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Revision as of 00:53, 18 November 2008

This is a mediation talk page for Chiropractic.

Ground rules

• Assume good faith until your eyes bleed.
• Focus on content; avoid "you" statements in favor of "I".
• To avoid mediation creep, please do not open new topics while a discussion is on-going.

Opening statements

Please give a brief (under 200 words) statement of what your concerns are for the article and what you would like to achieve through mediation. Also, please give me a top 5 wishlist - if you could change any 5 (specific) things about the article content right now, what would they be? Shell 18:12, 6 November 2008 (UTC)

Statement by User:Eubulides

I'd like Chiropractic to become a wp:Featured article. It's already at the quality level of a wp:Good article; the main thing holding it back from formal good-article status has been ongoing edit wars over tags and content. Ideally Chiropractic should go through wp:Peer review in preparation for featured-article status.

All this will take some work. My greatest current concern for the article is that distractions over what should be easily-resolvable issues, such as whether spinal manipulation sources are directly relevant to the article, have prevented making further improvements to the article. We have wasted a large amount of time in circular discussions. My hope is that mediation will help avoid similar time-wasting in the future.

Top-5 wishlist:

1. Featured-article (or at least good-article) status.
2. Treatment techniques is by far the weakest section; it's just a list of techniques without much organization or motivation. It should be rewritten give a novice a better feeling for what chiropractors actually do.
3. The article's organization can be improved. Scope of practice and Education, licensing, and regulation should be combined into a single section, since both sections are about the legal boundaries and enforcement mechanisms. Utilization, satisfaction rates, and third party coverage is a dog's-breakfast section; part of it (credibility and insurance) belongs in the single section described above, and the rest of it belongs in a slimmed down section on utilization and popularity. Vaccination is an odd-man-out section right now; its material also belongs in the merged section, I think, next to the coverage of credibility.
4. The article needs more images.
5. Some of the sections are bloated and could use some trimming, with material moved into subarticles. They include the combined section mentioned above, Philosophy, and Evidence basis.

Eubulides (talk) 20:31, 6 November 2008 (UTC)

Statement by User:DigitalC

I too would like to see Chiropractic reach FA status, although currently there are many obstacles in that path. Chief among those are violations of WP's core policies, including NPOV and OR. I would like to see the evidence basis section trimmed, as there is currently too much weight given to that section. I think the best way to go about this is to go back to general sources on Chiropractic, and look at how much weight they give to such topics - we should be presenting the topic as it is presented in reliable sources. Through mediation I would like to see a resolution of the OR violations, without dismissal of uninvolved editors' opinions. I would like to see the removal of any source that does not explicitly mention the topic of the article, which is Chiropractic - for we cannot assume an authors intentions, and therefore cannot determine ourselves if something is directly related or not unless it mentions the topic.DigitalC (talk) 23:33, 6 November 2008 (UTC)

Statement by User:ScienceApologist

I think that consensus is being referred to way to often and there is not enough consideration of WP:CCC and WP:CON#Exceptions. There is no way that "consensus" can override WP:V, WP:RS, WP:NPOV, etc. User:QuackGuru has patiently explained rationale. The response, to me, seems to be "I disagree, but I'm going to be silent as to why." This kind of non-communication must stop.

ScienceApologist (talk) 01:04, 7 November 2008 (UTC)

Statement by User:Levine2112

My major concern with the article should be no surprise. I think the Evidence basis section suffers from rampant WP:NOR violations. This section is ostensibly about the evidence basis of chiropractic, however, for some sources, we are using research which concludes nothing specifically about chiropractic, but rather about spinal manipulation in general. (Example 1, Example 2) By us using such research as the evidence basis of chiropractic constitutes original research because we are making an original application of the research as evidence of chiropractic; an application not necessarily intended by the research author(s).

I would like the article:

1. to reach GA status, but feel it is impossible with such rampant WP:NOR violations in place.
2. to become more stable.
3. to have less violations of WP:OWN.
4. to conform more with WP:NPOV. Right now it too often presents the critical POV as the major POV and often times neglects the neutral and supportive POVs.
5. to deal less with minor tangential issues such as Vaccination which would be better dealt with on the tangential article rather than Chiropractic.

-- Levine2112 19:10, 7 November 2008 (UTC)

Statement by User:Y

The OR Tag

Since this seems to be the elephant in the room at the moment, lets talk about the OR tag. For editors who believe the OR tag needs to stay on the section, what are your specific reasons for the tag? Please don't offer a summary of anyone's opinion other than your own. Be very specific and offer a suggested compromise that you would accept to resolve the problem. If anyone makes a general statement like "SM isn't Chiro SM" or "But the studies don't say Chiro specifically" or "SM is related so this stuff is ok" I will immediately remove your statement and ask you to rewrite. Shell 04:33, 8 November 2008 (UTC)

Since it looks like there may be a number of specific issues we need to go over, I've changed the format a bit (per Fylsee's suggestion) so we can discuss each one on its own merits. I'd like to ask that we hold off on adding any additional sections for the time being and see what we can do to reach a compromise on these three statements. Shell 21:57, 8 November 2008 (UTC)

Since Levine2112 is proposing solutions below involving total removal and movement of material to the Spinal manipulation article, I suggest that such "solutions" be dealt with in a separate section/RfC, since it is a whole different matter. There is disagreement about whether the chiropractic article should even have an "effectiveness" section, and that matter shouldn't be part of this discussion. Make it a separate RfC. In fact, a solution to that question could make this discussion totally superfluous.

This mediation is about improving the chiropractic article by tweaking and refining content, and this subsection is about the OR tag. How can we tweak/refine the content to make it better suited, without any potential OR issues? Many of us feel there is no OR issue, and others do, but removal isn't the solution. Instead let's fix it. -- Fyslee / talk 21:58, 8 November 2008 (UTC)

@ Fyslee: If you don't agree with Levine's suggestion, you're welcome to post your own review of the situation and an alternate suggestion.

@ Levine: Stating that something should be removed from the article entirely isn't really suggesting a compromise, so perhaps you can review the situation again and find an alternative that you would accept. Shell 22:40, 8 November 2008 (UTC)

I think the format change of this discussion is a good one. Thanks, Fyslee. And I like the suggestion about just starting out with these first three and see how it goes from there. Too much at once could be overwhelming. Thanks, Shell.

At this time, I am unable to think of another suggested compromise which will eliminate the WP:NOR violation other than removing the offending passages from this article where they are being used out of the context of their sources. I do think these passages still have encyclopedic merit and that is why my suggested compromise is to retain these passages by moving them to an article which more appropriately suits them contextually. This is a compromise from just deleting these passages wholesale. That said, I am always open to considering any and all other suggestions; I just can't think of one at this time which will reconcile the NOR violation. -- Levine2112 02:01, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

Well then, we could at the least copy this to the Spinal manipulation article as an edit that is independent of these proceedings. As for the matters at hand, we'll still need to discuss them. -- Fyslee / talk 07:20, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

Low Back Pain section of Chiropractic#Effectiveness

Okay, let's take this one sentence and one source at a time starting with the Low Back Pain section of Chiropractic#Effectiveness.

Sentence 1

There is continuing conflict of opinion on the efficacy of SMT for nonspecific (i.e., unknown cause) low back pain; methods for formulating treatment guidelines differ significantly between countries, casting some doubt on the guidelines' reliability.

• Source: Inconsistent Grading of Evidence Across Countries: A Review of Low Back Pain Guidelines, Murphy et al.
• OR issue(s): While the source does support the statement given, the statement itself is not about the subject of the article (Chiropractic) or more important, not about the subject of the article subsection (The evidence basis of the efficacy of Chiropractic for low back pain). The conclusion which we are summarizing in the article is about evidence basis of the efficacy of Spinal manipulation in general for low back pain and says nothing about chiropractic specifically. When we make the leap and assume that Murphy's conclusions can be applied to discuss the efficacy of chiropractic for low back pain (LBP), we are using the source in a manner which was not intended by the author. So even though our summary is faithful to the source, using it to discuss the efficacy of Chiropractic is to use the source out of context. From WP:OR: Take care, however, not to go beyond what is expressed in the sources or to use them in ways inconsistent with the intent of the source, such as using material out of context.
• Suggested compromise: As this is a seemingly well summarized statement from a reliable source, we should simply move it from Chiropractic#Effectiveness to the corresponding section in Spinal manipulation where it can exist in proper context.

-- Levine2112 21:31, 8 November 2008 (UTC)

• It may not say anything about the profession of chiropractic specifically and directly (it does include chiropractic SM...), but it does say something about "spinal manipulation" specifically and directly, and SM is definitely related to chiropractic. That was covered in the RfC. Therefore I see no specific OR issue here. It is thus related to chiropractic.

• It is conceivable that some specific SM research, when applied in some particular and very special manner, would not be applicable at all to chiropractic, but we are not attempting to cross that bridge here, so there is still no problem. If that situation arrives here, we can deal with it then. Right now we are dealing with generalities and thus the current situation doesn't involve OR.

• Considering that we lack sources that contradict the findings of Murphy, then they are fair game, especially since they included chiropractic spinal manipulation. If we had other sources, then we could include them to round out the picture, since the truth of the matter may lie somewhere in between.

• The danger of OR is ever present and denying that OR is an issue now doesn't mean that it might not be a legitimate concern under the right circumstances in the future, but it's not an issue now.

-- Fyslee / talk 07:51, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

• This is the line of reasoning which Shell specifically prohibited us from making. "SM is related so this stuff is ok". Further, this is about research and the RfC did not cover whether or not general spinal manipulation research can be applied to chiropractic. In fact, you specifically worded the RfC to not be about that. "This RfC is NOT about "research" (we are discussing that elsewhere), only the "subject" of spinal manipulation and its relation to the chiropractic profession." Perhaps we should consider creating an RfC which specifically asks the question: Can research on spinal manipulation which draws no conclusions about chiropractic be used at Chiropractic to draw conclusions about chiropractic? -- Levine2112 08:54, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

• In fact, this is the same set of arguments that have been repeated ad nauseum on the talk page already. If we look at this a bit more deeply, the problem is in both the original statement and response. You see Levine, you started by opening with statements I had asked that you not use, both "This doesn't specifically mention chiro" and "SM research is OR in this article" hence, you received the response I was also hoping to avoid. Clearly these arguments describe two opposing views that are incompatible and thus neither argument will help us move forward. This is why I requested a compromise to resolve the OR issue; removal of the material doesn't represent a compromise, instead it represents the position you've held fast to since these debates started months ago.
• If this is the best foot that can be put forward, then we need to look elsewhere to resolve the issue. Up to this point there have been numerous community discussions on this issue, both on the talk page of the article and at various noticeboards. The most pertinent of the discussion threads are at Talk:Chiropractic/Archive_18#RfC:_Effectiveness_of_chiropractic_care, Talk:Chiropractic/Archive_22#RfC:_Effectiveness_of_chiropractic_care, Misplaced Pages:No_original_research/noticeboard/Archive_4#Chiropractic_section_on_evidence_basis, Talk:Chiropractic#RfC:_Is_the_.22subject.22_of_spinal_manipulation_relevant_to_chiropractic.3F and recent discussion at Misplaced Pages:OR/N#Outside_views_needed.. I find it troublesome that in many places, the editors most involved in this dispute spend a great deal of time arguing with each other instead of allowing editors outside of the situation to comment. However, when those outside opinions are reviewed, a strong pattern emerges:

• All of the outside editors who commented on the RfCs felt that spinal manipulation belonged in the article and was integral to understanding chiropractic.
• All but one of the outside editors felt that general spinal manipulation studies were appropriate; a single editor suggested that studies should be specific to chiropractic spinal manipulation.
• All of the outside editors felt that spinal manipulation should be covered in detail at its own article, but that an overview of pertinent information was necessary in this article as well.
• In the areas reviewed, none of the outside editors agreed that the use of spinal manipulation studies in this article was original research.

• There are several involved editors who feel very strongly that material on the efficacy of spinal manipulation is not appropriate for this article and they have argued extensively to this point. However, a review of these many discussions over the past months shows that despite the variety of arguments they have been unable to convince other involved editors, or even those editors who are not so involved. In Misplaced Pages parlance, this means that a general consensus has developed. So, unless there are additional reasons for the OR tag in the Effectiveness section, it needs to be removed. Shell 10:47, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

• It is difficult to reach a compromise when our arguments are ignored or there are ground rules set that don't allow us to voice them. I would suggest the compromise in this instance is to find an additional source that draws the same conclusion, but mentions chiropractic? If such an additional source cannot be found, then can we not decide that this "fact" is not well enough established to warrant inclusion? The use of the word "continuing" in the text would imply other sources should be easy to find. --Surturz (talk) 12:42, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

• I fully agree with Shell. The OR tag needs to go.

• To solve the problem mentioned by Surturz, we can just remove the word "continuing" until such a source is found. That's the quickest and easiest solution. The text should follow the sources we are actually using, not any possible sources that exist somewhere else. -- Fyslee / talk 18:18, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

• Removing the word "continuing" does not change the fact that the article quoted is a guideline for medical doctors and is not really related to chiropractors. If we really must use the reference, then perhaps removal of the 'international guidelines' part would be appropriate since it is irrelevant to chiropractors. suggested compromise "There is conflicting evidence on the efficacy of SMT for nonspecific low back pain". --Surturz (talk) 04:30, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

• I'm not sure about your point regarding it being for MDs. Mainstream treatment guidelines are generally read and adapted for use by all mainstream professions, regardless of their possibly being originally made for MDs. It's a team effort within the mainstream, and thus all mainstream guidelines are relevant to all team members. (Added later: I assume that most chiropractors who claim to be scientific practitioners will also be following along with advances in knowledge and reading those practice guidelines.) -- Fyslee / talk 05:02, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

(outdent) Chiropractic is clearly described as an alternative medicine system in the article and I don't think anyone disagrees with that. I don't think you can make the case that chiropractic is part of mainstream medicine, and I don't think you'd want to. Therefore, it is right to question the relevance of an article which is aimed at medical doctors and not chiropractors. --Surturz (talk) 05:18, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

I agree that it is correctly classified as alternative, but the progressive portions of the profession are actively following along with modern research, and the chiropractic researchers we have quoted certainly notice practice guidelines and can learn from them, but, as the Mercy Guidelines debacle showed, they have a hard time getting straights to follow them. Chiropractic has for a long time attempted to profile itself to the public as a mainstream, scientific profession. Any chiropractor who claims to be evidence based or who claims to believe in science, should be reading practice guidelines and following them. They should be practicing according to the latest and best evidence. I have added a sentence above to make this clear. -- Fyslee / talk 06:58, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

• It's incorrect to assert that Murphy et al. 2006 (PMID 16949948) is "aimed at medical doctors and not chiropractors". That article was published in the Journal of Manipulative and Physiological Therapeutics, an official journal of the American Chiropractic Association. The journal's stated goal is "advancement of chiropractic health care" and its audience is primarily chiropractors.
• It's also incorrect to assert that Murphy et al. is a "guideline". It's not; it's an article about guidelines, not a guideline itself.
• Surturz's suggested rewording seems to be based on these two incorrect assertions, which leads to obvious problems; perhaps Surturz could rephrase the suggested rewording with the corrections in mind?
• Fyslee suggested removing the word "continuing". However, the word "continuing" is directly supported by Murphy et al., which talk about "continuing conflict of opinion" regarding efficacy of SMT (emphasis mine). Furthermore, I don't see how removing the word "continuing" would address the point that Surturz raises. Surturz is saying that the Murphy et al. does not mention chiropractic; if that claim is accurate and is a valid concern, then why would trimming a word or two from the summary of Murphy et al. address the point?

Eubulides (talk) 08:10, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

• If my reasoning is a bit inconsistent it is because I am trying to compromise, and the mediator has prohibited me from talking about non-chiro SM. Like Levine, I don't think the sentence should be in at all, however, I'll tolerate its inclusion if you and Fyslee are willing to compromise on the wording. Despite its provenance, I don't think the article is aimed at chiropractors because I don't think chiropractors set the guidelines that the article is talking about. Defending chiropractic against bad science would be within the journal's stated goal. I agree the article is about guidelines, it is not a guideline itself. So let's go back to my suggested wording: "There is conflicting evidence on the efficacy of SMT for nonspecific low back pain". What's wrong with it? The section is about efficacy, not the accuracy of guidelines, after all. --Surturz (talk) 13:01, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

• Chiropractors are involved with setting some of the guidelines. They don't write the guidelines all by themselves, of course; they're part of a committee that also includes other professionals. This point is not covered by Murphy et al. 2006 (PMID 16949948), but if you look at Table 3 (p. 2509) of Koes et al. 2001 (PMID 11707719), which Murphy et al. cites heavily, you'll see that chiropractors were involved in writing guidelines for the U.S., the UK, and New Zealand.
• Even if chiropractors did not help set the gudelines, that wouldn't mean the guidelines would be irrelevant to chiropractic. Guidelines often determine whether chiropractic care will be used or reimbursed. In the UK, for example, the guidelines are shared between GPs, chiropractors, etc.
• Murphy et al. does not really support the claim "there is conflicting evidence". What it supports is a claim that there is a conflict of opinion about the evidence. For example, on page 579 it talks about a "continuing conflict of opinion" about (among other things) "efficacy of SMT for treatment of nonspecific or uncomplicated LBP. The abstract summarizes this as "there remains a lack of consensus regarding reported efficacy of spinal manipulative therapy for the treatment of nonspecific LBP."
• Chiropractic #Evidence basis is not just about efficacy; it's also about effectiveness, safety, cost-effectiveness, and guidelines. The section's topic sentence mentions guidelines prominently, and this is followed up at some length in the 2nd sentence. One can easily imagine an alternative organization for Chiropractic, in which guidelines are discussed in a separate section or subsection. A change along those lines might improve the article, but this of course would involve moving text around rather than deleting it.

Eubulides (talk) 01:07, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

Sentence 2a

A 2007 U.S. guideline weakly recommended SM as one alternative therapy for spinal low back pain in nonpregnant adults when ordinary treatments fail...

• Source: Nonpharmacologic Therapies for Acute and Chronic Low Back Pain: A Review of the Evidence for an American Pain Society/American College of Physicians Clinical Practice Guideline, Chou et al.
• OR issue(s): Exactly the same issue as Murphy above. The source's conclusion which we are summarizing is about the efficacy of spinal manipulation in general for LBP. For us to make the leap and apply the conclusion to a discussion about chiropractic's efficacy on LBP, is in effect to use the source of context, in a manner not intended by the author, and thus constitutes a WP:NOR violation.
• Suggested compromise: Same as above. Remove from Chiropractic#Effectiveness and copy to Spinal manipulation where it can exist in proper context.

-- Levine2112 21:31, 8 November 2008 (UTC)

• Same reply as above, since the same conditions and arguments are being applied. -- Fyslee / talk 07:54, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

• This sentence actually misrepresents the article to a significant degree. The recommendation was not weak, the article says that SM is weak-to-moderately efficacious. "nonpregnant" is not relevant, that was merely a parameter of the study. "when ordinary treatments fail" is complete WP:OR - it is implied that these treatments should be considered before drugs or invasive treatments are used. Suggested compromise: "A 2007 U.S. guideline recommended Physicians consider using SM as an effective alternative therapy for chronic or subacute low back pain..." --Surturz (talk) 13:06, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

• Without commenting on any accuracy or inaccuracy issues, I would like to commend Surturz for making a new contribution that is specific. This is the kind of comment that can lead to further discussion, rather than continuing in the same old circular arguments. -- Fyslee / talk 18:23, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

• I completely agree and greatly appreciate the efforts to reach an acceptable phrasing that everyone can tolerate. Shell 19:02, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

• Surturz is quite right that the text misrepresents the cited source, but that's because the citation is wrong! The text is attempting to cite the 2007 clinical practice guidelines of the American College of Physicians, but it's incorrectly citing the next article in the same journal. I tracked the problem down to this May 15 edit by CorticoSpinal, which introduced the mention of the practice guidelines along with the incorrect citation. Here is the correct citation:

Chou R, Qaseem A, Snow V; et al. (2007). "Diagnosis and treatment of low back pain: a joint clinical practice guideline from the American College of Physicians and the American Pain Society". Ann Intern Med. 147 (7): 478–91. PMID 17909209. {{cite journal}}: Explicit use of et al. in: |author= (help)CS1 maint: multiple names: authors list (link)

• All along I never bothered to check the citation because I was referring directly to the guidelines. Thanks, Surturz, for catching the bug in the citation.
• Now, to address Surturz's point: Surturz's proposed wording is not supported by the (corrected) source. If you read the guidelines you'll see that current text in Chiropractic summarizes the source's Recommendation 7, which says:

"For patients who do not improve with self-care options, clinicians should consider the addition of nonpharmacologic therapy with proven benefits—for acute low back pain, spinal manipulation; for chronic or subacute low back pain, intensive interdisciplinary rehabilitation, exercise therapy, acupuncture, massage therapy, spinal manipulation, yoga, cognitive-behavioral therapy, or progressive relaxation (weak recommendation, moderate-quality evidence)."

• The "weak recommendation" of the source supports the "weakly recommended" of Chiropractic.
• The "when ordinary treatments fail" of Chiropractic is supported by the "For patients who do not improve with self-care options" in the source.
• The "nonpregnant" of Chiropractic is supported by this quote from the source: "Children or adolescents with low back pain; pregnant women; and patients with low back pain from sources outside the back (nonspinal low back pain), fibromyalgia or other myofascial pain syndromes, and thoracic or cervical back pain are not included."

Eubulides (talk) 08:10, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

• When the article text doesn't match the reference, you change the reference? :-) I think the "weakly recommended" is misleading because the context is in comparison to pharmaceutical treatment. ie. it is "weakly" recommended because the authors consider drugs to be superior to SMT. In terms of the actual efficacy of SMT itself, both articles say that there is moderate evidence that SMT works for low back pain. Suggested compromise: "There is moderate evidence that spinal manipulation is an effective treatment for low back pain, although it is less effective than treatment with pharmaceuticals". (with both refs) --Surturz (talk) 13:01, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

• The strength of recommendation being "weak" is independent of whether the evaluators consider drugs to be superior to SMT. What "weak" means that the benefits and risks and burdens are finely balanced for SMT. See Table 1 of the (corrected) source.
• The suggested compromise evidence is about evidence, not about treatment guidelines, as it is based on PMID 17909210 (the evidence review), not PMID 17909209 (the guideline). As such, I suggest putting it next to the other summaries of systematic reviews of the evidence, a list that is currently in reverse-chronological order.
• PMID 17909210 doesn't say that SM is less effective than treatment with pharmaceuticals, as it doesn't talk about pharmaceuticals. What it does say is that it found good evidence that SM is moderately effective for chronic or subacute low back pain. So we could add something like this: "A 2007 evidence review found good evidence of moderate efficacy of SM for chronic or subacute low back pain.", citing PMID 17909210. This could be added just before the "Of four systematic reviews" sentence in Chiropractic #Effectiveness. This wouldn't affect Sentence 2a, which is about guidelines.

Eubulides (talk) 01:07, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

Sentence 2b

...whereas the Swedish guideline for low back pain was updated in 2002 to no longer suggest considering SMT for acute low back pain for patients needing additional help, possibly because the guideline's recommendations were based on a high evidence level.

• Source: Inconsistent Grading of Evidence Across Countries: A Review of Low Back Pain Guidelines, Murphy et al.
• OR issue(s): As with the previous use of Murphy, this statement - albeit likely a faithful summary of the source - is used out of context when it is used to discuss the efficacy of chiropractic for LBP.
• Suggested compromise: Same as above. Move to Spinal manipulation where it can exist in proper context.

-- Levine2112 21:31, 8 November 2008 (UTC)

• Same reply as above, since the same conditions and arguments are being applied. -- Fyslee / talk 07:54, 9 November 2008 (UTC)
• This is out and out WP:OR and should be deleted, since the sentence is quoting text from the 'results' section of the article; it is not a conclusion of the article, it is a data point. The actual conclusion of the article is:

  Treatment recommendations for nonspecific LBP, particularly spinal manipulation, remain inconclusive. Guideline developers need to consider guidelines in neighboring countries and reach consensus on how evidence is graded and incorporated into guidelines. Guidelines should continue to be regularly updated to incorporate new evidence and methods of grading the evidence.

  I do not think it is good practice to encourage editors to cherry pick data out of studies, according to Misplaced Pages:MEDRS#Respect_secondary_sources. Pulling data points out of secondary sources is akin to using primary sources to debunk secondary sources. The article actually concludes that there is not enough evidence one way or the other for the authors to be able to recommend a change in guidelines. The current "Swedish" text above implies that there is more recent evidence to indicate that SMT should no longer be recommended. This is completely contrary to the actual conclusion of the article - the article does NOT say whether or not the Swedes did the right thing! --Surturz (talk) 13:20, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

• The current text is entirely in line with the conclusions of the article. Murphy et al. says that treatment recommendations disagree, and the current text in Chiropractic states this accurately.
• There is no "cherry picking" here: there is an overall statement in Chiropractic #Effectiveness that guidelines disagree (the main point), along with one (US) example of a guideline recommending SM, and another (Swedish) example of a guideline not recommending SM.
• It would not be neutral to remove the Swedish example and keep the US example, as the main point here is that guidelines disagree.
• It would not be helpful to remove both examples, as it's useful and illustrative to give an example of disagreement instead of to merely say that there's disagreement.
• It might be helpful to add more text, adding the point that Murphy et al. concluded that the evidence is too weak to justify altering either US-style or Swedish-style guidelines.

Eubulides (talk) 08:10, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

• Absolutely it would be helpful to remove the US and Swedish guideline examples, they are unnecessary. We can simply say the evidence is conflicted, there is no need to exhaustively illustrate the point. The low back section can and should be halved in size. Real scientific evidence is much more important than whether guidelines change; guidelines etc can be beholden to political interests. Delete! Delete! Delete! --Surturz (talk) 13:01, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

• As I understand it, this is proposing to remove the following from Chiropractic #Effectiveness:

"A 2007 U.S. guideline weakly recommended SM as one alternative therapy for spinal low back pain in nonpregnant adults when ordinary treatments fail, whereas the Swedish guideline for low back pain was updated in 2002 to no longer suggest considering SMT for acute low back pain for patients needing additional help, possibly because the guideline's recommendations were based on a high evidence level."

• As I said, I prefer keeping the text here, but it's not that strong a preference. I can go along with this change to Chiropractic, as I share your concern about length. Instead of deleting it from Misplaced Pages, though, I suggest moving it to Spinal manipulation, along with enough linking text to place it in context.

Eubulides (talk) 01:07, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

• Second issue, which has been raised before, is reliability of the source. There was no 2002 Swedish Guideline, which I realized through OR. However, because of this, it is clear the Murphy is unreliable on this point. DigitalC (talk) 11:29, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

• The current draft in #Proposed text (may be changed freely subject to rules above) no longer mentions 2002 Swedish guidelines, which I assumes makes this point moot. Eubulides (talk) 19:15, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

Combined suggestion 1 + 2a + 2b

Continuing from the section above, my suggested compromise is to rationalise both sentences to:

"There is moderate evidence that spinal manipulation is an effective treatment for low back pain, although it is less effective than treatment with pharmaceuticals."

and then link all three references we have discussed here (the treatment guidelines, non-pharma and US guideline articles). I feel this is delightfully NPOV. Pro-chiros would enjoy the comparison with drugs, anti-chiros would like the fact that drugs are more effective. --Surturz (talk) 02:45, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

• I don't see how the sources in question directly support the proposed wording.
• The proposed wording (which is about evidence) is about a different subject from Sentence 1 (which is about conflicts of opinions and guidelines), so it's not really a replacement for Sentence 1; it's a new point. As discussed above, it's reasonable to remove Sentence 2, but Sentence 1 is a key point and shouldn't be removed.
• (a minor issue) This new wording would be out of order, as the rest of the reviews are listed in reverse chronological order.
• As mentioned above, I suggest the following change to Chiropractic instead. The new wording about evidence is in italics; text to be moved to Spinal manipulation is struck out:

"A 2007 U.S. guideline weakly recommended SM as one alternative therapy for spinal low back pain in nonpregnant adults when ordinary treatments fail, whereas the Swedish guideline for low back pain was updated in 2002 to no longer suggest considering SMT for acute low back pain for patients needing additional help, possibly because the guideline's recommendations were based on a high evidence level. A 2008 review found strong evidence that SM is similar in effect to medical care with exercise, and moderate evidence that SM is similar to physical therapy and other forms of conventional care. A 2007 literature synthesis found good evidence supporting SM and mobilization for low back pain and exercise for chronic low back pain; it also found fair evidence supporting customizable exercise programs for subacute low back pain, and supporting assurance and advice to stay active for subacute and chronic low back pain. A 2007 review found good evidence of moderate efficacy of SM for chronic or subacute low back pain."

• The italicized addition is directly supported by the following statement from the cited source, which begins the conclusions section of the source's abstract:

"Therapies with good evidence of moderate efficacy for chronic or subacute low back pain are cognitive-behavioral therapy, exercise, spinal manipulation, and interdisciplinary rehabilitation."

Eubulides (talk) 06:48, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

Eubulides could you re-frame your suggestion quoting the old text to be replaced in full and the new, replacement text you are proposing. I am tentatively supportive of your suggestion, but I am unsure as to the fate of the introductory sentence. --Surturz (talk) 00:57, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

The old text is quoted in full, in the above quote: it consists of everything that's struck out along with everything in normal text. The new text is also quoted in full, in the same quote: it consists of everything in normal text, along with everything in italics. The struck-out part would be removed, and the italics converted to normal text, before the change would be installed. Eubulides (talk) 08:47, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

Is there any point continuing mediation?

Is there any point continuing mediation if the text we are discussing is going to be edited despite the mediation process? , Talk:Chiropractic#Two_edit_requests_for_admins I now feel like I am wasting my time here, and this page is all some trick to keep me off the main talk page. Which is a shame, I thought the mediation was going well. --Surturz (talk) 02:52, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

In most cases, articles are not locked during mediation. In the case of the changes requested, one was simply procedural since the template was not updated when the article was changed from move to full protection. The second was due to an editor realizing that they made an error in sourcing when they originally posted a statement - WP:V is one of our key policies, so it was important to make that change for now. Editors participating in the mediation can still decide to change the statement or add additional information covered in the other source or even use the source somewhere entirely different if they think that's best. Shell 06:00, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

I am unsure about continuing this mediation as well. I feel that Shell came into this with an opinion about an illusionary consensus which has biased her ability to effectively mediate here. I honestly feel that the best way to proceed here is to create a direct RfC which is intended only for outside comments. No one who has given their opinions on this matter thus far should make the slightest peep on the RfC as there is a tendency for self-sabotage once one of us comes in and tries to "clarify" a point or "discuss" an editors' commentary. The RfC should use the three examples above, state that none of them discuss chiropractic specifcally in their conclusions whatsoever, state that there is no agreement in the scientific community about whether or not all SM research can be directly applied to chiropractic and then ask the question: "Is it OR to use such sources at Chiropractic to discuss chiropractic (even though that is not clearly the intent of the sources)?" I honestly feel that this is the only way to proceed. The well here is too poisoned and this mediation has failed before it started, in my opinion. If the mediator wasn't going to let one side discuss their cheif concern on the outset, then what is the point of mediation? -- Levine2112 18:02, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

If you still have concerns with my reading of the consensus, you are welcome to ask for a second opinion from another admin, just as you could have with the close of the RfC. This is why I cross posted the information to the main Chiropractic page where again, no one has seen fit to disagree. I know its difficult to put down the stick since you feel so strongly about the topic, but its time to move on and find ways to work together on the article.

There are quite a number of editors who are willing to try to find a way to cooperate and they are already discovering possible solutions. This is completely voluntary, so if you're not interested in this type of collaboration, you won't be penalized for not participating except for losing the ability to have input into these suggestions and compromises. Working on a mediation means accepting that you're not going to be thrilled with every solution; there will be many times that the best we can do is find a suggestion we can all tolerate. Shell 00:08, 12 November 2008 (UTC)

I think we've made some progress so far in the mediation, with what I hope will be consensus for trimming Chiropractic #Evidence basis, a trim that should improve the article. My hope is that we can continue the process. It will take considerable work to go through the section sentence by sentence to do this, but we've got time and there's no rush. I doubt whether an RfC along the suggested lines would help to either improve the article or achieve consensus. For one thing, we've already had many RfCs and we're suffering from RfC exhaustion on this topic; for another, it's likely that an RfC written in a biased way as described above, with the other side not allowed to comment, would lead to an biased result. Eubulides (talk) 18:58, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

Me thinks a good compromise would be to trim the section a bit. Do editors agree with this suggested compromise? QuackGuru 19:34, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

Make a proposal in a new section. -- Fyslee / talk 20:50, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

Proposed compromise

I'm sorry that I may not have time to do this properly, with references, but I'm pretty sure all the required references have been mentioned on Talk:Chiropractic at some point. I'm not sure if this same compromise was suggested before, possibly by me. However, I would encourage everyone to seriously consider ending this long-lasting dispute with a compromise such as this. (If I wasn't supposed to post this here, please move it to Talk:Chiropractic.)

I would like to use WP:NPOV to resolve the issue, in the way that this policy is so useful for resolving so many disputes. Rather than edit-warring between "God exists" and "God does not exist", WP:NPOV says to write something like "Source A says that God exists, and source B says that God does not exist," and then all editors can agree that that's accurate. Let's use WP:NPOV in that way here.

We have two points of view: one that studies of the effectiveness of spinal manipulation are relevant to chiropractic treatment, and another that to find out about the effectiveness of chiropractic treatment you have to study treatment by chiropractors specifically.

I'm under the impression that both these points of view have been expressed in published sources. Therefore, the compromise I suggest is not to model the article after one or the other of the two POVs, but to describe the controversy, according to WP:NPOV. Possibly one of the

Here's a skeleton draft. It needs references and details to be added, and the wording modified to fit what the references say, perhaps mention the names of the researchers, etc.:

Some researchers state that studies of the effectiveness of spinal manipulation regardless of practitioner can provide information about the effectiveness of chiropractic treatment. These researchers cite a study ... which finds that ... . They also cite a study ... which finds that ..., and another study ... which finds that ... . Some other researchers also state that conclusions about chiropractic treatment can be drawn from general studies of spinal manipulation, and cite a study ... which concludes that ... . Chiropractors, on the other hand, assert that spinal manipulation by chiropractors is essentially different from that performed by other practitioners and that to study the effectiveness of chiropractic treatment, it's necessary to study treatment by chiropractors only. A study of chiropractors ... found that ... and another study of chiropractors ... found that ... .

An essential element of this compromise is that information can be provided from general spinal manipulation studies which don't mention chiropractic, but only if such studies have been cited by other reliable sources as sources of conclusions about chiropractic. Accepting this compromise will require some concessions from both sides of the dispute. I urge editors to seriously consider it. ☺Coppertwig(talk) 00:36, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

Admirable solution Coppertwig, but we have died-in-the-wool anti-chiro POV pushers here, and rather than try and change them (which won't happen) I think a better solution would be try something else. I had an idea this morning, perhaps we can have a "enmilitarized" zone here on the mediation page that allows limited edit-warring. What I am thinking is that we have a proposed version of the text which it is permissible to edit war upon, and if/when the "EMZ" becomes stable, it is incorporated into the article. I think some common sense ground rules for the EMZ would be "no reversions or repetitions" (ie. you must always change the EMZ text to a new version) and a good faith assumption by all EMZ participants that they are aiming for stable text. Just trying some lateral thinking here, because we have a group of editors that have been editing this article for quite a while and they have so far been unable to establish a useful working relationship. --Surturz (talk) 00:54, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

I actually kind of like Coppertwig's proposal here. I am open to exploring it further if other editors are aboard. -- Levine2112 01:33, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

I SAID this on the talk page. At least I remember saying it (: This isn't a compromise, it's as you say the basic solution to these kinds of things we're supposed to seek. ——Martin Ψ~Φ—— 01:59, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

"Some researchers..." is a violation of WP:ASF. Some researchers implies that there are researchers that disagree. "Chiropractors, on the other hand, assert that spinal manipulation by chiropractors is essentially different..." is completely unsourced and a WP:FRINGE view. It would help if references were provided with the proposed text to better evaluate the proposal. QuackGuru 02:22, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

Don't shoot the messenger? Coppertwig was clear that references would be necessary to implement this idea. I'd suggest QuackGuru, if you're interested in participating in the mediation that instead of discounting possible solutions, you do a bit of the leg work yourself to shore up the sourcing. Shell 02:32, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

A 2002 review of randomized clinical trials of SM was criticized for not distinguishing between studies of SM in general, and studies on chiropractic SM in particular; however the review's authors stated that they did not consider this difference to be a significant point as research on SM is equally useful regardless of which practitioner provides it.

Here is the current version in the article that is referenced. Here are a few additional references.

The second part of proposal was: ...which don't mention chiropractic, but only if such studies have been cited by other reliable sources as sources of conclusions about chiropractic. That would essentially delete many reliable refs from the article. I think we should keep the references in the article because they are directly related to the topic of the article per WP:OR. QuackGuru 02:55, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

(outdent) See this is the problem we've been having. We have now expended over 6000 words discussing changes to two sentences. As usual it starts off going well and then someone suggests a completely new version of the text, which prompts everyone else to put in their version, and no consensus is reached. I'm going to try the limited edit war idea... --Surturz (talk) 05:09, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

• Coppertwig's skeleton draft at first sounds like it would be a good one. But it has some problems. The most important problem is that approach taken by the skeleton draft has already been tried, and is embodied in Chiropractic now, but it obviously has not defused the situation. The embodiment in Chiropractic is in the following sentence, already quoted by QuackGuru:

"A 2002 review of randomized clinical trials of SM was criticized for not distinguishing between studies of SM in general, and studies on chiropractic SM in particular; however the review's authors stated that they did not consider this difference to be a significant point as research on SM is equally useful regardless of which practitioner provides it."

• This embodiment doesn't exactly match Coppertwig's draft wording, of course, but it is the same basic idea, and it's the closest that we have been able to approach Coppertwig's draft wording under the constraint of supporting each claim by a reliable source.
• As for Coppertwig's proposal that we not cite source X unless we can find another source Y that cites X: there are some downsides to this proposal, which may not be immediately obvious. For example, it would make Chiropractic more out-of-date, since it would exclude sources that are too recent to have been cited by other sources.
• I am unaware of any precedent for this sort of restriction on Misplaced Pages editing. I'd be more comfortable if I knew of other articles where the strategy "you can't cite X unless you can also find a Y that cites X" has been tried and has worked.
• It might help to try out this proposal on a real example. Let's take Murphy et al. 2006 (PMID 16949948), which some editors have argued is not directly relevant to Chiropractic. Murphy et al. is cited by the following reliable source, which clearly is about chiropractic:

Wilkey A, Gregory M, Byfield D, McCarthy PW (2008). "A comparison between chiropractic management and pain clinic management for chronic low-back pain in a national health service outpatient clinic". J Altern Complement Med. 14 (5): 465–73. doi:10.1089/acm.2007.0796. PMID 18564952.{{cite journal}}: CS1 maint: multiple names: authors list (link)

• The citation to Murphy et al. appears at the end of the following sentence in Wilkey et al.: "Treatment that is available for patients suffering with CLBP appears almost inexhaustible, although the evidence for the effectiveness of many of these therapies is questionable and as such, national guidelines that have been produced vary widely with regard to the timing and type of interventions that are advised." The sentence also cites 8 other sources.
• This citation to Murphy et al. demonstrates that it has "been cited by other reliable sources as sources of conclusions about chiropractic".
• But let me stop now and double-check: is this the sort of procedure that is being proposed for removing some sources from Chiropractic?

Eubulides (talk) 08:47, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

It think that's close but the caveat of "you can't cite X unless you can also find a Y that cites X" is that Y must cite X in relation to the subject of the article. In this case, Y needs to discuss chiropractic and be citing X in the context of such a discussiion. And then, we can only cite information from X which was related to chiropractic by Y. So your example above is of Murphy cited by Wilkey. Even though Wilkey is about chiropractic, it does not necessarily mean that what it is citing of Murphy has anything to do with chiropractic. However, if we decide that in fact it does have something to do with chiropractic, then that will mean that we can cite Murphy only in the context that it is related to chiropractic by Wilkey. Just because Wilkey might correlate one aspect of Murphy with chiropractic, it doesn't make Murphy in its entirity related to chiropractic.

Maybe that's an overly strict way to go with Coppertwig's proposal, but I think that is the best way to ensure that our Misplaced Pages article is most reliable in its coverage of the subject. That we are not making any assumptions which could introduce misleading information into our article is of the highest importance in terms of reliability. In the end (figuratively... there is no end, right?), I feel that this will make our article as reliable and up-to-date as the sources allow us to be -- Levine2112 09:15, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

In that case it sounds like Coppertwig's proposal may have a problem, as it can be interpreted to exclude Murphy et al. even with Wilkey et al. citing Murphy. By the way, Murphy does mention chiropractic, as most of Murphy's evidence comes from chiropractic studies, so it isn't a good example of Coppertwig's proposal (which is only about "studies which don't mention chiropractic"). Still, there is something odd about an interpretation that would exclude Murphy even though chiropractic researchers publishing in a peer-reviewed journal seem to have no qualms about citing Murphy and sources similar to Murphy. Perhaps we can see whether other editors agree with this interpretation of Coppertwig's proposal. Eubulides (talk) 09:47, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

Question to Levine please, you make this above comment "However, if we decide that in fact it does have something to do with chiropractic, then that will mean that we can cite Murphy only in the context that it is related to chiropractic by Wilkey. Just because Wilkey might correlate one aspect of Murphy with chiropractic, it doesn't make Murphy in its entirity related to chiropractic.". From how I read this, it sounds like you are either contradicting yourself, Wilkey might correlate on aspect of Murphy with chiropractic, it doesn't make Murphey in it's entirity related to chiropractic, or cherry picking what should be used or you are using this to state that the ref is no good because it doesn't use the word chiropractic throughout. To me this doesn't make sense, sorry, could you explain this thought clearer for someone like me who is pretty much just trying to watch and help out with this? I read them to be usable for the chiropractic article together as stated by Eubulides and Fyslee at this point. I am having trouble understanding why this is such an issue still after so many outside opinions have agreed that this is exceptable to policy and not a violation as has been continually been stated. I will of course admit I do not understand all the medical terminologies going on here so I am basing my opinions on my own personal limited knowledge of this. (I hope what I am saying is clear enough to answer, it is a little disorganized but I couldn't find a better way of stating my question, sorry if this is a problem in advance.) Thanks for listening, --CrohnieGal 13:49, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

Clarity is hard to acheive and I apologize for the confusion. I assure you that there no cherry-picking or contradiction there however. I am not sure how you can be getting confused by medical terminology as we really aren't using any and it sounds like you have a richer background in medical terminology than I do. I'm really just a layman here. It's pretty simple really.

• Scenario 1: We have source X which doesn't mention chiropractic in its results, discussions or conclusions. Though it relied on some amount of chiropractic evidence to form its results, discussions and conclusions, the author is not stating anything specifically about chiropractic there. Can we cite the results, discussions or conclusions in our Misplaced Pages article to discuss chiropractic? I'd say no. It wasn't the intent of the author to discuss chiropractic (or at least we cannot assume that was his/her intent), so for us to go and use such a source as a means to discuss chiropractic, we would clearly be violating WP:NOR.

• Scenario 2: We have the same source X from Scenario 1, only now we also have a source Y which in fact directly discusses chiropractic. And in this discussion, source Y cites source X. So what does that mean? Can we cite source Y in our article about chiropractic? Most certainly. Can we cite source X in terms of how source Y related it chiropractic? Yes, with proper attribution. Can we now cite any part of source X, even those results, discussions or conclusions not specifically correlated to chiropractic by source Y? No. Just because one aspect of source X has been related to chiropractic by source Y, does not mean that every aspect of source X is therefore related to chiropractic.

• Scenario 3: This is when it gets a little complicated, so hopefully you are still with me. Okay, similar to Scenario 2, only now we have a source Y which only partially discusses chiropractic. Source Y discusses a couple of things, but not chiropractic exclusively. And in its discussion of one of these other topics, source Y cites source X. Can we cite source X to discuss chiropractic in terms of source Y? No. Why? Because source Y doesn't use source X to discuss chiropractic, so neither can we.

The simplest formulation for us to look at here is given to us by our own WP:NOR policy when it talks about context: Take care, however, not to go beyond what is expressed in the sources or to use them in ways inconsistent with the intent of the source, such as using material out of context. That really says it all. Just because Murphy used some chiropractic evidence -- the amount is hardly important, though Eubulides is wrong when he says, "...most of Murphy's evidence comes from chiropractic studies". Only 2 of the 21 studies looked at were about chiropractic specifically. But even if 21 of the 21 studies were about chiropractic -- it does not mean that Murphy's intent is to discuss chiropractic. And by looking at the Results, Discussion and Conclusion sections of Murphy we can see that the authors are not discussing chiropractic whatsoever. Therefore, for us to use Murphy's results, discussion and/or conclusions to discusss chiropractic goes beyond what is expressed in the source and is inconsistent with the intent of the source. But if we find some source Y which cites one of Murphy's conclusions in a discussion about chiropractic, then the intent of source Y is clearly to use the one conclusion of Murphy to discuss chiropractic and therefore we can cite that one conclusion of Murphy to discuss chiropractic in our Misplaced Pages article (with proper attibution to source Y, of course).

I hope this clarifies my thoughts on Coppertwig's proposal and why I feel that this will result in us writing the most reliable article about chiropractic that we can source. -- Levine2112 17:51, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

Question for Levine2112: suppose we keep Sentence 1, but give as its source Wilkey et al. (a source that we agree is about chiropractic) rather than Murphy et al. Would that fix the problem you perceive? Eubulides (talk) 18:57, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

Here is sentence 1: There is continuing conflict of opinion on the efficacy of SMT for nonspecific (i.e., unknown cause) low back pain; methods for formulating treatment guidelines differ significantly between countries, casting some doubt on the guidelines' reliability.

The question is: Does Wilkey relate this non-chiropractic statement to chiropractic? I don't believe so because Wilkey's use of Murphy is not to say anything specific about chiropractic: Treatment that is available for patients suffering with CLBP appears almost inexhaustible, although the evidence for the effectiveness of many of these therapies is questionable and as such, national guidelines that have been produced vary widely with regard to the timing and type of interventions that are advised. This source would however be good for the Low back pain article. I may be mistaken and Wilkey could be sourcing Murphy to say something specifically about chiropractic. If this is the case, please provide the text from Wilkey. Seemingly, however, Wilkey disagrees with sentence 1 in part (in term of applying it to chiropractic), for Wilkey's conclusions are along the lines of suggesting that chiropractic is effective at treating low back pain and related disability.

I am going to be out of the loop for awhile, but feel free to continue this discussion without me. I will be checking in, but probably won't have access to edit for the next few days. -- Levine2112 19:15, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

(outdent)

• Wilkey et al. is a primary study about the effectiveness of chiropractic treatment, with an "Introduction" section that talks about related work and which cites Murphy et al. as noted above. Wilkey et al. has no explicit statement saying "Murphy et al. is relevant to chiropractic", or anything like that, nor would one normally expect such a statement: it's normally understood that when one source X cites another source Y, the authors of X considered Y to be directly relevant to X's topic.
• Let's take another example, just to make sure I understand Levine2112's interpretation. Ernst 2008 (PMID 18280103), "Chiropractic: a critical evaluation", says this (p. 8):

"Table 3 gives an overview of the most up-to-date systematic reviews by indication. These systematic reviews usually include trials of spinal manipulation regardless of who administered it. Thus, they are not exclusively an evaluation of chiropractic. Collectively, their results fail to demonstrate that spinal manipulation is effective. The only possible exception is back pain. For this condition, manipulation may be as effective (or ineffective) as standard therapy."

• Ernst's Table 3 is of 8 recent systematic reviews of spinal manipulation. 2 of those reviews were of chiropractic SM, and 6 were of any type of SM (mostly chiropractic SM, but non-chiro SM was included). As I understand it, Levine2112's interpretation would also exclude citing this part of Ernst 2008, because this part of Ernst 2008 is not exclusively about chiropractic. Am I correct?

Eubulides (talk) 20:38, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

Take a good look at the second sentence here, with a special eye for the way the words "not exclusively" are used:

• "These systematic reviews usually include trials of spinal manipulation regardless of who administered it. Thus, they are not exclusively an evaluation of chiropractic."

This whole discussion has really led us into a bizarre situation, having painted us into a corner where even a study that is "an evaluation of chiropractic" gets excluded because it is "not exclusively an evaluation of chiropractic." Yes, even though it is "an evaluation of chiropractic", it isn't "exclusively" about what is most fundamental to chiropractic, namely spinal manipulation, because it is an evaluation of more than chiropractic by virtue of the fact that it includes a few studies about spinal manipulation performed by non-DCs, IOW it comments on chiropractic and "more" than it. It's conclusions most certainly deal with chiropractic's main method, and even deal with all spinal manipulation. It's really bizarre that common sense can't even get a foot in the door here because it is being disallowed by wikilawyering over a supposed OR violation. -- Fyslee / talk 05:11, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

Moderator - try Limited Edit War?

Moderator, can we try my 'limited edit war' idea? Moderation is clearly failing when there is still no consensus after 6000 words+ discussing two sentences. This subpage (click here) is how I see it working --Surturz (talk) 05:24, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

Encouraging edit wars, even limited ones, doesn't sound promising. If edit wars don't work in articles, why would they work here? Eubulides (talk) 08:47, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

Fine, don't call it an "edit war". Call it "wiki-editing". I think it's a good idea; why not try it? The proposal above includes the idea that you can't revert to a previous version but must always change it to something new. That prevents any edit warring from happening. Every edit will be productive: it will create a new proposed version of that part of the article. Also, the proposal specifies that it must be done in a spirit of cooperation and of trying to arrive at a version everyone will accept. We might want to use some of the rules Elonka had established here; I was going to say but not the 0RR part, but actually maybe we do want to use that part too: no reverting to an identical previous version, but you can change things. ☺Coppertwig(talk) 14:10, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

Oh no, I don't think applying the rules from Quackwatch is a good idea at all. In my opinion that got a lot of editors to cease editing at the article and a lot of problems occurred. Maybe use the talk page and keep adding until the section is at an acceptable version, but wait, this is what they have been doing all along and look where it's at. Maybe each sentence under dispute can be put in this mediation separately and then the sentence, or whatever, can be worked on under the protection of the mediator's descretions to prevent circular arguments. I think Shell has been doing a great job trying to prevent the same arguments to go on here and that the editors need to be specific in there changes, as the mediator has requested often. --CrohnieGal 14:44, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

• I really like the idea presented in Surturz's subpage; since we're already trying to throw back and forth new suggestions to find one that works for everyone, this would let everyone see those changes and make tweaks of their own without filling up copious space on talk pages. Crohnie, the difference here would be editing on a subpage trying to find a compromise within restrictions, not any restrictions on the article itself. Shell 00:50, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

Limited Edit War on Chiropractic#Low back pain

A limited edit war has been declared on this section by User:Surturz. You may change the text in the 'proposed text' section without discussion, subject to the following rules:

• no reversions
• each edit you make on the section must be at least slightly different to any previous version
• You may add chat in the 'discussion' section, but using the edit summary to explain your change is acceptable
• the goal is to develop stable text that improves the article and is tolerable to all concerned

Once the proposed text is stable, it will be assumed to have consensus for inclusion in the main article. This limited edit war is sanctioned by the mediator of this page, Shell --Surturz (talk) 05:18, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

Current text (only change to match current version as necessary)

• Low back pain. There is continuing conflict of opinion on the efficacy of SMT for nonspecific (i.e., unknown cause) low back pain; methods for formulating treatment guidelines differ significantly between countries, casting some doubt on the guidelines' reliability. A 2007 U.S. guideline weakly recommended SM as one alternative therapy for spinal low back pain in nonpregnant adults when ordinary treatments fail, whereas the Swedish guideline for low back pain was updated in 2002 to no longer suggest considering SMT for acute low back pain for patients needing additional help, possibly because the guideline's recommendations were based on a high evidence level. A 2008 review found strong evidence that SM is similar in effect to medical care with exercise, and moderate evidence that SM is similar to physical therapy and other forms of conventional care. A 2007 literature synthesis found good evidence supporting SM and mobilization for low back pain and exercise for chronic low back pain; it also found fair evidence supporting customizable exercise programs for subacute low back pain, and supporting assurance and advice to stay active for subacute and chronic low back pain. Of four systematic reviews published between 2000 and May 2005, only one recommended SM, and a 2004 Cochrane review stated that SM or mobilization is no more or less effective than other standard interventions for back pain. A 2008 systematic review found insufficient evidence to make any recommendations concerning medicine-assisted manipulation for chronic low back pain. A 2005 systematic review found that exercise appears to be slightly effective for chronic low back pain, and that it is no more effective than no treatment or other conservative treatments for acute low back pain.

Proposed text (may be changed freely subject to rules above)

• Low back pain. Some researchers contend that research results about the efficacy of SMT in general are indicative of the efficacy of chiropractic treatment. There is continuing conflict of opinion on the efficacy of SMT for nonspecific (i.e., unknown cause) low back pain. A 2008 review found strong evidence that SM is similar in effect to medical care with exercise. A 2007 review found good evidence that SM is moderately effective for low back pain lasting more than 4 weeks; a 2007 literature synthesis found good evidence supporting SM for low back pain regardless of duration. Of four systematic reviews published between 2000 and May 2005, only one recommended SM, and a 2004 Cochrane review stated that SM or mobilization is no more or less effective than other standard interventions for back pain. Methods for formulating treatment guidelines for low back pain differ significantly between countries, casting some doubt on the reliability of the guidelines' recommendations.

Also, in Chiropractic #Treatment techniques, change this sentence:

Medicine-assisted manipulation, such as manipulation under anesthesia, involves sedation or local anesthetic and is done by a team that includes an anesthesiologist.

to this:

Medicine-assisted manipulation, such as manipulation under anesthesia, involves sedation or local anesthetic and is done by a team that includes an anesthesiologist; a 2008 systematic review did not find enough evidence to make recommendations about its use for chronic low back pain.

Discussion

• Incorporated Eubulides suggested text as a start. --Surturz (talk) 05:29, 13 November 2008 (UTC)
• Altered the proposal to match what I actually proposed here. The proposal was to leave the initial and final parts of the paragraph alone, and change just the middle. Eubulides (talk) 01:45, 14 November 2008 (UTC)
• Sanctioned by mediator Shell, moved to mediation page. --Surturz (talk) 03:51, 15 November 2008 (UTC)
• Coppertwig removed the text "casting some doubt on the guidelines' reliability", saying "I didn't find this in the source (maybe I missed it)". However, the cited source (p. 579) says, "The most surprising finding, and a factor that casts some doubt on the reliability of the recommendations made, was that the levels of evidence and/or grades of recommendation used for formulating treatment recommendations varied so significantly between countries." The recommendations in question are the recommendations made by the guidelines. I am restoring the text to "casting some doubt on the reliability of the guidelines' recommendations", which hews to the original more closely, even though I prefer the brevity of the original. Eubulides (talk) 21:06, 15 November 2008 (UTC)
• Surturz merged the discussion of Meeker et al. 2007 (PDF) and Chou et al. 2007 into the single phrase "Two 2007 reviews found good evidence supporting SM and mobilization for low back pain and exercise for chronic low back pain". But this isn't an accurate summary of Chou et al.: it did not mention mobilization and (unlike Meeker et al.) it did not find good evidence supporting SM for acute low back pain. Chou et al. did find good evidence for subacute or chronic low back pain, but not for acute. If we're going to trim, I suggest trimming the lower-quality evidence from Meeker et al., as it's arguably not worth mentioning here. This will let us remove the phrase "one of which also found fair evidence supporting customizable exercise programs for subacute low back pain, and supporting assurance and advice to stay active for subacute and chronic low back pain". Similarly, we can also remove the lower-quality evidence from Bronfort et al. 2008 (PMID 18164469). This will let us remove the phrase "and moderate evidence that SM is similar to physical therapy and other forms of conventional care". We can merge the two reviews more carefully, and explain the "subacute" and "chronic", using the following wording: "A 2007 review found good evidence that SM is moderately effective for low back pain lasting more than 4 weeks; a 2007 literature synthesis found good evidence supporting SM for low back pain regardless of duration, and supporting exercise for low back pain lasting more than 12 weeks." I've made the changes suggested in this bullet. Eubulides (talk) 06:31, 16 November 2008 (UTC)
• I'm holding off editing for the moment to let others have a go, but I'm not sure why we are going into so much pedantic detail. This is an encyclopedia article, not a literature review. The key points are that there is a fair bit of evidence that SM works for low back pain, although there are some contrary views. I'm not sure why the medicine assisted manipulation sentence is included (since it doesn't conclude anything), nor am I entirely sure why there is a sentence talking about exercise (while I am sure some chiros would prescribe exercise, I'm sure many doctors would too, so I don't think it warrants inclusion). I think the discussion about guidelines should be moved to the end, because the source article is really talking about how the guidelines are formulated, not about accuracy of the guidelines themselves (as is stated in the current text). --Surturz (talk) 03:15, 17 November 2008 (UTC)
• This section has been substantially trimmed. It is much shorter compared to the previous version. A lot of text has been deleted. I think it is short enough. QuackGuru 06:36, 17 November 2008 (UTC)
• While I'm fine with the way the section has been trimmed, I'm also willing to explore Surturz's suggestions for further trimming in Chiropractic; my assumption, which I think we all share, is that the deleted text can be moved to Spinal manipulation or other such article where the extra detail can be useful. (Good comments from Surturz, by the way; thanks.) The medicine-assisted-manipulation (MAM) comment is there only because there was consensus a while back that MAM should be covered in Chiropractic. Personally I don't care one way or another, but if MAM is covered, a brief note about effectiveness is in order; perhaps it'd be best to fold this into the earlier mention of MAM rather than to mention MAM again here. Removing discussion of exercise is reasonable, in the interest of brevity. Moving the guideline discussion to the end is fine too. I've made edits along these lines to the draft above. Eubulides (talk) 06:46, 17 November 2008 (UTC)
• I added the previous version to make it easier for editors to compare both versions. QuackGuru 17:46, 17 November 2008 (UTC)
• Why? The shorter version is the current proposal. Introducing a previous proposal confuses things. Why don't you just change the current proposed version according to the rules that have been endorsed by the mediator? --Surturz (talk) 23:29, 17 November 2008 (UTC)
• We have a difference of opinion. I propose the medium short version is the best proposal. QuackGuru 00:38, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

References

Please keep this section at the bottom. TO ADD A NEW SECTION, just click the EDIT link at the right and add the new section ABOVE this one. Then copy the heading into the edit summary box.

(The following resolve otherwise-dangling references: )