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Edit this section for new requests

User:John Hyams and Israel-Palestine articles

While these are under general sanctions and a general source of WP:DRAMA etc, some of which I have been active in, this particular case is so multi-layered and apparently covered by multiple decisions that I am bringing it straight here.

On Talk:2008–2009 Israel–Gaza conflict, User:John Hyams said among other things:

"You are clearly a Hamas operative on Misplaced Pages, and this has to be dealt with."

• Soapboxing - *yawn*

• Using wikipedia as a battlefield - pretty much that is his post. Not a single encyclopedic fact, just aggresive opinion. Pretty much everyone is guity of this at one time or the other, but this was particulary bad faith and unproductive - and needs to be mentioned as part of what is wrong.

• This is a personal attack - not the worse in the wikipedia sense, but pretty awful even by such lax criteria.

• This is wanton uncivility that I have never seen on these articles or for that matter rarely in Misplaced Pages. And I have seen a lot. This is Godwin's Law elevated by orders of magnitude.

But much more seriously:

• This is a legal threat - Hamas is designated as a Foreign Terrorist Organization by the US Department of State. Being its operative is a federal crime. Acussing someone of being its operative is accusing someone of a federal crime. Saying that this has to be dealt with is a threat to follow up on this acussation - althought he sustains that it was meant to mean taking it up with Admins or Arbs - he only did so when confronted. This meets the duck test with straight As.

• This is libel, in a legal, BLP sense, precisely because of the legal implications.

When confonted by one user in his talk page, he said:

"As I already said on the talk page, "has to be dealt with" is by the Misplaced Pages administrators or arbitrators. All the rest, regarding his endorsement of Hamas, stands. Stop harassing me."

The user is clearly confrontational and unrepentant.

If this is not the forum, I apologize but I do feel rather strongly that this particular incident is very serious and requires ArbCom's attention, and since one single line create so many issues I was not sure where to go. I would have raised a new ArbCom straight up if it weren't for the fact that there are already discretionary sanctions and plenty of material on these articles.

I think a strong block from editing to show the community's reproach at such wanton behavior, along with oversight of the offending phrase is needed. This has to be punished. People shouldn't be allowed to casually put the security, safety and personal reputation of people at risk in Misplaced Pages. An in particular, you shouldn't put Misplaced Pages at risk of legal action, be it by force of copy-vio or legal threat.--Cerejota (talk) 08:50, 24 January 2009 (UTC)

QuackGuru 2 week block

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.

QuackGuru (talk · contribs) blocked for 2 weeks by Ioeth. Risker (talk) 08:45, 24 January 2009 (UTC)

It has been requested that I crosslist my recent 2 week block of QuackGuru (talk · contribs) here, for comment, since it was related to the Martinphi-ScienceApologist and Pseudoscience arbcom cases. The rationale, reasons for and notification of the block can be found here. The block was logged both on the Pseudoscience case here and the Martinphi-ScienceApologist case here. There is also a discussion going on at WP:ANI#Doctor of Chiropractic, which is how I initially became aware of the situation; since then, the block has been discussed, and the consensus seems to be that it was a good block. I open it up for discussion here as well. Ioeth (talk contribs twinkle friendly) 14:25, 22 January 2009 (UTC)

Having looked myself, and seeing QuackGuru's specific history with this article around the time of the AFD, I agree that his actions were problematic. He knew that when last widely tested by the community no consensus existed for merging or redirecting. Trying again was reasonable. Alhough discussion first would have been better than being bold, edit warring to redirect was not a reasonable act. QuackGuru's block log is ample evidence that he has a long standing behavior problem (and the reasons for the blocks show that his problem is specifically in this topic area) and that shorter blocks aren't adequately addressing his problematic behavior. The question was then whether to ramp up the block duration a notch or to do something more permanent. Increasing length from one week to two weeks is a reasonable increase in duration, and I'm not inclined to second guess your decision to step up only one notch. I also agree with your read that the consensus at ANI supports the block. GRBerry 17:53, 22 January 2009 (UTC)

Nothing to add to my comments at WP:AN/I; I think this is a reasonable use of discretionary sanctions. MastCell  18:03, 22 January 2009 (UTC)

As I already said at ANI, I too support the block. --Elonka 18:55, 22 January 2009 (UTC)

Same problems, same area, minor block escalation - I don't see any problems with how this was handled. If this pattern continues though, something other than escalating blocks might need to be tried. Shell 14:49, 23 January 2009 (UTC)

Prem Rawat

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.

Nik Wright2 is banned from Prem Rawat and related articles for one month, and Momento (talk · contribs) is warned that, if he continues to edit-war in order to resolve such issues, instead of requesting appropriate intervention, he may also be sanctioned. Applied by Sandstein (talk · contribs) 22:14, 21 January 2009 (UTC). Closed by Risker (talk) 08:51, 24 January 2009 (UTC)

The Prem Rawat article has once again descended into petty edit warring. User:Momento appears in breach of multiple revert prohibition while refusing to engage in discussion of pertinent guidelines in respect of WP:EL ArbCom enforcement and uninvolved admin participation is needed if the problem is not once again to become chronic.

Diffs:

Undiscussed revert by User:Pongostick http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Prem_Rawat&diff=next&oldid=265060672

Restored previous version User:Nik Wright2 http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Prem_Rawat&diff=next&oldid=265107530

Unjustified revert by User:Momento http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Prem_Rawat&diff=next&oldid=265143535

Restored previous version User: 41.223.60.60 http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Prem_Rawat&diff=next&oldid=265151542

Unjustified revert by User:Momento http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Prem_Rawat&diff=next&oldid=265230299

Restored previous version User:Nik Wright2 http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Prem_Rawat&diff=next&oldid=265236563

Unjustified revert by User:Momento http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Prem_Rawat&diff=next&oldid=265260427

Restored previous version User: 41.223.60.60 http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Prem_Rawat&diff=next&oldid=265283956

Unjustified revert by User:Momento http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Prem_Rawat&diff=next&oldid=265433059

Talk page relevant to above http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Talk:Prem_Rawat&diff=next&oldid=265237432

--Nik Wright2 (talk) 13:53, 21 January 2009 (UTC)

Some notes,

1. Momento was warned before his last revert
   • Last revert by Momento from the list above 06:00, 21 January 2009
   • 3RR warning on Momento's talk page less than 24 h. before that revert 10:36, 20 January 2009
2. Relevant ArbCom case: Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Prem Rawat, in particular both remedies: Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Prem Rawat#Remedies - at least Momento and Nik Wright "...have or may be perceived as having a conflict of interest", so the second remedy applies.
3. Suggested application of remedies:
   • protect or semi-protect article until differences are settled at talk page;
   • check the edit-warriors' block logs, and apply blocks at least doubling the last blocks these editors had with respect to this page.
4. All above edit-warriors, apart from the initiator of this thread on this noticeboard (Nik Wright), have been notified about this WP:AE thread on their talk page (that is, apart from Nik's general notification at the Prem Rawat talk page at the time of initiating this thread 13:58, 21 January 2009):
   • User:41.223.60.60 14:07, 21 January 2009
   • User:Pongostick 17:20, 21 January 2009
   • User:Momento 17:22, 21 January 2009
5. It might be wise to perform a CU on above involved edit-warriors (although past instances of edit-wars by SPA's, anons and the like never showed any CU linkage)
6. Time-span of the above 9 reverts: 17:15, 19 January 2009 → 06:00, 21 January 2009. Technically, none is a 3RR violation, not even the four reverts by Momento (time span: 33:03 h) - but edit-warring nonetheless I suppose.

--Francis Schonken (talk) 18:00, 21 January 2009 (UTC)

Note: There'd been a longstanding and (until recently, apparently) quite successful consensus on the talk page to list the official site and nowt else. The site editors sought to include/exclude in the above altercation contains quite a lot of non-BLP-savoury material: http://ex-premie.org/archives/archive.cgi?arch=20010720a#P_6231.1433185576579 etc. Jayen466 21:16, 21 January 2009 (UTC)

It's clear that Momento (talk · contribs), Nik Wright2 (talk · contribs) and some IPs and SPAs have editwarred about the external link http://ex-premie.org in Prem Rawat. On the merits, I think that Momento is right. While I know nothing about Prem Rawat, the website http://ex-premie.org appears to be operated by private persons and dedicated to making allegations against him, including claims of criminal or immoral conduct. It thereby fails Misplaced Pages:EL#In biographies of living people, which states that "External links in biographies of living persons must be of high quality and are judged by a higher standard than for other articles. Do not link to websites that contradict the spirit of WP:BLP or that are not fully compliant with this guideline." However, editwarring is not the appropriate way to resolve such issues.

In view of this, as an uninvolved administrator in enforcement of Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Prem Rawat#Article probation, I am:

• topic banning Nik Wright2 from Prem Rawat and related articles for one month, and
• warning Momento that, if he continues to edit-war in order to resolve such issues, instead of requesting appropriate intervention, he may also be sanctioned.

 Sandstein  22:14, 21 January 2009 (UTC)

The quoted sentence from Misplaced Pages:EL#In biographies of living people was edited by admin jossi http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Misplaced Pages%3AExternal_links&diff=238171957&oldid=238098782 to protect "his" article Prem Rawat from critical links 89.247.62.105 (talk) 06:31, 22 January 2009 (UTC)

Hi, you seem to be very familiar with the site. If you have an account please log in. It's a bit troubling to see that assertion about someone who's resigned and retired. Jossi had his shortcomings, but in every instance we should be careful to substantiate each negative assertion, or else refrain from making it. Durova 06:36, 22 January 2009 (UTC)

The editing to WP:EL apparently done by Jossi only emphasised the requirements of WP:BLP. No other editor has seen fit to remove it, and indeed there is no reason for them to do so, as it adds nothing new, only draws timely attention to what has already been agreed. Your suggestion of article ownership by Jossi is grossly unfair and typical of the mudslinging that has become the modus operandi of one side of this dispute. Rumiton (talk) 14:46, 22 January 2009 (UTC)

• WP:3RR has an exemption to cover deleting material which clearly and actually violates the WP:BLP policy. While the external link in question might not be consistent with WP:EL, its inclusion is not such a clear breach of BLP that violations of 3RR should be tolerated. Regarding exteranl links in Prem Rawat, there has been a consensus to limit them to a single official site since about February, and I encourage the maintenance of that consensus because otherweise there are edit wars like this one. As for Jossi's edit to WP:EL, I personally disagreed with the wording of it because it made no sense (it's absurd to require exteranl links to adhere to Misplaced Pages's BLP policy, for a number of reasons). Jossi worked out that version, which I still think is too vague and doesn't spell out what is actually prohibited. I don't think it should be relied on in this matter. As for how to handle the immediate situation, I think all parties should be warned to stop fighting over this, and anyone who continues should be topic banned for a significant period, per the ArbCom case.   Will Beback  talk  15:52, 22 January 2009 (UTC)

It seems abundantly clear to me that the link in question is defamatory. If you believe WP:BLP or WP:EL need improving, the thing to do is hop in and improve them. In the meantime, the "immediate situation" has been handled pretty well, I think. Rumiton (talk) 16:11, 22 January 2009 (UTC)

Agree - this has been handled competently by Sandstein. PhilKnight (talk) 17:18, 22 January 2009 (UTC)

I disagree with the statement that "The site is not such a clear violation of BLP". It calls the BLP subject a f*ckhead (in "Best of the forum"), and much else besides. If that isn't a clear BLP violation, I don't know what is. Jayen466 20:07, 22 January 2009 (UTC)

I strongly disagree with ARBCOM member Sandstein's decision in this instance. How can anyone, ARBCOM member or not, make a judgment about a website (or anything else) when they admittedly state they know nothing about the subject, in this case, Prem Rawat? If members of ARBCOM cannot inform themselves about the issues about which they make judgments and decisions, then what good is the ARBCOM committee, or any other Misplaced Pages "Committee?" I recommend that Sandstein at the very least reconsider and retract this decision by give equal punishment to Momento as s/he gives to NikW2. Sylviecyn (talk) 16:51, 22 January 2009 (UTC)

Hi Sylviecyn, I think you're confused, Sandstein isn't a member of the Arbitration Committee, he's an administrator who is enforcing the committee's decision. PhilKnight (talk) 17:08, 22 January 2009 (UTC)

Yes. For the purpose of the instant case, it is sufficient to know that Prem Rawat is a living person and that his biography is the subject of an Arbitration Committee remedy. What I meant to say is that I am uninvolved in the drama that seems to have surrounded his article.  Sandstein  20:39, 22 January 2009 (UTC)

I will continue my strong disagreement with your decision anyway, specifically your unfair treatment of doling out punishment to NikW2, when he has never been blocked before for edit-warring, or anything else, so far as I can tell. I would stress to any administrator that they take steps to inform themselves well about a controversial subject and the parties involved before they lower their axes, whiling stating they are uninformed about a subject. Everything isn't black and white, even on Misplaced Pages. Btw, Ex-premie.org has been cited by academics, cult-awareness experts, and information about it has been published in news organs that are considered reputable sources by Misplaced Pages standards. I'd also like to note that it was (now retired) Jossi who left under a shadow, that altered the BLP and EL policies in order to disallow this particular link. Thanks. Sylviecyn (talk) 13:49, 23 January 2009 (UTC)

Since this is still going I will inform you that this enforcement action was created from a completely dishonest complaint by Nik Wright2. Nik Wright2 provides an edit summary to justify his complaint that omits three previous insertions of the defamatory link by 3 Anon editors in the three days prior (two of whom have no previous edit history and one who has made unhelpful edits elsewhere) and three reverts of that link. Plus NikWright2 has omitted his own insertion of that link and then he starts his edit summary with Pongostick's revert of Nik Wright2's insert and calls Pongostick's edit "an undiscussed revert" ignoring Rumiton's earlier clear and appropriate talk page message where he explains why the link can't be included. Despite the fact that this link has not appeared in the article for nearly a year and was inserted by a one edit editor Nik Wright2 characterizes its repeated insertion as "Restored previous version " and the reverts as "Unjustified reverts". This gross manipulation of the edit history should be unacceptable but it is no surprise to see Francis Schonken and WillBeback support Nik Wright's complaint. Both have left cautions on my talk page but none on Nik Wright's and, of course, no caution on the Anon editors pages. They make a point to complain about me as often as possible and if that doesn't work they make it up as this exchange shows .Momento (talk) 22:28, 22 January 2009 (UTC)

I am not supporting Nik's complaint. I am saying that the Arbcom has specifically prohibited edit warring in this topic, due in part to conflicts like this one. A minor violation of BLP is not sufficient to permit edit warring among editors who have already been warned repeatedly to stop (albeit not recently). A mere link is not an egregious BLP violation. Adding "Smith is a fink" to an article is the type of edit that the 3RR exemption is meant to cover. Many suitable ELs contain editorial comments equivalent to calling the subjects "fuckheads". The clearer reason for excluding the link is that it contains significant amounts of copyright violatons in the form of reprinted articles about the subject. To summarize, both Nik and Momento, and any others involved in this, were wrong and should not have edit warred over this link. All involved parties should receive similar topic bans.   Will Beback  talk  23:33, 22 January 2009 (UTC)

I see that Momento has been blocked 4 times in the past year for edit warring on this same topic. By comparion, NikWright2 has never been blocked. That's one reaosn why topic banning Nik while simply warning Momento (yet again) does not seem equitable. Lastly, I'd remind admins imposing remedies to note them in the log of blocks and bans in the ArbCom case. If Momento is simply getting a warning, which I believe is insufficient, then that should also be logged.   Will Beback  talk  03:30, 23 January 2009 (UTC)

Once again we have an opportunity to see WillBeBack's bias. I have been blocked a total 6 days in 3 years with over 5,500 edits on one of the most volatile articles on Wiki. And a close look at the blocks will show the first was an appalling sock puppet miscarriage without a usercheck and evidence to the contrary and quickly unblocked , the second was for removing the same derogatory link from the Prem Rawat, the third was initiated by FrancisSchonken and the fourth time was initiated by FrancisSchponken and supported by WillBeBack and Francis was also blocked. Nick Wright2 has made less than 500 edits and been blocked for a month. This latest issue is typical. WillBeBack and Francis Schonken stand by while a clearly derogatory link is added by anon editors without discussion to the Prem Rawat article and then join in a clearly dishonest complaint about me when I revert it 5 times in 5 days. Something is very wrong here. I should be protected and Francis and Will should be warned to stoop harassing me. And for your info Will "A mere link (to a defamatory site) IS an egregious BLP violation" and should not be tolerated.If you don't want to support Wiki policy it's time you resigned as an Admin.Momento (talk) 05:35, 23 January 2009 (UTC)

Agree. Adding a defamatory website link to a BLP seems highly egregious to me, way beyond mere incivility to another editor. There seems to be a double standard at work. Rumiton (talk) 12:54, 23 January 2009 (UTC)

I think that Momento's and Rumiton's inflammatory language about the ex-premie.org website is unwarranted and unhelpful. The website has been in existence for over ten years without a whisper of a libel complaint or action from Rawat himself. The revelatory information about Divine Light Mission/Elan Vital and its leader, Prem Rawat on that website has been made by people who have freely identified themselves at great expense to their personal and professional reputations, because of the severe backlash from members of this NRM/cult in Prem Rawat's defense. Therefore, please tone your rhetoric down. I understand the abundance of caution concerning BLPs, but please don't forget that something isn't libel or defamatory if it is true. Plus, the EPO website has been referenced by academics as well as reputable news organizations. Furthermore, for the record, I don't want to see the words "hate group" one more time ever on Misplaced Pages pages when adherents are referencing the EPO website and especially myself and other ex-premies. That's definitely defamatory libel against private persons who are also editors on Misplaced Pages. I can't state this more seriously or sternly. There's a big difference between what can be said about a public person (Prem Rawat) versus a private person (Misplaced Pages editors). Please learn those distinctions and heed them. Sylviecyn (talk) 13:22, 23 January 2009 (UTC)

I don't know of any such distinction (public v. private) on Misplaced Pages, all living persons are granted the right to be treated fairly. There are many reasons why legal action may not be taken against libelers. The fact that none aparently has been taken by Prem Rawat is not an indication that the libelous statements might be true. Can you imagine someone defending themself by saying, "It's the truth! He really is a f*ckhead!"? Information is one thing. Violent vituperation is quite another. Rumiton (talk) 13:33, 23 January 2009 (UTC)

None of which has anything to do with the topic. We're talking about former consumers of an inherently flawed product called "The Knowledge of Guru Maharaj Ji." This consists of four so-called meditation techniques taught in various ways by various teachers or "mahatmas" at various times. The primary issue is not the guru's past outrageous exploitation of his followers, which came through an organization he inherited from his family. We're talking about a flawed product. Some of these techniques would have some value to a very few people suffering from extreme mental illness, and in some cases, there has been benefit to certain drug addicts, but, among drug addicts I have met who have tried the guru's meditation, most have continued to be addicts, and I am aware of one individual who had to be restrained by mental health personnel as a direct result of the guru's teachings. Of course, I can't put personal knowledge in a Misplaced Pages article. It has to come from "reliable sources." The rules of Misplaced Pages have been manipulated and rewritten by Jossi in devious ways to prevent legitimate criticism of his guru. If someone visits EPO, (s)he will be exposed to valuable information which should be considered before attempting GMJ's "meditation" and Misplaced Pages owes that much to its readers. Rumiton and Momemento have been active, with jossi, in preventing an objective evaluation of their guru's "teachings." Wowest (talk) 14:16, 23 January 2009 (UTC)

• If Momento thinks I am harassing him then he needs to provide some evidence of it rather then making empty claims. I have been on a break from Misplaced Pages for weeks. I resent being accused of things of which there is absolutely no evidence. All I've done here is point out that Momento is a repeat offender. That is not harassment, it's just background information.   Will Beback  talk  14:26, 23 January 2009 (UTC)

You seem to be very active in the articles about Prem Rawat, and trying very hard to make these articles as titillating and provocative as possible. If I am right, then it's maybe you the repeat offender? Just background information... PongoStick —Preceding unsigned comment added by Pongostick (talk • contribs) 04:12, 24 January 2009 (UTC)

Please familiarize yourself with Misplaced Pages policies before making accusations. One of our core policies is WP:AGF: assume good faith. I have never been blocked for violating even a single policy on Misplaced Pages, despite having made tens of thousands of edits over more than four years. Please do not make carefless accusations against editoprs in good standing, as it reflects poorly on you.   Will Beback  talk  04:45, 24 January 2009 (UTC)

Pongostick, earlier on this thread I asked someone who cast aspersions on Jossi to either substantiate the allegation or else withdraw it. What's good for the goose is good for the gander. Durova 07:16, 24 January 2009 (UTC)

User:Dicklyon and Eric Lerner (again)

I'm not sure what to do. The combativeness is back, and Dicklyon is simply not letting up.

Please see Misplaced Pages:Administrators'_noticeboard/Arbitration_enforcement/Archive33#Pseudoscience for background.

Dicklyon (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) was banned for a week from the article and upon returning immediately went back to his old ways. He is combative, seems to refuse to discuss, and is now engaging in a white-washing campaign to remove sources and context from Eric Lerner that explain to the reader the current and past issues with Lerner's ideas. Despite exhortations from other editors to stop and praise for the way the article was rewritten before he began systematically attacking it again: , it seems that Dicklyon has reasserted his ownership of what is and is not appropriate content. I'll note that he has added absolutely zero to the article since returning from being banned for a week.

• --> makes a personal accusation that I'm "mistreating" the subject.
• --> accuses sources written by PhD scientists of being "poor sources", misapplies and wikilawyers BLP concerns, and poisons the well with respect to me AGAIN.
• --> despite admitting that a mention later "might be okay", he unilaterally removes this mention no matter where it is placed in the article:
• --> accuses me of "not helping with the problem" and then has the audacity to claim that his edit warring was in response to this! He claims I'm trying to "teach cosmology" and that I'm "debunking".

Then he goes on an edit-warring rampage that I've been trying to deal with:

• --> First removal of a sourced section of criticism claiming that it is "UNDUE WEIGHT" which orphans a reference: . I revert with the edit summary "I'm sorry, but we need to let the reader know what the current state is. Reorganize, don't delete."
• --> Dicklyon replies with a high-handed edit summary that claims he is reverting per WP:BRD when in fact he's simply removing content that is not flattering to Lerner's ideas: "When I reverted a bit of your bold re-org, you should have worked to find a way around he objection, not just put it back."
• --> I try to reintroduce the text with sourcing to other physicists and astronomers who make the same critiques.
• --> He begins removing sources claiming they aren't "reliable" despite the people writing them having credentials, affiliations, and reputations that far exceed Lerner's in the relevant academic communities.
• --> Removing another source claiming it isn't "reliable".
• --> Removed a sourced statement claiming it was "unsupportable". I revert this pointing out that it is supported by the sources:
• --> Removes a well-sourced contextual critique of Lerner's book that he had moved to a different location earlier .

In short, what's essentially happening is that Dicklyon has been systematically removing sourced critique and context and directly applicable, sourced text that deals with the exposition of Lerner's book while at the same time actively attacking me on the talk page and continuing his campaign to make the editing environment as hostile as possible. I thought he would settle down after a week-long Wikibreak, but he hasn't.

I can't even get a third opinion without having him come in and make vague accusations about the sources being a "pile-on": Misplaced Pages:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard#Reliable_source_for_a_critique_of_Eric_Lerner.27s_book.3F

Help.

ScienceApologist (talk) 15:33, 20 January 2009 (UTC)

The paragraph that got moved and removed is this one:

These critiques have been repudiated by mainstream cosmologists who have also directly criticized Lerner for making errors of fact and interpretation.(ref name=Wright)Wright, Edward L. "Errors in "The Big Bang Never Happened" For example, the size of superclusters is a feature that has been limited by subsequent observations to the end of greatness and explained in the astronomical journals as arising from a power spectrum of density fluctuations growing from the quantum fluctuations predicted in inflationary models. Additionally, the anisotropies were discovered in subsequent analysis of the both COBE and BOOMERanG experiments and were more fully characterized by the Wilkinson Microwave Anisotropy Probe.(ref name=Wright)

SA likes to have his "debunking" in there with the description of Lerner's book, to try to teach the reader some cosmology to help them understand what's wrong with Lerner's assertions about the state of cosmology in 1991. Wright and a bunch of other cosmologists are already cited for their negative reactions to the book in the next paragraph. This heavy-duty debunking paragraph is essentially off topic, being not about the book or reactions to it. He insisted on having it between Lerner's premises and the description of the new cosmology that the book argues for.

As usual, SA's single-minded SPOV approach to editing "fringe" or "pseudo" science ideas leads to bad articles. The edits that he complains about above by me were all very moderated reactions to his unbalanced approach. If I have come close to being "disruptive", I would appreciate some feedback from anyone who thinks so, besides him. Dicklyon (talk) 15:56, 20 January 2009 (UTC)

One more thing: the sentence I removed as "unsupportable" was Professional cosmologists and physicists who have commented on Lerner's Big Bang critique have universally repudiated it. This kind of thing is inherently hard to support; I did check the two cited sources, and neither made a claim for the universality of their cricisms. There has been some discussions, even by Lerner himself, about how conventional cosmologists reject his work, but it's more a classifation tautology: anyone who doesn't reject his work can't be considered a conventional cosmologist. Putting this way is just a ruse for saying that only the conventional cosmologists have the right to an opinion; this is the SA's "mainstream" or scientific POV at work. It does damage to articles on non-mainstream topic to have them presented this way. Dicklyon (talk) 16:04, 20 January 2009 (UTC)

Please oh please, do not continue your content dispute here. We do not care. SA, since you filed this complaint, could you please link the appropriate Arbitration remedy? I would prefer another admin do the deciding here (I've made workshop proposals in the fringe science case) but I will help do some leg work.--Tznkai (talk) 16:25, 20 January 2009 (UTC)

See this remedy, specifically the log where Dick was warned by PhilKnight and subsequently banned for a week from Eric Lerner by Shell Kinney for continued disruption. Skinwalker (talk) 00:36, 21 January 2009 (UTC)

The appropriate arbitration remedy to me looks like banning Dicklyon from the page for a period longer than one week, since that didn't seem to do the trick the last time. I leave it to an administrator to decide what the appropriate length would be. How do you get a person who refuses to collaborate to collaborate? ScienceApologist (talk) 18:37, 20 January 2009 (UTC)

Again, I request that if I have come close to being "disruptive", I would appreciate some feedback from anyone who thinks so, besides SA. I could have come here and complained about his side of the problem, but I didn't; and I didn't let it spill over into other articles; if this is disruptive, tell me. I'm trying to work toward a better article, but he doesn't let it budge much from the version he created. I'm open to suggestions. In the mean time, I will hold off editing anything to do with Eric Lerner (I did already add one more commment to the RS/N though, to note that SA had reported me here for my comment there). Dicklyon (talk) 19:07, 20 January 2009 (UTC)

Ahem. I believe I stated that your poisoning the well against SA was uncalled for. Yes, yes I did. After you wrote "As for rewriting without quotes, I don't disagree that the approach could work. But it would have to be done by someone with a balanced view. If you attempt it yourself, it seems unlikely that it could come out as acceptable," I responded "Do you mind not poisoning the well? It's in incredibly bad taste. Weren't you just banned from this article for behavior exactly like that?" No comment or opinion on the current action/sanction/whatever. Just correcting the record. Hipocrite (talk) 14:22, 21 January 2009 (UTC)

Given the lack of feedback, I'm going to presume that I'm not close to crossing any line; so I'll go back to editing -- carefully. Dicklyon (talk) 06:21, 21 January 2009 (UTC)

This comment was overly personal. I guess another 1 week ban could possibly be justified. PhilKnight (talk) 08:20, 21 January 2009 (UTC)

OK, if that's too personal, I'll calibrate on that. Thanks. Dicklyon (talk) 08:24, 21 January 2009 (UTC)

• Bit of feedback here since Dicklyon indicated that he thinks a lack of response indicates that he's acting properly. So to state it clearly: Dicklyon, SA's evidence above is a serious concern and you are crossing several lines. You appear to be, yet again, attempting to whitewash the article with a healthy dose of attacking other editors thrown in for spice. If you cannot put aside your personal feelings about the subject and abide by Misplaced Pages's policies and guidelines, you'll likely be asked to refrain from any editing on the article. Personal attacks are right out - try to remain cool even when disagreements arise. Shell 14:47, 23 January 2009 (UTC)

Shell, thanks; but it would really help to know more precisely what I've done wrong. Which of SA's linked complaints above indicate something of a sort that I should avoid? PhilKnight linked where I said "It is not really appropriate to just call it pseudoscience as an excuse to mistreat it, as ScienceApologist does, and as in the policies he proposes." I was referring to his well-known methods and his WP:MAINSTREAM proposal and proposed changes to WP:FRINGE (e.g this one) and such. Should I avoid referring to his POV when trying to prevent him pushing it? Or just let him push it? Or what? Did you even look at what he did there? Should I be reporting him here, too, like he's doing to me? And can you show me a diff that illustrates what you mean by "whitewash"? Or, never mind, as we seem to have converged peacefully, and it may be stable. Dicklyon (talk) 04:22, 24 January 2009 (UTC)

Marshal Bagramyan

MarshallBagramyan (talk · contribs) is edit warring and making incivil comments about other users. On the article Nakhichevan khanate he made 3 rvs within the last 2 days, replacing the source that he does not like with the Armenian source that he likes more. In the last revert he calls the edit by another user "vandalism", which of course it was not. And comments like this are nothing unusual for this user: Here are some other examples of the language he uses in discussion with other editors. This user has been officially warned for edit warring before: According to the ruling of arbitration case Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Armenia-Azerbaijan 2, Any uninvolved administrator may, on his or her own discretion, impose sanctions on any editor working in the area of conflict if, despite being warned, that editor repeatedly or seriously fails to adhere to the purpose of Misplaced Pages, any expected standards of behavior, or any normal editorial process. I suggest that MarshallBagramyan is placed on supervised editing for repeatedly failing to adhere to expected standards of behavior. Grandmaster 06:04, 15 January 2009 (UTC)

My arguments can be found on the talk page of said article. I tried reasoning, in vain, with all three editors who consistently and blindly reverted my edits as well as the content and reliable, secondary source they were based on. Grandmaster, Atabek, who has already banned from editing on certain Nagorno-Karabakh related articles, as well as the sudden appearance Dacy69 essentially engaged in an edit war where they argued in giving extra weight to a primary source, which itself is unacceptable as stated on Misplaced Pages's own page "Articles should rely on reliable, third-party, published sources with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy. This means that we only publish the opinions of reliable authors, and not the opinions of Wikipedians who have read and interpreted primary source material for themselves" and "Misplaced Pages articles should be based on reliable secondary sources. This means that while primary or tertiary sources can be used to support specific statements, the bulk of the article should rely on secondary sources ." The primary source fails in all contexts to meet these guidelines.

Note that users such as Atabek have had an extensive history in distorting, manipulating and falsifying source material (see the talk pages of Khachkar destruction in Nakhchivan, Movses Kaghankatvatsi, Sahl Smbatean, etc.) to the point where he was banned from editing those articles entirely. My warnings went unheeded, and I naturally reverted all edits that, in effect, vandalized and suppressed the information on that article. --Marshal Bagramyan (talk) 06:24, 15 January 2009 (UTC)

I'm not going to discuss the content issues here. Whether Griboyedov, a prominent Russian writer and politician, is primary or secondary source, there's no reason to replace his opinion with the opinion of the Armenian scholar Bournatian. Misplaced Pages must provide not just the opinion of the Armenian side, but all existing points of view, and inclusion of Griboyedov is certainly not vandalism and does not excuse incivil language and edit warring by you. You know that the admins recommended editors in AA related articles to voluntarily stick to 1RR: , yet you repeatedly chose to edit war much in excess of 1RR limit, unlike all others. I believe it is time that arbitration ruling is imposed, as you took no notice of prior official warnings. Grandmaster 06:38, 15 January 2009 (UTC)

The edits by Marshal Bagramyan seem to be intended to remove material from the article that enjoys widespread circulation amongst anti-Armenian propaganda deriving from Azerbaijan. The claim by Azerbaijan is, basically, that every Armenian came from somewhere else, and thus they have no rights to any territory whatsoever (even the territory of the republic of Armenia). It's an odious and deeply racist theory that is genocidal in nature and which has no basis in historical fact. However, sources are distorted and selectively quoted to support it. Similar distortion and selective quoting was going on in that article. Marshal Bagramyan has not exceeded the three revert rule, and, considering the unpleasant ideological material that he has been trying to remove from the article, his three reverts and his talk page comments were fully justified. But for future additions or changes to the article's content, it would be best if they are worked out in the article's talk page. Meowy 21:39, 15 January 2009 (UTC)

George Bournoutian is an excellent and unique expert on the subject and a good third-party source. Marshal Bagramyan is entirely right by including him. Grandmaster is trolling and avoiding consensus-building here and in on Nagorno Karabakh. Capasitor (talk) 02:23, 16 January 2009 (UTC)

This is not about inclusion or deletion of Bournoutian. No one ever removed him. This is about edit warring by Marshall, who made 3 rvs within the last 2 days. I hope the admins will finally review this report. Grandmaster 05:52, 16 January 2009 (UTC)

You should go shop around more, looks like Moreschi has better things to do. VartanM (talk) 06:09, 16 January 2009 (UTC)

Actually, no one disputes the inclusion of Bournoutian, it's about exclusion of Griboyedov. If MarshallBagramyan is truly dedicated to spirit of neutral editing, he should not be removing one reference for another, but keep one and add another, which Grandmaster and myself did in our edits. Those are my two cents relevant to the topic. Thanks. Atabəy (talk) 08:07, 16 January 2009 (UTC)

And there was no need to make 3rvs to remove Griboyedov and replace him with Bournatian. All the views must be presented, and edit warring is not helpful at all. Grandmaster 08:16, 16 January 2009 (UTC)

And distortions and selective quoting of Griboyedov should not be presented. The article has a number of issues, issues which will be best resolved in its talk page. Given that the 3RR was not broken, the reverts took place in a relatively quiet article, and the reverting has stopped, this complaint is starting to sideline discussions which could lead to the article's improvement. Meowy 16:23, 16 January 2009 (UTC)

Well, the article issues are being resolved on its talk page, the one who removes existing reference replacing it with Bournoutian only is MarshallBagramyan. So reverting page 3 times in 2 days indicates the unwillingness of the editor to abide by discussion on the talk page. Atabəy (talk) 04:19, 18 January 2009 (UTC)

Another rv by Marshall, this time removing 2 third party sources contradicting the claims of Armenian historian Bournatian: This is his 4th rv within one week. As I understand, the request to stick to voluntarily 1 rv per week on AA topics is no longer valid. Then everyone else can feel free to make as many rvs as Marshal. Grandmaster 07:27, 18 January 2009 (UTC)

Grandmaster and Atabek: Blind reverting or Abusing AE board with frivolous report

Grandmaster and Atabek apparently didn't learn that reading what they were reverting is a serious requirement. Last time around they were banned from Shusha pogrom article and its talkpage for 4 weeks for not reading what they were reverting. This time, the two repeatedly accused MarshallBagramyan of removing the Griboyedov source (Grandmaster ), (Atabek ), but if one looks at the "evidence" they provided, its clear that the source was never removed. This can mean only two things, either they never looked at what they were reverting or they intentionally lied and made a false report to get MarshalBagramyan sanctioned. Both are a serious matter and unacceptable in wikipedia. I hope this matter is dealt accordingly. VartanM (talk) 19:41, 18 January 2009 (UTC)

I never said that Marshal removed Griboyedov, I said he replaced his opinion with the opinion of Bournoutian, an Armenian scholar. No need to distort my words. Griboyedov never uses the word "repatriation", but when reading the present version of the article one gets the impression that he does, because of distortion of the sources by Marshal. In addition, Marshal completely deleted 2 secondary sources by his latest, 4th revert in that article. Of course, an attempt to present position of Bournoutian as a fact and suppress any other points of view is not in line with WP:NPOV. Grandmaster 05:42, 19 January 2009 (UTC)

Also note that in his latest post Marshal calls my edits vandalism and threatens me that he and his friends will be edit warring to suppress any alternative points of view, if I try to include them. These are his words: You vandalize the article, and I and other users will revert you; we're well within our limits and it's as simple as that. Is this sort of battleground approach acceptable? Grandmaster 05:51, 19 January 2009 (UTC)

You're going to deny it? I'll quote you. You seem to prefer the word replace as appose to remove. The definition of replace is "substitute a person or thing for another".

• And there was no need to make 3rvs to remove Griboyedov and replace him with Bournatian
• replacing the source that he does not like with the Armenian source that he likes more
• Marshall, you cannot replace the source you do not like with the one that you like more.
• Do not replace Griboyedov, an eye witness of the process, with Bournatian.
• In sum, please keep all the sources there, and do not replace one with another.

And I don't want Atabek to feel left out.

• Edit summary: rv no sufficient justification for removal of Griboyedov reference, why should you remove a contemporary reference to justify your point any way?
• I think both opinions should be equally cited instead of removing one for another.
• it's about exclusion of Griboyedov
• he should not be removing one reference for another, but keep one and add another
• the one who removes existing reference replacing it with Bournoutian only is MarshallBagramyan.

--VartanM (talk) 07:20, 19 January 2009 (UTC)

I don't really get your point. As I explained above, Marshal removed the opinion of Griboyedov and replaced it with the opinion of Bournoutian. So yes, there's no need to replace Griboyedov's words with words of the Armenian source, even if you keep the reference to Griboyedov. The above does not excuse 4 rvs by Marshal, and especially the last one, where he removed 2 third party sources: In any case, I hope you are not going to deny that Marshal made 4 rvs within the last week, and threatens that he will continue to do so, if I try to make edits that he does not like? Grandmaster 07:28, 19 January 2009 (UTC)

See here for example, this rv by Marshal with incivil edit summary, where he calls edit by Atabek "vandalism": One can see that the words of the Russian envoy are replaced with the words of the Bournoutian, while the previous edit provided both points of view. And this is the last rv by Marshal, when he removed the references to 2 third party sources, Thomas De Waal. Black Garden: Armenia and Azerbaijan Through Peace and War. NYU Press, 2004. ISBN 0814719457, 9780814719459, p. 151, and Charles King. The Ghost of Freedom: A History of the Caucasus. Oxford University Press US, 2008. ISBN 0195177754, 9780195177756, p. 159: And he says that if I continue to "vandalize" the article by using the sources that he does not like, he will continue reverting and get the others to help him. Grandmaster 07:41, 19 January 2009 (UTC)

The point is, you and Atabek repeatedly accused Marshall of removing Griboyedov, when in fact Griboyedov was never removed. As I said on Moreschi's talkpage this is the lowest you have ever gotten. I didn't expect this from you. I'm very disappointed. VartanM (talk) 07:55, 19 January 2009 (UTC)

It would be good if you stopped twisting my words. I said that Marshall replaced the words of Griboyedov with the words of another source, and made 4 rvs to keep it like that. In his last rv, Marshall removed 2 third party sources. I don't think that you can deny that he indeed made all those rvs. If you think that such edit warring is acceptable, I beg to differ. Grandmaster 08:05, 19 January 2009 (UTC)

You repeatedly implied that Marshall replaced Griboyedov with Armenian source (we'll get to that letter). I'll quote you again, You can not ran away from your own words.

• there was no need to make 3rvs to remove Griboyedov and replace him with Bournatian

--VartanM (talk) 08:51, 19 January 2009 (UTC)

So? Yes, he was replacing the words of one source with the words of another. How does this make my report frivolous? Do you deny all the reverts by this user? You are trying to divert attention from edit warring by Marshall. Please stop it. Grandmaster 09:01, 19 January 2009 (UTC)

• Argh. I'm looking at this now. Moreschi (talk) 12:02, 19 January 2009 (UTC)

It's clear as a day that MarshallBagramyan's reverting history is more extensive on the page in dispute, it's also the fact that he deliberately removes legitimate sources that don't fit his POV, and that VartanM's aim in opening this part of the thread is to divert attention from those facts. Atabəy (talk) 16:25, 19 January 2009 (UTC)

You can't blame me for "changing" Griboyedov's words because there are no quotations to tell the reader which ones were his! If you don't place quotations, that's called plagiarism. Frivolous indeed.--Marshal Bagramyan (talk) 18:01, 19 January 2009 (UTC)

• Formal 1RR per week for Marshal. Dacy69 is permabanned, as he's been wasting everyone's time for way too long. Back to the talkpage, stick to 1RR and try to work out some form of compromise, people...Moreschi (talk) 19:30, 19 January 2009 (UTC)

Resolved

How does one get a restriction lifted?

In 2007, I was subjected to a restriction by Arbcom. How does one move beyond such things?Ferrylodge (talk) 23:12, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

You request an appeal, contact an Arbitration Committee Clerk for assistance if you would like, but not me, I'm an "involved" editor on abortion.--Tznkai (talk) 23:18, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

So you are. Okay, I'll go chase down an arbcom clerk. Thx.Ferrylodge (talk) 23:23, 17 January 2009 (UTC)