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Categorise this subject

Can anyone help. I don't know how to categorise this subject. I know how to categorise a person, but not an historical incident.

Thanks Lisa Irwin 22:47, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

I gave you a few, please check and ensure they are correct. --ArmadilloFromHell 23:49, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

Article name

I would like to know who invented the title "Dunmanway Massacre". This phrase, on an examination of the facts, is not the case. Only three of the victims mentioned in the article were killed in Dunmanway - the remainder lived several miles away. - JohnM

What name do you suggest the article should be called?--Vintagekits 10:56, 15 April 2007 (UT

The article should be titled in a more accurate way i.e. Cork, West Cork. The present title plays into the hands of those who claim that there are so many inaccuracies in Misplaced Pages as to render it useless as a tool of reference.

JohnM

> > > > I write with reference to the following article > http://en.wikipedia.org/Dunmanway_Massacre. This title is > misleading and even slanderous and there is a factual error in it. > The title gives the impression that the murders were committed in > Dunmanway. If you read the article you will find that of the 13 > victims (not 10 as mentioned), three were killed in the town of > Dunmanway > > > > David Gray Dunmanway > > Francis Fitzmaurice Dunmanway > > James Buttimer Dunmanway > > > > The remainder > > > > Thomas Hornibrook Bandon 27 kms > > Samuel Hornibrook Bandon ditto > > Samuel Woods Bandon ditto > > Robert Howe Ballaghamine 12 kms > > John Cheminey Ballaghamine ditto > > Alexander McKinley Ballineen 11 kms > > John Buttimer Caher 8 kms > > Robert Harbord Caher ditto > > Robert Nagle Clonakilty 20 kms > > John Bradford Killowen 21 kms > > > > I believe the article should be entitled something like The > Protestant Massacre or West Cork Massacre. The present title is > erroneous and gives credence to the people who preach that Misplaced Pages > is not a dependable source of information. Incidentally I have > attempted to edit the entry but it is always changed. It is the same > with the article http://en.wikipedia.org/Dunmanway, where the > name of the murdered priest was not Father Magnier but Canon Magner > (go into the cemetery in front of St Patrick's Church and his tomb is > hallways along on the left hand side.

> > > > Yours sincerely > > > > > > John Murphy > > Le Vinaigre > > 24560 Bouniagues > > France > >

There is nothing slanderous in this article, perhaps you could explain who you believe is being slandered?

I assume you are referring to this edit. The name in the lead has to reflect the name of the article, therefore it stays as "Dunmanway Massacre" unless the page name is changed as well. Your attempt to introduce an unsourced claim of 13 victims was correctly reverted, according to the article the victims were:

1. David Gray
2. Francis Fitzmaurice
3. James Buttimer
4. Robert Howe
5. John Chinnery
6. Alexander McKinley
7. Robert Harbord
8. John Buttimer
9. Jim Greenfield
10. John Bradfield

Robert Nagle is not named as being killed merely shot, so that equals 10 not the figure of 13 you attempted to introduce into the article. One Night In Hackney₃₀₃ 08:49, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

Where are the Hornibrooks and Woods "Capt Woods, Thomas Hornibrook and his son Samuel went missing, unaccounted for, and in time presumed killed" If these killings took place in the same week (see article) why are they not included?

See this article from The New Statesmen, which gives the figure of ten and the name "Dunmanway massacre". Ten is the confirmed number, although we can include the information about the others it's only speculation, for all we know they could have (as the Wolfe Tones would put it) "like lightning ran from the rifles of the IRA". One Night In Hackney₃₀₃ 08:45, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

Although I read The New Statesman each week, I am afraid that i give it as much credence in some of its articles of as I do to The Daily Mail, when writing about Tony Blair. Witness to apology to the lastest John Pilger article. My objection to the article on the Dunmanway massacres is not that Protestants were murdered but that it happened in the Dunmanway area. This, in my opinion, is geographically inaccurate. Incidentally an article in The Sunday Independent last summer (google it) focussed on the Bandon murders. JM

The lead makes it quite clear that it happened in the general area, not in Dunmanway itself. The article is not geographically inaccurate, as it uses a sourced term for the name in a similar way to the Hungerford massacre article. Perhaps this should be changed to "Massacre in and around Dunmanway" and that should be changed "Massacre in and around Hungerford"? One Night In Hackney₃₀₃ 07:56, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

Number killed

I changed the number back to ten, per the sourse. --Domer48_'fenian' 19:52, 11 January 2009 (UTC)

"nope, 3 in Hornibrook's home and 11 next day" and yet the article says "Meda Ryan has concluded that this was 'exaggerated' and that, 'definite records are not available to confirm their deaths'." So were is the new sourse for this information? The source says 10, and that missing does not equal dead, so unless its supported with a reference I'll change it back to the referenced version? --Domer48_'fenian' 20:00, 11 January 2009 (UTC)

First of all, lets acknowledge that Ryan is not exactly a neutral source. And anyway she was referring to the size of the IRA party, not what happened to the Hornibrooks. But leaving that aside, I was simply counting the nuber of dead reported in the article. 3 in Hornibrook's home and 11 next day. I think it is a little disingenuos to say that the 3 in Hornibrooks house were not killed. They were abducted by armed men and never seen again. The fact that they were disappeared in this way is a pretty good indication that they were killed. I could live with a a figure of 10-14 however, if this is noted in the article.

For the record, this source says 13 http://www.dcu.ie/~foxs/irhist/April%201922%20-%2026-28%20-%20dunmanway_massacre.htm. The extra one seeds to be Robert Nagle, who was shot but not confired killedJdorney (talk) 13:44, 12 January 2009 (UTC)

Jdorney your right, lets stick to what we know. Tim Pat Coogan says 10. I've added the additional reference plus text and updated the Meda Ryan References. I removed some unsoursed text, and if I find a reference will add it back. --Domer48_'fenian' 14:09, 12 January 2009 (UTC)

Yes and we know, the 3 in Hornibrook's home went missing presumed killed, never to be seen again and the text should acknowledge that.Jdorney (talk) 15:57, 12 January 2009 (UTC)

Jdorney the text does acknowledge that; "Some days later Capt Woods, Thomas Hornibrook and his son Samuel went missing, and in time were presumed killed. The Morning Post newspaper reported that, 'about 100' IRA men surrounded the house and smashed in the door', but historian Meda Ryan has concluded that this was 'exaggerated' and that, 'definite records are not available to confirm their deaths'. Hornibrooke's house was burned some time after the incident." Now I placed a tag beside the names, because we need to know who the ten are according to Ryan and Coogan. 3 were killed in Dunmanway and 7 outside the area according to Ryan. I'll have a go later at referencing this. Thanks, --Domer48_'fenian' 16:06, 12 January 2009 (UTC)

Domer, first of all, there's no reason at all to label the DCU source dubious.

Secondly, while ten others were shot in around Dunmanway, don't you think its reasonable to assume that the two Hornibrookes and Woods were abducted and killed?

There are in fact several sources which report that their house and besieged and they were shot and then "disappeared". In the DCU chronology page which gives as sources Peter Hart, (The IRA and its Enemies) and Dorothy Macardle (The Irish Republic (book), this version is reported. For this reason I can't see the objection to stating that some sources report 13 as opposed to ten killed.

All that Meda Ryan (in what is a self confessedly pro-republican book) says is that she couldn't find documents to absolutely confirm that this had happened. Have you read this book? If not, find it and read the relevant passage.While this book (Tom Barry - IRA Freedom Fighter) has good detail, it is not necessarily to be preferred to the rest of the sources. Jdorney (talk) 22:12, 12 January 2009 (UTC)

Jdorney are you serious? Please support your view of Meda Ryan ("in what is a self confessedly pro-republican book")citing someone other than yourself. The reason I ask is as far as sources go, you can't get much more discredited than Peter Hart and if you wish I can support that view. Yes I've read the book, and as far as Meda Ryan's gose, at the very lest her sources can be trusted unlike Hart. The {dubious} tag is correct and the source you have used falls well short of the mark in my opinion. Thanks --Domer48_'fenian' 22:44, 12 January 2009 (UTC)

Yes I'm serious! Are you saying, having read Ryan's book, that it does not have a republican slant? I'm sure Meda Ryan herself would agree that it does. And this is not a criticism by the way, all historians have their biases. Re Hart, yes there are some problems surrounding his reliability on some points (the Kilmichael ambush in particular), but that doesn't mean that everything he has written can be dismissed here on wp. I don't know why you think the DCU compiled chronology (which is carefully sourced) is dubious, can you explain?

Regardless, all I'm asking for in the article is that it says that it includes the presumed deaths of the Hornibrooks and Woods. That's it. Ryan does not say this didn't happen, just that she can't confirm it. Others have reported otherwise. What is the objection to the article reflecting this? Jdorney (talk) 22:17, 13 January 2009 (UTC)

By the way, you can read Hart's version here (albeit missing some pages). Make up your own mind. And while I'm at it, a republican publication's review which acknowledge Ryan's nationalist/republican sympathies Jdorney (talk) 22:43, 13 January 2009 (UTC)

Jdorney can we agree to stick to what we know, and not lend spin into this discussion. "I don't know why you think the DCU compiled chronology (which is carefully sourced) is dubious, can you explain?" Let me explain why I consider the source dubious. First it is not a DCU compiled chronology, it is complied by Seamus Fox. Seamus Fox isn't a recognised authority in Irish history, it seems it is his hobby. As such it's a self published source. Secondly, your comment on the chronology "(which is carefully sourced)" according to you, is based on two authors, Dorothy Macardle’s, The Irish Republic and Peter Hart’s, The IRA and its Enemies: Violence and Community in Cork, 1916-1923. Knowing as you do, there is a major problem with Hart, and this particular publication how can you suggest that it is carefully sourced. I would use Meda Ryan’s book which you mention above to support this, were she details the problems with Hart’s novel uses of sources. In addition to this I would suggest you read Troubled History, by Brian P Murphy osb and Niall Meehan published on the 10th anniversary of Hart’s book offering a very detailed critique. I hope that explains my reasons for questioning the source and suggesting that it is dubious.

In the book by Hart, cited in the references you use, we now know a number of things. On his references; he interviewed dead people, that is, the people he said he interviewed were already dead at the time the interviews were said to have occurred. He omitted well publicised southern Protestant sources because they undermined his argument. He partially quoted some sources because to quote the full text would have undermined his argument. Now while Hart claims that the British military records are the most trustworthy, even here he had to omit sections of their reports, particularly their attitudes to the people and the number of informers they had and were they were based (Bandon).

Now we know from the “The Dunmanway Find of Informers Dossier” that those shot were informers. We know one son was shot instead of his father and one man was shot instead of his brother, and this could have been mistaken identity. Should this information not also be included, because in my opinion “Protestant civilians” in the Lead could be misleading? In addition, should we not also be including some of the statements from the southern Protestants who commented on the killings? I would also suggest we replace the Seamus Fox reference? Thanks --Domer48_'fenian' 21:16, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

The issues with the dead interviewees are pretty serious, agreed, but they are about he Kilmichael ambush. Admittedly if Hart did falsify sources this throws his general reliabiliy into question. In any case what about Dorothy Macardle? She can hardly be accused of pro-British biases? Seamus Fox compiled a chronology which is, as I said, carefully sourced. He lists the sources for each incident he logs, so I don't see why it should be removed.

Basically I'm happy with what the article says now. Ten dead, three disappeared. Re the final point, I don't accept that the civilians reference should be removed. First of all, if they were giving information to the British, they were still civilians and not combatants. Secondly, this incident occurred nine moths after the truce and three months after the Auxiliaries evacuation of their bases in Cork. So by April 1922 they were not informers but ex-informers. Jdorney (talk) 13:57, 15 January 2009 (UTC)

Seamus Fox used Hart as his source, accepting none of the numerous challenges to his credibility. If he had, this would be reflected in a carefully sourced chronology and Seamus Fox chronology is still a self published source. Now it is not a case of if they were giving information, they were and it should be noted. I’ve added some references and additional text. On the references, I’ve changed the format and included a book list. I’ve removed superfluous external links which had little or nothing to do with the article, focused mainly on criticism of Hart’s book. --Domer48_'fenian' 17:01, 15 January 2009 (UTC)

The last edit has taken Ryan's analysis at face value and omitted other criticism, therefore tag added. Dorney, your opinion here would be valued Kernel Saunters (talk) 17:10, 15 January 2009 (UTC)

Kernel Saunters please tell me were I have omitted other criticism, thanks --Domer48_'fenian' 18:51, 15 January 2009 (UTC)

I can't live with that edit I'm afraid. First, it seems to justify the killing of the ten. They were informers and they damaged the IRA, therefore they were legitimate targets. First of all, we don't know this is why they were targeted, Ryan found evidence that they were informers, Hart disagrees. In either case, it seems the Hornibrooke affair sparked the incident.

Now I realise there are problems with Hart, but are not in the business here on wp of taking sides in historographical disputes. Hart, I have to stress, is taken seriously by other historians and is widely quoted in the modern literature of the period 9See Michael Hopkinson's Irish War of Independence for instance). We can't just dismiss his work. The other point, I repeat, is that they were ex-informers ( ie the war was over), so they were not, by the IRA's owen standards, legitimate targets. This, one way or the other, was a revenge attack.

Secondly, The info about the robberies the same day has been removed. The reason this is relevant because Arthur Griffith mentions it in his quote. If we're going to have the quote, then we have to have the explanation. Secondly it contextualises the incidient, ie elements of the IRA were doing what they wanted in the absence of central control.

I don't want to edit war, but I ahve to revert that edit pendinga consensus Jdorney (talk) 22:55, 15 January 2009 (UTC)

Jdorney with all due respect, "I can't live with that edit I'm afraid" is just not good enough. Which edit can you not live with? My work on the references? My removal of the external links? Could it be the additional text I added, which is of course referenced? In your opinion, "it seems to justify the killing of the ten"! I afraid that is not a reason to remove the text. Did I present the information out of context? Is the information not supported by the source? If Hart disagrees, then add that, he disagrees and add the reference? Were on the article have I dismiss his work?

"they were ex-informers ( ie the war was over), so they were not, by the IRA's owen standards, legitimate targets. This, one way or the other, was a revenge attack." Do you want to support that with a reference, or is it just your opinion? What did the robberies have to do with the killings? In addition "Taken together with the killings at Dunmamway, this indicates the degree to which IRA units on the ground were out of the control of civilian authorities in the months leading up to the outbreak of civil war" sounds a lot like WP:OR to me. So, based on the above your revert was based on your opinion and nothing more? Now you don't need consensus for the edits I made, but you can use the talk page? --Domer48_'fenian' 23:14, 15 January 2009 (UTC)

Y'know Domer, I explained my reasons on each of those points in pretty good detail. Have a read then we'll talk. And drop the sarcastic tone. Cheers.Jdorney (talk) 23:55, 15 January 2009 (UTC)

Jdorney I'd have to disagree. "First, it seems to justify the killing of the ten. They were informers and they damaged the IRA, therefore they were legitimate targets." That is just your opinion, and your are adding your synthesis of the information to draw a conclusion.

"First of all, we don't know this is why they were targeted, Ryan found evidence that they were informers, Hart disagrees." Again, your synthesis of the information, because no one has said thats why they were targeted. Ryan found evidence that they were informers, yes that is a fact supported by the “The Dunmanway Find of Informers Dossier” and no Hart dose not disagree.

"Now I realise there are problems with Hart, but are not in the business here on wp of taking sides in historographical disputes." I agree, yet you remove all reference to the facts that they were informers? "We can't just dismiss his work. " Were has his work been dismissed? You in fact dismiss Meda Ryan's work.

"Secondly, The info about the robberies the same day has been removed. The reason this is relevant because Arthur Griffith mentions it in his quote. If we're going to have the quote, then we have to have the explanation. Secondly it contextualises the incidient, ie elements of the IRA were doing what they wanted in the absence of central control." What has the robberies got to do with the killings? Arthur Griffith condems the killings, thats why its used. The final point is the real kicker, you say it contextualises the incidient and yet remove the fact they were all known informers.

None of Meda Ryan's information has been challanged. None of Hart's information has been removed. Ryan's information is supported by facts, and Hart's is and has been discredited. Should Hart's information be in the article, yes, if it has been challanged that should also be included. "I explained my reasons on each of those points in pretty good detail." I disagree, and have illustrated how your objections are based on your own opinions. If the information of Ryan's has been challanged then include it. Now cite Hart as a source, and not Seamus Fox because that source is not up to the mark. --Domer48_'fenian' 08:28, 16 January 2009 (UTC)

Article content, the robberies etc

I don't agree Domer (what a surprise Eh?). The informer info is in the next para already. If you want to expand on it there I have no objection.

Here's the problem I have. We have the Hornibrooke incident then we have the details of the shootings. With the added info that those shot were informers. In the current version we don't even have a sentence to connect the two events. The reader would be left with the impression that this was an IRA sanctioned operation against informers. It wasn't. (A) The entire IRA leadership in the area came out against the attacks. (B) The war with the British was over by almost a year. The informers, if that's what they were, were no threat. So it seems fair to point that the attacks were a revenge attack for the killing of Michael O'Neill, otherwise what else sparked them?

Re the robberies, I don't particularly care if they're listed or not. Included the details because Arthur Griffith connected the two in his statement in the Dail, which otherwise the reader is not going to understand.

Events, such as the terrible murders at Dunmanway and the seizure of Customs and Excise at Clonmel, require the exercise of the utmost strength and authority of Dáil Éireann. Dáil Éireann, so far as its powers extend, will uphold, to the fullest extent, the protection of life and property of all classes and sections of the community. It does not know and cannot know, as a National Government, any distinction of class or creed. In its name, I express the horror of the Irish nation at the Dunmanway murders and the reprobation of the unlawful attempt to seize the Customs and Excise of the Irish nation".

It's not my opinion I'm giving, but Griffith's - that the two were the product of out of control IRA units. If we lose the details of the robberies and edit the quote, I don't mind.

Thanks Jdorney for you detailed responce. On the section titled "The killings" I would make the following suggestions; Would you agree that Capt Woods, Thomas Hornibrook and his son Samuel were not shot because they were Protestants? Would you also agree that all three were loyalists? If yes, then I would suggest that reference to Hornibrook's religion is removed and reference to their political views is inserted. This you will agree is easy enough to do because we have the references. All three were connected with the Murragh Loyalist Action Group, and as far as background goes this is important. This explains why Hornibrook refused to give them the car? Can we agree that this information is important for background and context?

On the robberies, I disagree with your opinion that the two events were the product of out of control IRA units. I don't see Griffith's quote supporting this opinion. If you can provide additional referenced information to support this view then please place it up here and we can work it into the text. I also disagree with your suggestion that "the war with the British was over by almost a year." On the 5 April 1922 the British Cabinet decided they would not tolerate the establishment of a republican government, and began to draw up plans to counter this accepting Churchill's "best military line" plan of re-occupation. For references to this read Michael Farrell's Arming the Protestants pages 118-119. To suggest that the British stopped using informers, and that there were no threat is not supportable. --Domer48_'fenian' 10:25, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

I would suggest that the fact that they were Protestants had something to do with them being loyalists in the first place. You don't have to accept the thesis that the war of independence was a sectarian vendetta to recognise that sectarian conflict is part of the story. Mostly in the north but also in places like Cork which had a sizable protestant minority. Basically some Protestants saw it as their duty to be loyal to the union. To republicans this made them the enemy. It's true that the IRA was not intrinsically sectarian because Protestant IRA men did exist, but its also true that it was an overwhelmingly Catholic organisation. And its also true that they tended to subscribe to a view of history in which catholics were the native Irish people and Protestants invaders. For example, Barry tells in Guerrilla Days how his column siezed a {Protestant landlord's house and re-distributed his lands on the grounds that they had been taken from their rightful (Catholic)owners in the Plantations of Ireland.

And regardless, the religion of those killed was widely reported at the time. Jdorney (talk) 13:58, 19 January 2009 (UTC)

Hart v Ryan

Finally re Ryan v Hart. Ryan's informer info comes froma single article in the Southern Star in 1971 by Flor Crowley. She dismisses the contemproary Morning Post report, but doesn't say why except that it's an exagerration. The Morning Post report said that there was a shootout at the Hornibrooke house until the 3 inside ran out of ammunition. they then surrendered, were taken away and shot. In her references (329), Ryan also gives a statement from Matilda Wood, given in 1927, that her husband was drawn and quartered and that the Hornibrookes were made to dig their own graves before being shot. Ryan says that as Matilda Woods was not in Ireland at the time, this has to be disregarded.

Harts' version goes like this, The local IRA beleived that the Hornibrookes were leaders of a loyalist group called the Protestant Action Group and suspected them of the killing of the Coffey brothers of Enniskeane in February 1921. Hart says that, "there is absolutely no evidence that such a conspiracy existed" and that the Protestant community had been, 'notably reticent during the war'. The Hornibrookes were 'outspoken loyalists' which made them enemies ofthe republic, in the eyes of IRA men. O'Neill was seizing their car on this basis. Hart says that, "it was undoubtedley O'Neill's death that sparked the three nights of raids and murders". But he concedes that this has sometimes been denied. The killers were identified by eyewitnesses as local IRA men. He concludes that there up to five seperate groups did the killing, due to their geographic dispersal. He says that they were "acting on their own initiative", but that the IRA garrison in Dunmanway failed to stop them. He concludes, "these men were shot becuae they were Protestants. No Catholic Free Staters landlords or spies were shot or even shot at.(IRA and its Enemies p279-288).

Ryan, in contradiction, quotes Barry's own "Guerrilla days in Ireland", which states that durign the 1919-21 war, the west Cork IRA shot dead 15 informers, 9 Catholics and 6 Protestants (Ryan, Tom Barry, p164).

It seems clear to me that both authors have massaged the facts to bolster thier own arguments. Ryan by dismissing any evidence for the killings being carried out by the IRA or having sectarian motives. Hart by ignoring the existance of protestant republicans and the efforts made to protect civilians in the wake of the massacre.

Jdorney (talk) 19:45, 16 January 2009 (UTC)

Jdorney could I just point to the obvious first and then address the points you make. The simple fact is, Hart is not being used at the moment in this article! There is not one reference attributed to Hart as yet, however we have a reference to Seamus Fox's web cite, and which I don't think can be considered a WP:RS. Could I suggest that you replace the Fox reference with Hart and we take it from there? I will address the points above later today, RL demands some of my time at the minute. Thanks --Domer48_'fenian' 10:39, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

I would certainly agree that the Fox source should be removed and replaced with a better one, he is not a historian and has never been published as one, he lectures in the area of E-Learning and his web site says as much. BigDunc 12:02, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

I brought the Fox source to the Misplaced Pages:Reliable sources/Noticeboard and they agreed that it was not a WP:RS. As per my suggestion above, the sources he cites are or could be considered WP:RS but Fox's site is not. --Domer48_'fenian' 20:45, 20 January 2009 (UTC)

Clarity on 'spying'

I think we need to get the order of events right. The men killed were not spies in April 1922 but some might have been up to July 1921.

1. The IRA were ordered by Southern Command HQ to kill any spies up to noon on 11 July when the Truce came into effect.

2. Thereafter any spies were to be detained and tried. None were, as the British were leaving.

2. Subsequently during the Truce the IRA found evidence that some of the men killed had been hostile to them before July 1921 (as happens in wars).

3. The Treaty was ratified by Jan 1922 (for good or bad). While the R.I.C. were being disbanded in 1922, the IRA were the de facto police force.

4. The raid and killings centered on the Hornibrooks / Dunmanway happened in April 1922, when none of them could still have been spying.

5. Once the matter was over, the IRA justified their actions by calling the men spies.

6. Given the tensions and run-up to the Civil war, nobody was ever charged.

Any better suggestions before I tidy up? I have a source that Daniel Corkery ended up living in the Hornibrooks' house - so perhaps it wasn't burned.Red Hurley 16:20, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

Auxiliaries' intelligence documents

Does anyone know where these are today? I can't find a reference or a chain of possession from 1922. If they don't exist, then quoting from them may have been a convenient form of coverup.Red Hurley 15:11, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

Dispute at List of events named massacres

A minor edit war is taking place as to whether to include this event in the above list article. I have temporarily removed the listing, due to the fact that the list requires multiple reliable sources and the adding editor only provided one. Discussion of this removal (and of the entry in general) should take place at: Talk:List of events named massacres#Disputed Entry - Dunmanway Massacre. Blueboar (talk) 14:23, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

The editor trying to add it is also a sockpuppet of a banned editor, and the info being added is incorrect. One Night In Hackney₃₀₃ 14:25, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

"Central part"?

"The killings at Dunmanway led historian Peter Hart to conclude that sectarian conflict between Catholics and Protestants was a central part of Ireland's war of independence - his findings have been challenged and contradicted by Meda Ryan (2003), Brian Murphy (2006), and John Borgonovo (2007)."

Hart argues (as I read him) that sectarianism was an element; can someone cleverer than me quote where he said it was a "central part" in the war? Otherwise I'll adjust that at some point.86.42.192.24 (talk) 12:16, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

Edits in mid-January 2009

On balance I prefer Jdorney's edits to Domer48, but nobody is god in these matters. All sources should be included, and contributors should again read Misplaced Pages:IDONTLIKEIT. Justification for horrible events long after the fact is a reality of history, but can be described as justification, and sometimes it comes close to propaganda. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the sympathetic or explanatory works by Messrs Ryan and Borgonovo (generally opposed to Hart) that I have read were not so thorough as to name the killers, raising the question: why not? They are professional historians; it would be informative to have explored their families' memories of the events.

Reality also has to intrude. Amazing as it may seem to some, being a member of the Orange order has not been a crime from the creation of the Irish Republic onwards, much less a capital offence. If you are a spy in a war, without being noticed, you cannot be shot on sight without legal process for spying after the war has ended. Joining a "Loyalist Action Group" was irrelevant after the 1921 truce if it caused no violence. Serious violence had broken out again in Belfast in May 1922, but as we all know Dunmanway is about 300 miles away and the massacre was in April. Emphasising these aspects decades later was/is a classic example of justification after the fact. The massacre was to do with revenge and obviously was a local irrational unauthorised red mist series of events. It was instantly condemned in the Dáil by all members, both pro- and anti-treaty.

Nobody was ever prosecuted, which said a lot to some protestants about the protection they could expect in the soon-to-be Free State, and many left. It is telling (to me anyway) that nobody tried to justify it until many years later, and only then in a carefully selective way.Red Hurley (talk) 15:29, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

Hi Red Hurley thank you for you explanatory views and opinions. There is currently a discussion above you might want to join? --Domer48_'fenian' 16:19, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

New evidence

Gentlemen/women, I've just read some very interesting new evidence that might help to clear up some of the disuputes we've been having.

I picked up a newly published book today, 'British Spies and Irish Rebels - British Intelligence and Ireland 1916-1945' by Paul McMahon ISBN 978-1-84383-376-5, (Boydell 2008).

On page 66, McMahon tells us that in April 1922, the British government authorised £2,000 to re-establish intelligence in southern Ireland, especially in Cork. In pursuit of this aim, on April 26, the same day as the raid on Hornibrooke's house, three British intelligence officers (Lts Hendy, Drove and Henderson) drove to Macroom and entered an inn. There they were apparently drugged and taken prisoner by IRA men, then taken to Macroom Castle where they were held for four days and then shot and dumped in a 'lonely bog'.

Is this the incident that really sparked the Dunmanway killings? Now McMahon does not connect the two events, but lets look at it. The IRA knew since February that there were many ex-informers in the Dunmanway area -they also, according to Hart, believed that there was a loyalist vigilante organisation at work. They then arrested three British intelligence officers in Macroom. That night came the raid on the Hornibrookes house in which Michael O'Neill was killed. This would have appeared to confirm that there were loyalist paramilitaries at work. The following three days saw the series of killings of ex-informers and their relatives.

This answers the question of why the people killed were specifically targetted on the 26th, 27th and 28th of April. I also want to make one more point however. Hart says that the men killed were targetted because they were Protestants. While this was clearly not the only factor, he may have a point. During the 1919-21 war there were, as Tom Barry pointed out, more Catholic informers than Protestants. Doubtless there were many Catholic names in the Auxiliaries' files discovered in Macroom. But only Protestants were targetted in the massacre.

Thoughts everyone?Jdorney (talk) 17:45, 18 January 2009 (UTC)

Nice one Jdorney, very intresting. Is this the incident that really sparked the Dunmanway killings? We would need a source that does connect the two events, but it could be added to give more background and context. In the absence of a source connecting the events its up to the reader to draw their own conclusions. As I mentioned above, unless we actually use Hart as a source discussing his opinions is pointless, besides, I have more than enough sources to challange Hart and his abuse and misuse of sources. If you want to develope the view that only Protestants were targetted in the massacre I'd be very intrested in it. We could start with the term massacre and discover how it arose? Why is it limited to three days, and not four? Why not a week, or just one day? What do they all have in common? Religion? Spying? Were they the only ones targeted in the Auxiliaries' files, or the only ones in that two-three day period?

I'll definitly add the McMahon book to my to get list as it will go along side my Brian P. Murphy's The Origins & Organisation of British Propaganda in Ireland 1920, John Borgonovo's Spies, Informers and the Anti-Sinn Féin Society: The Intelligence War in Cork City 1920-1921, and Ian Kenneally's The Paper Wall: Newspapers and Propaganda in Ireland 1919-1921. Taken together it may address some of the questions I've raised above. Nice work on finding a new source. --Domer48_'fenian' 18:24, 18 January 2009 (UTC)

Some minor fixes

• Several requests for citations removed.

No historian of the period has ever been able to uncover who ordered or carried out the attack. We don't need a citation for this. The absence of such information can't be proven.

Hart doesn't identify who the IRA men were, so asking for who is pointless.

Finally, most of Munster was in the hands of th anti-Treaty IRA, do we really need a source for this? Will provide one if necessary but its pretty common knowledge for anyone with any knowledge of the period.

• removed 'according to', a couple of times.

Matilda Woods didn't testify in 1927 according to Meda Ryan, she did, Ryan lists her statement as being in the British public record office. Likewise, the families didn't flle the area according to Niall Harringo, they did flee the area, as documented in a several sources. Cite more if necessary. In the same way, the New York Times was not the only paper which speculated that the killings were in retaliation for the northern 'pogroms' of Catholics, this was the general theory at the time. Again, will cite more sources if necessary. And again, the British didn't try to re-activate their intelligence services according to Paul McMahon, it was according to the state papers which McMahon cited in his book.Jdorney (talk) 13:45, 23 January 2009 (UTC)

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