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Buckingham Palace

previous FAR

Notified: User:Giano, User:Giano II, User:FClef, User:Bishonen, User:Risker, Misplaced Pages:WikiProject England, Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Architecture, Misplaced Pages:WikiProject London Notifications completed.

Fails criteria 1c, 1d 2a

1C factually accurate

• (c) factually accurate: claims are verifiable against reliable sources, accurately represent the relevant body of published knowledge, and are supported with specific evidence and external citations; this requires a "References" section in which sources are listed, complemented by inline citations where appropriate;
• (d) neutral: it presents views fairly and without bias;

Most of the article does not have inline citations. To those who are not British, this is not such "commonly known" information that it does not need references, as I was told on the article talk page.

Examples of large chunks of unreferenced material

• "In 1531 Henry VIII acquired the Hospital of St James (later St. James's Palace) from Eton College, and in 1536 he took the Manor of Ebury from Westminster Abbey. These transfers brought the site of Buckingham Palace back into royal hands for the first time since William the Conqueror had given it away almost 500 years earlier."
• "The improvident Goring defaulted on his rents; Henry Bennet, 1st Earl of Arlington obtained the mansion and was occupying it, now known as Goring House, when it burned down in 1674. Arlington House rose on the site — the southern wing of today's palace — the next year, and its freehold was bought in 1702."
• "(Like his grandfather, George II, George III refused to sell the mulberry garden interest, so that Sheffield had been unable to purchase the full freehold of the site.) The house was originally intended as a private retreat for the royal family, and in particular for Queen Charlotte, and was known as The Queen's House. St. James's Palace remained the official and ceremonial royal residence; indeed, the tradition continues to the present time of foreign ambassadors being formally accredited to "the Court of St. James's", even though it is at Buckingham Palace that they present their credentials and staff to the Queen upon their appointment."
• "The principal rooms of the palace are contained on the piano nobile behind the west-facing garden facade at the rear of the palace. The centre of this ornate suite of state rooms is the Music Room, its large bow the dominant feature of the facade. Flanking the Music Room are the Blue and the White Drawing rooms. At the centre of the suite, serving as a corridor to link the state rooms, is the Picture Gallery, which is top-lit and 55 yards (50 m) long. The Gallery is hung with numerous works including some by Rembrandt, van Dyck, Rubens and Vermeer; other rooms leading from the Picture Gallery are the Throne Room and the Green Drawing Room. The Green Drawing room serves as a huge anteroom to the Throne Room, and is part of the ceremonial route to the throne from the Guard Room at the top of the Grand staircase. The Guard Room contains white marble statues of Queen Victoria and Prince Albert, in Roman costume, set in a tribune lined with tapestries. These very formal rooms are used only for ceremonial and official entertaining, but are open to the public every summer."

• "Directly underneath the State Apartments is a suite of slightly less grand rooms known as the semi-state apartments. Opening from the Marble Hall, these rooms are used for less formal entertaining, such as luncheon parties and private audiences. Some of the rooms are named and decorated for particular visitors, such as the 1844 Room, which was decorated in that year for the State visit of Emperor Nicholas I of Russia, and, on the other side of the Bow Room, the 1855 Room. At the centre of this suite is the Bow Room, through which thousands of guests pass annually to the Queen's Garden Parties in the Gardens beyond. The Queen uses privately a smaller suite of rooms in the North wing."

• and the greatest contemporary musicians entertained at Buckingham Palace. Felix Mendelssohn is known to have played there on three occasions. Johann Strauss II and his orchestra played there when in England. Strauss's "Alice Polka" was first performed at the palace in 1849 in honour of the Queen's daughter, Princess Alice. Under Victoria, Buckingham Palace was frequently the scene of lavish costume balls, in addition to the routine royal ceremonies, investitures and presentations."

• "Between 1847 and 1850, when Blore was building the new east wing, the Brighton Pavilion was once again plundered of its fittings. As a result, many of the rooms in the new wing have a distinctly oriental atmosphere. The red and blue Chinese Luncheon Room is made up from parts of the Brighton banqueting and music rooms, but has a chimney piece, also from Brighton, in design more Indian than Chinese. The Yellow Drawing Room has 18th-century wall paper, which was supplied in 1817 for the Brighton Saloon, and the chimney piece in this room is a European vision of what the Chinese equivalent would look like, complete with nodding mandarins in niches and fearsome winged dragons."

• "At the rear of the palace, large and park-like, is the garden. Which, together with its lake, is the largest private garden in London."
• "Visiting heads of state today, when staying at the palace, occupy a suite of rooms known as the Belgian suite, which is on the ground floor of the North-facing garden front. These rooms, with corridors enhanced by saucer domes, were first decorated for Prince Albert's uncle Léopold I, first King of the Belgians. Edward VIII lived in these rooms during his short reign."
• "There has been a progressive relaxation of the dress code governing formal court uniform and dress. In previous reigns, men not wearing military uniform wore knee breeches of an 18th-century design. Women's evening dress included obligatory trains and tiaras or feathers in their hair (or both). After World War I, when Queen Mary wished to follow fashion by raising her skirts a few inches from the ground, she requested a Lady-in-Waiting to shorten her own skirt first to gauge the King's reaction. King George V was horrified and Queen Mary's hemline remained unfashionably low. Subsequently, King George VI and Queen Elizabeth allowed daytime skirts to rise."

• Investitures, which include the conferring of knighthoods by dubbing with a sword, and other awards take place in the palace's Victorian Ballroom, built in 1854. At 123 by 60 feet (37 by 20 m), this is the largest room in the palace. It has replaced the throne room in importance and use. During investitures, the Queen stands on the throne dais beneath a giant, domed velvet canopy, which is known as a shamiana or a baldachin and was used at the coronation Durbar in Delhi in 1911. A military band plays in the musicians' gallery as the recipients of awards approach the Queen and receive their honours, watched by their families and friends.

  State banquets also take place in the Ballroom. These formal dinners take place on the first evening of a state visit by a visiting Head of State. On these occasions, often over 150 guests in formal "white tie and decorations", including tiaras for women, dine off gold plate. The largest and most formal reception at Buckingham Palace takes place every November, when the Queen entertains members of the foreign diplomatic corps resident in London. On this occasion all the state rooms are in use, as the Royal Family proceed through them beginning their procession through the great north doors of the Picture Gallery. As Nash had envisaged, all the large, double-mirrored doors stand open, reflecting the numerous crystal chandeliers and sconces, causing a deliberate optical illusion of space and light.

  Smaller ceremonies such as the reception of new ambassadors take place in the "1844 Room". Here too the Queen holds small lunch parties, and often meetings of the Privy Council. Larger lunch parties often take place in the curved and domed Music Room, or the State Dining Room. On all formal occasions the ceremonies are attended by the Yeomen of the Guard in their historic uniforms, and other officers of the court such as the Lord Chamberlain.

• "The last major building work took place during the reign of King George V when, in 1913, Sir Aston Webb redesigned Blore's 1850 East Front to resemble in part Giacomo Leoni's Lyme Park in Cheshire. This new, refaced principal facade (of Portland stone) was designed to be the backdrop to the Victoria Memorial, a large memorial statue of Queen Victoria, placed outside the main gates. George V, who had succeeded Edward VII in 1910, had a more serious personality than his father; greater emphasis was now placed on official entertaining and royal duties than on lavish parties. George V's wife Queen Mary was a connoisseur of the arts, and took a keen interest in the royal collection of furniture and art, both restoring and adding to it. Queen Mary also had many new fixtures and fittings installed, such as the pair of marble Empire-style chimneypieces by Benjamin Vulliamy, dating from 1810, which the Queen had installed in the ground floor Bow Room, the huge low room at the centre of the garden facade. Queen Mary was also responsible for the decoration of the Blue Drawing Room. This room, 69 feet (21 m) long, previously known as the South Drawing Room, has one of Nash's finest ceilings, coffered with huge gilt console brackets."
• "While this may seem large, it is small when compared to the Russian imperial palaces in Saint Petersburg and at Tsarskoe Selo, the Papal Palace in Rome, the Royal Palace of Madrid, or indeed the former Palace of Whitehall, and tiny compared to the Forbidden City and Potala Palace. The relative smallness of the palace may be best appreciated from within, looking out over the inner quadrangle. A minor extension was made in 1938, in which the north-west pavilion, designed by Nash, was converted into a swimming pool."

• On 15 September 1940 an RAF pilot, Ray Holmes, rammed a German plane attempting to bomb the palace. Holmes had run out of ammunition and made the quick choice to ram it. Both planes crashed and their pilots survived. This incident was captured on film. The plane's engine was later exhibited at the Imperial War Museum in London. Following the war the British pilot became a King's Messenger. He died at the age of 90 in 2005.

  On VE Day—8 May 1945—the palace was the centre of British celebrations, with the King, Queen and the Princess Elizabeth, the future Queen, and Princess Margaret appearing on the balcony, with the palace's blacked-out windows behind them, to the cheers from a vast crowd in the Mall.</>

  On two occasions a man, Michael Fagan, was able to break into the palace.

• Today, Buckingham Palace is not only the weekday home of the Queen and Prince Philip but also the London residence of the Duke of York and the Earl and Countess of Wessex. The palace also houses the offices of the Royal Household and is the workplace of 450 people.

  Every year some 50,000 invited guests are entertained at garden parties, receptions, audiences, and banquets. The Garden Parties, usually three, are held in the summer, usually in July. The Forecourt of Buckingham Palace is used for Changing of the Guard, a major ceremony and tourist attraction (daily during the summer months; every other day during the winter).

  The palace is technically the monarch's property; both Windsor Castle and Buckingham Palace and their art collections are held in trust for her successors and the nation. Many of the contents from Buckingham Palace, Windsor Castle, Kensington Palace and St James' Palace are known collectively as the Royal Collection; owned by the nation, they can, on occasions, be viewed by the public. The Queen's Gallery near the Royal Mews is open all year and displays a changing selection of items from the collection. The rooms containing the Queen's Gallery are on the site of the former chapel, which was damaged by one of the seven bombs to fall on the palace during World War II. The palace's state rooms have been open to the public during August and September since 1993. The money raised in entry fees was originally put towards the rebuilding of Windsor Castle following the 1992 fire which destroyed many of its state rooms.

• Some of the references that are there do not have page numbers. eg Ref 26, "Hedley, p."

1d neutral

Example

Use of unreferenced peacock words. For example, the word "famous", or "famously" is used three times without references.

2a

• Does not have a concise lead that summarized the topic, per lead. Much of the lead is not mentioned in the article body. The body of the article is not summarized in the lead.

Example from lead that is not from article

The building is occasionally still referred to as "Buck House".

The original early 19th-century interior designs, many of which still survive, included widespread use of brightly coloured scagliola and blue and pink lapis, on the advice of Sir Charles Long. King Edward VII oversaw a partial redecoration in a Belle epoque cream and gold colour scheme. Many smaller reception rooms are furnished in the Chinese regency style with furniture and fittings brought from the Royal Pavilion at Brighton and from Carlton House following the death of King George IV. The Buckingham Palace Garden is the largest private garden in London, originally landscaped by Capability Brown, but redesigned by William Townsend Aiton of Kew Gardens and John Nash. The artificial lake was completed in 1828 and is supplied with water from the Serpentine, a river which runs through Hyde Park.

Hopefully, these problems will soon be remedied by those with the necessary references. Someone who is able to edit the article needs to remove/change the POV phrases. —Mattisse (Talk) 22:42, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

• Oh for goodness sake. I went to the article intending to remove the "famous" adjectives. However, all are appropriate and somewhat understated. These things are certainly famous in the context. But Mattisse, if the "famous" adjective/adverbs annoy you, why didn't you simply remove them, rather than whine here? It would take you all of 2 minutes. Let me invoke that famous maxim "so fix it"!--Scott Mac (Doc) 15:03, 1 February 2009 (UTC)
• A rather excellent article. No doubt it can be improved somewhat in the referening department (most things can). I encourage concerned people to keep working in that, but there is no real reason not to keep it as an FA.--Scott Mac (Doc) 15:06, 1 February 2009 (UTC)
• I can't make any sense of the nomination. 1c) The listed statements do not fall under WP:When to cite#When a source is needed, which is what criterion 1c links to. It does not strictly fall under WP:When to cite#When a source may not be needed, either. But so what? I have no doubt at all that most claims are easily verifiable by reading the books listed under References. Of course, if someone actually wants to go to the trouble of researching and writing all these inline citations, go ahead. 1d) It would be nice to know what the east wing balcony is famous for, but the other two uses of "famous" are justified by their context. I consider this a completely and utterly trivial matter. 2a) A lede can contain illustrative details that are not repeated in the body of the article, while still being a summary of the article under any reasonable interpretation of WP:LEDE.

Overall I am under the impression that the nomination isn't so much a contribution to the content-writing aspect of Misplaced Pages as to the MMORPG aspect. --Hans Adler (talk) 17:07, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

Note: I don't appreciate it when comments that I have replied to are afterwards changed substantially and in such a way that it's hard to see what I did reply to. I am not sufficiently interested in the article to adjust my response to what seems to be a moving target. --Hans Adler (talk) 18:32, 1 February 2009 (UTC) PS: I am not sure if WP:REDACT applies on this kind of page, but I think it should. --18:35, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

• I did not change anything. I merely added more examples to the list. I did add the statement that those of us who are not British may not consider all of this information "common knowledge", the reason given on the article talk page as to why requests by me and others for additional references should be ignored. —Mattisse (Talk) 19:09, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

• I take it that you are going to mark your initial post as edited, with a new timestamp, once you have finished extending it? Unwatching this page, by the way. --Hans Adler (talk) 19:39, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

• Don't know what the hang up is about time stamps, especially as you are Unwatching this page, by the way. But I have tried to change time stamps all over the place to satisfy you. Plus I signed the notifications, since that seems to be a big deal to everyone—although the FAR directions do not require it. —Mattisse (Talk) 20:38, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

• Giano, who wrote the article, has replied briefly and cogently to Mattisse's notification on his page. I suspect he prefers not to get involved in any arguments on FAR, so I might as well link to his statement here. (The "do you have a name" business is in reference to the fact that Mattisse didn't sign the notifications.) Bishonen | talk 18:31, 1 February 2009 (UTC).
• Didn't sign as I was trying to avoid triggering the insults and page blanking directed to me personally (and others) that have accompanied my attempts to improve the page, e.g. from cluttering up this FAR. His personal comments to me on his user page are for him. I do not watch his page and do not know what he said. I understand that it is "his" article, but I believe others can still suggest improvements, even if we are not allowed to edit the page itself. —Mattisse (Talk) 19:09, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

Mattisse, if you've got a "history" with Giano, don't you think that nominating an article that you say is "his" for FAR is provocative, and disruptive, if not in danger of looking like trolling? If the article does require review (and it looks like many people don't think it does) then it should be brought here by someone else. And if it is borderline, then perhaps it would be less disruptive to leave it alone. Yes, Giano can be blunt, aggressive and uncivil at times (don't I know it), but this is looking to be like one case where he's being poked by a stick. I move to close this debate, improvements can be discussed on the article's talk page, and unless anyone other than Mattisse objects I'll close it after a bit.--Scott Mac (Doc) 20:41, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

Reply to Scott Mac (Doc)

• The only reason I have a "history" with Giano is because I tried to edit one of the articles that belongs to him so it is not a very long "history". I spent a lot of time and effort trying to improve this article, offering suggestions on the talk page.
• Giano has a history of incivility with other editors. See Misplaced Pages:Requests_for_comment/Giano_II#Outside_view_by_Sam_Blacketer. The fact that he was uncivil to me is not a reason to dismiss my work, as he has a history of being uncivil to many editors.
• If you close this FAR without due process and a consideration of the merits of the problems I have listed, I will protest. You will be discouraging the maintenance of FA articles that no longer meet Misplaced Pages:Featured article criteria.
• This is a FA article, open to everyone to edit. FA editors are encouraging reevaluation of articles no longer meeting Misplaced Pages:Featured article criteria.
• You are not authorized to make a unilateral decision and close this FAR.

—Mattisse (Talk) 22:42, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

Aawwww, one way to look at it is the fixes might be minor and easy, and it will be a successful return to Featured Glory and we can all get a warm fuzzzy feeling in our stomachs, so let's spread the love around with the royal fambly and see what needs a-tweakin' (it's always nice to see some material stay featured from a review here :) )00:25, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

• I agree that the fixes are not hard for someone with access to the sources and hope that it is done, rather than wasting time protesting. It would be helpful, additionally, to have a greater breadth of referencing, since surely there must be much material on a subject so well known in Britain. —Mattisse (Talk) 00:39, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

• Also, Blaikie, Thomas (2002). You look awfully like the Queen: Wit and Wisdom from the House of Windsor. London: Harper Collins. ISBN 0-00-714874-7 is "popular" collection of more or less trivia bits of information and not a scholarly work. —Mattisse (Talk) 20:38, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

There is an enormous wealth of material on the subject Mattisse, so I suggest you go to your local lending library and acquire it. Giano (talk) 07:03, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

Giano, I don't have a "local lending library" available, but I will accept your suggestion and do what I can with the materials available to me. Thanks for letting me edit the article. —Mattisse (Talk) 20:38, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

This nomination is tendentious, if not vexatious. No doubt this article can be improved, all can. But this isn't "articles for improvement" it is a page for nominating things that are "not fit to remain FAs unless fixed". It seems that no one (bar possibly the nominator) is suggesting this article should be demoted if not immediately improved. Hence, the nomination should be closed, and improvement work (which Mattise seems unwilling to help with) should continue on the article and its talk page. There is really nothing more to be said here. If the fixes are "minor and easy" then there's no need for a debate - either fix them or move on.--Scott Mac (Doc) 09:35, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

• User:Scott MacDonald, you apparently are new here and have mistaken notions about FAR. You have a misunderstanding of the FAR process. Perhaps it would help if you read the instructions. Here is a quotation. (Emphasis added in mine)

Featured article review (FAR)

In this step, possible improvements are discussed without declarations of "keep" or "remove". The aim is to improve articles rather than to demote them. Nominators must specify the featured article criteria that are at issue and should propose remedies. The ideal review would address the issues raised and close with no change in status. Reviews can improve articles in various ways: Articles may need updating, formatting, and general copyediting. More complex issues, such as a failure to meet current standards of prose, comprehensiveness, factual accuracy, and neutrality, may also be addressed.

The featured article director, Raul654, or his delegates Marskell and Joelr31, determine either that there is consensus to close during this first stage, or that there is insufficient consensus to do so and, thus, that the nomination should be moved to the second stage.

• I suggest that if you want to be a helpful reviewer, that you follow the instructions for FAR. Since you have an interest in Buckingham Palace, why not use the energy you use to complain on the improvement of the article instead. That way you would be contributing rather than obstructing. Is your stand that you think the article needs no improvement? —Mattisse (Talk) 16:05, 2 February 2009 (UTC)
  • All feature articles can be improved. But, yes, it is my stance that this article needs no improvement to remain at featured status - and currently you are the only one saying otherwise.--Scott Mac (Doc) 16:40, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

courtesy break

• I do not find that the items highlighted here substantially take away from the idea that this is a featured article, identifing en.wikipedia's best work to date. --Rocksanddirt (talk) 18:29, 2 February 2009 (UTC)
• I fixed the inconsistencies in the formatting of the references to the degree that I could. I cannot find missing page numbers nor missing references, except by referencing the Buckingham Palace official web site, which maybe I will do. Most of the info does seem to be at the official web site. I did a search on Google Scholar and there was only some pop books referenced: collections of anecdotes and such. I would think an article like this would have many good references at least comparable to the White House (which isn't even a FA) where a scholar can find more good references for indepth information. —Mattisse (Talk) 18:54, 2 February 2009 (UTC)