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All masters, true or false, lived without working, preaching was their job. There is no proof that Jesus worked as a carpenter until he was 30, that is just how we have tried to fill the inexplicable silence of the gospels on most of his life. All masters have lived from the "payments" of their followers, including Jesus, etc. Prem Rawat may be the first or one of the few to be financially independent. Why are there not similar remarks on "payments" in all other biographies of religious and spiritual leaders? All masters, true or false, lived without working, preaching was their job. There is no proof that Jesus worked as a carpenter until he was 30, that is just how we have tried to fill the inexplicable silence of the gospels on most of his life. All masters have lived from the "payments" of their followers, including Jesus, etc. Prem Rawat may be the first or one of the few to be financially independent. Why are there not similar remarks on "payments" in all other biographies of religious and spiritual leaders?
--] (]) 21:56, 19 November 2008 (UTC) --] (]) 21:56, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

:This isn't a discussion forum. No discrimination is going on surrounding this topic. There are discussion forums available for you to join if you want to have discussions with other premies. See There are also many blogs you can read that are written by adherents of Prem Rawat which give you the chance to comment if you want. Just do a Google Blog search and plug in "Maharaji." You'll find plenty of premies to contact and converse with. There's no discrimination happening here because as Maharaji always says, as well as his organizations' FAQ state, practicing Knowledge and following him is compatible with, but not a spiritual practice, philosophy, life-style or religion. Therefore, your complaints about discrimination are unfounded. Best wishes. ] (]) 22:50, 19 November 2008 (UTC)


== References (please keep this section at the bottom of the page) == == References (please keep this section at the bottom of the page) ==

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Archive
Archives

Archive index
  1. June 2004 – July 2004
  2. July 2004 – July 2004 (1)
  3. July 2004 – July 2004 (2)
  4. July 2004 – August 2004
  5. August 2004 – August 2004 (1)
  6. August 2004 – August 2004 (2)
  7. September 2004 – September 2004 (1)
  8. September 2004 – September 2004 (2)
  9. September 2004 – September 2004 (3)
  10. October 2004 – October 2004
  11. October 2004 – April 2005
  12. June 2005 – August 2005
  13. August 2005 – October 2005
  14. October 2005 – February 2006
  15. February 2006 – March 2006
  16. March 2006 – April 2006
  17. April 2006 – April 2006
  18. April 2006 – May 2006
  19. May 2006 –
  20. July 2006 – September 2006
  21. September 2006 – November 2006
  22. November 2006 – January 2007
  23. January 2007 – March 2007
  24. March 2007 – May 2007
  25. May 2007 – July 2007
  26. July 2007 – October 2007
  27. October 2007 — December 2007
  28. December 2007 — February 2008
  29. February 2008
  30. February 2008 (2)
  31. February 2008 - March 2008
  32. March 2008
  33. (Archive 33)
  34. (Archive 34)
  35. (Archive 35)
  36. (Archive 36)
  37. (Archive 37)
  38. (Archive 38)
  39. (Archive 39)
  40. (Archive 40)


Free of charge

If we're going to cite sources saying that the initiation is free of charge then we also need to include the sources that say initiates are expected to pay for having received the Knowledge. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 03:33, 3 November 2008 (UTC)

Which sources? The techniques have been always offered free of charge. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 19:00, 3 November 2008 (UTC)
We have several sources that say initiates were told they were in Maharaj Ji's debt for the rest of their lives. Here's a variation on the theme:
  • The Knowledge session began about noon with an examination of each of the potential premies. Do you really believe Guru Maharaj Ji is the Lord? Do you really want to serve Him and Him alone? Do you have any someother gurus? One young man made the mistake of saying that he wanted to receive Knowledge even though he was still a follower of Jesus. "Then get Jesus to give you Knowledge," retorted the mahatma. Asked why she wanted to receive Knowledge, one girl replied innocently enough that she wanted to find God. She was rejected along with nearly half of the others. After a lunch break we settled into the serious business of making contact withhttp://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Talk:Prem_Rawat&action=unwatch

Unwatch the primordial vibrations of the universe. We were instructed to sit up straight, keep our eyes on the mahatma and answer all his questions in loud, clear voices. The first step was for everyone to take all the money out of his pockets, present it at the foot of the altar and express eternal gratitude and devotion to Guru Maharaj Ji. "If all you have is a check, sign it so that it can be cashed," instructed the mahatma. One boy was found to be holding out enough for his bus fare home. "What if Guru Maharaj Ji doesn't want you to go home?" asked the mahatma. He told us to meditate sever hours a day, covering the head for the divine light pa and told us that the first time we saw Guru Maharaj in person we should turn our right ear to him so that he might "blow you a puff of grace." He gave us greeting to be used in addressing other premies an passed out pieces of paper with his name and address. "Send your worldly possessions here," he said. "Do you love Guru Maharaj Ji, or do you love your money?"

  • Rawson, Jonathon (November 17, 1973), "God in Houston: The Cult of Guru Maharaji Ji", The New Republic, p. 17
That doesn't seem consistent with being free. I'm not saying we shouldn't report the claim that it's free, I'm just saying that if we do we also need to report on the actual reality. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 20:49, 3 November 2008 (UTC)
Well, I do not know where that reported got that, but the "actual reality" is that techniques are free of charge and have always been free. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 22:50, 3 November 2008 (UTC)
The citation information is there. It's not alone - I've seen at least one other source that says a follower was told after the "free" initiation that he was now in debt to Guru Maharaj Ji. We can report both the claims of it being free and the reports of demands of money. Or we can leave them both out. But it wouldn't be NPOV to include only half of the story. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 00:07, 4 November 2008 (UTC)
We're talking about official policy not what one Indian mahatma said. Momento (talk) 00:45, 4 November 2008 (UTC)
That's fine. We might phrase it something like, Officially, there is no charge for receiving Knowledge, but initiates have reported demands for payment. Let me dig up the other source and then we can decide on the exact wording. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 00:53, 4 November 2008 (UTC)
Not "payment". There has been, and still is, always a demand for money, and money has never been scorned. But Prem Rawat has sysytematically made it clear that money has nothing to do with the initiation and the practice of Knowledge, and the issue of raising money has been very distinctly and sensibly been seperated from the core issue of spreading Knowledge. In the very early Indian mahatma days of DLM the leading staff obviously was not aware of the touchiness of western society concerning monetary issues, but even then it was clear for every interested person that there was no such thing as payment. Rawat has repeatedly publicly stressed that he personally resisted tendencies in DLM to charge money for the initiation, and he made sure that lack of money never was an obstacle for receiving Knowledge. Otherwise propagation could hardly have been successful in Africa, India, South America. And even in the rich countries a person without money has in no way been discriminated or barred from participating at events. This has been policy for several decades now, and is in fact quite remarkable. There has never been a pretense that money is worthless, when everybody knows it is not. But there was cleary never a sense of payment. Hard to understand for tabloid minds.--Rainer P. (talk) 04:05, 4 November 2008 (UTC)
I don't have the advantage of personal experience in this field. I only know what I read. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 04:15, 4 November 2008 (UTC)
Sure. I'm just trying to help with understanding, can't hurt.--Rainer P. (talk) 07:42, 4 November 2008 (UTC)
I should point out that while Rainer's remarks are quite true from my experience, I think he is using the word "demand" in the economic sense, to mean a "need," not the more common sense to mean an insistence on payment. Rumiton (talk) 12:51, 10 November 2008 (UTC)
Thanks for clarifying, Rumiton. The German word in my mind was "Bedarf". I was not aware of the ambiguity of "demand".--Rainer P. (talk) 15:00, 10 November 2008 (UTC)
Again, what happened in early DLM times, mentioned 30 years later, gives a false impression. What is important is what the general policy has been in the last decades and specially now on the "payment"/donation subject. There may have been some mahatmas in early times that did or said wrong things, at a time when control was rather by Prem's mother, and some mahatmas perhaps brought wrong habits from India. You probably know that Prem has dismissed mahatmas due to wrong behavior, and I am not even sure if some mahatmas were "inherited" from his father's times. Was it easy for a 12 or 13 year old boy to control all that?
The master is responsible for policies and guidelines, but is it right to blame the master for each action of each mahatma, initiator or follower? One of the ex-premies of the early organization wanted to charge a fee for receiving Knowledge, which of course Prem rejected. He was later dismissed from the organization and decades later still has a website dedicated mainly to denigrate and ridicule Prem's early times. If Prem complied with his view, no university would accept Prem. Please do not ask me names, I have found this information in internet and you may find it too.
Is it not logical to bring a present to a Satguru at initiation? It would be extremely ungrateful that a present is given to friends and family every birthday, and to the person who gives you the most precious gift, not only of this lifetime, but of all your dozens or hundreds of lifetimes, which is the possibility of liberation from the long imprisonment of the soul in the bodily prison and limitations, you would not give anything.
You may call it payment or you may call it gift, according to your perception. In my case, in 1974, in London, where I went from the Canary Islands, I was told in Spain to bring a gift, not money, so I gave the gift I had brought, gold-engraved hand-cuffs and a neck-tie pin, which the Mahatma returned to me, they were useless for him or Maharaji (though they could have sold them) as they used oriental clothes, no tie (imagine my ignorance of oriental things at the time, like most western people).
The mahatma accepted what we had brought (aprox. 15 people for iniciation in the room), some brought gifts, some money and some nothing, and did not check who brought something and who did not, nobody was refused initiation for that (or any other reason in my case), nor have I ever heard of anyone not initiated for lack of gifts or money, nor refused to attend an event for the same reason. I have been attending events for years without doing any regular donation or contribution at all, (apart from the entrance fee to pay the event expenses), nobody ever asked me at the door if I was contributing with anything or not.
Is it right to bring negative anecdotes from 30 years ago as part of Prem's biography? That is not the story of Prem's life, which does not include all his followers experiences, nor a description of his message, which is the most important thing, but is almost buried under the negative opinions of "experts" (in many different fields that have little to do with yoga, which is the origin of Prem's teachings) and negative anecdotes. Sorry to say, Prem's biography is a disaster.--Pedrero (talk) 02:24, 16 November 2008 (UTC)
How much are the entrance fees? ·:· Will Beback ·:· 02:39, 16 November 2008 (UTC)
My highlights . ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 16:42, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

The cost of producing the Keys is covered by the contributions of people who support Maharaji's efforts to make his message widely available. The preparation process and the session where the techniques are taught are free of charge. Knowledge is a gift from Maharaji. The Keys are distributed around the world by various nonprofit organizations, formal and informal, staffed mainly by volunteers. The Keys are not sold, and neither Maharaji nor the organizations supporting his work receive a financial benefit from their distribution. There is no charge for the Keys or the preparation process. In some areas, a shipping and handling fee and a deposit may apply.

This event is supported by contributions. $90 per person is the average amount needed to cover the anticipated costs. Each person is invited to contribute according to his or her ability. Our combined generosity will make this event successful.

Perhaps it would be better to say something like, "contributions are requested but not required." ·:· Will Beback ·:· 20:00, 16 November 2008 (UTC)
Any other thoughts? ·:· Will Beback ·:· 18:26, 18 November 2008 (UTC)
No other thought than that Knowledge has always been free of charge.Momento (talk) 23:55, 18 November 2008 (UTC)
So Knowledge is free, but there's a fee for attending the meeting where Knowledge is given? (Waived for those who show financial need?) ·:· Will Beback ·:· 01:46, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

Might I try figuring this all out? The lessons are free, though it is expected that donations will be made. Now, are the donations like the Mormon Church, where some set percentage is expected? Like the Protestant tradition of a "weekly offering"? Like the (all too common) Jewish practice of an annual fee for the High Holidays? The televangelist model of "send us all you can spare"? Which model comes closest to the Prem Rawat model? Thanks! Collect (talk) 00:03, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

Everything has always been free - attending the meetings and learning the techniques. In the 70s "Indian" days people often brought gifts like fruit, flowers or something symbolic to the Knowledge session but they were never mandatory or necessary. Some Indian mahatmas may have asked for donations in the early 70s but they were wrong to do so. As Rawat made clear in his first talks in the west "This Knowledge is for you...it has been made absolutely free for you" Westminster Hall 1971. These days receiving Knowledge involves watching the Keys videos. The Keys website says "There is no charge for the Keys videos or for the Knowledge session. The Keys are available on a loan basis. Shipping and handling charges and a deposit may apply. The costs of producing the Keys are met by the voluntary contributions of people who appreciate Maharaji's message. Knowledge is a gift from Maharaji and is offered free of charge".Momento (talk) 02:02, 19 November 2008 (UTC)
Might I get a more realistic answer? Running the organization costs money. What is the mode of raising money? Does it meet any model above? If not, what is the fundraising model? What are the levels of "voluntary contributions" for example? Are they given weekly? Annually? Randomly? And further lessons beyond the Keys? Thanks! Collect (talk) 02:07, 19 November 2008 (UTC)
Here you go: There is no tithe or other similar types of requests; people donate as they do to any other non-profit organizations. You may read http://tprf.org/tprf/annual_report.htm which may clarify this for you. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 03:05, 19 November 2008 (UTC)
Am I correct that the average donation for the Foundation is about $750 per annum from the 2,000 donors? Is money donated to other entities as well, or is the Foundation the primary recipient of gifts? Collect (talk) 14:18, 19 November 2008 (UTC)
So there's no entrance fee to any of Rawat's talk? No charge to attend festivals? That's not what our sources say. One, I'd have to go check, says that the number of festivals were increased in order to raise more money, and that followers were pressured to attend. ·:· Will Beback ·:·
If the question is "does Rawat charge for Knowledge or speaking engagements?" then Rawat is the obvious one to answer that question and he says he doesn't. I'm sure you can find a source that says he charges but as we know even the most reliable sources can get it wrong and some of the sources we've used get it wrong often.Momento (talk) 10:56, 19 November 2008 (UTC)
  • In the 1970s DLM encouraged premies to tithe their incomes and many premies did indeed tithe their incomes in the U.S. The ashrams, of course, tithed its combined income to Prem Rawat and gave another 10% on top of that to DLM. It's ridiculous to say "everything is free of charge." Donations are requested constantly and Elan Vital and TPRF goe out of their way to ask for donations all of the time, including how a premie can make EV or Prem Rawat, the beneficiary of a premie's life insurance policies and their estates upon their deaths. The Gulfstream V jet Rawat uses exclusively isn't paid for by Prem Rawat, so someone is paying for it. And he didn't get wealthy by working. The carrot on the stick in this NRM is that "everything is free." And, of course, no one has to pay to enter a Knowledge Session to get the meditation techniques nor do they pay to watch the 70+ hours of dvds (except for postage and handling) that's required for a newcomer to "prepare" themselves to be considered able to enter that Knowledge Session. Nor do newcomers pay for the facilities that they go to when they "receive" the Knowledge techniques, but somebody is paying for all of those things: those facilities, dvd production, the cost of live programs around the world, Rawat's travel expenses, including the the jet fuel and upkeep and maintenance of the jet, which runs around $300K to $400K per month, etc., etc. Now, whether there are sources that state all of the above is another question, but for anyone to say that no one has to pay anything, is absurd. Gimme a break, "free of charge."  :) Sylviecyn (talk) 14:04, 19 November 2008 (UTC)
Do you have any cite for such a jet having such high maintenance charges? Jossi pointed me to the Foundation financial report, but any further cited info would help a lot! Collect (talk) 14:21, 19 November 2008 (UTC)
Any comments in this section are addressing the issue brought up in the opening comment which was "If we're going to cite sources saying that the initiation is free of charge then we also need to include the sources that say initiates are expected to pay for having received the Knowledge. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 03:33, 3 November 2008 (UTC) And as you, SylvieCyn confirm "of course, no one has to pay to enter a Knowledge Session to get the meditation techniques nor do they pay to watch the 70+ hours of dvds (except for postage and handling) that's required for a newcomer to "prepare" themselves to be considered able to enter that Knowledge Session. Nor do newcomers pay for the facilities that they go to when they "receive" the Knowledge techniques", So yes, "Everything (regarding receiving Knowledge) has always been free - attending the meetings and learning the techniques". But many people support making this gift available to others and contribute time and money to do so. Just like people support the Red Cross that is a multi million dollar enterprise with cars and planes and buildings and paid staff. No one makes them, they want to help.Momento (talk) 18:49, 19 November 2008 (UTC)
Your comparison of anything Rawat-related to The Red Cross is specious, misleading, and false. It's tantamount to Jossi's comparison of "Millennium '73" to the bombing of Pearl Harbor which was a grandiose comparison. Elan Vital, The Prem Rawat Foundation, and Prem Rawat are in no way "like" the Red Cross. You're misleading people by saying that, you know you're misleading people, and you ought to stop doing it. The fact is that the Red Cross isn't an NRM or a cult, it doesn't keep it's fundraising secret from the public, it never conceals its fundraising efforts by keeping them private from some contributors, as in Rawat-related organization's practices of holding secret meetings with wealthy, major donors.
Furthermore, The Red Cross doesn't have a spiritual leader, titular or otherwise, therefore it never holds private programs on private "charity" held land where darshan lines are conducted so Red Cross contributors can line up to kiss the feet of its spiritual Master, while handing over envelopes filled with undocumented cash. The Red Cross doesn't conduct secret initiation sessions for people, like Elan Vital does (which the Knowledge sessions surely are), there are no requireiments of members or donors to make promises to keep secrets in the Red Cross, as Elan Vital and Prem Rawat asks of its initiates, and there are no requirements when one contributes to the Red Cross, that donors devote themselves to an individual Avatar, Messiah-figure, as Prem Rawat surely is. So please stop talking to people here as if they are morons, Momento. Divine Light Mission/Elan Vital and TPRF don't hold a candle to any legitimate charity organizations that have decades-long legitimacy and a legitimate focus on helping people (for the sake of helping people, not enriching a leader or CEO). The fact is that anyone who becomes a follower of Prem Rawat is strongly pressured to donate money, with urgency to do so applied. And anyone who denies that fact is a baldfaced liar. Sylviecyn (talk) 22:29, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

Press

Why the material about how PR was termed in the press is being reverted? The manners in which the press referred to PR can and should be placed on the Reception > Media section. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 18:58, 3 November 2008 (UTC)

"reception topics with a limited time fork can usually go in the biographical account" :
  • "cult leader" has a time fork of 25 years — earliest reference used in the article: Larson 1982; latest: Mendick 2007.
  • "playful and pontifical" has a single reference, pre-"Millenium '73", so can easily go in the "Leaving India" section of the biography (that is, unless someone can indicate other occurences of the same characterisation belonging to other time periods of the subject's biography - as far as I'm acquainted with the sources there is none)
  • "messenger of peace" has a single reference, 2000s, so can easily go in that section of the biography (that is, unless someone can indicate other occurences of the same characterisation belonging to other time periods of the subject's biography - as far as I'm acquainted with the sources this characterisation indeed only turned up in the 2000s, as far as third-party sources are concerned).
So, please provide more sources, if available, if these last two are to be used as general "reception" topics, otherwise I'm afraid these characterisations fall short of the undue weight policy as far as the reception section is concerned. --Francis Schonken (talk) 19:19, 3 November 2008 (UTC)
That arguments seems quite random, and I disagree with the segregation. If we have a media section, the way that PR was termed in the media (not in Larson's who has a very specific bias and is not the media) can and should be compiled into one sentence and placed in Reception > Media were it belongs. 22:47, 3 November 2008 (UTC)
I disagree - we should include as much material in the chronology as possible. We don't segregate material from other sources, such as official DLM sources or scholars, but we include those in the biography as they best fit. The sections at the end are for general assessments that don't fit into the chronology. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 01:01, 4 November 2008 (UTC)
So, you disagree that for "some" press references to PR is OK to segregate to the chronology, but for or other press is better to have in the Reception section? What is the rationale for that distinction, and what goes where? It seems to me that this is either disingenuous at worst, or random at best. Care to explain?≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 03:57, 4 November 2008 (UTC)
In cases where we can place things into chronological order that's the best approach, and helps keep us from falling into the "crticism section" problem. Views of the subject, whether positive, negative, or neutral, should be spread across the article a appropriate and not segregated at the end. If we have a source, no matter whether from a scholar, a journalist, or whoever, on an event then that should be included in chronological order. If we have sources that makes broad generalities that can't be pegged to any particular time then those are suited to catchall sections at the end. So it's a simple principle - keep as much material in chronological order as practical. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 08:43, 4 November 2008 (UTC)
But that does not work for a neutral presentation of the press section. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 18:09, 4 November 2008 (UTC)
The press section seems like it should be mostly devoted to a discussion of how the press covered the subject, rather than individual reports by the press. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 18:42, 4 November 2008 (UTC)

I have consolidated these again in the press section, as there is no valid reason provided for segregating some and not doing so on others. I have also removed material that was unrelated to the press. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 06:58, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

Reasons were given above: read. --Francis Schonken (talk) 07:55, 10 November 2008 (UTC)
Deleting sourced material simply because it's in the wrong section isn't a good way to write an encyclopedia. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 08:00, 10 November 2008 (UTC)
And this is useful? Or just an seemingly clever way to assert WP:UNDUE? ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 19:09, 10 November 2008 (UTC)
If it was deleted for being in the wrong section then a "right" section needs to be found. I'd have thought just placing it in "Reception" would have worked. Why did you delete it instead of moving it? ·:· Will Beback ·:· 20:37, 10 November 2008 (UTC)
  • The first Larson's Book of Cults was published in 1982. Larson's New Book of Cults, a revised and updated version, appeared in 1989. The latest and updated edition (2004) is "Larson's Book of World Religions and Alternative Spirituality". I cannot find any mention of "cult leader" in any of these editions. Please provide page number, or delete the cite. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 19:56, 10 November 2008 (UTC)
    • Page 208 of the 1982 edition. However I'm not sure we're phrasing this material the best way. While a number of sources use the exact phrase, "cult leader", far more use the words separately but with the same meaning. I think it'd be better to develop this into a short paragraph in the reception section, one that covers the perception of Rawat's organizations as cults and, if necessary, his role in those organiations. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 20:37, 10 November 2008 (UTC)
      • I don't see it in page 282. What edition do you have? Can you provide the text? ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 21:38, 10 November 2008 (UTC)
        • Page 208 of the 1982 edition. (Not page 282 of the 1908 edition!) Larson writes:
          • But before any final obituaries on Guru Maharaj Ji are pronounced, it would be wise to ponder the teachings and practices that precipitated his sudden rise to power. In the seeds of his fame may be the genesis of other cult leaders having an Eastern inclination, Understanding what the DLM taught and represented may give a clue forewarning society of other personality cult figures.
        • (Always glad to help provide verification for challenged citations.) ·:· Will Beback ·:· 21:44, 10 November 2008 (UTC)
          • It does not assert that "he was termed" as such, and in any case, he does not include this statement in the latter, actualized editions. I say we need to lose it. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 22:00, 10 November 2008 (UTC)
            • "Actualized"? What does that mean? Anyway, the phrase "other cult leaders " clearly refers back to Guru Maharaj Ji. Note further that the material is contained in a chapter titled "Major cults". Are you disputing that Larson describes the DLM as a cult, or Rawat as its leader? ·:· Will Beback ·:· 22:05, 10 November 2008 (UTC)
  • BTW, I found this on page 205 of the same edition:
    • In the early seventies Guru Maharaj Ji commanded one of the largest and fastest-growing followings of all imported cult leaders.
  • That seems pretty direct. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 10:58, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

Proposal

This is what I had (see Talk:Prem Rawat/Archive 38#New subsection for "Reception" section (proposal)):

===Cult leader?===

Rawat has been termed a cult leader in popular press reports, and anti-cult writings.

Associating Rawat with the term "cult leader" is disputed on several grounds:

  1. The movement that developed around Rawat is not a cult.
  2. Whatever the movement, Rawat is not its leader.

Further, that possibly unclear aspects in this sense (for example referred to as "Hindu/Indian trappings") were removed by the early 1980s at the latest.

The discussion of whether or not the movement has cult-like characteristics is at least partially a semantic discussion. For instance, Maeve Price and Roy Wallis distinguish between sects and cults, where the first is characterized by epistemological authoritarianism and the second by epistemological individualism, from which Price concludes that the term sect is more indicated in the case of the Divine Light Mission.

General reference sources may however use the word cult in connection to Rawat's movement without such distinctions.

At least formally, Rawat was not the leader of most organizations around him: when he became Satguru for the adherents of DLM in India in 1966, the practical leadership of that organization remained in the hands of his family members for several years to come, and would become consolidated as such in 1974. The DLM organization founded in the United Kingdom in 1970 was controlled by his mother for the first years of its existence. The U.S. DLM was not founded by Rawat either (he was still a minor at the time), and even after it had been reformed to Elan Vital in the early 1980s Rawat was not formally its leader.

In general terms, however, Rawat's leadership with regard to the movement around him is asserted in most sources.

It was rejected on grounds of OR. Can anyone do better? Please proceed! --Francis Schonken (talk) 20:49, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

Why did you delete the material I added? Please restore. It is highly pertinent and relevant ands gives the necessary context. Also, you do not address the WP:UNDUE concern that I raised. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 21:30, 10 November 2008 (UTC)
You didn't explain the undue weight issue. How much weight do you think this topic is due, and why? ·:· Will Beback ·:· 21:45, 10 November 2008 (UTC)
Look at the article as it stands now and tell me if adding a section for one sentence is not WP:UNDUE. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 21:55, 10 November 2008 (UTC)
As you can see, Francis is proposing expanding it with the text presented here. You've drafted a long sentence to add as well. If the section contained a full paragraph or two would that address your concern? ·:· Will Beback ·:· 22:00, 10 November 2008 (UTC)
No. It will not. Placing a couple of sentences as per my edit here (which was reverted by Francis), in the Reception intro section will. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 22:04, 10 November 2008 (UTC)
Let me ask again: how much weight do you think this material is due, and why? ·:· Will Beback ·:· 22:07, 10 November 2008 (UTC)
Let me ask again: Do you believe that a section as short as this one, or even a couple of more sentences, as added to the TOC is not WP:UNDUE? ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 22:10, 10 November 2008 (UTC)
I don't think it matters much whether this material is in a section of its own or in another section. Francis created the section because you deleted the material on account if it being in the "wrong" section. Now can you answer my question? ·:· Will Beback ·:· 22:13, 10 November 2008 (UTC)
Sure. See Cult leader. That explains it, in the best possible manner. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 22:14, 10 November 2008 (UTC)
You're speaking in riddles. We have several reliable sources that refer to the subject as a "cult leader", and several dozen sources that refer to him as the head of a cult. Is it your contention that any mention of this material is undue weight? ·:· Will Beback ·:· 22:17, 10 November 2008 (UTC)
I think that neither you or I can respond to that question. I have asked Jayen to weigh in, as he may be in a better position to come up with a proposal that we can live with. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 22:21, 10 November 2008 (UTC)
If you can say something has undue weight that implies you have some idea of what due weight is. When challenged, you've declined to answer. Just adding links to Misplaced Pages policies and saying there's a violation isn't useful if you can't say what the violation is. If you want your concern to be addressed you need to explain it. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 22:26, 10 November 2008 (UTC)
Of course I can say what the WP:UNDUE is in this case. And in fact, I have said it now, and in previous discussions on this specific subject. I am pragmatic, and know that it would be impossible for you and I to agree on this, so that is why I have asked Jayen to weigh in who in the past has managed to provide good ideas to bridge the gap between our almost always opposing views. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 22:36, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

<- Claiming something is wrong without giving any evidence is just an empty complaint. Let's talk about how much weight is due to the numerous reports that the subject was the head a cult. Clearly, his (spiritual) leadership of the DLM and EV was inextricably linked to his prominence as an individual. Virtually no sources discusses him without mentioning them, and vice versa. And I don't think anyone would dispute that the DLM in particular, but also the EV, was termed a "cult" in many sources. "NPOV says that the article should fairly represent all significant viewpoints that have been published by a reliable source, and should do so in proportion to the prominence of each. " The view that Rawat as the head of a cult is a very prominent viewpoint. NPOV requires that we give it proportionate space in the article. We mention accolades that appear in only single sources. Views that appear in dozens of sources require significantly more weight. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 22:49, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

I'd say a brief reference in the media section mentioning the use of the label is enough, and I wouldn't even insist on that. Why? Because it's just a derogatory term, much like slut and nigger. To address the weight argument, google news alone e.g. lists almost 1500 news articles referring to Michael Jackson as "Wacko Jacko". Yet our FA on the man mentions the term once. We don't have a subsection named "Wacko Jacko", although I'm sure there are people who'd like to create one. :-) Jayen466 23:23, 10 November 2008 (UTC)
I disagree. There is no indication that the sources which used the term used it as a derogatory epithet to make fun of the subject. Rather, it was used as a descriptive term. A better comparison would be how many sources refer to Jackson as a "child molester", which may be negative but is also descriptive. Closer to the "Wacko Jacko" label would be things like "Boy Guru" and similar labels which were commonly used but aren't mentioned in this article (though for some reason Momento wanted to add them). Getting back to the material in this article, it appears that this is a major viewpoint, supported by numerous sources. Regarding how we should treat it in this article, it appears that the section "Charismatic leadership" appears to be used as an alternative or euphemistic term for "cult leader". Perhaps that material can be merged with the material that Francis has drafted to make a section which covers this issue fully. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 23:37, 10 November 2008 (UTC)
I will not oppose adding a few sentences to the Charismatic leadership section. Just note that Francis piece is too close for comfort to WP:OR, so a trimming of that + the sentence I added, may work. Jayen: would you try to do it? ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 00:43, 11 November 2008 (UTC)
Since the topic is contentious, it'd be best to post a draft here so we can all review it before placing it in the article. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 00:51, 11 November 2008 (UTC)
Please incorporate the material into your proposal, as a starter. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 21:31, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

James T. Richardson, a sociologist and lawyer that studies new religious movements, and Brock Kilbourne, have argued for researchers to abandon the use of the term "cult" based on the well-documented fact that attitudes towards new religions are heavily influenced by the mass media who has presented the subject in heavily negative and mainly sensationalistic terms; while other scholars refer to activist in the anti-cult movement as not making distinctions between Guru Maharaji and others.

I looked up this reference, and it quotes Ted Patrick's book, Let Our Children Go!. We don't quote Patrick, so I'm not sure of the relevance. It appears to be a general attack on the anti-cult movement, rather than a response to the specific issues proposed for this article. Would it be appropriate to include comments on cults in general? I don't think so, and I don't this that the general view of the anti-cult movement is appropriate either. I think that at a minimum the last clause should either be omitted, or context given, by quoting Patrick directly. Let's try to stick to addressing the topic of this article. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 00:59, 11 November 2008 (UTC)
Have you read the entire paragraph in the source? It is an good paragraph, cited to several authors and provides the necessary context about the "terming" and refers directly to PR. I can argue, that Larson's is not as relevant as this one.≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 01:02, 11 November 2008 (UTC)
I would argue further, that if you call Richardson's an attack on the anti-cult movement, we can easily call Larson's to be an attack on PR or others. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 01:06, 11 November 2008 (UTC)
Informally, I agree that Larson is unsympathetic to non-Christian religious movements. But we can't say he "attacks" PR unless we have a source for that. We have plenty of sources that speak generally about cults and mention DLM/EV and PR/GMJ. If we're going to include a general assessment of the anti-cult movement it may make sense to include general comments about cults. However I don't think that is a good road to go down. We already have articles on those topics. This article should remain focused on the topic. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 01:21, 11 November 2008 (UTC)
This article should remain focused on the topic -- sure, but if you want to add material from Larson, as well as sensationalist papers, then it is OK to add some context. Let's wait to see if Jayen can bridge the gap with some of his brilliant prose. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 01:24, 11 November 2008 (UTC)
Also note that the way most scholars refer to "cult" is not the same as the anti-cult or the popular media. And surely we will not go into making that point either, so we need to be cautious on how we cover this, otherwise the non-scientific, popular use will have prevalence and that will not be OK. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 01:27, 11 November 2008 (UTC)
Larson and about two dozen other sources. I dont' see how a discussion of Patrick helps provide context for Larson, or why we need to get into discussing people who have their own articles already. For Larson, simply identifying him as an evangelist or something similar would be sufficient. We have to be careful that "context" isn't "poisoning the well" with issues that aren't directly relevant. As for your last point, popular views of the subject are relevant, too. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 01:31, 11 November 2008 (UTC)
The source and the sentence is very good, and provides the necessary context and balance for the characterizations on the other sources. As I said, let's give Jayen a chance and see if he can help out with this. Good night. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 01:34, 11 November 2008 (UTC)
With all due respect to Francis' draft, and Jayen's writing ability, I don't think we're quite ready to draft text yet. Let's start by assembling our sources. Once we have those it should be reasonably easy to summarize what they say. I've started a page a Talk:Prem Rawat/cult leader where we can copy in the citations that seem appropriate. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 01:56, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

<outdent>Just want to weigh in here about the use of the word "cult." It's absolutely not the same as using "slut" and "nigger." That's a bizarre notion to promote here. I could provide scholars that do use the term and they might not be sociologists or "scholars of new religious movements" working in academic religion depts., but indeed they are still scholars. Adherents might want to label those scholars as "anti-cult movement," but that's also a pejorative label frequently espoused by adherents of NRMs, and the CESNUR scholars who support them. That subject is controversial in its own right. Plus, the use of a particular English term is not the subject of this article. If a source uses the word "cult," then it should be used in the article. It's a word in the English lexicon and is still used. It's only a perjorative from an adherent's point of view.

Btw, if using "cult" were tantamount to "slut" and "nigger," then news media would never use it and they frequently do use it. Btw, the media never use the word "nigger," to describe a black man, or "slut" to describe a prostitute, for example, but they do use "cult" to describe an NRM. I find it disturbing that Misplaced Pages tries to elminate the use of that term. I thought this was an encyclopedia, not a cultural movement. It might be helpful to the process of these Rawat articles, if Jossi stepped back considering his COI. I find it incredible that he's still forcing his pov on editors here, thereby blocking the writing process of the Rawat articles. Am I the only person noticing this disruption? The ARBCOM praised him for using restraint, I'm not seeing any such restraint here or in the Millennium '73 article. Sylviecyn (talk) 14:29, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

I think the word cult is nearly always used pejoratively. It can in no way be considered descriptive, as suggested above. It describes nothing, just brings to mind a small group of people with anti-social beliefs and practices and probably dress code. The only exception might be particular religious scholars who have their own in-house definition of the word that isn't clear to anyone else. And prior to political correctness, English-language media were using racial and mysogonistic insults freely. They stopped because they were forced to, not because of their elevated social consciences. Misplaced Pages can and should do better. Rumiton (talk) 14:44, 14 November 2008 (UTC)


Def 6 from RHD: "a religion or sect considered to be false, unorthodox, or extremist, with members often living outside of conventional society under the direction of a charismatic leader." It is not labelled as "pejprative" in any dictionary I found. Laying aside, therefore, that objection, the issue is whether this person meets the definition of being a "charismatic leader" and whether the group is "unorthodox" with members living "outside of conventional society." WP:WTA offers this opinion: " a small religious group with novel religious beliefs and a high degree of tension with the surrounding society: in that case, it must be clear that a neutral sociological usage is intended." Thus "cult" is not a word which is "pejorative" in esse, but if you are sensitive, all thatis needed is a note that the "sociological meaning" is being used. It is not, furthermore, a "racial and (mysogynistic) insult." Collect (talk) 15:04, 14 November 2008 (UTC)
I was referring to the words "slut" and "nigger" with which it was being compared. And if "considered to be false, unorthodox or extremist" is not pejorative, perhaps you will give us an example of what is? Rumiton (talk) 15:25, 14 November 2008 (UTC)
I fear you miss the word "or" in the dictionary definitions. Is this group "unorthodox" by any chance? In which case, the dictionary definition appears apt. Then I pointed out the WP solution which is to use the term as a sociological term meaning " a small religious group with novel religious beliefs and a high degree of tension with the surrounding society." Does the group fit what WP avers is a sociological usage? That is -- is this group a "small religious group"? Does it have "novel religious beliefs"? Does it have "a high degree of tension with the surrounding society"? If so, and it meets the WP usage, and the term is linked to that definition clearly, then it would be properly used in any case. Further, if a source uses the term cult, then such usage, as referenced, is also proper. Collect (talk) 15:37, 14 November 2008 (UTC)
Unorthodox from whose point of view? Are Christians unorthodox by Muslim values, and vice versa? Are Buddhists unorthodox? If they are, what is the point of saying so? They are Buddhists. Your other points -- I would deny that Prem Rawat's following was encouraged to have the kind of beliefs that are generally regarded as "religious." No codes of behaviour, except voluntary ones, no belief in an afterlife (or pre-life), no peculiar clothes, no claims of a special status or being "saved", etc. The belief has only been in the effectiveness of the techniques of inner knowledge. The group certainly does not have a "high degree of tension with the surrounding society." Premies come from all walks of life, and their colleagues most likely do not know they practise the techniques. (Mine never have.) It fails on most counts. If including the word cult tells us something important about Prem Rawat and his movement, let's do so. Personally, I am not convinced yet. Rumiton (talk) 16:17, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

From the list of references for this article:

  • Barrett, David V. (2001). The new believers : a survey of sects, cults, and alternative religions. London; New York, NY: Cassell ; Distributed in the United States by Sterling Pub.. ISBN 0304355925 9780304355921 1844030407 9781844030408.
  • Beit-Hallahmi, Benjamin (1993). The illustrated encyclopedia of active new religions, sects, and cults. New York: Rosen Pub. Group. ISBN 0823915050 : 9780823915057.
  • Galanter, Marc (1999). Cults: Faith, Healing and Coercion. New York: Oxford University Press. ISBN 0195123697 9780195123692 0195123700 9780195123708.
  • Levine, Saul V. in Galanter, Marc (1989). Cults and New Religious Movements: A Report of the American Psychiatric Association. American Psychiatric Pub., Inc. ISBN 0890422125.
  • Lewis, James; NetLibrary, Inc. (1998a). Cults in America a reference handbook. Santa Barbara Calif.: ABC-CLIO. ISBN 9780585058436.
  • Lewis, James R. (1998b). The encyclopedia of cults, sects, and new religions. Amherst, N.Y.: Prometheus Books. ISBN 1573922226 9781573922227.
  • Melton, J. Gordon; Robert L. Moore (1982). The cult experience : responding to the new religious pluralism. New York: Pilgrim Press. ISBN 0829806199 : 9780829806199.
  • Melton, J. Gordon. (1986). The encyclopedic handbook of cults in America, Garland reference library of social science, v. 213. New York: Garland Pub.. ISBN 0824090365 9780824090364.
  • Petersen, William J. (1982-12). Those Curious New Cults in the 80's, Revised, Keats Pub, 307. ISBN 0879833173.
  • And so on. See also: Talk:Prem Rawat/Leader of

The word "cult" has been used by numerous scholars in a descriptive manner. WP:WTA deals with how Misplaced Pages refers to article subjects; it does not censor us from discussing what terms others have used. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 20:38, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

"Whatever the movement, Rawat is not its leader"

Is this really a contention? Does anyone here assert that Prem Rawat is not the leader of his followers, or at least wasn't in years past? There are many sources that talk about "his" movement, or describe him as its leader or head. This university newspaper correction isn't a sufficient source on its own. If that's all we have then it hardly seem worth mentioning. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 08:00, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

"Playful and pontifical"

  • Late September 1973, Rawat was described as playful and pontifical in the Great Bend Tribune.

That long article says many things about Rawat. Why are we mentioning these two adjectives? What's the point? ·:· Will Beback ·:· 11:18, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

If there's no reason for these two words beig in the article, I'll delete the sentence. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 05:42, 15 November 2008 (UTC)
Seeing no exaplanation, I'll remove it. That said, the Carter article is a good source with many facts about the subject and the DLM. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 00:08, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

Religious Followers are not reliable sources

It is absurd that internet articles written by religious followers are being considered as legitimate sources. Do we take historical facts about Jesus from random internet websites written by Christian's or do we take the historians perspective who has been vetted by other academics. It is clear that this man is a cult leader and this is being completely under represented in this article. This article has been clearly hijacked by followers of this mans cult to make him look a little more holy than the man actually is. Jesus does not even receive this kind of bias treatment on wikipedia this cult leader should definitely not either. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 97.94.117.116 (talk) 23:25, 6 November 2008 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages has policies and guidelines covering which sources are suitable, WP:V and WP:RS. Internet articles published by the subject's movement are considered self-published sources and are allowable for limited use, in particular for non-controversial statements that aren't unduly self-promotional. I believe that the article complies with the relevant policies in that respect, but the article changes so it needs to be monitored.
As for your second point, about the subject being a cult leader, that is a significant point of view and Misplaced Pages's neutrality policy requires that we include it. The article does say, under "Media response", Rawat has been termed a cult leader in popular press reports, and anti-cult writings. How much weight and prominence we give that assertion depends on a combination of the number and importance of sources that make the assertion, and of the agreement among editors here. If you'd like to participate in that discussion you're welcome to join us. I suggest registering a user name. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 23:37, 6 November 2008 (UTC)
Clearly those policies are not being followed when it comes to this article. They are not used in limited use they are used throughout the article to make this well known cult figure and con artist look like a hero. They are completely self promotional because they are members of his cult. Telling members of your own cult to write articles about you and having Misplaced Pages staff such as Jossi to protect the article is self promotional and wrong.
Cult leader is not included in the article and to be neutral it should be included in the start of the article not hidden deep inside so you have to ravage through propaganda to find the truth. It should be laid out clearly in the opening that he is a well known cult leader but some people do follow him. I don't think anyone with a rational mind and an understanding of modern science would believe this man is anything other than a con artist and not a god as he claims and this article attempts to prove. This is giant wank off on this guy the likes of Christianity doesn't even recieve. Why would I want to join your organization when you help breed ignorance and give cult members such high power such as "This administrator, Jossi Fresco, is a longtime student of Prem Rawat - formerly Guru Maharaj Ji - the India-born spiritual leader who styled himself as the "Perfect Master" and fostered a worldwide religious movement encouraging followers to call him "Lord of the Universe."

Jossi Fresco openly acknowledges he's employed by an organization "related" to Prem Rawat, and according to an ex-Rawat-follower and former friend, he served on the guru's personal staff and built the guru's first web site. Nonetheless, Fresco maintains strict control over Misplaced Pages’s Prem Rawat article and countless related articles, keeping criticism of his guru to a bare minimum." This is a sham of a encyclopedia and I would have no part in it. That is why actual scientist and respected authors are creating their own because this place is falling apart. http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/02/06/the_cult_of_wikipedia/ —Preceding unsigned comment added by 97.94.117.116 (talk) 23:52, 6 November 2008 (UTC)

Jossi removed some cited content here, along with the citation itself, which appears to be a reliable source. I'll wait for an explanation before I do anything else besides readding it. Cla68 (talk) 01:36, 10 November 2008 (UTC)
Why are unsigned denigratory comments accepted here without removal? Somone who does not dare to stand for what he says does not deserve to have his comments here. Sounds like a certain brand of ex-premies. Like we say in Spanish, "throws the stone and hides the hand". I cannot understand it. If any person really had full control on Prem's biography I would never think he is a follower--Pedrero (talk) 02:45, 16 November 2008 (UTC)
Very few editors sign their real names. Some editors don't have accounts at all and so they just use their IP addresses. While we call those users "anons", they may actually be less anonymous because their IP addresses can often be tracked. The only thing that's forbidden is using multiple accounts to edit the same topic, or using usernames that are offensive or misleading. Otherwise it's pretty much OK to sign your posts as you like. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 02:51, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

Unclear sentence

Scholars refer to activist in the anti-cult movement as not making distinctions between Guru Maharaji and others.

Can someone explain what this means or upgrade the language so that it becomes clear? Tx. --Francis Schonken (talk) 20:28, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

Comment

Why is an employee of the subject in question who works for his public relations section in some capacity (he made the guys first website) the biggest contributor to this article? It seems like an absurd conflict of interest, redoubled by the lack of anything resembling a critique on the article page.

Doesn't anyone else thing is quite bizarre?Cthulhu Dreams (talk) 05:17, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

Not unless every editor submits a sworn statement that they do not have any religious or spiritual beliefs and is not atheist or agnostic.Momento (talk) 22:52, 14 November 2008 (UTC)
This isn't the place to discuss individual editors. But the matter above seems to concern the issue of employment rather than faith. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 23:11, 14 November 2008 (UTC)
If accurate, and I hope it is not, the issue of COI is paramount and might have to be addressed sooner than later. WP appears to strongly disapprove of an employee of someone editing the article on that person. Collect (talk) 23:22, 14 November 2008 (UTC)
This issue has been addressed ad nauseum for the past several years. Check the archives. As a result, I suspect Jossi might be the last person ever to self-declare a conflict of interest on Misplaced Pages. Rumiton (talk) 01:43, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

Does Misplaced Pages discriminate?

All religions and spiritual movements started being considered sects or cults by previous religions, including Christians, etc. No one started with millions, that came long after masters or leaders died. Why are there not similar "cult" or "sect" remarks in all other biographies of religious and spiritual leaders and movements?

All masters, true or false, lived without working, preaching was their job. There is no proof that Jesus worked as a carpenter until he was 30, that is just how we have tried to fill the inexplicable silence of the gospels on most of his life. All masters have lived from the "payments" of their followers, including Jesus, etc. Prem Rawat may be the first or one of the few to be financially independent. Why are there not similar remarks on "payments" in all other biographies of religious and spiritual leaders? --Pedrero (talk) 21:56, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

This isn't a discussion forum. No discrimination is going on surrounding this topic. There are discussion forums available for you to join if you want to have discussions with other premies. See Chatanand. There are also many blogs you can read that are written by adherents of Prem Rawat which give you the chance to comment if you want. Just do a Google Blog search and plug in "Maharaji." You'll find plenty of premies to contact and converse with. There's no discrimination happening here because as Maharaji always says, as well as his organizations' FAQ state, practicing Knowledge and following him is compatible with, but not a spiritual practice, philosophy, life-style or religion. Therefore, your complaints about discrimination are unfounded. Best wishes. Sylviecyn (talk) 22:50, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

References (please keep this section at the bottom of the page)

  1. "The Keys, by Maharaji".
  2. "Maharaji in North America".
  3. Callinan, Rory. "Cult Leader Jets In to Recruit New Believers: Millionaire cult leader Maharaj Ji is holding a secret session west of Brisbane this weekend" in Brisbane Courier-Mail. September 20, 1997
  4. Mendick, Robert. "Cult leader gives cash to Lord Mayor appeal" in Evening Standard. London, 2007-05-31, p. 4. At HighBeam Research
  5. Rhodes, Ron The Challenge of the Cults and New Religions: The Essential Guide to Their History, Their Doctrine, and Our Response, Ch. 1: Defining Cults. Zondervan, 2001, ISBN 0310232171, p. 32.
  6. Price 1979
  7. ^ "Correction" in The Daily Californian. May 1, 2003.
  8. Stoner and Parke 1977, p. 77
  9. Barret 2003, p.65
  10. Downton 1979: "...Changes in terminology were made in an attempt to divorce the Mission from its Indian trappings..."
  11. Price 1979
  12. "Maharaj Ji" in The Houghton Mifflin Dictionary of Biography. U.S., 2003, ISBN 061825210X, p. 994
  13. Melton 1986
  14. Price 1979
  15. Army Pamphlet 165-13 1978
  16. Melton et al 1993
  17. Kilbourne, Brok & Richardson, James T. Cultphobia, Thought 61, 258-266; as cited in Ralph W. Neighbour Jr; Spilka, Bernard; Bruce Hunsberger; Gorsuch, Richard L. (2003). The Psychology of Religion, Third Edition: An Empirical Approach. New York: The Guilford Press. pp. p.401. ISBN 1-57230-901-6. {{cite book}}: |pages= has extra text (help)CS1 maint: multiple names: authors list (link)
  18. Kilbourne, Brok & Richardson, James T. Cultphobia, Thought 61, 258-266; as cited in Ralph W. Neighbour Jr; Spilka, Bernard; Bruce Hunsberger; Gorsuch, Richard L. (2003). The Psychology of Religion, Third Edition: An Empirical Approach. New York: The Guilford Press. pp. p.401. ISBN 1-57230-901-6. {{cite book}}: |pages= has extra text (help)CS1 maint: multiple names: authors list (link)
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