Misplaced Pages

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This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the What Misplaced Pages is not page.

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Misplaced Pages is not a Movie, Book or TV Guide

I propose that the section WP:NOT#GUIDE be amended such that it is explicitly stated that Misplaced Pages is not a Movie, Book or TV Guide. There is already a prohibition on articles & lists comprised only of guides WP:NOT#GUIDE and plot summary in WP:NOT#PLOT, so now is the time to make it explicit that media listings that do not contain analysis, context or criticism are unencyclopedic, and fall outside the scope of Misplaced Pages. The amendment would read as follows:

Misplaced Pages is not a Movie, Book or TV Guide. Articles and lists of movies, books or television titles should be treated in an encyclopedic manner, not simply as a record of everything that has ever been distributed or broadcast in the media. Such articles and lists should provide analysis, context or criticism, regarding the reception, impact and development of notable works (see also Misplaced Pages:Manual of Style (writing about fiction)).

The reasons for this proposed ammendment are two fold:

• Firstly Misplaced Pages is not a record of everything under the sun; a topic or group of topics need to broadly demonstrate some sort of notability for inclusion within Misplaced Pages mainspace as an article or list;
• Secondly there should be some precaution taken against spam to explicitly prevent the listing non-notable movies, books or TV series/episodes by film distributers, book publishers and broadcasters, who have a strong incentive to list all of their products on Misplaced Pages together with flap or DVD cover type summaries of their content.

To some extent there is already a large but random body of movies, books and TV series/episodes being listed on Misplaced Pages which do not demonstrate notability or contain any encyclopedic content. For instance there are extensive lists of television episodes that duplicate TV guides and listings published in the press and internet sites such as TVGuide.com. There are also many publishers whose works are listed, relisted and listed again under different covers, such as Penguin Classics, Penguin Great Ideas, Penguin Celebrations, which are little more that a duplication of the their back catalogue.

The justification for such articles and lists being created is that although they do not offer any encyclopedic content, there is no explicit prohibition. I cannot see the value of such lists even if is no limit to the quantity of random stuff that can be added to Misplaced Pages. I think we should make it explicit that such listings on their own are not encyclopedic, since they offer no real-world context. --Gavin Collins (talk) 09:30, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

There is indeed encyclopedic content. The issue is that there are editors who seem to have an opinion on what they consider to be "trivia". Consider that everything in an encyclopedia is trivia.

So it all seems to come down to subjective preference for inclusion.

Strong oppose. - jc37 09:48, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

Strong Oppose: Per jc37. - NeutralHomer • Talk • October 14, 2008 @ 10:29

Oppose Good lists of episodes are encyclopedic. They are sourced, offer real world context (viewing figures, airdates). They do not simply duplicate TV listings. Of course, the younger, less developed ones might, but you could say the same about non-popular culture articles. The Misplaced Pages philosophy is supposed to be openness, accessibility. Narrowing the goal posts is going to piss people off, which will harm the project. The JPS 10:35, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

Strong oppose per Jc37 and the JPS. I've personally learned a lot from articles like the ones you're trying to ban and I know others have too. Abyssal (talk) 10:38, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

Strong support with one exception. I get the feeling that the opposers read the title, but not the content. Requiring all articles about fiction to contain some analysis is eminently reasonable. Requiring it of lists is probably unrealistic. I can see the argument, but you might as well tie a cannonball to the legs of this pigeon.—Kww(talk) 11:54, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

Oppose not only for the reasons above, but also for the fact that claiming that articles that lack analysis or critical commentary should not be on WP. There are articles that are just facts (most of our geography ones), and to apply a higher standard to these media articles to any other type of article is inappropriate (we already ahve WP:NOT#PLOT to provide some guidance on how these go) Furthermore, since some individual episodes, books, etc are notable, there is no reason why we cannot at least mention briefly (but not giving them their own article) all the other ones. --MASEM 11:57, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

Comment. WP:NOT#PLOT seems to be concerned with written fiction. But there is already a guideline, WP:EPISODE, that fully addresses this.—Largo Plazo (talk) 12:07, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

Oppose. It's useful to have such lists as indexes to shows and episodes. Even paper encyclopedias have indexes. Squidfryerchef (talk) 12:47, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

Strong support with Kww's exception - This is the kind of chaff that makes us a laughingstock (along with American sports über-trivia); although book catalogs are the least of the problem. Why should we host multi-paragraph guides to the details of every episode of Frasier or SpongeBob Squarepants ever broadcast? --Orange Mike | Talk 14:00, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

Why not? Why should we pander to a particular cultural judgment? Indeed, isn't that subjectivity dissuaded on Misplaced Pages. The truth is that, for many, Misplaced Pages itself and its editors are laughingstocks. The same people who would criticise the articles you mention would also laugh at us for wasting our lives having this type of discussion. The JPS 18:27, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

How is "the use of a separate article for each and every episode of each and every program that has ever been on television is a waste of space" a cultural judgment? As is made abundantly clear in the policies and guidelines, the community's efforts to keep Misplaced Pages a useful and practical resource and not an archive that is unaffordable and unmaintainable and/or a duplicate minute details that are already available elsewhere are not "the subjectivity dissuaded on Misplaced Pages". (Why would people who would criticize the kinds of articles we're talking about laugh at people having a discussion to keep out these kinds of articles?) —Largo Plazo (talk) 18:46, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

Sorry, I was referring to people outside of the project. This whole thing stinks of a right-wing elitist agenda and I'm disgusted that a democratic project is being contaminated by this cultural prejudice. The JPS 19:06, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

Right-wing? My various friends, comrades and fellow workers would be stunned to hear it! --Orange Mike | Talk 19:20, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

Hehe. Well, yeah, from a socio-cultural perspective.... The JPS 20:17, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

Likewise. (Well, with respect to the "friends being surprised" part, ignoring the articles you chose to hyperlink to.) Can we please skip the tactic of branding everything we disagree with as relating to the side of the political spectrum opposite to the one with which we identify?—Largo Plazo (talk) 20:57, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

Oppose. Yes, I read the title, and I vote against the title and the content and the new round of burning the books that will follow. There's more than enough censorship already. NVO (talk) 18:55, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

A couple of you seem to be confusing censorship (restriction of contributions according to opinion expressed) with keeping order. Not allowing people to stand up in a movie theater and deliver a speech during the main feature isn't censorship.—Largo Plazo (talk) 20:57, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

Oppose Seeing how often I use episode lists for legitimate non-fan research reasons, I strongly oppose this. Even de.wikipedia, which has a very strong anti-cruft stand against fiction, allows Lists of episodes, so disallowing them on en.wikipedia is simply overkill. – sgeureka 20:27, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

Is everyone overlooking where I pointed out that the guidelines whose supposed creation is being discussed already exist at WP:EPISODE, so this discussion is moot?—Largo Plazo (talk) 20:58, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

This would be policy if it got consensus, not guideline, so it would have sharper teeth.—Kww(talk) 21:20, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

AFAIK all the Notability articles are guidelines, so WP:EPISODE is as strong as any of them.—Largo Plazo (talk) 21:39, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

Yes, but KWW is saying that the issue here is that WP:NOT is a policy, so this discussion is policy-level, not guideline level (as with the notability guidelines) and thus will have more impact than WP:EPISODE could. Indeed, it could override WP:EPISODE, should it have stronger outcomes. This is unlikely, though. - Bilby (talk) 23:33, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

Strong Opposie as well. Misplaced Pages has become the best and most well known resource to read about movies and books in places others than the US A here in Brasil. Please dont pull the plug on this. Thank you, FFDiempredome (talk) 23:25, 14 October 2008 (UTC) FFDiempredome (talk) 23:25, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

Oppose, WP:NOT#PLOT never had consensus to be added to this policy. So basing another addition to this policy on that is crazy. See, the funny thing about the word "guide" is that you can add it onto anything. Is Misplaced Pages a poker guide? Why of course not! But then why are all these poker articles here? Is Misplaced Pages a zoo guide? Why of course not! But then why are all these animal articles here? Is Misplaced Pages a guide to the galaxy? Why of course not! But then what's this Galaxy article doing here? And the proposal assumes that "movie guides" do not provide "analysis, context or criticism, regarding the reception, impact, and development" of movies. Huh? Gavin, how about "Misplaced Pages is not a guide to cricket clubs"? This is a list of things Misplaced Pages is not. So the attempts to insert text that says "every article needs this and this" should stop, unless someone wants to make Misplaced Pages:Things articles need to have and add it there. --Pixelface (talk) 05:54, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

• I think a clear intellectual point is being missed here. Of course you can have articles and lists on films, books and movies, provided the topics are notable, and this proposal make this clear. However, articles and lists that are drawn soley from the primary sources (like plot summaries) don't meet the other content policies of Misplaced Pages, and I think this is a key point that is being missed or ignored by opponents to this proposal, and maybe I need to make this clearer. What has not been explained by opponents of this proposal is why a list of non-notable episodes should be listed on Misplaced Pages, anymore than say a list on non-notable street numbers. There is clearly a difference between an encyclopedia and a telephone directory, and I am not sure this difference is understood. --Gavin Collins (talk) 08:15, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

• A list of telephone numbers or street addresses has little scholarly value as part of an encyclopedia. A list of episodes, on the other hand, does have some. The other point to consider is that there are a good proportion of notable episodes and other such elements out there - not a majority, certainly, but not a trivial number either. This doesn't mean that every episode is immediately notable or needs its own article, but it does suggest that brief coverage of all episodes/elements in some fashion is appropriate. --MASEM 11:59, 15 October 2008 (UTC)
• A list of episodes will only have scholarly value if it cites reliable secondary sources. If a list is of scholarly interest, then scholars will have studied it, and written about it, which is why the inclusion criteria in WP:N says that a topic is presumend notable if a it has received significant coverage in reliable secondary sources. There are notable television episodes, but not all are, and that is the cutoff point for inclusion. --Gavin Collins (talk) 13:08, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

• Information can be scholarly without having secondary sources: we have tables of facts and figures that are scholarly that meet two policy requirements: they are indiscriminate and they are verifyable. In the case of episode lists, they are also scholarly for those that study modern culture and social sciences; just because they aren't for you doesn't mean they aren't for someone else. We of course can't go into significant detail about topics that don't have secondary work (that is, having its own dedicated article) but we can provide shorthand information that is consistent with all other WP coverage. --MASEM 13:27, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

• Information can be scholarly without having secondary sources, but not encyclopedic, as it lacks analysis, criticism and context. For instance, many magazines, newspapers and TV guides provide such infomation about movies everyday, but do not necessarily provide the analysis that readers of an encyclopedia seek. Information, such as TV guides, may be studied by scholars, but Misplaced Pages would not be their primary source; to do so would be to obtain such information third hand. There is no need for Misplaced Pages to list non-notable infomation, as it can be obtained first hand elsewhere, such as IMDb. The point I am making is that WP is not a first-call primary source for information about movies, books and TV titles; how could it be? --Gavin Collins (talk) 14:11, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

• But we're more than just an encyclopedia; we include elements of specialized encyclopedias and almanacs and certainly in terms of the last part, almanacs rarely contain secondary source coverage. We don't want to be the end-all informational works (from the free content mission, we really can't be) but there is absolutely no harm in being the first-call source using redirects to lists or larger articles when people are searching for these things; we should be allowing people to search on episode titles, minor character names, or fictional locations and find out the notable work they are associated with easily. --MASEM 15:20, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

• On the contrary, Misplaced Pages is not a Gazette or Almanac, as the inclusion criteria for these publications is not based on notability. Traditionally such publications would be where you might look to find out when high tide is at your local port, and a TV guide is a similar type of publication; their subject matter falls outside the scope of Misplaced Pages. Establishing a cut-off between what is to be included in Misplaced Pages can be established from the GNG, not whether or not it would cause "absolutely no harm". --Gavin Collins (talk) 15:40, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

• According to WP's mission, we have elements of almanacs. Sure, listing the time of tides is highly indiscriminate, but there are other aspects that aren't. Listing a TV show's episodes is not - it a bounded list with a very specific inclusion criteria. They have been shown to be acceptable by numerous AFDs, and would fall into the acceptable type of lists based on the RFC. At this point, you seem to be fighting against the clear demonstration that certain types of lists are allowable, this proposal for NOT being one way to counter it, but the consensus is clearly not for this approach. Non-notable article, yes - I think we agree that's an issue, but non-notable lists under certain constraints is a reasonable compromise between two extremes. --MASEM 15:46, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

• What are the "very specific inclusion criteria" you are refering to? I don't see any clause in WP:N that allows the inclusion of topics that are not notable? I see no exemption given to television episodes of unproven notability. I see no evidence of consensus at policy or guideline level for this approach at all. --Gavin Collins (talk) 10:36, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

• There are no specific inclusion criteria nor any specific directive towards lists because we haven't had any opportunity yet to define them - only that the RFC is clear that such need to be set first before stating that such lists are ok. At the same time, there is no existing policy or guideline that explicitly forbids them either. Given that the RFC is in favor of allowing lists under specific criteria, it's a matter of figuring out that framework first, making sure that we're well aware of what's already stated in NOT and other policies. --MASEM 12:50, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

• If there no specific inclusion criteria that exempt lists from any Misplaced Pages policies or guidelines, then you can be sure that Movie, Book or TV Guides based on primary sources are not exempt either. I can see why you might want to have episode lists as a special case because TV guides are a familiar subject matter to all of us, but as their inclusion conflicts with exisiting policies and guidelines, I don't see how you can justify them on any other grounds other than WP:ILIKEIT: If your favourite song/computer game/webcomic/whatever is as great as you believe, someone will likely write about it eventually, so please just be patient. --Gavin Collins (talk) 13:35, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

• The reason they don't exist is that we have yet to create them based on the input from the RFC; the fact that there is nothing against such lists in policies or guidelines is that we've never gotten to a point where this is a recognized solution to compromise on topics. Just because a policy or guideline doesn't exist for something doesn't mean its not allowable or disallowable - just that nothing formal has been written down about it, and the best advice is to see what has been there through consensus and discussion, which both AFD results and the RFC point to as allowing this practice. We just have to codify what consensus points to. --MASEM 13:51, 16 October 2008 (UTC)
• It's really beyond that in this case, Gavin, and you know my stance on this kind of thing. The de-facto exclusion for "list of episodes" and "list of characters" may not be codified anywhere (which annoys me to no end, because people won't even write down the things that there is widespread agreement on), but it's real. It's one of the few compromises that has come out of the whole episodes and characters debates. I agree with you that they don't meet policies and guidelines, and that they really shouldn't exist. However, I recognize that while you think that and I think that, we are in a very, very, very small group. Continuing to hammer on lists will prevent anyone from making progress anywhere on this front.—Kww(talk) 13:58, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

• Lists of fictional characters are definetly prohibited by WP:NOT#DIR, so no such exclusion exists for them at policy level. Whether you call such articles lists or not, they amount to the very much the same thing: listcruft. These type of articles come up for deletion all the time, e.g. Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Other Rangers and Ranger-like allies (2nd nomination).
  As regards lists of episodes, I see no evidence of an exemption for them or other types of list in any subject area; I think this is an example of an editorial "walled garden" in the making. You might be mistaking special pleading for "consensus", as there there is no specific justification in any of the episode debates I have read. Whilst WP:EPISODE contains the presumption that it is quite likely that sources can be found to support a series or season page, no exemption is claimed per se. --Gavin Collins (talk) 12:58, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

• How does a list of fictional characters or a list of episodes fail the first part of WP:NOT#DIR (the only one that applies):

• Lists or repositories of loosely associated topics such as (but not limited to) quotations, aphorisms, or persons (real or fictional). If you want to enter lists of quotations, put them into our sister project Wikiquote. Of course, there is nothing wrong with having lists if their entries are famous because they are associated with or significantly contributed to the list topic, for example Nixon's Enemies List. Misplaced Pages also includes reference tables and tabular information for quick reference. Merged groups of small articles based on a core topic are certainly permitted. (See Lists (stand alone lists) - appropriate topics for clarification.) (emphasis mine)

• I can agree that "Fictional characters with hats" is a loosely associated list, and thus indiscriminate and unneeded, but '"List of characters in TV show X" is not. And even then, the last sentence pretty much says that lists of characters and episodes are completely appropriate. Yes, there are bad lists of characters that are created, but not every list is deleted, meaning there is some unstated acceptable level for these. --MASEM 13:12, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

• I think you are being a little to kind in your description of lists that are compiled from primary sources to form a synthesis that this propsal is directed at prohibiting. Describing "List of characters in TV show X" as discriminate is ignoring the fact that such lists are neither complete nor accurately categorised, and they are generally better described as "List of some of the characters in TV show X that may have appeared in some of the episodes". To be defensible against accusations of original research (as well as lack of completeness or incorrect categorization), such lists should cite a reliable secondary sources; those that don't are just random stuff. Misplaced Pages has stronger inclusion criteria than, say, Wookipeida. You may recall that I gave an example relating to synthesis of Star Wars characters that appeared in a sequence of books described as The New Jedi Order (which is itself a synthesis); you can see what happens to such list by going to Talk:List_of_New_Order_Jedi_characters#Redirect. Your suggestion that WP:NOT#DIR can be applied loosely is your own interpretation; I think you missing the fact that lists of fictional characters are random if they are not sourced reliable secondary source. --Gavin Collins (talk) 14:18, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

• WP:OR and WP:V require reliable sources, but do not require reliable secondary sources. Lists of characters and episodes can be legitimately sourced to primary works; care has to be taken to avoid OR, but it is quite doable, particularly when lists generally limit characters to one to two paragraphcs at most. And we know that the list of New Order Jedi is a bad example, you keep bringing it up. There are plenty of other lists of characters that are not indiscriminate and are sourced; the list itself does not need notable to be kept based on general AFD results and the notability RFC. Again, what in WP:NOT#DIR explicitly disallows lists of characters or lists of episodes? --MASEM 14:29, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

• In answer to Masem, the problem is I don't think that you will be able to find an example of Lists of characters and episodes that is not either original research or synthesis, which is why the prohibition above is so important.
  In fairness to me, List of New Order Jedi characters was an example I was using before it was merged, which is what I see happening to these types of lists eventually. Another classic example of listcruft is List of Star Wars characters itself, which is clearly a synthesis of so many different sources that it is almost meaningless. To fans of Star Wars, this may appear to be a discriminate list, but this assumption is based on an in universe perspective that views all fictional characters as if they were defined by a fictional setting; in reality these are fictional characters, which have been drawn together from different sources, authors, films, grpahic novels and cartoons have no real world commonality, other than George Lucas may have earned a penny or two from their francise at some time in the past. I think where I have to say I have a radically different viewpoint from Masem is that I am not looking through these lists of characters and episodes from an in universe perspective. If you can free yourself from this mindset, you will recognise that the only an encyclopedic methodology that should be applied to these characters, and that involves disgarding non-notable topics and restore the focus of Misplaced Pages to content which can be used to write (and even lists) that are based on reliable secondary sources, rather than on the objective of turning Misplaced Pages into a Star Wars Guide. I have no objection to Star Wars per se (it is one of my favorite film series as a teenager), but what I do object to is random lists of stuff being dumped in Misplaced Pages, which is what you seem to be proposing.--Gavin Collins (talk) 16:37, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

• I'm sorry Gavin, but I've been meaning to ask you the same question Masem has been asking. I accept that you see these lists as synthesis or OR. I don't agree with you, but that's not the concern at the moment. The concern here is that I can't see anything in WP:NOT#DIR that relates to these lists of characters and episodes. Indeed, I had assumed that you started this thread because you felt that WP:Not should be modifed so that it does encompass them, which suggests to me that it doesn't do so as things stand. - Bilby (talk) 16:49, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

• If you don't agree with me, then what are they? The word brought from the Mount by Moses, per chance? I respect your right to disagree, but on what basis? If these lists are not original research or synthesis, then what are they? --Gavin Collins (talk) 17:39, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

• I don't have any real hassle with us disagreeing on this. :) I'm just curious about how you saw WP:Not applying, as I can't see the connection. In my case, though, if they aren't OR or synthesis, then they can just be a way of ordering content. Perhaps non-notable in their own right, but that's a different issue. - Bilby (talk) 11:49, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

• I am not following you, either. My propsoal above sets out why Misplaced Pages is not a TV guide - it is not sufficient just to include stuff because it is ordered into a list. Are you suggesting that just because a list is ordered, this is the inclusion criteria which you would to it? If not, what is your inclusion criteria for lists of episodes and characters? --Gavin Collins (talk) 15:34, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

• If there was no issue on size, then a notable television show article, which would include the history of the show, production notes, reception, etc. etc would include in the same article the list of major and recurring characters and the list of episodes (both with tightly limited amounts of text per character/entry) per comprehensiveness and completeness; this is no way a violation of PLOT, and V/NOR/NPOV are also met as well as WP:N (since it does not limit article content). Without these, articles would typically be considered incomplete (there are cases where a list of episodes is impractical such as game shows and soaps - in the latter case where overarching list of seasons make more sense). But we do have size issues, and thus the two parts that make the most sense to separate out to a new article are the list of characters and list of episodes. Sometimes these can be expanded upon further to make them notable, but they are still part of the notable television show's full coverage. Thus, the reason for inclusion is that they are necessary to augment a show's comprehensive coverage. Going the next step, providing expanded coverage of each character or episode is where we would run afoul of being just a fan guide, presuming that not notable information exists for the character or element - this type of expanded coverage would not be part of a single TV show article (ignoring size), and thus should not be part of what WP provides. The same can be applied to other works of fiction. --MASEM 16:06, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

• So lets be clear what Masem is asserting: provided that a television series is notable (e.g. the long running series Guiding Light), then spinout articles about that series which do not demonstrate notability should be allowed to be included in Misplaced Pages (e.g. Guiding Light (1980–1989)), provided that they include lists of characters, episodes and production notes.
  I disagree with Masem's approach on two grounds, namely that spinout articles that do not cite reliable secondary sources cannot inherit notability and should be merged into the main article, but also it is not possible to write an article that does not fall foul of Misplaced Pages's content policies unless it contains reliable secondary sources that provide analysis, context or criticism. For instance, the article Guiding Light (1980–1989) demonstrates this perfectly: although it is not all plot summary, its content simply replicates the TV guide from which it is drawn. The opinions, analysis and context provided by the article are taken from the producers of the show, CBS, and therefore fail WP:NPOV. Note of the information about the characters, episodes or production notes have not been fact-checked by a reliable secondary source. This article is just a regurgitation of the primary source, and although the information that this article contains may be discriminate (in that it makes sense), it is not encyclopedic, because it is biased, may be factually incorrect and does not treat its subject matter from a real world perspecitive. Simply put, Guiding Light (1980–1989) is a content fork from the article Guiding Light. Clearly this is the wrong way to expand the coverage of the over arching subject; basically this is just a lot of cruft. Misplaced Pages is not a Movie, Book or TV Guide, and this content belongs on elsewhere, such as TVGuide.com, unless reliable secondary sources can be added to the article. --Gavin Collins (talk) 16:16, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

• There is absolutely nothing wrong with expansion of facts summarized from primary sources without secondary sources as long as the WP editors do not engage in OR or POVism; this is perfectly acceptable per WP:PSTS. CBS cannot be considered biased as they are the primary source of the work, so there's no NPOV issues to deal with. Now, I do look at the article and seem it is long-winded in plot and seems crufty, however, this is a daily soap opera and covering 10 years of shows (more than 1000 episodes); while we would normally want an episode list, that is completely impractical, and this method of summarizing each year is perfectly fine. Again, if size wasn't an issue, a reasonable article on the soap would have each of these decade summaries embedded in the main article along with the notable information on production and reception. However, it is easy to see it will get too long (well over a meg of data) so splitting them off is a completely logical solution. --MASEM 16:28, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

• Your viewpoint in this instance is not supported by Misplaced Pages policies and guidelines, particularly your statement that "there nothing wrong with expansion of facts expansion of facts summarized from primary sources without secondary sources", by which you mean the creation of non-notable spinout articles. Clearly if a spinout is not notable, it will fail WP:N, whilst a primary source being used for analysis, context or critism, particularly where the broadcaster of the series has a commercial interest in the TV series in question, is not appropriate since using CBS as a source for its own series must be viewed as biased. Clearly TV guides type articles such as Guiding Light (1980–1989) are little more than duplications of CBS own marketing. Such entries may be suitable for TVGuide.com, but not for Misplaced Pages. The article is article and seem it is long-winded in plot and seems crufty which is the nature of TV guides; they have lower inclusion criteria than Misplaced Pages. Splitting this article and then splitting it again into more and more content forks is not a logical solution; merger with the over-arching notable topic (with a generous pruning) is the answer. --Gavin Collins (talk) 19:26, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

• Several fallacies at this point:
  • WP:N applies to topics, not articles. Only notable topics should have articles, but that does not mean that articles must be about notable topics. That's not saying that spinouts are acceptable (the RFC showed this), but clearly the RFC shows there's a place for non-notable spinouts of material that would otherwise be included in the main article as part of the coverage of the work that otherwise hits size issues.
  • It is a long-standard agreement that primary sources are sufficient to source plot summaries as part of coverage of the fictional work (including appropriate sources for notability); secondary sources are great if they can be found, but that's not available. A well-written plot summary is not analysis or criticism of the work (they can be written as such but most experienced fiction editors know how to avoid this), and thus are not OR or POV. If you believe that plot summaries anywhere need secondary sources, then you'd better start going through every FA and GA fictional work article and tag those sections as such.
  • Summarizing the plot from the direct source (CBS in the example given) is not a POV violation. Again, no analysis or criticism is being introduced into the summary, so the facts of the occurrences of the fictional work by it's publisher is a perfectly acceptable source. This is different from, if for the criticism section of an article, we cited CBS saying "This is the best show on television", since they are biased to its success.
  • Your logic about the article being CBS's marketing leads to the conclusion that talking about any commercial product (fictional work or tangible retail item) can be considered the same, which is obviously not the case. In every case, NPOV is the policy that prevents a page about a commercial product from being a marketing blurb. We still have to discuss features and distinguishing aspects of a product; this may use primary sources (manufacture's specifications) in addition to secondary sources, but this is again a neutral discussion; only until you say "well, this is better than this other product..." is when you need to pull in secondary sources to prevent POV. In the case of the Guiding Light article, there is no attempt to say why this show is better than others or otherwise market the show, and thus there's no POV issues.
  • Content forks explicitly state that spun-off material due to length does not constitute a content fork. (We still need to be careful that the material spunoff, however, is appropriate for a spinoff per the RFC on notability)
• Now, I'm not saying the given article is top notch or a perfect example - it is wordy and inadequately sourced and a mess to read. But, in lieu of an episode list for 1000+ shows, a summary per season (and grouped by decade) makes much more sense.
• Again, I cannot understand what you have against these lists. Would you agree or disagree that in a single complete article about a notable television show that an episode list as part of that article is appropriate? Given that individual episodes for some shows can be notable, to remove any bias, it seems perfectly appropriate to allow other shows that cannot show notability for individual episodes to at least list them out and describe them briefly; it's the compromise we need to make.
• I get a strong sense that you are unhappy with the results of the RFC that point to the support for the allowance for non-notable, specifically crafted lists and spinouts (to be determined via consensus before allowing such formally), and that you are forum shopping to prevent that from going through. Yes, there are many many bad non-notable spunout lists, but there are also a smaller, but not trivial, number of good, encyclopedic ones. That situation is correctable without burning all of them down, it just needs to be written in a precise manner as allowable by a guideline so that it is clear what lists are good, and what lists are not good. Years have shown there is a place for these on WP, and the RFC shows that they are not going away any time soon. You have to come to the realization that your stance is not in congruence with the consensus of the RFC and that either you need to work to compromise with those that want lots of fiction coverage by meeting somewhere in the middle (the whole point of allowing non-notable lists), or otherwise your input demanding your viewpoint will be ignored. At this point, I know I can't convince you any more, all I can ask is that you realize you are failing to compromise. --MASEM 20:19, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

• I am glad that you agree that only notable topics should have their own articles. In the case of Guiding Light (1980–1989), there is no evidence that the topic is notable as not one reliable secondary source has been cited in the article to demonstrate that the series Guiding Light was notable during this period. This is precisely the type of TV Guide type article that proposal seeks to prohibit because the article does not contain any encyclopedic content. In fairness, if reliable secondary sources could be added, then it would no longer fail WP:NOT.
  Whilst I agree with you that primary sources are sufficient to source plot summaries, they cannot be relied upon as the only source for an article as is the case here. The fact that there is information about the characters and produciton notes does not improve the situation: it is just more primary content being added, without demonstration of notability for the topic.
  In the case of the article Guiding Light (1980–1989), you are correct in saying that there is no attempt to say why this show is better than others or otherwise market the show, because to do so would require a reliable secondary source to allow such a point of view to be expressed. However, the article is still biased because the article content is drawn from one source (CBS); to say that it is not biased is like saying a court case where only the prosecution is allowed to speak is fair as long as their arguments are balanced; this argument is a fallacy. Simply put, an article about a TV show written from the perspective of its broadcaster is not written from an independent persective. This is a problem shared by all TV Guide type articles; they are not independent of their subject matter.
  Your statement that "Content forks explicitly state that spun-off material due to length does not constitute a content fork" is a half-truth; you omit to mention that the article that contains the spun-off material should also demonstrate notability of its subject matter. As the article Guiding Light (1980–1989) does not provide any evidence of notability for this topic, it must be viewed as a content fork from the over arching subject Guiding Light. This is a major problem with the overall approach to this television series: it has been sliced and diced into various content forks, but why the period 1980–1989 was chosen over 1980–1990, I have no idea (perhaps each series covered a calendar year, rather than a season?).
  Your accusation that I have something against TV Guide articles is not relevant to the discussion; what is clear is that TV Guide type articles do not meet Misplaced Pages guidelines and policies - only articles that demonstrate the notability of a particular topic can. My proposal is designed to clarify this issue to people like yourself whose thinking is not clear on this issue: Misplaced Pages is an encylopedia, not a Movie, Book or TV Guide. --Gavin Collins (talk) 09:50, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

• There are hundreds of books which might be used to source article about Guiding Light, as you'd expect for the longest-running soap opera in the world. Since there's lots to say about such a subject, it is no surprise that there is a sub-article about a particular decade of its history. Since such articles exist and have a readership which outweighs the handful of nay-sayers here, it is a plain fact that Misplaced Pages comprises such material and asserting the contrary would be a falsehood. You have no mandate to outlaw it as it is our policy that Misplaced Pages is not governed by statute and so its "policies and guidelines are descriptive, not prescriptive". Your attempts to legislate are therefore illegitimate. Colonel Warden (talk) 20:21, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

• I don't disagree with you that there are lots of books which could be used as source articles for the article Guiding Light. However, there is no evidence that the topic Guiding Light (1980–1989) is itself notable, as the article has been created from a synthesis of primary sources: in fact it is is a content fork. In the world of TV Guides, writing an article based on synthesis is perfectly acceptable, but since Misplaced Pages has more rigorous content policies than, say, TVGuide.com, it not the correct approach to write an encyclopedic article, because synthesis a form of self-referencing.
  There is indeed alot to say about the longest running soap opera in the world, but a TV Guide article is not the right format. Articles and lists about TV series should provide analysis, context or criticism, regarding the reception, impact and development of notable works, or notable characters or notable episodes. That is to say, if there is any episode, character or element of the series production that is notable, then that would be a suitable topic for inclusion in Misplaced Pages, but groups of non-notable characters and episodes are not. Guiding Light (1980–1989) is therefore not a suitable topic for inclusion in Misplaced Pages, not only because it is not itself notable, but also because its synthetic content fails Misplaced Pages content policies. --Gavin Collins (talk) 10:52, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

• You are still misapplying the concept of content fork, nothing on POVFORK says what you are implying. Also, baring size, there is nothing in any guideline or policy that says the the plot summary of the events of soap opera over time cannot be described in an article, presuming that we have already talked about the secondary information for the topic, which is the case for Guiding Light already. However, SIZE says that combining all the information is inappropriate, so something has to be split out. Your insistence that WP:N applies at the article level (not the topic level as it states now) causes a paradox with other policies and guidelines that cannot be resolved. That's why WP:N is a guideline; it is not to be taken as a hard rule and to allow the flexibility when it is obviously needed. --MASEM 13:21, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

• Masem, you say this, but the fact is the article provides no evidence of notability, and articles that fail WP:N tend to fail other Misplaced Pages content policies as well - this is a problem your analysis fails to address and I think you really need to understand, because it is the achilles heal in all your arguements that inclusion criteria for articles should be relaxed to include lists of non-notable characters and episiodes.
  For instance, in the example of Guiding Light (1980–1989), if you don't agree with view that it is a content fork then can you provide any evidence, in the absence of reliable secondary sources, that it is not? It has all the characteristics of one: it is comprised of plot and character summary, synthesis and original research, but because there is no evidence in article to show that the topic itself is notable and its source is not independent of the subject matter, it is pretty safe to say it has all the classic symptoms of a content fork.
  I have heard the arguement before that the article is not a content fork because it contains information about a more notable topic, in this case the television series Guiding Light. However, notability cannot be inherited/presumed/acknowledged in the absence of reliable secondary sources, so your arguments do not carry any weight.
  You have also argued that WP:SIZE alows articles to be slit into sub-articles, but nowhere does it say that the resulting sub-article is exempt from WP:N: only if the topic of the sub-article has received significant coverage in reliable secondary sources that are independent of the subject, it is presumed to satisfy the inclusion criteria for a stand-alone article.
  The fact is that the articles Guiding Light and Guiding Light (1980–1989) are seperate articles but they can't be exempted from any of Misplaced Pages policies and guidelines on the grounds that they deal with the different aspects of the same television series. --Gavin Collins (talk) 14:06, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

Not a TV guide, redux

While I sympathize strongly with Gavin's goal, I think it went further than would ever be able to achieve consensus on Misplaced Pages. Hell, I couldn't even make myself agree with it, and represent about as far as you can go towards the exclusionist side and stay sane around here. How about this as an attempt to codify the base concept into something we might be able to build a consensus policy around:

Misplaced Pages is not a TV guide, nor a movie guide, nor a comic handbook. Articles which describe fictional works cannot be dominated by the plot or by description of elements contained within the work. Articles which describe fictional work must emphasize analysis and critique of the fictional element they are describing.

—Kww(talk) 00:20, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

Are you saying movie guides don't "emphasize analysis and critique of the fictional element they are describing"? --Pixelface (talk) 06:05, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

• In answer to Kww, I see little difference between his proposal and mine, other than the omission of books and the addition of comics within the scope of the prohibition.
  In answer to Pixelface, the point is you can't write a movie guide on Wikipeidia, as this contravenes WP:NOR and the only way to get around this is to cite reliable secondary sources, such as the guides you have listed. I think I make it clear in my proposal that articles that are not encyclopedic are those that do not cite reliable secondary sources: e.g. List of film crossovers or List of film director and actor collaborations are clear examples of synthesis which would be useful source if it had been drawn from one of the film guides, but composing these lists in Wikipeida is not appropriate. It is clear that the horse is being put beofore the cart in these examples: these lists must be cited from film guides, not written as if film guides cite the lists. --Gavin Collins (talk) 08:27, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

Mine does not include lists, which is the source of 98% of the opposition to your proposal.—Kww(talk) 11:08, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

This reads as a restatement of WP:NOT#PLOT so I don't think this would change anything; maybe its needed to strength PLOT to including undue weight of the primary sourced material vs secondary sourced. --MASEM 11:31, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

It really is subtly different, but I agree that it could be covered by expansion of WP:NOT#PLOT. I carefully chose the phrase descriptions of elements within the work, because many people have tried to claim that highly detailed descriptions of a character, location, weapon, or monster was not a retelling of the plot.—Kww(talk) 11:54, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

That, I agree, is a needed clarification of PLOT and probably can be worked into that. --MASEM 12:05, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

Like Masem, I see Kww's proposal just as a rephrasing of NOT#PLOT. While I am always open for new suggestions re:PLOT, introducing redundancy is not the solution. – sgeureka 12:32, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

• The problem is not limited to articles that comprise of just a description of elements contained within the work, as often there is production, broadcasting and distribution information included in the mix. In the same way that Misplaced Pages is not a train spotting guide, recording every train, model and number, I don't think there is a need for Misplaced Pages to duplicate IMDb. I think the point is that no matter what primary content is included in article about a movie, book, television title, it has to more than just bare bones for it to be included in Misplaced Pages, no matter how extensive the primary coverage is. Just because a film has a plot, some characters, a director and a film distribution company, it cannot be presumed to worthy of inclusion unless it notable. I think the catch all wording of my proposal takes this into account, by stating that Misplaced Pages is simply as not a record of everything that has ever been distributed or broadcast in the media. --Gavin Collins (talk) 13:00, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

Is this an inclusion critereon or a content critereon? As a content criterion, I support. As an inclusion critereon, I oppose. We shouldn't be deleting otherwise notable articles because the content needs work as long as they have the potential to evolve into an article that does meet the criteron. That's the way a wiki is supposed to work. -Chunky Rice (talk) 17:00, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

PLOT is a content guideline: Articles on fiction or elements thereof should not be heavily weighted on plot. As a consequence, this can be read as a notability guideline: a plot-only article (non-notable) is unacceptable -- however, this is not the intent of its meaning, it is just a happenstance that lines up with notability. Mind you, we do need to consider DEADLINE and that articles can be improved, but articles that ultimately are only plot and cannot be improved fail both PLOT and WP:N, and thus should be merged to a larger topic. --MASEM 18:26, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

• I think in general there's a consensus to have a leniency towards list articles (though they are not completely immune depending on the content). I'm in support of not having plot only articles, but other than being more explicit than NOT#PLOT, I'm not sure what this addition will add. Bill  20:12, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

• The problem is that list articles can be turned into lists of plot only or character only summaries. Some editors here believe that lists are exempt from Misplaced Pages guidelines and polices just because they are not classed as articles; however, since such lists are a synthesis of primary sources, this is not the case. --Gavin Collins (talk) 10:57, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

Well yes, if the content is unsourced and it moves beyond a purely descriptive summary then editors will be creating their own work. My point is that by their nature, a list of characters or episodes are more likely to have a much larger percentage of the page which is plot only information than a normal article. I very much doubt you'll get any legislation against lists of characters or episodes because I've seen many times at AFD and merge discussion that there is a consensus towards allowing them even with minimal real world information. I think it would be better to focus energy on ensuring that these articles don't become filled with OR and don't become a retelling of entire plots. Bill  12:22, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

• Even if a list cites primary sources, it can still be a synthesis. A list which is plot summary still fails WP:NOT#PLOT, in the same way that an article that is all plot does. There is already sufficient guidelines and policies prohibiting lists of plot summaries, but now is the time to make this prohibition clear and explicit. In my experience, may lists of characters or episodes have been deleted or because they have failed one or polices or guidelines, and unless they get cleaned up, probably those that did not will be deleted in the future. --Gavin Collins (talk) 13:28, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

• I don't think it's necessary to provide a blanket ban on a type of list because it could be original research. Every single article could fail any policy or guideline we have if it was edited poorly. Misplaced Pages policies don't legislate every possible situation (nor should they try). List articles are one of those situations where PLOT isn't asserted as heavily. There's no consensus to say that it should be. Bill  15:03, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

• I understand your concerns, but these lists of non-notable characters and episodes is a very specific area; namely topics that fail WP:N. The problem with topics that fail WP:N, regardless of whether they are articles, sub-articles or lists, is that they usually fail one or more content policies such as WP:NOT, so there aleady exists an effective prohibition for these type of articles and lists. The consensus therefore already exists at policy level. --Gavin Collins (talk) 09:56, 29 October 2008 (UTC)

• I'm well aware of all these policies. I keep saying that there is very much a consensus not to apply them as strongly to these lists. Take the reaction to your proposal for example. Your inclusion of lists is a big reason that it failed to get support. Bill  12:44, 29 October 2008 (UTC)

• I think not. WP:LISTS says that "Lists, whether they are embedded lists or stand-alone lists, are encyclopedic content as are paragraphs and articles, and they are equally subject to Misplaced Pages's content policies". So the argument that policy should be applied to them less strongly does not hold weight at policy level. --Gavin Collins (talk) 13:12, 29 October 2008 (UTC)

• LISTS also suggests getting consensus also, which in this case is for the inclusion of the lists in a some circumstances. This is not the only place this occurs on Misplaced Pages. There's a consensus for the inclusion of many types of geographical locations where the articles are mostly descriptive. Airports are another one I've seen. Policy doesn't dictate every situation. In the face of consensus it becomes necessary to ignore it. Bill  13:36, 29 October 2008 (UTC)

WP:Update

See WP:Update for the September changes to all the Category:Misplaced Pages content policy pages (including this one) and also the most generally-used style guidelines (called, unsurprisingly, Category:General style guidelines). If anyone wants to take on the job of updating monthly content policy at WP:Update, please reply at WT:Update. Obviously, since this page is in WP-space, anyone can make any edit at any time, but it would be nice to get a core of "regular" updaters. - Dan Dank55 (send/receive) 18:06, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

Not a directory taken to excess

While WP is not a directory, I feel that edits like this are taking the matter too far. Comments? Andy Mabbett (User:Pigsonthewing); Andy's talk; Andy's edits 10:36, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

That's a completely reasonable deletion of directory-type information. A list of locations of a nationwide chain (particularly when one can find the list from the company's official website) is not necessary; what is acceptable is the general geographic area the story serves ("Hudson's serves primarily the Midwest and New England regions..."). --MASEM 12:07, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

I concur. That looks like an entirely reasonable edit to me. Rossami (talk) 13:29, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

In case it makes a difference, the list in question is of defunct stores, not current ones, does include non-directory information (when they were opened and, where relevant, when they were demolished or who took them over), and in this case (as I assume Masem would have been speaking generally) there is no company site, as the company is defunct. So while it is probably an ok edit, I can see a good argument for keeping it, too. :) - Bilby (talk) 13:44, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

However, these lists, besides not being a directory, also contain unverifiable original research, and are therefore also being removed under WP:V and WP:OR. SchuminWeb (Talk) 14:46, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

You don't believe that any newspaper ever mentions that, in this case, an anchor store has opened/closed or exists in a given mall or shopping center? I'm not understanding how this stuff would be unverifiable... newspapers often report on this sort of stuff. --Rividian (talk) 20:53, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

The funny thing is, actual, print encyclopedias often will dump a "directory" list into an otherwise prose article, if it's information that would be interesting to people reading that article. In this case, a defunct store, people are reading the article are generally wanting to learn its history, and part of that was its locations. I'm not sure how removing the directory actually improved the article for readers... it seems more about just following the letter of policy. So I ask this: how does a reader, interested in the history of this chain, get more out of reading the article now that the former locations list is gone? --Rividian (talk) 21:39, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

It's not easy where to draw the line. The information is not "unverifiable" for reasons already mentioned above. Part of the issue is sometimes these lists get a bit "splindly" and become larger than the article itself. Squidfryerchef (talk) 01:37, 19 October 2008 (UTC)

I understand that directory-style information can sometimes become problematic... but in this specific case, it seems like applying the letter of the law left us with a poorer article. I'm not really seeing how the reader would think the new version of the article is better or more informative... it just arguably follows policy more closely now. --Rividian (talk) 02:55, 19 October 2008 (UTC)

It seems that the big fundamental question here is, what makes a list of locations for a defunct chain any more notable than a list of locations for an operating chain? We could get sources for the opening and closings of most locations of chains still operating, just like we could for defunct ones. For example, usually, when Wal-Mart comes to a town, it more often than not gets newspaper coverage. Would we list all 3000-some Wal-Mart locations in the Wal-Mart article? No. That's what we need to work through - does the fact that the parent company went out of business make the individual locations any more notable than stores of an operating company? I say no. SchuminWeb (Talk) 05:46, 19 October 2008 (UTC)

← I don't get it. Can anyone draw the line between unacceptable directory and a featured list? What (other than the fans' energy) makes a directory like List of Chicago Landmarks impervious to deletionists? What makes it different from the deleted entry discussed immediately above? NVO (talk) 19:28, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

The difference between the list of Chicago landmarks and the list of Hudson's stores are twofold (to me):

• The former is a well defined, well references list - there is a specific criteria for the landmark to be listed as the article explains. A list of defunct Hudson stories would have qualify if locations had moved, closed down earlier, etc - there's no strong reasoning for why one would include one store over another, and unless it can be referenced, it's pretty much out in the open in terms of sourcing.
• The encyclopedic value of the information: specifically the scholarship of the lists, is very different. The list of Chicago landmarks has several scholarly applications: the Hudson's list not so much. --MASEM 03:19, 19 October 2008 (UTC)

The former has no references beyond links to the official landmark registers. No indication of any scholarly research (and no prospects of such research appearing in the foreseeable future. Some survivors of the great fire are covered in history books, some in engineering sources, but which branch of science dared to study Café Brauer? The point is, scholarly value of at least half of listed properties in Chicago (or elsewhere) is just as great as that of the deleted store directory. They are points of local interest, nothing more. NVO (talk) 17:36, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

In the case of the example you cited, List of Chicago landmarks, the information is highly verifiable. Everything is highly sourced. These location lists are less so. SchuminWeb (Talk) 15:B01, 19 October 2008 (UTC)

Is it some kind of joke? Most of the links from Chicago list are to the official registers of ... yes, Chicago landmarks. No independent references. A list quoting another list. Not that the source is irrelevant, but isn't it circular reference? NVO (talk) 17:36, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

These edits are ravaging the articles that attempt to provide the history of businesses that in many cases were the central feature of a small-town business district for decades, then abruptly disappeared due to a merger. Histories of these businesses are not readily available on the Internet, but they are important. I would hope that stubby articles, including lists of locations, will be the seed for more thorough articles based on sources such as local newspaper archives.
Based on the edit you made to Miller's of Tennessee, I concluded that your objection was not to unsourced content but rather to embedded lists. In that article, you left unsourced historical content in paragraph form, but removed sourced (as well as unsourced) content in list form. (I rewrote it in paragraph form, but I don't have time to do that for every store where you removed lists.) Please don't trash content from good-faith contributors who aren't comfortable with writing paragraphs. --Orlady (talk) 15:14, 19 October 2008 (UTC)

The reworking of Miller's of Tennessee is , to me, a better way (though not perfect) to describe locations of a chain business: the first and likely second stores are going to have some history, but when it starts expanding beyond that, it can run into a list of locations. Knowing where exactly (e.g. malls) branch locations are is not really helpful, though saying that a store had branch locations in several cities, including "x, y, and z" helps. --MASEM 15:33, 19 October 2008 (UTC)

I would agree - flagship stores for a company are likely notable in the context of the company. However, numerous smaller mall anchor locations are not. SchuminWeb (Talk) 17:29, 19 October 2008 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages is not a collection of inappropriate clean-up tags

See Solar Energy Generating Systems: There is a tag there stating that Misplaced Pages is not a collection of images. Of course it could well be said that Misplaced Pages is not a random collection of superfluous visual information any more than any other kind of info, but what is more inappropriate in this case? The tag or the picture it urges to 'clean up'? These pictures are more pertinent to the story of Solar Energy Generating Systems than the rather large diagrams that seem to have taken precedence over them...

I think there is really a need for cleaning up tags more than there is a need to deprive the reader of relevant visual information just because there is not enough text to embed it in.

Jcwf (talk) 21:53, 19 October 2008 (UTC) Oh, just to be clear: I was a reader of this article and had nothing to do with its creation

I removed the tag and the image gallery. There's a link to a much larger image gallery at Misplaced Pages Commons, containing all of the images in this article. --Orlady (talk) 22:40, 19 October 2008 (UTC)

Why did you remove the perfectly good images? Are readers to be 'protected' from getting too much useful information? Is that encyclopedic? This is really insane. Jcwf (talk) 23:05, 19 October 2008 (UTC)

As I see it, no images were "removed", but rather, they were relocated to more appropriate places. Too many images in an article makes it appear cluttered, and galleries really have no place in Misplaced Pages. That's what Commons is for. The link to Commons serves the purpose of displaying large quantities of images quite admirably. SchuminWeb (Talk) 23:56, 19 October 2008 (UTC)

• I agree that Misplaced Pages should not present its editorial notes and tags as prominent and primary content. They are not appropriate at the head of article pages as they distract the reader from the actual content and try to persuade him to become an editor rather than a reader. In a proper encyclopedic work, editorial notes are put into separate sections such as prefaces or are sparingly used as inconspicuous footnotes. Framed as a NOT, we might say

Misplaced Pages is not a working document.

Misplaced Pages articles are already used daily by millions of readers as a source of information. While they are constantly open to improvement, they should be presented as if they were the final version. Content which is not intended for final consumption such as:

• editorial comments, criticisms, debates and suggestions;
• links and lists of raw data and sources;
• project affiliations and assesssments;
• other working notes

should not appear in the article but should be placed upon the corresponding discussion page. If inline annotations, such as a citation tag, seem essential, they should be used sparingly and with an inconspicuous format.

Colonel Warden (talk) 09:12, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

The only problem I see with this approach (an approach I can stand behind, mind you), is that there are editors that feel that we should be encouraging readers to become editors when articles need to be "completed". There was a recent debate, umm, somewhere on the use of the "Missing photo" images for biographies, and a similar one for missing coordinates for the Geolocation project. Both ended in the general agreement that having tags that encourage the end user to help are more important than the separation of the workings of WP from the casual user. There feels like there's a compromise position here somewhere (we should not get pre-lead tag crazy, for example, but specific section tags and use of {{fact}} and similar tags should be kept to a minimum seems like a middle ground). --MASEM 09:19, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

NotMemorial

My Recent edit here was reverted partly on the grounds you should use the talk page first. First may I remind everyone that this is NOT correct - the Wiki Policy is as illustrated. Ironically this leads to the second reason for the revert we need it here, becasue notability is a guideline, not policy I have gathered the threads (which I think) cover NotMemorial: 1; 2; 3; 4; 5; 6; 7. I think this is evidence that (1) Whan applied as intended it achieves no more than Misplaced Pages:Notability (which, despite being a guidline, is treated as a policy) (2) It has been inconsistently applied/misapplied beyond the initial intention of the author thus leading to reams of fruitless argument. I propose NOTMemorial is removed and that we continue to remove articles about unnotable subjects. Lucian Sunday (talk) 16:01, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

First, I would recommend that you read Misplaced Pages:Consensus and the drill-down page Misplaced Pages:How to contribute to Misplaced Pages guidance a bit more closely because they clearly state that a higher standard of demonstrated consensus is necessary for highly-edited, long-standing policy pages. While WP:BRD is the ideal for most article pages, Misplaced Pages precedent on this page is that all but the most minor edits should be discussed here first.
On the specific question of whether the NOTMEMORIAL clause is redundant with the Notability clauses, I will note that NOTMEMORIAL predated the entire concept of notability by quite a bit. I'll also note that while the concept of notability remains controversial in some circles, the NOTMEMORIAL clause is no longer at all controversial. And our history at the project shows that it is and remains heavily used. The clause lets us politely remove Uncle Mike's obituary entry without the need to open ourselves up to the endless fights and distractions of what "notability" really means.
Furthermore, Notability is a straight inclusion criterion - if you're notable, you might get an encyclopedia article - if you're not notable, you don't. NOTMEMORIAL covers that but also goes beyond it to style directive. You might be notable but we still won't include your obituary. We write neutral and balanced biographies, not memorial articles.
Like all sections of this page, the clause is occasionally misused. On the whole, however, I think it is more helpful than not. Even if parts of it are a bit redundant, NOTMEMORIAL neatly encapsulates both aspects in a way that is very easy for new users to understand. Rossami (talk) 17:14, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

Occam's razor should be applied to Misplaced Pages precedent on this page and indeed any other precedent which requires an editor to be sent off on a virtual paper trail to understand that a simple policy is infact not so simple. Again WP:MOS adequately deals with unencyclopedic obituary type elements. How can NOTMEMORIAL neatly encapuslate anything if parts of it are a bit redundant? Lucian Sunday (talk) 21:47, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

I would say that, as an inclusion policy, WP:BLP1E is probably more comprehensive and less confusing on the same topic. That said, NOTMEMORIAL directly addresses a recurring issue and on occassions where it is applied improperly, it's fairly easy to address. So, I guess I don't care if it stays or goes. -Chunky Rice (talk) 17:24, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

I agree WP:BLP1E is more comprehensive and less confusing but whether NOTMEMORIAL was applied improperly or not here it was not addressed fairly easily. It is still being used to remove some Victims (rightly or wrongly?) but not others. Lucian Sunday (talk) 22:22, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

Boy, you really don't understand WP:BRD do you? I don't really see a consensus here for removing it. For my opinion, I agree with Rossami. It is more helpful than not. Garion96 (talk) 08:19, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

The threads 1; 2; 3; 4; 5; 6; 7 show the confusion that has been caused. Are you aware of a single application of NotMemorial that could not be dealt with by an existing policy or Guidline. Lucian Sunday (talk) 08:29, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

So what if it is double. Almost this complete policy is explained also in seperate guideline's/policy's. WP:User page vs WP:NOTBLOG. You still haven't explained where the consensus is. I saw your change, looked at the talk, did not see consensus so I reverted. Which you again nicely reverted. Garion96 (talk) 09:03, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

WP:NOTBLOG is a succinct summary of the weighty article that is WP:User page. NOTMEMORIAL is not a succinct summary of any other article. It is lumped in with talk space issues blog, webspace provider, or social networking site (ironically memorials are tolerated in Talkspace) when it is infact an article issue. It is fruitless work to wikify articles such as Here because it is difficult to get across that NOTMEMORIAL was not intended in such cases. Lucian Sunday (talk) 09:24, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

Then change the wording instead of removing it. Btw, I still fail to see a consensus here for a complete removal in this discusion to which you linked in your edit summary. Garion96 (talk) 11:15, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

What rewording do you propose? Lucian Sunday (talk) 11:20, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

I don't even object to the current wording, so feel free to improve. :) Garion96 (talk) 11:23, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

The phrase WP:NOTMEMORIAL should be removed. There are examples as Here were it is inappropriately applied. The wording is misleadingly too definitive a position that is not policy. Lucian Sunday (talk) 11:48, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

I think you need to find better examples. In my opinion, the removal of that text about the officers who died was entirely appropriate. The subsequent discussion on that article's Talk page confirms that even if you removed the NOTMEMORIAL wording here, the text would have been removed from the article in question. It is detail that's just not appropriate in an encyclopedia article. NOTMEMORIAL, however, neatly encapsulated the arguments and made the discussion both simpler and more civil. Rossami (talk) 18:04, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

IMO those are borderline examples. Not everybody is clear on the concept, but you could say that about every policy and guideline, and people's misapplication of a policy or guideline is not by itself a reason to remove it. NOTMEMORIAL serves a minor but useful purpose, which is to discourage people from writing articles, article sections, etc., that are primarily eulogies or online memorials. That does not mean we cannot talk about people's deaths or use obituaries as sources (they are often the most concise sources available of people's basic biographical information). It just means the person's death has to be treated if at all in an encyclopedic way. Similar with NOT:NEWS, and many of the other categories. It's not a prohibition on the subject or source, it's a statement of an approach Misplaced Pages should not take.Wikidemon (talk) 18:16, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

I have to say Wikidemon that you have articulated that very well. I propose your verbatim wording be placed into the article

NOTMEMORIAL serves a minor but useful purpose, which is to discourage people from writing articles, article sections, etc., that are primarily eulogies or online memorials. That does not mean we cannot talk about people's deaths or use obituaries as sources (they are often the most concise sources available of people's basic biographical information). It just means the person's death has to be treated if at all in an encyclopedic way. Lucian Sunday (talk) 20:24, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

I've reverted the change to the redir (it makes no sense at all for WP:NOTMEMORIAL to redirect to a page which starts "this is a memorial...") and restored the note on this article. If the language needs improved then so be it, but removal isn't the right answer. Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 07:47, 1 November 2008 (UTC)

"not a publisher of original thought" - Logical conclusions?

This is a "common sense" and "logic" issue and I am not sure where it really fits in. Here is a scenario:

• A verifiable citation states a date of birth.
• A verifiable citation states an age
• A verifiable citation states an amount of years

So now an Editor wants to combine those into an article. So they might put down:

• The subject was born on mmddyyyy and in yyyy, when the subject was xx years old, they started doing something that continued until yyyy.

In this case the "uncited" statements would be the years, other than the year of birth. However to me it is logic that can be verified by simply reading the citations. "Doing the math" seems logical however it seems like doing this is a violation of policy - namely that by "doing the math" it is a violation of "Misplaced Pages is not a place to publish your own thoughts and analyses or to publish new information not previously published". The No original research policy also states: "Editors should not make the mistake of thinking that if A is published by a reliable source, and B is published by a reliable source, then A and B can be joined together in an article to come to the conclusion C. This would be synthesis of published material which advances a position, which constitutes original research. "A and B, therefore C" is acceptable only if a reliable source has published this argument in relation to the topic of the article."

My question is about common sense and logic. Should either ever enter into an article or should all articles only include wording to reflect the verifiable facts as they were worded? (Policy states: "Best practice is to write Misplaced Pages articles by taking information from different reliable sources about a subject and putting those claims in our own words on an article page, with each claim attributable to a source that explicitly makes that claim") Soundvisions1 (talk) 18:57, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

I don't think this applies to a lot of mathematical synthesis. It does apply in biochemistry, where many variables are to impede logical deduction and induction. It also applies to Physical sciences. By the same token, math is an art, and an art is in communicating it, so if someone challenges a conclusion, then you should be able to deliver a proof. BrewJay (talk) 07:53, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

You are taking the point to extreme; trivial calculation is quite far from "synthesis" and nowhere near "research". Your example may contain an error of plus-minus one year (30 or 31 years old? cannot say exactly when only one date is known precisely). Avoid such calculations for this reason alone, there is no need to invoke NOR. NVO (talk) 08:41, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

Not censored versus not anarchy

I am about to make a WP:BOLD edit to the anarchy section to emphasize that our primary mission of building an encyclopedia and promoting free content may prevail over free expression of ideas where there is a conflict. My concern is that many people whose edits are reverted or discussions closed or redacted as OR, FRINGE, RS, NOTFORUM, POV, perrenial proposals, against consensus, etc., cry censorship. It would be useful to have something more solid we can point to when explaining that no, we are not censoring your idea because it is unpopular, we are simply providing for the orderly construction of an encyclopedia. Please feel free to comment, trim, etc., or point me to a better place or a past discussion if this is all old hat. I am fairly new to this page. Thanks, Wikidemon (talk) 19:06, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

Actually, after reading the section again I sees it already covers this quite well. I just need to point people to it when they complain. I did create a new policy shortcut, NOTFREESPEECH, in hopes of making it clearer. Wikidemon (talk) 19:11, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

Any edit to this page should reflect consensus. Please do not make any edits to the policy until there has been time to discuss. Soundvisions1 (talk) 19:15, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

No - that's not how consensus works on policy pages. However, I'm an old hand and recognize that boldness has a much lower threshold on policy pages, and for the most part policy pages are descriptive rather than prescriptive.Wikidemon (talk) 19:18, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

Soundvisions1 is correct - any change to this page that is not purely maintenance-related needs to be brought to a consensus on this talk page first. Back in 2002 one could just jump right in here and be bold (I sure did) but those days are over. --mav (talk) 02:14, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

I'll edit how I please. Sorry if I raised anyone's hackles but everyone is eligible to edit meta-pages. I assume you all are on a hair trigger for disruptive edits like we all are across the project. But that's no reason for mindless WP:BITE-y templating of the regulars - on a talk page for goodness sakes. In the past year or so I've made plenty of useful edits to WP:BLP, WP:RS, WP:EL, WP:NFCC, WP:CFD, among others. If you want to be helpful it's often better simply to do it. Here I did just what a careful editor should. I justified my edits before making them, took a good look around, tried to encapsulate the overwhelming consensus of Misplaced Pages on a policy matter, and in this case concluded that the policy page already describes consensus well so no edit was needed. If the page were out of step with consensus I would have edited accordingly, and if I find so in the future I will not hesitate to edit it before, while, or after discussing the matter on the talk page. You don't like it, revert me or take me to AN/I or arbitration. Wikidemon (talk) 06:49, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

In the short term you can do just that and the only consequence is that you will get reverted (as was done here). But a pattern of such behavior will get you in trouble. That is why it is necessary to seek consensus first before making edits that are a departure from current practice or policy. If you are unsure, then ask on the relevant talk page (as you did). But please don't ignore the feedback. --mav (talk) 03:21, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

Plot

Leaving this message here for all those care. Please stop removing the information on Misplaced Pages not being just a plot summary. If you challenge this statement, then please start a discussion. This section has been part of the policy since July 9, 2006, when it was added following this discussion. You mean believe the discussion to be short, lasting about a week, but at the time they had clear consensus, with the people that initially opposed settling on a description that all could agree (minus Williamborg, who appears to be promoting that was create original research articles....odd). The last oppose didn't even appear until almost two months after the section was added, and is confusing because they are opposing and yet agreeing with people that went on to agree with the section's inclusion (Initial opposition was over the fact that it was believe that the section would remove plot summaries in general, which many did not want, but agreed that a page solely on a plot summary is not appropriate). The fact that this has been apart of the policy for over 2 years says that it was an accepted addition by the majority of the community. If someone disagrees, then start a new discussion, but please stop removing it without proper consensus to do so.  BIGNOLE  (Contact me) 05:26, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

No, there was no consensus to add it to this policy at that time. I've read the discussion. PLOT has been removed multiple times by multiple editors over 2 years. PLOT has been challenged multiple times by multiple editors over 2 years. I'm tired of repeating myself so I suggest you read this thread from June. That PLOT remains in here only indicates that 5 or so editors are keeping it here by force. In addition to never having consensus to be policy, WP:NOT#PLOT creates a huge conflict of interest with Wikia, because PLOT is used to ship articles related to fiction off Misplaced Pages to Wikia in order to generate a profit. Policies do not exist to enrich Jimbo Wales. --Pixelface (talk) 07:27, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

First, your link showed that YOU disputed its existence. I did not see consensus to remove it. Guess what, the fact that it's been challenged a few times doesn't mean it doesn't have consensus, it means that some people along the way didn't agree with it. Given that you have been reverted by 3 different editors here, it seems that there is at least consensus among this page's editors that it belongs. Being challenged doesn't mean it does not have consensus. Please know the difference. Um, where did this twisted logic come from that articles are shipped to Wikia to create a profit for Jimbo Whales? No where in this section does it say, "put plot summary articles in Wikia". What happens to those articles is not the concern of this section. An editor like myself suggesting that they go to Wikia is not a conflict of interest of this page, it's my personal suggestion so that the information stays in tact, but in a place that accepts it. So, stop assuming it's some conspiracy by Jimbo to get more money. It isn't. Like I said, start a formal discussion about its inclusion, or leave it alone. You cannot just remove things on a whim because YOU believe it shouldn't be there. Your boldness has lapsed, and now you're just being disruptive. I have to assume you don't want a formal discussion going because you know you won't get consensus to remove the section. If that isn't the case, then I guess you'd have no trouble starting that discussion so consensus can arise as to the fate of the section, which has been in existence consistently for 2 years (the fact that someone has challenged it every so often does not mean it doesn't have consensus, not unless there was consensus to remove it. WP:NOTE is challenged regularly, but it has consensus for existence still). Start the discussion, or leave it alone. Plain and simple. I don't plan on discussing the potential consensus of anything any further with you. Good day.  BIGNOLE  (Contact me) 12:39, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

Personally, I'd rather see it go, but I agree there is not consensus for that yet. But there is a real concern about how it's used. Perhaps some wording changes would help "appropriate" for concise (or even "appropriately concise", and "overall" for "larger". DGG (talk) 03:58, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

See it go? I take it you're an advocate of plot only articles? The purpose of it should be to inform editors that articles should be more than just a plot, and that plot summaries in any capacity should not be bloated with minute details about the subject matter (Currently, it really doesn't articulate either of those things very well, I wouldn't mind seeing some more concise definitions listed), because Misplaced Pages was never meant to be, nor should it ever be a substitution for watching, reading, listening, etc. to the subject matter. We're a 💕, but not a free alternative to things that require payment to be viewed.  BIGNOLE  (Contact me) 04:03, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

Not plot-only, exactly. We should cover all aspects of a subject. For most fiction, plot is the most important aspect of t e subject, has most of the secondary literature, and should get by far the most coverage. I'd say characters come next, followed by publication history, and influence--it will however depend on the fiction. Personally, I'm primarily interested in questions of influence, especially on other fiction--which is the mainstay of academic study of literature, but interpretation of the plot is considered equally worthy of serious attention. Some who disagree may never have given it real attention academically, or examined the literature on it that exists. When a course, as many do, devotes primary attention to one or two works of fiction, what do you think it talks about? I would apply this to individual books, to series, and to episodes. The main thing wrong with the present primarily-plot articles is their low quality--and the lack of interest in finding the secondary sources that exist. Of course, for such articles, one doesn't need secondary sources for the plot portion,though one should have them for the interpretation. they are almost always there. WP is meant to be a source of information. And the directions for how to write articles should be flexible guidelines, and do not belong here at all. That's why I would remove the section entirely. DGG (talk) 04:21, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

Discussing the plot is important, but reciting the plot on the page is not. When you don't have all of that other information you talk about, a recounting of the plot is virtually worthless. It provides nothing, as putting it in the article, when you have that other information, is for context with that information. We put the plot in so that our real world information makes better sense, not the other way around. The most important piece is not the plot of the film/book/etc; that's like saying that when I use a metaphor to provide context to my statement that the metaphor is the most important thing. It isn't. The most important thing is the primary message you are trying to get across. If it's Halloween, then that message is that independent horror films can become box office gold - or whatever (not saying that is the message, jut providing an example). That being said, I'm not saying it is the least important aspect of a page when there is other information present. It's a very valuable piece of contextual information necessary for any articles with real world information, we just should not be having pages solely on that (which tends to be more relevant to TV episodes than Films, because the latter often gets some form of commentary or documentary on making the film, while the former rarely does).  BIGNOLE  (Contact me) 12:27, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

PLOT is about plot-only articles. Articles about fictional characters are mainly plot. When readers go to the Lenny Leonard page, they want to know who Lenny Leonard is. In order to learn that, you have to give a plot summary. This policy currently says "Articles are not simply...plot summaries." So we have editors running around, mindlessly nominating fictional character articles for deletion, citing PLOT has a reason for deletion, because "things Misplaced Pages are not" is listed as a reason for deletion in the deletion policy. When readers to the Halloween article, they want to know "What is Halloween?" That involves recounting the plot. When readers go to the Michael Myers article, they want to know "Who is Michael Myers?" That involves recounting the plot. If some information is available on the conception or development of a character, great, add it to the article. But the lack of that information is not a reason to delete the article. If editors are going to treat a policy like it came down from the mountain in the hands of Moses, if editors are not going to read a policy intelligently, then the policy needs to be changed. --Pixelface (talk) 05:32, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

This policy is a list of things Misplaced Pages is not. Not a place to "inform editors that articles should be more than just a plot." Even if that's the intended purpose of PLOT, that is not how PLOT is used. PLOT is used to delete fiction content from Misplaced Pages. Misplaced Pages is a 💕. So why should readers have to go to Wikia to read about fictional characters like Andrey Nikolayevich Bolkonsky? --Pixelface (talk) 05:32, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

We can still cover fictional elements and concepts that fail PLOT or NOTE on WP, they just don't get their own article (and why I'm fighting to make sure that there is allowances for lists as a reasonable repository for non-notable elements). Expanded coverage may have to be on a different wiki, but at least people will be able to search and find redirects for fictional elements covered as part of a larger topic. Also, WP is a free content encyclopedia; any coverage of works still in copyright is partially derivative and is non-free content. That doesn't mean we can't have it, nor should we worry about copyright concerns until Mike Godwin says otherwise, but we cannot burder the encyclopedia with in-depth coverage of in-universe details of such works without hurting the free content goals of the work. --MASEM 05:58, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

So Misplaced Pages should not have articles for major characters of War and Peace such as Andrey Nikolayevich Bolkonsky? Misplaced Pages should not have an article on Cosette? Misplaced Pages should not have an article on Luke Skywalker? Misplaced Pages is the 💕 anyone can edit, not the 💕 anyone can edit until they're told to write their articles on Wikia instead. And Masem, you're still not a lawyer, you still know nothing about derivative works, and some articles about fictional characters have zero to do with non-free content. For example, some translations of War and Peace are in the public domain. So there is no issue whatsoever with "non-free content" regarding the Andrey Nikolayevich Bolkonsky article. How is an article like Lenny Leonard unacceptable on Misplaced Pages, yet it magically becomes acceptable on Wikia when a profit is generated off that content? Telling readers who Lenny Leonard is for free is hurting the goals of Misplaced Pages, but Jimbo Wales profitting off that information on Wikia moves Misplaced Pages closer to Misplaced Pages's goals? --Pixelface (talk) 06:32, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

WP should only have articles on these characters if there can be more details than just reiterating the plot from there view. For works like War and Peace and Star Wars, I'm pretty sure this can be done. For the average saturday morning 80s cartoon or a soap opera, very likely not. But we cannot equate "no article" to "no coverage"; these can always be talked about in a larger context of the work itself or a list of characters. From the derivative work standpoint, I'm not speaking legally, I'm speaking on the mantra of the free (as in thought) culture. A reiteration of a copyrighted work's plot is non-free, burdened by copyright issues; the longer and more detailed the reiteration, the more non-free it becomes. en.wiki does not bar nonfree content, but the Foundation asks us to keep it in check. Thus, concise plot information is a necessary requirement for any copyrighted work. Now that says nothing about older works like War and Peace which are long since out of copyright, but for consistency across WP, it makes sense to apply the same approach: just reiterating the plot from the aspect of one character does not serve an encyclopedic process and thus we discourage the expansion of character articles unless there is more out-of-universe details you can present about them. --MASEM 12:44, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

Bignole, you can read the thread I linked to or I can repeat myself. There was a rough consensus to remove PLOT a few months ago. Read my reply to Sgeureka in that thread (with all the citations) or I can provide those citations again. There is not consensus among this page's editors that PLOT belongs. There is stonewalling by Rossami (who was one of the very few editors who supported adding PLOT to this policy in the first place) and by editors who were involved parties of the E&C2 arbitration case. That is not consensus. I never claimed any kind of "conspiracy." But you're blind if you can't see the conflict of interest between WP:NOT#PLOT and Wikia. Stop being a useful idiot. Like I said, policies do not exist to enrich Jimbo Wales. If fiction content is just going to be shipped to Wikia, you might as well be honest and just put banner ads on the Misplaced Pages articles. I've already started a discussion about PLOT's inclusion. If you had looked at this page at all since January, you would know that. I'm not being disruptive. Explain to me why you think PLOT does not create a conflict of interest with Wikia. Feel free to refer to WP:COI if you'd like. There was a rough consensus to remove PLOT from this policy a few months ago. Even if someone disagrees, they have to agree that there was no consensus for PLOT to remain in this policy. You don't need consensus to remove from a policy page a section that does not have consensus It has to have consensus to be policy in the first place. And I also doubt your claim that NOTE "has consensus for existence still." How could it when guidelines can't be MFD'd? The editor who rewrote NOTE and tagged it as a guideline (after no discussion) after 16 days, Radiant!, isn't even here anymore. The editor who renamed various guidelines into "notability" guidelines, Jiy, isn't even here anymore. This is a discusion right now. If you don't want to talk here, don't. --Pixelface (talk) 05:32, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

Pixel, please pay attention to what I said. Do not confuse "wanting to know what Halloween is" with "only wanting to read a plot description" - which is how you are trying to argue against WP:PLOT. You cannot tell me, or anyone else, what a reader is looking for when they visit a page, because you do not know. Stop trying to argue that you do. Misplaced Pages is an E-N-C-Y-C-L-O-P-E-D-I-A, not a substitution for watching a movie, how many times do I, and everyone else have to repeat that? Encyclopedias are not simply plot recounters. If the only thing you have to say about a film is "this is its plot" then you don't need a page to say that. That can be said in a couple hundred words on some other article that is more encompassing of small topics that really cannot hold their own weight in article space.

Pixel, I suggest you read WP:CONSENSUS a little closer, as you have a very skewed idea of what "consensus" actually is. There is no "rough consensus", there is only plain ol' "consensus". Either you have it or you don't. That discussion you linked to before DID NOT have any consensus for removal of the section. Just because you tried to interpret the consensus in your favor doesn't make it true. What I have noticed Pixel is that whenever YOU don't like something you deem that it has no consensus and then proceed to remove it till you get your way, or are forced to start a consensus discussion that again never ends in your favor - which results in you interpreting, incorrectly, a new consensus that IS in your favor because you cannot handle the fact that something you don't like is still in effect.

Also, end all this stupid "enrich Jimbo Whales" nonsense. You don't know what you're talking about. This policy page doesn't even mention Wikia, so stop bringing it up like it does. That is something that some editors have suggested to others who don't want to lose their blow-by-blow plot descriptions, which are completely unencyclopedic. No one cares if Wikia has ads. IMDb has ads, and we send people over there. I don't see you claiming that as a COI, especially given that we have editors who are registered both here and there.

If an article cannot come up with real world information, then it clearly doesn't need a page all to itself describing some plot in useless detail when it can be summarized more succinctly on a larger page. That is what WP:PLOT is for. P.S. NO policy governs how editors use or abuse it. They are merely the rules we set in place, and if they are being abused then that isn't not a fault of the policy but of the editors. Please note that difference when you start talking about how WP:PLOT is used in comparison to what it is meant for.  BIGNOLE  (Contact me) 05:46, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

I never said that Misplaced Pages is a substitution for watching a movie. So keep repeating yourself all you want. But if the only thing you have to say about a fictional character is this is what the fictional character did in the fictional work, like the article Andrey Nikolayevich Bolkonsky does, why should the article be deleted? If you're wondering what "rough consensus" is, go read the section on rough consensus at WP:DGFA#Rough consensus or the Rough consensus article. I never said the consensus to remove PLOT was in that section in June. In that section I provided citations for the rough consensus that PLOT did not belong in NOT. I cannot see how anyone could claim there was consensus to add PLOT to NOT in this thread and yet also claim there was not consensus to remove PLOT after reading the following comments: Are you a troll or do you just not know how to spell Jimbo Wales? I didn't say this policy page mentions Wikia. But Wikia's interests and PLOT align perfectly. Wikia is a profit generating company. Misplaced Pages is run by a non-profit organization. How are editors even supposed to come up with "real world information" for fictional characters that are completely made up? The character Andrey Nikolayevich Bolkonsky only exists within War and Peace. I've talked to Hiding, the editor who proposed PLOT, so don't try and claim what PLOT is meant for. And policies are not rules. If many people don't understand a policy, that is the fault of the policy. This policy is things Misplaced Pages is not. PLOT is used to delete fiction content off of Misplaced Pages. Fiction content used to build Wikia. PLOT is a blatant conflict of interest. --Pixelface (talk) 06:21, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

Wow, I could link all of the editors comments that didn't want to remove PLOT too, but you know what, that was be stupid and unnecessary. You think if you count a number that means there is consensus? That isn't how it works, and you further prove my point that you have no idea what consensus actually is. Your argument that we're enriching Whales is ridiculous. Again, the policy does not say that and just because it's being used that way does not change that the fact that (and I'll say this loud for those that are having a hard time reading it), THE POLICY DOES NOT SAY THAT. Yes, you never said "the policy says it", but your argument is that the policy aligns with Wikia. It doesn't, because the policy doesn't tell you where to put the extra garbage in those articles. What you choose to do with it is UP TO YOU. WP:PLOT says, no articles with just plot summaries. How can you find real world infomration on characters made up? Well, let's see: Batman, Jason Voorhees, Michael Myers, Lionel Luthor, Clar Kent, Superman, Chloe Sullivan, Lana Lang, Lex Luthor, Lois Lane, Jack Harkness, Faith - they're all fictional characters with real world information on them....gasp! It seems, with a little research, one can find real world content for those characters that actually warrant an article to themselves. Then again, that would require you to do some actual work on articles Pixel, you know, instead of spending all your time challenging different guidelines and policies that don't allow you to create Misplaced Pages into that perfect fansite that you've been dreaming of. P.S. If Andrey Bolkonsky is only plot information, then maybe he doesn't need an article. Given that he's only appeared in the one book, he must not be that special for people not to write about him. Oh, well what do you know, it seems with minimal effort there is stuff written about him, I would never have guess that with such time consuming activity that I would ever have found something on a character as low profile as Andrey Bolkonsky.

Again, your idea of consensus...still skewed. Clearly, someone like you, who has a clear head and neutral opinion, is the right person to indicate when there is "rough consensus" for something they've been debating on and off for months. You spout out words like "rough consensus", and link to pages, then proceed to list about bunch of editors that don't agree with the policy. Is it just me, or are you trying to create a voting system? That couldn't be after you told me I don't know what rough consensus is and that I should read the page... you know, the page that clearly says, "Consensus is not determined by counting heads, but by looking at strength of argument, and underlying policy." Before you waste your time linking more pointless diffs of editors that don't agree with the policy, make sure you read that line I just pasted a few times. It's been in practice for awhile now too, so you might want to try and form your "rough consensus" over at WP:CONSENSUS and get it so voting is how we determine things (especially since right now, using your method of "counting heads", you have 6 people saying leave it alone and 3 people saying remove it).  BIGNOLE  (Contact me) 12:03, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

Save your personal attacks for someone else Bignole. You said "That discussion you linked to before DID NOT have any consensus for removal of the section." So I provided citations to back my claim up. Please, Bignole, since you seem to know so much about consensus, please define it for me. And policies do not exist to enrich Jimbo Wales. Are you saying that just because PLOT is being used to enrich Jimbo Wales, that does not mean that PLOT poses a conflict of interest? PLOT says articles are not simply plot summaries, but Misplaced Pages has plenty of articles that are simply plot summaries, many of which have survived AFD debates. I know you can often find "real world information" on obviously notable fictional characters. But it is not a requirement in order to have an article. You're free to look through my contribution history if you're wondering what "actual work" I do on articles. And your claim that I want to turn Misplaced Pages into a "fansite" is asinine. But the simple fact is that fans of a topic are often the only people willing to work for free. You created the Traitor (comics) article. And it just so happens that that article fails PLOT. Does that mean that you turned Misplaced Pages into a fansite? Why is it that the biggest policy sticklers are also the biggest hypocrites when it comes to what they actually do in article space? Should we go through Category:DC Comics supervillains and purge every article? Because that is how PLOT is used. Here's the thing Bignole. Editors who cite PLOT in their AFD nominations do not do research beforehand. AFD is not mandatory 5-day cleanup. This is not a sweatshop. This is a volunteer site. Nobody here gets paid to improves articles. WP:DGFA mentions underlying policy, but if a section of policy does not have consensus to be policy, the policy is invalid. Please define consensus for me Bignole. I'm not trying to create a voting system. Misplaced Pages already has plenty of those. It's how admins are selected. It's how arbitrators are selected. It's how articles were deleted before VFD was renamed AFD. I didn't link to 6 people who said leave PLOT alone and 3 people who said remove it. Please Bignole, tell me, in your mind, what would consensus to remove PLOT from NOT look like? I may not know consensus when I see it, but I definitely know no consensus when I see it, and PLOT has no consensus to be policy. --Pixelface (talk) 17:39, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

Again with the hypocricy. You attack me and are just as uncivil, and then feel the nerve to throw that WP:NPA page at ME? Wow. Consensus is based on the weight of the argument, not on the number of people for or against something. When you have people saying, "I think it should go because Misplaced Pages should be as detailed as possible," the weight of that argument really doesn't hold that much water. Since PLOT has been here, you need consensus to REMOVE it. Starting an argument to remove that ends in no consensus does not mean that it should be removed because there was no consensus to keep it or remove it. There are a lot of things that are COI with Jimbo and his other companies. The COI comes in how you apply it and not what it stands for. If Jimbo didn't co-found Wikia, you wouldn't be claiming any COI. Given that Jimbo himself has never actually proposed that fiction related stuff go to Wikia, it isn't a conflict of interest (especially since non of us, as far as I know, actually work for Wikia or are getting paid to push information over to Wikia). Given that just about everything (not 100% all) fictional related on Misplaced Pages is already on Wikia, there really isn't a problem as no one is telling you to move somewhere because it's already there. Again, IMDb, Rotten Tomatoes, many many websites we link to religiously in the EL sections of articles contain advertisements. I don't see you claiming a COI with those sites - which brings me back to the point that you're only bringing this up because of who owns Misplaced Pages. Since Jimbo doesn't promote Wikia OVER Misplaced Pages, nor does he, or anyone else, try and force things from Misplaced Pages to Wikia there is no COI. No one forces a blow-by-blow plot description over to Wikia, we merely inform others that Wikia is not an encyclopedia, nor is it grounded by the same fair-use laws as Misplaced Pages is.

Traitor? Traitor? LMAO. You are really digging deep now. First, I created Traitor my second month editing Misplaced Pages...I had no idea what policies were, let alone what Misplaced Pages's were. This is all I gave the article, and that was where I left it. Since you want to point out what I have created maybe you'll want to actually point to things I created when I had finally gained experience in Misplaced Pages (like: Clark Kent (Smallville), Characters of Smallville, Lex Luthor (Smallville), Lana Lang (Smallville), Lois Lane (Smallville), and Subspecies (film series)). That doesn't even include the countless articles on fiction that I have completely rewritten from scratch and turned into excellent examples of what Misplaced Pages articles should be. Gee, of all those fictional characters, I seem to have real world information on all of them. It was so hard, and I didn't even have to have elongated plots.  BIGNOLE  (Contact me) 17:55, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

You said "Consensus is based on the weight of the argument, not on the number of people for or against something." Oh I see. So the people who decide which arguments have the most weight is based on the number of people for or against something (that person becoming an administrator). Is that right? Sections of policy have to have consensus in order to be in policy. If I add a nonsense section to NOT, you don't need consensus to remove it. It needs consensus to be here. When Hiding proposed adding PLOT to NOT, there was no consensus, so it should not have been added. And Jimbo Wales doesn't have to be the one to propose PLOT in order for it to pose a conflict of interest. You said "If Jimbo didn't co-found Wikia, you wouldn't be claiming any COI." You're probably right, because that is the essence of the conflict of interest. You say we link religiously to IMDb and Rotten Tomoatoes in External links — that's true — but we don't disallow articles about films. Wikia is built on fiction content. PLOT is the tool used to drive fiction content off Misplaced Pages, to Wikia. You created Traitor (comics) your second month editing Misplaced Pages? So why don't you put your money where you mouth is and AFD it for violating PLOT? Should you be given 5 days to make that article compliant with PLOT? Suppose there's a reader on the Internet wanting to find out who Traitor is. Where do they go? The 💕 that anyone can edit co-founded founded by Jimbo Wales? No! Why, that content is against Misplaced Pages policy! Okay then. How about the for-profit wiki co-founded by Jimbo Wales? Oh sure! Readers can go there! They can even write article about fictional characters there! View all the banner ads they want. PLOT is not about elongated plots. It's about plot-only articles being unacceptable on Misplaced Pages, yet magically acceptable on Wikia when presented alongside banner ads. Conflict of interest. --Pixelface (talk) 18:30, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

And it had consensus to be there. First thing you have to realize is, silence equals agreement. There is no minimum amount of editors necessary for consensus. If two people are talking and no one else chimes in, then whatever they decide is consensus (so long as enough time goes by to allow for others to actually voice their opinion). I linked the first time it was added and the original discussion at the top. If you read the discussion what you will note is that people's initial opposition to the section was because they thought it would remove ALL plot information from articles. What you can also gather is that just about everyone seemed in agreement that an article solely containing plot information, or too heavily detailed plot information in an article, was not appropriate. The first time it was ever even challenged was 2 months later by Metalbladex4, who never actually indicated he thought it should go but was vandalizing the WP:NOT page after it was first cited in an AfD for an article on the plot of Naruto I. Given that, there wasn't really a challenge of consensus on it. It wasn't until February 2007, six months later, that someone brought up removing WP:PLOT on the basis of it not having "real consensus". See that discussion, plus the Village Pump discussion. Guess what, at the end of those discussion, do you know what section of WP:NOT was never once removed (I mean, no one went on the page and removed the section at any point before or immediately after that discussion)...WP:PLOT, that's what section. Given that no one involved in the original discussion, when all the wording was figured out, challenged its inclusion after Hiding put it in the article, and given that no one involved in the February discussion (months later) removed it once that discussion was finished, indicates that either there was no consensus to remove the section, OR, that they agreed that there finally was consensus to include it. It wasn't physically challenged until you in March, when you originally cited it as a contradiction to WP:NOR, specifically WP:PSTS. I'm sure you're aware of all the discussions that took place after that, and the many times you attempted to remove WP:PLOT (for varying reasons since March, with each new reason being that perfect reason that would prove WP:PLOT shouldn't be there). So, as I states, the consensus was there for it to exist (we've had the discussions on it, and it wasn't until March 2008, almost 2 years later, that someone decided to actually remove it from the page).

Here is why Misplaced Pages does not accept plot only articles and Wikia does. It is because Misplaced Pages has a non-profit license, which makes them succeptable to issues of fair-use content (kind of like the plot of a film being written blow-by-blow on a page). Wikia doesn't have that problem, because they don't have a non-profit license that they must uphold. It wouldn't matter if there were banners on the page or not, that is merely how Jimbo pays for the website. If he wanted to, he could privately fund the site and still have all those plot heavy articles. The banners are irrelevant. As for Traitor, I don't care if you prod it or AfD or it redirect it. I was never watching it. I edited it for like a day and left it. I've actually had to go back to many of my early articles and clean them up (you should have seen the Subspecies articles before I merged it into a single page). Traitor is a Green Lantern character, and should probably be merged on a Green Lantern page that discusses him (I don't follow comic pages so I wouldn't know where that would be). —Preceding unsigned comment added by Bignole (talk • contribs) 20:19, 27 October 2008

No, it did not. And it doesn't now. And silence does not equal agreement. There have been articles where vandalism has existed for 20 months. That doesn't mean that vandalism has consensus to be there. You said "there is no minimum amount of editors necessary for consensus" but that completely contradicts how administrators and arbitrators are selected. There have been multiple people who have challenged PLOT since it was added to this policy. I can show you the threads on these talk page archives going back to Archive 6. PLOT is currently being used to delete every article about every fictional character. That was not PLOT's intent when Hiding added it to this policy. You claim Metalbladex4 "vandalized" this page, but you don't seem to understand what "vandalism" is. I've been wrongly accused of vandalism myself after I've removed PLOT from NOT. If PLOT had consensus, this AFD would not have ended as keep. And I can name plenty of other AFDs for plot-only articles that ended as keep. Your claim that there was consensus to include PLOT is false. And it wasn't until a little before March 2008 when some editor started going on a crusade against every fictional character, citing PLOT as his reason for deletiohn, after WP:PLOT was used to get rid of all the Pokemon articles. PLOT should have never been used to get rid of the Pokemon articles anyway, because it never had the consensus required to be policy. Misplaced Pages's articles about those characters fall under fair use. There is no legal problem with plot-only articles on Misplaced Pages. And that is not why PLOT was added to this policy. Articles like Baldrick. Articles like Luke Skywalker. Articles like Cosette. Articles like Lenny Leonard. The information is provided for educational purposes. But there is a conflict of interest when Misplaced Pages has a policy that directly benefits Wikia, a profit-generating website, founded by the same individual who founded Misplaced Pages. And how exactly is Wikia allowed to generate a profit off an author's intellectual property? Go ahead and AFD Traitor (comics) yourself. You're the one saying defending this policy, saying PLOT has consensus. If articles are not simply plot summaries as you claim, and plot-only articles make Misplaced Pages an indiscriminate collection of information as you claim, and plot-only articles are what Misplaced Pages is not as you claim, and what Misplaced Pages is not is a reason for deletion, then nominate Traitor (comics) for deletion. Put your money where your mouth is. That you haven't nominated Traitor (comics) for deletion indicates that you're full of it. --Pixelface (talk) 17:14, 3 November 2008 (UTC)

WP:PLOT is a conspiracy to help make Jimbo rich? Wat? Wikia can copy content at any time, even without deletion. There is no conspiracy regarding Jimbo and Wikia making big bucks. Jimbo made his fortune with websites that had pictures of pretty girls, and paid a heck of a lot of money out of his own pocket to help Misplaced Pages get off the ground. I'm sure Wikia is a reasonable business venture, but when I see co-founders going around and doing grunt work (I know this because I've often asked them for help), I think it's safe to say they're not filling pools full of cash and swimming in them. There comes a point where this argument doesn't even make sense. It's not a likely business strategy. -- Ned Scott 06:41, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

• I never claimed a "conspiracy" Ned. Read what I said. And don't distort what I wrote. I said policies do not exist to enrich Jimbo Wales. Now explain to me how a Misplaced Pages policy, WP:NOT#PLOT, that encourages the movement of fiction content to Wikia, the for-profit wiki of Jimbo Wales centered on fiction content, does not create a conflict of interest with Misplaced Pages, run by the Wikimedia Foundation, a non-profit charitable organization. --Pixelface (talk) 05:53, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

• Not only is there no consensus for this, it doesn't make any sense here. The purpose of this page is to list things that should not be in Misplaced Pages. The disputed section does not do this in that it says that plot summaries are proper and valid content here, as one would expect. It seems to want there to be other additional content too but that's a different issue - a positive desire for particular content in a particular style. This page is for negative prohibitions only. It seems clear that Misplaced Pages covers fictional topics and these describe all aspects of that fiction - its production, episodes, plot, characters, reception, sales and so forth. We want it all so that our coverage of the topic is comprehensive and encyclopedic. Colonel Warden (talk) 08:25, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

• • PLOT is treated the same way that "not a travel guide" is or pretty much any of the "not a guide" ones. Some content of a travel guide is includable, but writing articles in the form of a travel guide without the history, significance, and influence of locations and landmarks is not appropriate. In the same fashion, elements of plot guides are appropriate, but writing on the topic of a fictional work in the form of "plot summary guides" without the creation, impact, and influence of the work is not appropriate. Arguably, this puts it in the wrong section (it should go in the previous one), but that doesn't invalid PLOT as to be included on WP:NOT somewhere. --MASEM 08:39, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

• The travel guide section doesn't make a lot of sense either. Travel guides normally have quite an encyclopedic feel and routinely describe the geography, history and significance of the places that they describe. It's the how-to material that we don't want: phrase-books, exchange-rates, prices, phone numbers, etc. The equivalent for books and films would be show times, stockists and other material intended to facilitate purchase or consumption of the material. This is not a problem and seems adequately covered by WP:NOTADVERTISING. Colonel Warden (talk) 09:30, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

Yes, it may be implicitly covered by other policies. But, the eagerness of many editors in removing it shows, how much liberty is expected when the policy ceases to spell it out explicitly. It needs to be there, very much, more for practical reasons (the real reason behind most policies and guidelines) than theoretical nuances. Aditya 12:26, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

• No. My experience is that this admonition has little practical effect. When considering articles such as One Ring, the touchstone most often used is notability, i.e. the extent to which the plot point is covered by sources. The consensus is therefore that we may have as much plot as the sources will support. A blanket NOT PLOT is wrong, is not supported by consensus and so has no practical value. Colonel Warden (talk) 13:00, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

The section makes perfect sense if you understand it correctly. The point is that we should not be having pages with just bloated plots and nothing else. Misplaced Pages is not a substitution for watching or reading these paid programs. You want to know what happens in a film, go buy a ticket. Plots are for context with real world information.  BIGNOLE  (Contact me) 12:27, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

• You are again confirming that Misplaced Pages may contain plot. Saying that it should not contain too much plot is a stylist point on a matter of degree. It may be corrected by adding other related material as much as by removing plot and establishing the balance is too complex and situational to cover here. Since we are concerned to correct bloat, we should remove this uncertain prescription from this page per WP:CREEP. Colonel Warden (talk) 12:47, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

• What? Bignole are you really arguing that because the plot of a movie requires $$$$ to go see, we shouldn't cover it here? Could you explain what you are basing that on (policy, law, general sense of how things should work, something else?). That's a novel argument as far as I know. Hobit (talk) 21:45, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

• All of the recommendations under "Not a guide" (where I think PLOT should be moved to), are not describing content that is inappropriate, but a style that is inappropriate. WP is a general encyclopedia, a specialized encyclopedia, and an almanac, but it is not a textbook or guidebook, so all of these, as a group, define the bounds of how material should be written about. There's absolutely no problem with any clause in NOT pointing to other policy or guidelines for expansion (in PLOT's case, to WP:WAF), but given this is one of the key policy pages, it is necessary to at least point out that there is an style approach that all articles need to take, including those on published works, that make the coverage appropriate for an encyclopedia. --MASEM 13:03, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

Just to chime in with my opinion - Leave WP:PLOT alone. Nothing in this latest round of discussions has led me to change my opinions from any of the prior times this question has come up. Encyclopedia articles should focus on the social impact and real-world relevance of covered topics. Minor plot elements and discussions may illustrate those real-world points but full plot regurgitations are not what encyclopedia articles are about. Rossami (talk) 16:32, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

• Articles are not required to demonstrate social impact or real-world relevance and you will struggle to find much of these in our many articles about mathematics, for example. Please explain where you are getting this prejudice from as it does not resemble my experience with encyclopedias nor our general principles. Colonel Warden (talk) 19:01, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

I believe by "social impact" and "real-world relevance" Rossami means something along the lines of people reporting on the subject in more than just a superficial manner (i.e. someone telling us what the plot of a film is), and by "real-world relevance" I think Rossami means any information that has to do with the real world (e.g. the production of a TV episode, or what went into writing a book). At least, that was how I interpreted Rossami's statement, but I will leave it up to them to clarify.  BIGNOLE  (Contact me) 19:13, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

Which is crazy talk IMO. If there are secondary sources that cover "plot" then "plot" should be here. This notion of "real world" being important to an encyclopedia is hard to understand. We have articles on fictional topics, and plot is clearly the central part of fictional topics. Nearly by definition. To remove plot from fictional topics is like removing context from historical topics: no one will have a clue why it's important. We don't cripple our coverage of any other topic in quite this way. Look at a movie review. It is mostly about plot. It may be "just" a rehashing of plot or it may include criticisms of plot. It may also cover acting, but generally how the actor doesn't manage to convey the character. And the character is an element of the plot... Things like production information and costs and the like are largely second order to the vast majority of our readers. Hobit (talk) 21:39, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

Secondary sources that cover plot do not justify having a plot only article. Jason Voorhees is a fictional topic, but the "plot" information is relatively small compared to the real world information. The plot information should not be the "central" part, because that insinuates that it is the most important. It isn't. It has importance, but it is not the most important thing. You cannot give some broad opinion like "this is secondary to the vast majority of our readers", when you have no actual evidence to back that up. You don't know what are readers are looking for. This is still an encyclopedia. Secondly, and I don't know why this is so hard to people to understand, WP:PLOT does not say "no plots". It refers to plot only articles, or articles with blow-by-blow details of a plot. It does not have anything to do with removing all plot elements from an article. Would people please stop trying to apply this extreme to their arguments because it makes no sense since that isn't what the section refers to.  BIGNOLE  (Contact me) 21:49, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

You can get a good idea of our readership by looking through the stats on article hits. Articles about fictional characters like Batman and Naruto are way up there, doing better than John McCain, say. The idea that Misplaced Pages shouldn't cover fiction comprehensively is shown to be a nonsense and the idea that Misplaced Pages is not the news is an even bigger joke. The number of hits for these topics is up in the millions and so the tiny handful of fiction-hating fanatics here is utterly unrepresentative of our readership. Colonel Warden (talk) 22:48, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

Again, missing the point. You cannot make a statement like "production information is secondary to our readers " without actual evidence. Showing me statistics that indicate that people are "viewing" a page more than others and then try and extrapulate that into defining what they are actually looking at on the page. If you actually look at that stat page, first 8 actual articles are all on real life things (people and events). The first fiction page is The Dark Knight film (which has a 700 word plot and about 7000 words of real world information). Then you have to go 15 more real life articles to get to Batman, the first fictional article after The Dark Knight. It's like that all the way down. So, even your argument doesn't make any sense because out of the first 25 pages, only 2 are on fictional topics. So, no, most readers aren't even reading fiction related topics (which wasn't the point of my argument with Hobit's state that production information is secondary to plot information in readers' minds) - and thus your argument that showing that they were (when they weren't) is moot, because even if they were it still wouldn't prove that they are reading those articles for the fiction content.  BIGNOLE  (Contact me) 23:11, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

• I have to agree with Bignole, it does not matter how many hits an article gets, because this is not an indicator whether the readers are getting what they need. If an article does not provide analysis, context or criticisim drawn from reliable secondary sources, then clearly they are not getting the type of encyclopedic information that they should be getting from Misplaced Pages.--Gavin Collins (talk) 08:53, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

• Just to chime in, I agree we should leave WP:PLOT alone. As fictional coverage is a thorny topic, and this is at the policy level, I interpret WP:PLOT as best employed for articles that are just regurgitations of the story that make no effort to be encyclopedia articles. Fletcher (talk) 15:59, 31 October 2008 (UTC)

Do we really want to be this inclusive?

"It is appropriate to report discussion and arguments about the prospects for success of future proposals and projects or whether some development will occur, if discussion is properly referenced."

Which Journal of Prophecy is an acceptable source? BrewJay (talk) 08:04, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

How about the beliefs of market commentators about unreleased products? We had a hell of a lot of discussion of "Windows Longhorn" before Windows Vista was released, for instance. --FOo (talk) 08:40, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

WP:CRYSTAL seems to be geared away from topics so controversial as the future. There's just no way to really know anything about the future until it gets here, so {{prophecy}} is inherently unreliable. Even talk pages are not really discussion forums at all. I looked at the words with a sharp eye for holes and I see that worms hav been eating policy voraciously. Maybe I should look for a very old version of the section. Now, if you can tell me about qualities in Longhorn before Vista is released, then go ahead. Extrapolating Longhorn to Vista would be garbage.BrewJay (talk) 12:20, 29 October 2008 (UTC)

Nobody could sensibly hold a position that states that, for example, an upcoming election is non encyclopedic, so from this and the lurid coloring you added to the page, it is clear that you are engaging in content vandalism. If you continue to do this you will be banned.- (User) Wolfkeeper (Talk) 14:46, 29 October 2008 (UTC)

The example currently given of United States Senate elections, 2010 is quite non-encyclopaedic and should be removed. Material of this sort contravenes WP:NOT#NEWS and WP:NOT#JOURNALISM as well as WP:CRYSTAL because it is political speculation and current affairs reporting. Such speculative topics are unsettled by definition and so not appropriate content for an encyclopedia which aims to present well-established facts. Your proposition that editors who hold this view are not sensible and should be blocked as vandals is absurd and uncivil. Colonel Warden (talk) 18:07, 29 October 2008 (UTC)

The section makes an explicit exception for the next upcoming election. My colouring is appropriate for words that go without saying among things that should definitely not appear in articles. Arguments and discussion should mostly be on USENET, IRC, and e-mail. What I find most troubling about the section is that a great deal of text in it contradicts the title. BrewJay (talk) 15:06, 29 October 2008 (UTC)

Either you're trolling, or you don't understand what 'verifiable' means. It doesn't mean we can check that the events will happen precisely as the article states; it never, ever means that in the wikipedia. Verifiability over truth, right? No, it means that we can check that the statements in the article are ones made by people on this particular topic. We're not looking for an article to predict things, we want an article that reports or describes what others say about it, people that are generally agreed to be trustworthy.- (User) Wolfkeeper (Talk) 15:19, 29 October 2008 (UTC)

Who said anything about "verifiability over truth"? If what someone says isn't falsifiable, then it can't be written either way, and I don't care who says it. In other words, if I can't find out, now, if what someone says is true for myself, then it isn't reliable. If it isn't reliable, then it doesn't belong here. You can still say it, and it doesn't belong here until it's a fact. BrewJay (talk) 15:37, 29 October 2008 (UTC)

"Who said anything about "verifiability over truth"?" Well, the opening sentence of Misplaced Pages's core policy on verifiability, for one. Sarcasticidealist (talk) 17:29, 29 October 2008 (UTC)

I don't think a herd of lawyers will ever make me distinguish verifiability and truth. Do you value reliability? Do you understand why it's a component of verifiability? If I can't test something, then it's not verifiable. Comprendez? If Bill Gates says that MicroSoft will go belly-up tomorrow, would you check into whether that's true or would you sooner discover that he's selling shares in his corporation short. BrewJay (talk) 06:52, 30 October 2008 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Verifiability#Exceptional_claims_require_exceptional_sources is relevant to the reliability of statements about the future.

Proposal: WP is significant news.

I've seen fights citing "Misplaced Pages is not news". The actual policy quote is "Routine news coverage of such things as announcements, sports, and tabloid journalism are not sufficient basis for an article."

We should clarify that "Significant news is the basis for an article". This would help. It wouldn't change keeping trivial news from being a Misplaced Pages article.

The alternative, which I hope people will not advocate is "Significant news is prohibited in Misplaced Pages." Chergles (talk) 20:42, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

Even a "significant event", defined as being covered in many reliable sources, may not really warrant an article; events should be given a bit of time to make sure that it is really an impacting incident that requires wider coverage or that it may be part of a larger story (For example, the recent Subprime mortgage crisis is a case where there were a lot of "significant events", but each one does not warrant coverage on it's own, such as the actions taken against Fannie May and Freddie Mac). --MASEM 21:04, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

Should we re-examine the concept of "Misplaced Pages is not news". Many people cite it. Has there been a discussion to whether this is a fundamental Misplaced Pages point? It's certainly not one of the five pillars of Misplaced Pages. If a strict definition of "impacting event" is used, then much of Misplaced Pages should be deleted. How about the video game articles? What I am questioning is whether the Misplaced Pages is not news idea should be kept? If kept, should it be better defined to guide debates? Chergles (talk) 17:22, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

WP is not to be used to simply report on events without analysis; there is a sister site, Wikinews, that allows for this under the free-content medium. And it is not that news necessarily disappears, but usually what happens is that the event coverage is molded into the coverage of a "time-less" topic; eg Joe the Plumber or any number of hurricane articles. For example, there's no article on the nationally covered collapse of the I-35 bridge in Minnesota, but there is an article about the bridge and that goes into depth of the event's impact (I-35W Mississippi River bridge). Basically, the thing with news items is that running out to create a topic just because it got a piece of news coverage is ill-advised; there is likely a place that a piece of news coverage can be placed permenantly though with the possibly of a seperate article if the news coverage becomes much more significant. (a good question to ask is, where are you seeing "not news" being evoked in a manner you disagree with?) --MASEM 08:53, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

I would have to oppose that change. The word 'significant' is far too subjective and open to misinterpretation. ('Routine' is hardly better but at least that's a problem we already understand to some degree.) The problem is that 'significance' can almost never be properly determined at the time. Significance is a value judgment that can only be made with the perspective of time and history. That means we should wait before writing the article. Editors who want to write about the latest breaking news should be working at our sister project, WikiNews. Just like Misplaced Pages, they're always looking for more good editors. Rossami (talk) 16:37, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

I don't see a conflict with the way things are right now. Misplaced Pages isn't news, but the fact that it's not news or a newspaper shouldn't preclude the creation of content that includes recent events. -And it doesn't. What would be gained by following your suggested change? Can you clarify with a likely scenario? --VictorC (talk) 17:53, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

Like the hundreds of poorly maintained articles about flash-in-the-pan topics which are neglected, out-dated and impossible for our critically-short cadre of experienced editors to monitor for vandalism or to find sources to update? The articles which accumulate subtle vandalism like "corrections" in the number of shooting victims and other very hard-to-verify (or dispute) changes? Articles that try to cover overly recent events do not demonstrate that they have the power to attract the critical mass of informed and interested editors needed for long-term support. The argument that 'it can be verified' ignores the fact that we don't have enough people to actually do the verifying - and to keep doing it forever.
The power of Misplaced Pages is that it's a dynamic and constantly updated encyclopedia. That's also one of its more serious weaknesses. We don't have a version that can be fully verified and 'locked in'. Articles have to be patrolled forever. Diverting resources on articles that don't matter - that don't rise above the level of news to the level of encyclopedia content - that will kill the project. Misplaced Pages is not paper, server space is so cheap that it's virtually free. The one scarce resource that we have is editorial time. We have to protect that. Rossami (talk) 03:28, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

While I understand and sympathize with the spirit of this proposal, we need something clearer than "significant". The present NOT doesn't do any bertter in this regard. There has never been a really accepted guideline here for interpreting this. DGG (talk) 15:51, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

Rampant Use of These Criteria in Talk Pages & Individual User Pages?

I am a little concerned about the use of these criteria (which seem to be intended to apply to actual pages, not "talk" or "user" pages) as a basis for editors swooping in and deleting sentences, sections, and other items. If I'm mistaken, please correct me. I hope this is the appropriate place for my entry.

It seems to me the criteria are not intended to stifle the freedom of expression of we, the editors, which takes place in areas like talk pages, user pages, and personal areas of Misplaced Pages not set up to serve as part of the Misplaced Pages itself. I find this a little alarming. I recently became aware that not just a few editors are relying on this 'What Misplaced Pages is Not' page (and perhaps a few others) as a basis for swooping in out of the blue and deleting miscellaneous entries. Many of these deletions are without adequate explanation, only citing a short abbreviation. I have yet to see any that have occurred with at least a "heads up" or some kind of notification to the original editor or the Misplaced Pages community.

MIND YOU, this has to do with editing of personal "talk" pages, user pages, and Misplaced Pages "talk" pages. It seems to me a blatant overzealousness to extend these rules to those sections of Misplaced Pages. So here is a request for clarification. Do these rules extend to "talk" pages or not. If so, why do they extend that far, and doesn't it restrict people from have a free exchange of ideas if this is so? Thanks for your participation. --VictorC (talk) 18:44, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

This policy extends to all of Misplaced Pages. In particular, WP:SOAP, WP:NOTBLOG, and WP:NOT#HOST, explicitly mentions talk and user space. But the rest of the policy also applies, if you are using your user page as a directory for whatever, then an editor could complain with basis in WP:NOTDIR. Taemyr (talk) 19:17, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

Thanks. How would this apply in light of Talk Page Guidelines (editing other's comments)? My analysis of the main jist of this is that there is a basic requirement to get permission of the author before acting. I can see that this would make more sense to elucidate the situation by educating the author and allowing the author to edit the comment individually, or at least defend the veracity of the comment (or user entry) to justify it to the editor concerned with a perceived "What Misplaced Pages is Not" infringement.

I've seen other editors eliminate statements of other authors (sometimes only a sentence) supporting positions that they disagree with using these criteria as justification. I have seen other editors eliminate entire pages of research from userspace not only with no permission, but with no communication or explanation (other than a three to five letter abbreviation). This is frightenly coarse and disturbing. Is this truly the spirit of these criteria? I hope not. --VictorC (talk) 19:57, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

The spirit is in the liquor store; here, if a rule can be stretched, it is stretched. WP:NOT is a very stretchable rule, and WP:AGF prohibits you from even thinking of response unless you have a larger pack behind your back. If not, don't feel disturbed, it's OK, just see that you contribute more than the deletionists can delete. Cat and mouse, you add, they delete. With your rate of 20-40 edits per month the cats win. Anyway, storing anything valuable, especially research, on wikipedia user pages is imprudent. P.S. Unsolicited moving of other users' stuff from userspace to mainspace is equally common and disturbing. NVO (talk) 21:21, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

Thanks. You aren't giving weight to Talk Page Guidelines (editing other's comments)? --VictorC (talk) 22:46, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

Sure, weight is given to that. But if some user has a copy of a non-notable article squirreled away on a talk page so that he can edit-war more easily, deleting it isn't "editing another's comments", because the content wasn't a comment at all. Same thing for keeping a complete database of BitTorrent download sites for every Disney Channel show, complete program schedules for television networks, etc. Just putting a "User:" or "User Talk:" on the article name doesn't make it invulnerable to deletion.

So, to win an argument, can someone just delete an entry from a talk page, citing "not a forum?" This is one thing I'm very concerned about. --VictorC (talk) 01:32, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

That would have to be pretty extreme to be acceptable. Can you give me a diff?—Kww(talk) 01:37, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

If you mean this, I think the other editor was out of line.—Kww(talk) 01:41, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

Not really: deleting an entry does not hide past versions from public. Deleting whole pages does and can be appealed and reversed. Not a forum is indeed a very out of line reasoning and should be reverted. Again, seek consensus (i.e. the pack behind your back) before reverting. NVO (talk) 08:48, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

No, if the comment in some manner pertains to how the editor thinks the page should be improved, then the comment should never be deleted. We are technically a forum on each article's talk page, but only a forum on how to improve that article; nothing else. The example Kww showed is a very inappropriate use of NOTFORUM, and the editor that removed it should be reminded of this - users should not refactor parts of other users comments save in extreme cases of courtesy blanking. Users that engage in too much refactoring and deleting along these lines should be brought to WP:ANI or other means of dispute resolution. --MASEM 08:59, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

Well, when you say "users that engage in too much refactoring and deleting ..." too much means exactly what? Obviously once or twice isn't too much. Maybe it is, but that is why I am asking. This seems to be a way some editors are using to win, quell or stifle talk page interactions. --VictorC (talk) 14:52, 31 October 2008 (UTC)

Even once or twice should be warned against, if the text being edited or deleted is even loosely connected to improvements of the article, and further aggravation beyond that should be brought to the admins to deal with. --MASEM 15:17, 31 October 2008 (UTC)

Well. This has been done twice by another editor. I just reverted and restored the two conversations on the Talk:Joe the Plumber page. The editor immediately left something on my talk page about how the discussion didn't belong there. I am now letting you know. I am not an administrator. I can't issue warnings. --VictorC (talk) 12:52, 2 November 2008 (UTC)

Assuming you're talking about this edit, now we're getting into murky water. The initial question raised in that section ("should Joe be called a "plumber" even though he lacks certain qualifications?") is a valid question to be addressed, but as noted, that point was addressed in the article, and for the purposes of the notability of Joe (the political aspects, not the exact nature of his profession), not a significant point as a few others raised and would bear no change in the article. That question is valid, but your following insistence after several pointed out its doesn't matter, and after RedPen asked to stay on topic, make it questionable. And note that he didn't delete the comments but moved them to your talk page, still providing a link to that, so its certainly not censoring or the like. If, instead, he removed that whole section and didn't provide any relocation or the like, that would be more of a concern, but this is a completely reasonable approach in context here. The point here, per NOT, is that we're not a forum - you present your ideas for improvement but if its clear that it will not be added or the like, you don't keep insisting that it does, or at least until you can provide a different light for your case. I am certainly not blaming you for any breach of policy that requires any sort of admin action, but you may want to read some pages like tenacious editing to get an idea of directions one should avoid taking in talk page discussions that basically help to keep discussions away from WP:NOT#FORUM. --MASEM 13:58, 2 November 2008 (UTC)

Not exactly the event I was talking about, although that was a part of the situation. I apologize for my ineptitude with linking to stuff. Here is the stuff I restored. I didn't restore the stuff that was erased from Redpen's talk page.

Yes, it was part of the article as a result of OUR discussion. To put some context on this, the discussion started with how a plumbing license was even a factor. It was a factor since it was a news item and kept on getting added by numerous editors (not me). This was made difficult when an extraneous editor (who hadn't even been editing the page or discussing anything on the talk page prior) came into the mix and accused the entire discussion of being "silly." It wasn't. I was able to draw conclusions from the discussion that added to the article. This resulted in my updating the section of Plumbing_career to reflect the result of the discussion. The discussion WAS fruitful. Then the discussion increased focus on what Joe's position was within the plumbing profession. This is where a few editors didn't see any point and where there was significance. However, there is a point because this effected the whole explanation for the discussion that came immediately before. Specifically, I was stipulating that there is an actual difference between the job of "plumber" and "plumber's helper." This discussion was resolved, and the information from the discussion (that Redpen altered) became part of the article. This discussion was ALSO fruitful, resulting in clarifying that Joe is a "plumber's helper," further illuminating the article's reference why there is no record of his being licensed (no need). Doesn't that show that the discussion was part of the talk page topic?

The second instance (which you didn't really see yet) was chronologically the first. It was a discussion under the talk page topic of Qualifications which were in relation to the article section on Draft Campaign. The congressional seat is up for the next election. Joe the Plumber is being groomed by the Republicans as a possible candidate to run against his current representative (a Democrat). The topic that Redpen altered was to do with a potential candidate's qualifications, his ability to fulfill the requirements of a congressional representative. This was the first incident (with no admonitions) .

I tried to discuss this on the user's talk page, and the user just deleted the entire discussion . I treid to restore the conversation, and he ignored me and just deleted it again . I realize a user's talk page is private, and personal. I just don't see how that is a good way to either finish or quell a discussion.

So, basically this isn't anything I should be concerned about. I appreciate you paying attention to this, and I apologize for taking up your time. Thanks so much for your service. I realize more now that admins have a difficult job. --VictorC (talk) 15:22, 2 November 2008 (UTC)

Don't worry about taking up time; asking questions is better than nothing. Basically, in this situation you are both right - on any other article, I'd not remove the discussion, but given the volume of info on Joe the Plumber in the current timeframe, I'd take RedPen's erring on that side to keep side related discussions down. Nor was it outright censoring, which is generally where I'd be cautioning about talk page refactoring abuse. --MASEM 15:38, 2 November 2008 (UTC)

Proposed addition re using Misplaced Pages to post hacking info

As we all know, many internet sites have protected/restricted access requiring authentication through user ID's and passwords. Having encountered a SSP posting passwords on a Talk page to access a protected webpage, I propose the following policy addition to Misplaced Pages is not a manual, guidebook or textbook:

Misplaced Pages is not a hacker magazine, and shall not be used to disseminate passwords or encryption keys to access restricted/protected websites. -  JGHowes  15:58, 29 October 2008 (UTC)

Would this not already be covered by WP:COPYVIO? --MASEM 16:06, 29 October 2008 (UTC)

I would have gone with Misplaced Pages:Vandalism but COPYVIO is probably better. Either way, it's clearly a bad-faith edit under current rules. Revert it when you see it and consider escalating for a block if the user persists. Rossami (talk) 16:26, 29 October 2008 (UTC)

Do we need a rule? How often does it happen, and how would having a rule affect things? Having one would not stop these additions, because the people behind them don't read the rules. Nor does a rule seem necessary to authorize people to deal with such things, as Masem and Rossami courteously demonstrated above. So thank you for the sentiment, but we seem to be handling things all right and making additional rules should be approached with reluctance as we WP editors are human and not very good at keeping things from becoming an incomprehensible morass of restrictions. --Kizor 06:27, 30 October 2008 (UTC)

I don't feel we need to post such an addition. WP:COPYVIO covers it nicely, as does the already-stated WP:NOT a Manual. I can't see anyone wanting to post such material being able to challenge either. If there's an actual problem with users posting such material (I haven't noted any myself), and a real concern, then an actual policy to cover this (with penalties spelled out) would be better than burying it among a bunch of guidelines. 23skidoo (talk) 14:27, 30 October 2008 (UTC)

I've read through WP:COPYVIO and there's nothing there explicitly covering the divulging of passwords to protected websites. WP:NOT is policy, and not just a "bunch of guidelines", so I don't understand your objection. By the reasoning that violators don't read rules, so why bother?, then what's the point of having WP:NOT at all? And yes, there are cases, viz., this.  JGHowes  16:39, 30 October 2008 (UTC)

Let's see if I can explain the legal theory. I am not a lawyer but I think I understand this well enough to attempt the explanation.

1. WP:COPYVIO doesn't explicitly call out passwords because it doesn't need to. Passwords are themselves copyrighted. (They're published materials - they automatically inherit copyright just like everything else.) Unlike the text of a document, passwords can not be paraphrased or restated in your own words. Any use must comply with one of the acceptable 'fair use' exceptions to the copyright laws. However, there are none that would ever be likely to apply to a password in the context you describe.
2. The protected website contains protected content which, by definition, the content owner has not elected to disseminate publicly. Distribution of the access credentials needed to impersonate your way onto the site (the password) would facilitate the violation of the copyright of the protected content. The Digital Millennium Copyright Act has some interesting lessons that would apply here since passwords are an accepted form of protection of copyrighted work. Under DMCA, any act of dissemination to circumvent the protective measures would be a violation. Note that the DMCA criminalizes the act of circumventing the access control whether or not there was an actual violation of the copyright itself.
   Now, you can argue over whether DMCA is a good law, whether it strictly applies to this scenario or to what degree any party inherits liability but a plain reading of the legislative intent makes it clear that the US Congress intended for copyright protection to extend to password-protected content. It's an example of a clear social standard that expects passwords to be kept secret and that the principles of copyright ought to apply.

The bottom line is that there's no legitimate reason why someone should be sharing those passwords on a Misplaced Pages site. Whether you call it a copyvio, vandalism or something else, it's clearly not a good-faith edit.
As to why not to explicitly add it to this page, that's because instruction creep is a serious and continuing problem for us, especially on this page. It's already far longer and more complicated than any of us really want. Rossami (talk) 17:54, 30 October 2008 (UTC)

Another proposed addition

Section saying that wikipedia is not C.S. Lewis's N.I.C.E organization from his 1947 sci-fi book That Hideous Strength. This fictious organization was actually based on the problems that Lewis saw in his Oxbridge world and many of his colleagues. Same sort of niceness creep seems to be happening on wikipedia. In Lewis's N.I.E. organization policies like WP:AGF and WP:CIVIL would be used to instill fear in those did not conform in tediously minor ways. --Firefly322 (talk) 14:07, 30 October 2008 (UTC)

Already covered in "WP is not a battleground", I believe. --MASEM 14:14, 30 October 2008 (UTC)

Suggested addition

• Misplaced Pages is NOT the Council of Nicaea. In 325, the Roman Emperor called a council of Christian bishops at Nicaea that was responsible for determining what beliefs widely practiced then were heresy, and what beliefs were to be approved or required for all. A neutral encyclopedia such as wikipedia cannot play any such role; its purpose is not to settle doctrinal disputes or issue pronouncements in an active controversy, but merely to report faithfully on what the various actual positions and viewpoints have been. Misplaced Pages recognizes that there is a diversity of world views and philosophies in the world today which do not always agree, and ideally it will make no attempt to ensure rigid conformity with any one set of ideas, nor will it declare ideas widely held by others to be false, without attributing this opinion to those who hold it. All ideas are to be given due weight in proportion to their significance to a given article.

Comments? Unfortunately, there still seem to be a few editors who, firebrand in hand, seem to see this project as a sport, going after one idea after another that they may not like or subscribe to, but that are widely held by other schools of thought, and denying them due weight, while enforcing their own favorite viewpoints which they try to redefine "neutral". This "pushing" behaviour completely defeats the whole concept of having a "neutral encyclopedia". Til Eulenspiegel (talk) 14:40, 2 November 2008 (UTC)

I believe this is fundamentally Neutral point of view? (plus, the reference to Nicaea I'm sure is going to be lost on most, if this was to be included it needs to be simpled down.) --MASEM 15:17, 2 November 2008 (UTC)

Yes, there is nothing new here, and no new departure from policy; this is fundamentally WP:NPOV. I think because this is a cornerstone policy that is rampantly abused, it needs to be strengthened here by amplifying it. I have explained Nicaea as simply and succinctly as I know how but am open to suggestions if it can be made still clearer. Til Eulenspiegel (talk) 15:34, 2 November 2008 (UTC)

Objections: 1. Can you say the same without the framework of a particular religion? Misplaced Pages is not Talmud, neither Sharia. 2. The balance between "worldwide view" and "nor will it declare ideas widely held by others to be false" should be in the minds, not in the policy. You're opening a can of wikilawyering worms: Me and Jack held it false, hence speedy delete. Basically, it's imposing arbitrary censorship instead of consensus editing. NVO (talk) 19:10, 3 November 2008 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages is not a reliable source

Although citations to reliable sources are required by Misplaced Pages policy, we still do not make any guarantees that all Misplaced Pages content is reliable or accurate. Within the scope of the reliable sources policy, citations in articles themselves should not be other Misplaced Pages articles directly.

This good? ViperSnake151 20:15, 2 November 2008 (UTC)

That's not actually what Misplaced Pages:Reliable sources says. Your second sentence, though, that citations should not self-refer is correct. I don't think it necessarily belongs here though. It might fit better in Misplaced Pages:Avoid self-references. Rossami (talk) 02:42, 3 November 2008 (UTC)

Plot and sourcing?

Do plot summaries need sources? In my experience, within the vast majority of articles on games, films, and novels, the "plot summary" section is almost always by far the longest and most poorly written section of the article (and often inaccurate). Additionally, since plot summaries are straight from the source, they never have any citations. Could plot summaries be marked for cleanup or even pruned or deleted entirely as unsourced and unencyclopedic material? Some guy (talk) 22:35, 2 November 2008 (UTC)

Plot summaries should be sourced, even if from the original work (using transcript or dialog to support it) though secondary sources should be used if possible; however, outright deletion of a plot summary section for lack of sources is never appropriate since it can be sourced. Generally, we're lax about that until the article starts in the GA/FA process which then sourcing becomes necessary. --MASEM 23:09, 2 November 2008 (UTC)

Plot summaries are sourced by the films themselves (primary source). Rarely will you find a secondary source that gives the level of detail that Misplaced Pages does. Plus, unless you are directly quoting the entire summary, you cannot source that much personal wording (i.e. on Misplaced Pages we tend to really paraphrase huge events down into a couple of sentences). The FA process (at least none that I have been a part of) does not require that a plot section has a source physically present, as the source is implied (so long as there is nothing of interpretation listed in the plot section. i.e. only bare, observable facts). See WP:MOSFILM.  BIGNOLE  (Contact me) 23:18, 2 November 2008 (UTC)

I've found ever fiction-based FA I've put forth gets feedback asking for some sourcing of the plot. Not a lot, obviously - certainly not for each sentence, but any key turning points in the story usually should have something. Now, maybe video games are different from movies in the sense that movie plots are pretty much self containing in 2 hrs while a VG may require condensing material from 10-40hrs to a few paragraphs. --MASEM 23:24, 2 November 2008 (UTC)

• Self-written plot summaries are orgininal research. --Gavin Collins (talk) 00:01, 3 November 2008 (UTC)

I agree with Gavin. Would it be practical to update the rules and guidelines for plot summaries to require at least some sourcing, and secondary sources where possible? I think this would greatly increase the quality standards of articles on works of fiction. I have definitely seen articles that have inaccurate elements in the plot summaries. Without sourcing standards, it is difficult to maintain a high level of accuracy in summaries. I recall a fair amount of edit warring over Death Proof while it was still in theaters; some (I presume) vandals were attributing an important action to the wrong character, and all debate about the subject consisted entirely of "no, this is what happened" until I deleted that portion of the summary entirely. Some guy (talk) 00:07, 3 November 2008 (UTC)

Self written plot summaries use primary sourcing which is specifically allowed for in WP:NOR for descriptive cases such as this. You can verify the details without being any kind of an expert on the subject. Bill  00:25, 3 November 2008 (UTC)

Yea, self-written plot summaries are as much OR as the general process of summarizing secondary sources for any WP article - in other words, there is nothing wrong with that. As long as primary sources are allowed for providing additional verifiable information beyond what the secondary sources provide, self-summarized plot summarizes are completely appropriate. --MASEM 00:35, 3 November 2008 (UTC)

Gaven, original research is when you introduce ideas not supported by sources. Writting a plot summary, based on the film, and only reporting the observable facts (e.g. Batman apprehends the Joker) is not original research. Now, it may not have a secondary source saying that, but not having a secondary source for an observable fact and introducing your personal opinion unsupported by a source is not the same thing. WP:NOR is pretty clear about what is and what is not "original research". Film and TV plots are, as is pointed out by many, sourced from primary sources (the show itself). It is redundant to put a physical source in the plot section when the information presented in such a source is already listed in multiple locations of the article (in other words, there isn't a policy that says you must have in-text citations, thus the plot typically never gets one). There is no policy that says all sources must be secondary, only that secondary typically is better (depending on the actual information being presented). Some guy, just because people mistakenly attribute an action to a character doesn't mean you need a secondary source to prove it. I could cite a book, and without a url (which isn't mandatory), anyone without said book could challenge it as wrong. Someone will always come around (like yourself) and noticed that someone mistakenly (or maliciously) has placed incorrect information in a plot section. A secondary source won't change that. Hell, I've read critical reviews of films where a critic has mistakenly attributed actions to the wrong character, or identified some element inaccurately.  BIGNOLE  (Contact me) 01:14, 3 November 2008 (UTC)

Okay, that all makes sense. Guess I was being stupid. Sorry. However, I think a secondary source is still beneficial in some ways. I guess this really only applies for web sources, but it's much easier to verify information by looking at a review or something online than getting out the book or DVD (assuming you own it) and finding the right section... even worse for games, since a player might need to beat many hours of gameplay to confirm or disprove that such-and-such really does happen (though cheats can simplify this matter). Anyway, thanks for opinions and such. I'm still interested in hearing what others have to say, if anyone else wants to comment. Some guy (talk) 02:23, 3 November 2008 (UTC)

We should encourage using secondary sources when possible, but most media rarely have their full plot iterated out - just enough to flavor a review or the like. Only works that become academic study typically gain full plot descriptions in secondary sources. Now, the primary source templates for fictional works do have the ability to narrow down where certain quotes are used (eg, you don't just source the work and say "check it yourself", you provide a quote or two to confirm the relevant point.). --MASEM 02:33, 3 November 2008 (UTC)

Providing a quote is just as needless if you're saying, "Go watch the movie to verify that a character says what I say they are saying". With or without the quote, you're still telling people that they have to go watch the movie just to verify that the quote is accurate. Secondary sources, no matter how much better they could make something, only make plot sections better if they are in the form of a url that anyone can view. We encourage secondary sources for information other than the plot, because the basic plot of a movie rarely, if ever, receives any form of academic coverage. What does get written about is a character, a theme, or some other element within the overall plot. In such case, whenever someone is discussing said element they will typically discuss events in the plot that coorborate their theory. But, as I said, this is why we do not require secondary sources for plot descriptions because their general overviews that are written entirely from the words of Wiki editors and sourced through the primary work (the film or TV show or game).  BIGNOLE  (Contact me) 03:58, 3 November 2008 (UTC)

• I still have a big problem with plot summaries. I agree with Some guy when he says that "within the vast majority of articles on games, films, and novels, the "plot summary" section is almost always by far the longest and most poorly written section of the article (and often inaccurate)". The reason for this is that they are usually original reseach, often in the form of an essay. Bignole says that original research is when you introduce ideas not supported by sources, but the only way you can show that your edit does not come under this category is to produce a reliable published source that contains that same material. Basically it is down to the contributing editor to prove that the plot summary is not original research. --Gavin Collins (talk) 10:17, 3 November 2008 (UTC)

• The primary source is the proof as it provides a method of verifying the content in the article. It doesn't have to be a secondary source if it is a descriptive claim with no analysis or conclusion. It is possible for anyone to view the content to see if what is written is factual. There is a large number of articles with plots that are too long or inaccurate, but that is a separate issue to whether primary sources can be used for plot summaries. Bill  10:58, 3 November 2008 (UTC)

• Indeed. As WP:RS says, Primary sources are considered reliable for basic statements of fact as to what is contained within the primary source itself (for example, a work of fiction is considered a reliable source for a summary of the plot of that work of fiction).. Colonel Warden (talk) 11:07, 3 November 2008 (UTC)

Exactly. Gavin, what you are doing is trying to claim that plot sections need sources with a url attach that will allow you to verify the information. I can attribute any "secondary source" that I want, but YOU still have to follow up with it to verify that I interpreted correctly. If I use a book to cite the plot of a film, then if you don't have the book you'll have to go out and get the book to verify it. That is in no way different then if I cite the actual film. You're trying to push a particular format of citation, one with something that you can view on the spot; that is something that we have never, and should never force on any editor. It is not anyone's responsibility to find a source that was published on the internet so that Editor X can easily verify the information. Yeah, I know you didn't say "published on the internet" specifically, but since I've already explained in a previous comment that if we cite a book it's the same thing, I figured you couldn't possibly be arguing the same comment over again and that by "reliable published source that contains that same material" you must have meant published and easy for you to view (i.e. something on the internet). P.S. Just because a section is poorly written does not mean that is the fault of the "sourcing" it is using. I've read plenty of articles with tons of reliable sources down the board and the entire article was poorly written. Generally, that gets corrected with articles that are going through the FA process, and as far as I'm aware there are no film articles that are FA that have outside sourcingin the plot (maybe one or two of the articles on older films that are out of print). What you'll also not find are those "poorly written" plot sections in those FA articles. If the plot section is poorly written, there's a good chance the entire article is poorly written. The two generally go hand-in-hand.  BIGNOLE  (Contact me) 12:08, 3 November 2008 (UTC)

• Its a convenient assumption that "the primary source is the proof", but an unfortunetly falsehood, alas. Any source (even the subject matter) should be cited clearly and precisely to enable readers to find the text that supports the article content in question. Editors should cite sources fully, providing as much publication information as possible, including page numbers when citing books. That is rarely done, and the result is original research. --Gavin Collins (talk) 18:49, 3 November 2008 (UTC)

• Lacking citations is not OR, it's just poor Verification. --MASEM 18:53, 3 November 2008 (UTC)

• It is stretching the imagination to say that plot summary without citiations is not original research. If a thief breaks into your house and steals your cash, you would want some damn good eviedence that it was not a burglar. Plot summary without citations is original research. --Gavin Collins (talk) 20:01, 3 November 2008 (UTC)

Revisiting PLOT

There is a good point that Colonel Warden has brought up in response to an AN/I I put on Pixelface for the latest removal of PLOT.

A key issue here is that PLOT, as written, makes a plot-only article the same type of article that would not allowed per the general notability guideline per WP:N since it will lack secondary sources and thus fail that. WP:N is a valid reason to delete an article, but not WP:PLOT. Now, as Col. Warden points out, the main reason PLOT is here is because plot retellings (including character descriptions and the like) are derivative works, and as such can harm the free content mission of WP. However, we know we have to have some plot description to thoroughly cover the work at hand. We also strength the fair use aspect of a derivative plot summary by adding other factors that are academic and educational, such as the development and reception of the work or elements therein. Thus, presuming that PLOT is not present to create reasons to delete articles (leaving that to WP:N) but instead to make sure we are providing minimal but sufficient non-free descriptions of a fictional work and in context of the encyclopedia, maybe we need to reconsider calling it PLOT, and, as Col. Warden suggested, considering it as a means to avoid excessive copyright issues from the standpoint of free content (not, and I repeat not, from any legal standpoint; we should not worry about the copyright cops, only the philosophy of free content).

Col. Warden suggests a NOTCOPY, but maybe this is better spelled out like it is: Misplaced Pages is not a collection of extensive derivative works (DERWORKS for the time being). The ideas remain the same: plot summaries are concise, and we want such augmented with secondary information. However, an article that is presently a extensive derivative work of a work of fiction can nearly always be fixed

Mind you, this still leaves articles that may contain a concise plot, but only a concise plot, as ripe for deletion through WP:N (pending a possible FICT rewrite that has been floating around). I don't see any way of directly separating what may happen from WP:N from PLOT, or DERWORKS, or whatever - WP:N asserts a plot summary of any time cannot exist alone. I think we're always going to have this perceived overlap that occurs for articles on fiction. I agree that we should ween the use of PLOT/DERWORKS as a reason for deletion -- though certainly cleanup is necessary.

To the point: an article that has extensive plot summary will fail this reworked guideline - that doesn't mean deletion, it means trimming the fat of the long summary and adding some context to dilute the use of the summary for academic and education goals. This doesn't prevent a deletion challenge from WP:N, but should prevent articles from being deleted outright due to failing WP:PLOT/DERWORKS. --MASEM 18:28, 3 November 2008 (UTC)

I think is probably a more concise way of saying what has generally been practice all along. That is, we've always had overlap between WP:NOTE and WP:PLOT about the existence of articles that are just plot summaries, not matter how short the summary is. I think rewording the the section will help keep editors from using both in tangent when they are proposing an article for deletion (as is often down with the current WP:PLOT).  BIGNOLE  (Contact me) 18:55, 3 November 2008 (UTC)

PLOT disputed?

I think at this point that it's pretty obvious that PLOT is a disputed guideline. I'd like two things:

• A suggestion about how to label that one small part of one section as disputed without making a mess of it.
• A general consensus that we've hit disputed land.

Thanks, Hobit (talk) 19:41, 3 November 2008 (UTC)

You cannot claim "it's obvious that it's disputed" and then ask for a consensus that it is disputed. It's obvious that some editors don't like it, but what is not obvious is that there is no consensus to keep it. All of that doesn't matter anyway, because, if you look above, you will see that a new discussion on how to reword WP:PLOT to be more representative of practice and remove the option of using it as a means for deletion is underway. Thus, a discussion about removing WP:PLOT is irrelevant and unnecessary to the discussion about rewording it completely.  BIGNOLE  (Contact me) 19:51, 3 November 2008 (UTC)

I said I think it's obvious. Thus I'm asking others. I agree I could have been more clear, sorry. And I have serious doubts that the above is either a good way to go or one that will get consensus. And I didn't claim there isn't consensus to keep it (though I believe that) rather that I think we've hit a point that it's clear that it is disputed in a non-trivial way. Hobit (talk) 20:00, 3 November 2008 (UTC)