Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 05:37, 17 November 2008

Non-countries listed

Some of the entries in this list, such as Saint Barthélemy (a.k.a St. Bart's), are not actually countries, but are territories of another country. However, the country flag shown in that example is France's flag, the country it is a territory of. So, should non-countries be listed at all? Or is it OK because it points to the main country's flag, as opposed to the local flag (like the Flag of Saint Barthélemy)? In other words, should we cut this down to a list of existing countries and nothing else? Based on the article's title and introduction that would seem to be what the list should be. -- HiEv 14:48, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

KOSOVO is not a country! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.200.219.28 (talk) 23:48, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

Its independence has been recognized. International reaction to the 2008 Kosovo declaration of independence seems to have plenty of detail and references. Given the fact that your IP address comes from "Telekom Srbija", I can see why you're saying that. —LOL /_C 02:09, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

Western Sahara case

Western Sahara isn't a country. It's a non self-governing territory actually administrated by the kingdom of Morocco. There is no republic in Western Sahara. SADR which is the auto-proclamed republic of the Polisario front has nothing to do with Western Sahara. SADR is taking place in Tindouf camps south Algeria far from Western Sahara. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Moroccansahraoui (talk • contribs) 11:51, 4 September 2008 (UTC)

Oh boy See list of countries. —Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 20:19, 4 September 2008 (UTC)

Oh dad you have some missing points about Western Sahara issue. I believe it's really hard to know all the aspects of this cold war complex issue at the 20'. So dad, there is so much to know about the reality of the ground and the position of the UN based on the last report of the General Assembly on Western Sahara issue. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Moroccansahraoui (talk • contribs) 11:58, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

England, Scotland, Wales & Northern Ireland?

I don't wanna peeve anybody off, but those aren't independant countries. GoodDay (talk) 18:56, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

I agree. The terminology of the British government calls them countries but that doesn't make them countries. They are not included in list of countries nor satisfy the criteria mentioned in country. I would recommend their removal.Yman88 (talk) 19:04, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

If it's decided to keep the dependant countries listed in this article? Then the article will have to be divided into 2 sections: Section for independants, section for dependants. GoodDay (talk) 19:07, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

All of the others that are not independent countries are autonomous regions and their inclusion could be debated as warranted. However the constituent parts of the UK are not; they are ruled by a central government from London. Thus just removing them for the moment would suffice. Changing this into only independent flags is a much bigger and more complicated deal.Yman88 (talk) 19:12, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

I'd suggest waiting, to see what others opinons are. If ya wish to delete them? no prob. GoodDay (talk) 19:14, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

If you believe they should be removed because they are not automonous then I'm afraid[REDACTED] disagrees with you, as shown in the article List of autonomous areas by country. Titch Tucker (talk) 19:19, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

Is it alright to re-arrange the content? Independant & Dependant. GoodDay (talk) 19:23, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

I'd doubt their inclusion on that list. At the very least England needs to be removed. It appears on no list.Yman88 (talk) 19:26, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

Agree with Yman. This article isn't about "List of flags of autonomous areas by country" it's about national flags - the Basque Country and Catalonia have far more autonomy than Northern Ireland but the latter does not meet the definition of country in that particular article. We should remove them all and replace with a single United Kingdom flag. Valenciano (talk) 19:28, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

I've deleted 'England, Wales, Northern Ireland & Scotland', to see how everyone views it. Feel free to restore them, if it's premature of me. GoodDay (talk) 19:31, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

Wowsers, that was quick. GoodDay (talk) 19:33, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

(deindent) User:GoodDay, I'd support that. The lead also needs to be more explicit in what constitutes "a country" otherwise this article will become a minefield for every POV pusher that wants their own "nation" included. A separate article on "List of flags of autonomous areas by country" might be a good idea if properly defined. Valenciano (talk) 19:38, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

Once again, if you wish to remove them because this article is about "national flags" let me point out to you the article Bearer of the National Flag of Scotland.Titch Tucker (talk) 19:40, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

A title of an article indicates nothing. I'd suggest their removal from this article.Yman88 (talk) 19:41, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

I would suggest otherwise for the reasons already given Titch Tucker (talk) 19:45, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

I've had trouble in the past on the Scotland article (concerning it's map & its status as a nation). It's best I move on, good luck guys/gals. GoodDay (talk) 19:44, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

TitchTucker, no, I want to redefine the article to specify precisely what constitutes national flags to avoid this article becoming yet another geopolitical minefield. Recognition as an independent country by a multinational organisation would be a good start to avoid Scotland / Catalonia / South Ossetia / Northern Cyprus style disputes. Valenciano (talk) 19:46, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

The first argument to delete them was that they are not automonous, I proved (apart from England) they were. The second argument was because they did not have national flags, I proved they did. The third argument is because they are not independent. If the article was named List of flags by independent country I would agree to delete them, but it's not. Titch Tucker (talk) 19:53, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

If that solves the issue then I've no problem with any renaming of the article. I would suggest splitting into separate articles "List of flags by independent country" (or whatever) and "List of flags by autonomous region." Those would need to be clearly defined to avoid issues. Suitable definitions would need to be devised to deal with places like semi-recognised places like South Ossetia and Northern Cyprus as well as 'substantial autonomy but not technically independent' places like Faroe Islands and Greenland. Valenciano (talk) 20:00, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

I have another suggestion. Why don't we change the article name to List of National flags by country, or just List of National flags. Titch Tucker (talk) 20:06, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

We have to be careful folks. England, Scotland, Northern Ireland & Wales are not equals of the United Kingdom. Therefore they can't be presented as such. GoodDay (talk) 20:09, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

They are not equal or unequal. England, Scotland, Northern Ireland, and Wales are what they are. Titch Tucker (talk) 20:13, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

Not equal to the UK. GoodDay (talk) 20:16, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

England or Scotland are plainly not the same as the UK. One is an official, legally recognised state, the others are regional sub-units. We need one article for states with a reasonable degree of legal recognition (I'm thinking UN level) and another for officially recognised sub-units. Valenciano (talk) 20:18, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

I agree.Yman88 (talk) 20:21, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

(Edit conflict)I of course am not saying they are the same as the UK. What I do say is that we have to recognise the fact they have national flags, which is why I suggested changing the article name to List of National flags. Titch Tucker (talk) 20:23, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

Can I just point out that the sub units of the UK do not appear in either Gallery of sovereign-state flags nor Gallery of dependent territory flags. If they don't appear in a gallery why should they appear in a list?Yman88 (talk) 20:27, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

Well, the first is because they are not sovereign states, though they are countries. The second is because they are not dependent territories. Does anyone have an opinion of my suggestion on changing the article name? Titch Tucker (talk) 20:32, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

I am against your move. E,S, NI and Wales are the only "countries" in this list to not appear in either gallery. Can you explain why? Perhaps because calling them countries is just a localised terminology not used internationally? That is my belief.There is no other explanation.

Edit: The UK sub part flags appear in this gallery: http://commons.wikimedia.org/Flags_of_formerly_independent_states . It explains a lot.Yman88 (talk) 20:36, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

When I go and see the Scotland international football team playing in the FIFA world cup and they play our national anthem and raise our national flag I am watching a country playing football. Titch Tucker (talk) 20:42, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

FIFA recognizes them as nations not necessarily countries. Sporting bodies do not indicate political situations in a country. Your arguments are sounding more and more like nationalist POV. While there's nothing wrong with that; Misplaced Pages is required to have a NPOV.Yman88 (talk) 20:48, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

We were having an interesting conversation till you accused me without any basis of having a nationalist POV. I shall leave you to do with the article as you wish. Titch Tucker (talk) 20:57, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

FIFA's opinion on this issue is practically worthless. Israel played in the Oceania zone in the 1986 World Cup and in the European zone in recent World Cups yet geographically everyone recognises that it's in the Middle East. Faroe Islands and Palestine are two other examples of why we can't take FIFA as an authority on this matter. Anyway why does the opinion of FIFA count for more than the International Olympic Committee which does not recognise Scotland as an independent competitor? We need neutral, verifiable facts here to avoid bias, POV and the hijacking of this article by POV pushing nationalist editors. Valenciano (talk) 21:02, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

It's always nice to have a civilised conversation. As for who is hijacking the article, it seems to me it is you and others who have come to this article to change it to your POV. Like I said, I'll leave it to you and take my "nationalist POV" with me. Titch Tucker (talk) 21:09, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

Since I've opened this discussion, I feel it's my place to comment (yet again). Let's stop this Nationlist PoV accusations, folks. Remember concentrate on the content; not the contributor. Keep your cool, folks. GoodDay (talk) 21:15, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

I never accused Titch or anyone of nationalist POV so I've no idea why he/she is flying off the handle. What I'm saying is that the only stable basis for articles would be to have those with a fair degree of legal recognition - UN or whatever, that article could have a subsection for partially recognised countries i.e. South Ossetia, TRNC etc - all verifiable and NPOV. See this article for a clear example of what could happen if we accept any other definition. Valenciano (talk) 21:27, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

Oh heck, may aswell rejoin the discussion. Tich & Yman have chosen to depart the article. Anyways, this article should be re-organized (as I mentioned above). GoodDay (talk) 21:33, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

Northern Ireland

The article name is "List of flags by country". That doesn't specify that each country in the list should be an independent country, or any specific type of country. The flag I replaced is the flag of the United Kingdom. The article specified Northern Ireland. Northern Ireland's specific flag is the flag of Northern Ireland. I have included both flags in the article now as a compromise until the issue is sorted. --Setanta 14:25, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

• See Flag of Northern Ireland. The UB is not currently the official flag of NI. Black Kite 14:40, 16 November 2008 (UTC)
  • The St George's Cross is not currently the "official" flag of England. Yet it is recognised as identifying England as distinct from the other countries within the UK. Ditto for the flag of Northern Ireland. --Setanta 05:27, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

• The only method of "compromise" that I can see is GoodDay's - to remove Eng/Sco/Wal/NI and replace with UK. Black Kite 14:41, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

If the flags of England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland are removed from this article then the article name should be changed to List of flags by independent country, or alternatively, changed to List of national flags, which would have to include the aforementioned countries. We have to be careful we don't start a precedent, before we know it they will also be removed from articles such as Flags of Europe and every other flag article, then the reader will hardly know that these national flags even exist. Titch Tucker (talk) 16:30, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

I agree, actually. The existence of a "compromise" idea doesn't mean that we should throw the baby out with the bathwater, more that we should ensure that existing entries are correct, which is the problem with including the Ulster Banner. Black Kite 16:33, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

Divide the article into 2 sections. Top section for indendpendts & bottom section for dependants. England/Scotland/Northern Ireland/Wales must not be in the same section with United Kingdom. GoodDay (talk) 16:37, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

If dividing the article into two sections solves the problem then I would agree to that. Titch Tucker (talk) 16:46, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

If it doesn't work? The only other option is to delete England/Wales/Northern Ireland/Scotland. GoodDay (talk) 17:00, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

If they are eventually removed then the article name will have to change. Another article named National flags can be created which will include the country flags mentioned, and any others on this list which are not fully independent. Titch Tucker (talk) 17:08, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

It would be alot easier, just to boot'em out. Another option would be to delete the article. GoodDay (talk) 17:12, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

⬅ OPPOSE One known contentious editor using this page to pursue yet again a specific POV does not warrant any change. --Snowded TALK 17:59, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

Then we'll adopt the sections proposal. GoodDay (talk) 18:03, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

No, leave it as it is, its consistent with the definition of countries used elsewhere in Misplaced Pages. There is no need to make such changes just because one contentious editor is playing games, don;t feed Trolls --Snowded TALK 18:18, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

Considering the factual error in the article as it currently stands, I have added some tags to it. The accuracy tag I added because the Union Jack is not the flag of Northern Ireland. The POV tag because I have been accused of POV and therefore it's possible to conclude that there may be an opposing POV (ie: the status quo). The fact tag indicates the problematic, or erroneous, entry in the article. I'd appreciate these tags being left until each of the issues are sorted. --Setanta 05:37, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

Divide into sections

Anybody know how to do this? Have an Independant & Dependant sections? That way we won't have to alter the article's name. GoodDay (talk) 17:14, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

• Oppose for reasons stated above
• Oppose I have explained my reasons above. Changed my mind over the compromise. A country is a country, full stop. Titch Tucker (talk) 18:51, 16 November 2008 (UTC)
• Support, as it would make the article less confusing to less familiar readers. GoodDay (talk) 18:26, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

I would support the change but might I suggest something slightly different? Instead of splitting the article do something like they do in other articles. Make the sovereign states bold and dependencies/autonomous regions which are called countries italic or standard in typeface, with an explanation up the top. It would however have to be determined whether the UK sub parts would meet the criteria of dependency etc.Yman88 (talk) 18:34, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

Hmmm; I like it. GoodDay (talk) 18:35, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

Look this is a hardy perennial on Misplaced Pages. The meaning of country is not the same as nation state - this has been established time and time again in many disputes on many pages. Countries which linked on the header makes this very clear. This page is a list of flags by country, the meaning of country being established elsewhere. The word dependency is also highly contentious, and you end up having to deal with countries with or without different degrees of self-government and historical existence. The last thing this page needs is to become yet another battle ground for a series of complex and contentious issues. If people really want to persue this then it will be be necessary to post notices on the various country pages involved as I doubt many editors watch it specifically. Do we really want that? --Snowded TALK 18:44, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

I still like Yman88's idea (which is better then mine, darn-it). GoodDay (talk) 18:50, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

Don't worry GoodDay I just copied it from the List of countries article. The UK cc's aren't in that list and I'm not understanding why this is such a big issue. I agree that we do not need a battleground. But we certainly don't need a misleading article either.Yman88 (talk) 18:53, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

I'm a little surprised by the opposition, too. However, whatever is decided (status quo or change), we'll all have to abide by it. GoodDay (talk) 18:58, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

I feel a bit reticent to say this GD, because since I joined wiki we have gotten along well, and I'm sure that will continue, but when you made the statement "It would be a lot easier just to bootem out. Another option would be to delete the article" it put me off the compromise. It kind of suggested to me that your final aim was indeed to boot them out Titch Tucker (talk) 19:17, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

I originally thought it would be best to delete Scotland/Northern Ireland/England/Wales. But sections or bolding proposals appeared better. I was considering AfDing the article too - but that's apparently non-optional. My main concern is will it confuse the less familiar readers. I've no personal stake in it. GoodDay (talk) 19:24, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

⬅ At the moment we have a useful and non-contentious article. It lists the flags of countries. It confirms with the[REDACTED] definition of a country (the complications of which are discussed on a linked article. The status of Wales, Scotland etc as countries has been established by multiple citations (as GoodDay knows as well as anyone). Countries are countries, there is no issue of status as no claim is made here to sovereign status. If a different status is introduced here then it will have to be explained, that explanation will not be easy to achieve without considerable contention and debate. I remain astounded that GoodDay with his experience of this issue deleted the four UK countries. An alternative suggestion if people are really concerned then the simplest suggestion is to clearly link each name to its country page. The lede's in each case present their status. --Snowded TALK 19:42, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

I'll abide by whatever is decided here. PS: FWIW, List of countries seems to disagree with Wiki definition of country. GoodDay (talk) 19:45, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

Well go and change it then GoodDay, don't compound the error, but as you well know this one goes the round from time to time. I'd just leave it (and this) alone. --Snowded TALK 20:17, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

I've asked Administrator Black Kite, to check into that article. Feel free to endorse that request. GoodDay (talk) 20:19, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

Move under the UK

Howabout this folks? EXAMPE:

• United Kingdom
  
  • England
    
  • Northern Ireland
    
  • Scotland
    
  • Wales
    

GoodDay (talk) 01:17, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

That's very similar to Template:Flags of Europe. Seems alright to me. Titch Tucker (talk) 01:23, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

This way, we get to keep them in the article & show their relationship to the UK. GoodDay (talk) 01:27, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

Its a list of flags by country and arranged alphabetically. As I have said several times lets keep this simple. If you really want this discussion (and I really cannot see any reason for it) then notifications will have to be placed on the country pages concerned. --Snowded TALK 03:23, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

The entry for Northern Ireland doesn't have a flag icon beside it. I would suggest including the flag of Northern Ireland and embolding "United Kingdom", thus:

• United Kingdom
  
  • England
    
  • Northern Ireland
    
  • Scotland
    
  • Wales
    

That keeps the article consistent. --Setanta 05:32, 17 November 2008 (UTC)