 13 September 2008 (UTC)

If there was any equivocation in what I wrote yesterday that might have allowed some incautious and naive readers (PR) to take my words as advising 'capitulation', it would not have occurred had I managed to retain the opening paragraph, where I noted that karameh (honour) in Wiki is paged only as a Jordanian town where 156 Palestinians died, in defensive action. It, like several other edits, went down the virtual black hole because of momentary difficulties with this new computer. As always Nishidani (talk) 12:57, 13 September 2008 (UTC)

Need advice regarding article deletion

I've come to appreciate your counsel, Nishidani, so when I encounter problems here, I turn to you first. I hope you don't mind too much!

Yesterday, using Petraeus/BBC: NO victory in sight as my WP:RS, I started Petraeus on Iraq. The Petraeus statement passes WP:Notable and the BBC is surely a WP:RS. Nonetheless, the article was summarily deleted. I don't understand why. I was not even given an opportunity to challenge the deletion on the article's talk page, since that too was deleted. This is ridiculous! What should I do next? -- NonZionist (talk) 21:48, 13 September 2008 (UTC)

Apologies for deleting your remark higher up. (Facile recourse to Nazi analogies, like shoah-biz and chucking antisemitic labels comes cheap). Main reason though was that the exchange addressed a hurt, and was, well, 'private' (neither I nor Tiamut use email on principle). Nishidani (talk) 08:46, 14 September 2008 (UTC)

(Interrupting) That's why I suggested deletion. I wanted to offer my support, however "cheap", but I felt a reluctance to intrude. -- NonZionist (talk) 13:06, 14 September 2008 (UTC)

Didn't wish to say your support was 'cheap', but make a generalisation, with an implicit piece of advice, about ever using casual analogies of that calibre. The world pressures us to ratchet up rhetoric and use its clichés. A first step back towards sanity is to use words with a certain austere sense of their contextual fitness, and not be sucked in to cant. Sorry if I in saying this I seemed offensive.Nishidani (talk) 13:51, 14 September 2008 (UTC)

Multiplying articles is generally not a good idea, unless new or ancillary material to hand is so extensive that forking is advised to avoid undue weight. Creating a new article or a fork should imply that the editor has several reliable sources. You can't make an article out of one or two sources (Except for the JIDF!!!) Nishidani (talk) 08:46, 14 September 2008 (UTC)

(Interrupting again) I confess: I was looking for a way to get around edit wars, a way to get important information into an article QUICKLY. The idea was to separate composition from integration: First, compose the article, then worry about integrating it into the encyclopedia later. "Multiplying articles" leads, at least temporarily, to WP:MuPOV -- MULTIPLE points of view -- something I DO regard as a "good idea", since it mirrors the real world and reduces edit-war paralysis.

This is an encyclopedia under composition, with 2 and a half million articles, with a few thousands that reach high standards. Knowledge is clawed in slowly over time. There are a huge number of edits (see the Shuafat talkpage for just one of thousands) which strike me as quick, without merit, and just politically censorious. Particularly in the I/P area, where work and scrutiny is intense, we have little that passes the sophomore snuff. The best way to contribute is to work off page, studying a subject thoroughly, and then returning to edit already existing articles with assurance. No one is obliged to do that, very few do. Think over the long term, because short-term work in this area is mainly, between the lines, securing political images by stacking details to one's partisan advantage, something which mirrors what even the mainstream press (one major source of information for wiki) does, wittingly or otherwise. I've always thought mastery of details, and clear presentation, makes a sufficient case for most things one might be passionate about. I disagree with Benny Morris, but he's proved far more influentialn than partisan polemicists for a Zionist interpretation of that world, simply because he knows most archives inside out.Nishidani (talk) 13:42, 14 September 2008 (UTC)

I am rapidly becoming convinced that WP:NPOV is untenable: The directive, if it works at all, creates a bias towards the non-controversial, a bias we already see, overwhelmingly, in the Establishment mis-media, and we end up becoming a pale imitation of the Readers Digest. A lot of effort is being invested to achieve a result that satisfies no one: Are you sure there's no better way? -- NonZionist (talk) 13:06, 14 September 2008 (UTC)

True, but see above.Nishidani (talk) 13:42, 14 September 2008 (UTC)

There's huge volumes of work to be done in this area. Book sources are rare and we are becoming a dumping house for newspaper clips. I haven't checked but surely there's some article on The Surge? I opened an article on Antonio Saura in the Italian Wiki for a friend yesterday, who didn't known much about Wiki but knows a lot about modernism and Spanish painting. It got slapped down. It will be back, when my friend starts putting in extensive material from many sources. If you want proposals to stick, develop them on a work-page on your computer, until you reach a point where others can see considerable work from multiple reliable sources has been done. Regards, and don't hesitate to ask if I can help (Bob Woodward's new book has fresh material on the Petraeus surge's background, by the way).Buon lavoroNishidani (talk) 08:46, 14 September 2008 (UTC)

I respect your judgment, here. You are saying that I have to make editing a full-time job -- my life's work. It's "all or nothing": Making no contribution at all is better than making a small contribution. In other words, I should return to forums, where intellectual freedom reigns and the full truth can be told without impediment, and I should forget about working to bring the encyclopedias up to speed. (I know that is not what you intend to say, but that is what you are implying.) -- NonZionist (talk) 13:06, 14 September 2008 (UTC)

And I am flattered you think that I, something of a pedantically fixated oddball, might be worth seeking advice from. I don't think editing should be a lifetime's job, ***(*) forbid. I am saying that the great weakness of 95% of editors is that they are hyperactive, and don't read the relevant secondary literature, which is decades ahead of them, since they draw on journalism, which is mostly hackwork by people writing to a daily deadline. Here editors edit to a minute by minute deadline, to erase or challenge words, refs., that they rather paranoiacally think undermines their preferred image in any article. A little slow work among books does wonders. I'm not holding you personally to what is a personal standard others don't share. I'm merely suggesting this is what real encyclopedic editing, as opposed to informational politicking, is about. The former sticks for a few days, the latter endures. One superbly informed edit is better than a hundred attempts, battling POV warriors, that look like they'll only stick around for a few days or months. My best wishes for whatever tack you choose to take and, as I said, I'm happy to help, if you still think I can offer advice that might prove useful for the editorial approach you think suits you best. regards Nishidani (talk) 13:42, 14 September 2008 (UTC)

In retrospect

Hi Nishidani,
Back on track: Perhaps we've gotten onto a bad route with this one. I gave it a bit of extra thought and reached the conclusion that my suggestion, that an apology was in order, is not neccesary since you had no mal-intentions even it it were possible to assume that you did. I take my previous claim to this back if you will accept such an act.
Misbehavior, mistranslations and misunderstandings: I can see where you'd feel it justified to suggest my comment as "demanding a minority prove they are a minority" even if that was, quite clearly IMHO not the case (I'll explain this in a bit just to keep on the safe side). I had trouble though, wrapping my brain around why you'd insist to the justness of such intentions/interpretations from my text, esp. considering how just recently I took the time to note another editor when they had misunderstood your intentions and became angry at you for their misunderstanding. Collaboration and respect, I felt were a two way street rather than a one way ally.
Minorities: Perhaps I do not understand how it eluded you -- since you emphsize respect for minorities all the time -- but a source was used by the offended party which compared Jews with white supremacy and slave driving on their native land of all places. On top of this, it were suggested that the term Israeli was, in general, down-right offensive.
Intent 1: In wikipedia, it's best not to make inclusive assumptions/suggestions about other editors and talk behind their backs. When I clarify something an editor had said about himself, I will not say "he is", but rather say "self professed/noted about themselves/suggested that/etc.". This could be understood as though I'm suggesting doubt, but it is not my place to assert this input as accurate as it is quite possible that I misunderstood or remembered incorrectly.
Intent 2: With the good intention of avoiding insulting the majority of Israel's Arabs I requested clarification to a perspective that seemed a minority among Israeli-Arabs. I personally know several Israeli-Arabs who are not only not offended by the term, but are proud of the possibilities this country gives them. So in order to verify if my understanding of the issue was incorrect, I requested a clarification to a claim that seemed dubious. Tiamut deserves to be titled as she wishes, but I had the general public in mind.
Summation: Minority sensitivities are important in today's advanced society. Surly both you and I care about these sensitivities and wish to defend them when we see a fault. However, I think we should not jump to conclusions and ascribe fault before inquiry as it's been established that we're both at risk of being misunderstood and even accused of antisemitism/racism.
With respect, Jaakobou 14:51, 14 September 2008 (UTC)