Misplaced Pages talk:Mentorship: Difference between revisions

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	More difficult to track are the mentorships imposed by the community and Jimbo. One Jimbo-imposed mentorship is mentioned at ]. The community-imposed mentorships (some would be voluntary as well, but kind of agreed on the back of a community discussion) would probably be documented at the archives of ], ], ] and ]. Maybe other places as well. The ones I remember are one that Mercury took on (see ) and one involving Palestine Remembered (see ]). It would be good to document some of those, but more important is probably laying out what powers community-appointed involuntary mentors have, as these are appointed by a very different process to ArbCom-appointed mentors. ] (]) 14:13, 9 November 2008 (UTC)		More difficult to track are the mentorships imposed by the community and Jimbo. One Jimbo-imposed mentorship is mentioned at ]. The community-imposed mentorships (some would be voluntary as well, but kind of agreed on the back of a community discussion) would probably be documented at the archives of ], ], ] and ]. Maybe other places as well. The ones I remember are one that Mercury took on (see ) and one involving Palestine Remembered (see ]). It would be good to document some of those, but more important is probably laying out what powers community-appointed involuntary mentors have, as these are appointed by a very different process to ArbCom-appointed mentors. ] (]) 14:13, 9 November 2008 (UTC)
	:Oh, one more thing. The current link to "community" here (added by Mercury) is to ANI. Is that an appropriate venue for the community to impose involuntary mentorships? Would ] (the administrator's noticeboard) be a better venue than the incidents noticeboard? ] (]) 14:18, 9 November 2008 (UTC)		:Oh, one more thing. The current link to "community" here (added by Mercury) is to ANI. Is that an appropriate venue for the community to impose involuntary mentorships? Would ] (the administrator's noticeboard) be a better venue than the incidents noticeboard? ] (]) 14:18, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

			== Some mentorships listed at Misplaced Pages:Editing restrictions ==

			Some mentorships listed at ]. e.g. ''"PHG is restricted to only using widely-available English-language sources, unless working with an ArbCom-approved mentor."'' and ''"Papa Carlo will be mentored by John Vandenberg."'' The PHG one resulted from an ArbCom case. The Papa Carlo one resulted from a community discussion (though no link provided). I also re-discovered that ] used to exist as a separate page, but got (see also ]) and then to ]. Probations are now described and listed there (in theory). What seemed to have happened is that the probation list got out-of-date, and it was decided that the existing arbitration pages covered things enough, but then ] seemed to have taken on the role of documenting probations. Putting aside the question of whether ] may also be prone to falling out-of-date (though that documents community-imposed restrictions as well as ArbCom ones), the question here is whether the ArbCom-enforced probations should be documented here, or within the ArbCom pages? And whether the community-imposed mentorships are best documented at ]? Or is a separate page sustainable? My feeling is that the involuntary mentorships ''feel'' like editing restrictions (though in theory they are meant to be more flexible), while the voluntary ones don't need documenting (though a page explaining the difference is useful). Therefore I propose that community-imposed involuntary mentorships be documented at ], and that ArbCom-enforced mentorships be documented where needed (though a separate listing, rather than having to search through all the cases) would be helpful for anyone wanting to see what ArbCom-imposed mentorship involves on both sides. I'll drop a note to Thatcher, Jehochman and Newyorkbrad, who were all involved in the above. ] (]) 14:41, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

Revision as of 14:41, 9 November 2008

Involuntary mentorship

I don't think that the label "Involuntary mentorship" is quite right, although for some of those involved in one they may fee; that they are involuntary since it is usually offered as a "take this mentorship or it's likely you'll be banned" proposition. Unless someone can come up with a better label, I would suggest changing it to "Negotiated mentorship" or something similar.

I think that you also need to note that for both types of mentorship there needs to be a very clear understanding from the very beginning on what is expected during the mentorship and what the responsibilities of each individual are. I think that the main reason that Netoholic's mentorship failed is that everyone—ArbComm, each mentor, and Netoholic—had different ideas and expectations of how that mentorship was supposed to work and what the results were supposed to be. BlankVerse 08:53, 30 October 2005 (UTC)

Voluntary mentorship

I just posted this at Misplaced Pages talk:Editor review, but I have been trying to find places to refer another editor for assistance with some sort of guidance, mentoring, or coaching (call it what you will), suitable for someone who is relatively new. There does not seem to be any sort of equivalent to Editor Review or Admin Coaching for less experienced wikipedians. Editor review might be too harsh a process for someone trying to learn in the early stages, and Admin Coaching is far down the road. Whether or not "Admin Coaching" is intended to help editors become admins is beside the point; the name probably discourages editors who are not looking to be admins yet, but to be editors. If people could brainstorm for some sort of voluntary "wikicoaching" or "wikimentoring" program, it might help develop and assist a lot of new users. Agent 86 04:41, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

What's the difference?

So what's the difference between Mentorship and Adopt-a-user? --l E oN2323 21:45, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

I agree, it does sound the same. It could be easier if Menotrship was devoted to "involuntary mentorship" and Adopt-a-user was devoted to "voluntary mentorship". It certainly would make it sound more appealing to volunteers, as it wouldn't make them appear (at first glance) to have been forced into it by a violation. Just a random idea.

--HAL2008 20:53, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

Community

The community should be able to place a user into mentorship, as an example, I'm about to unblock a user if they agree to mentorship. I've added this in here. Mercury 12:20, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

Is there any obligation for the Mentor to disclose?

Is there any obligation for the Mentor to disclose the relationship when advocating? If not there should be. I was involved in an awkward situation this morning in which I mistook a mentor for a sympathizer of an editor I believe to be behaving inappropriately. A trip to ANI could have been avoided if the relationship had been disclosed by the Mentor when acting as advocate. --Pleasantville (talk) 19:41, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

I don't get it. Mentoring is (usually) an informal thing- we have no need to be aware of mentorships or treat anyone any differently because of them. Even when someone is forced into being mentored, this means they need to change their own behavior accordingly. The rest of us don't particularly need to care about it. Friday (talk) 19:43, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

Merge

I removed the merge template that's been on the page since last July, evidently the merge didn't go forward. I think the problem probably was due to the dual nature of this page. While "voluntary mentorship" obviously dovetails with Misplaced Pages:Adopt-a-User, I don't think the involuntary type fits there at all. Perhaps the voluntary part of this page should be removed and hatnote disambiguated to Adopt-a-User, leaving just the involuntary portion- at which point this page should probably be renamed something like WP:Editing moderation or some such. —Ashanda (talk) 07:12, 17 May 2008 (UTC)

Harassment of mentors

I was placed under mentorship in August 2007 - readers of this might be astonished by the venom released by an editor seeking (perhaps demanding?) the details of a fairly blatant Conflict of Interest, but there we go. Lifelong compulsory mentorship - I'm not complaining.

In essence mentorship works extremely well - I've never been asked to stop doing anything (that I can think of?) and I'm empowered to ignore all complaints raised against me, because of course they should, naturally, go to my mentor.

Unfortunately, harassment of me has been replaced by harassment of my mentors. The first one was indef-blocked (perhaps understandably) as a sock-puppet - the following three were severely harrassed on and off-wiki. Things deteriorated severely after that and I'm now able to abide by the conditions imposed only by refusing to say who is mentoring me. PR 12:49, 22 September 2008 (UTC)

Issues arising from ArbCom sanctioned mentorship of Privatemusings

Copied from Misplaced Pages talk:Requests for comment/Privatemusings, based on Lar's response here.

The original RfArb clarification thread setting up this mentorship is here. The previous history of Privatemusings at arbitration can be seen here.

"I suggest some lessons be learnt from this. Does having three mentors work? Should there be a code of conduct for mentors? Is it acceptable for mentors to resign and then comment extensively at and endorse an RfC on the former mentoree? How much influence should a mentor have? I'm not necessarily disagreeing with what people might answer to these questions, but I think the whole process of mentorship needs to be looked at, including the advantages and disadvantages of informal and formal mentorships. In this case, the mentorship arose from a RfArb - two of the mentors explicitly stated here that they had been appointed by ArbCom - whether that was intended to add weight to their comments or make the history clearer, I don't know, but it may have the effect of adding weight to the comments of the mentors. My point is that at times the mentors may have appeared to be acting as proxies for ArbCom (monitoring and reviewing Privatemusings), rather than as mentors." Carcharoth (talk) 21:25, 8 November 2008 (UTC)

Messages left for User:Lar, User:Durova, User:Jayvdb, User:FT2 (to keep the arbitration committee in the loop) and User:Privatemusings. Durova and Lar and FT2 have all left views at the RfC, while Jayvdb's views seem to be expressed here. I've placed this note here at the talk page of Misplaced Pages:Mentorship for the record, but, given the comments about not picking at scabs and allowing wounds to heal, I suggest that it might be an idea to lead by example and allow this particular wound to heal. In other words, don't comment extensively, but make brief comments (or keep the comments general rather than specific) and then move on, indicating, if necessary, any desire to revisit the issues in a month or so. Carcharoth (talk) 13:14, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

Previous mentorships and consistent use of this page

I've been trying to work out exactly what this page is for. It is linked under "remedies" in the dispute resolution template, but I get the impression that it has fallen into disuse. It was used to list people under involuntary mentorship, but that part doesn't seem to have been done recently. Maybe this page should be used more for that again? This page also seems to clearly lay out what the difference is between voluntary and involuntary mentorship. It helps if arbitration cases that involve enforced mentorship explicitly link to this page, as some people may confuse voluntary and involuntary mentorship, not realising that mentors appointed by the Arbitration Committee have a lot of enforcement power (according to this page). The cases that link to this page are somewhere in this list. I suspect there are other cases where mentorship was enforced that are not linked to here, though. So I searched through Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Completed requests and found the following cases where mentorships ended up in the final decision (one, the Everyking2 case, did not have "mentor" in the description at 'completed requests', so possibly other cases involved mentorship that are not documented here):

Possibly someone might like to document these Arbcom-enforced mentorships to see how successful they were or not, and if any lessons can be or were learned. One page I did find, which was interesting, was Misplaced Pages:Mentorship Committee, which I'd never heard of before. I can understand why it was marked historical, but I will link to it anyway as part of the history and as a way for people to find further examples of mentorships that may or may not have worked. Carcharoth (talk) 14:07, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

Mentorships imposed by Jimbo or the community

More difficult to track are the mentorships imposed by the community and Jimbo. One Jimbo-imposed mentorship is mentioned at Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/RickK vs. Guanaco. The community-imposed mentorships (some would be voluntary as well, but kind of agreed on the back of a community discussion) would probably be documented at the archives of WP:CSN, WP:MENTCOM, WP:AN and WP:ANI. Maybe other places as well. The ones I remember are one that Mercury took on (see here) and one involving Palestine Remembered (see here). It would be good to document some of those, but more important is probably laying out what powers community-appointed involuntary mentors have, as these are appointed by a very different process to ArbCom-appointed mentors. Carcharoth (talk) 14:13, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

Oh, one more thing. The current link to "community" here (added by Mercury) is to ANI. Is that an appropriate venue for the community to impose involuntary mentorships? Would WP:AN (the administrator's noticeboard) be a better venue than the incidents noticeboard? Carcharoth (talk) 14:18, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

Some mentorships listed at Misplaced Pages:Editing restrictions

Some mentorships listed at Misplaced Pages:Editing restrictions. e.g. "PHG is restricted to only using widely-available English-language sources, unless working with an ArbCom-approved mentor." and "Papa Carlo will be mentored by John Vandenberg." The PHG one resulted from an ArbCom case. The Papa Carlo one resulted from a community discussion (though no link provided). I also re-discovered that ] used to exist as a separate page, but got removed after discussion with ArbCom (see also this talk page discussion) and then redirected four months later to Misplaced Pages:Editing restrictions. Probations are now described and listed there (in theory). What seemed to have happened is that the probation list got out-of-date, and it was decided that the existing arbitration pages covered things enough, but then Misplaced Pages:Editing restrictions seemed to have taken on the role of documenting probations. Putting aside the question of whether Misplaced Pages:Editing restrictions may also be prone to falling out-of-date (though that documents community-imposed restrictions as well as ArbCom ones), the question here is whether the ArbCom-enforced probations should be documented here, or within the ArbCom pages? And whether the community-imposed mentorships are best documented at Misplaced Pages:Editing restrictions? Or is a separate page sustainable? My feeling is that the involuntary mentorships feel like editing restrictions (though in theory they are meant to be more flexible), while the voluntary ones don't need documenting (though a page explaining the difference is useful). Therefore I propose that community-imposed involuntary mentorships be documented at Misplaced Pages:Editing restrictions, and that ArbCom-enforced mentorships be documented where needed (though a separate listing, rather than having to search through all the cases) would be helpful for anyone wanting to see what ArbCom-imposed mentorship involves on both sides. I'll drop a note to Thatcher, Jehochman and Newyorkbrad, who were all involved in the above. Carcharoth (talk) 14:41, 9 November 2008 (UTC)