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A request for arbitration is the last step of dispute resolution for conduct disputes on Misplaced Pages. The Arbitration Committee considers requests to open new cases and review previous decisions. The entire process is governed by the arbitration policy. For information about requesting arbitration, and how cases are accepted and dealt with, please see guide to arbitration.

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Current requests

Request for clarification: Paranormal

Users involved

• User:Shoemaker's Holiday (requester)
• User:Martinphi
• User:ScienceApologist

Both have been notified on their talk pages.

Statement by Shoemaker's Holiday

Basically, I saw (on WP:FTN) that Finding of Fact 11 of this case, "In addition to mainstream science which generally ignores or does not consider the paranormal worthy of investigation, there is a scientific discipline of parapsychology which studies psychic phenomena in a serious scientific way...", a content decision, is being used to state that parapsychology must always be treated as a science . That is an explicit, disputed content ruling, and one not supported by most non-parapsychological sources. I think that the first sentence should be vacated.

Basically, this is a milder equivalent of the Arbcom saying that Creationism or Intelligent design must be considered science, because a few professors, such as Michael Behe, support them, as far as I can tell. Yes, a few researches have been done, but they do not have the respect of the scientific community. Here, for instance, is the journal Nature's report on the closing of a parapsychological lab (you can only read the opening, but it'll give you the idea of the tone. Parapsychological "research" is almost entirely published in dedicated journals. Shoemaker's Holiday (talk) 23:01, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

To Newyorkbrad: Can that be made explicit, then? Because as it stands, that is not clear. Shoemaker's Holiday (talk) 23:13, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

Statement by Martinphi

It was not that content should be a certain way, but that content should not be a certain way: that the wording should not imply that if X is a scientist then ipso facto X thinks psychic experiments are no good . Further, the implication was that if a person is a parapsychologist, then ipso facto that person is not part of the scientific community. That's what the wording said, and that's what I used the ArbCom for in that case. I shouldn't have even needed the ArbCom, really, but I think the ArbCom was very clear on this. I don't think it was a content decision. Rather it was a decision that parapsychology cannot be dismissed as pseudoscience a priori, nor scientists within the field as outside the halls of science merely because they are in that field. Nor can sources within the field be dismissed as unreliable merely because they are in that field. If you call that content, yeah, but no more so than other decisions of the ArbCom.

Any clarification, were any needed, should involve Bauder and the other Arbs on that case. We went into great detail about the status of parapsychology at the time. Please note that the major skeptics such as James Randi say parapsychology is a science.

I think the purpose of the decision was to say that one should not edit out of an a priori dismissal. That is where editors were coming from in editing the articles before the ArbCom, and that is what the ArbCom meant to damp down. FYI, the Parapsychology article itself is largely based on an article in Nature. We also discussed with the ArbCom the difference between the scientific core of parapsychology and the outlying pseudoscientists who claim the name.

Nature also once published an article on a parapsychologist's book called "A book for burning?", and the author later stated "Sheldrake's is not a scientific theory. Sheldrake is putting forward magic instead of science, and that can be condemned, in exactly the language that the Pope used to condemn Galileo, and for the same reasons: it is heresy." ——Martin ☎ Ψ Φ—— 23:33, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

Finding 3:

Yes, NYB I interpret that to be the ArbCom saying (overall in the decision): don't dismiss it, but don't eliminate criticism either. Is that a fair interpretation? I don't see the tension in the Cake finding, though. Can you make that clearer? I think the title says it- there are different aspects:

1. mainstream science which generally ignores or does not consider the paranormal worthy of investigation

2. there is a scientific discipline of parapsychology which studies psychic phenomena in a serious scientific way

3. popular culture concepts which have a following either in historical or contemporary popular culture, but are not taken seriously or investigated even by parapsychology.

4. A fourth phenomenon is skeptical groups and individuals devoted to debunking.

This is, in fact, a direct outcome of our discussions with the ArbCom.

If you add in finding 3, I interpret it to mean:

Parapsychology engages in scientific research (is a science) but is also very controversial. I interpret this to be broader than stated, it's controversial in many ways, and criticized on many points. So don't eliminate criticism just because the scientific field which covers the subject has a consensus that psi phenomena exist.

And come on, NYB: a mere summary of the parties positions? No, it can't be that, as it is a finding of fact. That is a really novel way of interpreting a finding of fact, and indicates there is something of which I'm unaware. Are findings of fact often summaries of what one side of the dispute thinks, without including the other side, and not qualified to make it clear that this is a finding of fact about what the parties believe? ——Martin ☎ Ψ Φ—— 23:59, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

I take it from Fred Bauder's statement below that my deductions are correct: the Three layer cake with frosting finding is not merely a statement of what the parties believe. It is a statement of the "objective situation."

and

Three layer cake with frosting is not intended to determine what content to put in an article, that is, to resolve content disputes. It is merely a statement of the objective situation which undergirds the process by which the actual content of articles are written.

The reason for such a finding would be to lay the basis for the rest of the ArbCom. It is also meant to be used by editors as a groundwork of fact for building articles, but it is not meant to be interpreted to any great degree beyond what it specifically says.

To the extent that it forms a framework, it does have some bearing on the content of articles, since the objective situation always has a bearing on content.

I interpret it this way because if findings of fact and principle have no bearing on the way in which we edit articles, then the entire ArbCom on the Paranormal said nothing, as it is all Principles and Findings of Fact, nothing else. If the ArbCom on the paranormal is relevant at all, it seems to me that it is relevant in the way I have laid out here. Findings 3 and 11 were relevant in the instance where I used 11 (either would have sufficed).

As a general rule, there are many permutations of content which could be in an article, but they should not conflict with the ArbCom's principles and findings of fact. This is how ArbComs, in my experience, are always interpreted.

Please correct me if I am wrong. ——Martin ☎ Ψ Φ—— 02:51, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

Statement by Nealparr

Regarding the article that Shoemaker referenced in Nature reporting on the closing of a parapsychological lab, it's interesting that he used it because that article actually covers three different views on parapsychology in much the same way that Fred mentioned below when he said "Our articles can legitimately contain all four points of view with appropriate sourcing and handling of each." The author of the article mentions three different views: 1) The view of Chris French, a skeptic and anomalistic psychologist, that such work is worth pursuing, 2) The view of Robert Park, a physicist at Princeton, that such work is "unscientific", and 3) The view of William Happer, another physicist at Princeton, (described as the "middle ground"), that it's within science but a waste of time. The full-text I posted here (though technically I probably wasn't supposed to). This is directly a "viewpoint" question, and no better article demonstrates this than the one Shoemaker referenced because that article, in the respected Nature, treats it as a question rather than an answer, and again presents three different views on the matter. The question, quoted from the article, is: "But the closure highlights a long-running question: how permissive should science be of research that doesn't fit a standard theoretical framework, if the methods used are scientific?" The question both legitimizes the methods as scientific, even as it's questioning the research, but note it posed as a question rather than answer.

On a side-note, I never saw the ArbCom ruling as a definitive directive on content either. It always read as principles to consider. If you read the actual parapsychology article (at least last I checked), it does a good job of presenting all the various views on the topic. Probably not perfect, but definitely not a result of a definitive directive from the ArbCom to write the article a certain way. Several of us bumped heads in writing that article and taking it to FA status, and I don't think the ArbCom ruling had much to do with the final result. Rather it was following the sources. --Nealparr 06:04, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

Statement by MastCell

Pursuant to this case, the authority of ArbCom has been used as a bludgeon in content disputes (other examples exist, but I'm too lazy to dig them up at present). It would be great if that could stop. A simple reaffirmation that ArbCom does not settle content disputes, and an injunction to sort out these issues through the usual process without recourse to name-dropping, would be enough. MastCell  07:13, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

Statement by Ludwigs2 (uninvolved; commentary)

The root of this problem - and related problems in other fringe-type articles - is that it effectively boils down to efforts by[REDACTED] editors (on all sides) to legislate who can and cannot be considered a scientist. This is not something the 'scientific community' (to the extent that such a thing even exists; that's really a mindless abstraction of a much more complex social structure) ever does on its own, and I'm not sure why it has become such an issue on Misplaced Pages. Individual scientists may indulge in disparaging criticism of others, yes, and there are practical barriers to membership (academic degrees, access to research funding and equipment, membership in academic associations, etc.) but as a whole scientists accept and reject other scientists and their work mainly on the work's functional and pragmatic merits. if some group of parapsychologists meet basic membership requirements and follows reasonable and rigorous methodological practices, no academic scientist could meaningfully say that these parapsychologists were not scientists or that they were not engaged in scientific research. they might call them idiots, and might suggest that they are wasting time, money, and careers on vapid pusuits, but the fact is that one can do good research on stupid topics, so long as one is willing to admit when it fails; standing as a scientist is based on the quality of the research. Believe me, if these parapsychologists somehow managed to produce some methodologically sound, unambiguous, reproducible result, there isn't a scientist in the world who wouldn't hail them as geniuses; their marginal state is due to the fact that they can't produce such results, and has little if nothing to do with the topic they study.

frankly, it's not our place to try to determine what is and isn't (or who is and isn't) scientific. if there's a group of people who want to say they form "a scientific discipline of parapsychology which studies psychic phenomena in a serious scientific way", then that's ok. We should report that, along with reporting their successes, failures, and any criticisms they've generated. --Ludwigs2 18:53, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

Clerk Notes

Arbitrator Comments

• I read the "three layer cake with frosting" finding as a statement or summary of background information or the parties' positions rather than anything more. There is also some tension between the sentences of the quoted "three layer cake with frosting" finding, as well as between this finding and finding 3 in the same case, which states that "parapsychology has an ambiguous status, engaging in scientific research, but strongly criticized for lack of rigor." I do not believe that any of these observations were intended to control the outcome of any content disputes. Newyorkbrad (talk) 23:06, 3 October 2008 (UTC) Addendum and response to Martinphi By "the parties" I should have been more clear that I mean parties to the overall (on-wiki and real-world) debate surrounding these issues, not just the parties to the arbitration case. I see that Fred Bauder has commented immediately below; he wrote the decision, as I'm sure you recall, so his comments are probably the most reliable guide to what it was intended to mean. Newyorkbrad (talk) 19:10, 4 October 2008 (UTC)
  • We do not determine content disputes. Three layer cake with frosting is simply a restatement of the objective situation: the attitude of the mainstream scientific community; the small faction of the scientific community that attempts to study parapsychology using scientific methods; parapsychology as popular culture; and skeptics. Our articles can legitimately contain all four points of view with appropriate sourcing and handling of each. Fred Talk 01:37, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

• Comment The intent of most ArbCom cases is to assist in settling content disputes that are not being resolved because user conduct issues make Misplaced Pages's usual dispute resolution processes not work. Frequently, ArbCom has to examine the underlying content dispute to understand why articles on a particular topic have ongoing content disputes. In some of these cases, the Committee makes broad observations in our finding of fact that explain the nature of the dispute, and recognize that more content disputes are likely to occur due to underlying issues that are beyond the control of Misplaced Pages to solve. Articles related ethnic conflicts and articles on pseudoscience (or fringe science) are examples of two topics with ongoing disputes that are not going to solved in short order by following the usual Misplaced Pages dispute resolution process.

• In these instances, our ruling does not intend to set in stone any particular set of content facts, but instead the Committee offers a reasonable interpretation of how the issue can be framed based on core Misplaced Pages polices, in particular Neutral point of view. In these cases, our rulings should be seen as a starting place for sorting out ongoing content issues. It is not our intension for our ruling to mandate a particular point of view be included, or establish the weight that should be given to a point of view. Rather, it is a good faith attempt by Wikipedian's that are knowledgeable about content policy to frame the issues in a way that works with the particular articles in question in the particular dispute that we are addressing. Frequently, but not always, the decision can be reasonable way to settle similar content disputes. In future disputes, uninvolved experienced users might be aided in resolving the dispute by reviewing previous case rulings since they may explain the underlaying dispute. But, our past rulings should not replace new good faith attempts by uninvolved users to sort out a new disputes in different ways. And new or ongoing problematic user conduct that were not resolved in a previous case can addressed through the normal dispute processes or through case sanctions (if appropriate).

• Specific to this case: The ruling frames the underlying issue (the vastly different views of different groups of people on the topic.) in a manner that is compatible with writing an article on the topic using Misplaced Pages's core policies as a guide. It remains up to editors to apply the policies to the particular content of a particular article. In this instance, since the involved users have given their input on the topic many times before, it might be helpful for them to step back and let other users give their views. FloNight♥♥♥ 14:17, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

Request for clarification: amendment of Misplaced Pages:Arbitration policy

List of any users involved or directly affected, and confirmation that all are aware of the request:

• This request is of relevance to every editor.

Statement by Happy-melon

The recent concerns over the provisions of, and adherence to, the Arbitration Policy, discussed at length in the recent Request for Comment, has posed significant questions over the how the Policy and Committee have functioned and how they could be improved. Resolution of what appear to be substantive issues in some cases has been hampered by confusion over how, if at all, the Arbitration Policy can be modified or amended. The only ArbCom statement on the matter of which I am aware is from March 2005, by then-Committee member Grunt, to indicate that "Jimbo Wales has also suggested that Arbitraton Policy is not open to amendment by the community". No evidence is given to support this statement, which nonetheless leaves it open to question exactly who is eligible to amend the policy, and by what method. This unresolved issue had not been a problem for most of the intervening three and a half years because there had been no serious consideration of amendments to the policy. Such modification has now been suggested and appears to have a measure of community support thereto, so it is now necessary to resolve the issue of how modifications to the policy should be enacted. The clarification I am requesting from the Committee, therefore, is an official answer to the question "to what extent, and subject to what restrictions, is the Arbitration policy open to amendment or modification by the community; and by what method should such changes be enacted?". Happy‑melon 16:09, 28 September 2008 (UTC)

Statement by Barberio

I think it may be unwise to leave the question of "how may the Arbitration Committee's ruling policy" be amended in the hands of the Arbitration Committee it's self. --Barberio (talk) 18:24, 28 September 2008 (UTC)

To clarify my point, the Arbitration Committee certainly have input to the process, and provide a point of view and knowledge of the system that others might not have. And as such they were involved in the current process being used to put up policy, having been invited to take part in the RfC. But it would not be healthy for them to be the sole owners of the Arbitration Policy. --Barberio (talk) 21:44, 28 September 2008 (UTC)

Note, if the Arbitration Committee decided to alter Arbitration Policy by themselves to add some of the suggested policy changes to it, then I wouldn't object to removing them from the vote. --Barberio (talk) 22:30, 28 September 2008 (UTC)

Statement by Carcharoth

The first part of the statement is largely a repost of what I posted at the RfC here. The second and third parts are new comments and updates.

(1) Changes to Arbitration policy

repost from 1 July 2008

(2) Changes made since July 2008

• (a) The "citation needed" bit (the whole sentence) got removed on 10 July 2008 with this edit. It has not been re-added since (nearly three months). What this means is unclear.
• (b) A formal change was made to the arbitration policy with this edit (29 July 2008). The diff quoted in support of that (it's in the edit summary of one of the intermediate revisions in the diff I provided) is here. I think the full discussion being referred to is the one here.

(3) Suggestions going forward

I think the history given above, and the examples of two changes made (one by an uncontested edit, and the other by a formal discussion) may help indicate what could be done here to clarify this matter, or at least provide the arbitrators with concrete examples to discuss. Responding to Barberio, I think working with the Arbitration Committee over how the policy can be amended or changed would be better than taking it out of their hands entirely - they would, after all, be among those likely to be affected by any changes, and are the one that would have to live and work with any changes.

- Carcharoth (talk) 20:40, 28 September 2008 (UTC)

Some further comments:

• About advertising: during the RfC and proposals process, advertising was sufficient to draw a large number of people. It should be possible to list the means of advertising used (it is important to keep a record of where the RfC was advertised - is such a record available?) and to do a brief analysis of the "hundreds" of people responding to see if you obtained a balanced cross-section of the community. As an aside, more advertising should have been done on the policy page and it's talk page - I see one note was left there on 10 August 2008. I do think that incorporating votes on such changes into the ArbCom elections is a logical step, and would expose the proposed changes to a large audience and potential mandate, but it should be done with care and not made too complicated.
• Whether an edit sticks. Brad (over at the election policy change subpage) said: "The designation that the Arbitration Policy is not subject to editing like other policies means that any editor should not simply click the "edit this page" button and change the policy, and assume if the edit sticks, then the policy has been changed." I'd like to point out again that this is exactly what appears to have happened:

• The claim that the policy is not subject to amendment by the community was added on 29 March 2005 (User:Grunt).
• The claim was tagged with "citation need" in 20 November 2007 (User:Chillum).
• The tag remained for just under 8 months until it and the associated sentence were removed on 10 July 2008 (User:Karibou).
• In summary, the sentence in question ("Jimbo Wales has also suggested that the policy is not subject to amendment by the community") appeared in March 2005, was formally contested with a 'citation needed' tag in November 2007 (a year and eight months later), and was removed in July 2008 (a further eight months later).

So how does this tally with Brad's comment that people should not assume that because the edits have stuck, that the policy has been changed? Is there some master document somewhere that is the real policy? My view is that those with an interest in the policy should have it watchlisted and should contest such changes as needed. Sometimes an edit going uncontested does speak volumes, but there is no way of knowing how many people (including arbitrators) silently reviewed the edit and decided not to revert the citation needed tag or the eventual removal in July 2008. Does anyone contest the removal of that sentence? Just letting an edit go uncontested and then (possibly) objecting to the change months later, while it may be necessary, does seem to indicate that the policy is not as closely watched as might be thought. Carcharoth (talk) 08:01, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

Statement by Martinphi

I didn't know that this RfC could actually change policy. RfCs are for venting, or for taking to ArbCom. It was not made clear at the start of the RfC that it would lead to a vote on proposals which would then automatically become policy. Perhaps the RfC was announced -I think it may have been- the same way as the recent anouncment of possible changes to the RfA process. But if it was, people don't take RfCs seriously, and no mention was made specifically at the start of the RfC that the results of the RfC would be made policy. It said "This RFC will provide an opportunity for the Community to interact in a central discussion, to help shape the future of the Committee, and for how it would and could best serve the Misplaced Pages community." No mention of the way that "help" would be provided. The RfC was not well attended for a change of this magnitude. I think this process should start over with a much clearer statement, if indeed it is the community prerogative to change ArbCom policy, which it might be. One way or the other, there was not sufficient publicity that a tiny clique of editors was proposing policy. Nor was there warning that their proposals -which the wider community did not participate in- would be presented to the wider community without the community being invited to change the proposals (if indeed it can be said to have now been presented to the wider community). It looks to me that fewer than a hundred people participated. In short, this is far from a decent way of making policy changes. It was not properly done and should be called off and redone. ——Martin ☎ Ψ Φ—— 22:33, 28 September 2008 (UTC)

Reply to Shoemaker below:

Two things: first, it has to look like more than an RfC for venting about the ArbCom- In fact, don't even call it an RfC, that means "just venting." Call it "Community forum to formulate changes to ArbCom policy" or something. Second, advertise it well- I just talked to another regular editor, and asked if they'd even known about it. They didn't. The basic reason people didn't know what was going on is that it was an RfC, which means "lots of noise and nothing happens." You have noted this yourself, if I recall, as have many others. There was no indication in the Nutshell or near the top of the page that this would actually change policy, nor that policy would be voted on. That's what seems to have happened. ——Martin ☎ Ψ Φ—— 01:35, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

Statement by User:Shoemaker's Holiday

The RFC had the input of hundreds of users. I would like to know what level of interaction Martinphi considers necessary to change policy? Shoemaker's Holiday (talk) 23:13, 28 September 2008 (UTC)

Unusually-Short Statement by Alecmconroy

• As a rule, Misplaced Pages's policies are decided by consensus.
• While the board (and its representatives) may supersede consensus through explicit declaration, there's no evidence they have chosen to do so in this case.
• Arbcom cannot alter policy in general, and Arbcom deciding Arbcom policy would be particularly naughty.
• But, the Arbs are some of our most respected members, so we definitely want their opinions, albeit in a non-official capacity.
• And, the Arbs seem to understand that and have been offering their personal opinions-- so Huzzahs all round! :)

--Alecmconroy (talk) 17:28, 30 September 2008 (UTC)

Response to Fred:

The wiki process works for all our other policies, it will work fine for our arbcom policies too. As a general rule, we generate consensus directly-- when a content dispute crops up, we generate consensus-- we don't vote to elect a subset of the editors who then vote amongst themselves and thereby decide how to edit an article.

The even bigger problem with electing arbs based on their policy views is that (officially) arbs don't pick the policies. The wiki-process, through consensus, decides the policies.

So electing an arb based on their preferred policies is a little like hiring a baseball umpire based on his opinion of the capital gains tax. Sure you can use that criterion if you want to. But at the end of the day, a baseball umpire still doesn't get to dictate the capital gains tax rate. So too is it with arbcom and policies.

Now, if you believe Arbcom should just sit down and write out our policies for us then that's one thing.

But for the rest of us, if you believe that Arbitration is a step in dispute resolution, but not a step in policy formation-- then you have a quandary. Electing arbs who share your point of view won't result in generating a policy-- because any arbs who share your point of view will, ipso facto, decline to dictate policies. --Alecmconroy (talk) 02:54, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

Statement by Fred Bauder

The procedures followed by the arbitration committee were initially established by the arbitration committee itself. As the work has progressed and experience was obtained there were modifications and refinements. My thought is that those who favor change in arbitration policy should elect arbitrators who advocate the changes they favor. Or, rather than concentrate on details, elect users you trust. Fred Talk 01:46, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

Statement by SirFozzie

The problem with that three years is an excessively long time, so long that individual arbitrators who were generally lauded for their view, burnt out, and did silly things like suggesting that articles on living people be redirected to Clown. SirFozzie (talk) 02:09, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

Statement by other user

Clerk notes

Arbitrator views and discussion

• For my personal view on this, please see Misplaced Pages talk:Arbitration_Committee Elections December 2008/Policy Changes#A view from Newyorkbrad. Newyorkbrad (talk) 23:11, 28 September 2008 (UTC)
• My comment is in the Misplaced Pages talk:Arbitration_Committee Elections December 2008/Policy Changes#A view from Newyorkbrad thread. FloNight♥♥♥ 14:57, 30 September 2008 (UTC)
• Not intending to comment on the substance of proposed changes but on the status of the page. It is a difficult question whether the Arbitration policy constitutes the standing policy of the Arbitration committee (in which case only arbitrators can make substantive changes), or whether it constitutes a special policy governing and controlling the Arbitration committee (in which case there is some community input in setting it). In reality and in history it is an uncomfortable mixture of the two, which has not caused a problem in the past because the committee and the community have largely been in step on the major issues. A long term project might be to identify which sections are the 'standing orders' of the committee which we can change to help us work better, and which are the 'constitution' which needs outside input and oversight. Sam Blacketer (talk) 09:34, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

Request for clarification : Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Badlydrawnjeff

List of any users involved or directly affected, and confirmation that all are aware of the request:

• EconomicsGuy II (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) (initiator)

Statement by EconomicsGuy II

To help clarify to what degree the ruling applies to articles submitted to Articles for Deletion I'm filing this request for clarification.

The ruling in the Badlydrawnjeff case says:

• (Principle 4) Any administrator, acting on their own judgment, may delete an article that is substantially a biography of a living person if they believe that it (and every previous version of it) significantly violates any aspect of the relevant policy. This deletion may be contested via the usual means; however, the article must not be restored, whether through undeletion or otherwise, without an actual consensus to do so. The burden of proof is on those who wish to retain the article to demonstrate that it is compliant with every aspect of the policy.

I would like the arbitrators to clarify if this means that:

• Administrators are not required to delete such articles but are merely entitled to do so even when closing Articles for Deletion debates
• Articles that would otherwise qualify for speedy deletion per this principle may be submitted to Articles for Deletion instead. Specifically, if an article is submitted to Articles for Deletion before an administrator spotted it and invoked the ruling the ruling no longer applies but is superceded by deletion policy?
• Consensus on Articles for Deletion is enough to satisfy the consensus requirement and effectively change the burden of proof back to the party concerned about BLP violations since the burden of proof on Articles for Deletion is on the person wishing to have the article deleted

The ruling also says:

• (Principle 3) In cases where the appropriateness of material regarding a living person is questioned, the rule of thumb should be "do no harm." In practice, this means that such material should be removed until a decision to include it is reached, rather than being included until a decision to remove it is reached.

I would like the arbitrators to clarify if this means that:

• Material removed even by non-administrators in good standing may be reincluded by anyone, specifically non-administrators, as long as this is done per consensus on Articles for Deletion even before the debate has been closed
• The burden of proof when such an article is submitted to review on Articles for Deletion is on the person making the deletion rather than the person who reincludes the disputed material thus effectively changing the burden of proof back despite Principle 4 as cited above.

Thanks.

• The article that prompted this is Thomas Muthee but I've seen this happen before. To JzG: I'm not asking for that. Please re-read what I said. I'm asking to what degree the arbitrators believe that normal deletion process can be applied to BLPs that happen to end up at AfD rather than be speedy deleted per the ruling. If deletion policy takes precedence over the ruling then the ruling can be gamed by taking the article to AfD where the requirements for consensus are less strict because the burden of proof has then been reversed back. I find that very problematic because according to the ruling the burden of proof is on the party that wants the article kept. Are you telling me that "I see no BLP problems" is a sufficient argument to establish such a consensus? If so I think I've overestimated the usefulness of this ruling. EconomicsGuy (talk) 09:01, 23 September 2008 (UTC)

• Thanks Kirill and Flonight. That clarified it for me. I was not aware of the Footnoted quotes ruling. EconomicsGuy (talk) 13:11, 23 September 2008 (UTC)

• One more question or actually two questions. Per your responses below do you believe that such AfDs should be closed early by non-administrators and would you please explain how this edit history is possible if administrators are expected to keep disputed material out of BLPs and sanction those who keep reinserting it. It seems to me that the ruling is a lot of words that aren't being enforced. EconomicsGuy (talk) 07:01, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

Statement by JzG

I don't see any ambiguity here. The principle does not limit the venues at which a deletion may be made, the presumption is always that contentious material be excluded until there is clear consensus to include (that burden of proof exists for all disputed content, anything else would be a POV-pusher's charter). The only unclear thing here is that the requester seems to be asking for a reversal of the normal burden of proof at DRV, solely for BLPs, which seems perverse to me - contentious BLPs should be more likely to be undeleted? Why would we do that?

I have no idea which article prompted this question, it might be helpful to know which one. Guy (Help!) 08:09, 23 September 2008 (UTC)

Statement by User:Scott MacDonald

The burden of proof when such an article is submitted to review on Articles for Deletion is on the person making the deletion rather than the person who reincludes the disputed material thus effectively changing the burden of proof back despite Principle 4 as cited above.

Em? No. Need we say more?--Scott MacDonald (talk) 08:15, 23 September 2008 (UTC)

Clerk notes

Arbitrator views and discussion

• Portions of the Badlydrawnjeff ruling have been superseded by the broader enforcement provisions of the Footnoted quotes ruling. Absent an unambiguous, active community consensus to restore disputed BLP material (as provided for in the latter decision), administrators are authorized and expected to ensure that it remains removed, regardless of whether the article happens to be undergoing AFD. Kirill 09:48, 23 September 2008 (UTC)
• I agree with Kirill that the BLP policy applies on every page in Misplaced Pages-English including articles up for Afd and where the deletion discussion is happening. The intent of the BLP policy is to modify the application of every policy on Misplaced Pages as it relates to content about living people. In the case of Afds, this change means that the past practice of keeping content on site if there is not consensus to delete is altered. In the short term, deletion (or blanking) is needed in some instances for articles about notable people as the content is researched for accuracy or reliable sources are found. For articles about living people the past default practice of "Keep" for notable people does not work unless the content is changed so it complies with our core polices and the BLP policy. This applies during the deletion discussion if an user raises concerns about the content and cites the BLP policy or the Footnted quotes case ruling. I hope that helps. FloNight♥♥♥ 10:59, 23 September 2008 (UTC)

• Per Kirill and FloNight. As a side note, the mentality of dealing with BLP articles the way tabloids do has to change. That is not really what Misplaced Pages, an encyclopedia, is about or should encourage. -- fayssal - wiki up 03:10, 25 September 2008 (UTC)

• Misplaced Pages arbitration