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Armenian genocide denial/Archive 2 is within the scope of WikiProject Armenia, an attempt to improve and better organize information in articles related or pertaining to Armenia and Armenians. If you would like to contribute or collaborate, you could edit the page attached to this page or visit the project page for further information.ArmeniaWikipedia:WikiProject ArmeniaTemplate:WikiProject ArmeniaArmenian NA This page does not require a rating on Misplaced Pages's content assessment scale.

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Archives

Archive 1

Reversal by Gazifikator

user:Gazifikator please explain how you justify the comment in the edit history of the article "rv revisionist view" when you made "this reversal of the following text:

The Armenian Genocide is widely acknowledged outside Turkey to have been one of the first modern, systematic genocides, as many Western sources point to the sheer scale of the death toll as evidence for a systematic, organized plan to eliminate the Armenians.

• Cite 1:
  • Ferguson, Niall. The War of the World: Twentieth-Century Conflict and the Descent of the West. New York: Penguin Press, 2006 p. 177 ISBN 1-5942-0100-5.
  • A Letter from The International Association of Genocide Scholars June 13, 2005)
• Cite 2: "Senate Resolution 106 - - Calling on the President to ensure that the foreign policy of the United States reflects appropriate understanding and sensitivity concerning issues related to Human Rights, Ethnic Cleansing, and Genocide Documented in the United States Record relating to the Armenian Genocide". Library of Congress.

--Philip Baird Shearer (talk) 11:17, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

I have just realised that you reverted all of my edits what was revisionist about the new section "===Genocide convention===" or the paragraph

Under international law, ethnic cleansing of itself is not enough to show that genocide has taken place as it must be accompanied by the biological destruction of the group.

• citation 1: ECHR Jorgic v. Germany Judgment, July 12 2007. § 42 citing Prosecutor v. Krstic, IT-98-33-T, judgment of 2 August 2001, § 43 citing the judgment of 19 April 2004 rendered by the Appeals Chamber of the ICTY, IT-98-33-A §§ 25,33, 47, 190,580)

--Philip Baird Shearer (talk) 19:21, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

user:Gazifikator I have reverted your reversions of my edits as you have not commented here. I have also reverted your reversion of my page move from "Armenian genocide debate" back to "Denial of the Armenian Genocide". Your reason for doing this in the edit history was "moved Armenian genocide debate to Denial of the Armenian Genocide over redirect: removing as per other cases of genocides". Yet there AFAICT are no other articles entitled "Denial of the XYZ Genocide". There is an article entitled Holocaust Denial but there is also Holodomor genocide question and History wars and sections in articles such as 1971 Bangladesh atrocities#Genocide debate. If you look at the Genocide denial article and the Genocides in history there are many many accusations of Genocide and refutations, and we do not have a Genocide denial article for each accusation of genocide.

In the version you reverted to the very first citation was to a page by the BBC called Q&A: Armenian genocide dispute not "Q&A: Denial of the Armenian Genocide". In my opinion as Turkish government denies that a genocide took place, the better to follow the lead of the BBC, to have a neutral title and let the facts speak for themselves. --Philip Baird Shearer (talk) 10:57, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

This move of yours as well as the accompanying edits are unacceptable. Prior to making such controversial changes you must first achieave a consensus. This is not the place the be bold. -- Ευπάτωρ 12:13, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

I have reverted your cut and past move. Cut and past moves are not acceptable as they destroy the history of an article that is needed for copy right reasons.(see: Help:Moving a page). I am willing to discuss the changes. But to date no one has replied on the talk page with a comment as to why they object to the changes. --Philip Baird Shearer (talk) 12:40, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

How convenient for you. You're willing to discuss the unilateral changes and the undiscussed move which you applied to an article you very well know is going to create problems? 1RR needs to be applied to this article immediately.-- Ευπάτωρ 12:42, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

I am more than willing to discuss both the changes to the article that I made and the move. Please explain what you objections are. --Philip Baird Shearer (talk) 12:51, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

My advice is that the above editor should not be engaged with, it is pointless to discuss this subject with a genocide denier. The title he proposes is invalid. There is no "debate", only "denial" and "acceptance", so his posts here are off-topic and should be removed from this talk page for the same reason that postings made on the Armenian Genocide entry are removed if their sole purpose is to deny the Armenian Genocide. If he persists in this obnoxious POV warring, I suggest reporting his actions. Meowy 16:14, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

User:Meowy to whom are you referring when you say "genocide denier". If it is to me where have I written anything that denies that there was a genocide and before making such postings again I would suggest that you read WP:CIVIL. If as you say there is no debate would the wording used in the BBC article mentioned above "Armenian genocide dispute" be more acceptable? --Philip Baird Shearer (talk) 17:14, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

Can't you understand what I wrote? I said "the above editor", so it was obvious it was you I was referring to. Admittedly, your ability to see the obvious is in question given your contributions here so far. Meowy 18:17, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

This is the Misplaced Pages not the BBC. There is no dispute or debate. You either deny or accept. -- Ευπάτωρ 17:20, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

When you write "you" do you mean "one"? I will assume the latter but please correct me if I am wrong on this. Are you absolutely sure that all people either a deny or accept? That may be true that for a minority of readers of Misplaced Pages , but most come here to be informed, so they may next to know of the events that occurred. So from their perspective the information presented is that of a debate and having read all the information on Misplaced Pages they may not have made up their minds. If I follow your logic are you suggesting that there should be two articles one that proposes that a genocide took place and another that denies that a genocide took place, with not contradictions to those two approaches on either page. In which case wouldn't these two articles be a point of view (POV) fork? --Philip Baird Shearer (talk) 17:50, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

The above (yes, I mean you, Philip Baird Shearer) editor arrives out of the blue and makes a series of controversial and POV-ridden edits without discussing anything beforehand, then he changes the entry title to suit his POV, again doing it without any discussion. It seems he is displaying an unusually precocious case of WP:OWN, together with a contempt for any editor who has previously worked on this article. That contempt includes not bothering to read past contributions to this talk page. Changing the title of this entry has twice before been formally proposed: changing "Denial of the Armenian Genocide" to "Rejection of the Armenian Genocide Allegations, and to "Denial of the Armenian Genocide Allegations". Both those proposed changes were proposed in advance, discussed in some detail, and in the end comprehensively rejected. Philip Baird Shearer appears to want to circumvent accepted Misplaced Pages procedures. For these reasons alone he is not deserving of normal considerations. Meowy 18:29, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

<--(Out dent)User:Meowy which part of my edit "was controversial and POV-ridden". --Philip Baird Shearer (talk) 18:54, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

Everything you have done here has been controversial and POV-ridden. But don't just take my word for it. Read WP:RM. It says, on moving an article from one title to another, "If there has been any past debate about the best title for the page, or if anyone could honestly disagree with the move, then treat it as controversial". In the Requesting potentially controversial moves section, it says, "Please follow all three steps listed below when requesting a move", the first two steps being to "add move template to talk page" and then "Create a place for discussion on the article’s talk page". There have in the past been two formal proposals to rename this article, therefore any further page moves are controversial and you should have followed those set procedures – instead you chose to ignore them. Meowy 19:07, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

I can assure you that I do not have contempt for any editor. I happen to think that the current name has nothing to do with the previous requested moves, which were in my opinion not sensible names as they carried POV implications. The section of WP:RM is for requesting non controversial moves I did not make such a request. But let us set that aside for the moment. You write "Everything you have done here has been controversial" which does not really get us any further so let us salami slice it. Please explain to me what in your opinion (other than the page move) was the most "controversial and POV-ridden" edit that I made to this page? --Philip Baird Shearer (talk) 19:26, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

I've said it before, I do not intend to engage with the above editor. Ignorance of Misplaced Pages procedures is not an excuse for breaking them - neither is thinking (as in "I happen to think" and "in my opinion") you are above them. If the above editor wishes to start following the proper procedures for conducting or proposing controversial edits then he may get a more active response. He can start by placing the appropriate move template into this talk page, make a new section to contain any discussions and then say why he is proposing a name change for the article. Meowy 19:44, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

Philip Baird Shearer, reliable sources do not negate the existance of the Armenian Genocide and its occurance, so accordingly, Misplaced Pages has no obligation to appease the unreliable ones which do. So the article prior to your unilateral changes against Wiki consensus and following edit warring was not one-sided as you claimed. The views of the ignorant liars and false scholars are presented. Armenian Genocide denial pertains to those whose only efforts in 'debates' actually constitutes deliberate dishonesty. You can call it what you like, but it is not "neutrality" it's fraud. This discussion is over.-- Ευπάτωρ 19:45, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

User:Eupator, you wrote "following edit warring was not one-sided as you claimed" where did I claim that there was edit warring let alone one sided edit warring? AFAICT I have not added any to this article so too which unreliable sources are you referring? If you think I have added any unreliable sources then what are they?--Philip Baird Shearer (talk) 14:20, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

I suggest we all don't discuss anything more with him until he places the tags I requested, making a formal proposal for changing the title. As it is now, the old title will return once the move protection is lifted, so there is no need to waste time on this unless he makes that formal proposal. Meowy 19:48, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

User:Meowy why not put in a WP:RM request to move the article to "denial of the Armenian Genocide" and give your reasons why that is the best name? --Philip Baird Shearer (talk) 12:12, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

Your point-blank refusal to follow Misplaced Pages procedures is astonishing. This article has been frozen in order that the changes you made to it (the title change and page move) can be discussed, yet you refuse to start the necessary actions to initiate that discussion! Meowy 13:54, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

User:Meowy, the article has been protected because of cut and past moves. I have initiated a discussion (I started this section), but to date despite my request to you and others to discuss my edits you have not done so. Indeed to my request "Please explain to me what in your opinion (other than the page move) was the most "controversial and POV-ridden" edit that I made to this page?" you wrote "I've said it before, I do not intend to engage with the above editor." so, can you now please reply a little more detail so that we can have a discussion about the edits I made to the article. --Philip Baird Shearer (talk) 14:20, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

How many times do I have to repeat myself before you understand! You changed the title of this entry without any prior discussion. You did not follow the procedures that are required for changing the titles of contentious articles. And don't dare tell me you didn't think the title change was contentuous - you archived the talk page so you must have seen the two previous discussions about title changes. And you are still refusing to follow the proper procedures by refusing to insert the move template and subsection into this talk page! If this behaviour were from a new editor then it might be understandable, but from an administrator it is astonishing. Meowy 14:58, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

Moving, redirecting and cut-and-pasting...

See WP:ANI#Armenian genocide debate

...will stop. I have protected the wrong version for three days to allow you people to talk and come to a consensus. You may like to seek a third opinion or dispute resolution, but disputes like these need to be played out on the talk page, not in the mainspace. ➨ ❝ЯEDVERS❞ will never be anybody's hero now 18:44, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

I'm not sure you understand but this is not a "dispute". I will refer the matter to Moreschi.-- Ευπάτωρ 19:46, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

True. It can't be disputed that Philip Baird Shearer ignored normal procedures when making the page move, so the move was always invalid and should always have been reverted. Meowy 19:53, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

Not only is he not a new user but he has admin privileges as well. Surely he must have been aware that he can't just go ahead and move the page.-- Ευπάτωρ 20:00, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

That's a clear case of an admin's abuse of his tools, on top. He deleted the former "Armenian genocide debate" in order to prepare the ground for this move. Sardur (talk) 22:24, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

See this and the relevant summary. Sardur (talk) 23:35, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

I think that was just the old redirect he was erasing, he had to do that before changing "Denial of the Armenian Genocide" back to "Armenian genocide debate". Perhaps more significant is that he archived all the old talk page discussions. And that he posted comments on the talk pages of everyone who objected to his POV editing or reverted his title changes. That could be taken as bullying by an administrator. Meowy 01:39, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

You don't need to be admin in order to archive, but you have to in order to delete. This plus the summary shows clearly an admin misuse. That's what caused my revert. Sardur (talk) 02:12, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

User:Sardur you linked to a summary yes, but not a full summary. I moved the page from denial of the Armenian Genocide to Armenian genocide debate. At the time no such page existed (red link) so there was no problem moving this page to that name. Gazifikator moved it back to denial of the Armenian Genocide and then about an hour later at 13:04, 1 October 2008 , added {{rfd}} to the redirect page with the comment "represents a commonly criticized, revisionist view" but did not add any comment to the page Misplaced Pages:Redirects for discussion. On the 2nd October I removed the {{rfd}} as it had not been completed properly. At about the same time I added a to this talk page asking Gazifikator to debate the changes. I waited a day (actually 23 hours -- I got mixed up on GMT) and then moved the page again and reverted his revert of my edits. As there was only a redirect on the target page name and no one had commented on the talk page, I see no problem with that move. The page could have been moved back to denial of the Armenian Genocide after my move (as there was only a redirect on it) by simply using the move tag button, but instead user:Eupator chose to move it with a cut and past move, something that you repeated at 17:22, 3 October 2008,(See help:move# Misplaced Pages-specific help for reasons why cut and paste moves are not allowed). Once a page is moved using cut and past then non admin users for technical reasons can not move it and need to place a request to move the page. --Philip Baird Shearer (talk) 13:54, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

And ? Your first move was undiscussed and unjustified, you didn't have to remove again and to use your admin tools in order to be able to do that. Clear abuse. Sardur (talk) 17:28, 5 October 2008 (UTC)

When this page is unprotected in a few hours, don't move the page back to the old title using the "history" tab, use the "move" tab - that's what it's for. Meowy 15:59, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

In order to do that, I'm quite sure Denial of the Armenian Genocide as it stands right now has to be deleted first... Sardur (talk) 16:37, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

I think you just first delete the redirect that currently redirects "Denial of the Armenian Genocide" to "Armenian genocide debate", then do a normal move since there is no "Denial of the Armenian Genocide" article. ButI haven't done that sort of thing before, so I might be wrong. Meowy 18:13, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

That won't work without the history of "Denial of the Armenian Genocide" being deleted, and for that, you need to be an admin, like Mr-I-move-and-then-you-discuss. Sardur (talk) 18:51, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

Yes, that seems to be what we need to do. I just tried unsuccessfully to rename it myself after first erasing the redirect on the Denial of the Armenian Genocide page. Meowy 19:45, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

Are we all agreed that the move back to "Denial of the Armenian Genocide" would be uncontroversial, given that the move to "Armenian genocide debate" was not discussed before that move was made and that there is clearly no concensus for that move to remain the current title. Meowy 20:03, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

I think that goes without saying, but evidently that requires admin intervention.-- Ευπάτωρ 20:05, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

Ditto. Sardur (talk) 20:16, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

I've requested (by adding the appropriate template to the page) that the now empty article titled "Denial of the Armenian Genocide" should be deleted. Once it is gone, I think we can make the page move. Meowy 00:15, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

RFC: Merge "recognition of the Armenian Genocide" into this article

Template:RFCpol Template:RFChist

At the moment there are three articles. One which concentrates on the events themselves and is called the Armenian Genocide and two more articles called recognition of the Armenian Genocide (RAG) and the other was called denial of the Armenian Genocide (DAG) until I renamed it "Armenian genocide debate" which cover the opinions if a genocide took place. I my opinion the two article construct of recognition and denial are a clear example of a point of view (POV) fork:

A content fork is usually an unintentional creation of several separate articles all treating the same subject. A point of view (POV) fork is a content fork deliberately created to avoid neutral point of view guidelines, often to avoid or highlight negative or positive viewpoints or facts. Both content forks and POV forks are undesirable on Misplaced Pages, as they avoid consensus building and therefore violate one of our most important policies.

and this is a problem because the article names imply that there are only two positions—either the events took place and they were a genocide or they did not and no genocide took place. However there are shades of opinion that range between these two positions which means that either these in between views have to be repeated in both articles or they are marginalized in one or both articles.

For example the BBC article, mentioned in this article called "Q&A: Armenian genocide dispute", makes the point that "The UK, US and Israel are among those that use different terminology to describe the events." yet there is no mention of this in this article and the UK's position is mentioned in one sentence in the RAG article. In 2001 the BBC reported that the British government's position is "The Foreign Office accepts that the massacres took place, but insists that they do not qualify as genocide." Baroness Ramsay of Cartvale made the British Governments position clear in a statement in Parliament in 1999 (Lords Hansard text for 14 Apr 1999 (190414-09) Column 826: 6.43 pm):

The position of Her Majesty's Government, which the noble Baroness has asked us to review, is, I believe, well known and understood, but it certainly bears repeating here tonight. The British Government condemned the massacres of 1915-16 at the time and viewed the sufferings of the Armenian people then as a tragedy of historic proportions. The British Government of today, like their predecessors, in no way dissent in any form from that view. Nor do we seek to deny or to play down the extent of that tragedy. It was a gruesome, horrifying tragedy, as the noble Earl, Lord Shannon, and other noble Lords have echoed tonight. I assure them that we are in no way dissenting from that analysis of what happened, but in the absence of unequivocal evidence to show that the Ottoman administration took a specific decision to eliminate the Armenians under their control at the time, British governments have not recognised the events of 1915 and 1916 as "genocide".

This is a view that was reiterated outside Parliament by the British Government on 7 December 2007.

If the two articles (DAG and RAG) are merged into one article (called Armenian genocide debate or the Armenian genocide dispute) it would be possible to give a more balanced view to all opinions about the events without giving undue weight to any of them (in the same was as the BBC does in its article "Q&A: Armenian genocide dispute" published 10 July 2008). At the moment the POV fork created by having to articles about the same subject is a breach of Misplaced Pages's WP:NPOV policy. --Philip Baird Shearer (talk) 13:09, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

Very good. I support your reasoning. Fold in Kurdish recognition of the Armenian genocide while you are at it. --Adoniscik 13:35, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

This proposal is a POV fork invented by Philip Baird Shearer to distract attention from his previous invalid actions. In that light, the only answer to this proposal can be no. I only wish Philip Baird Shearer's liking for inserting templates hither and tither would extend to him inserting the template he should have used before making undiscussed page moves. Meowy 15:22, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

Please assume good faith and assume that my motives for requesting this merger is to improve Misplaced Pages. If you will assume good faith, then please comment of the pros and cons of such a merger from the point of view of improvements to Misplaced Pages.--Philip Baird Shearer (talk) 18:19, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

Quote, (and I'm sure you know it): "this guideline does not require that editors continue to assume good faith in the presence of contrary evidence". And I'm sure I'm not alone in getting tired of most of your posts containing links to Misplaced Pages policy pages we all know about. Meowy 18:50, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

His purpose here and intentions are becoming more clear. His so called proposal (POST FACT mind you) is absolutly unacceptable. By changing the title he has changed the subject of the article itself. This article was created for the purpose of presenting the subject of negation. Debate implies covering a subject where two positions are in conflict. So he killed an article by replacing its subject with another one. His unilateral actions are unacceptable, unjustifiable and unexcusable. In fact he has unexcusibly changed the entire subject of the article to include a section about the genocide convention. What would normally be considered as irrelevent was made relevent by changing the subject. How convenient, everyone should do that for their pov, when they wish to add sections but the subject itself won't allow that. In fact, you have made those changes before moving the article. So your action was clearly premeditated, you added that section with the intend of killing the article to replace it with another one by changing the subject which it is supposed to cover. The plot thickens... As for his reverts. Philip Baird Shearer, should know that this article is under the umbrella of discretionary sanctions Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Armenia-Azerbaijan 2.-- Ευπάτωρ 15:32, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

Thank you for pointing out the page Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Armenia-Azerbaijan 2. I read the sub-section on Principles with interest, and hope that we can all abide by them. I also await with interest your discussion of the issue of whether there should be two articles or one. If you think two articles are better then how do we address the point of view (POV) fork. For example into which article should the views such as those expressed by HMG be included? Also if there are to be two articles into which article you think an explanation be put about what is a genocide and why HMG takes the position they do. The section I introduced into this article Armenian genocide debate#Genocide convention, but if there are to be two article (RAG & DAG) then where should such an explanation go. Should it for example be included in the main article Armenian Genocide? --Philip Baird Shearer (talk) 18:19, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

I have no intention to discuss any of the above with you when you ignored this page prior to making the move with additonal undiscussed and controversial changes. Then you reverted multiple times back your malicious version, if your only concern was that the move back wasn't done properly and you weren't simply engaged in move warring as you have in the past on other articles than you could have moved the article back to its original stable state. Once you or someone else corrects your mistake then, and only then can we proceed and discuss your concerns.-- Ευπάτωρ 18:29, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

Hi Philip, I disagree with your proposal and your hostile takeover of this article. (I'll expect that WP:CIVIL warning within the hour). Hakob (talk) 17:34, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

Please could you explain why you think two articles are better than one, and how do you propose to address the issue of my concerns about the two articles being a point of view (POV) fork. --Philip Baird Shearer (talk) 18:19, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

The previous version of the article was clearly a POV fork. This is a policy violation. Does anybody have any better ideas to resolve it? --Adoniscik 18:11, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

It clearly was "pov" for genocide deniers. Phillip's edits are unequivocally unacceptable, and even moreso when he did not even seek a consensus to his edits but brazenly changed the wording to his unilateral liking. We're not in any way obliged to use the obfuscated wording of BBC or the British government just because they word it like so. We're basing our wording based on the majority of genocide scholars and historians who agree that 1) the Armenian Genocide occurred and 2) that, most prominently, the Turkish government as well as other states engage in the systematic denial of its occurrence, 3)thereby signifying that there is no actual debate among scholars on whether or not the genocide occurred but rather an attempt by some to deliberately negate it as a historical notion. Some sort of reprimand should be in order here, considering that Phillip has clearly overstepped his bounds and abused his admin. privileges to suit an article to his personal disposition.--Marshal Bagramyan (talk) 19:53, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

• Comment: first things first: Denial of the Armenian Genocide gives you 176 :returns at google books

and 117 at google scholar versus Armenian genocide debate that gives you 2 returns @ google books and 4 @ google scholar

Considering the evidence of notability: Denial of the Armenian Genocide is a subject of study and a title that deserves an article on WP, and in case necessary any relevant debates regarding the subject should be part of the content, not the title.

The second question: merging recognition of the Armenian Genocide into Denial of the Armenian Genocide could be reasonable only in case the article is not going to be just way too long. In case this might be the case, there should be an article about the 'Denial of the Armenian Genocide' and the debate-recognition issues can be covered more closely in the current "recognition of" article.

The bottom line, renaming the title of this article and enforcing the move by edit warring has not improved WP in any way. The renaming should be reverted ASAP.--Termer (talk) 07:17, 5 October 2008 (UTC)

PS. after looking at the length of this article, merging another related subject into this-one is clearly not justified. What this article should have though, a clear section looking at the debate-recognition issues that would also direct the reader to an appropriate {{main| article. Thanks!--Termer (talk) 07:35, 5 October 2008 (UTC)

The use of a phrase does not in itself mean that it is necessarily a desirable name for an article, particularly if that name leads to a POV fork. Take for example one of the articles returned by the scholar search. It is in fact a book and not an article and some of the book is viewable. It is entitled "The Criminal Law of Genocide" and is edited by Ralph Henham, and Paul Behrens. The first chapter in it entitled "The Armenian Genocide: A contextual view of the crime and a Politics of Denial" by Raffi Sarkissan Page 1. As can be seen by the name, the chapter examines both facets of the issue. The editors have not chosen to divide the two vies into two chapters. If there is one Misplaced Pages article then things like the statement by Baroness Ramsay of Cartvale's in the House of Lords "but in the absence of unequivocal evidence to show that the Ottoman administration took a specific decision to eliminate the Armenians under their control at the time, British governments have not recognised the events of 1915 and 1916 as 'genocide'" can be contrasted with Raffi Sarkissan's statement

... on 29 September 1915, Turkish minister of the interior, Talat Pasha conveyed to the Governor of Aleppo '.... All of the Armenians living in Turkey are to be destroyed and annihilated ... Without taking into consideration the fact that they are women and children and disabled, their very existence will be ended ...

With two articles one that emphasises recognition and the other denial this type of NPOV comparison is difficult unless large amount of information is to be duplicated in two articles. --Philip Baird Shearer (talk) 09:37, 5 October 2008 (UTC)

That quote by Ramsay that you keep posting, is worthless as its coming from someone who is quite insignificant. Nevermind the obvious political implications behind it. For a British view, the Winston Churchill quote in the main article is more than enough.-- Ευπάτωρ 15:16, 5 October 2008 (UTC)

She was stating the current British Government's position (and the politics are of course relevant -- and it is not necessarily just to appease Turkey as the UK has its own concerns about its own predecessors actions being examined by other states and found wanting). When did Churchill write his words about an "administrative holocaust"? Was it in the 1931 edition of the World Crisis, 1911–1918 or after the coining of the term genocide and the signing of the Genocide Convention? If he was writing in 1931 (the publication of the first edition) it was during his time in the wilderness so he was expressing a personal view not one held by of the British Government. However even if he was writing in 1931 and expressing his own personal opinion, then his position and the current British Government's are not so far apart as both consider the massacres of Armenian were a "crime against humanity" a view first expressed by a British Government in 1915 while Churchill was a member of that government. Crimes against humanity are "odious offences in that they constitute a serious attack on human dignity or grave humiliation or a degradation of one or more human beings; they are not isolated or sporadic events" (from the commentary on the Rome Statute, Article 7 - Crimes against humanity) and "Genocide and crimes against humanity are of equal gravity" (comment by Larissa van den Herik). So the British Governments position is not one that refutes the gravity of the offences committed against the Armenian people, it is that the crime is one that is clearly provable and over which there is little dispute other than by those who deny that the events took place. This is clearly a position between those who deny that systematic atrocities were committed and the majority of genocide scholars in North America and Europe who think that there is enough evidence to prove that the the atrocities were a genocide. Two polarised articles makes it difficult to present the spectrum of views that exist on this issue, and to present the arguments, put forward to support those views (without of course giving any view undue weight), so that the reader can decide for themselves which point of view best describes the facts (Let the facts speak for themselves). --Philip Baird Shearer (talk) 06:40, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

Well Philip Baird Shearer, I think you're entering a dangerous territory here. First of all please take a look at Genocide definitions. The fact that the UK, US and Israel are among those that use different terminology to describe the events in Armenia is not a reason good enough to justify your actions. Also, following your arguments, it may open up the Pandora's box on WP including that Holocaust is not recognized as an act of genocide in certain countries. Therefore please do not disrupt Misplaced Pages to illustrate a point! thanks! --Termer (talk) 18:12, 5 October 2008 (UTC)

He seems to have tried to do the same thing for the Pontic Greek Genocide article: first get it renamed (removing the word genocide from the title), then get it merged into an article dealing with the Greek-Turkish war. He did manage to get the "G" changed to "g" - presumably because "Genocide" implies a specific event, but "genocide" is just a word, an allegation for debate. Meowy 21:29, 5 October 2008 (UTC)

User:Termer please what I have written in this article "Agreement among scholars on whether a genocide took place is further complicated because not all scholars use the the Genocide Convention as a definition of what constitutes genocide (see genocide definitions),...". User:Meowy please show where I have suggested "merging into Greek-Turkish war". --Philip Baird Shearer (talk) 06:40, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

OK, to be more exact I should have wrote "subsumed inside a larger article" rather than "merged into". You wrote: "how about moving it to a name that encompasses the Ottoman and Turkish governments campaign against the Greek population in the territories of what is today the Republic of Turkey.", and about that name you wrote "it should have a neutral descriptive name" (i.e. not one containing the word "Genocide"). Subsumption is also what you want to happen to this article. Meowy 15:09, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

If you want to be so politically correct about it, I don't have problems with if the article would be called Denial of the Armenian genocide.--Termer (talk) 14:57, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

The small-case "g" issue would seem, on the surface, not worth arguing about. But it does make a difference. We don't talk about the Italian renaissance, we call it the Italian Renaissance. As I had said a bit earlier, the use of a small-case "g" changes the subject from being a specific event into one that is just an allegation for debate. Meowy 15:13, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

Well, there is a difference between Armenian Genocide and the denial of it. Denial of the Armenian Genocide can refer to the denial of something that is universally recognized as an act of Genocide according to the international law, meaning in theory someone would need to take Turkey to the International Court of Justice to settle the issues. Until this has not happened, we can't really speak about the denial of Genocide but the denial of genocide. I'd suggest going for a compromise since WP is not really a place to debate the issues, and therefore, to get a WP:consensus I'd rename the article to Denial of the Armenian genocide--Termer (talk) 15:47, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

PS. and in fact actually Turkey has taken steps to get the question settled by the IOJ if it was a Genocide according to the Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide or a genocide according to the definitions of a number of scholars.--Termer (talk) 16:07, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

Turkey is denying it committed genocide, but this article is about the denial of the Armenian Genocide. It's the denial of a historical event that is widely described using the term "Armenian Genocide", so I think it should be capitalised. The Armenian Genocide article is also capitalised, so I'm sure this has been discussed before on that article's talk page (probably on numerous occasions). If the main article is capitalised, then it should be capitalised here. And it shouldn't be changed here until an agreement is made to change the Armenian Genocide article, given that it is the main one on the subject (change it there and the change will flow downwards through all the related articles, but a change can't usually flow upwards from a side-article to the main one). So really there is no point in raising this issue here - go to the main article and raise it there. Meowy 16:16, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

BTW, those articles cited are wrong, Turkey has made no approach to the International Court of Justice. But did you notice that even in those articles, written from a Turkish-state POV, they use "Armenian Genocide". Meowy 16:33, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

If Turkey could find some wording to bring a case in front of the ICJ, it cold help clarify the point about if there is enough evidence for a court of law to decide if there was an "intent to destroy" the Armenian people. But User talk:Termer it is not quite that simple, because a genocide is not only a Genocide because it is recognised as such by an international court of law for several reasons. The first is is that some genocides have been recognised as such under municipal laws that incorporate the Genocide Convention. Secondly just like municipal law there is a different level of proof required for a criminal conviction in a criminal case and that in a civil compensation case (see O. J. Simpson) so there is a difference in the proof required in a court of law and an academic opinion that the weight of evidence favours an interpretation that the events were a genocide. No one can be tried under the Rome Statute of the International Criminal Court the ICC has no retrospective jurisdiction (Ex post facto law) and can only prosecute crimes that have been committed after the Rome Statute entered into force. This is the norm for international law and was a point brought up by some of the defendants at the Nuremberg Trials (Nullum crimen, nulla poena sine praevia lege poenali) although it was argued by the prosecution that all the prosecutions brought under the London Charter were covered by specific treaties (such as Kellogg-Briand Pact) or more general clauses such as the Martens Clause in the Hague Conventions. It should also be born in mind that the Nuremberg Prosecutors did not prosecute members of the Nazi regime for crimes committed against German citizens, as at the time the more recent concept of an international "responsibility to protect" did not exist but not interfering in a state's internal affairs (and included as Article 2.7 of the UN Charter). Because the crime of genocide did not exist during the period of the Nuremberg Trials, no one was convicted of genocide for actions carried out during WWII even if they participated in genocide -- they were found guilty of other crimes such as war crimes and crimes against humanity -- however few in North America or Europe would argue that just because there were no prosecutions for genocide that the of the Holocaust was not a genocide (although as the Misplaced Pages article makes clear many scholars do not include the actions by the Nazis against Gypsies as part of the Holocaust which presumably means that they do not consider the killing of Gypsies a genocide, although they would not dispute that many Gypsies were systematically murdered). --Philip Baird Shearer (talk) 13:56, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

This article is about the denial of the Armenian Genocide; it's talk page is not a soapbox for you to inform the World your opinion of what should or should not be called "genocide". Cite me works produced in which those that deny the Armenian Genocide have used your reasoning to deny it. If you can't, all your words here are just original research - though they might be useful if you are wishing to gain work in one of the numerous PR agencies and lobbyist organisations employed by Turkey. Meowy 14:39, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

• The unilateral page move was awful, and the page should be moved back to Denial of the Armenian Genocide (or a similar title) as soon as feasable. There is simply no debate about whether there was a genocide or not among academic historians, and those are the sources that we should be using for a topic like this. The British government's statements are clearly conditioned by its desire to maintain good relations with Turkey, but there's no reason for political niceties to dictate the title or content of Misplaced Pages articles. --Akhilleus (talk) 13:17, 5 October 2008 (UTC)

The Page move was incorrect but you should just follow the wording that the holocaust of the jews page currently holds. That has been uncontended for quite a while and seems to show its not a debate as it did happen. The page move is now correct, talk page should be continued if further debates are to be on going on the now original page. The links within the main topic of armenian genocide need to be changed also for people to be directly correctly. Also just for addition, Mr Phil Baird Shearer has been editing and archiving a lot of articles such as Liancourt Rocks, again a dispute hotly contended. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.239.159.6 (talk) 06:28, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

User:Meowy you wrote above "Turkey is denying it committed genocide, but this article is about the denial of the Armenian Genocide. It's the denial of a historical event that is widely described using the term "Armenian Genocide", so I think it should be capitalised." into which article do you think that the views of individuals and organisations like the British Government should go where they recognise the events as crimes against humanity "but in the absence of unequivocal evidence to show that the Ottoman administration took a specific decision to eliminate the Armenians under their control at the time", do "not recognised the events of 1915 and 1916 as 'genocide'"? --Philip Baird Shearer (talk) 13:56, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

You just used the phrase "British Government" not "British government", 'nuf said. Meowy 14:27, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

If there are two articles (as there are at the moment) which article should views such as the British Government go? --Philip Baird Shearer (talk)

The main one I suppose. I would not equate non-recognition solely for political reasons with denial. It could go in the recognition article as well quite frankly since the main one is already very bloated.-- Ευπάτωρ 17:40, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

I think it would be better here (if by "main one" you mean Armenian Genocide. However, and this has been discussed before (on the main page I think), not saying something happened is not the same as saying it didn't happen. Meowy 18:41, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

BTW, just to put a final nail in the coffin of this RfC merge - there is another "Denial of" article being discussed on the reliable sources notice board Misplaced Pages:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard#Denial_of_the_Holodomor, with the concern there being that denial of the Holodomor is not a notable phenomenon when compared to Holocaust denial. As the Google search quoted earlier showed, and as proven by the extensive literature on the subject, "denial of the Armenian Genocide" is also a notable phenomenon and thus worthy of an article on Misplaced Pages. Meowy 19:42, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

User:Meowy The British Government recognise that the incidents took place but they choose to describe them as crimes against humanity not genocide so why do you think they should be in the denial article rather than the recognition article? --Philip Baird Shearer (talk) 09:00, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

Because the Armenian Genocide is a controversial subject only because the Turkish state denies it happened. That continuing denial is the only reason certain groups persist in asking the opinion of politicians about it. Meowy 22:58, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

Your answer does not answer the question of why you think the British Government's position should be in the DAG and not the RAG article. --Philip Baird Shearer (talk) 09:29, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

I suppose it could be in both articles. Governments are mostly being asked to comment by those wanting official statements of recognition. However, if it were not for the continuing denial by Turkey, not only would the British government cease to use diplomatic niceties in its language, there would be no need for anyone to be asking the British government about the issue. Meowy 23:38, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

<--- outdent. Is that not an indication that these two articles (RAG & DAG) are a point of view (POV) fork? --Philip Baird Shearer (talk) 18:27, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

Yes, it is. There should be a grand total of one article on this topic. --ClarkLewis (talk) 20:49, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

About the "both sides" term

When we speake about a denial, no "both" sides exist. this view is condemned by respected scolars as a part of denial itself:

"When it comes to the historical reality of the Armenian genocide, there is no “Armenian” or “Turkish” side of the “question,” any more than there is a “Jewish” or a “German” side of the historical reality of the Holocaust: There is a scientific side, and an unscientific side acknowledgment or denial. In the case of the denial of the Armenian genocide, it is even founded on a massive effort of falsification, distortion, cleansing of archives, and direct threats initiated or supported by the Turkish state, making any “dialogue” with Turkish deniers highly problematic." Genocide Denial in the state of Denmark. Open letter by Torben Jorgensen and Matthias Bjornlund, World Association of International Studies, Stanford University, California. Gazifikator (talk) 07:26, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

Both sides in those statements; refers to "Armenian defenders" and "Turkish deniers" (in your response "with Turkish deniers highly problematic") This is dual concept, like black and white, one does not exist without the other. The problem here is not if there is a third position or if "Turkish deniers" do not have anything factual to say; it is your own constant rewording of what is stated in the cited Turkish sources. It is like, you are saying "No Turk's can not say it that way, I will tell you what you can say..." --Kemalist (talk) 07:35, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

By the way, there are sides. If it was really on the issue of facts, "terminology" would not be a problem. Armenians say "deportation." Turks say "relocation." If it was only factual, all the regions Armenians relocated were inside Ottoman Empire. Check the map. Does Armenians fix their terminology? Can you, in your power, fix this in the main Article? There are sides. One side say "deportation" other side say "relocation." It is not as simple as you want to believe. --Kemalist (talk) 07:46, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

See the sources: there is no Armenian and Turkish views, there is a commonly-accepted view and a mostly criticized politically biased denialist view. FYI well-known scolar Taner Akcam is also a Turkish, and Israel Charny, f.e., is not an Armenian.Gazifikator (talk) 08:16, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

So you are saying you do not have tolerance "to criticized politically biased" views of Turks and they should be reworded by the way you accept-understand. And "the biased denialist view" you say is not a side, so what it is, a corner? Also what do you say about the "deportation," "relocation" controversy? If there is no side, same people who use totally different words for the same event? Hey Gazi....! Do you have any relationship with Gazi Mustafa? By the way, side topic, How is the weather in Turkey :-) --Kemalist (talk) 08:38, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

i dont know if the denialist view is a corner or not, but the only thing I know there are not both sides and reliable, third-pary sources prove it. Gazifikator (talk) 08:45, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

Acceptable content for this article

In the light of recent contributions to the article, which I think mostly amounted to original research, it could be useful to start thinking about what this article should and should not contain. I think that the content has to be based only on material that is derived from:
1/ Sources that seek to deny the Armenian Genocide.
2/ Sources that are commenting on the above sources, and on the aims and beliefs of those producing them.
3/ Reported events connected to, or resulting from, that denial, or from the act of commenting on that denial or on the denialist sources.
If we go beyond that, then we are just presenting our own opinions, which would be classed as original research.

Thoughts?

Meowy 15:07, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

Any article on WP should be based on secondary third-party published sources. see WP:Sources It can't be simpler than that. Any views on the subject have to be cited not by Turks or Armenians but by third-parties. And it has nothing do with Sources that seek to deny the Armenian Genocide or Sources that are commenting on the above sources, and on the aims and beliefs of those producing them. etc.--Termer (talk) 04:52, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

If you are saying that Turkish or Armenian sources can't be cited just because they are Turkish or Armenian, then that is nothing more than racism. Go over to the Holocaust article and eliminate all the material derived from Jewish authors, and see what happens! And, as Gazifikator wrote earlier, there are "no Armenian and Turkish views, there is a commonly-accepted view and a mostly criticized politically-biased denialist view". If you say the article can have "nothing to do with sources that are commenting on the above sources, and on the aims and beliefs of those producing them" then the article cannot mention the prosecution of authors/publishers in Turkey for talkng or writing about the genocide or publishing AG-related books that the state consider to be anti-Turkish, or commentators (mostly Turkish) who have written about the cultural reasons behind the continuing denial. Meowy 19:05, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

Incapable of toleration of other views

Is there a reason why this article is constantly vandalized by users who sides with Armenian position? The problem with the injection Armenian views, which are stated mainly as "opinions", are they are original research when compared to "denial position". The main article is full with Armenian POV, and Turkish position is constantly deleted from the main article. If Armenians delete these positions from this article, than what is the meaning of having this article? --Kemalist (talk) 07:23, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

Read WP:NPOV. the turkish official view is nothing than a denialist, politically-biased and non-historical view, which can't be represented here as we're not going to represent hitler's views on Jews and Slavions just because of "toleration". be neutral, not radical, if even you're representing a radical view. Gazifikator (talk) 08:12, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

So you are saying; Turkish view should be removed from Misplaced Pages, because you believe Turks and Hitler are same and whatever Turks say sounds like propagation of hate speech to you! --Kemalist (talk) 08:47, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

Having two articles, denial of the Armenian Genocide and recognition of the Armenian Genocide force statements into both that are just a bias truism for example "The term "Genocide" has itself been subject to critical consideration by deniers." Well yes it has but it has also been subject to critical consideration by accusers as well. It would be more inclusive and accurate to write "The term "Genocide" has been subject to critical consideration.". To facilitate such language it would be better if both articles were merged into one article with a non bias name. --Philip Baird Shearer (talk) 18:05, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

Give it a rest. This article is going to remain, its title is going to remain the same, the subject matter of its content is going to remain the same, it is not going to be merged with any other article. Meowy 23:01, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

Given that you do not think the articles will be merger how do you suggest that the issue of non neutral language is addressed given that this is article is a POV fork? --Philip Baird Shearer (talk) 09:50, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

It would only make sense to merge an article called Non recognition of the Armenian Genocide into this one. And the fact that some governments don't recognize the events as legally genocide according to the international law doesn't make them automatically genocide deniers. So once you apply less personal bias to these articles, the articles become having non biased names just fine.--Termer (talk) 04:44, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

I don't think that Non recognition of the Armenian Genocide is a sensible title. Why not have one article called Armenian genocide dispute, Armenian genocide debate, and merge the contents of the denial of the Armenian Genocide and recognition of the Armenian Genocide? Having two articles rather than one polarise the debate/dispute, they are a POV fork and lead to NPOV content. --Philip Baird Shearer (talk) 09:37, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

Philip Baird Shearer, if you are still wanting the title changed to Armenian genocide dispute, would you either put up or shut up. By put up, I mean put up the appropriate tags that are needed to initiate a proper proposal and a proper discussion. I repeatedly asked you to do this after your earlier renaming edit war. If you are not interested in doing this, then really you are just wasting your time repeatedly mentioning it. Meowy 19:18, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

My perception is that: Philip Baird Shearer could not find enough votes. He could not even passed the value of his argument to Meowy. There are thousands of Meowy which will vote to keep the title as "denial." In the reality, the term "denial," is a POV word, which should not be used. If you look at the history of the article same issue seems to be raised every couple years. As long as Meowy perceive this as a quest of a national war, rather than an quest to search for the truth of his past; the word "debate" is unacceptable. "Debate" implies there is a question regarding his genocide.--Kemalist (talk) 19:44, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

Seems that Kemalist likes my user name! Philip Baird Shearer got no votes because he did not ask for any, he has refused to insert the proper move proposing template that would enable him to get votes. Meowy 01:40, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

Can you answer one question, why don't we do the same with the Holocaust related articles then? Are you saying that in the case of the Holocaust there are only those who either deny it or recognize it and that no individual or state has a position which recognizes the crimes of the Holocaust but not state intent of genocide? Isn't that your argument here?-- Ευπάτωρ 15:22, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

In "Holocaust," the questions Who, Whom, Where, How, Why are clearly defined. In Armenian genocide, if you look at the wikipedia article, these terms do not have clear answers. The basic issue regarding why there is this debate (you call it as denial): "No one questions if the Ottoman Empire passed the Tehcir Law, but "How" they were moved, "Where" were they moved, "How" many of them moved." All these questions have clear answers in the Holocaust question. Jews use Hitlers archives. They do not need to invent numbers and cases. Why there are no answers in Armenian case? This is clearly a good question. Why do not accept the records at Ottoman Empire Archive? Why keeping it under shadow? Armenian sources do not even accept the ottoman census values. If we look at Ottoman Archives, we would also see how much destruction Armenian's inflicted in the region. Without recognition of the total destruction, it is easy to blame the opposite. It is easy to close your eyes and say "Intent was extermination of Armenians" rather than use other more plausible explanations --Kemalist (talk) 19:29, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

The total destruction was recognized even by Bundestag in Germany. We do not need to do original research here. The Armenian Genocide is a widely accepted fact. Gazifikator (talk) 04:18, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

widely accepted doesn't mean correct. With both sides denying eachother this will remain a political conflict rather than a historical one. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.99.135.63 (talk) 17:52, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

There is not a "both sides", there is accepted history and there is a minority view that conflicts with the majority view; the minority view is held by groups and individuals who contest that accepted history. Of course it is not a "historical" conflict in the sense that it is still on-going, but it is a conflict over historical events. Meowy 23:46, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

Accepted history doesn't mean correct either. Majority and minority are subjective terms. Also if it was accepted history there would be no other side, definitely it is not accepted history. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.99.135.63 (talk) 19:59, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

Just that Majority and minority views are NOT subjective terms but guidelines for editing WP according to WP:UNDUE--Termer (talk) 05:07, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

If there are not two sides then why do you support having two article "recognition of the Armenian Genocide" (RAG) and "denial of the Armenian Genocide" (DAG)? --Philip Baird Shearer (talk) 18:24, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

Kemalist what are you expecting from this guys? Their history is based on this lies and propaganda so of course they won't except the reality and will still try to sell their lost independce war as a genocide. They invest millions of dollars in their propaganda so it is self-evident that they will get some results of that. Or they make it just in the Internet (like here on Misplaced Pages) where they can do it for less money or even for free. It's always the same with this nationalistic guys ... especially the ones living in the Diaspora. The two words they use are genocide and denial and they are always the same guys investing their whole time for spreading their Propaganda. There was never a genocide and will never be one made by Turks. A normal person not brainwashed by this kind of propaganda won't talk about anything like a genocide in this case. Comparisons to something like Holocaust where a genocide happened is a piece of impudence.

Kemalist you have to understand that their religion and culture is based on compassion if you watch at the history of the Christians you will see it everywhere. One of there weapons in this way was always their propaganda made by them own and this kind of weapon won't change in the future. It is a fact that they think that their culture is like the one of others. They always make the same mistake. They think when they kill people just because of their religion or their nationality others would have make it like they did. But there isn't anything like that as you won't find anything like that in Turkish history. They should stop to compare their own culture with their pathetic and pitiful Propaganda with some other cultures or nations. Why do they always have to do this in a extreme? So you don't have to wonder why some Assyrians and Pontic Greeks are talking about the same funny things as they have the same culture and religion and of course live with the same complexes about that issue. I said it once before maybe the Turks should also get something in here on Misplaced Pages and try to sell this kind of propaganda as a Turkish genocide made by Armenians. And of course the ones who will be against it are the one crying here that it was a genocide. Hundred thousands of Turks died in the same way Armenians died. But you won't find any Turk who will make the causes and some crimes of the Armenians a genocide. If that what Armenians and others here are claming and categorizing to be a genocide than you can say the same about what happened to the Turks. It's just that easy.

You can't except a neutral position which is based on a lie. Most of the world doesn't see it as a genocide and where it is accepted it was a job by the Armenian lobby or some other Christian propaganda making persons. Look just at the countries who and when the few countries so called recognise it and you will understand it. No serious court has made a judgment about it so what are the guys here talking about? The only widely acceptance is in some dream worlds and dreams but not in the reality.

Just because you Armenians and some of your Christian friends like for example some nationalistic Greeks are repeating your lies again and again your myth won't get true.

You won't find anything like this in a serious encyclopedia but unfortunately this article will be soonest deleted when a joint commission of historians will tell the world that this was not and will never be a genocide. But I'm not wondering that even this kind of commision is avoided by the Armenian Diaspora ... maybe the truth would come out! Even if the truth (for the ones who still believe it was a genocide) comes out I'm sure they have their excuses ready. So my advice for you Kemalist don't take this guys so serious as every troll (like before on this issue) on Misplaced Pages can write something. Just look at the rules of Misplaced Pages and what you can get through. Unfortunately also some Admins have taken position so you have no other way than that or you have to invest time in endless discussions which have no meaning.

You will see that some of this guys who jump from one to another article about this so called genocide issues will give an irrelevant and unsubstantial reply to my answer just like in the issues about the two fictive genocide issues about Assyrians and Pontic Greeks before. P223 (talk) 15:10, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

I bet P223 feels much better now after getting all that off his chest. Meowy 20:34, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

I think the same. He must feel great right know just like the Armenians when they talk about this kind of issues. Why I'm not wondering that you are the one replying?

And your two other friends will follow soon ... Thank you! :) --P223 (talk) 21:49, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

Vandalism of Bibliography

What is the difference between Hitler burning books and Armenian editors deleting the references (associated as burning electronic books) given in this article.--Domino Theories (talk) 14:51, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

why to not try to stop this cheap sentiments and write your texts for the denialist forums not Misplaced Pages? btw can you show me a fact when an "Armenian editor deleted any references in this article"? in contrary, its you who delete the list of bibliography, are you an Armenian?Gazifikator (talk) 12:58, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

Statements like "TaleArmTale" is a position which questions the reliability of the person giving the facts is as important as the facts themselves. This is a WP:POV act. Renaming bibliography (references) as TaleArmTale and creating a non-standard section "Denialist propaganda" by replacing standard WP:style section is not an appropriate behavior. I 'm sure this point was missed by you, and you won't be objecting the correction of the section titles according to the appropriate "headings." I hope there is no objection of removing wordings that violates WP:NPOV.--Domino Theories (talk) 13:42, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

NPOV issues

Only after having read the introduction I already felt that this article was suffering from some serious NPOV issues. It seems awfully biased towards the whole "It was genocide. End of." view, when there isn't even any consensus on the events. Runningfridgesrule (talk) 23:01, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

Is there, like, some factory in Turkey that just churns out you denialists like candy bars, hands you a computer, and tells you to go on Misplaced Pages?--Marshal Bagramyan (talk) 23:31, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

I suggest you Armenians actually provide evidence of consensus before making such stupid remarks. Runningfridgesrule (talk) 11:23, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

I suggest you get over your racial bigotry and quit generalizing everyone that disagrees with you as "Armenian". --Kansas Bear (talk) 14:53, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

I suggest you shut your face and end your double standards, considering that what Marshal Bagramyan said was ten times worse. Anyway, enough of the bitching, let's actually get back to the point. Runningfridgesrule (talk) 15:50, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

Typical childish insults. --Kansas Bear (talk) 16:32, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

Oh the irony... Anyway, if you want to be a dick then please take you and your big mouth somewhere else, because I actually want to discuss things that really matter rather than having the subject changed all because someone has too much time on their hands and has nothing better to do than disrupt any NPOV-related issues on Armenia-related articles (unfortunately this isn't the only time I've had the pleasure of dealing with you). Runningfridgesrule (talk) 17:33, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

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• NA-importance Armenian pages
• WikiProject Armenia articles
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