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	Messianic Judaism has been listed as one of the Philosophy and religion good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do so. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can reassess it.
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New Intro

Recommend the following intro -- it's more clear and specific:

Messianic Judaism is a Christian movement that emphasizes the Jewish roots of the Christian religion. Accordingly they continue many Jewish religious and cultural practices, use Jewish names and expressions, and call Jesus by the more Hebraic form of the name -- Yeshua.

The movement is accepted by Christian denominations, and often holds services in Christian churches on Friday nights or Saturday mornings. Larger Messianic congregations build their own synagogues.

Although many members of the movement are halakhically Jewish, the various streams of Judaism are unanimous in their rejection of MJ as a form of Judaism.

As of 1993 there were 160,000 adherents of Messianic Judaism in the United States and 350,000 worldwide. As of 2003, there were at least 150 Messianic synagogues in the U.S. and over 400 worldwide. By 2008, the number of Messianics in the United States was around a quarter million. The number of Messianic Jews in Israel is reported to be anywhere between 6,000 and 15,000 members.

What was wrong or lacking in the previous intro that warrants the necessity for a new one? This new wording almost smacks of a POV disclaimer. Simply posting a source's defintion for MJ that favors one viewpoint that it is Christian funded is totally ignorant of the fact that much of the MJ I am familiar with is serious NOT funded by any Christian organizations. In fact, J4J may be Christian funded, but certain not all of Messianic Judaism which could only be the acceptable criteria for inclusion of such a ridiculous statement, no matter how sourced. inigmatus (talk) 19:43, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

Good Article Nomination

Transcluded from Talk:Messianic_Judaism/GA1

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Messianic Judaism/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

I believe this article should receive Good Article status. It has taken over three years to get it to where it is now, and most disputes seem to be resolved in its presentation. inigmatus (talk) 14:48, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

GA review (see here for criteria)

1. It is reasonably well written.

   a (prose): b (MoS):

   Fixed a nested quotes issue. The Law and Grace section seems to use weasel words. Suggest that be fixed, too.

2. It is factually accurate and verifiable.

   a (references): b (citations to reliable sources): c (OR):

   Some sections need better citations--e.g., scriptural commentary, eschatology

3. It is broad in its coverage.

   a (major aspects): b (focused):

   Several things seem redundant or handled in two places, e.g, People of God and Messianic Jewish Conversion

4. It follows the neutral point of view policy.

   Fair representation without bias:

   It is remarkable, and a credit to the editors, that such a controversial topic is presented so amicably.

5. It is stable.

   No edit wars etc.:

   Still seems to be fairly actively edited.

6. It is illustrated by images, where possible and appropriate.

   a (images are tagged and non-free images have fair use rationales): b (appropriate use with suitable captions):

   There is room for another image or two in an article of this size.

7. Overall:

   Pass/Fail:

   Despite the issues, I call this a pass. It's GA, but needs work for FA. Jclemens (talk) 18:16, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

Sources, and such

I'm not married to the version that's there -- but it's more specific than the one J is trying to put in. MJs do not just think they are Jewish, but many of them actually are (even though their religion is Christian). Also, it is not just many Christians who accept them, but there aren't any that reject them on doctrinal grounds (although some "Compound Unity" MJs SHOULD be rejected by Christians as a heresy). Also, they aren't just funded by Christians, but actually worship in their churches unless they are large enough to fund their own building. SkyWriter (Tim) (talk) 18:42, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

I know of a Church that meets in a synagogue, and a synagogue that meets in a church. This doesn't mean one is funded by the other. Furthermore stating that Messianic Judaism is a Christian funded organization (what organization? we're the most splintered group of people I know!) is akin to the former debates of adding a disclaimer. Is it me, or is saying "Messianic Judaism is a Christian funded organized religion" a thinly veiled POV disclaimer? I can find sources for both yes and no on this question, thus it is better to be left out of the intro and hashed in the appropriate subsections - as was originally designed to help keep this article from reverting to an edit war. I am a Messianic Jew. I have many many Messianic Jewish friends that will readily attest to our LACK of support by the Christian Church. Do you want examples? I've got tons. The only congregations getting support from churches are those that aren't keeping Torah, and most likely could fit into the category of a Christian church meeting on Saturday - perhaps this better describes J4J than orthodox Torah observant Messianic Judaism. If we were so "funded" by Christians as you claim, then tell me why Messianic Jewish synagogues are a rareity? My rabbi and our congregation would LOVE to get our hands on just a sliver of the "millions" being spent by Christians to fund the movement to build OUR synagogue. As if. Sorry for my rant, but I find this idea of being funded by Christian churches not only deeply inaccurate by deeply offensive as well.inigmatus (talk) 19:30, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

You're right. I don't know who inserted that line - it wasn't there during all of the consensus-building between the various users working diligently for NPOV during the last year. Sorry it wasn't noticed. Best, A Sniper (talk) 20:00, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

I now see that Jayjg mentioned that it was from a source. If so, then at the least it should be noted that way in the text, not just the reference. Blah blah has referred to MJ as ".....". A Sniper (talk) 20:04, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

A quote like that would best be in a subsection, or else to maintain POV balance the intro would have to have a counter-source also so quoted - and I don't want to bloat the intro since it's already pretty concise and agreed to consensus without modification - and passed when it was considered for Good Article. It has stood the test of time and consensus, and I see no reason to modify a Good Article intro, as the new additions such as that one proposed, would unnecessarily skew the POV of it. In fact the only reason I could see for including that new phraseology would be to simply introduce yet another attempt at a "Christian" disclaimer phrase for the article, which has been debunked before since the consensus was no disclaimer in favor of removing "other Jewish denominations." Unless other parties want "other" Jewish denominations included in the intro, I suggest keeping the intro as-is since that was the compromise. inigmatus (talk) 20:11, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

Also -- on consensus -- J just reverted a consensus version. At least today, two editors created the version that one editor reverted. The consensus -- at least at present -- is in favor of mine and Lisa's SkyWriter (Tim) (talk) 18:44, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

Great points, but you didn't actually provide any sources for them, and you removed other material that was sourced. The version of the lede that currently exists was worked out via painful consensus that lasted many months, not just a complete re-write with one editor's quick modifications. Why not propose a new version here, and we'll work on it together? Jayjg 18:45, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

You've seen my proposed version, and reverted it. I'd like to include Lisa's clarifications as well. SkyWriter (Tim) (talk) 18:47, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

Please bring your version here so we can discuss it. As a simple example of issues with it, the entire second paragraph:

The movement is accepted by Christian denominations, and often holds services in Christian churches on Friday nights or Saturday mornings. Larger Messianic congregations build their own synagogues.

is unsourced. Jayjg 18:56, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

Let me see if I understand you correctly -- Christians fund them but do not accept them? In any case, I can find sources for that paragraph, and will take the time to do so if you are open to improving the header. If you aren't, there's not much point. Please state what you will include with sourcing, and I'll find sourcing. Anything you won't include with sourcing, I won't bother. Fair? SkyWriter (Tim) (talk) 19:28, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

Perhaps to save you some trouble: the lede doesn't say anywhere that "Christians do not accept" MJs. The lede clearly states that some Christians consider MJs to be Christians, and this is sourced. A Sniper (talk) 19:35, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

The lead actually says -- "Many Christians consider Messianic Judaism to be a form of Christianity." Many is an unnecessary weasel word, and so is form of. Messianic Judaism is a Christian movement, much as Charismatics are. A movement crosses denominational lines, and so Messianics worship in many different denomination buildings until they are large enough to fund their own building. SkyWriter (Tim) (talk) 20:07, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

Your point being taken, regardless of what you've described as weasel words, the point of the line is that a percentage of representatives of Christian denominations consider MJ to be Christian, whether a sect, denomination or line-blurring group. This was a line that was agreed upon after much wrangling by all camps - please check the history of the article, as well as this very talk page - the MJs didn't see a problem with the line per se and the Jewish editors supported its inclusion as it further identified the group as being Christian. A Sniper (talk) 20:42, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

Specifically WHICH Christian groups did you source as NOT accepting Messianic Judaism as a Christian movement? The "many" involves an exception that is blatantly missing from the article. At least document the exception. If not, then remove the weasel word. That's fair, isn't it? SkyWriter (Tim) (talk) 20:47, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

I would stress that the entire lede was written over a period of time with the assistance of a group of editors, at least two of whom identified as being from the MJ community. Through a series of back & forth edits we came to a compromise on issues, all backed by sources. The latest tinkering seems unnecessary and to drift away from the consensus. Best, A Sniper (talk) 19:01, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

Absolutely. I reverted it since it does not meet with consensus, and that intro was stable for a very very very long time with multiple parties on all sides in agreement on it after much debate and compromise. inigmatus (talk) 19:31, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

I'll repeat my offer -- I'll source anything that you'll accept if sourced. I won't bother if there is something other than sourcing as a priority here. If the weasle wording is required by some previous consensus in which one side was demanding the weasle wording, then I won't waste your time, or mine, improving the article. So, please tell me what part of my intro you will not accept if it is sourced, and I'll forget about it. However, if you don't, then per Misplaced Pages standards I'll provide the sources and remove the current weasel wording. It's a fair offer. Just tell me what is prohibited regardless of how well it is sourced, and I'll forget about it. SkyWriter (Tim) (talk) 20:39, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

All editor suggestions and support is encouraged. However, this article has a history including lots of struggles and, after a period of edit warring and problems, consensus among editors (of various backgrounds and mindsets) who remained involved after the dust settled. You can see on this talk page the back & forth involved with rectifying POV. On a personal level I would state that the best way forward is to bring ideas to the talk page - the edit, revert & discuss route will just lead back to here anyway. You're right in figuring that, due to the consensus, particular wording was agreed in exchange for inclusion of other parts - as long as everything was sourced to allow for balance overall. Best, A Sniper (talk) 20:50, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

I repeat my request -- please state which aspects are immune to Misplaced Pages standards and sourcing because of political arangements from previous editors. It's a fair request. I will not push Misplaced Pages standards on the aspects of my intro that you explicitly state are immune. SkyWriter (Tim) (talk) 20:55, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

I'm not sure what the relevance is of your question. All the elements in the consensus lead were sourced, and complied with all Misplaced Pages standards. On the other hand, your changes were unsourced, and did not comply with Misplaced Pages standards. If you would like to propose changes to the lead, then please do so here. Please ensure that your comments explicitly state which parts of the lead you think do not follow Misplaced Pages standards, and why you think they do not. Nothing is "prohibited", so long as all proposals comply with Misplaced Pages standards. Jayjg 03:29, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

And Jayjg, you of all people should realize this article was not designed per standard wikipolicy, or else we'd wikilawyer all day until the admins were involved (which includes you) and at that point there would be no fair representation by any MJ view. This article tends to follow the wikistandard that there are no standards - in that one should edit an article as best possible to reach consensus, not POV. In actuality, this article has only survived without major edit wars due to POV balancing, not NPOV voicing. That is why there are subsections for presenting various viewpoints. The intro needs to stay truly neutral, without POV, even if you can find "neutral" sources. The phrase "is a Christian funded" is totally false, meaning your source is false, not that it's sourced. For consensus sake the intro was just fine without the addition. Please move that "clarification" to the appropriate subsection in the article. Please. inigmatus (talk) 19:58, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

Oddly enough, Harris-Shapiro, the person who literally "wrote the book" on the movement, and one of the most sympathetic ears the movement has had in Judaism, says explicitly that they are "Christian funded"; it's right in the quote included in the reference. Please review WP:V: "The threshold for inclusion in Misplaced Pages is verifiability, not truth—that is, whether readers are able to check that material added to Misplaced Pages has already been published by a reliable source, not whether we think it is true." If you have other similarly reliable sources that say the movement is not Christian funded, please bring them forward. Jayjg 20:22, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

Jayjg - First, it's impossible to absolutely disprove a negative. If anything the onus of proof is on one to prove that "Christian funded" is an accurate statement applicable to the general (and for purpose of consensus I would demanding it be applicable to even the orthodox Torah-observant since in my view those are the only Messianic Jews that can rightfully claim the label). Second, I would like to know what exactly is funded - the missionary activities (like what), the buildings, the Torah scrolls, the Artscroll siddurim, the salaries of rabbis who denounce the Church's way of life and its pagan practices? My "tons" of sources are the clear statements that churches will not financially support the "judaizing" of Christianity:

Christians Should Not Give To Those Teaching The Doctrine Of The Judaizers.

But Gal. 6:6-17, read in context with other verses in the Galatian epistle, suggest that Paul was teaching something else as well. As we will see, these verses, read in context, provide evidence that Paul was teaching that Christians should not give to anyone who was teaching the doctrine of the Judaizers, a doctrine which included the teaching that Christians were under obligation to the law of Moses. Three facts provide evidence of this.

from: http://christianitywithoutcompromise.com/essays/webessay3_galatians_.pdf on page 5.

or

"You cannot give money to help build Satan's kingdom," I explained, "and in doing so, please our Lord God. If the Zionist Jews are doggedly determined to mock and disrespect the truth, why should you, a Christian, help make that come to fruition?"

from: http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/Wolves/scofield.htm

and many others. inigmatus (talk) 20:45, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

Wait, you said you could bring sources stating the opposite, and now you can't? Please don't use your original research based on New Testament verses to "disprove" what reliable sources have said on the matter. Jayjg 21:09, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

Inigmatus, YOu quoted Galatians out of context. Yes, what you said Paul wrote, was actually written. HOWEVER, the Judaizers are not equivalent to Messianic Jews. Messianic Jews consider themselves "completed Jews", as in the Hamaschia (sp) has come, and he was Yeshua (JESUS). The Judaizers, on the other hand, were preying on the new and struggling church in Galtia, telling the new Christians that they had to be Jews first. YOur quote it not in context. Thanks! KoshVorlon > rm -r WP:F.U.R 16:37, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

Many

I've reviewed the history, and I see no support for "many" in the place I made a fact tag. It looks like there was indeed a lot of work back and forth here, there are a lot of citations. One almost implies the "many", and another uses "many" in a different way than is meant in the sentence. My recommendation is to either find an explicit citation of a denomination that officially states Messianic Judaism is NOT Christian, or take out the word "many." I'd be satisfied to stop being a nudge if you two do one of those two things. I don't care which. SkyWriter (Tim) (talk) 21:13, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

All right -- now this is ridiculous. I asked you to cite the exception, or remove the weasel word. Instead you removed my tag. This is stretching good faith. First, you refuse to cite WHO the exception is. Second, you refuse to state WHAT part of my intro will not be accepted regardless of sourcing. Now you won't support EITHER option I gave you when I boiled my objection down to a single word. I think you need to go back and look up the word, "consensus." Completely ignoring any and all requests for reason is not consensus, but rather edit warring. SkyWriter (Tim) (talk) 21:27, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

Again, I have no objection to "many" being in there as long as the exception is cited. That's extremely fair. SkyWriter (Tim) (talk) 21:41, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

Again: where does it say in the lede that some Christians DO NOT consider MJs Christian? The reference is to support that, at the very least, most Christians DO consider MJ Christian. If you can find a reference that ALL Christian denominations consider MJs as Christian, go right ahead and put that in...but it is a tall order. You'd have to find a reference that is all-inclusive. That is why your argument that MOST is a weasel word falls flat. It was a fair way of stating that it is nearly impossible to prove that every, single Christian denomination considers MJ as being within the Christian fold. So, the onus is on you to produce a source that MJs are considered Christian by all of Christendom. A Sniper (talk) 21:52, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

No, it is not -- for the simple reason that this would require explicit statements from every existing denomination and group, which numbers in the tens of thousands. They do not do that even for each other, which is tens of thousands multiplied by tens of thousands. Instead, they state a negative for some groups. Your demand for tens of thousands of explicit statements instead of accepting my request that you state ONE that holds an exception -- is on the face of it absurd. I'm asking for one exception. Just one. It's not a tall order. SkyWriter (Tim) (talk) 21:58, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

If you believe that 'Christians believe that MJs are a form of Christianity', and you don't want to find a source that states that, fine - let's let that stand! I have just edited it so that it reads that 'Christians agree with Jews that MJs are a form of Christianity'. So now everyone agress that MJs are Christian. Phew! Buddu-bum (drum roll, cymbal crash). Best, A Sniper (talk) 22:02, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

Cynicism is unhelpful

Christians do not agree with Jews here. They state a similar conclusion, yes, but they do not do this for the sake of Jews, and they do not care whether they agree or not. As such your cynical edit violates SYNTH. Please remove the cyncism and find a simple exception. Hint: you MAY find something from Reformed (i.e. Calvinistic) groups who object to "Judaizing." I've not seen such a source, but you could possibly find one. I'll even try to look with you. Surely you agree that finding such a source would add some color while supporting the word "Many" in the sentence. This is my final attempt to compromise with you -- and even to HELP you. Please accept it. SkyWriter (Tim) (talk) 22:05, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

This is your issue. You are the one who has a problem with what has stood the test of time - at least by Misplaced Pages standards. It is you who want to state that Christians (not some, not most - just 'Christians') think that MJs are a part of Christianity. I have no problem with that. Whether or not one is trying to appease the other, as it now stands Christians and Jews BOTH believe MJs to be within Christianity. That's cool with me. Best, A Sniper (talk) 22:08, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

Fine -- I'm worn out. SkyWriter (Tim) (talk) 22:10, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

Blessed be the peacemakers ;) A Sniper (talk) 22:12, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

Funny, I'm in that very chapter right now in my third New Testament translation. SkyWriter (Tim) (talk) 22:14, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

That's the way these things work out sometimes. Have a nice Sunday. A Sniper (talk) 23:28, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

Missing the point

I notice that up in the "Sources" section, there's a lot of argument going on about whether MJ is considered a form of Christianity by Christians or not. I think the problem is really one of terminology. Some people read "Christianity" as synonymous with "Christianity and not Judaism". Others read "Christianity" as being consistent with "both Christianity and Judaism".

So what are we saying when we say that "Christians view MJ as a form of Christianity"? Those who see Christianity and Judaism as mutually exclusive will read that as "Christians view MJ as a form of Christianity, and not a form of Judaism". Those who do not can read it as "Christians view MJ as a form of Christianity" without excluding the possibility that they also view it as a form of Judaism.

Obviously, I think they're mutually exclusive. But my view isn't the point here (unfortunately). Still, I think it's incontroverably true that Christians (all of them) would view MJ as a form of Christianity, at least to the extent that they'd view any denomination they don't happen to belong to as being a form of Christianity. Thus Tim's edit is correct. But Ignatius seems to be assuming, ironically enough, the Jewish view as dominant, and is therefore objecting to the statement on the grounds that it implies MJ to be not-Judaism.

I think it's fair to say that:

• Most, if not all Christian groups view MJ as Christian
• Some Christian groups view MJ as Jewish
• All Jewish groups view MJ as Christian and not Jewish

If there are no objections to this, the question would then be how to phrase this in a clearly understandable way. If there are objections... well, I guess I'll see them Thursday night. Chag Sameach to those who are Jewish and non-MJ. -LisaLiel (talk) 20:29, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

This was already taken care of with a 'final' edit (after the back & forth with Tim) to how it reads now: that Christians and Jews consider MJ to be a form of Christianity - Tim did not register a problem with this, and (of course) I certainly like it. Hag Sameach. Best, A Sniper (talk) 20:39, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

New Intro "Christian funded?"

Why modify a GA Consensus-built intro, BEFORE bringing such a change here to the talk page, for an article that is hotly contested as this? Please explain. And please explain why a wiki admin would do this too, knowing full well the history of this article? What was lacking for months on end when the intro stood just fine without dispute? I do not support the current intro as modified, as it is patently false in its generalistic application to anyone claiming to be a Messianic Jew. My shul is certainly not supported by Christians, nor are those of many many others. If you're going to add a "Christian" disclaimer (sourced of course) to the intro, then please modify the phrase "various groups of Judaism to say " all other groups of Judaism..." and Ill happily provide that "source" too. If you want compromise, that's what's been agreed to for months. We remove "all other" you remove "Christian" since both are technically accurate with sources, and both are technically wrong with sources. Please keep the intro as-is. If it's not broke, don't fix it. And Chag Sameach to all. inigmatus (talk) 20:54, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

In all honesty, Inigmatus, I don't know why this edit bothers you. Surely you'll admit that the MJ movement receives funds from Christian organizations, even if individual congregations don't. If MJ is a movement, then it's relevant that the movement is Christian funded. If it isn't a movement, but only a scattered collection of individual congregations, then MJ shouldn't be called a movement, and possibly shouldn't have a Misplaced Pages article at all. Do you see the difference? -LisaLiel (talk) 21:41, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

Inigmatus, to begin with, the version of the intro you keep reverting to isn't the "GA Consensus-built intro" either, so I'm not sure why you keep making this claim. In addition, as pointed out above, the reliable source which makes this statement explicitly is, well, reliable, and quoted in the first footnote. Also, the claim that you are arguing against is a straw man; the source doesn't say that your particular congregation receives funds from Christian organizations, but rather that the movement as a whole does. Jayjg 21:50, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

Please double check your source Jayjg and cite the exact page number and paragraph if possible. I have a friend that has a copy of the book - and it says no such thing at all as what you quote from it. Anyone can also look at page 1 of the Google book you posted and verify that your quote is no where to be found on page 1. Please post proof of your quote, please. inigmatus (talk) 05:39, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

Sect of Judaism or Christian Movement?

Based on various sources, the religion of 1st century followers of Yeshua is clearly a sect of Judaism, and that Christianity was a gentile-controlled sect of this sect that rose to prominence and power with the rise of the Holy Roman Empire. inigmatus (talk) 18:51, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

The artscroll source is about ancient Christians being excommunicated. It is not about modern Messianics. Messianic Judaism is a Christian sect. It is no more religiously Jewish than Jewish Buddhists would be. SkyWriter (Tim) (talk) 19:08, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

You are factually incorrect. Christianity arose as a sect of Messianic Judaism, not the other way around. What's the difference between "early Christianity" and "modern Messianic Judaism"? If there is no difference between the two groups, then the groups are synonymous and thus the artscroll source is still applicable to any group meeting that definition it calls a "heretical Jewish sect such as the...early Christians" with "heretical" dropped for POV of course. inigmatus (talk) 19:10, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

Inigmatus, please stop these bizarre edit war changes. The Artscroll Siddur footnote shows a passage that EXCLUDED early Christians from Judaism, and you are using it to INCLUDE modern Messianics as Judaism! Two negatives do not make a positive:

1. Early Christians were being EXCLUDED
2. Modern Messianics are not identical with early Christians anyway
3. You are equating them with early Christians to prove they aren't Christian, AND equating them with an EXCLUDED sect to INCLUDE them in Judaism!

It gives me vertigo just trying to follow it. I refuse to be dragged into an edit war, but it is apparent that you have no intention of working within Misplaced Pages standards or even to work with a consensus of a neutral position from multiple points of view. I have a degree in theology from a Christian seminary. LisaLiel is well knowledgable about Judaism. You are apparently a Messianic. If you intend to edit on Misplaced Pages, you have to use NPOV with the help of others with different POV. Although I am sympathetic to many Messianics for trying to forge a more authentic Christianity, it does NOT represent Judaism, and it is disengenuous to try to say so -- and I would add it is bad faith to twist Artscroll into doing so. That's like using the Baptist Faith and Message to prove that Jesus isn't God. Regardless of your POV, use sources AS those sources would have you use them (the golden rule of citation). SkyWriter (Tim) (talk) 19:25, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

This is not an edit war. Please stop reverting sourced material, and instead lets talk about theses things. The fact that it says it is a "heretical sect of Judaism" still makes it a "heretical sect of Judaism." So then, are you saying by your logic that if "early Christians" are called a "heretical sect of Judaism" that Artscroll intends to no longer make them a sect of Judaism? If so then applying your same logic to the other groups mentioned in that same sentence, that you would then make Artscroll saying that the Sadducces, and the Essenes aren't sects of Judaism either. inigmatus (talk) 19:38, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

Since you have resumed the previous edit war with three forces today, I've reported the violation. It is impossible to reconstruct the consensus around your disruptive edits. SkyWriter (Tim) (talk) 19:47, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

The "previous" edits you refer to were to removing unsourced material. Since when does that qualify for a 3RR? But I digress. If you are truly interested in building consensus on the matter of my ADDITIONS (not reverts), then please answer this question for me: how is modern Messianic Judaism different than the "early Christians" which Arstscroll says is a heretical "sect of Judaism"? Furthermore, answer in such a way so as not to disqualify the term "sect of Judaism" for the Sadducees, and the Essenes which are also mentioned in the exact same list. inigmatus (talk) 19:58, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

Proto-Christianity is not modern Messianism. To make that connection on your own, inigmatus, is a violation of WP:OR and/or WP:SYNTH. I have removed the inaccurate and mistaken extrapolation of the Artscroll commentary. -- Avi (talk) 20:05, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

1. Harris-Shapiro, Carol (1999). "Studying the Messianic Jews". Messianic Judaism: a rabbi’s journey through religious change in America. Boston, MA: Beacon Press. pp. pg. 1. ISBN 0807010405. OCLC 45729039. LCCN 98-0 – 0. "Messianic Judaism" is a Christian funded and organized movement whose origins can be traced to the United States through Christian missions to the Jews in the nineteenth and twentieth centuries, the Jesus people of the late 1960s and early 1970s, and the resurgence of American Jewish ethnicity during those same decades. "Messianic Jewish" congregations (churches) are comprised of those who may have been born Jewish, however, have become an apostate to Judaism by accepting Jesus as their savior. These churches however, are mostly run and comprised of Christians who have already accepted the belief of Jesus as their messiah. Worldwide the Messianic Jewish Movement can be traced to the London Society for the Promotion of Christianity among the Jews (now The Church's Ministry Among Jewish People), which was founded in 1809 and is the world's oldest extant Jewish Mission. In the United Kingdom there are a number of Messianic Congregations. They fall into 2 "camps". One, the British Messianic Jewish Alliance, is the world's oldest such Alliance, founded 1866. The other is the Union of British Messianic Jewish Congergations. {{cite book}}: |access-date= requires |url= (help); |format= requires |url= (help); |pages= has extra text (help); External link in |chapterurl= (help); Unknown parameter |chapterurl= ignored (|chapter-url= suggested) (help)
2. "So, What Exactly is a Messianic Congregation?". RabbiYeshua.com. Kehilat Sar Shalom. 2001. Retrieved 2007-02-20. Messianic Judaism of the first century busied itself with telling everyone of the Good News, it boldly proclaimed Yeshua – the resurrected Messiah – to all men and women.…Sin is lawlessness, it is "Torahlessness". If one is truly in Messiah, then one will be Torah observant.
3. • "The Jerusalem Council - Messianic Jewish Giyur (Conversion)". JerusalemCouncil.org. JerusalemCouncil.org. 2008. Retrieved 2008-05-07. We recognize the desire of people from the nations to convert into Messianic Judaism, also known as HaDerech (The Way), a sect of Judaism. By converting to the Jewish faith, converts are therefore...considered fully Jewish... are not to be reminded of their gentile (pagan) past by others
   • Robinson, B. (2006). "Messianic Judaism". Ontario Consultants on Religious Tolerance. Retrieved 2008-04-29.
   • "Recent incidents suggest rise in violence between Haredi, messianic Jews". Haaretz.com. 2006. Retrieved 2008-04-29.
   • Haberman, Clyde (1993). "Jews Who Call Jesus Messiah: Get Out, Says Israel". New York Times. Retrieved 2008-04-29.
4. Kaplan, Dana Evan (2005). "Introduction". In Dana Evan Kaplan (ed.) (ed.). The Cambridge companion to American Judaism. Cambridge Companions to Religion. New York, NY: Cambridge University Press. pp. pg. 9. ISBN 0521822041. LCCN 20-4. For most American Jews, it is acceptable to blend some degree of foreign spiritual elements with Judaism. The one exception is Christianity, which is perceived to be incompatible with any form of Jewishness....Messianic Jewish groups are thus seen as antithetical to Judaism and are completely rejected by the majority of Jews. {{cite book}}: |editor= has generic name (help); |pages= has extra text (help); Unknown parameter |month= ignored (help)

5. Orthodox

   "Why Don't Jews Believe in Jesus?". Ask the Rabbi. Aish HaTorah. February 1, 2001. Retrieved 2007-02-14. {{cite web}}: Check date values in: |date= (help)

   Conservative

   Waxman, Jonathan (2006). "Messianic Jews Are Not Jews". United Synagogue of Conservative Judaism. Retrieved 2007-02-14. Hebrew Christian, Jewish Christian, Jew for Jesus, Messianic Jew, Fulfilled Jew. The name may have changed over the course of time, but all of the names reflect the same phenomenon: one who asserts that s/he is straddling the theological fence between Christianity and Judaism, but in truth is firmly on the Christian side.…we must affirm as did the Israeli Supreme Court in the well-known Brother Daniel case that to adopt Christianity is to have crossed the line out of the Jewish community.

   Reform

   "Missionary Impossible". Hebrew Union College. August 9, 1999. Retrieved 2007-02-14. Missionary Impossible, an imaginative video and curriculum guide for teachers, educators, and rabbis to teach Jewish youth how to recognize and respond to "Jews-for-Jesus," "Messianic Jews," and other Christian proselytizers, has been produced by six rabbinic students at Hebrew Union College-Jewish Institute of Religion's Cincinnati School. The students created the video as a tool for teaching why Jewish college and high school youth and Jews in intermarried couples are primary targets of Christian missionaries. {{cite web}}: Check date values in: |date= (help)

   Reconstructionist/Renewal

   "FAQ's About Jewish Renewal". Aleph.org. 2007. Retrieved 2007-12-20. What is ALEPH's position on so called messianic Judaism? ALEPH has a policy of respect for other spiritual traditions, but objects to deceptive practices and will not collaborate with denominations which actively target Jews for recruitment. Our position on so-called "Messianic Judaism" is that it is Christianity and its proponents would be more honest to call it that. {{cite web}}: External link in |publisher= (help)

6. • Harries, Richard (2003). "Should Christians Try to Convert Jews?". After the evil: Christianity and Judaism in the shadow of the Holocaust. New York, NY: Oxford University Press. pp. pg. 119. ISBN 0199263132. LCCN 20-3. Thirdly, there is Jews for Jesus or, more generally, Messianic Judaism. This is a movement of people often of Jewish background who have come to believe Jesus is the expected Jewish messiah.…They often have congregations independent of other churches and specifically target Jews for conversion to their form of Christianity. {{cite book}}: |pages= has extra text (help); Unknown parameter |month= ignored (help)
   • Kessler, Edward (2005). "Messianic Jews". In Edward Kessler and Neil Wenborn (eds.) (ed.). A dictionary of Jewish-Christian relations. Cambridge; New York: Cambridge University Press. pp. 292–293. ISBN 9780521826921. OCLC 60340826. LCCN 20-5. From a mainstream Christian perspective Messianic Judaisms can also provoke hostility for misrepresenting Christianity. {{cite book}}: |access-date= requires |url= (help); |editor= has generic name (help); |format= requires |url= (help); External link in |chapterurl= (help); Unknown parameter |chapterurl= ignored (|chapter-url= suggested) (help)
   • Harris-Shapiro, Carol (1999). "Studying the Messianic Jews". Messianic Judaism: a rabbi’s journey through religious change in America. Boston, MA: Beacon Press. pp. pg. 3. ISBN 0807010405. OCLC 45729039. LCCN 98-0 – 0. And while many evangelical Churches are openly supportive of Messianic Judaism, they treat it as an ethnic church squarely within evangelical Christianity, rather than as a separate entity. {{cite book}}: |access-date= requires |url= (help); |format= requires |url= (help); |pages= has extra text (help); External link in |chapterurl= (help); Unknown parameter |chapterurl= ignored (|chapter-url= suggested) (help)
7. Schoeman, Roy H. (2003). Salvation is from the Jews (John 4:22): the role of Judaism in salvation history from Abraham to the Second Coming. San Francisco, California: Ignatius Press. ISBN 089870975X. LCCN 20-3. By the mid 1970s, Time magazine placed the number of Messianic Jews in the U.S. at over 50,000; by 1993 this number had grown to 160,000 in the U.S. and about 350,000 worldwide (1989 estimate). ... There are currently over 400 Messianic synagogues worldwide, with at least 150 in the U.S.
8. Wagner, Matthew. "Messianic Jews to protest 'discrimination'".
9. Messianic Jews & The Law of Return
10. Israel's Messianic Jews Under Attack

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