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Croatia Unassessed

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Serbia Unassessed

This article is within the scope of WikiProject Serbia, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Serbia on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.SerbiaWikipedia:WikiProject SerbiaTemplate:WikiProject SerbiaSerbia ??? This article has not yet received a rating on Misplaced Pages's content assessment scale. ??? This article has not yet received a rating on the project's importance scale.

Archives

/Archive 1 /Archive 2 /Archive 3

Names removal

I'm not saying all these guys are valid, some appear to be mere Krajina rebels. I'm just saying we need to determine who's who first. --DIREKTOR 01:32, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

I have looked who is who before removal.

My point in asking for advice has been to see if there are mistakes in my removals.--Rjecina (talk) 01:50, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

You should put back Medo Pucić, I'm 100% sure he's a Serb from Croatia(Dubrovnik). You should also put back the names of Serbs who's ancestors are Serbs from Croatia. I'm not very sure that Svetozar Boroević was a Serb I'll need to check that out. Rade Šerbedžija isn't a Serb but a chetnik but it's the same. Petar Preradović isn't a Serb so just put back Medo Pucić and Serbs of Serbian acestry from Croatia. You should also put Stefan Mesić in your list. The Editor14 (talk) 11:01, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

On this shorter list I am having problems with:

Jovanka Broz because she is wife of prominent person and not prominent person

Josif Pančić because he is Bunjevac and only latter self-declared Serb. On other side we are having Svetozar Boroević which is Serb but latter self-declared Croat . They both can't be on this list.--Rjecina (talk) 20:43, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

"Boroević was born into a Serb Orthodox family in the village of Umetić near Kostajnica, Croatia."Mike Babic (talk) 02:50, 14 September 2008 (UTC)

Yes we are having agreement about this but Josif Pančić is not born in Serb Orthodox family.--Rjecina (talk) 02:55, 14 September 2008 (UTC)

Just throwing out a wild idea. How about we follow policy and find a source that describes them as Serbs before listing them? Preferably one that self-referential, i.e., they themselves describe themselves that way. That way, it's consistent, it's settled, and I can ignore my need for following WP:BLP for living people like Stojakovic. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 06:07, 14 September 2008 (UTC)

University of Maryland

With respect to the revert http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Serbs_of_Croatia&diff=238257036&oldid=238250071

Please explain your last revert. Your revert is based on a claim that the website is not valid. This is 100% WRONG. The website is an official website of a university. It even has an extension "umd.edu" in its name. Which means that it is the official website of University of Maryland. The website is clearly reference by sources such as: Human Rights Watch World Report and the US Department of State Human Rights Reports. Lastly, I have provided a link to the website below. The revert is wrong. With respect to the information provided here, I expect you to undo it.

http://www.cidcm.umd.edu/mar/assessment.asp?groupId=34401 Mike Babic (talk) 02:07, 14 September 2008 (UTC)

Source is not OK because article on official website of a university is writen by university "genius". Only "genius" expert can write about Franz Ferdinand's imposition of dictatorial rule in Yugoslavia. This article is writen by somebody which do not know anything about Yugoslavia, Bosnia, Croatia or Serbia and because of that it can't be used in wiki (wikipedia reliability rules).--Rjecina (talk) 02:20, 14 September 2008 (UTC)

In regards to the links of sources and credentials provided above I replied to Rjecina. With all do respect, Center for International Development and Conflict Management along with world renowned University of Maryland, College Park is a valid source. Your statements lack sources. You need to provide a valid sources for your claims. I believe this is a fair request because you're trying to discredit reports that were created by University of Maryland, College Park and reference by United States government records and United nation reports. lastly, similar information can be found on the UNHCR website at: http://www.unhcr.org/refworld/country/4562d8b62/HRV.htmlMike Babic (talk) 02:30, 14 September 2008 (UTC)

With all do respect can you please read your source ( http://www.cidcm.umd.edu/mar/assessment.asp?groupId=34401 ) and only after that attack my statements ? My proposition for you is to read section Analytic Summary and then look for words Franz Ferdinand ?

I am waiting your comments about Boroevic and Pančić on this talk page from 22 August--Rjecina (talk) 02:39, 14 September 2008 (UTC)

Rjecina, what is your argument? what is the problem with the statement? I can only wildly imagined that the report talks about the Franz's rule in 1920 when in fact he died in 1914. if this is the case, please let me know because I see it differently. For example,"Franz Ferdinand's imposition of dictatorial rule" is stating that he "imposed" the dictatorial rule. so, the article isn't really stating that he's alive. Once again, please let me know what your problem is with the information so we can work it out. I hate to waste my time explaining ideas and sources however I hate being wrong even more.Mike Babic (talk) 02:48, 14 September 2008 (UTC)

I am sure that this is only article in the world where Franz Ferdinand is connected with fascist Ustaše movement:

"The origins of conflict between Croats and Serbs in the former Yugoslavia can be traced back at least as far as the late 1920s when Franz Ferdinand's imposition of dictatorial rule led former political opposition parties to form terrorist groups such as the above-mentioned Croatian Ustase and the Macedonian IMRO"--Rjecina (talk) 02:54, 14 September 2008 (UTC)

although the idea is certainly novel to me, I cannot refute it. It basically states that the oppression that was started by Franz Ferdinand led to terrorists groups being formed. The statement is logical as I can see how oppressed population can form, and in fact does form in a number of cases terrorist groups. Rjecina, I'm sorry I don't agree with your arguments. Please let me know if I need to explain this a little bit further.Mike Babic (talk) 02:59, 14 September 2008 (UTC)

I really can't help you, because I can't understand that somebody who want to write about Serbs history do not know Kingdom of Yugoslavia history. My only possible advice for you is to buy book Yugoslavia: A Concise History: Revised and Updated Edition by Leslie Benson or to look for right wikipedia articles.--Rjecina (talk) 03:16, 14 September 2008 (UTC)

Rjecina, I'm asking for your statement. What you're refuting in that report. You're not making concrete accusations you need to refute the facts. To reply, I have bought a book called "Povjest Hrvata" written by V. Klaic. The book was published in Zagreb in 1974, and was part five at a six part series. The book talks about Croatia between 1527 and 1740. I bought the book because a large number of Serbs left their native homeland of Serbia in order to escape rape, murder and torture by the Ottomans. I was interested to see the Croatian viewpoint written by Croatian historians. I have been very disappointed. The book has 691 pages. I have these pages there are literally two pages when he mentioned Serbs. In all other references we were mentioned as "Vlahs". Thus in my opinion, it is the Croatian people in their historians who are just as misguided. Lastly, Rjecina, you can't buy historical books from certain times. For example, if you had bought a book on history of Serbs during the 1945 Croatia it would have been false. This book would have had many references of Serbs being subhuman. Just like it would have been false if you bought it during the time of Yugoslavia, when the communist rule. in this case, the book would have been concentrated on how Croatians and Serbs are "brothers". This brings me to your "recommended book". For starters, the author also wrote a book called "Encyclopedia of Two Hour Craft Projects". This means nothing, however it could also mean that the author simply write for money and could have used sources that were not backed up. He couldn't even inflated certain aspects of the war in order to sell more books. Lastly, going back to the reasons why you can't buy historical books now they're written in United States of America or United Kingdom by certain authors I'm going to say this; America is an empire, along with it comes with the ability to manipulate people's minds and rewrite history. This will remain so as long as we have a unilateral world. On a lighter note, judging by the current actions of Russia in Georgia, statement of the prime minister of Russia, and deployment of strategic bombers in Venezuela also by Russia, will most likely have two world powers and thus a clearer sense of what really happened in Yugoslavia.Mike Babic (talk) 03:33, 14 September 2008 (UTC)

We are having agreement about US policy and I support Russia.

but we are not speaking about propaganda but about victim of serbian terrorist Franz Ferdinand. --Rjecina (talk) 04:29, 14 September 2008 (UTC)

every terrorist is a freedom fighter for someone, in this example Serbs were oppressed in Bosnia during the Austrian rule. thus, when Gavrilo Princip killed him it wasn't without a reason. Throughout history, Serbs have stood up to oppressive governmentsMike Babic (talk) 04:41, 14 September 2008 (UTC)

Yes every terrorist for 1 side is a freedom fighter for another. In Yugoslavia or today Serbia he is freedom fighter, but for Austria, Germany, France, UK or US he is terrorist.

In my thinking Gavrilo Princip is idealistic person, but he has been under control of Serbian secret service and this has been greatest problem.--Rjecina (talk) 21:13, 14 September 2008 (UTC)

Vlah

I remember reading somewhere that the term Vlah was used by the Croatians historians to describe the Serbs. It was basically a racist name for a Serbian person living in Croatia in the 15th century. Thus, this was not in reference to a race of people other then the Serbs. Could anyone comment on this.Mike Babic (talk) 02:33, 14 September 2008 (UTC)

This "your" story has been defeated in March 2008 with consensus against you. Vote has been 3:1. Because when we speak about nations in Balkan we must say everything 2 voters in this consensus are from Croatia and 1 is from Serbia. In that month Mike Babic has been alone against others and now we are having second try.--Rjecina (talk) 02:52, 14 September 2008 (UTC)

Rjecina, I have been talking to you on this discussion board for over a couple of hours now. You continue to accuse me, as an editor. This is against the rules. Also, it you seem to get the wrong message. In this section, labeled "Vlah", I have tried to open a discussion on the topic and nothing else. To discuss your last comment above this comment, the comment simply doesn't add any value to the discussion. I'm asking that the topic be brought up for discussion again because I have been reading a book by a Serbian author who is stating that the term Vlah is simply a racist term for a Serb that was used by some historians.Mike Babic (talk) 04:08, 14 September 2008 (UTC)

Let us first return to basic. Do you agree about with statements that during war with Turks Serbs and Vlachs have come to live in Military Frontier ?

Old question about this Serbian author what will we do about Habsburg emperor Vlachs laws ?

Statement of this author is saying enough about his "NPOV" position. When I see anybody statement in Croatian and Serbian affairs about somebody, or some without name I am reading nationalistic propaganda (this is my position). We need names. If this Serbian author has writen:"In his book John Smith has never spoken about Serbs but only about Vlachs then we are having something". Without names we are having hate propaganda.--Rjecina (talk) 04:26, 14 September 2008 (UTC)

OK, I'm waiting for some editor out there to say "vlah" is a racist term that describes Serbs and for that editors to bring up some evidence.Mike Babic (talk) 04:38, 14 September 2008 (UTC)

Well Mike, this is really ridiculous Serbian POV that Croatian historians were using Vlachs as a racist term for Serbs. Historical sources had used Vlachs for Vlachs so Cro historians used it in the same manner. Why do you re-open this funny question again? We have already discussed it here. Is it because the talk page was archieved? Can we expect that all discussions started by you in the past and saved in the archives occurr here again, so you can have your propagandistic forum on this talk page? Zenanarh (talk) 08:48, 15 September 2008 (UTC)

Is it so hard for someone to actually provide a source for something? I mean, does everything have to be "I heard", "I read somewhere", "I think". In fact, is there a point to this section at all? Is there something you want in the article, Mike? Otherwise, I'm just going to archive it and remind everyone to read WP:TALK. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 17:39, 15 September 2008 (UTC)

Serbian coat of arms

As an aside, why have the Serbian coat of arms on top? The Croats and the Serbs articles both have images up top and symbols elsewhere. It seems inconsistent. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 17:37, 15 September 2008 (UTC)

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