Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 10:58, 18 November 2008

Please stay calm and civil while commenting or presenting evidence, and do not make personal attacks. Be patient when approaching solutions to any issues. If consensus is not reached, other solutions exist to draw attention and ensure that more editors mediate or comment on the dispute.

This is Jimbo Wales's talk page, where you can send them messages and comments.

Put new text under old text. Click here to start a new topic. New to Misplaced Pages? Welcome! Learn to edit; get help. Assume good faith Be polite and avoid personal attacks Be welcoming to newcomers Seek dispute resolution if needed

Archives: Index, Index, A, B, C, D, E, F, G, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37, 38, 39, 40, 41, 42, 43, 44, 45, 46, 47, 48, 49, 50, 51, 52, 53, 54, 55, 56, 57, 58, 59, 60, 61, 62, 63, 64, 65, 66, 67, 68, 69, 70, 71, 72, 73, 74, 75, 76, 77, 78, 79, 80, 81, 82, 83, 84, 85, 86, 87, 88, 89, 90, 91, 92, 93, 94, 95, 96, 97, 98, 99, 100, 101, 102, 103, 104, 105, 106, 107, 108, 109, 110, 111, 112, 113, 114, 115, 116, 117, 118, 119, 120, 121, 122, 123, 124, 125, 126, 127, 128, 129, 130, 131, 132, 133, 134, 135, 136, 137, 138, 139, 140, 141, 142, 143, 144, 145, 146, 147, 148, 149, 150, 151, 152, 153, 154, 155, 156, 157, 158, 159, 160, 161, 162, 163, 164, 165, 166, 167, 168, 169, 170, 171, 172, 173, 174, 175, 176, 177, 178, 179, 180, 181, 182, 183, 184, 185, 186, 187, 188, 189, 190, 191, 192, 193, 194, 195, 196, 197, 198, 199, 200, 201, 202, 203, 204, 205, 206, 207, 208, 209, 210, 211, 212, 213, 214, 215, 216, 217, 218, 219, 220, 221, 222, 223, 224, 225, 226, 227, 228, 229, 230, 231, 232, 233, 234, 235, 236, 237, 238, 239, 240, 241, 242, 243, 244, 245, 246, 247, 248, 249, 250, 251, 252Auto-archiving period: 2 days

Archives

Index -index- As of January 16, 2003 September – December 2005 January 2006 January – February 2006 February 2006 February 2006, cont. March 2006 April 2006 - late May 2006 May 24 - July 2006 July 2006 - August 2006 August 2006 Most of September 2006 Late September 2006 - Early November 2006 Most of November 2006 Late November 2006 - December 8, 2006 December 9, 2006 - Mid January 2007 From December 22, 2006 blanking Mid January 2007 - Mid February 2007 Mid February 2007- Feb 25, 2007 From March 2, 2007 blanking March 2-5, 2007 March 5-11, 2007 March 11 - April 3, 2007 April 2 - May 2, 2007 May 3 - June 7, 2007 June 9 - July 4, 2007 July 13 - August 17, 2007 August 17 - September 11, 2007 September 14 - October 7, 2007 October 28 - December 1, 2007 December 2 - December 16, 2007 December 15 - January 4, 2008 January 4 - January 30, 2008 January 30 - February 28, 2008 February 28 - March 11, 2008 March 9 - April 18, 2008 April 18 - May 30, 2008 May 30 - July 27, 2008 July 26 - October 4, 2008 October 4 - November 12, 2008 November 10 - December 10, 2008 December 5 - December 25, 2008 December 25 - January 16, 2009 January 15 - January 27, 2009 January 26 - February 10, 2009 February 8 - March 18, 2009 March 18 - May 6, 2009 May 5 - June 9, 2009 June 10 - July 11, 2009 July 12 - August 29, 2009

This page has archives. Sections older than 2 days may be automatically archived by Lowercase sigmabot III.

Cindy Adams

I will, of course, respect your wishes on this subject. As the issue on Talk:Rush Limbaugh shows, I'm just at my wit's end with public people not telling the truth to their followers. But, my respect for you outweighs that. On an unrelated note, could you e-mail me regarding the Africa issues in the e-mail I sent you and Erik? I would be grateful. --David Shankbone 23:17, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

In my experience, which unfortunately I have sometimes learned from all too slowly, when we are at our wit's end about something, this is the best time not to write. :-) I can give this advice, which I consider good, even when I know that I have in the past and will in the future sometimes forget it. I will email you, yes. I am a bit behind on email but I hope to catch up this week, I have a solid block of time allocated for it.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 00:31, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

Just because you rock

		The Original Barnstar
		Well, for founding the most wonderful project in the world. The idea is beautiful, not only for the US, but especially for developing countries where knowledge is needed. Great idea! David (contribs) 00:09, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

Some help

I sent you an email regarding this, but in case you don't read it:

Do you think that edit summaries like this, this, and things like this should be used by an admin? And isn't it standard procedure to add Template:Block when blocking a user? Have a look into Scarian blocking User:SlayerXT and the Category:Misplaced Pages sockpuppets of SlayerXT. And i'm not sure, but is it standard place to revert every single one of a blocked users edits no matter what? because Scarian reverted every single one of the edits, with no explanation. Alot of times, Scarian's reverts constituted vandalism because it removed portions of artilces (such as infoboxes) that the banned user added in. Any thoughts? I can provide examples of reverts that messed up stuff if needed. - -' The Spook (TALK) _{(Share the Love with Barnstars)} 23:22, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

I have no opinion about the the SlayerXT puppetry issue. From his anger, I have to suppose that he found this so blindingly obvious that it outraged him that anyone would disagree. So, probably he was right about that. But no admin should ever behave in that way with the screaming and cursing. That's just not what we do around here. So I have desysopped him. However, I hold forth some hope that this was a compromised account or similar.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 00:25, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

No, no compromised account, just melodramatic irritation. I have apologised to Luke here. I quite agree that desysopping me was the correct route as my behaviour was without reason and completely illogical. Sorry for taking up your time! Scarian 00:32, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

'Done.' Thanks for the quick and responsible response. I recommend a bit of a wikivacation next time something starts to cause you to get that riled up. Or take pleasure in an absurdly civilized response to a difficult situation. Instead of "This guy is a fucking cock and he is pissing me off right now" try "I am sorry, kind sir, but I remain unpersuaded by your comments. I am quite sure the fault is all mine, and yet in good conscience I cannot follow the course of action you recommend." :)--Jimbo Wales (talk) 15:28, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

On the other hand, I regard Scarian as one of the good guys here, and am fully aware of the frustrations and burnouts that can occur here. It's easy to step away from all this, unless it's actually become an act of faith to seek to protect Misplaced Pages. Is this a permanent desysop or will it be reviewed by time-limitation, reference to ArbCom or a further RfA? --Rodhullandemu 00:54, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

I'll bet that Jimbo, the big softie, gives back Scarian's tools once there has been time for introspection and an understanding that gross incivility is contrary to the values of this project. Being rude to trolls or perceived trolls is not helpful at all. Jehochman 00:58, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

Hey Jimbo. I did not see that this was being discussed here as well as ANI, so I will avoid cross-posting. I would, however, like to encourage you to look at my comments on ANI, since I feel that this desysopping may be a bit harsh, considering Scarian's reaction - admitting fault and apologizing for his actions. J.delanoy_adds 01:03, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

Thanks

Thanks for trusting me enough with the mop for a whole year now. I try to avoid politics on Misplaced Pages, so we don't generally interact all that much, but there's always a cup of tea and a warm chair available for you on IRC, should you get too stressed with the whole project. Thanks again for the past year - it's been great. Chase me ladies, I'm the Cavalry (talk) 00:59, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

Scarian

When you desysopped Scarian was this a "Jimbo as constitutional monarch" action, or "Jimbo as a steward/founder" action? To put it another way, can Scarian be resysopped through normal means later?--Tznkai (talk) 03:12, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

This is moot now, but I'd just like to say that clear guidance on any similar incidents would be nice.--Tznkai (talk) 23:22, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

I here by award you sir with this barnstar

		The have a Good HeartBarnstar
		You have a good heart.". Wiki is always a better place when you are on duty! -- Danger^Mouse (talk) 04:24, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

ANI desysop discussion

Heya, you desysopped Scarian earlier; well, in the subsequent discussion we thought of a wonderfully awesome idea. Copying mine for convenience.

• "If I may, I'd like to remind everyone that Jimbo desysopped Scarian because he believed his account to be compromised (and I'm sure people can see where he's coming from). There's plenty of logic in taking down an account that could be used to blank the main page a few seconds later. However, now that we know what actually happened, I think that Scarian's sysop should be reinstated and then the community can decide whether he should keep it or not."

That was my proposal; several users agree that we should go this way. I was just wondering what you think on the matter. Cheers, Master of Puppets _{Call me MoP! :)} 06:35, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

Hi Jimbo. At the above noted discussion there is currently some community consensus to resysop Scarian - although there are arguments that the short duration of the thread make consensus less than absolute. Many editors have noted his immediate recognition that he was in error in his actions - something I think that is most important. Given that Scarian has made highly productive use of the admin tools in the past it would also seem we are doing ourselves some disservice by not alowing him to continue editing with them - but that's my personal take. Will you reconsider your action in light of Scarian's prompt recognition of his errors and the communities calls for resysoping? Pedro :  Chat  12:03, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

His reconsideration is not necessary, since it is not an action he had any legitimate authority to take in the first place. Kurt Weber (Go Colts!) 15:24, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

In case any newbies are reading this and wondering, Kurt is wrong about that, wrong in every way. Kurt's view of what constitutes "legitimate authority" is mistaken.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 21:01, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

Kurt; he had every right to. Any bureaucrat would have acted the same way if they saw a potentially compromised account. Master of Puppets _{Call me MoP! :)} 16:07, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

Actually, there is no way any bureaucrat would take that action. Stewards, on the other hand... ;-) J.delanoy_adds 18:06, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

Note that Kurt can (somehow) manage to disagree with just about anything, probably even inanimate objects. --Deskana (talk) 21:07, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

I meant steward, my mistake. I was thinking next level up. :P Master of Puppets _{Call me MoP! :)} 22:38, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

No, my view is quite correct. On a community project, no one person has any legitimate authority to unilaterally undo a community decision. Kurt Weber (Go Colts!) 04:25, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

So then, by your logic, should a sysop's account be compromised, and it shows all the tell-tale signs of being compromised, that everyone should reach a community consensus to de-sysop it, rather than letting a higher-up de-sysop it immediately. The problem with doing this, is that while you're gaining consensus for this de-sysop, the compromised account can go around Misplaced Pages and creating alot of work for people, since it has many powers and tools at it's disposal.

Quite simply, while we're busy talking about it, it can go around and delete everything at it's whim, with nothing to stop it.

I don't know about you, but if I were an admin, and my account was compromised, I would want it blocked and de-sysopped immediately to prevent any of that kind of stuff from happening.

Do tell me, what is your argument for letting the compromised account run around and ruin stuff while we talk about it?— Dædαlus /_Improve 04:36, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

The simple fact that the end does not justify the means. Kurt Weber (Go Colts!) 04:41, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

Actually, in this case, the end does justify the means.— Dædαlus /_Improve 04:47, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

No, it doesn't. Kurt Weber (Go Colts!) 04:56, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

Unless of course, the community by and large supports that person's powers to do so, which makes it a community decision, but thats all a bunch of pseudo political theory, in practice Jimbo has the ability to do the things he does, and has the authority to do so. You may disagree with that situation, but it doesn't change that the situation exists, an important distinction in communicating with the faceless masses of Misplaced Pages readers on this page, policy discussions, and even article writing.--Tznkai (talk) 04:33, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

The most certainly does not support it; it's just that people are by and large scared shitless to speak up. Were we to start from a blank slate in this regard, the community would never acquiesce to him having these unilateral powers. No one doubts he has the practical ability to exercise these powers; in fact, that's the whole problem! Kurt Weber (Go Colts!) 04:41, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

So, let's get things straight. You don't agree that people trust Jimbo to use his powers wisely, and you yourself don't trust him.— Dædαlus /_Improve 04:47, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

Correct. Kurt Weber (Go Colts!) 04:57, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

So then you have a conflict of interest in this matter and shouldn't be participating, since you can never be convinced otherwise of your own personal opinions. It's like having a homeowner from New Orleans on a judge panel to decide whether or not to impeach Bush. Because of this conflict of interest, there is no real point in defending one's-self against your rebuttals, as your mind-set does not allow anyone to convince you otherwise. In this case, it could be viewed as disruption, as you would be arguing people in circles about what consensus is versus your distrust in Jimbo, just like LGR, and the way he/she argued people in circles in AfDs. It is nothing but disruptive to the project.

Everyone here knows that you don't really agree with anything, as stated above, or, as stated above, that you just don't trust Jimbo. Arguing with them about their choices isn't helping anything, because, as viewed above, they obviously put much thought into their arguments.— Dædαlus /_Improve 05:34, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

LuketheSpook was trolling for a block/desysop

I think you should be aware that the above now indef blocked sockpuppet had previously reported Scarian to WP:AIV with a view to having a block enacted. I declined the report, commenting that ANI was the appropriate venue. For reasons that are now apparent (his own policy violations would be quickly discovered) LtS contacted you. I again wrote that ANI was a more appropriate place for his complaint when I note he had written here. While Scarian's comments were inappropriate, it should be concluded that LtS was trolling and he has exacted exactly the response he was looking for. I hope you bear this in mind when you review the many comments made in regard to this matter. LessHeard vanU (talk) 13:57, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for your consideration and resysopping Scarian, Jimbo. As I've just pointed out to him, the events have had a very positive outcome, even if the ride was a bit bumpy.--Alf 00:34, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

Softie

Jimbo has re-sysopped Scarian (talk · contribs). Jehochman 23:02, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

Unless I've misunderstood some irony here, that makes Jimbo a "softie"? Forgive me, but I didn't see it working like that. Scarian was undoubtedly under pressure, took it personally, and possibly over-reacted; that lead to a desysop. It was such an out of character glitch that as a preventative measure it was obviously thought reasonable to assume prima facie that his account had been compromised, and there can be no complaint about that. However, those of us whose principal motivation here is preserving Misplaced Pages from those who would seek to make it fail, for whatever reason, are under pressure. We see an editor vandalising one article that perhaps we have watchlisted, look at the contributions, and find a rats' maze of other undetected and subtle subversions, which would be a full-time job to check. The "willy-poo-poo" or "X is gay" vandals are easily detected, because they tend to target well-watched articles; likewise the content-blankers. But we have no rational defence against someone who changes our information subtly, by changing the population of Rhode Island, say, by adding or deleting 300,000 citizens. Such errors tend to persist if nobody is particularly watching those articles, and the less-watched articles tend to suffer from that problem. So is it any wonder that Admins whose principal focus is fighting vandalism tend not only to get frustrated, but also to burn out, because it's often a silent service for which no appreciation is forthcoming? We do it for the correct and proper provision of knowledge, but sometimes that is little reward in itself. --Rodhullandemu 23:44, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

I think Jehochman may have titled this section in a tongue-in-cheek reflection of the situation... Daniel (talk) 00:15, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

Well, much as I appreciate Jonathan's input here generally, and also that humour isn't easily conveyed by text alone, he has a job with an income and I don't. So although I try to hide my rancour and bitterness, it's still very hard for me to reconcile that whereas some editors take this project less than seriously, for others, it's all they've got. That may change, of course; the decision has to be taken whether food and heating override having an internet connection. For 99%+ of editors, that probably isn't an issue. For me, doing something I believe in, for a change, makes that all-important difference between living and, er, not. Actually, as the voice of cool rationality here, Jehochman is currently my second choice for the upcoming ArbCom election, even if I must lodge my votes by proxy. --Rodhullandemu 00:35, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

Lucky Penny

		A Lucky Penny
		In the spirit of "See a penny, pick it up. All the day you'll have good luck", this penny is offered to Jimbo Wales as Thanks for creating WikiPedia...--Buster7 (talk) 06:46, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

Hello

Hello Mr. Wales. With all the respect, i have some doubts about the project

1. Why wikipedia have some articles with pedophilia? Examples: The article of virgin killer (in whose article did controversy) and in the article of Lina Medina. Was necesary the pedophilia?
2. Why the only users that have the right to write in the article Israel defenses the sionism? Misplaced Pages is controlled by sionists?
3. In the case of jewish holocaust, many articles (example: the doctor Mengele) confirmed things that still dont know with accuracy?

Thanks for the responses.

PD: My english is very bad, i hope that you understand

--Unviejoenemigo (talk) 19:23, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

Let me answer those:

1. Misplaced Pages is not censored.
2. Provided the statements made in an article are verifiable by reference to reliable sources it meets Misplaced Pages's guidelines for inclusion.
3. See 2.

I will post a welcome message on your talk page with lots of links for you to read about how WP works. – ukexpat (talk) 20:52, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

Unviejoenemigo, the project is useful and every year more useful. That said we do have problems that people are working on to help make Misplaced Pages better. Misplaced Pages contains information about pedophilia; but does not contain any illegal pornography. Nudity is not sexuality. There is nothing in itself wrong or illegal with non-sexualized nudity. Children play nude at many European nude beaches for example. It is not true that "the only users that have the right to write in the article Israel defenses the sionism". Misplaced Pages is not controlled by sionists (Zionists); but English speaking people generally have a favorable opinion of Israel so one would expect that reality to be represented in the English language Misplaced Pages. WAS 4.250 (talk) 21:12, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

Jimbo please just disregard this message. This guy is from the Spanish Misplaced Pages where he has been posting the same Holocaust denial nonsense. I would have removed this one if it hadn't been commented on already. EconomicsGuy (talk) 07:28, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

Ugliness of your idea that everybody can contribute - 'discussion' about Holocaust

Encyclopedia of the Holocaust

A joint and most comprehensive Holocaust project of more than 200 scholars which International Editorial Board counted 24 world-renown scholars - a four volume book of 1904 pages collecting and desciribing all aspects of the Holocaust: events, places, actions, people involved in. This book is a reference book quoted and cited by scholars

Definition of the Holocaust on XVII page, Vol 1

... the Holocaust - here defined as the Third Reich's attempt during the period of Nazi power (1933-1945), to physically destroy the Jews of Europe - from the antecedents to its postwar consequences

Concentration camps entry is on pages 308-316, Vol. 1: The camps were subdivided into labor camps (Arbetslager), transit camps(durhgangslager), prisoner of war camps (Kriegsfangenlager) and extermination camps (Vermachtungslager). A map of camps is given on page 308. On the map is visible: one (1) concentration camp in France, sixteen (16+1) in Germany + Prussia, 1 - Austria, 2 - Croatia, 7 - Poland 7, 1 - Lithuania, 1 - Latvia, 2 - Estonia Maly Trostenets near Minsk Byelorussia is not marked on the map but it is described on pages 940-1, Vol 3. by Shalom Cholakowski

There are no other extermination camps and sites as it was suggested in the template

Jasenovac entry on pages 739-740, Vol 3. by Menachem Shelach "The largest concentration and extermination camp in Independent State of Croatia"

Sajmiste entry on pages 1323-1324, Vol 4. by Christopher R. Browning - concentration (85% of Serbia's Jews) and extermination camp (killed by hunger, diseases and gassed in gas vans)

Statements in 'discussion' here (http://en.wikipedia.org/Template_talk:The_Holocaust) containing explict or implicit Holocaust denial in Independent State of Croatia:

Rjecina: 'Jasenovac has been extermination camp (maybe even greatest non Holocaust camp), but there is agreement between Holocaust scholars that Jasenovac is not Holocaust extermination camp.

VirginSlim: We're dealing with an area of history that's in flux, that's the problem, with definitions of the Holocaust changing, with even the same scholarly sources using the term differently within the same book.

Nitsansh : Bottom line: I wouldn't consider Jasenovac as extermination camp, definitely not by Nazi definition

AniMate: in terms of the Holocaust there have always been six camps designated as extermination camps

EyeSerene: Rjecina, I do see a rough consensus on this talk page that the camps under dispute can be fairly described as extermination camps, although they may not fall under a strict definition of Holocaust camps. Therefore I think your additions to the template are supported.

Ricky81682: Agree with AniMate. At the Holocaust article, Jasenovac is mentioned mostly for the Southern Slavs killed, but here, it is being placed under the Jews. I think it could go under the "Other victims" subsection as an extermination camp there.

Bottom line: Going to expose these 'experts' in newspapers or/and with help of the Anti-Defamation League. Some of the 'notables' above are your administrators. --I am Mario (talk) 02:58, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

Jimbo, I'll leave this to others, but this feels a lot like a threat, in violation of WP:NLT. I think I'm too involved. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 06:40, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

Jimbo just so you know it, I am Mario was blocked just a few days ago for posting rants like this yet he keeps doing it apparently. EconomicsGuy (talk) 07:32, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

Well, I didn't mean it as "Jimbo, here's something you should do"-type thing so much as a "Jimbo and others, I'm curious about what to do with this user." The argument is at Template talk:The Holocaust where a number of different editors have been popping up all arguing based on the same source. I'm just particular concerned about the "I'm going to 'expose' people to newspapers and complain to the ADF by calling them anti-Semitic because they won't let me put my link at the top of Template:The Holocaust instead of down another section." That can't possibly be conducive to working together or remotely within the lines of civility. There's always WP:ARBMAC because I'm too involved to hand out discretionary sanctions. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 09:01, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

I would simply argue for a focus on the fundamentals here. Assume Good Faith. Use reliable sources. No personal attacks. Try to make sure that what Misplaced Pages says is actually supported by the sources. Make sure that the sources used are generally considered high quality. Make sure that our view of the sources is not arbitrarily selective in order to paint a particular picture. For questions like this, questions surrounding the precise definition of the Holocaust, remember that emotions will be high and that there is a tendency for people to view people on the other side in an unfavorable light prematurely. If we do all of those things, then threats to "go to the press" or to complain to this or that pressure group will have little impact.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 10:58, 18 November 2008 (UTC)