Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 06:14, 6 November 2008

Please don't criticize other users in your comments on this page. You can post such criticisms on your own talk page, (if appropriate), and put a message here asking me to read them there.

☺

Welcome to my talk page. Messages that are welcome here:

• politely-worded criticisms of my behaviour (but please see procedure below if you're thinking of posting criticisms of other users)
• calmly-expressed differences of opinion
• questions about how to edit Misplaced Pages
• just saying hello or whatever
• etc.; I like getting that "you have new messages" banner.

Re criticism of users other than myself: If you're having problems with another editor, I'll probably be happy to look into the situation, but please follow this procedure.

• consider not posting any criticism of another editor. It's possible to ask for help without criticizing anybody.
• Please don't post any criticisms of other editors on this talk page, (because I don't want to be indirectly responsible for such), but instead post them on your own talk page or the talk page of the other user (assuming it isn't inappropriate to do so); I suggest being as diplomatic as possible.
• you're then welcome to put a link from this talk page to such comment. (See Links or Simplest diff guide, or just tell me the name of the section on which page)
• when giving the link, please avoid posting any words of criticism on this page. It's fine to say "see comment critical of user X at (link)" but please don't say things like "see comment describing disruptive behaviour of user X at (link)".
• You might also consider emailing me.

One way to leave a message here is to click on the "new section" tab at the top of this page. Sometimes I reply here, sometimes on your talk page, etc.; feel free to let me know which you'd prefer.

Archives

Archive 1 Archive 2 Archive 3 Archive 4 Archive 5 Archive 6 Archive 7 Archive 8 Archive 9 Archive 10 Archive 11 Archive 12

Your kind note

Thank you, your kind words are much appreciated. Jayjg 02:33, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

Thank you

Hello Coppertwig. Thank you for your kind note. Regards, Masterpiece2000 (talk) 02:48, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

Isaac Brock notes section

Hi CT. Yes, if you want to wikilink the notes section, that would be a big improvement! The FA review has been extended on the grounds that work is still being done on the article, so now I have to finish all my planned improvements that were on the back burner.. They must do this just to get more work out of us :-). EdJohnston (talk) 15:30, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

I guess I will. I had a disappointment: I was writing a program so I could add the links using semi-automated editing. I can preserve the special characters and everything while copying the wikitext onto a computer and running it through a Perl script, but I haven't found a way to copy it back onto Misplaced Pages without messing it up. I may have to wait until I have a private Linux account working again in order to do semi-automated edits fully-automated edits using pywikipedia. Meanwhile, I'll add them by hand. Not difficult for the one article, but if I can do it automatically or semi-automatically I may be able to do a lot of articles. Thanks for the reminder. ☺ Coppertwig (talk) 15:36, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

OK, done, at least for the Tupper refs. I'm not sure if any others need to be done, unless maybe they're re-arranged to have only a short note in the footnote. ☺ Coppertwig (talk) 16:00, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

That was fast! Article looks good now. Since I have a Mac which runs Unix and Python, maybe I could do pywikipedia from here. Consider offering your Perl script for others to look at; you could put it on a user subpage. EdJohnston (talk) 17:16, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

It's nothing much yet. It will need lots of tweaking to work well on a variety of articles. ☺ Coppertwig (talk) 18:06, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

QuackGuru

Good luck with your communication attempts, and thanks for the help. --Elonka 16:05, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

(ec) You're welcome! Thanks for your message! ☺ Coppertwig (talk) 16:20, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

Possible sockpuppetry

There is this IP adress, 81.109.11.33, which makes a series of edits on Dharma that I revert. A user by name user:Langdell reverts my edits to the IP address's version, and then the series of edits from the IP address continue. I think that Langdell may be masquerading here justo show that more than 1 people agree with his version of the article. This has been happening in the Revision history of Dharma since 19 July 2008. Can you just check it out ? Indian_Air_Force (IAF) (talk) 16:35, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

The total number of edits by the IP and by Langdell is small, so I don't think it's a problem at this point in time. Even if it's the same person, maybe Langdell simply forgot to log in. Forgetting to log in is allowed as long as it's not used to gain advantage. Even the IP and Langdell combined are nowhere near 3RR.

I notice that you haven't explained on the talk page the reason for your edits. I suggest doing that. ☺ Coppertwig (talk) 18:04, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

That I have done, in the section right above Langdell's created one. But the pattern that I talked about has occured twice :- An IP address makes a series of edits. Then I revert them, only to be reverted back by Langdell. After this, the IP's edits continue. If this repeats, I'll let you know. Indian_Air_Force (IAF) (talk) 08:44, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

I don't see where you explained your edits. Are you talking about Talk:Dharma? Could you give me a quote of a few of your words so I can find the section you're talking about?

You said "Hence, this direct upfront attack by questioning or demanding my identity in this manner, is a crass attempt at a personal attack. This desperation..." I suggest avoiding words that are likely to evoke negative emotions. If you think there's a personal attack, you can ignore it or you can say "personal attack", but there is no need to say any more: no need to say "direct" or "upfront" or "attack" (repeating the word which also appears in the phrase "personal attack"; saying it once is enough) or "crass" or "desperation". I think it's also better to discuss personal attacks in a friendly way on the user's talk page, not on the article talk page. ☺ 10:50, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

I've discussed the article here, which is now archived (I did not realise this earlier).

Your suggestion about "avoiding words that evoke neg emotions" is noted. But Langdell has used such language too like, "disruptive interventions of IAF" and later going on to question/demand my identity - a discussion that's nothing to do with the article's topic. Even if devoid of some adjectives, this was equally if not more evocative of "negative emotions".

Earlier too I have very politely requested this user on his talk:page here sometime in December last, urging him to discuss the article instead of posting 'warnings' and threats on my talk page. Even at that time he was simply reverting my edits without a word of explanation on the talk page. So his behavior is all the more un-wikipedia like. Indian_Air_Force (IAF) (talk) 07:38, 3 August 2008 (UTC)

Noted. (However, please see the request at the top of this talk page about how to post comments critical of other users.)☺ Coppertwig (talk) 23:58, 3 August 2008 (UTC)

Chiropractic

Your comment avoided answering the question.

Did you comment on Dematt's talk page to deflect attention away from my question?

Here is a reply to your question. It would be inmpossible to suggest a wording that everyone agrees upon. There is no need for attribution which would water down the sources.

Here is the question below.

This edit by Levine2112 was inaccurate because it was more than Keating. What do you think about the misleading edit. QuackGuru 18:32, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

"What do you think about the misleading edit" is a leading question, therefore I won't answer it directly. There is no need to answer this question directly. If the text in the article is misleading, it can be changed to different text. There's also no need for me to comment on the current text in the article, as I've already commented on it and as there are currently negotiations going on to change it to something else. Gleng's suggestion, which I mentioned, takes care of the complaint that there is more than one source, not just Keating. I answered at Dematt's talk page for several reasons: because you had posted something there which I felt required a response in the same place; and because I thought you would be likely to see a reply there; and because I thought you might not know what part of Talk:Chiropractic the edit I was referring to had been suggested in; and because I thought you might not see a comment if I posted it in that section of Talk:Chiropractic since many people have trouble keeping up with all the discussions there and I didn't think you had been posting recently in that section. By replying to your post on the same page as your post I certainly didn't intend to deflect attention from your question; in fact, I've been trying to get you to post about these things at Talk:Chiropractic so we can all discuss all sides.

When I say a version everyone will accept, I don't mean necessarily a version everyone will be happy with, but at least a version that everyone can accept as a compromise and not keep reverting. I think that's quite possible; and that WP:CONSENSUS urges us to try with good faith to reach that type of solution. ☺ Coppertwig (talk) 18:48, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

You wrote: If the text in the article is misleading, it can be changed to different text. There's also no need for me to comment on the current text in the article, as I've already commented on it and as there are currently negotiations going on to change it to something else.

The discussion on the talk will water down the text even more. It might help this matter if it was reported to the neutrality noticeboard for outside commentary.

There is a need to comment on the current text when it is misleading and a violation of one of Misplaced Pages's core policy, NPOV.

When NPOV violations continue there is a need to continue to discuss it per WP:DR.

Changing it to something else as suggested on talk will water down the source even more.

The current text is an NPOV violation and can be discussed. Do you agree it is misleading to state that it was just Keating when it was not. QuackGuru 19:20, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

Instead of commenting on the disputed wording, I've suggested another alternate wording here. (And my later correction.) Please help to find the wording which will evoke the smallest amount of objection from Wikipedian editors considering policy etc. Please comment there and suggest other alternate wordings. I see no need to report anything to a noticeboard at this time (other than the SYN question we've been working on) because discussion is proceeding and seems to me to be getting somewhere, but if you wish to report to a noticeboard I have no objection to your doing so. Please make your concerns about watering-down part of the discussion if you haven't already, and please suggest some alternate wordings that you don't consider to be watered down, trying to accomodate the other objections at the same time if you can. ☺ Coppertwig (talk) 16:39, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

The word researchers does not imply all researchers. If we are going to use attribution then researchers is the most accurate and neutral. Removing the attribution would also resolve this too. QuackGuru 01:08, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

First we need to figure out which sources support the statement. ☺ Coppertwig (talk) 01:10, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

Your edit was an NPOV violation to claim it was only Keating. QuackGuru 16:57, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

We have a 3RR noticeboard. Maybe a new noticeboard called something like 3RR NPOV violation noticeboard would resolve issues like this quickly. If there are 3 NPOV violation edits to the same specific content then it would be reviewed when editors consider it an easy to identify NPOV violation. This is clearly an NPOV violation. We can start a draft for a new noticeboard and admins can take action against NPOV violations. In the beginning the focus would be on the edit and not the editor. QuackGuru 18:15, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

I think NPOV is best enforced as it is now, by consensus of editors at the page and with occasional RfC (article content) and questions at noticeboards etc. I think we need to be wary of any system that would allow admins to make rulings on article content. Nothing wrong with admins, but the number of them is smaller and I think NPOV is better served by consensus among a larger number of people. See User talk:Ronz#Discussion. Anyway, it's good that you're thinking about how the system could be better designed.

I'm working on posting a list of quotes from the references, on which we can perhaps base a re-written version of that sentence.☺ Coppertwig (talk) 18:31, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

When edits like this stick in mainspace there is clearly a problem with the system. If it is not broken don't fix it. But the system is broken at this point. We are not going to get agreement on the text that is NPOV. NPOV is not enforced. Something needs to change. Misleading information on Misplaced Pages is allowed to remain in the chiropractic article. QuackGuru 19:26, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

See my reply above. ☺ Coppertwig (talk) 19:32, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

So far the NPOV violation continues to remain in the article. The chiropractic article is broken. It should be fixed. Attribution waters down the text. QuackGuru 01:06, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

See if you can think of a good wording that won't be considered to require attribution. I'm just going to try to think of a new suggested wording now. ☺ Coppertwig (talk) 01:10, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

There is already a good wording. Attribution is unnecessary and is currently misleading. We can't attribute text just because some editors don't like what the reliable sources say. How long will the misleading information remain in the article. The longer it remains in the article the more broken Misplaced Pages has become. QuackGuru 01:38, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

What do you think is the good wording? Do you understand what others object to about it? Can you explain their/our POV about that? Can you find wording causing the minimum amount of objection from all Wikipedian editors? I'm just trying to think of some wording now. ☺ Coppertwig (talk) 01:44, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

Removing the misleading attribution is good wording. Others object because they don't like what the source says. We are here to write an encyclopedia and not a promotional ad. How many days will the misleading text remain. This does not look good for the editors who added the misleading information against NPOV. QuackGuru 01:54, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

How is attribution "misleading"? If someone said something, it's true to say that they said it. We've been discussing on the talk page wording that acknowledges that more than one person said stuff. And I'm trying to think of other suggestions. ☺ Coppertwig (talk) 02:09, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

The current attribution claims it was only Keating. It is more than one researcher. QuackGuru 02:20, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

Please comment on my new suggested wording, which I just posted at Talk:Chiropractic#Antiscientific: suggested wording of sentence. Please help tweak it. Please comment there. (Here too if you like.) This suggested wording doesn't imply only one researcher. ☺ Coppertwig (talk) 02:25, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

You asked how long the information would remain in the article. One answer is: until we get a consensus or rough consensus on new wording, at least as strong as the rough consensus that supported the current wording. ☺ Coppertwig (talk) 23:32, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

Your new suggested wording is difficult to understand and flows poorly. I disagree with a rewrite.

We don't need a new wording and you don't have consensus for the current wording. Dematt claimed he has not decided yet and you claimed there is more than one researcher to verify the text. I can provide the evidence if needed. QuackGuru 02:09, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

What do you suggest we do? ☺ Coppertwig (talk) 10:50, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

I think you are going to do what you want despite me explaining you don't have consensus or you are watering down the text or adding hard to understand text. QuackGuru 17:33, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

If you make specific suggestions for improvements, especially in the appropriate section of the article talk page, they can be considered along with everybody else' in forming a compromise or consensus version. I don't know how to translate "watering down" or "hard to understand" into specific different words for the article; it would be better if you would suggest alternative versions of the sentence.☺ Coppertwig (talk) 23:43, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

What you added to the article was very poor writing. I don't understand the text. It would be better if you reverted your edit and removed or fixed the misleading text saying it was only Keating. I strongly object to your edit. It was not an improvement. You written over quality text and now it is much worse. The text was fine except for the Keating part. I did not see any reason for a rewrite and the rewrite makes no sense. QuackGuru 01:15, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

Your new proposal is understandable. I made my suggestions at chiro talk. Do you have any specific suggestions for the middle of the spectrum. QuackGuru 18:15, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

I think we can take this edit to the NPOV noticeboard unless we can come up with a compromise. Outside editors can review both versions and decide which is closer to NPOV. QuackGuru 23:45, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

Logicus

Coppertwig, as someone who has tried to convince User:Logicus to avoid personal attacks in the past, would you be willing to explain to Logicus why edits like this (see the end, especially) constitute personal attacks? I've asked him to be civil and avoid personal attacks (see User_talk:Logicus#Please_be_civil), and rather than let it go, he demands that that I provide the same details I've already provided to him about what constitutes a personal attack or "withdraw" the claim that he has made personal attacks. Cheers--ragesoss (talk) 19:58, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

Thank you.--ragesoss (talk) 02:38, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

Analog hole

Hi Coppertwig. It seems that the user you interacted with a few month ago - 71.100.x.x - is back at analog hole, and this time, inserting links to his wikibooks:analog hole article, which contains some of the exact links that were removed previously. The editor has some personal issues with me () due to an AfD (), so I'd like your opinion on the WikiBooks issue before this turn into an edit war. Thanks! --Jiuguang (talk) 21:03, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

Hi. I read parts of the discussions at the links you give. I'm not sure if I want to give an opinion on the content dispute. May I suggest WP:3O? Or WP:Dispute resolution. Note that the editor has a right to edit the article and I'm not aware of any reason why the user shouldn't insert links. Please state your case very clearly on the article talk page, and maybe give me a link to where you do that. I'm sorry I can't be more helpful than that right now. However, feel free to ask again if the situation gets worse. ☺ Coppertwig (talk) 01:20, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

Sorry - see bottom of Talk:Analog hole. I'm try not to have a repeat of User_talk:Coppertwig/Archive_7#Message_to_71.100.x.x. --Jiuguang (talk) 01:49, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

Dharma

Hello coppertwig. Thankyou for your attempts to harmonise the edit on the subject of the article dharma. It may be true that editors choose anonymity but please be kind enough to take time to look at User:IAF's talk page. If you do not do this I am afraid that we cannot get anywhere. Please also note that I am the principal editor of Ajahn Munindo's last book 'Unexpected Freedom'. Ajahn Munindo is a senior representative of the Theravada Buddhist religion in the West. He is the abbot of Aruna Ratanagiri Buddhist Monastery. I can assure you that a teacher of Ajahn Munindo's eminence would not invite and then request assistance in putting a book together from someone who did not know what he was talking about. I hope (and assume) that since you have intervened you have some knowledge of this subject yourself. In order to improve the article I need the assistance of someone who actually knows something about this subject. I am very sorry but I shall be unable to enter into any dispute with the user in question. He has more than adequately demonstrated his true colours in the past. My only desire is to further knowledge of this subject because it is one in which I just happen to have a better than average understanding. The User:IAF has a long history of anti-social behaviour. You can only know this by seeing how many times he has been blocked. If you would like to help me improve the article dharma, you are most welcome. Best wishes.Glenn Langdell (talk) 18:04, 3 August 2008 (UTC)

Welcome, Glenn. It's good to have an editor knowledgeable of the subject. Actually, I know nothing of the subject. I think the page came to my attention at the 3RR noticeboard and I've been acting sort-of like a neutral referee, not making judgements about which version is better. I might or might not continue to do that.

Please treat IAF in a respectful manner. If the other user doesn't reciprocate, that will be obvious. Also, please see my request at the top of this talk page about how to post criticism of other users.

According to the verifiability policy, material should be supported by reliable sources. I hope you'll be able to add more references to improve the article.

Feel free to contact me again. I'll try to remember to keep an eye on the article. ☺ Coppertwig (talk) 23:58, 3 August 2008 (UTC)

Look, from personal experience, most editors who have a "gudge" against my edits bring up the issue of past warnings and "past behaviour" to further their view-point. I don't think that that is applicable while editing articles because an article's discussion must contain content solely about the articles improvement or furtherment. A User's identity, his User:page being blank, past block-log etc. are totally irrelevant to the discussion at hand.

So I request you that whatever decision you make further about the article involving me and Langdel/anyone, it should ONLY involve my (and the other user's) recourses to action that are taken for that article only. Any other aspect/attribute should not be entertained or taken as a mesure of forming opinion or enforcing something. In my case, I have previously invited Langdel quite respectfully to enter the negotiation round, and have put forth a detailed reason for my edits (now in the archives). Indian_Air_Force (IAF) (talk) 08:09, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

I agree. I have no special authority to make decisions: decisions are made by consensus. However, I agree that a discussion about article content should be only about article content (and about what the references say, how reliable they are etc.) and not about user conduct, and that if user conduct is to be discussed (usually on that user's talk page and other venues, not the article talk page in my opinion) that past behaviour or behaviour at some other article are generally not relevant to decisions about that article. Editors should work together and try to reach consensus. ☺ Coppertwig (talk) 11:09, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

thank you

Actually, they weren't rhetorical questions at all and I appreciate your help. Those were the kind of questions that stymied the article in question. ChrisO, being an administrator and knowing the ropes, was able to search for more individuals to lend weight to his view, and when there was no consensus proceeded to tie the article up with these complaints. This is not a good way to proceed. I did not know one could do an RfC on article content. Perhaps that would be the way to proceed with this article. Thanks again for your guidance. Tundrabuggy (talk) 13:24, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

Yes, without knowing much at all about the article, but from the RfC and stuff, I have the impression that RfC (article content) and questions at reliable sources noticeboard would be an excellent way to proceed. I'm not sure if I've ever done one of those, actually, but I'm willing to help you figure out how if you like. There are probably straightforward instructions. Part of the key is writing a clear, concise question; if the question is too long or convoluted you might not get anyone answering. Sometimes (usually?) people work together on the article talk page beforehand to agree on the wording of the question to be asked. ☺ Coppertwig (talk) 13:35, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

I've replied

I've replied at my talk (with another question, of course!). Thanks for your message. Antelan 02:30, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

Block duration

Hi. Just wondering, did you at this comment for the benefit of the IP because it wasn't explicit in my note? No problem, just interested if there was another reason. Cheers TigerShark (talk) 14:42, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

Yes, it was primarily to assist the blocked user, since no duration was specified in the block template. I believe there have been one or two times when users didn't know their blocks had expired until I told them; they may have been expecting a notice to be posted when the block expired and assumed they still couldn't edit. It could also be informative to anyone else who looked at that talk page. ☺ Coppertwig (talk) 14:48, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

OK, thanks. TigerShark (talk) 15:28, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

Mentorship

Hi, Coppertwig. Are you currently mentoring for QuackGuru? -- Levine2112 19:59, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

I see you left a comment on QuackGuru's user page. I'm generally happy to look into situations when asked, for just about any Wikipedian, insh spare time. ☺ Coppertwig (talk) 21:35, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

Please review this discussion when you have the time. You'll see a general consensus to includes the text at Atropa belladonna. The dispute is mainly between myself and ScienceApologist, but several other editors have been involved in the months-long discussion. QuackGuru has never participated in the discussion. However, he has three-times reverted me with less-that-accurate edit summaries. -- Levine2112 18:21, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

OK, I read that discussion. I see that there seems to be consensus to include one neutral sentence on homeopathy in the article. However, your edit was changing from one sentence about homeopathy to a different sentence about homeopathy, or even (I forget; you could put a link here to your edit for convenience) to more than one sentence about homeopathy. I see no evidence that there was consensus for your change. I consider that a normal way of doing things at Misplaced Pages is bold, revert, discuss, and it seems to me that that's what QuackGuru is following: you've been bold and made a change, QuackGuru has reverted it, and now it's up to you to begin discussing and justifying that specific change; since as far as I've seen you haven't done that yet, then QuackGuru is justified, in my opinion, in reverting it again if you put it in. The discussions I saw were about whether homeopathy is mentioned at all, not about the difference between one version mentioning homeopathy and another version mentioning homeopathy. After you provide justification on the talk page for your edit, then in my opinion QuackGuru should not do any more reverts unless either QuackGuru or others have refuted your arguments on the talk page; preferably, in my opinion in this situation, there would be a discussion leading to a mutually acceptable or compromise version.

Perhaps there's a misunderstanding: perhaps each party sees their version as being NPOV and therefore supported by the discussion asking for a "neutral" sentence, and doesn't understand that the other doesn't see it that way. This would need to be made explicit in talk page discussion.

The three reverts you linked to were spread over a period of many weeks.

Re "vendetta": Please follow the request at the top of this talk page when posting here; and please assume good faith.

I hope the discussion will go well; and I hope you'll feel free to ask me to look into the situation again if things deteriorate. ☺ Coppertwig (talk) 22:51, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

First, thanks for the long, well thought out reply. Second, let me assure you that conversation about the context of the included text has been ongoing for nearly six months now. The most recent conversations can be found here. QuackGuru has never participate in any of these conversations. My issue here is that QG has a tendency to follow me around to random articles just to revert my edits without participating in discussion. He did it again today . I don't think this is about who's version is more correct and I don't think QG is practically interested in this. His goal seems to be one of annoyance. But that's just my opinion. I really respect you as an editor, Coppertwig. I hope you can at least see where I am coming from here, even if you don't agree with me and let your mentee know how his tactics are being perceived. Anyhow, I appreciate your time and input always and if there is something in this matter which you think I can improve on, please don't hesitate to tell me. -- Levine2112 23:51, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

Thank you, Levine2112, for taking my post in a positive spirit. However, in the section you link to there, I don't see any mention of the specific edit in question. I suggest that you quote, on the talk page, the entire previous version of the sentence and the entire new version, and in the same post state reasons for changing one to the other. I think it's a good idea to try to put a complete, well-organized argument into one post; then later you can link back to that post if you need to.

I'm under the impression that you didn't read the part of my post that's in small font, which directed you to the request at the top of my talk page. I've just edited the top of my talk page to make the request clearer: it now says "Please don't post any criticisms of other editors on this talk page." You may post such criticisms on your own talk page and provide a link to them here.

I suggest re-reading WP:DR and discussing the matter diplomatically, and in a manner which shows that you are assuming good faith, with QuackGuru on QuackGuru's talk page. ☺ Coppertwig (talk) 00:09, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

Sound advice once again. Thanks. Please note that I have removed some text above per the top of your talk page. -- Levine2112 00:29, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

Thanks! Sorry, I forgot: you've already posted a message on QG's talk page. No need for more such messages unless problems continue. ☺ Coppertwig (talk) 02:06, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

Here is another example of QuackGuru reverting one of my edits on an article in which he has never participated in discussion. -- Levine2112 05:31, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

I think what QuackGuru did was OK: QG posted to the talk page shortly afterwards, and anyway QG had referred to talk page discussion (by others) in the edit summary; although the discussion didn't particularly support QG's position, in my opinion. ☺ Coppertwig (talk) 13:08, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

Note also there is currently a RfC and a WP:FTN for the article. --Ronz (talk) 14:05, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

Coppertwig, take a look at some of the refs. There are some refs that are unreliable and extremely old which is a violation of WP:MEDRS. This reminds me of chiro talk. The older refs have been removed. Higher quality refs are available. This is unduly self-serving to use primary sources that are an opinion in a controversial topic. The text needs a rewrite. For now it should be deleted or moved to the talk page. At chiropractic we don't use chiropractic studies to explain the effectiveness of chiropractic. We use various higher quality studies. It starts with the higher quality studies first. Self-pub sources are being used in an unduly self-serving way. QuackGuru 17:36, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

Template talk:Db-blankcsd/new

Seems misplaced.... --MZMcBride (talk) 02:37, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

Template talk:Db-blanktalk/new too. --MZMcBride (talk) 02:38, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

There are many templates "db .../new". They are listed at Template talk:Db-blankcsd/new. Only two have been deleted, and their talk pages still exist. Please don't delete Template talk:Db-blankcsd/new because it contains a list of all the other templates, which will assist in deleting them; but the other talk page can be deleted because its associated template has been deleted. I see I made a mistake with all the links to the talk pages, though. (fixed.) Soon I may put in a TfD to discuss deleting all the /new templates, though maybe not if one of the major contributors to those versions of the templates prefers to keep them. See Misplaced Pages talk:Criteria for speedy deletion/Archive 30#Deleting "new" templates, which are no longer needed. ☺ Coppertwig (talk) 13:18, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

Rationale for deleting these:

• T3: In my opinion, they could be deleted under CSD T3 if they were tagged for 7 days. They were hardcoded copies of the same templates as the standard templates, and are now redirects from unlikely names.
• Two already deleted: Template:Db-blankcsd/new was speedy-deleted as "(G6: Housekeeping and routine (non-controversial) cleanup: db-r3)", and Template:Db-blanktalk/new was speedy-deleted as "(csd r1)". Rather than gradually speedy-deleting these one at a time as users happen to discover them and request speedy deletion, I suggest it's more efficient to delete them all at once.
• Not needed: The GFDL is already satisfied because of null edits that were done to the standard templates listing the contributors to the /new templates. I don't think there's anything in the links from discussion to these templates significantly more interesting than, for example, a statement that draft templates have been created to be worked on. While I think ideally their page histories will be merged with the standard templates, this can, I think, still be done after they're deleted anyway if anyone has the time to do it.
• General rationale for deleting things: One could argue that deleted pages still take up space on Wikimedia's servers, but the important thing is editors' time, not the small amount of space these take; and as far as space is concerned, deleted pages can be completely deleted by developers if they need space, while undeleted pages take up space not only on Wikimedia's servers but also on many mirrors and in many download dumps of Misplaced Pages. Pages can also be targets of vandalism, and may take up peoples' time when they run across them on "what links here?" and wonder what they're for. Coppertwig (talk) 16:27, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

As one of the contributers to the new CSD template system, I have no objection to the deletion. עוד מישהו Od Mishehu 08:02, 24 August 2008 (UTC)

I also have no objection - tidying up exercises like this are long overdue. I'll G7 all the templates that we are the only contributors to, we can TfD the rest. Happy‑melon 11:45, 24 August 2008 (UTC)

Opinions

There's no such thing as a "non-admin opinion". The opinions of all editors count. Comments that are insightful and backed by evidence may count more, but who makes the comments is not relevant (unless it's a single purpose account, a sock puppet or a banned user). Jehochman 01:56, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

Thank you. However, when I was helping on the 3RR noticeboard I found it very helpful to let people know I was not an admin; otherwise they assumed I was, and it made a difference because admins could do things I couldn't. I had a feeling a similar situation might arise with the particular comment I made on Elonka's talk page. I prefer to try to proactively avoid receiving comments like this. I don't usually append those words to my comments, though, even on admin noticeboards. Logically, a "non-admin opinion" is simply the opinion of someone who is not an admin. However, I appreciate your comment. ☺ Coppertwig (talk) 02:09, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

Generally, when people start saying "I thought you were an admin" or "Why aren't you an admin," that's when you should stand for RFA. At some point the admins will think you're a bother going to them for service and say, "Here, do your own mopping up." Being a non-admin is a luxury. Jehochman 02:23, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

Stopping by

Moonriddengirl has smiled at you! Smiles promote WikiLove and hopefully this one has made your day better. Spread the WikiLove by smiling at someone else, whether it be someone you have had disagreements with in the past or a good friend. Cheers, and Happy editing!
Smile at others by adding {{subst:Smile}} to their talk page with a friendly message.

Hadn't crossed your wikipath in a while, so thought I'd stop in and say hi. :) And also comment how strange I find it that the drawing board has practically dried up! For a while there, I didn't feel like I could go on wikibreak without asking somebody to babysit the board (as you know, since you kindly pitched in). We used to get multi-questioners a week. Now we're down to multi-questioners a month. Wonder why?

Hope you're well. :) --Moonriddengirl 15:29, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

Must be a link somewhere that's been changed. Can the Drawing Board be found somehow from the Main Page? I don't know if you want it more easily found or not.

Speaking of Drawing Board, though, I'm working on three draft articles at the bottom of my sandbox. (I-message, Federation of Women Teachers' Association of Ontario, and Caroline Andrew.) Well, I'm not sure if I need any specific help, but if you feel inspired feel free to comment or contribute. The main thing I'm wondering is whether I have sufficiently reliable sources for I-message, but I'm just doing the best I can do there. (Haven't really started writing the text yet for that one, except the first sentence.) ☺ Coppertwig (talk) 16:41, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

Hello

Hello and greetings; replying to the message you left on my talk page. A twig that will grow into a shrubbery will make an adequate replacement for a shrubbery. BTW, from a brief perusal of your pages, I'm guessing we live in the same country; can't narrow down our proximity further. --A Knight Who Says Ni (talk) 13:07, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

Request for participation in User:Abd/RfC

Because my participation as a Misplaced Pages editor has been questioned, and if I continue as I have in the past, I can expect future challenges as well, I have begun a standing RfC in my user space, at User:Abd/RfC. There is also a specific incident RfC at User:Abd/RfC/8.11.08 block. I understand that you may not have time to participate directly; however, if you wish to be notified of any outcome from the general or specific RfC, or if you wish to identify a participant or potential participant as one generally trusted by you, or otherwise to indicate interest in the topic(s), please consider listing yourself at User:Abd/RfC/Proxy Table, and, should you so decide, naming a proxy as indicated there. Your designation of a proxy will not bind you, and your proxy will not comment or vote for you, but only for himself or herself; however, I may consider proxy designations in weighing comment in this RfC, as to how they might represent the general community. You may revoke this designation at any time. This RfC is for my own guidance as to future behavior and actions, it is advisory only, upon me and on participants. This notice is going to all those who commented on my Talk page in the period between my warning for personal attack, assumptions of bad faith, and general disruption, on August 11, 2008, until August 20, 2008. This is not a standard RfC; because it is for my advice, I assert authority over the process. However, initially, all editors are welcome, even if otherwise banned from my Talk space or from the project. Canvassing is permitted, as far as I'm concerned; I will regulate participation if needed, but do not spam. Notice of this RfC may be placed on noticeboards or wikiprojects, should any of you think this appropriate; however, the reason for doing this in my user space is to minimize disruption, and I am not responsible for any disruption arising from discussion of this outside my user space. Thanks for considering this. --Abd (talk) 02:31, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

Response to old archived thread at Circumcision

In response to this comment: Jayjg, please comment on content, not on the contributor. ☺ Coppertwig (talk) 22:03, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

Perhaps I shouldn't be talking about things from so long ago; I only mentioned this because it was brought up here. I'd like to add a further comment in response to this: Blackworm, you could have made your point more diplomatically. ☺ Coppertwig (talk) 00:36, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

Golan Heights

I replied to your comment on the source at talk:Golan Heights. AreaControl (talk) 13:08, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for letting me know. I replied there. ☺ Coppertwig (talk) 00:37, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

Survey versus study

The first published study is in the US in 1990. Note the patients were "elective," which means without medical reason. The second cite is a published survey, written by a mohel and urologist ... both qualified as a source.TipPt (talk) 19:05, 31 August 2008 (UTC)

Would you help me out here, please: for the second citation, you've provided a link to a page of letters to the editor. Would you please explain which letter or letters (or other things on the page) you're referring to? Thanks. ☺ Coppertwig (talk) 19:14, 31 August 2008 (UTC)

Che Guevara

No problem about the citation! I'm reading Ramonez' book right now so I might contribute more to this article. Maybe you could comment on my suggestion on the talk page. Zatoichi26 (talk) 01:31, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

I already did! ☺ Coppertwig (talk) 01:36, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

Socks

I've removed my uncivil comment at the Sockpuppet case in question. GoodDay (talk) 18:10, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

User Fipplet

Greetings. Would you please do me a favor and look at the PNA edit history? (I'm in a rush.) It looks like Fipplet has ignored our warnings, plus violated 3RR (in content edits, if not "reverts" per se). I suspect a brief block is in order. Thanks muchly, HG | Talk 15:04, 4 September 2008 (UTC)

Oh, since you're already working to smooth out the battlefield on I-P articles, maybe you'd be willing to join the cooperative wikiproject WP:IPCOLL? See membership table. It'd be great to have you on board! HG | Talk 15:07, 4 September 2008 (UTC)

Another coincidence! I was just in the middle of adding to the report at WP:3RRN, which was started by RolandR, when I received your message. And thank you for your invitation: it's very nice to know that my efforts to smooth things are recognized as such!! ☺ Coppertwig (talk) 15:32, 4 September 2008 (UTC)

PNA/Fipplet

I noticed your amendment to my 3RR report, and have added yet another (subsequent) revert. That makes eight by my count, seven by yours. I am well aware that I cannot again re-revert; but I hope someone else does, and that we can stop this disruption. RolandR (talk) 15:56, 4 September 2008 (UTC)

Re: Your suggestion

Thank you for your suggestion. Unfortunately the extremely high volume of edits to that article makes it impractical for me to find the link to the version of the article that existed before people started adding in the bit about the Alaska Independence Movement. It was time-consuming enough to compile the diffs for the report as it is. I am hopeful that whichever admin handles my report will recognize that user as having violated the spirit, if not the letter, of 3RR. Mike R (talk) 16:01, 4 September 2008 (UTC)

Semi-automated edits

Replying to Moonriddengirl who suggested Ship Ahoy (album): OK, sorry, I should have described better the type of article I'm looking for. I don't think that's it. The citation system I'm putting in is useful in articles where the same source is cited more than once, but with different page numbers. See Che Guevara for example. On the article you're suggesting, some references are used more than once, but there's no change in page number of anything, so there's no need for a separate "Notes" and "References" section. Generally, medical articles won't usually need the two separate sections, but history articles often will. So I'm looking for articles that need to have a separate References section added, or that have one but need links to it. Or to put it another way: if you'd like something done to that article, what would you like done? ☺ Coppertwig (talk) 16:30, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

Ah. I probably don't have too many of those. :) Most of the books I use are encyclopedic themselves and hence only cover the topic in a page or so. The only one that I can think of at the moment that conforms to your needs would be West Side Story (soundtrack). As to the article I mentioned, don't worry about it. It may or may not need anything, but I mentioned it only because it seemed you were looking for test cases. :) --Moonriddengirl 17:04, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

I've put in the citation links in a sandbox version of Georg Cantor.

Articles I've converted so far: manually: Che Guevara, Isaac Brock and Temple Sinai (Oakland, California); semi-automatically: 1960 South Vietnamese coup attempt and I-message.

Load times: I don't think this makes any noticeable change to load time. I believe load time is usually approximately a function of the number of ref tags (counting all of them, including "<ref name=.../>" as well as "<ref>...</ref>" pairs.) In doing these conversions, I haven't changed the number of ref tags. I've compared load times before and after on several of these articles and they seem to be the same.

This conversion has received a supportive response on two article talk pages (Temple Sinai and Isaac Brock) and an oppositional response from SandyGeorgia, who mentions load times repeatedly (among other things) although I don't think load time is an issue. ☺ Coppertwig (talk) 16:20, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

Those semi-automated edits looked good! Jayjg 02:00, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

Thanks!! ☺ Coppertwig (talk) 02:06, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

regarding arthashastra

thank you for the message you left me. however we both know that what i want to add is not going to be allowed up because of my disagreement and apparent war with User:CalendarWatcher. It is sad really that small editors like myself have to avoid using a registered name because of people like CW. I have been trying for months to get someone to understand my perspective, however that is not going to happen because User:CalendarWatcher has a history on here and i am fairly new. Please take notice however that i have never made a malicious edit to wikipedia. perhaps after my cyber stalker moves on or grows up i will use my account again and start editing again. Until then i am done trying to make a difference or do the right thing.98.222.196.27 (talk) 21:53, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

You said "we both know", but actually, I don't agree with you. I don't think that's the reason. I think the reasons the edit you want is not going to be allowed in is because it's not very relevant and because you haven't put any arguments on the talk page saying why it should be included. Whether you use a registered name or not is up to you. One advantage of a registered name is privacy: it hides your IP address so that people can't trace what computer you're using. I'm not aware of any threatening or inappropriate behaviour by CalendarWatcher. If there is any, feel free to bring it to my attention (although I'm not an administrator) or to an appropriate noticeboard. You say you've been trying to get someone to understand your perspective, but I don't see any edits by you on the article talk page. I suggest trying there. Opinions of new users are valued too. However, one individual can't force an article into their preferred version. It has to be by discussion and compromise. You say you've never made a malicious edit but I think you're mistaken: the edit summary here is a personal attack. Note that Misplaced Pages policy is against personal attacks. ☺ Coppertwig (talk) 01:40, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

i expected such response.. User:CalendarWatcher has on many occasions warred with many people and no action has ever been taken. but forget about it its not a problem. also.. i apologized for the "attack" i made on that douche bag.98.222.196.27 (talk) 02:10, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

Please respect the request at the top of my talk page about where to post criticisms of other users. Many people have warred repeatedly. Most of the time, if there is no 3RR violation or it's not reported properly at the 3RR noticeboard, no action is taken; even if 3RR is violated, often no action is taken. You can take action yourself by warning the person and discussing the situation with them in a friendly manner. People are more likely to be blocked for editwarring if they're also uncivil. I think you've just nullified your apology by making the above comment. ☺ Coppertwig (talk) 07:53, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

nullified huh? yea.. maybe theres a hidden message there.. if there were such a message it would prolly read "i dont give a rusty eff word". but there may not even be a message.. anyways it was not MY edit to begin with i just get tired of CalendarWatcher playing God all the time and no one standing up to him.. Oh i saw it was you being nosey and 3rr'd me. you can piss off too now. later!! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.222.218.171 (talk) 18:03, 9 September 2008 (UTC)

PSTS Policy & Guidelines Proposal

Since you have been actively involved in past discussions regarding PSTS, please review, contribute, or comment on this proposed PSTS Policy & Guidelines.--SaraNoon (talk) 19:09, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

Arilang1234 asking for help

Thank you very much user coppertwig,you are very kind and gentle.I guess I got carried away a bit,please forgive me for far too many silly mistakes I have made.To tell you the truth,my Wiki knowledge is minimum,my English is hardly passable,but I still have the desire to learn and to improve.And I am very passionate about Manchu and Ming dynasty history,Opium War,Matteo Ricci etc.In my heart,I have this urge,to share my knowledge with others,and at the same time to learn from others.That is why I spend so much time on that page alone,because the more I google,the more facts resurface,and I wish I could have ten pairs of eyes,with ten pairs of hands to record them all onto wiki,so that others can read them,without going through the world wide web like I did. While I was typing away,I completely forgot about others.I hope you,and other editors can understand and forgive me at the same time. I do like the idea of having my own user's page,can you kindly help me to set it up ?If so how to let others know of my user's page? Many thanks.Arilang1234 (talk) 21:33, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

Hi,its me again.I have managed to put something on sandbox,here is the link:http://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Sandbox. Please help me by pointing out all my short comings.ThanksArilang1234 (talk) 21:56, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

Many thanks.Arilang1234 (talk) 22:06, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

I suppose you are referring to Matteo Ricci,Johann Adam Schall von Bell , Ferdinand Verbiest，the three most famous missionaries that went to China in the 16 century.So just to inner-link them within wiki is not enough? So I have to provide outside reference ?I have just learn how to use the ref tag today,it is ok. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Arilang1234 (talk • contribs) 22:18, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

http://home.newadvent.org/cathen/13034a.htm catholic encyclopedia Arilang1234 (talk) 22:28, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

I have just did two ref tag,it looks ok,but I can't find the foot note.Don't know where is it.Arilang1234 (talk) 22:47, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

Harry G. Gelber's book is the source of all the info on "short term cause".I am working on a project to examine the two Chinese dynasty Manchu and Ming;so this kind of info should be relevant. Thanks for pointing out my short coming.I can change the wordings and the tone.About Chinese point of view,they are of complete opposite to the western point of view.Do I need to put them alongside the western point of view too? Arilang1234 (talk) 04:25, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

I have modify my article a bit and put it on my user page(not sandbox).Please have a look when you got time.I will keep on experiment on it to improve my skill.Arilang1234 (talk) 13:31, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

I have put up more ref links,please have a look and tell me how you feelArilang1234 (talk) 23:07, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

I'm sorry I don't have time for a full answer now. I'll look at it more carefully later. But it's good that you've made changes to make the words more NPOV. Well done. Yes, it would be good to use some sources written by Chinese authors. If different sources say different things, the Misplaced Pages article should describe all the points of view. See for example the "perspectives" section in the Boxer Rebellion article. One small thing: Whenever you put a comma or period ("," or ".") you should put no space before it, and a space after it. Same with ref tags: no space before, but a space after the </ref>. Please give more complete bibliographic information about your sources. If it's a book, you should give author, title, year, name of publisher, city or location of publisher, and ISBN number. See the references at the bottom of Boxer Rebellion for examples. For a web page, try to find information like the name of the organization that put up the web page, and the date it was last updated. Also the title. Sometimes there's information at the top and bottom of the web page. I'll tell you more later when I have more time.

• Thanks very much for your comment. I really appreciate your helps. I have asked many editors to help me, but none of them came. Arilang1234 (talk) 14:46, 9 September 2008 (UTC)

Me again. About Chinese source. Most of the Chinese internet web page are blogs, news sites, or bbs forums,and wiki may class them as unreliable.Unlike English source, there ain't that many university web sites. And where I live,there ain't that many Chinese history text books either. I know how and when to use external links and ref now,but I don't know anything about foot note.Can you explain when you have more time? I would like to name my article "Boxer Rebellion, Opium Wars and Beyond." What you think?Arilang1234 (talk) 15:44, 9 September 2008 (UTC)

Hi, long time have not heard from you. Must be busy. My used page have new theme now, please go have a look when you have time?Arilang1234 (talk) 23:48, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

Yes, I'm busier than usual. I'm sorry I haven't had time to answer! About the name of the article: the name you said is like poetry. It would be good as the title of a book or magazine article. But names of Misplaced Pages articles are not like poetry. They have to describe one topic. A name with "and" usually sounds as if it's describing two topics. Maybe a name like "Events leading up to the Boxer Rebellion" or "Westerners in China" (but also put the range of dates that you're talking about in the title) or something else. I'll answer more some time in the next few days.

I like helping you, Arilang1234, because you're enthusiastic, and because you find interesting information to add to articles, and most of all because you're learning. There are many things to learn about how to edit Misplaced Pages! ☺ Coppertwig (talk) 01:38, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

Wow, you have written a lot!

There is already an article Jesuit China missions. Do you think your material would be good as part of that article? Or do you think a separate article is needed?

I think you're doing better with the spaces around the commas and periods. (That is, there should be no space before, and one space after). There are still some with the wrong spacing, though. May I suggest you read carefully through your user page and change any that aren't right? After you think you've found them all, tell me and I'll see if I can still find any that need to be fixed.

It's impressive that you can put Chinese characters into your text. But, I think they're not needed. I think at the beginning of each article, we have the Chinese characters for the title of the article (if it's a Chinese word or name), and in the rest of the article we don't put the Chinese characters usually, because most readers of English Misplaced Pages can't read them, and because they can click on the link to the article on that word or name, and see the Chinese characters there. So I suggest taking almost all the Chinese characters out of your writing. Sorry if that make it less fun!

Would you like me to edit your user page to fix grammar?

There's already an article on Matteo Ricci. Do you think your material would go into that article? Where would be a good place in the article for it to go? Or would different parts of it go in different places?

If "FATHER MATTEO RICCI'S DIARY" is going to be the title of an article or section, it should not be in all capital letters.

You need to do some more work on the footnotes. Each footnote should have the title, author and other information. For example, instead of writing "Euclid's Elements", write the title of the web page the link goes to: "Matteo Ricci, S.J. (1552 to 1610) and his contributions to science in China".

I will probably have some more things to say later. I'm sorry I've been so busy. ☺ Coppertwig (talk) 01:35, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

Thank you very much for your kind reply. It is good to have a teacher like you. (1)To all the Chinese, all over the world, Matteo Ricci was, and is, the Saint who tried to fuse Confucianism and Christianity together.Though the Jesuit priests failed in their effort, because the Pope put a stop to it, that did not make Matteo Ricci any less important to Chinese. (2) I am writing Matteo Ricci from a Chinese's perspective.More precisely, from a Ming Dynasty's perspective.To me,and also to many Chinese, Ming Dynasty was being skillfully smeared by the barbaric Manchu tribal slaves owners who ended up ruling China for 263 years, and this 263 years represented the Darkest era in Chinese history. Ming Dynasty is still under a pile of rubbish. I would like to bring the glory of Ming to the surface again. (3) Do you think the time has come for my article to be transfer to a proper page, instead of my user page? If so, please help me. (4) About Chinese characters, if possible, I like to see they stay as it is. My reasons:(a)Ricci was a scholar of many talents, including the use of Latin, Italian, and Chinese.So it is only natural to include these 3 languages in my article. (b) Many Chinese can read both English and Chinese. (C) I hope one day my article will be translated into Chinese wiki. (5) Please feel free to edit my page anytime, not only grammar, anything you think not right, you can change it. You are my teacher. (6) Matteo Ricci is more than a Jesuit priest. He was the Ambassador of Culture between Europe and China in the 16 century.Arilang1234 (talk) 02:06, 13 September 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for your prompt reply. Sorry for not being able to answer you more fully, because I am really completely ignorant on many aspects of Wiki, and with only minimum of internet web blogging.But I am passionate about Christianity and China.The following quote sums up my feelings:"As Arnold Joseph Toynbee (1889 – 1975)( a British historian) said: "at this point Christianity had a chance to become a true world religion and rejected it. Never again in history has that opportunity presented itself on such favorable terms. Had Ricci and his colleagues been permitted to continue on their way, there is certainly no question but that the history of the world would have been far different." Arilang1234 (talk) 02:57, 13 September 2008 (UTC)

That's OK! I understand that some things may be difficult. Would you like to work on the footnotes? You can choose one, and tell me whether the reference is a book, or a web page, or what, and then we can try to fix it. ☺ Coppertwig (talk) 03:02, 13 September 2008 (UTC)

Hi,me again. I have repair some footnotes, but not all. Question:When one web page is being referred to more than one times, is the title still remains the same?Arilang1234 (talk) 04:26, 13 September 2008 (UTC)

• Hi, me again. I have left something on China Media Project talk page, you may have a look when you got time. By the way, I am working on http://en.wikipedia.org/Yuan_Weishi, can you also have a look and give me some advice on how to tidy up things? Thanks.Arilang1234 (talk) 00:30, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

OK. Convenient link for me to follow: China Media Project Talk:China Media Project ☺ Coppertwig (talk) 00:38, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

• China Media Project is under Creative Commons.

In early September I was given a 3 R warning on Boxer Rebellion. I am now more experience( please check 2008 Chinese milk scandal, I did a lot of work there.) Can I go to Boxer Rebellion and do a bit of editing there?Arilang1234 (talk) 11:49, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

I wrote some comments at Talk:Yuan Weishi. About editing Boxer Rebellion: anyone can edit any page. However, I suggest that before editing the article, you put your changes on the talk page and see whether people agree with them; and it may be better, before putting your changes on the talk page, to put your changes on your user page or another page in your user space (sandbox), and ask me to look at them. If you do that, please mark clearly which page you want to put the changes on. I mean, on your user page you can write "The following are suggested changes to the page Boxer Rebellion", then quote or describe the changes, then write "(end of suggested changes to Boxer Rebellion)"; or any other way to make it clear which page the changes are for. ☺ Coppertwig (talk) 12:43, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

• Thanks for your prompt reply. I did put some comments on Boxer Rebellion talk page.

One new question I like to ask is: there are some articles on zh.wikipedia that I like to translate them into English and put it on en.wikipedia. Can you advice me on how to do it ?Arilang1234 (talk) 13:08, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

Translating would be helpful! First, make sure the articles you want to translate satisfy the policies: that they have references which support the information (WP:V), they are written from a neutral point of view, etc. Choose good articles to translate. While you are translating, when you have translated part of the article but you haven't finished, you can keep your translation on your own computer, or in your user space; or you can keep it in article space, but then it may look strange because it's only part of an article, so that may not be as good. Actually, I'm doing that right now. I'm translating Safavid art from French, so only part of the article is there. Anyway, in the edit summaries you can write "translating from zh Misplaced Pages" or something like that, or put a message on the talk page to let people know you're translating. After you translate, you can ask me or another native English speaker to check the grammar. I suggest in the References section, state that the article is based on the article from the zh Misplaced Pages (as is done at Hellenistic Art, where it says it's based on the French Misplaced Pages article.) If there are some words you have difficulty translating, you can put a message on the talk page about it, and also try to find someone who can help. (I did that on the pages I translated.)

See also Misplaced Pages:Verifiability#http://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:V#Non-English_sources. Remember, the zh Misplaced Pages article is not considered a reliable source; the references must be other published material. Thank you for your contributions to Misplaced Pages! I'll look at your Boxer Rebellion comments and I'll comment there. ☺ Coppertwig (talk) 13:25, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

• I have made BIG changes to Boxer Rebellion. I might get into troubles for doing that. Please have a look when you have more time.Arilang1234 (talk) 23:02, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

  I looked at your changes. They look OK to me! I mean, I think that you shouldn't get in trouble for those changes. Other people might want to change them, though. I didn't look at the sources to see whether what you're writing is accurate. However, because there have been problems in the past, I think it would be better if you put your changes on the talk page and wait until someone agrees with them, or wait until a day or two have gone past with nobody disagreeing, before putting them in the article. When I say those changes look OK, I only mean I don't see problems. I'm not an expert on the Boxer Rebellion. I suggest you wait for people interested in that article to comment. ☺ Coppertwig (talk) 23:13, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

  Please have a look at http://en.wikipedia.org/Siku_Quanshu#Notes. I created the 'Notes' which was copy and paste from http://baike.baidu.com/ which is a Chinese copy of Misplaced Pages(they are using different software.) My intention is to translate Chinese text on the 'Notes' then put the English translation onto the main article. The question is: would en.Misplaced Pages accept http://baike.baidu.com(all in Chinese) as a reliable source for the English translation?Arilang1234 (talk) 21:33, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

  I can't read Chinese. I hope you've found some good information. But, you shouldn't put Chinese information in the article like that. Maybe putting it inside a footnote might be OK, if the translation is there too. I suggest that you revert your edit. Do you know how to revert your edit? Then, after you translate it into English, maybe you can put the English in the article.

  No, Misplaced Pages will not accept a copy of Chinese Misplaced Pages as a reliable source. Does the Chinese Misplaced Pages article use reliable sources? If it does, you can use those. If it doesn't, then probably it isn't useful to translate that article. ☺ Coppertwig (talk) 23:01, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

  Do you mean if I put the text from a Chinese on-line Enclcyclopedia into the footnote, translate it inside the footnote, then put it on the main article, it is ok?

To answer your another, all Chinese Encyclopedia (including zh.wikipedia) use Chinese source, they never use English source.Arilang1234 (talk) 00:04, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

• Put it this way, as far as I know, there are 3 to 4 Chinese on-line Encyclopedia which are free to the public, including zh.wikipedia. For some reasons( mainly self-sensorship), the content of zh.wikipedia is small(may be only 20%) when compare to other Chinese on-line encyclopedia. So I have to use Chinese on-line Encyclopedia to get my stuff if I am going to do any meaningfull works. If en.wikipedia do not accept online Chinese Encyclopedia as reliable source, that will make it very hard.Arilang1234 (talk) 00:17, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

  Is the Chinese encyclopedia a copy of Misplaced Pages, or is it a different encyclopedia? If it is not a copy of Chinese Misplaced Pages, and it is a different encyclopedia, then it might be OK as a source for English Misplaced Pages. Maybe there are better sources.

  Chinese sources are OK, if there is no English source for the same information.

  If the information is good information for this article, you can do this: first translate it; then put both the Chinese and the English translation in a footnote in the article; or you can put the English in the article and the Chinese in a footnote, if it's the right kind of information to put in the article. ☺ Coppertwig (talk) 00:29, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

  Your answer has solved most of my headaches. There are tons of data on various Chinese on-line Encyclopedia that are good for en.wikipedia. Now the question is I am alone, I can only translate limited amount per day. Is there anywhere I can recruit some more zh-en translators?Arilang1234 (talk) 01:05, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

  Another question, so when I put relevant text into a footnote, is not regarded as a vandalism?Arilang1234 (talk) 01:05, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

  I have started on Qianlong Emperor, please have a look when you have time, and give me some advice.Arilang1234 (talk) 06:28, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

  Wait! We also have to think about copyright.

  • You may translate articles from Chinese Misplaced Pages and post the translations on English Misplaced Pages. You may do this because Chinese Misplaced Pages is under a GFDL license. However, if the articles are not very good they may be deleted. If they don't have references they may be deleted.
  • You may not translate articles from other encyclopedias and post the translations on English Misplaced Pages; but you may if those encyclopedias say that they use a GFDL license (or other acceptable license).
  • You may write new text, not just translations, using ideas from Chinese sources, and post it to articles using those sources as references. But the text must be relevant to the article, and follow all the policies, including NPOV.
  • You may not use Chinese Misplaced Pages as a reference. However, if you translate from Chinese Misplaced Pages, I suggest listing it in the references section of the article. (I'm sorry if that's confusing!)
  • If you are trying to make Misplaced Pages better, then I don't think it's vandalism. But putting relevant text into a footnote may be considered disruptive if the text is in Chinese only. English Misplaced Pages needs English text. See Misplaced Pages:Manual of Style (use of Chinese language). I suggest that for all changes you want to do to articles, you put the change on the article talk page first, and wait a couple of days for comment. Later when you have learned more about how to edit Misplaced Pages, if people usually like your changes, then you may be able to edit articles without talking on the talk page first. ☺ Coppertwig (talk) 18:36, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

  ☺ Coppertwig (talk) 18:36, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

  --snip--You may write new text, not just translations, using ideas from Chinese sources, and post it to articles using those sources as references. But the text must be relevant to the article, and follow all the policies, including NPOV.--snip-- @Coppertwig, this single rule is good enoughArilang1234 (talk) 19:03, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

  No, that one rule is not enough. You must follow all the rules. If you don't know a rule you can be bold, but if someone has told you a rule you must follow it; and you should spend some time reading policies and guidelines so you know the rules.

  If you want to follow just one simple rule, please follow this rule: Before editing an article, write a message on the talk page of the article saying that you want to edit. In the message, put exactly the words you want to change (or the words you want to add). Wait 2 days or more for comments. If people agree with you, or if nobody disagrees, then you can do the edit.

  But following just one rule might not be enough. You need to learn about how things work on Misplaced Pages.

  Please revert your edits at Qianlong Emperor. Maybe some of the changes are good; I don't know. But you have put a lot of Chinese text in. That's not right. This is English Misplaced Pages: material must be in English. Please take out the Chinese.

  Sometimes some Chinese text can be in articles, but only in some situations. Ask on the talk page first. And there must always be an English translation too. You can't put in Chinese text without an English translation.

  It says "7th: Princess He Jing ". That's six Chinese characters. I think "He Jing" would probably only be two characters. So there should only be two characters. If it says more than just "He Jing", then the rest of it should also be written in a way that English-speaking readers can pronounce.

  You added this to the article: "The accusation of individuals began with the absolute authority's twisted interpretation of the true meaning of the corresponding words" That is probably not NPOV. You added this: "then evolved into a sinister and barbaric 'system'." That is certainly not NPOV!

  You added "Qianlong was the worst offender". That is probably not NPOV.

  You added "One high ranking scholar Hu zhongjou wrote a poem '一把心肠论浊清'." If you give the name of the poem in Chinese characters, you must also give the name of the poem in letters that an English speaker can pronounce (pinyin or Wade-Giles or translation into English, or more than one of these). You may not put Chinese characters by themselves like that.

  I haven't read the whole thing. There may be other problems. Please revert your edits. Then put the changes you want to make on the talk page. Fix all the problems that people have told you about. Try to make it all NPOV. Then you can ask me to look at it again, and I might fix the grammar or find other problems. You can also wait for comments from other people.

  Thank you for contributing to Misplaced Pages! I hope we will fix the problems and that some of your changes will go into the article! ☺ Coppertwig (talk) 19:35, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

  I have listen to your advice and put most of my edits onto the Qianlong talk page. I left "Censorship" there, I think that one should be OK. I have insert a lot of {{}} asking for citation verification, and a lot of Who? .You think OK? I am not vandalizing, just pointing out all those errors.

What will happen after 2 or 3 days, and nobody care to comment at all? What about the big churn of Chinese text in the foot notes, can I leave it there?Arilang1234 (talk) 20:26, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

• Thank you for reverting! I think the "Censorship" section may be OK. (When I say something may be, it means possibly (maybe and maybe not).) I think that adding {{fact}} tags is OK. I think that the {{Who}} template means something different from what you think. The Who template is for weasel words, which means things like "Everybody thinks that..." or "Experts agree that ..." without saying who those people are. I think you want to mark the word "Chinese" because you think it should be replaced by a different word. I'm not sure if there's a template for that; maybe the "unbalanced" template at the top of the article is already good enough for that, and you don't need any template next to every word "Chinese".

  If you post a change on a talk page and nobody comments for 2 or 3 days, then I think you can put the change into the article.

  Please take the Chinese text out of the footnotes. You can't put Chinese text without an English translation (or for names, at least pinyin or Wade-Giles) anywhere in a Misplaced Pages article.

  Thank you! ☺ Coppertwig (talk) 20:47, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

  I have remove the Chinese text on footnotes.

Question(1)If nobody comments and I got to put back into the article, what about 'cite'? Template:Cite---news or Template:Cite---web ? So as long as I can translate between zh and en, and I can cite Chinese online encyclopedia, and I stick to all these WP rules, then I can work on any WP article I like?Arilang1234 (talk) 21:10, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

Whenever you add material to an article, you should always include references. You can format the references with "cite news" and "cite web" etc. I can help you format them (put them into the "cite web" template etc.), but you must always tell us where you got the information.

When you put information on a talk page that you want to put into the article, you should put the references there too ("cite web", etc.)

Online encyclopedias might not be good sources. Usually we use secondary sources and some primary sources. Encyclopedias are tertiary sources. But encyclopedias are much better than no sources.

Every time you work on an article, you should try to follow all the rules. ☺ Coppertwig (talk) 21:20, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

Thanks teacher. I am now looking at Qing and looking at ways on how to improve it. By the way, when I click on 'history', there is a page called 'Page view statistics', and if I click on Qing's 'page view statistic, its visitors are thousands per day. How to find out which WP articles have the most numbers of visitors?Arilang1234 (talk) 21:46, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

Oh! I never noticed page view statistics! Maybe it's something new. I'm sorry, I don't know where to find out which WP articles have the most visitors. You could try asking at the help desk. If you find out, please tell me!

When you are editing articles that have a large number of visitors, you need to be even more careful. Maybe wait longer for comments on the talk page before editing, and please make sure you don't edit the article without asking on the talk page first. ☺Coppertwig (talk) 21:59, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

I am beginning to stir the hornet's nest at Qing. I want to see what kind of responses will be thrown at me. Eventually I want to put Template:--unballance-- on all the Manchu related WP pages.Because they need to be cleaned up.Arilang1234 (talk) 23:00, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

Good news, I have got another teacher, user Bathrobe, after a long chat on talk page Qianlong, I think he is kind of agree with me.Arilang1234 (talk) 05:16, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

For your information:Wang Xiuchu is the author of a 8000 words book 'The record of ten days in Yangzhou', an eyewitness account of ten days of mass murder suffered by Yangzhou civilians after their city was sacked by the Manchu.Arilang1234 (talk) 08:07, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

Another reference on the mass murder:Dodo, Prince Yu Arilang1234 (talk) 08:22, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

http://stats.grok.se/en/top Top 1000 of most visited wikiArilang1234 (talk) 13:22, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

Another topic need to be included is http://en.wikipedia.org/Queue_Order#cite_note-5, which is very much missing in all those so called B class Manchu article. It was officially declared by the Manchu:To keep your hair, you lose your head. To keep your head, you lose your hair. This rule alone, millions of Chinese Han were murdered.Arilang1234 (talk) 22:10, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

• One very important question:Can a translation of a zh.wikisource article be accepted by en.wikipedia?Arilang1234 (talk) 00:23, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

Good, I am glad you have two teachers now!

You need to learn how to tell me about references. You said that Wang Xiuchu was the author of a book, and you told me some things about the book. But, you did not tell me which of the things you wrote have ideas from that book. So telling me about the book is no use.

Every time you write something that you want to put in a Misplaced Pages article, you should say something that means, "these ideas come from this book: ..." and tell the name of the book, author, etc. That's what "reference" means. "Cite" means the same thing as "reference".

I don't understand why you call "Dodo, Prince Yu" a "reference". That's a link to a Misplaced Pages article about Prince Yu. A Misplaced Pages article can't be used as a reference.

Can a translation of a zh.wikisource article be accepted by en.wikipedia? I don't know! Why don't you put the article in en.wikisource? That would probably be better. ☺ Coppertwig (talk) 00:52, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

You mean zh.wikisource article(in Chinese) is accepted by en.wikisource? If that is the case, can en.wikisource article(in Chinese) be used as a source in en.wikipedia?Arilang1234 (talk) 02:25, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

No, that's not what I mean! en.wikisource accepts articles in English. en.wikisource also accepts translations into English. I meant: you can translate something that is in zh.wikisource, and put the English translation in en.wikisource. But, if there is a published translation, it would be better to use it instead (if there is no problem with copyright). See wikisource translation.

You may use anything in en.wikisource as a reference.

I think you can also use Chinese text in zh.wikisource as a reference for English Misplaced Pages. See WP:Verifiability#Non-English sources. ☺ Coppertwig (talk) 02:35, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

• Now I understand a bit more. (1)Priority No.1, the source must be reliable, zh, en, or any others also OK.(2)If the reliable source is not in en, still OK, just put the original text into footnotes, then translate into en. Have I understood it correctly?Arilang1234 (talk) 02:51, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

  I think that's right. Thank you for asking whether you understood right. It's good to make sure we understand each other. A few more little things, though: I'm not sure exactly what the rules are. I think maybe you can use a Chinese source as a reference by just giving information like the title, page number, etc. But I'm not sure: maybe you can't. You can put quotes in footnotes with both the Chinese and an English translation (which can be translated by you). I don't think you need to translate the title of the book or whatever it is, but I think you should give it in pinyin or Wade-Giles; you can give it in Chinese characters too. (Do you know how to read Chinese characters and write them in pinyin or Wade-Giles?)

  In the article Leaders' debate on women's issues during the 1984 Canadian federal election campaign, for example, for the first footnote I only gave the title of the newspaper article and other information about the newspaper article (author, what page it's on, etc.); I didn't give a quote from the newspaper article. I think this is OK but I'm not completely sure. I didn't translate the title of the newspaper article. I don't think that's necessary; but the title is in letters than an English speaker can pronounce, not characters. For the last footnote, I gave a quote in French and also a translation, written by me, into English.

  If it's about a very simple fact, it may not be necessary to give a quote. For example, that first footnote was used to verify that the debate was the first debate of that kind. That's pretty simple and I don't think anyone would argue about whether that newspaper article says that. So I didn't put a quote. But for the things you want to do, a lot of it is about different points of view. Different people with different ideas about history might read the same thing and think it means something different. So in many cases, it's probably a good idea to give a quote in a footnote and translate it into English. I think it would be useful to do that.

  But if you give quotes, the quotes should not be too long; not too much quoting from the same source, because it could violate copyright. Short quotes are allowed even if the source is copyrighted, but long quotes might violate copyright.

  I'm sorry this isn't simple!!! ☺ Coppertwig (talk) 13:42, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

  One more thing: I suggest you put everything you want to put in the article onto the talk page: text for the article, and footnotes too. Then I and others can check whether it looks right. ☺ Coppertwig (talk) 14:01, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

• I am putting 'Requesting consensus discussion' on 3 different talk pages, waiting for other editors to discuss different view points.
  

http://en.wikipedia.org/Talk:Qing_Dynasty#Requesting_consensus_discussion
http://en.wikipedia.org/Talk:Wang_Xiuchu
http://en.wikipedia.org/Talk:Qianlong_Emperor#Requesting_consensus_discussion

I am slowly figureing out all these wiki rules, and I will make sure that all rules are being taken care of.Arilang1234 (talk) 00:04, 19 October 2008 (UTC)

• I shall use the following external links for reference:
  

(1)Ebrey, Patricia (1993). Chinese Civilization: A Sourcebook. Simon and Schuster.
(2)http://afe.easia.columbia.edu/china/geog/population.htm#2b Chinese population charts in 1000 years.
(3)http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/warstat0.htm#Manchu17c Han murdered when Manchu defeat Ming
(4)McFarlane, Alan: The Savage Wars of Peace: England, Japan and the Malthusian Trap, Blackwell 2003, ISBN 0631181172, ISBN 978-0631181170
(5)http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/580815/Taiping-Rebellion
(6)http://www.archive.org/index.php
(7)http://www.encyclopedia.com/searchresults.aspx?q=Manchu+atrocity
(8)http://baike.baidu.com/
(9)http://www.hudong.com Arilang1234 (talk) 00:16, 19 October 2008 (UTC)

• Thank you, Arilang1234: you're a good student! Thank you for putting messages on the talk pages. And thank you for giving information about your references. You will still need to tell us which information came from which reference. I looked at the Qing dynasty talk page and put some comments there. ☺ Coppertwig (talk) 00:34, 19 October 2008 (UTC)

• Teacher Coppertwig, I have good news for you. I have managed to find a Chinese on-line encyclopedia using GFDL or GNU. Now there is no more copy right problem! http://www.wiki.cn/%E7%BB%B4%E5%AE%A2:%E7%89%88%E6%9D%83%E4%BF%A1%E6%81%AF .This wiki is not zh.wikipedia, is it OK?
• At last a Chinese encyclopedia with GFDL license has pop up. According to one of the wiki rule, a reliable non-en source can be used, as long as the original text is inserted into footnotes. My question is, if I need to use a lot of text from the reliable source, does it mean I need to put a lot of non-en text into the foot note? If this is the case, that means only editors, moderators, and admin who are able to understand both Chinese and Enlish, are then able to edit, any person who does not know Chinese, has no hope of judgeing my article. To complicate things further, Chinese is divided into common simple Chinese, and classical Confucius Chinese. And most of the Qing dynasty and Ming dynasty Chinese were written in classical style, a bit of like Latin and modern English. I can see a lot of editors will have a hard time. WP:Verifiability#Non-English sources.Arilang1234 (talk) 07:07, 19 October 2008 (UTC)

Quote:"Non-English sources Policy shortcuts: WP:RSUE WP:VUE WP:NONENG

Because this is the English Misplaced Pages, for the convenience of our readers, editors should use English-language sources in preference to sources in other languages, assuming the availability of an English-language source of equal quality, so that readers can easily verify that the source material has been used correctly. Where editors translate any direct quote, they should quote the relevant portion of the original, non-English text in a footnote or in the article. Translations published by reliable sources are preferred over translations made by Misplaced Pages editors." UnquoteArilang1234 (talk) 07:12, 19 October 2008 (UTC)

• Teacher Coppertwig, please have a look at Qing the 'External links' section. I have put most of my 'source' as 'link', and put them all under 'External link', to show that I mean business. The bulk of the 'raw data' would have to be from here:Yangzhou Ten Days of mass murder committed by Manchu soldiers, which is a GFDL web site, in Chinese text, that means I shall have a lot of translation to do. Now the question is, because it is under GFDL, so no copy right problem, so do I still need to include the original Chinese text into Qing, if the answer is yes, where? If the answer is 'Foot notes', then the 'Foot note' will become a huge foot note.Arilang1234 (talk) 00:28, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

That Chinese encyclopedia says "Wiki". So I guess it's a wiki, like Misplaced Pages. If it's under GFDL like Misplaced Pages, then you can use it in the same ways you can use Chinese Misplaced Pages. You can translate from it, but you can't use it as a reference. You don't have to include the Chinese text; just say that you're translating from that wiki, and give a link to it. But that link doesn't count as a reference. You still need references. If that wiki gives references, you can use those. If it doesn't give references, then don't translate from it. You need references. Thank you for keeping on trying! I hope we figure this out soon!! ☺ Coppertwig (talk) 01:13, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

Arilang asking help(2)

• If the 'reference' is a book in Chinese text, and not yet being translated into English, would that be counted as a reference?Arilang1234 (talk) 07:24, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

• New text has been put into Qing, please check when you have time.Arilang1234 (talk) 21:22, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

Yes, you may use a book in Chinese text as a reference. I think you don't need to translate quotes from it; I'm not sure. I think it's probably a good idea to translate a few short quotes, and put the original Chinese and translation in footnotes. I think you can also take simple facts from the book and just tell the page number, without translating anything.

Some books are good books to use as references. Some books are not very good. See WP:RS#Scholarship.

If there is an English-language book that gives the same information, it's better to use the English-language book. ☺ Coppertwig (talk) 22:52, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

Someone has removed the B class status of Qing andQianlong, looks like some moderator or Admin are on my side. Hehe.Arilang1234 (talk) 03:46, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

• • Please have a look at Boxer Rebellion and let me know your opinion.Arilang1234 (talk) 03:51, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

Congratulations, Arilang! You are doing very well. You did these good things at Qing dynasty:

• You put the text on the talk page first, so that people could comment.
• You asked me for help, so that I could fix the grammar before you put it into the article.
• You included references.
• You wrote "the alleged number of victims was closed to 800,000.(though some scholars doubted it's accuracy)": this looks like good NPOV, telling more than one version of what happened.

Well done! And now your material has not been reverted. But Bathrobe says some should be moved to another article. I suggest that you work with

Bathrobe on that.

Question: You had put some sentences in the cite news and cite web templates. Are those quotes from the sources? ☺ Coppertwig (talk) 14:22, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

(1)The reason I put sentences in the Template:Cite/news/web is for the convenience of me and others. Without these mini 'summery', one has no way to know the content of the web page. With a bit of 'summery', the web page can be used as source for other articles.

(2)May be you have noticed I use template 'cquote' quite a bit, please tell me if I have overuse it or not.
(3)Qing, Qianlong, Boxer Rebellion, Wang Xiuchu are all interrelated articles, and I am doing revisions on them at the same time, because I think they all need to be more NPOV.Arilang1234 (talk) 20:05, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

A bit of argument between me and Bathrobe on Qing talk page. Could you have a look and give some NPOV comments?Arilang1234 (talk) 09:39, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

More argument between me and Bathrope with him mention the word 'revert' my editions. Could you have a look at talk page 'Qing' and help me out a bit?Arilang1234 (talk) 04:57, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

Hi, Arilang! You are a good student who learns, but I think you are also a student who forgets! You learned to put new text on the talk page before editing, but I think maybe you've forgotten that and you've been putting text into the article without discussing it on the talk page first! Please always put your suggested changes on the talk page first, until some Wikipedians tell you you've learned enough rules to edit the article directly. For one thing, you can ask me to fix the grammar when it's still on the talk page. That helps. Remember when I said if you only learned one rule, it would be to discuss it on the talk page first?

Read what I said on the Qing page, starting "To decide how much space to give each part of the article, look at how much space is given to them in the sources...." Do you understand? Before you put something in the article, put an argument on the talk page about how much space is in the sources about it.

User "Bathrobe" has the last two letters "be", not "pe".

This is not NPOV: "The Manchu not only sin against all the Chinese(all 56 races), they had sin against the whole human race. Lets not forget that." This is also not NPOV: "Well, "absolute ruler" says it all, and we all know 'absolute power brings absolute corruption'."

However, user 123.121.239.111 said that they put some of your material into the Boxer Rebellion article. You should be happy about that!!

About zh wikipedia: Here are some suggestions. You don't have to do this. It's just suggestions. I suggest that, because you are getting along with people better on English Misplaced Pages, that you edit only English Misplaced Pages for a couple of months. Try to learn many rules of English Misplaced Pages and get in the habit of following them. For example, don't put messages on article talk pages talking about what it's like editing zh Misplaced Pages. On article talk pages, talk only about the article. On user talk pages, like this one, you can talk about more things. That's why I'm answering here. Get used to following many rules here. When you learn to follow a rule, keep on following it. Learn how to write with NPOV. Most of the rules are probably the same on zh Misplaced Pages. After a few months when you're doing better here, then I suggest you try again at zh Misplaced Pages. I suggest you follow all the same rules there: put things on the talk page first, etc. Also, I suggest you make small changes first (but discuss those small changes on the talk page first), e.g. a few words or one sentence. Also, I suggest you assume good faith and don't call people "thugs". Then maybe next time you will get along with people at zh Misplaced Pages. Good luck. Again, these are just suggestions. You don't have to do it that way. But I think it will help you if you do. ☺ Coppertwig (talk) 00:14, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

Thanks very much Teacher Coppertwig. Give me another few months I shall be quite good. With your help of course. To decide how much space to give each part of the article, look at how much space is given to them in the sources. this I understand, but in the case of An Account of Ten days at Yangzhou, which is a book, and the whole book is about the massacre at Yangzhou, or near 90% of it, how do I decide what percentage is what?Arilang1234 (talk) 03:12, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

That book is about the massacre, so if you're writing about the massacre, you can use that book to help decide how much to write about each part of the massacre. If the book has 10 chapters, and 5 of them are about one part of the massacre, and one chapter is about another part of the massacre, then in the article about the massacre, you can write half the article about one part of the massacre and a small part of the article about the other part.

If you're writing a section of an article, where the article is about something else but that section is about the massacre, then half that section would be about the part that has 5 chapters in the book, and the part that has only one chapter might be only one sentence, or half a sentence, or you don't mention it at all in that section.

If you only have one book, you can use it like that, but other editors who have other books may change what you do. It's better if you have all the books you can find. (Good books. If they're published by a university they're probably good, for example.) Some books might have more material on one thing and other books might have less; you can do something between those.

To decide how much space in an article should be about the massacre, you need other books, I think. To decide how much material in the Qing article should be about the massacre, it would be good to have one or more books about the Qing dynasty. Then you can see how much of that book is about the massacre.

You can read parts of many books here: http://books.google.com For example, here's a book about the Qing dynasty: I think that book is a reliable source because it's published by Westview press, and the Misplaced Pages article about Westview press says "publishes textbooks and scholarly works for an academic audience." You can read the table of contents. That tells what the chapters are about. So that can help decide what the Qing article should talk about.

If you want the Qing article to talk about comparing the Qing dynasty with Yuan or Ming or something, you need to find one or more sources that have a good amount of material comparing them. If the sources about the Qing dynasty don't talk about comparing it with Yuan or Ming, you can't put it in the Qing article. If you take one source about Qing and another source about Yuan and you think of ways to compare them, that's original research, as 123.121.239.111 told you. You can't put it in Misplaced Pages, but you can make your own web page or publish your own book about it. ☺ Coppertwig (talk) 13:26, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

Arilang3

Teacher Coppertwig, how are you? The revision on Qing is coming along OK, can you have a look at talk page Qing and let me know your opinion?Arilang1234 (talk) 02:14, 1 November 2008 (UTC)

On Talk:Qing Dynasty, you wrote "May be it is the result of you being living in China for too long, or may be you are plain too lazy to try to understand other people's view points?" Please don't say things about other editors that they might not like. You said, "And why do you hate people who hate Manchus? Don't tell me you have Manchu or Mongol blood in your veins?" and" you are a white man". Please don't ask editors where they live or what ethnicity they are, or say things like that. Please don't say that an editor hates some people; I don't think the person said that they hate people. Editors should talk about what the sources say and what the article should say. Editors should not talk about what editors believe. You said, "You can throw whatever kind of insults at me, it is ok, I had insulted others with much harsher words." Actually, you should not insult people and they should not insult you. See WP:Civility, WP:No personal attacks, User:Coppertwig#Civility and DefendEachOther. You said, "you need to get out of this narrow-minded thinking of yours." Please comment on content, not on the contributor. I also gave a message to Bathrobe at User:Bathrobe#Arilang.

Bathrobe said, "I don't have time to be constantly cleaning up this kind of thing". Arilang, you need to be careful not to make difficult work for Bathrobe. I think if you always put your material on the talk page for discussion first, it will help a lot.

Where is the text that you want me to check the grammar of?

When you put material on the talk page for discussion, you need to say clearly that it is material you are suggesting putting into the article, and you need to say exactly what part of the article you want to put it into. I don't see anything like that on the Qing talk page, so I don't know what you want me to check the grammar of.

You mentioned a sentence with the word "zenith" that you say is not NPOV. I think you are probably right. I suggest that you put a different version of that sentence on the talk page for discussion.

I hope I'm helping you. ☺ Coppertwig (talk) 13:25, 1 November 2008 (UTC)

Thanks teacher Coppertwig. The 'debate' that me and Bathrobe were having was long and boring and all over the place. This is one reason the Qing talk page has become such a mess. I will tidy it up somehow, as best as I can. You probably had read from beginning to the end. The one thing I like to say is Bathrobe does not possess the same 'Teacher' quality as you do, and he wrongly stressed on my Han chauvinism, which in itself is a questionable article

The above quotation is cut-n-paste from talk page Han chauvinism. It look a very long time for Bathrobe to see that I am not a Han chauvinist, only after repeating protests from me. To be fair, all I did was adding information that previous editors forgot to supply, though my editing was(and still is) often messy, but I will try to improve. Just because I was editing Qing and I was wrongly labeled a Han chauvinist, that was the only reason why my retorts were so sharp and irritating. I want to both appololize to you and him.
Now things seems to have resolve, I will try my best to tidy up any mess I have left on Qing.Arilang1234 (talk) 00:29, 2 November 2008 (UTC)

Thank you, Arilang1234. I accept your apology. ☺Coppertwig(talk) 00:37, 2 November 2008 (UTC)

Thank you very much for your positive response in the other section of this talk page. You said there: "Now I am reading this book The Ching Imperial Household Department by Preston M. Torbert, on page 16-18, the author gave a detail description of how Jurchens(or Manchus) obtained land by warring, and turned war captives into agriculture slaves." Again, I suggest that you propose this change on the talk page, telling exactly how you want to change the article. ☺Coppertwig(talk) 23:13, 3 November 2008 (UTC)

Dear Coppertwig

Mr. Coppertwig, Regarding the 3RR "report" filed against me, I feel that you have failed to perform the necessary due-diligence to examine this particular case beyond the skin-deep level. The reporting individual is highly skilled at masking his own incitement and violation, and craftily reports a revert when his own inappropriate material is adjusted, changed, altered or removed. Please email me, or allow me to email you to discuss this further offline. I have been highly upset and disturbed by the nature of these other users. I am a retired professional, and gentle soul, with many high-quality contributions, and livlihood which backs my contributions. Most Sincerely, Grayghost01 (talk) 03:11, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

I'm sorry I don't have time to reply right now; I'll plan to look into this later. You may email me if you wish. ☺ Coppertwig (talk) 12:07, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

Take a look at Grayghost's user/talk pages and his comments on discussion pages and you will understand how extreme his own POV issues are. (His Lincoln comments are a real howl.) At any rate, there was a 3RR violation by him earlier and I mistakenly assumed good faith (see his talk page). I won't repeat the error. Red Harvest (talk) 14:30, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

Would both of you please respect my request at the top of my talk page not to post criticisms of other users here. (I just made the font bigger etc.) I've run out of time just now, sorry, but I plan to reply properly later. ☺ Coppertwig (talk) 02:10, 9 September 2008 (UTC)

In response to your query, I've looked in more depth at the article, article history and talk page.

Thank you for your contributions to Misplaced Pages. It's certainly good to have interested and knowledgeable people like yourself contributing. It seems to me that you, North Shoreman and JimWae have all contributed good material. (I didn't look at other contributors in this analysis.) I encourage you to work collaboratively with other editors and try to compromise. An article written by several editors is almost always better than one written by one editor. It can be difficult for one editor alone to achieve a truly neutral article.

Regarding the warning I posted on your talk page: I hope you won't worry about it too much. Essentially, it's primarily to make sure you're aware of the three-revert rule, and secondarily to let others know that you're aware of it. It's not intended to be punitive, and it can be posted on talk pages of users that have come close to violating 3RR even if they haven't violated it, to let them know they're coming close, as a courtesy. In any case, at the time I posted the warning, you had recently done 4 reverts in a 24-hour period. During the same 24-hour period, North Shoreman had done 3 reverts (if consecutive series of edits by one editor are counted as one edit, as is usually done for 3RR purposes), and JimWae had done 4 edits, of which only 2 seem to me to be reverts. I could have posted a warning to North Shoreman too, because as I said the warning can be posted if an editor is coming close to a 3RR violation, but in any case, North Shoreman had mentioned 3RR in an edit summary, so clearly North Shoreman was aware of the policy and no warning was needed. Three reverts in a 24-hour period is not a 3RR violation, though one can still be blocked for editwarring even if not violating 3RR.

If you ever notice a situation where another editor has recently violated 3RR, you can report them at the 3RR noticeboard. I frequently help format reports at that noticeboard, so feel free to ask me for help formatting a report if you like; if I have time and agree that a report is warranted, I may help. Such a report is only useful if an edit war is currently in progress; if editwarring seems to have stopped, administrators will probably do nothing in response.

If you and other editors are having difficulty reaching a compromise, it can help to get more editors involved. If you're in a disagreement with only one other editor, third opinion can help. If more editors are involved, request for comment (article content) can help, or posting a message at a related article or wikiproject (which is allowed under the WP:CANVASS policy). See also dispute resolution.

It seems to me that it's probably not NPOV to say that sentiment suddenly changed in Virginia, or to state that it changed for one specific reason. The phrase "radical abolitionist" strikes me as likely not NPOV either.

Re your comments: "You are purely diversionary, and have no true interest in what the history of Virginia is, nor do you care anything about the state and it's various wiki-pages on its history." "I predict you have no intent to discuss or cooperate.", "that you are so hot and heavy to ram into...": please comment on content, not on the contributors. I suggest reviewing WP:Civility and WP:OWN. And re "The reporting individual is highly skilled at masking his own incitement and violation, and craftily ...": in your comment above: please respect the request at the top of my talk page about not criticizing other editors here. Coppertwig (talk) 01:08, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for your comments and time. Terms like "radical abolitionist" are historical and of old use. If you found that on a wiki article, then it likely is found in its correct context of referring to abolitionists who were willing to either commit murder or insurrection in the name of abolition. There is a whole wiki article devoted to these people at Radical Republican (USA). So ... some editors who have been dabbling in the American Civil War, I've noticed, get wrapped around the axle slapping "POV" on items thinking there is a problem, when in fact there is not. In my particle case, one example of what upset these other editors was the word "invasion" that I must have put on an article about 2 years ago, and which they recently observed. These fellows cried "POV". I tried, to no avail, to explain that this is a purely military term. We, the United States, invaded Normandy (see Invasion of Normandy). The word "invasion" as you see in this main wiki article is not a POV.

Now, while geographic location of one's residence is not normally an issue ... it can be a cause of POV in certain cases, such as the American Civil War. So these other editors "provoke" edit battles by deleting or inserting items which either reflect their own POV .... or which incorrectly assumes a POV on something like the word "invasion" or perhaps "radical" as you pointed out. Its a form of vandalism, because the TRUE spirit of wiki's intent is not meant. I say that because these editors have received many warnings. In tracing through their many edits, they have left a trial of being provoking and warned in other articles. If anyone resists their efforts, they jump on them with 3RR "attacks". These two also work in tandem, cooperatively with each other, to form a perception of "false" consensus on talk pages. Most people are unaware they are working together.Grayghost01 (talk) 22:14, 14 September 2008 (UTC)

Dear Grayghost01: I apologize for the delay in replying.

Re "radical abolitionist": If this is a generally accepted term in the reliable sources – if sources from both perspectives use the term – then its use may be NPOV. That's why I didn't change it myself but just brought it to your attention for consideration.

I'm wondering in what context the word "invasion" was challenged. In the context of a civil war, the word could imply a POV as to whether two different countries were involved or two parts of the same country.

Please avoid using the word "vandalism" to describe content disputes; and please respect my request at the top of this page about not criticizing other editors in messages on this talk page.

People are allowed to edit articles regardless of where they live. Combining the opinions of several editors about how to fulfill the NPOV policy usually leads to a better article than any one could write alone. ☺ Coppertwig (talk) 00:15, 21 September 2008 (UTC)

The words "invade" or "invasion" are used extensively in historical books, signs, brochures, lectures and etc on the topic of the American Civil War. Lee's "invasion" of Maryland is a typical description by both southerners and northerners. No one takes any beef with it. I've never seen anyone write any dissenting opinions on the use of "invade" or "invasion". In a small, minor, background statement on Winchester in the Civil War, I added that the decision by Lincoln to raise and army and "invade" the southern states was a huge turning point for Virginia and very pro-union areas (like Winchester), and the key is that this is how THEY viewed it, and WHY they changed their minds toward secession support. The point is that these areas had no desire to secede for other reasons prior to that. This fact about Virginia's secession is well documented. So much so, that Jedediah Hotchkiss spends many pages explaining the history of Virginia in regard to slavery, her requirement that the Ohio Valley lands she ceded to the U.S. "had" to be free states, and etc, and how Gov. Letcher's letter of response to Lincoln explained the beef, which is the nature of how I present Virginia history, or used to (before the edit-nazis descended). The person who deleted "invade" from the article, I have discovered, cruises the articles doing this type of thing, arguing with other editors, and tweaking articles with tid-bits of citations from a very selective sub-set of historians, some of which are seen as "revisionists". This persons deliberate tactic is to offensively attack people with 3RR or other warnings. I have checked this out in his history.Grayghost01 (talk) 00:44, 21 September 2008 (UTC)

And a P.S., there are Wiki articles on the Invasion of Normandy, Baghdad invasion, etc. The censorship is applied specifically to the American Civil War, despite historical references.Grayghost01 (talk) 01:29, 21 September 2008 (UTC)

I don't see an article titled "Baghdad invasion". Surely the invasion of Normandy was not considered part of a civil war. Do you have examples of articles where the word "invasion" is used in the context of a civil war in some country? Anyway, that doesn't matter. What matters is how the sources represent it. From the above, it seems that you're admitting that there are some sources ("revisionists") that don't use the term "invasion". I suspect that "invasion" is not a NPOV term in the context of a civil war. Regards, ☺ Coppertwig (talk) 01:37, 21 September 2008 (UTC)

Unblockery

Thank you for your kind comment. Although the autoblock got in the way for a wee while, it was not a problem. I'm not one of those folks who throws toys out of the pram if access to Misplaced Pages editing is impeded, because I have some form of life outside of this beast. It was the actions of the reporting editor that caused me problems - haunting my contribs and such like. -- Scjessey (talk) 02:47, 9 September 2008 (UTC)

LOL: I like the word "unblockery". Thanks for your message. ☺ Coppertwig (talk) 02:54, 9 September 2008 (UTC)

It is an awesome word. Right up there with "gratuitous blockery" (which sounds like a serious plumbing issue). -- Scjessey (talk) 12:12, 9 September 2008 (UTC)

Wait: there's really a Real World out there? And you spend time in it? What's it like? ☺ Coppertwig (talk) 22:53, 9 September 2008 (UTC)

You don't want to know. --Abd (talk) 18:15, 11 September 2008 (UTC) Monitors: this editor has mentioned the unmentionable, per the unmentionable rule, oversight this comment and the ones preceding it, ASAP, they imply there is something worth doing other than editing Misplaced Pages.

Template:Db-g8

Hi Coppertwig (nice name). I just noticed that Happy-melon is "off to distant lands, and will be editing sporadically – if at all – until September 25, 2008." Would you please revise the Db-g8 template I requested at Template:Db-g8. Thanks. Suntag (talk) 16:51, 9 September 2008 (UTC)

 Done! ☺ Coppertwig (talk) 01:30, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

Nifty quotes by Tznkai

• "How something is done is at least as important as why."
• "I am operating completely editor blind, and deliberately so."

Stuff from other people

• ...and nifty pictures about building trust, on Kelly's talk page:

— Preceding unsigned comment added by Coppertwig (talk • contribs) 10:38, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

• ...and a nifty quote by WAS 4.250: "I would just like to reflect here on how far off the initial path we have come. The free culture movement began with copy left software and now has Misplaced Pages as its most public example. The opposite of free culture is called in the movement "permission culture". Stop asking permission. Create." ☺ Coppertwig (talk) 13:13, 13 September 2008 (UTC)

FYI the pictures are not from me.--Tznkai (talk) 14:47, 30 September 2008 (UTC)

Sorry, I didn't mean to imply they were. (I added the subsection heading "Stuff from other people" when I wrote that.)☺ Coppertwig (talk) 23:48, 30 September 2008 (UTC)

Abd; and also by Abd: "If a decision has supposedly been made "by the community," with whom do you discuss it?" Coppertwig (talk) 01:23, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

RfC on conduct of User:Abd, comment requested

Thank you for expressing interest at User:Abd/RfC/Proxy Table in my standing userspace RfC. The first questions to be addressed are at User:Abd/RfC/8.11.08 block, which is a page for the questions and (later) a summary of consensus. Comments and discussion have been begun, by me, at User talk:Abd/RfC/8.11.08 block. Because the first questions address the warning issued to me by Jehochman before the block on 8/11, and should not involve extensive research, I have several times asked Jehochman to comment, but he has declined so far. I have also asked Carcharoth, as suggested by Jehochman, to look at it, but so far he hasn't found time; perhaps he will in the next few days. If you are able to look at the pages ref'd above, and comment regarding the questions, or otherwise as you see fit, it would be appreciated. I am waiting to see if these questions can be resolved and a preliminary consensus found, without going to a wider forum, such as the Village Pump, AN, or a standard user RfC. Thanks for any time you can give this. --Abd (talk) 21:11, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

I'll try to find the time. I'm a bit backlogged at the moment. ☺ Coppertwig (talk) 21:15, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

People should not become involved in this user-controlled RFC - we have an RFC process, Abd has so far found nobody willing to become involved in his illegitimate version of the process. You should tell him (as everyone else has over the last month of him spamming people) that you will be happy to be involved in a real community controlled RFC, not his sham version. He wants to use the results of it to attack a number of dedicated administrators. It could be harmful to your standing as an editor to be seen to be involved in such an attack page. Send him a clear message instead - set up a real RFC. --87.115.22.127 (talk) 21:35, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

Hello, 87.115.22.127. Do I know you? Are you an editor of the Misplaced Pages encyclopedia? Please respect the request at the top of my talk page regarding criticism of other editors. I see nothing "illegitimate" about Abd's process. See also Lar's admirable design of a "modified RfC" here. Where do you suggest centralized discussion in response to your messages take place? ☺ Coppertwig (talk) 22:31, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

The IP and behavior is definitive for banned User:Fredrick day who, half the time, claims I'm obsessed about him and who spends the other half of this time tracking my contributions and popping up whenever he thinks it's possible it will stir up some shit. Yes. He's an editor, and probably an administrator, Fredrick day was a blatant bad hand account, built for aggressive deletion and to express incivility that would get him blocked were he to do it openly. And, of course, eventually did. But he's very careful, probably uses independent ISPs so that checkuser won't catch him. Let me put it this way: I know I'm doing something right when it attracts the dedicated attention of someone like this. --Abd (talk) 05:48, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

Abd, I will try very hard to find time to participate in your RfC and will very probably do so by the end of this weekend. Please respect the request at the top of my talk page about not posting criticism of other editors here. ☺ Coppertwig (talk) 12:14, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

I apologize for any offense from the "criticism" re Fredrick day, though it's generally consensus (except that the probability that he's got an admin account hasn't been discussed widely). In any case, while he was involved in the incident, not in the part that is first examined. It should really be pretty simple; the warning was mostly based on a single edit in my Talk, in response to an administrator. The edit -- actually a pair of edits -- is long, but the question is only whether or not it matched the warning, so, I'd suggest, the warning should be read first. The issue is not whether or not the warning was made in good faith, it may have been, but was it correct? If so, as I've said, I'm probably out of here, I can't trust myself. If not, then I could move to the next step, examining my subsequent behavior; did it justify the block that was based on the warning? My goal is twofold: personally, block log annotation clearing me of the charges involved in the block; but secondly, to demonstrate a minimally disruptive process to deal with user behavioral problems: start with a process under the control of the user, to get non-binding advice as to how to proceed; it presently happens, but not in a coherent, deliberative manner. There are then other possible applications as well. Notice that I set up a "standing RfC." The same structure could deal with any behavioral problem; I get accused of disruption or the like with reasonable frequency. If it were just for the immediate personal aspect, I'd not bother. I'm unblocked, I don't have to do this. In spite of Freddie's protestations, he is the only one who has participated in the actual RfC process, so far, with questions apparently intended to disrupt it; but I extracted what might be general questions from that and included them. I have no intention of excluding anyone, but of maintaining order and civility.--Abd (talk) 14:41, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

Re whether the warning was correct: you've requested comments on your own behaviour, and I expect to give such comments after studying the situation. As far as I know, the person giving the warning hasn't requested comments on their behaviour, so I don't plan to comment on whether the action of giving the warning was "correct" or not. You might want to rephrase the question. ☺ Coppertwig (talk) 17:12, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

The questions in the RfC are phrased correctly. The fourth subquestion was about the propriety of the warning, though, and I've changed that one to focus on the warning as an effective one. I.e., if I was warned, but uncivilly, it might excuse my disregard of the warning. (And it would, of course, raise other questions as well, but that's not the point.) --Abd (talk) 18:07, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

Template:Db doc

Hi Coppertwig. Apparently, {{db-g7}} now requires a rationale for all posts. Would you please revise Template:Db doc to remove the most basic form of the template at Template:Db-g7. Also, I think db-g7 is used alot by the authors themselves. Thus, would you please add the example,
{{db-g7|rationale=For this page, I am the author of the only substantial content and request deletion of it in good faith.}}
to Template:Db doc so that it only appears at Template:Db-g7. I came up with all this via this post. Thanks. -- Suntag (talk) 18:20, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

Hi, Suntag. I looked at the source code for db-g7 and tested it, and I don't believe it requires a rationale for all posts. The link you provided doesn't seem to work. I think it's all fine as it is.

Your username is nice, too: is it a day in some language? ☺ Coppertwig (talk) 20:47, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

Quick favor

Hey Copper, I had a favor to ask. I recently added a few citations and references to the CG page, and was wondering if you could go through the references and combine them how you did the others in the past (I haven't quite mastered that yet) ? I would greatly appreciate it. :o) Thanks old friend and I hope life is well.   Redthoreau (talk) RT 09:30, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

Yes, I'm definitely planning to do that. I'll probably get to it sometime this weekend. After I do that, I'm planning to format references on a bunch of other pages (see User talk:Coppertwig#Semi-automated edits). ☺ Coppertwig (talk) 12:32, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

FYI

Just so you know, I just reverted a comment on your talk page from an IP editor. The IP is an incarnation of User:Nangparbat, a banned user who keeps hopping IPs to make biased edits to articles and harass users who disagree with him. I've been trying to get Abuse Reports to talk to his ISP to get this to stop, but it's not getting anywhere so far. There's more information in several sections of my talk page and User:Hersfold/Vandal watch#Nangparbat if you're interested. Cheers. Hersfold 19:55, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

Congregation Baith Israel Anshei Emes

Thanks! It was a complete (but pleasant) surprise that it was on the front page. Jayjg 02:58, 14 September 2008 (UTC)

breast feeding

I welcome your edits on the breastfeeding article, I don't know if my methods are in line with wikipedia rules or not, but I tend to remove items that are unsuitable, hoping that they will be added in a more suitable way, rather than leaving them intact and waiting for them to be modified.

Of course the "how to" issue is relevant on the article, but also even if it is not a guide, are the items in the how to section actually notable? I am sure that it could be re-written in a manner that does not make it look like a guide, that part is easy, but make sure the items are actually notable. I personally don't think that having every single feeding position is notable - perhaps a link to a site that lists them would be better.

Sennen goroshi (talk) 05:30, 15 September 2008 (UTC)

When a section is unsuitable but can be improved to be suitable, I would suggest rather than just deleting it, moving it to the talk page so the information isn't forgotten. I'm pretty sure that's suggested in some policy or guideline somewhere but I forget where.

I was thinking of perhaps shortening the material about positions, possibly as short as a single sentence.

I think most of the material in that section is notable, basically summarizing information that's provided in numerous books.

I'm a bit busy so it may take me a few days to get around to it, but I'm definitely planning to continue to edit the section. ☺ Coppertwig (talk) 12:34, 15 September 2008 (UTC)

Efficient milk removal depends on correct maternal positioning and latching and normal infant suckling dynamics...

Breastfeeding and human lactation Coppertwig (talk) 12:28, 25 September 2008 (UTC)

Civility RFC question

I have a question about your support comment at Misplaced Pages talk:Editing restrictions/Civility restrictions#Proposal A.2: Low level incivility is a serious problem. You said you disagreed with my comment, then explained "It's a mistake to ignore incivility until the victim complains." I argued that ignored incivility should still be dealt with, even if there is little apparent effect, which would seem to agree with your statement. I was wondering if you had misread my comment, or if I just don't understand the disagreement. Pagrashtak 16:07, 16 September 2008 (UTC)

OK, I think I see what's going on. You had said, "If someone engages in a pattern of low-level incivility, but the target of that incivility simply ignores it and continues with whatever he is doing, I would say that the incivility had little effect, but should still be dealt with." Perhaps I agree with the "but should still be dealt with" part of this sentence, though I'd have to know more about how it would be dealt with. However, I disagree with the first part of the sentence. You would say that the incivility had little effect; I disagree with that, and would say that it may or may not have had a tremendous effect on the victim, an effect which is however not visible on-wiki because of the advice in WP:NPA to ignore attacks against oneself in many situations. In my comment supporting A2, I stated that I disagreed with Jim Miller and with you. The first sentence following that explains my disagreement with Jim Miller's comment and makes no sense in response to your comments. The next two sentences after that explain my disagreement with your comment. The order of the sentences is the same as the order in which I mentioned you and the other user. I hope that clears things up. ☺ Coppertwig (talk) 16:22, 16 September 2008 (UTC)

Ah, I see. We don't disagree, although it's not clear from my comment. I was pointing out a counter-example, not making a blanket statement—saying it is possible for someone to ignore incivility, (meaning truly ignore, not building internal anger) thus giving it little effect. You are correct that it is also possible (and more probable) for incivility to have little observed effect, but great actual effect. Pagrashtak 18:29, 16 September 2008 (UTC)

Oh, I see: you meant the person really ignores it. OK. It was just a matter of how I interpreted your comment. We don't actually disagree. If you like, I can post an explanation/clarification on the discussion page, but I think it's likely simplest to just leave things as they are. ☺ Coppertwig (talk) 18:33, 16 September 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, and I can see how it would be interpreted that way. I clarified my own comment in case that's how others were reading it. Feel free to leave yours as is if you want. Thanks, Pagrashtak 18:50, 16 September 2008 (UTC)

Thank you

Thanks for the barnstar! It is much appreciated. Kindest regards,AlphaEta 23:42, 16 September 2008 (UTC)

Arbitration Request

Thanks for adding the signature. I've never done a request for arbitration before (probably evident by the history log of the page). I didn't think I needed to sign the section for Cmmmmm's statement, as I thought that as the filer of the request, and the text used, that it would be evident that I put it there.

I'm not an expert either! However, I think normally a section titled "statement by Cmmmm" would be added by Cmmmm, and I thought it would be useful to clarify and to provide the time so people could find the diff if they wanted. ☺ Coppertwig (talk) 18:33, 17 September 2008 (UTC)

True, and if Cmmmm would actually make any statement relating to the specific issues raised, I would have included it. Or rather, I would have gone for a mediation request instead. However, the user simply won't discuss the specifics. (Also, the user in question has specific statements on their user page explicitly indicating bias against JWs.)--Jeffro77 (talk) 18:40, 17 September 2008 (UTC)

3RR

Thanks Coppertwig, the heads-up is much appreciated. I suspected I might be, but the reverts are simply me undoing removal of proper sources, so if it does result in admin intervention I'd frankly welcome it. Prophaniti (talk) 00:28, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

Sorry about the removal of my block warning: That genuinely wasn't an attempt to hide/shift it, simply because I'd over-looked the part saying it shouldn't be removed until the block expires. Cheers. Prophaniti (talk) 23:03, 21 September 2008 (UTC)

No problem! I think that's just so that if you do a second unblock request, the admins can easily notice the first one. That didn't really come up this time, as such, anyway. Welcome back. ☺ Coppertwig (talk) 23:17, 21 September 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for the warning

I very much appreciate it.GreekParadise (talk) 03:04, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

You're welcome, and thanks for taking it in a positive spirit! Although it seems my warning may have been somewhat redundant!! ☺ Coppertwig (talk) 12:39, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

Chiropractic 2

You have not explained your revert. Improvements were made to the vaccination section. You did not explain it. Improvements were made to the Gallup poll text. You did not explain your removal of reliable references. You added Simon-says text that went against WP:ASF policy. We can assert it when no serious dispute exists. Please provided evidence of a dispute. QuackGuru 18:19, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for your message. I'll try to find time for a proper reply later. ☺ Coppertwig (talk) 19:32, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

In the interim, your edit may be reverted due to the unexplained revert per Coppertwig's edit summary (unexplained revert). You reverted an editor because you felt it was unexplained. However, you did the same thing. You have not explained your revert. QuackGuru 21:21, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

Explanation of my partial revert of 23:09 17 September 2008 at Chiropractic with edit summary "Partially reverting unexplained revert; possibly user mistook it for vandalism?":

• Capital V on "vertebral": unimportant (part of piped link; invisible)
• restoring the word "considered" in "sustained by ideas such as subluxation that are considered significant barriers to scientific progress within chiropractic": see diff of 21:36 17 September Note that Levine2112 and Fyslee replied to this with "Agreed"; and see diff of 22:42 20 September 2008.
• Re the Gallup poll: see diff of 19:03 17 September and diff of 22:50 20 September. I suggest that we wait until we've agreed on the wording before inserting this.
• Restoring the words "what are characterized as" in "and was hampered by what are characterized as antiscientific and pseudoscientific ideas that sustained the profession in its long battle with organized medicine": See diff of 21:36 17 September 2008 and diff of 22:42 20 September 2008.
• Restoring the words "what is considered by many chiropractic researchers to be" in "among chiropractors; the other end employs what is considered by many chiropractic researchers to be antiscientific reasoning and unsubstantiated claims,"; this has been much discussed, and as I said in the diff of 21:36 17 September 2008 I oppose deleting those words for similar reasons as the others; feel free to ask about this specifically if you'd like an answer for this specific edit.
• Re my opposition to changing "have been called" to "are" in "that have been called ethically suspect when they let practitioners maintain their beliefs to patients' detriment." Again, this has been much discussed. See diff of 21:36 17 September 2008.
• Re nbsp: I don't know what the correct or best format is; I reverted this by accident along with the substantive changes.
• Vaccination section: Oops! I think I thought my revert wasn't changing anything in this section, but perhaps I did revert stuff there. I'd have to catch up with the talk page discussion to figure out which version I think is better. I apologize for the confusion caused by my reverting the addition of a blank line at the top of the section, making it harder to compare diffs. ☺ Coppertwig (talk) 23:27, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

Per WP:ASF, we can assert it as fact when no serious dispute exists. Please provide evidence of a serious dispute such as references. QuackGuru 23:31, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

Serious dispute of what? ☺ Coppertwig (talk) 23:33, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

Please provied evidence of a serious dispute of the text that you added atrribution to. Per WP:ASF, when no serious dispute exists, we can assert it. QuackGuru 23:36, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

No, you provide evidence that these are "facts" about which there is "no serious dispute". I dispute that claim. Some of these are clearly opinions, not facts, as is obvious just from reading them. ☺ Coppertwig (talk) 23:41, 20 September 2008 (UTC) Oops! I'm sorry about the tone of this comment. I'll review Techniques for handling emotions when editing. ☺ Coppertwig (talk) 13:07, 21 September 2008 (UTC)

The text is referenced and not disputed among the sources provided in the article. The article provides evidence there is "no serious dispute" from the references in the article. It is irrelevant you dispute the claim. We should stick to the sources and not let personal opinion go against WP:ASF policy. You have admitted you personally dispute the claim among reliable sources. You disagree with the text. We don't add attribution because you disagree with the experts or reliable sources. See WP:ASF, we can assert it as fact when no evidence of a serious disputed is presented. Now, please provided evidence of a serious dispute. QuackGuru 23:58, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

Absence

Hi Coppertwig! Sorry, I've been offline for some months. I just moved to Amman in order to do my MSc. Unfortunately, I won't have much time for Misplaced Pages for the next months, but I wanted to thank you for all the help and support you gave to me and the WikiProject Water supply and sanitation by country. If you find the time, I suggest that you adopt Anunezsanchez instead of me. She did a number of excellent articles mainly on irrigation and water resources management. Thanks again for all your help and greetings from Jordan! --Kerres (Talk) 15:56, 21 September 2008 (UTC)

Hi! Nice to hear from you! I hope you enjoy your time in Jordan and learn lots of interesting things! You've made valuable contributions to Misplaced Pages and I hope you'll be back at some later stage. ☺ Coppertwig (talk) 16:06, 21 September 2008 (UTC)

CSD G8 help

Hello! As you have worked on {{db-g8}}, I was wondering if you wouldn't mind working on it a little more? Specifically, there was discussion at WT:CSD about broadening G8 to cover subpages and such. This is not a problem, but then I wanted to preserve the history of the templates as they were, so I moved the original {{db-g8}} to {{db-talk}} and {{db-t4}} to {{db-subpage}} as specific instances of G8, with a new template at {{db-g8}} (a modified copy of the original). I hope this is not making you cringe. Everything works fine, but obviously the way that these specific instance templates are handled is more delicate than that, as I realized when I saw {{db-disambig}}. I would greatly appreciate your help in adjusting the template code wherever necessary so that these worked as elegantly as they did before I got involved. Note that I have not touched the R1 templates, even though this CSD was merged with G8, as two editors objected after the merger. Even though it was discussed before and R1 is now clearly redundant, I don't wish to irritate anyone any further at this point, so I am awaiting a reply before proceeding with that. Thanks for any help you can give. ~ JohnnyMrNinja 08:43, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for your suggestion

Thanks for your kind suggestion on the article Gaogouli County! I have been expanding the article. And I found that the Gaogouli County was not always part of Xuantu Commandery. It's in some era not part of Xuantu Commandery, but part of Liaodong Commandery, ect. So I think the redirection is not right. Thanks again and best wishes! -Dicting (talk) 12:25, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

On personal attack, the boundaries.

I just noticed this: . In the light of our discussions, what do you think? I agree that there was a level of incivility involved in the situation diff'd. However, it didn't rise, apparently, in the judgment of the community participating, to personal attack as in WP:NPA. --Abd (talk) 18:27, 25 September 2008 (UTC)

Shortly after you posted this message, I posted a message to one of the users involved. I'm sorry I didn't get around to answering your question. I was going to look further into the situation. I'll just answer now based on what I know.

I think this is what happens: someone complains about a personal attack against themself. One tends to exaggerate how bad an attack against oneself is, so the person figures that it's a very bad attack and expects others to "do something" about it: after all, there's a policy, so there must be some sort of enforcement. Well, the others see someone complaining about an attack against themself, and figure that the person is trying to get ahead in a content dispute by getting the other person in trouble. They figure their only options are (1) block the attacker, or (2) argue that the attack is mild. In order to block the attacker a bunch of conditions would have to be met, and having the situation presented to them by the attackee doesn't tend to be a factor in favour of that decision. So they argue that the attack is mild and that the person should ignore it. This is very unfortunate, because the attacked person feels abandoned, unfaired-against etc. and might leave Misplaced Pages as a result. The people at the noticeboard completely forget that there are other options beside blocking the attacker or supporting the attacker: they can gently suggest to the attacker not to do that; and/or they can offer sympathy to the attacked and apologize that they can't do any more than that.
I find that on Misplaced Pages, complaining about an attack against oneself doesn't tend to get a beneficial response. It doesn't have to be that way. However, since it is: well, at least instead of telling someone the attack is mild and they should ignore it, it might be better to explain nicely that on Misplaced Pages, we don't usually get anywhere by complaining about attacks against ourself and we do well when we DefendEachOther. If we don't explain this, people might get the impression that they're supposed to not only ignore attacks against themself, but also ignore attacks against others; and then what happens to enforcing the civility policies? ☺ Coppertwig (talk) 00:49, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

This analysis is pretty accurate, however, there is an additional factor that I've seen in operation ever since I was a conference moderator on the WELL (virtual community)in the 1980s. The person who has been abused and attacked, if they make a fuss, will be presumed to be the problem. After all, the other editors didn't have a problem until this person started complaining. A number of things were new about computer conferencing. One was that there was a complete record. "He said, she said," wasn't legitimately a matter of controversy. Except it still was! People wouldn't look back, they relied on their impressions, often formed after the fact based on loyalties, general affiliations, etc. It still happens here. It still happens even if a writer lays out diffs with complete evidence for what they are claiming. It takes a very tight environment to overcome this, or luck, i.e., that admins or editors do take the trouble to investigate. The theory is that a closing admin, for any process that results in a significant decision (delete, block, restrict), the admin is supposed to independently review the evidence, the community has merely blazed a path. However, too often, the admin just relies on whatever arguments they like, or on the preponderance of !votes. It usually works. Unfortunately, when it fails, it can make quite a mess. AN/I is particularly hopeless. It works for certain things. But it's no place to take any true controversy. It should be like 911. You don't call (or at least shouldn't call) 911 for anything that requires complex legal judgment, a decision of guilt, etc. Rather, you call 911 to stop immediate harm or likelihood of harm. The police do not decide guilt, they only go so far as to decide probable cause for action, and their primary function is protection, not judgment. Without a court order, the police won't repossess a car, as to matters of disorder, they may order someone to stop something, they might even arrest a person, but they make no decision about final disposition on all these things.

We have generally, in modern societies, rigorously separated the executive power (which includes the police) from the judicial power (which decides fact). The executive only decides fact where necessary for immediate action. I.e., if they see a robbery in progress, they don't have to get a court order to stop it. So, here, administrators can and should use their tools to stop abuse. If it appears to an administrator that someone is causing disruption, they should, in my opinion, immediately warn and block quickly, maybe even skipping the warning (with a short block). Yes, that includes me. But such blocks should create no presumption of guilt or wrong-doing on the part of the editor who is blocked. Rather, that should require some judgment, and admins should have no specially privileged position in respect to that. (Unless we really do decide that those buttons are special, a "big deal.")

Misplaced Pages grew like Topsy. Some really excellent thinking and experience went into it. But parts of it became rather crystallized and rigid and highly resistant to change, I'd say, prematurely. The structure wasn't scalable without damage. There are ways to fix this, but they will unfortunately challenge certain constituencies which like things the way they are. They don't mind that Misplaced Pages is fouling its nest, building up reservoirs of ill-will out there, needlessly. They think of those offended people as vandals, POV pushers, fanatics, fringe theorists, promoters of fancruft, etc. There is such, and there will always be such, but we create much more than would happen naturally. Random vandalism from adolescents who think it's wonderful to replace pages with "PENIS" will always happen. But that's not controversial, even these vandals understand that their stuff is going to be removed. My suspicion is that if we look back at long-term vandals, we'll find an editor who was abused in some way, and who decided he wasn't going to take it and go away quietly. Not always, I'm sure, the world is vast and there will be all kinds of people attracted here. But commonly. And what I've found, talking with experts in various fields, is that they have a very low opinion of Misplaced Pages. It does not need to be that way. And the problem isn't fancruft, that doesn't create any problem with experts. It creates a problem with fans! We don't have mechanisms for soberly looking at the real problems, coming to some very well-considered and well-informed judgment, and then maintaining that judgment, with narrow exceptions. ArbComm isn't designed for this. We need deliberative mechanisms that are scalable. ArbComm members do realize the problem, a number of them were working on proposals for a Misplaced Pages Assembly, to take on this kind of task. However, they are likely to recreate political systems that will weaken or destroy the wiki model; it's classic when direct democracies face the problems of scale. There is an alternative, it's been proposed, and I was astonished to see the violence with which it was rejected.... That it would be rejected, the first time it was proposed, did not surprise me, that's normal. It's a new idea. That efforts were made to eradicate the proposal is what surprised me. See WP:PRX which did not deal with actual proposals for structural change, it would merely have started up an experiment to see what editors would do with the ability to easily assign a proxy. WP:PRX didn't change any policies, proxies would have had no special powers, they wouldn't be allowed to !vote for others.... but it would start to become possible to analyze vote counts to see how representative they were of the general editorial community. And just the possibility of that, one might suspect, was seen as quite a threat by some. --Abd (talk) 20:30, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

Re:Thanks for supporting another editor

Replied on my talk page. Bstone (talk) 02:19, 26 September 2008 (UTC)

Just FYI

I'm planning on stalking your edits for the next few days.--Tznkai (talk) 02:22, 28 September 2008 (UTC)

You're quite welcome to do so. ☺ Coppertwig (talk) 12:28, 28 September 2008 (UTC)

Jewish dates

Hi, C-Twig. This may help: http://www.hebcal.com/converter/ -- Avi (talk) 01:48, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

Extra eyes

You seem levelheaded and intelligent. I'd like your input on WP:AE#Domer48.--Tznkai (talk) 23:48, 30 September 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for the compliment! I'll try, but I'm rather busy. I may have more time on the weekend. ☺ Coppertwig (talk) 10:37, 1 October 2008 (UTC)

I read over the discussion but didn't have anything to add. The people involved seemed to be coming to a consensus on how to handle the situation. Arguments about flags should refer to reliable sources, though: I might comment about that later. ☺ Coppertwig (talk) 12:54, 5 October 2008 (UTC)

QuackGuru 2

Thanks for your comment at Talk:Chiropractic#Topic_ban, could you comment there on exactly what you'd like to change? Tim Vickers (talk) 00:05, 5 October 2008 (UTC)

I saw that question. I might reply another day. Sorry, I'm rather busy and that would take time to think through.☺ Coppertwig (talk) 00:09, 5 October 2008 (UTC)

OK, no problem, I'm not going to make any decision this weekend. Tim Vickers (talk) 00:41, 5 October 2008 (UTC)

Hi Coppertwig. I just noticed your message at QG's talk page. I basically agree with it all. It's a common tactic he uses. The first part applies even more to Levine2112, so it might be a good idea to also give him the same warning, just with an added "not": "Repetition of the argument that spinal manipulation is NOT related to chiropractic." He is the one who is pushing his OR twisting of Ernst's statement to make that point, and QG is responding to him. (This is no defense of QG.) You need to read this. It will give you some background to understand what Levine2112's up to. -- Fyslee / talk 07:17, 5 October 2008 (UTC)

I was clarifying a warning made by Lifebaka, not making a warning on my own initiative. I haven't had time to follow the discussions at Chiropractic much recently. If you think a warning to Levine2112 is warranted, I encourage you to be bold. ☺ Coppertwig (talk) 12:52, 5 October 2008 (UTC)

Battle of Jenin copyvio

Hi, Coppertwig. I've done some editing to this section, including copyediting and using other sources. I have said so on the talk page, but you did not respond, so I thought I'd notify you here. In the meantime, another user has reverted, which I don't like and have said so on the talk page, but I don't want to edit war without clear consensus. Anyway, here is the new version on the temp page. If you approve, can you retract the request for arbitration? Thanks. -- Nudve (talk) 18:54, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

I saw your message but haven't had time to look at it yet. Hopefully within a couple of days. I'm not sure what the procedure is: not sure if I can retract it once it's listed at WP:CP. ☺ Coppertwig (talk) 00:32, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

Hi. Well, I suppose it was all done in good faith. I guess the thing I'm upset about is the waiting period. Nobody really knows how long it's going to be before an admin actually looks at it. I'm not sure I understand this policy. You never really asked me, and instead simply blanked most of the section, which made it pretty much a one line section. -- Nudve (talk) 15:38, 11 October 2008 (UTC)

I believe I followed Misplaced Pages policy in a reasonable way. (See copyright policy and instructions at the copyright noticeboard.) I spent some effort paraphrasing, shortening and reworking the section so that it would no longer be a copyright violation; I figured that this was a first step and hoped that others, or possibly I myself, would add information from other sources to round out the section. Display will vary from one computer to another, but as it displays with the current settings on the computer I'm using, the Report section I wrote is about 7 lines.

Misplaced Pages policy is clear that copyrighted material is not supposed to be displayed in our articles without permission from the copyright holder or a fair use rationale. Displaying copyrighted information could leave Wikimedia open to lawsuits which could potentially bankrupt the Foundation, compromising the ability to display millions of pages of information, so I see following the copyright policy as being much more urgent than providing the ideal information to the reader for a period of time in any one article.

In future, if someone identifies something as a copyright violation or potential copyright violation, please don't restore the disputed text to the article before it has been established by rough consensus or by an uninvolved admin that it is not a copyright violation. What you could have done instead in this case is replace my shortened version by a writing longer version which was clearly not a copyright violation. Regards, ☺ Coppertwig (talk) 16:08, 11 October 2008 (UTC)

Further explanation of policy: Usually the template is used to blank an entire article. It's done that way so that the potentially copyrighted text is not displayed during discussion: this is a priority. There's a 7-day wait period after listing an article at WP:CP, which is to allow time for editors to rewrite a non-copyright-violation version (as we've been doing), or to obtain permission from the copyright holder to display the text. Normally, I would also have notified the editor who contributed the material, so that they would have had a chance to do one of those things; however, I believe you were the one who introduced the disputed text and you were clearly soon aware of the situation, so I figured I could skip that step. After 7 days, an admin will look at it (when some admin has time to do so), and figure out how to handle the situation. ☺ Coppertwig (talk) 16:17, 11 October 2008 (UTC)

Fine, but there's another (and better, IMHO) version waiting to be inserted instead. There's no objection to it so far, so what's the point in waiting? -- Nudve (talk) 16:32, 11 October 2008 (UTC)

I'm not sure, but I think the idea is that the admin who handles the listing will judge whether the new version is also a copyright violation or not. ☺ Coppertwig (talk) 21:19, 11 October 2008 (UTC)

Busier than usual

Approximately Oct. 8-10 I expect to be busier than usual in real life. I won't be able to keep up with most of the things I'd like to do on-wiki, and might actually have to resort to setting priorities. ☺ Coppertwig (talk) 12:16, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

Circumcision comments

In this case Blackworm explicitly asked why I would be more qualified to judge these matters than him (though he stated it in a more insulting way). As such, I'd pretty much have to discuss him and me, wouldn't I? Jayjg 19:28, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

Not necessarily; perhaps only if you wanted to argue that you're more qualified; and your answer wouldn't necessarily have had to be given on an article talk page, and in the middle of a thread whose purpose was discussion of some specific article content. ☺ Coppertwig (talk) 20:47, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

Reply to Interpretation of "be bold"

Here is my reply. A few editors disagreed with improving the article but the goal was to improve the article. It was better to improve the article than to wait six months to improve the article. Levine2112 is still discussing OR issues when there never was any OR. Levine2112's improvements are indirect. For example, he proposed a hypothetical question. The result was a real proposal to improve the article. Levine2112 improves the article indirectly. The more Levine2112 resists the more the article improves. How ironic. BTY, I could not find any specific Misplaced Pages policy that reflects the template at the top of the chiro talk page. Sometimes it is best to ignore all rules to improve the article. See WP:IAR. QuackGuru 04:30, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

Please don't use the phrase "improve the article" when talking to someone who doesn't consider those edits to be improvements. It's more polite to use a phrase such as "what I consider to be improvements to the article" or "improve the article, in my opinion". I don't agree that the edits you're referring to were improvements. I think maybe some were improvements and some weren't. I think that a collection of edits which include some improvements and some things which are not improvements are (usually) collectively not an improvement. I think it's better to wait until there's a rough consensus on the talk page before making substantial changes. I don't think anyone "disagreed with improving the article". What they disagreed with was changes which you consider to be improvements to the article, but which they don't consider to be improvements. I think it's misleading to say that people "disagreed with improving the article" unless they actually said those words; please don't say that about people. Instead, you can say "disagreed with changes which, in my opinion, improve the article".

Please don't say "there never was any OR" when talking to someone who has expressed a neutral position on whether there was or was not OR. It would be more polite to say "there never was any OR, in my opinion". As I think I've said before, my position on that longstanding OR issue is neutral.

Please express your comments in a way which shows awareness of and respect for the variety of opinions about article content which exist among editors. See WP:CONSENSUS. ☺ Coppertwig (talk) 14:16, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

Also, please see Respecting others' opinions (section of an essay in my userspace). ☺ Coppertwig (talk) 14:21, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

Theses are the bold edits I was mentioning. According to Levine2112 there is still no concensus for the mass improvements* (in accordance with NPOV according to QuackGuru*). I remember explaining to you consensus can be misused. Editors can block imnprovements* by saying no consensus without a logical reason. The effectiveness section contains general spinal manipulation research. Top researchers outside of Misplaced Pages are doing the same thing I did on Misplaced Pages. When we are following the experts it is clear it can't be OR. If I tried to add the effectiveness section today it would be reverted again. The greatest respect is to improve* the article and ignore editors who make bogus arguments. If Larry Sanger ran this place, there would be a policy called WP:NEVERASSUMEGOODFAITH! In the real world, AGF is extremely dangerous. I can be WP:HONEST with the situation.

The template at the top of the page is not directly part of any Misplaced Pages policy. I don't see different rules for different articles. I could not find any policy on Misplaced Pages that mentions the template.

Misplaced Pages is not considered a reliable source. If an old BLP article was linked to from Misplaced Pages it would be considered a BLP violation. Editors get blocked for removing a BLP violation. The way things work on Misplaced Pages is sometimes backwords and completely wrong. If someone wants to be an admin they should not be honest. And always keep to oneself and stay away from too much conflict. A person should always remain quiet and don't speak up. The more I did what was right the more I got blocked. Funny how things work (or don't work around here). Lol! QuackGuru 17:48, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

Yes, sometimes editors block consensus. They may have a reason that seems valid to them. According to WP:CONSENSUS, "Minority opinions typically reflect genuine concerns..." However, before editing substantial changes into the Chiropractic article, there should be at least rough consensus and there should have been a reasonable amount of time for discussion.

There may not be a policy specifically describing that template, but its meaning is obvious. In my opinion, the policy that applies here is WP:CONSENSUS. If the template is there and has been there for a while, we can assume that there is consensus for having it there and that editors should follow its instructions. If you don't want to follow those instructions, you can suggest removing the template, and can remove it if, after a reasonable length of time for discussion, there is consensus for removing it. However, at the moment you may still need to follow similar instructions based on the warning from TimVickers even if the template is removed. It's not a good idea to leave the template in place and ignore what it says, because then different editors would be following different rules. I think that the situations in which I think you ignored the template are exactly the types of situations that the template was designed to be used in, so using IAR in those situations is not a good idea. (See WP:WIARM.) ☺ Coppertwig (talk) 21:12, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

Supporting harassment is not right

An editor accused me of vandalism not once but twice. It was clearly bad faih for that editor to accuse me of vandalism. I remember a while back an editor was blocked for accusing another editor of vandalism.

I was not giving that editor a hard time The editor falsey accused me of vandalism and made reposts on my talk page. You have made a false statement. Please stop with your bad faith allegation against me. QuackGuru 19:12, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

Per WP:HUSH,

Placing numerous false or questionable 'warnings' on a user's talk page, restoring such comments after a user has removed them, placing 'suspected sockpuppet' and similar tags on the user page of active contributors, and otherwise trying to display material the user may find annoying or embarrassing in their user space is a common form of harassment.

User pages are provided so that editors can provide some general information about themselves and user talk pages are to facilitate communication. Neither is intended as a 'wall of shame' and should not be used to display supposed problems with the user unless the account has been blocked as a result of those issues. Any sort of content which truly needs to be displayed, or removed, should be immediately brought to the attention of admins rather than edit warring to enforce your views on the content of someone else's user space.

This was harassment which you supported. My edits were not vandalism. QuackGuru 00:49, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

Please show and not assert your view would be more helpful

Your comment is not backed up with any references to support your view of original research. However, another comment has provided evidence that chiropractic is directly related. I am having trouble understanding your agreement with Surtuz's statement when no evidence of orginal research has been presented. Consensus is based on good faith comments and editing. You have not shown there is any WP:OR. QuackGuru 19:23, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

Fyslee proposed a very specific question and insisted that people only answer that specific question, not any broader question. My comment means that when the result of the poll is used, then it should be used only in the context of that specific question, not interpreted as applying to any broader or different question. My comment is based on the way the question and poll were constructed; I see no need to prove that there is or is not OR in order to support that comment. Thank you very much for drawing Eubulides' reply to my attention. ☺ Coppertwig (talk) 19:29, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

Editors have provided evidence that there is no OR and we are doing what reserachers are doing outside of Misplaced Pages but you are unable to provide any evidence of OR.

Coppertwig wrote in part: My comment is based on the way the question and poll were constructed; I see no need to prove that there is or is not OR in order to support that comment.

I am asking for any evidence of OR. We should not continue a discussion when OR does not exist. Continuing the OR discussion when editors can't provide any evidence of OR is not productive. QuackGuru 19:37, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

Coppertwig, you have properly stuck to the subject of the RfC. The OR business is another matter, so don't let QG sidetrack you. Keeping the OR matter and this RfC separate is a good idea. Just because some editors didn't do that is no justification for QG to demand that you also get involved in that discussion in the context of this RfC. -- Fyslee / talk 16:15, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

I have responded to your comment and other comments. I have noticed you are unable to provide a single reference that demonstrated general SM is not related to chiropractic but editors have provided evidence that it is directly related. QuackGuru 22:16, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

If you currently believe there is any OR in the article then I request you provide evidence such as a reference to support your position. QuackGuru 16:17, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

There never was any OR in the chiropractic article IMHO. Editors asserted but have not shown any evidence of OR. After about six months, editors have been given plenty of time to provide evidence of OR. It's time to remove the OR tag. QuackGuru 01:21, 2 November 2008 (UTC)

Do you think there is any OR in the chiropractic article? QuackGuru 23:15, 3 November 2008 (UTC)

Notification

The RFC was very clear. There was consensus that spinal manipulation is relevant to chiropractic. Editors should avoid arguing on the grounds that there is OR in chiropractic based on general SM research. If editors still have concerns about OR it should not be based on claims that SM is not related when there is a clear consensus that SM is related according to the closing administrator. Editors need to abide by the closing of the RFC. Here are more comments from the closing administrator. Please abide. QuackGuru 22:30, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

Spinal manipulation is directly related to chiropractic according to the references presented. SM is a technique strongly associated and directly related to chiropractic. Per WP:OR, when SM is directly connected to chiropractic it is okay to cite research that has a direct connection. QuackGuru 16:33, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

Timotheos Evangelinidis

This message was placed automatically, and it is possible that the bot is confused and found similarity where none actually exists. If that is the case, you can remove the tag from the article and it would be appreciated if you could drop a note on the maintainer's talk page. CorenSearchBot (talk) 00:11, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

Don't worry! Apparently that website licenses its material under GFDL, so there's apparently no problem with copyright. See my message at Talk:Timotheos Evangelinidis. Thank you for contributing to Misplaced Pages! Coppertwig (talk) 17:45, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

Thanks mate. J Bar (talk) 22:24, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

No problem! ☺ Coppertwig (talk) 00:32, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

Simple Wikiquote

Please the read second paragraph of the bottom of this. Thank you. -- American Eagle (talk) 22:31, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

Better check it again - you may remove it. Thanks -- American Eagle (talk) 03:30, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

Removal of comment

Blackworm claims that a comment I made a year and a half ago is how I "really" feel about a current issue. That's an abusive misuse of my statements, and in any event is a personal comment having nothing whatsoever to do with article content. Jayjg 01:24, 19 October 2008 (UTC)

Thank you for the explanation. Now I understand why you consider it misleading. I agree that a comment from so long ago can't necessarily be assumed to represent your current position. I also agree that it's a personal comment not directly related to article content. May I suggest discussing it politely with Blackworm on his talk page? I'm willing to act as a sort-of mediator. ☺ Coppertwig (talk) 01:32, 19 October 2008 (UTC)

Jayjg, per Misplaced Pages policies which have been quoted, please don't edit or delete another editor's comments (except under certain circumstances such as vandalism, BLP etc., which have not arisen here). Since you consider the comment to be misleading, I suggest you ask Blackworm to modify it. I think it would help if you state how your current views differ from the views you expressed in that diff. Although I said above I understood why you consider it misleading, I only understand that your views might have changed, but don't know how they might have changed or even whether they've changed; I think it would help to clarify this. Also note my suggestions re the quotation marks around the word "really". You linked to Misplaced Pages:Talk page guidelines#Behavior that is unacceptable. That guideline states, "When describing other people's contributions or edits, use diffs." Blackworm did use a diff. The guideline also states, "As a rule, do not edit others' comments, including signatures." (Related discussions: User talk:Jayjg#Comment on deletion; User talk:Blackworm#User_talk:Jayjg#Comment_on_deletion.) ☺ Coppertwig (talk) 14:44, 30 October 2008 (UTC)

My apologies, Jayjg; when I said, above, that I understood, maybe I didn't actually understand correctly. I thought you meant that your views had changed; but maybe you meant that you had been commenting on one situation, and Blackworm was stating that the diff showed your views "on that", which seemed to refer to a different situation. ☺ Coppertwig (talk) 17:23, 30 October 2008 (UTC)

1. The comment I made 1.5 years ago was about a different situation. Blackworm has no right to misrepresent it as a comment about a current situation, per WP:TALK.

2. The comment Blackworm made had nothing whatsoever to do with article content, but rather was about me, violating both WP:TALK and WP:NPA.

That's why it won't be staying on the Talk: page. If he insists on playing games instead of trying to improve articles, I'll simply revert him. Jayjg 00:51, 31 October 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for calling my edits "good faith edits". I'll reply more later. ☺ Coppertwig (talk) 00:55, 31 October 2008 (UTC)

Re (1.): I agree that Blackworm has no evidence that views you expressed in the past, in a different situation, apply to a particular more recent situation. However, Blackworm may have been intending the word "that" to mean something more general and abstract than the recent situation, and may not have intended his comment to be interpreted as asserting that the comments applied to the recent situation.

Re (2.): I agree that the comment was not about article content and was therefore inappropriate on an article talk page.

However, apparently you and I disagree on how to respond to inappropriate comments. I consider that an appropriate first step is either to resolve to (permanently) ignore it, or to discuss it with the editor on their talk page. Rather than modifying or deleting another editor's comments, the usual accepted practice, in my opinion, is to try to persuade the editor to modify their own comments.

If you would like to persuade Blackworm to retract, delete, modify or strike out the disputed edit, I suggest that it would likely help if you would strike out some or all of the following words in the discussion preceding the disputed edit: "that might help clear up your confusion"; "as opposed to over 50% of yours."; "rather distasteful"; and "(though he stated it in more dramatic way)". These words don't seem to me to be discussing article content, and seem to me to be unnecessary to the discussion; some of them seem to me to be about another editor, and all of them could be considered to be essentially about another editor rather than about article content.

Re "or pursuing absurd and petty vendettas." and "if he insists on playing games " (in your comment above): I don't think Blackworm would describe his behaviour in those terms. Please assume good faith, or at least formulate your comments as if you do. ☺ Coppertwig (talk) 15:40, 31 October 2008 (UTC)

Thank you

I have tried to actively promote civility for many years. Thank you. Phil Burnstein (talk) 12:14, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

You're welcome; and thank you for actively promoting civility, too. I wonder what I did specifically to earn your thanks this time. ☺ Coppertwig (talk) 13:42, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

RfC

I trust in the interest of fairness you will also file an RfC for Avi, Jayjg, and JakeW. -- DanBlackham (talk) 00:52, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

I would consider it, if the situation seemed to warrant it. I've commented to each of the users you named about messages of theirs, but on balance I have had considerably more issues with messages posted by Blackworm. ☺ Coppertwig (talk) 16:36, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

For my part, I'm curious about what you think of these edits in the context of this discussion. Blackworm (talk) 06:33, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

I think that Wikipedians vary in their opinion of how long ago a diff can be and be considered to represent recent behaviour in some sense. I pretty much restricted myself to diffs in the last 3 months, thinking that few Wikipedians would consider more distant ones to be recent. As the Serenity prayer says, it's a good idea to accept those things we cannot change, and as a friend of mine pointed out, everything that's in the past is in that category. Another friend advised "staying in the present," which sometimes means not complaining about anything from more than a few seconds ago.

Whether a diff is relevant depends partly on what it's being used for, not only on the numerical value of how old it is. The mere fact that I pretty much refrained from using older diffs myself doesn't mean I think it's necessarily wrong for someone else to do so.

I think that if a medical association doesn't want a 10-year-old document to be cited as representing their policy, then they can issue a new statement; that if a Wikipedian doesn't want an old diff cited as expressing their views then they can state clearly that they no longer hold those views and what their new views are; and that if a Wikipedian doesn't want old diffs cited as representing their behaviour then they can state in what way their practices have changed to preclude such behaviour being repeated. ☺ Coppertwig (talk) 23:21, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

Re: Options

Hi. Thank you for your insightful message on my talk page. It is much appreciated. I did realize I could've done something better when it became clear that I was in danger of being blocked as well. I don't fault you for filing a 3RR report, because you did what you felt needed to be done. I already spoke with another editor regarding the "rvv" edit summary, and I know that it was incorrect. It was knee-jerk, and I was mostly concerned with the page being disrupted for as short a time as possible. The additions violated WP:V, WP:NPOV, and WP:OR, so I did not feel leaving the content there for the sake of not violating 3RR would benefit our readers, the editors of the article, or indeed, anyone other than the IP who posted it (and I use that word because it was basically a message board rant). Next time I encounter something like this, I will initiate a talk page discussion. I just hadn't encountered anything like this before, as in my experience, whenever editors are slapped with a warning they stop doing whatever it is they're doing (I know I do). I should've known better since circumcision is a controversial topic. Thanks again. --Pwnage8 (talk) 16:20, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

Nobody was around at the time. The awkward situation came about precisely because no one else was there. Although, another editor made the first revert, so that should've sent red flags to the user. In other words, I was the other person. I explained to the anon that the content in the article was arrived at by consensus to be NPOV, and that his edits violated that (which they did). A normal editor's neutrality is the POV-pusher's POV. If there is any POV dispute, it's that the article is too biased in favor of circumcision. --Pwnage8 (talk) 17:51, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

Possibly unfree image

To list at WP:PUI: Image:Louis vd Watt (238x320).jpg. ☺ Coppertwig (talk) 19:43, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

Testing my signature: ☺ Coppertwig (talk) 20:33, 29 October 2008 (UTC)

William Green

Hello,

Why did you delete the information I posted on William Green - It's all correct.

Kind regards —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.217.170.15 (talk) 16:18, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

Hi. Thank you for your courteous note. I deleted some information from William Green (painter) because it was essentially word-for-word identical with information on a website (http://fp.armitt.plus.com/william_green.htm) so it may have been a copyright violation. It's fine to include facts from a website, if you write about those facts in your own words. Sentences or phrases can't be taken from a copyrighted source without permission. We generally assume websites are copyrighted. If you want to try to get permission from the copyright holder, see Misplaced Pages:Requesting copyright permission. Please don't re-insert the material again unless copyright permission has been obtained according to Misplaced Pages's requirements for such permission, and a note placed on the article talk page describing what was done (but don't post email addresses there). Please feel free to ask me any questions you may have about how to edit Misplaced Pages. ☺ Coppertwig (talk) 22:23, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

Battle of the Tigris

I am sorry I hurt your feelings, I ment IMPATIENT, and was not towards you, but only the 4 users that started this hole thing. Now could you let it go. Geez-o-weez! Thanks.--Ariobarza (talk) 21:12, 28 October 2008 (UTC)Ariobarza talk

You can strike out your comment at Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Battle of the Tigris using <s></s> and replace it with just "impatient". That would be much better in my opinion, although "impatient" is still a comment on other editors. My feelings were not hurt; I didn't think you were talking about me. I was following DefendEachOther. ☺ Coppertwig (talk) 21:20, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

Possibly unfree image

Hi, normally wp:pui would be best way for this image, since it seems permission only. But it is an image on Commons, it can't be listed here. I will list it there in the near future. Garion96 (talk) 23:15, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

OK, thanks. I'm not very familiar with images. I had been under the impression it was on Misplaced Pages, or maybe I forgot to even try to check whether it was. ☺ Coppertwig (talk) 23:24, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

User Arilang

Coppertwig, thank you for your note about User Arilang.

I am sorry if my comments on Arilang and his edits have become over-critical. My problem with User Arilang is that his edits are quite unashamedly partisan. That is, he has admitted POV, and he has openly admitted going in to make edits based on this POV. And he refuses to be stopped.

I appreciate that he is "enthusiastic", but this kind of editing on the part of an English speaker would not be tolerated. In the case of User Arilang, it is tolerated because he is Chinese and seems able to go in and find interesting material not accessible to an English speaker. However, I don't agree that he can make better edits simply because he is Chinese. I may not be a "scholar" as Arilang discovered, but I know enough about Chinese history to realise that Arilang's edits reflect the prejudices and biases of a strongly anti-Manchu strain of thought present in certain quarters of Chinese intellectual life. As Arilang says, this has become a major issue on Chinese-language forums and blogs. He is highlighting certain issues (with very little surrounding context) because they have been highlighted on the Internet. Moreover, much of what he writes is not necessarily balanced or well-sourced; it merely represents the assorted information that anyone can pick up from an Internet debate on a controversial topic. Unfortunately, viewpoints that are taken for granted on Chinese forums are not necessarily based on fact. They are often heavily based in emotion and ideology. The kind of comment found on the Chinese Internet can be just as racist and biased as anything found in the West.

Given the type of edit that Arilang is making, I am simply unable to stand aside while he goes in and makes POV edit after POV edit based on the emotions of Internet forums. Unfortunately it is impossible to tell him that he is POV because he is so convinced of the rightness of his cause that he will not admit to it. Since he refuses to be restrained, it becomes extremely frustrating to deal with his edits.

His attitude in the face of my attempts to rein in his blatant POV is telling. I am a "white man" who doesn't understand Classical written Chinese and therefore cannot understand Confucian thinking. That apparently disqualifies me from the right to judge Arilang and his POV. He started by calling me a "scholar", and the reason is pretty simple -- I knew things that he didn't expect a "white man" to know. When I admitted that I can't read Classical Chinese, he tried to use that to discredit my attempts to stop his POV edits.

If you look closely at Arilang's edits, you will find they consist mainly of two types:

• His own summary of what he believes the accepted facts are. This is largely based on a particular POV, namely that the Manchu period of history was a kind of dark ages for the Chinese.

• Cherry-picked quotations from primary or secondary sources. These are either left to stand alone and speak for themselves, without comment, or they are prefaced with comments that reflect Arilang's views and are not supported by the wider context in the sources from which he is quoting.

I am afraid that User Arilang is going to remain a POV editor until he realises what balanced editing is about. Anyone who started editing articles about "evolution" or "Christianity" with the degree of POV that marks Arilang's edits would be drummed out of Misplaced Pages very quickly.

Bathrobe (talk) 04:21, 2 November 2008 (UTC)

I don't disagree with what you say. The question is: what to do? Here's one idea. Maybe you have other ideas. I've asked Arilang to post suggestions on the article talk page for discussion before editing. Arilang has done this at least once, but I have the impression is not usually doing it. Here's my idea: whenever Arilang makes an edit to an article without discussing it specifically on the talk page first (other than something obviously appropriate, or just adding a reasonable number of "fact" tags etc.), we can revert the edit with edit summary like "please discuss on talk before editing". This can be even if there are good parts to the edit; the idea is that Arilang should put the text on the talk page and wait until people have had a chance to comment and fix up any problems, before editing. Do you think that's a good idea? If you agree with this plan and are willing to participate, then I'll ask administrators Moonriddengirl and EdJohnston whether they approve of us doing that. (They've interacted with Arilang.)

I think Arilang can contribute some useful material, but needs input from other editors to make the material acceptable for Misplaced Pages.

I think it's good to have people with POVs. They should not just be allowed to write their POV into the article; but they can help contribute to a NPOV article by pointing to problems where the article contradicts their POV or gives too little weight to their POV. They need to show restraint. Ideally, in my opinion, people with several different POVs will interact to form an article.

If there are problems with an editor, there are ways to respond to the problem without needing to violate WP:CIVIL. ☺Coppertwig(talk) 13:26, 2 November 2008 (UTC)

We can try this. Unfortunately I just don't have time to check whether his use of sources is fair or biased. He's posted material for comment at Qing. I've commented with specific criticisms, with a final comment again protesting at his POV.

One problem is that there are no qualified people ready and willing to tackle Arilang on his own ground. I notice that you've called him out on his links to pages using Chinese characters, etc. These are technicalities. But no one knowledgeable enough about Chinese history has appeared to challenge his constant slant. You may notice that he admits to being a refugee from Chinese-language Misplaced Pages, where he wasn't allowed to make the edits that he wanted. He complains quite bitterly about this, but has it occurred to you that they may have had good reasons for not allowing his edits?

Let me apologise; I've just noticed your guideline on not criticising other editors. I'm not sure what to do. Should it be moved to my talk page?

Bathrobe (talk) 03:53, 3 November 2008 (UTC)

Thank you for noticing my talk page guideline. To be honest, I hadn't noticed that it would apply in this case. I grant you an exception for the above comments. Further criticisms, if any are necessary, can be on your talk page, and we can move the whole conversation there if you prefer (but put a note here directing my attention there if you want me to start looking at your talk page).

I can recognize some things as not NPOV, such as using the word "sinister". I suppose there may be other things that someone would notice if they knew more Chinese history. Well, when someone comes along who knows more Chinese history, then they can comment. ☺Coppertwig(talk) 12:56, 3 November 2008 (UTC)

I asked Moonriddengirl and EdJohnston about this at User talk:EdJohnston#Arilang asking for help and User talk:Moonriddengirl#Arilang. I've had a lot of discussions with Arilang at User talk:Coppertwig#Arilang1234 asking for help. I'm notifying Arilang of this discussion. ☺Coppertwig(talk) 13:29, 3 November 2008 (UTC)

Thanks to both Coppertwig and Bathrobe's immense patience in trying to show me how to be a good editor in en.wikipedia. To tell the truth, I am still very confused about this NPOV or POV things. I know these are the rules of wiki, but exactly how it is applied and interpreted, I only have a little bit of idea. But none the less,I am willing to learn, and please give me a chance.Arilang1234 (talk) 13:51, 3 November 2008 (UTC)

On the question of NPOV and POV, well I did a fair number of edits on 2008 Chinese milk scandal, there wasn't any problems there(at least no one told me anything). My record on Revision History Statistics shows that:Ohconfucius 704, Arilang1234 152(hardly any was reverted.) And on the talk page of 2008 Chinese milk scandal, it can be seen that my co-operation with Ohconfucius was quite good, admittedly he helped me a lot in fixing grammar errors, or changing the structure of the sentence. Can someone make a comparison between Qing and 2008 Chinese milk scandal?Arilang1234 (talk) 14:28, 3 November 2008 (UTC)

Hello Arilang1234. I agree with the concerns of Bathrobe and Coppertwig. You could be heading for trouble regarding POV unless you edit more carefully. When we talked before, I mentioned that some articles on Chinese topics are in need of better sources. This is an area where you could do useful work where you would not risk imposing your own POV on articles. EdJohnston (talk) 14:37, 3 November 2008 (UTC)

@EdJohnston, thanks for your comments. Again let me emphasize my lack of understanding of Misplaced Pages rules such as NPOV and POV. When I was doing edits on 2008 Chinese milk scandal, I simply select news reports from CNN, Reuters, New York Times, Washington Posts, plus other main stream medias, I wrote the comments, did 'cite news', and press 'save page'. Every thing went OK, no one ever said anything about NPOV or POV, and most of my edits stayed, may be only one or two got reverted. When I was working on Qing, on which I try to add new sections onto it, new sections that in my opinion(POV?), that were needed there to make it more balance, more complete, and cover different perspectives. Qing dynasty, or Manchu Empire, lasted 300 years. And many scholars, including John King Fairbank, spend years after years of precious time, writing books after books on this subject. And here I am, as soon as I put in some comments on the brutality and backwardness of the Manchu, straight away I was labeled a Han chauvinism, Manchu basher, etc etc. Do you think it is fair? Now I am reading this book The Ching Imperial Household Department by Preston M. Torbert, on page 16-18, the author gave a detail description of how Jurchens(or Manchus) obtained land by warring, and turned war captives into agriculture slaves. I would like to add this information onto Qing, but then I am afraid others might label me as a 'Manchu basher' again. Well, whatever Manchus had done had been recorded on books, and as soon as I try to add this information into wikipedia encyclopedia, I would have POV problems. Hmm, I am wondering.Arilang1234 (talk) 22:27, 3 November 2008 (UTC)

Arilang, it's very good that you've given us the title, author, page number and what the book says, all in one place so that we know they all go together. I think you're learning how to do encyclopedia writing. Please keep on learning: there are many things to learn. ☺Coppertwig(talk) 00:27, 4 November 2008 (UTC)

"I put in some comments on the brutality and backwardness of the Manchu" is precisely the problem. When you edit it is very clear that you view the Manchus as "brutal and backward". Anyone reading your edits will immediately get the feeling "Wow! This article has really got it in for the Manchus!" If readers get that feeling you can be pretty sure that your POV (point of view) is showing.

To reflect the points that you want made in the article, using terms like "brutal and backward" is exactly the wrong way to go about it. If you want to present a more balanced view, you can

(1) include details of massacres, etc., with probable numbers killed; that will give readers a good idea what happened

(2) provide an objective view of the system that the Manchus introduced. For example, the Imperial Household Agency and its role is a gap in the article that you have tried to fill, which is a good thing (although you really should start out stating the year in which it was established -- after all, the administrative system did change over time). Mentioning the role of the boo-i is fine. Comments that blatantly imply that the boo-i system was far inferior to the traditional Chinese institution of slavery are not fine. Saying that the Qing emperor was a "dictator" is highly judgemental and introduces your own view very forcibly into the article (besides which you have no sources). What you could do is note that the Qing emperor had greater absolute power than emperors of past dynasties -- but this should be properly sourced -- no subjective rhetoric from Internet bulletin boards. (Just an aside here, if I understand correctly, all emperors in Chinese history theoretically had absolute power. The Qing were just more successful in imposing theirs.)

(3) include a description of the debate over the role of the Manchus in Chinese history. It's fine to say that some historians regard the Manchu period as a kind of "dark ages" for China -- as long as you can produce an authoritative academic source for this. And when you mention one side, you must always put in the opposing side, that is, the side of those arguing that the Manchus played a positive role in the history of China or dismissing the claims of the anti-Manchu thinkers. That way you get to put in anti-Manchu views (which should not be dismissed if they form a considerable tide of opinion) while maintaining the balance that is required on Misplaced Pages.

I hope that my suggestions may be of some use to you. As you can see, I am not opposed to your including additional information. I am merely concerned that your POV ("the Manchus were bad, bad, bad") is causing big problems in your edits.

Bathrobe (talk) 03:44, 4 November 2008 (UTC)

Thanks again Bathrobe for your help, I will try not to make my POV too obviously shown, if that is the right way of putting it. I have read the article you show me on contemporary Mongols' view on China. Well, I think this sentence says it all:

Translation:Sun Hongliang, the chief of Bureau of Politic of the Chinese Embassy to Mongolia once said: Instead of saying that Mongolians are in fear(of China), I would rather say they are in doubt, and in suspicion. Many surrounding nations, including Mongolia, have no idea China is heading in which direction.End of translation. Taiwan, South Korea, Japan, South East Asian countries, Australia, are all in doubt, some are in fear(Taiwan) of CHINA. Mongolia is no exception.

Bathrobe, on my user page, there were bits and pieces I collected on Matteo Ricci. One statement strikes me the hardest:

Bathrobe, Misplaced Pages is an excellent platform for the East to meet the West. I will try my best to stay NPOV.Arilang1234 (talk) 05:05, 4 November 2008 (UTC)

• Thanks for your advices Teacher Coppertwig, I think I am getting more NPOV and less POV. But I still need your help. Please have a look at Zhou Enlai, I have put some templates there, and I would like to have your comments.Arilang1234 (talk) 20:59, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

  Arilang, I'm sorry that I was talking about reverting your edits. I guess that wouldn't be a good way to help you! Thank you for still calling me Teacher and asking for my help after that. I looked at your last edit to Chinese Milk Scandal, , and it looks good. Thank you for using the cite news template. There may be some small problems with the edit, but nothing bad enough to revert it. You put it in the section "On the damage caused". I don't think your edit is really about damage caused; I think it's more about criticism of the WHO etc. But I think it's not too bad to put it in that section. It's still related to damage caused.

  In my comments on talk pages, I use italics (like this) for quotes. I think in Misplaced Pages articles, we're not supposed to use italics for quotes. The Manual of Style ((WP:MOS) says, "For quotations, use only quotation marks (for short quotations) or block quoting (for long ones), not italics." This is a small problem. If you have a small number of small problems in your edits, that's OK: other people will fix them later. Sometimes you have too many small problems in your edits, though.

  I will look at Zhou Enlai.

  You said, "To tell the truth, I am still very confused about this NPOV or POV things." I have a suggestion for you: I suggest that you read the Neutral point of view (NPOV) policy, if you didn't already. You may want to look at both the English Misplaced Pages policy, and the Chinese Misplaced Pages version of the same policy. Have you read the NPOV policy? ☺Coppertwig(talk) 00:04, 6 November 2008 (UTC)

Refactor?

Coppertwig, I've read your excellent comments here, and I agree with many - if not all - of your points. In order to make it easier to respond, I was tempted to refactor your comments into three (this being an arbitrary figure) subsections. I just wondered if this would be acceptable, and/or whether you'd prefer to do that yourself? Jakew (talk) 13:39, 2 November 2008 (UTC)

Greetings, Jake! Thanks for the compliment. OK, I'll do it. ☺Coppertwig(talk) 13:51, 2 November 2008 (UTC)

Well, you see, on another article I was editing, someone was complaining that people shouldn't be editing the article without having read the whole article first. So I figured it would be a good time to re-read the Circumcision article. And of course, being the type of person who would become a Wikipedian, I don't usually just read something without finding things to change. I was going to just quickly read the Circumcision article as the first item on my to-do list for yesterday; I pretty much just finished in time to log off. At least I restrained myself and didn't fiddle with things inside the quotes (as I think you've caught me doing in the past). ☺Coppertwig(talk) 14:08, 2 November 2008 (UTC)

Email

I've replied. Sorry about the long delay, everything is explained. Regards and apologies, Caulde 15:55, 2 November 2008 (UTC)

Revisit That Mucoid Plaque Article?

Greetings Coppertwig. Would you like to revisit that mucoid plaque article? Most recently, another fair-minded skeptic has made complaints on the talk page and edits to the article. Take some time to study the mucoid plaque talk page, my recent revision, as well as the edit history. I welcome you to come aboard and add your two cents. Heelop (talk) 17:30, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

Ancient Persian problems

You recently contributed to an AfD discussion on an article about ancient Persian history. I have been reviewing the contributions of the editors who have been involved in these and other related articles, and have found a considerable number of issues - bad writing, original research, lack of sourcing or citations, and POV problems. I have posted the results of my review at User:ChrisO/Ancient Persian problems (it's a work in progress, as I'm still going through the contributions). Please feel free to add to it as you see fit and leave any comments at User talk:ChrisO/Ancient Persian problems. I would be interested in any feedback that you might have. Thanks in advance. -- ChrisO (talk) 00:07, 6 November 2008 (UTC)

Dispute

This edit is probably the most major dispute we have, although I'm not sure why you're asking. (Link to full discussion.) I am not sure if it is a violation of conduct policy or guideline, but it seems to me that opposing an edit for the reason you give in your first sentence, which I reproduce in full below, is perplexing:

Coppertwig: "Oppose. I changed my mind, for the following reason. While I still think it would be a slight improvement to have this article named "Male circumcision" with "Circumcision" being a redirect to it if it remains a redirect, nevertheless I now realize that what would probably happen in practice is that it would not stably remain a redirect but a variety of people would keep coming along and trying to be helpful by changing the redirect into a disambiguation page or a short article, leading perhaps to edit wars and to instability in the way readers would be able to find this article, and being a disservice to the reader who, in the majority of cases I believe, would have to find the right link and do another page load before arriving at the desired information, and who in many cases might abandon the search before arriving at this article."

You opposed an edit apparently not because you thought it wasn't a better edit (indeed you expressed your opinion that it was), but because of what you thought "would probably happen in practice." Misplaced Pages is specifically set up to make what happens in practice correspond to consensus. A further change would have required this consensus. I believe this position seems like a failure to believe in the ability of WP:CONSENSUS policy to generate an appropriate organization of a topic. What you seem to be suggesting, is that the presentation and organization of the information that you agree are more appropriate than what is there, will cause a consensus to develop that actually supports a new presentation and organization. You then object on the grounds that the article "would not stably remain." Change (i.e., an edit) is not to be opposed on the mere basis that it is change. That seems akin to not having faith in the collective ability of Misplaced Pages editors to find the best organization through a series of small improvements (or blunders to be corrected), discussion and consensus. Perhaps that is seen as acceptable in Misplaced Pages, I don't know. It doesn't seem acceptable to me. It doesn't seem like it's primarily an editorial opinion arrived at through an objective and neutral view. I lost a lot of confidence in your judgement and ability with the above edit, as you argued so eloquently for the supporting view throughout the long, arduous discussions, gaining the respect of those who agreed with you, and possibly also that of those who did not. To seem to turn around and then distance yourself not from your arguments, not from your agreement with the preference of the editors who supported the move, but from the idea of an further, undiscussed edit that would have required a new consensus, is again completely perplexing to me. You do this without stating that you are opposed to that further edit, but again only on the grounds that stability is preferable -- a sort of status quo for the sake of the status quo. You seem to resist the idea of letting Misplaced Pages work according to its principles, in essence, inadvertently casting a shadow over a current disputed edit by invoking a larger shadow of some undesirable future edit. I do not understand the motivation for the continuation of your position after this objection has been presented to you. It seems to me to be in contradiction with your expressed interpretation of policy -- a logical flaw. I understand that you may view that your comment was in conformance with policy, but if so I'm forced to disagree, by my reading of it. Blackworm (talk) 03:59, 6 November 2008 (UTC)

Actually, you do state your opposition to the future, looming (in your apparent view), edit -- I overlooked that possibly because I believe that objection, apparently based on the user experience rather than encyclopedic validity and neutrality, would be invalid if the further edit were to be proposed, as WP:NPOV policy solidly outweighs concerns about the user experience (and whatever MoS or other guidelines you may feel inspire those concerns). Blackworm (talk) 05:10, 6 November 2008 (UTC)