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An entry from Scientology and sex appeared on Misplaced Pages's Main Page in the Did you know? column on 19 May, 2007.

[REDACTED]

Reuters reports on Scientology, sex, and the "second dynamic"

Scientologists say they recognize marriage as a part of the second of the eight dynamics of existence. The second dynamic includes all creative activity, including sex, procreating and the raising of children.

• Reuters (November 18, 2006). "What is a Scientology wedding?: TomKat nuptials bring renewed focus to controversial religious sect". MSNBC. NBC. Retrieved 2008-11-27. {{cite news}}: |last= has generic name (help)

Cirt (talk) 17:27, 27 November 2008 (UTC)

Primary source content

Cirt, you had argued at the AfD for pruning back the primary-source content. At the moment, there are still a number of paragraphs sourced only to Hubbard. Shouldn't we take those out now? Jayen466 14:11, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

No. I think they are valid and are good complements at this point to the secondary sources. Prune/copyedit/trim, perhaps in places. Remove whole entire paragraphs? Disagree. Cirt (talk) 14:12, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

Would you like to do the trimming then that you deem appropriate? Otherwise I am not sure what to make of your comment in the AfD. Jayen466 14:15, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

Again, to reiterate: Prune/trim? Yes. I never suggested removing whole entire paragraphs in that comment. Cirt (talk) 14:17, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

I will list some problems that I see: The second lede para is based exclusively on a primary source, which is not referred to again in the main article. Assertions like the decree being "controversial", a "key teaching" etc. are unsourced. The lede does not summarise the article. Jayen466 14:30, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

The lermanet page "Scientology's Questionable Policies on Rape and Public Relations" (currently ref 8) is a WP:SPS page from an avowed anti-Scientology site. I don't think use of this page as a source is appropriate. Jayen466 14:33, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

The Gene Zimmer "Alteration of Scientology Materials Report" (ref 4) does not have publication data. Is that an RS? Jayen466 14:35, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

The entire section "Tone Scale and "Know to Sex" scale" is sourced to primary sources. If we can't find secondary sources discussing this, I am in favour of dropping it. Jayen466 14:38, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

Most of the first para in the Promiscuity section is primary-sourced. The second para is primary-sourced, as well, but luckily this can be fixed. Siker quotes the same policy letter on page 91: Jayen466 14:42, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

The parts of "Abuse your Illusions" that we cite (by Russell Krick, published by The Disinformation Company, ) are from a fictionalised account. While it claims to be based on the actual "case history of a friend", I think we would be better off seeking corroboration in a more reliable source. (Note that the second source given, "One Hand Jerking", is another book featuring the exact same fictional account.) Jayen466 15:10, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

Similar to the fictionalized account of the Jason Scott case by Anson Shupe ? Cirt (talk) 15:18, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

Some or all of these questions are quoted in the Anderson report. While that too is a primary source, its preceived factual reliability would be an improvement. Jayen466 21:09, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

This source does not actually say in so many words that "Scientology Sex Scandal" was "one of the more popular articles in Australian publishing in 2007", as our article states; the source merely describes it as one of a "slew of blaring headlines" in one of the "celebrity gossip weeklies". I doubt we'll ever be in agreement on the status of women's mags of this type as reliable encyclopedic sources. :-) Jayen466 15:29, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

The title of that article is "Selling off the rack". Also from the article: "A survey of the best-selling magazines of 2007 ..." Cirt (talk) 15:35, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

We could say, The article, which discussed the relationship of Tom Cruise and Katie Holmes, featured one of the more notable headlines in celebrity gossip weeklies in 2007, being entitled "Scientology Sex Scandal". Jayen466 16:04, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

 Done. Cirt (talk) 16:13, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

Re the use of primary sources: I am fully in agreement with you, and have said so in the past, that Scientology, as well as related Beliefs and Practices articles, should not quote from Scientology websites or books (unless these are sections that reliable secondary sources have seen fit to quote verbatim). To that extent, I am fully behind what Spidern has done in these articles. But the same thing then also applies to articles like this present one. If we're telling Scientologists they can't pick and quote "the good bits", but have to restrict themselves to what secondary sources have covered, then we can't pick and quote "the bad bits", but should likewise stick to what reliable secondary sources have discussed. I think this is a way forward that would benefit article quality in the long run. Jayen466 16:04, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

For the most part generally speaking, I agree. However for specific subsections in this article would like to wait to hear what others think. Cirt (talk) 16:13, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

• Comment - Paragraphs and sections based solely on primary sources are original research and should be removed. A responsible secondary source would do the work to fit the primary material into context and relative importance. A good example is the Pain and Sex bulletin, which in my experience as a Scientologist, is little more than a curiosity. Without a secondary source to put that in perspective we have little more here than the common Scientology critic ploy of picking alarming material from Hubbard out-of-context and holding it up to ridicule. Let's pare this down to those areas covered in secondary sources and perhaps a bit of primary material that corresponds. --Justallofthem (talk) 18:52, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

• And if we are to be doing OR here then let's not forget a VERY important policy, Second Dynamic Rules, which states that a person's sexual activity is NOT a concern for the Church. That needs to be in the lead. --Justallofthem (talk) 19:00, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

Pretty sure there is good coverage of Pain and Sex in secondary sources, will do some research into that. Cirt (talk) 19:05, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

Now is as good a time as any to add such content yourself (provided it is well-sourced). I would also invite you to find some secondary sources for Scientology beliefs and practices, which is in a similar state. ←Spidern→ 19:07, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

I think it would be a good idea to add the 2nd Dynamic Rules to the lede. They seem to be the basis of the practical laissez-faire approach espoused by the church today, so they're of fundamental practical importance to individual Scientologists. Jayen466 21:18, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

Discussion of content in subsection: Scientology sex classes and counseling

What a piece of dreck the below bit is:

In 2007, New Idea reported that Scientology has "sex lessons" which can be given to couples looking to educate themselves to have "better sex". This guide studies their sex life and suggests ways for the couple to improve upon their activities. The article, titled: "Scientology Sex Scandal", which discussed the relationship of Tom Cruise and Katie Holmes, was one of the more notable headlines in Australian celebrity gossip weeklies in 2007.

Let's count the POV-driven errors:

1. The source article is MAGWATCH, which appears to be a column about gossip mags. This article is entitled "A ring of truth, but only about the lies (emphasis added)" which should give any editor pause before quoting from it.
2. Here is what it says:

   New Idea announces Tom and Katie's "scientology sex scandal". For some bizarre reason, the couple are reportedly taking "sex lessons" so they can learn to have "better sex". "Tom and Katie will have to share every detail of their sex life with an adviser, 'an intimate relationship guide', who will analyse their lovemaking and suggest improvements."

   So this is clearly about Tom and Kate, not about Scientology in general. Yet the editor here engaged in WP:OR generalization to invent that "Scientology has "sex lessons" which can be given to couples".
3. Now seeing as we now do that the bit is about Tom and Kate, a responsible editor might want to consider WP:BLP and think carefully about the quality of the sourcing.
4. Finally, a responsible editor might want to see if there is any other reliable source that mentions Scientologists taking "sex lessons". There is not and there are no such in Scientology. So an editor here just used terrible sourcing and outright original opinion to create a fiction about Scientology.
5. Oh, and calling it "one of the more notable headlines" is a definite reach. The article simply calls it one of "a slew of blaring headlines" about Katie that indicate that she is popular fodder for the gossip mags.

Personally I think any editor that would engage in the above is a ripe target for a topic ban as they obviously cannot control their POV and I am interested in input as to whether we should propose such a ban on the WP:AE page. --Justallofthem (talk) 18:02, 2 December 2008 (UTC)

This is information backed up to multiple sources not just one, and your attempt at biased POV spin and attack on an individual editor instead of discussing the content itself and coming to a consensus on the talk page - or even before engaging in any sort of dispute resolution on the talk page such as content RFC on the content you disagree with, or even WP:RSN on a specific source you disagree with, is nonconstructive and indicative of a disruptive problem. Cirt (talk) 18:20, 2 December 2008 (UTC)

Personally I think the happy inclusion of such material is the real problem here as it demonstrates extremely poor judgment. Much poorer judgment than anything that I have seen from Shutterbug. Yet you and others had no problem attacking her and proposing topic ban. --Justallofthem (talk) 18:36, 2 December 2008 (UTC)

I agree with Justallofthem. Jayen466 18:38, 2 December 2008 (UTC)

I did not initially propose the topic ban, though I support it. The topic ban is due to disruptive editing plus WP:COI from the organization Church of Scientology and its computers in Los Angeles. Again, this is a separate matter and for further community input on content issues - WP:RFC-content is the way to go. For further community input on sourcing issues - WP:RSN is the way to go. Cirt (talk) 18:39, 2 December 2008 (UTC)

(left) I made five (5) very salient points pointing up gross errors on that bit including WP:OR and WP:BLP violations, two of our most-important policies. You did not bother to address any of them but instead happily reinserted the offending material. There is something very wrong there. And I can point at plenty of previous cases where you acted in the same irresponsible manner. --Justallofthem (talk) 18:45, 2 December 2008 (UTC)

Here is the history of the paragraph: Cirt inserted it, then Cirt and I discussed it above. I had failed to notice, until Justallofthem pointed it out, that the source made a statement on Cruise and Holmes, rather than a general statement about Scientology. Apart from that, I have expressed elsewhere my concern over our quoting celebrity weeklies as encyclopedic sources. This section was very poorly sourced. I expressed similar concerns over other sources used in this article above. Jayen466 19:02, 2 December 2008 (UTC)

If we were to hold a content RFC on this issue I would of course defer to community consensus on the matter. Until such time, I see that there are questions about this material and will continue to invite others to discuss, I posted a note to WP:SCN so hopefully we will bring in some other previously uninvolved editors on this article. Again, this is something that was not simply discussed in one source, but multiple others as well. Cirt (talk) 19:10, 2 December 2008 (UTC)

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