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	Barack Obama is a featured article; it (or a previous version of it) has been identified as one of the best articles produced by the Misplaced Pages community. Even so, if you can update or improve it, please do so.
	This article appeared on Misplaced Pages's Main Page as Today's featured article on November 4, 2008.
Article milestones Date Process Result August 12, 2004 Featured article candidate Promoted August 18, 2004 Today's featured article Main Page January 23, 2007 Featured article review Kept July 26, 2007 Featured article review Kept April 15, 2008 Featured article review Kept September 16, 2008 Featured article review Kept November 4, 2008 Today's featured article Main Page December 2, 2008 Featured article review Kept A news item involving this article was featured on Misplaced Pages's Main Page in the "In the news" column on November 5, 2008. Current status: Featured article

view · edit Frequently asked questions To view the response to a question, click the link to the right of the question. Family and religious background Q1: Why isn't Barack Obama's Muslim heritage or education included in this article? A1: Barack Obama was never a practitioner of Islam. His biological father having been "raised as a Muslim" but being a "confirmed atheist" by the time Obama was born is mentioned in the article. Please see this article on Snopes.com for a fairly in-depth debunking of the myth that Obama is Muslim. Barack Obama did not attend an Islamic or Muslim school while living in Indonesia age 6–10, but Roman Catholic and secular public schools. See , , The sub-articles Public image of Barack Obama and Barack Obama religion conspiracy theories address this issue. Q2: The article refers to him as African American, but his mother is white and his black father was not an American. Should he be called African American, or something else ("biracial", "mixed", "Kenyan-American", "mulatto", "quadroon", etc.)? A2: Obama himself and the media identify him, the vast majority of the time, as African American or black. African American is primarily defined as "citizens or residents of the United States who have origins in any of the black populations of Africa", a statement that accurately describes Obama and does not preclude or negate origins in the white populations of America as well. Thus we use the term African American in the introduction, and address the specifics of his parentage in the first headed section of the article. Many individuals who identify as black have varieties of ancestors from many countries who may identify with other racial or ethnic groups. See our article on race for more information on this concept. We could call him the first "biracial" candidate or the first "half black half white" candidate or the first candidate with a parent born in Africa, but Misplaced Pages is a tertiary source which reports what other reliable sources say, and most of those other sources say "first African American". Readers will learn more detail about his ethnic background in the article body. Q3: Why can't we use his full name outside of the lead? It's his name, isn't it? A3: The relevant part of the Manual of Style says that outside the lead of an article on a person, that person's conventional name is the only one that's appropriate. (Thus one use of "Richard Milhous Nixon" in the lead of Richard Nixon, "Richard Nixon" thereafter.) Talk page consensus has also established this. Q4: Why is Obama referred to as "Barack Hussein Obama II" in the lead sentence rather than "Barack Hussein Obama, Jr."? Isn't "Jr." more common? A4: Although "Jr." is typically used when a child shares the name of his or her parent, "II" is considered acceptable, as well. And in Obama's case, the usage on his birth certificate is indeed "II", and is thus the form used at the beginning of this article, per manual of style guidelines on names. Q5: Why don't we cover the claims that Obama is not a United States citizen, his birth certificate was forged, he was not born in Hawaii, he is ineligible to be President, etc? A5: The Barack Obama article consists of an overview of major issues in the life and times of the subject. The controversy over his eligibility, citizenship, birth certificate etc is currently a fairly minor issue in overall terms, and has had no significant legal or mainstream political impact. It is therefore not currently appropriate for inclusion in an overview article. These claims are covered separately in Barack Obama citizenship conspiracy theories. Controversies, praise, and criticism Q6: Why isn't there a criticisms/controversies section? A6: Because a section dedicated to criticisms and controversies is no more appropriate than a section dedicated solely to praise and is an indication of a poorly written article. Criticisms/controversies/praises should be worked into the existing prose of the article, per the Criticism essay. Q7: Why isn't a certain controversy/criticism/praise included in this article? A7: Misplaced Pages's Biography of living persons policy says that "riticism and praise of the subject should be represented if it is relevant to the subject's notability and can be sourced to reliable secondary sources, and so long as the material is written in a manner that does not overwhelm the article or appear to take sides; it needs to be presented responsibly, conservatively, and in a neutral, encyclopedic tone." Criticism or praise that cannot be reliably sourced cannot be placed in a biography. Also, including everything about Obama in a single article would exceed Misplaced Pages's article size restrictions. A number of sub-articles have been created and some controversies/criticisms/praises have been summarized here or been left out of this article altogether, but are covered in some detail in the sub-articles. Q8: But this controversy/criticism/praise is all over the news right now! It should be covered in detail in the main article, not buried in a sub-article! A8: Misplaced Pages articles should avoid giving undue weight to something just because it is in the news right now. If you feel that the criticism/controversy/praise is not being given enough weight in this article, you can try to start a discussion on the talk page about giving it more. See WP:BRD. Q9: This article needs much more (or much less) criticism/controversy. A9: Please try to assume good faith. Like all articles on Misplaced Pages, this article is a work in progress so it is possible for biases to exist at any point in time. If you see a bias that you wish to address, you are more than welcome to start a new discussion, or join in an existing discussion, but please be ready to provide sources to support your viewpoint and try to keep your comments civil. Starting off your discussion by accusing the editors of this article of having a bias is the quickest way to get your comment ignored. Talk and article mechanics Q10: This article is over 275kb long, and the article size guideline says that it should be broken up into sub-articles. Why hasn't this happened? A10: The restriction mentioned in WP:SIZE is 60kB of readable prose, not the byte count you see when you open the page for editing. As of May 11, 2016, this article had about 10,570 words of readable prose (65 kB according to prosesize tool), only slightly above the guideline. The rest is mainly citations and invisible comments, which do not count towards the limit. Q11: I notice this FAQ mentions starting discussions or joining in on existing discussions a lot. If Misplaced Pages is supposed to be the encyclopedia anyone can edit, shouldn't I just be bold and fix any biases that I see in the article? A11: It is true that Misplaced Pages is the encyclopedia that anyone can edit and no one needs the permission of other editors of this article to make changes to it. But Misplaced Pages policy is that, "While the consensus process does not require posting to the discussion page, it can be useful and is encouraged." This article attracts editors that have very strong opinions about Obama (positive and negative) and these editors have different opinions about what should and should not be in the article, including differences as to appropriate level of detail. As a result of this it may be helpful, as a way to avoid content disputes, to seek consensus before adding contentious material to or removing it from the article. Q12: The article/talk page has been vandalized! Why hasn't anyone fixed this? A12: Many editors watch this article, and it is unlikely that vandalism would remain unnoticed for long. It is possible that you are viewing a cached result of the article; If so, try bypassing your cache. Disruption Q13: Why are so many discussions closed so quickly? A13: Swift closure is common for topics that have already been discussed repeatedly, topics pushing fringe theories, and topics that would lead to violations of Misplaced Pages's policy concerning biographies of living persons, because of their disruptive nature and the unlikelihood that consensus to include the material will arise from the new discussion. In those cases, editors are encouraged to read this FAQ for examples of such common topics. Q14: I added new content to the article, but it was removed! A14: Double-check that your content addition is not sourced to an opinion blog, editorial, or non-mainstream news source. Misplaced Pages's policy on biographies of living persons states, in part, "Material about living persons must be sourced very carefully. Without reliable third-party sources, it may include original research and unverifiable statements, and could lead to libel claims." Sources of information must be of a very high quality for biographies. While this does not result in an outright ban of all blogs and opinion pieces, most of them are regarded as questionable. Inflammatory or potentially libelous content cited to a questionable source will be removed immediately without discussion. Q15: I disagree with the policies and content guidelines that prevent my proposed content from being added to the article. A15: That's understandable. Misplaced Pages is a work in progress. If you do not approve of a policy cited in the removal of content, it's possible to change it. Making cogent, logical arguments on the policy's talk page is likely to result in a positive alteration. This is highly encouraged. However, this talk page is not the appropriate place to dispute the wording used in policies and guidelines. If you disagree with the interpretation of a policy or guideline, there is also recourse: Dispute resolution. Using the dispute resolution process prevents edit wars, and is encouraged. Q16: I saw someone start a discussion on a topic raised by a blog/opinion piece, and it was reverted! A16: Unfortunately, due to its high profile, this talk page sees a lot of attempts to argue for policy- and guideline-violating content – sometimes the same violations many times a day. These are regarded as disruptive, as outlined above. Consensus can change; material previously determined to be unacceptable may become acceptable. But it becomes disruptive and exhausting when single-purpose accounts raise the same subject(s) repeatedly in the apparent hopes of overcoming significant objections by other editors. Editors have reached a consensus for dealing with this behavior: Efforts by established single-purpose accounts to introduce such poorly-sourced content will be summarily deleted. On the second such attempt, the source in question will be immediately reported to the reliable sources noticeboard for administrative assistance. New editors who wish to engage in discussions on previously rejected content are encouraged to ensure that their sources do not violate any of Misplaced Pages's policies and sourcing guidelines. Other Q17: Why aren't the 2008 and 2012 presidential campaigns covered in more detail? A17: They are, in sub-articles called Barack Obama 2008 presidential campaign and Barack Obama 2012 presidential campaign. Things that are notable in the context of the presidential campaigns, but are of minimal notability to Barack Obama's overall biography, belong in the sub-articles. Campaign stops, the presidential debates, and the back-and-forth accusations and claims of the campaigns can all be found there.

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Discussions on this page often lead to previous arguments being restated. Please read recent comments, look in the archives, and review the FAQ before commenting.

Archives

Index 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37, 38, 39, 40 41, 42, 43, 44, 45, 46, 47, 48, 49, 50 51, 52, 53, 54, 55, 56, 57, 58, 59, 60 61, 62, 63, 64, 65, 66, 67, 68, 69, 70 71, 72, 73, 74, 75, 76, 77, 78, 79, 80 81, 82, 83, 84

Special discussion pages /Article probation /Article probation/Incidents /Historical diffs /weight /race

This page has archives. Sections older than 7 days may be automatically archived by Lowercase sigmabot III when more than 5 sections are present.

Redundant discussions

In case anyone is wondering if they have an original comment about one of the frequently-discussed issues for this article, here is a list of discussions at length which have taken place just in the past couple of months.

Race

• Talk:Barack Obama/race
• Talk:Barack Obama/Archive 47#Barack Obama is half-white
• Talk:Barack Obama/Archive 46#Ethnicity in first sentence
• Talk:Barack Obama/Archive 46#Media coverage of ethnicity controversy and the intro
• Talk:Barack Obama/Archive 46#Mulatto, the term is Mullato
• Talk:Barack Obama/Archive 44#He's Multi-Racial.
• Talk:Barack Obama/Archive 43#Obama and race

Religion

• Talk:Barack Obama/Archive 47#Religon
• Talk:Barack Obama/Archive 46#Religion

Citizenship

• Talk:Barack Obama/Archive 46#Supreme Court Controversy
• Talk:Barack Obama/Archive 45#Still no mention on the birth certificate?
• Talk:Barack Obama/Archive 45#Donofrio v. Wells
• Talk:Barack Obama/Archive 44#Unverified Birth Hospital Needs Revision and Reference

Full name

• Talk:Barack Obama/Archive 46#Article Name
• Talk:Barack Obama/Archive 44#Barack Hussein Obama JR, not II

Give this some consideration before deciding to start another one. Bigbluefish (talk) 14:24, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

Please skim this page first (and ideally the FAQ) before starting a new discussion on the "president elect" designation, or Obama's race/ethnicity. You'll probably find there's already a section there where you can add your comments. Thanks, Wikidemon (talk) 00:09, 6 November 2008 (UTC)

Disambiguation

This article is under the "Big O" disambiguation page? Really? I mean....really? I have never heard any source whatsoever call Obama the "Big O."--Ryudo (talk) 10:01, 8 February 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for spotting that. Someone must have just been having some fun on the disambiguation page. I'll check it out and probably remove the link.Wikidemon (talk) 17:59, 8 February 2009 (UTC)

Multiple unexplained redirections to Barack Obama

WHY? Both "Barack" and "Obama" redirects to this article directly. So both surname and even the first name! Just a quick try shows that this isn't true for the last president: "George" or "Bush" doesn't redirects to George W. Bush rocks Can somebody give me a clue? I would redirect them to the disambiguation page. Pikacsu (talk) 23:10, 9 February 2009 (UTC)

In the English language, "George" is an extremely common name, and "bush" is most often associated with plant-life, not the former Presidents. "Barack" and "Obama" on the other hand are almost universally associated with the current President. In cases like that, it makes sense to have them redirect to this article instead of disambiguation. --GoodDamon 23:18, 9 February 2009 (UTC)

Perhaps you should read WP:Redirect, but the short form is that in cases where there is a primary usage of a term where that term is not the name of the article, then a redirect is used. In the case of Obama, there was a discussion at Talk:Obama (disambiguation) about whether it should be a redirect or a dab page back in 2007 and it seems redirect won out there. There was also a discussion on Talk:Barack_(brandy) about whether that article should be move to Barack or remain a redirect here and it seems there was no consensus on moving Barack (brandy) over the redirect. As far as why George and Bush are not redirects to the article on George W. Bush, I can think of a couple reasons why George isn't. --Bobblehead 23:30, 9 February 2009 (UTC)

I presume you were replying to Pikacsu, not me? --GoodDamon 23:50, 9 February 2009 (UTC)

Actually both names are not very common. Redirects to this article seems to be OK. By the way, if you just type in Nixon, it will take you to Richard Nixon's article, so there is precident for this particular redirect.--Jojhutton (talk) 00:17, 10 February 2009 (UTC)

And you are correct, GoodDamon.;) My comment was aimed at Pikacsu. :) --Bobblehead 00:42, 10 February 2009 (UTC)

Besides it saves having to type both names and/or learn to spell both names for that matter (n'yuk n'yuk)Natwebb (talk) 07:15, 16 February 2009 (UTC)

Obama's picture

Why is his picture not centered? His face is off to the right, why is this? Do we not have a better one lol? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Felliph3 (talk • contribs) 01:56, 14 February 2009 (UTC)

It's his official presidential photo, and it's free. Those are two excellent reasons to keep it in the infobox. It's probably not centered so the flag can be seen behind him. His official photo may be replaced some day, so then it can change. Ward3001 (talk) 02:06, 14 February 2009 (UTC)

Allegations of vote fraud

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.

Wikidemon (talk) 02:38, 16 February 2009 (UTC)

occupation section of sidebar

So we've got community organizer, lawyer, and author... How about President? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 199.111.183.10 (talk) 18:45, 15 February 2009 (UTC)

Look right under his photo in the infobox. Ward3001 (talk) 18:58, 15 February 2009 (UTC)

Stimulus Presidency

Shouldn't the summary mention briefly that he inherited the subprime crisis and has worked to pass the stimulus bill through congress? Agree or disagree, it's likely to be one of the earliest defining actions of his presidency. Could wait until Tuesday until it becomes law, but it definitely should be mentioned IMO. -137.222.114.243 (talk) 19:50, 15 February 2009 (UTC)

Maybe see the page dedicated to his presidency.Die4Dixie (talk) 20:59, 15 February 2009 (UTC)

Yes, mention of the passed stimulus is def. worthy of inclusion as it's the biggest thing he's passed in office. Not to mention that it's $800 billion.--Loodog (talk) 15:57, 16 February 2009 (UTC)

This would be the wrong article to talk about specific bills, unless they had some biographical relevance. -- Scjessey (talk) 15:29, 17 February 2009 (UTC)

Then let's do something about the rescindment of the Mexico City Policy, the closure of Guantanamo and the executive order on presidential records. Seriously, all of these things combine to define the type of president Obama has been so far, which is a defining part of his biography. As for the stimulus bill, it's huge. I would guess it will define his presidency at least half as much as the New Deal did FDR. If it's exceptionally successful or unsuccessful, make that more. My reluctance to get stuck into editing this section is that it's such a volatile area, but that shouldn't hold anyone back from keeping it current. The lack of mention of the stimulus bill is IMO currently a minor weight issue. Bigbluefish (talk) 17:32, 17 February 2009 (UTC)

Columbia University Error

After 2 years at Occidental, Barack transferred to Columbia College in Chicago, not Columbia University in New York. JackMacy (talk) 21:47, 15 February 2009 (UTC)

Okay, you made me look :(. The answer is no. Even your source doesn't say that. Sigh... Bigbluefish (talk) 23:42, 15 February 2009 (UTC)

JackMacy is confusing Columbia College, a sub-school of Columbia University, New York (which is the school Obama DID go to) with the very different Columbia College, and independent school in Chicago. There are several other Columbia Colleges out there, and Obama most certainly attended the one in New York. --Jayron32.talk.contribs 04:23, 16 February 2009 (UTC)

British citizenship

I WOULD SUBMIT THAT INCLUDING THE FOLLOWING INFORMATION IN THIS ARTICLE IS APPROPRIATE. IT IS ACCURATE, NEUTRAL, INTERESTING AND SUPPORTED BY FACTUAL REFERENCE. IT IS IN NO WAY OFFENSIVE, DEFAMATORY OR PROFANE.

It does not dispute his USA citizenship or his entitlement to be president based on birth. In fact the proposed footnote says "Barack Obama Jr. was both a U.S. citizen (by virtue of being born in Hawaii) and a citizen of the United Kingdom and Colonies (or the UKC) by virtue of being born to a father who was a citizen of the UKC."

USA law does not prohibit dual citizeship (http://travel.state.gov/travel/cis_pa_tw/cis/cis_1753.html). Supreme Court rulings in United_States_v._Wong_Kim_Ark (1898), Perkins v. Elg (1939), Mandoli v. Acheson, 344 U.S. 133 (1952), Kawakita v. U.S. (1952), Afroyim_v._Rusk 387 U.S. 253 (1967) and Vance v. Terrazas 444 U.S. 252 (1980), address citizenship.

Similar information is included in the William Henry Harrison article (and is usually included in any biography of President Harrison without controversy). It seems uncontroversal here as well.

The fact of the matter is that he held dual citizenship in the USA and the British Empire at birth. He lost the British citizenship on December 12, 1963 and became a citizen of Kenya. Thus from December 12, 1963 until August 4, 1982 he held dual citizenship in the USA and Kenya. He lost Kenyan citizenship on his 21st birthday.

Suggested Text:

Obama is the first President of the United States to have been born a British Citizen since William Henry Harrison.

Suggested footnote:

When Barack Obama Jr. was born in 1961 Kenya was a British colony. As a Kenyan native, Barack Obama Sr. was a British subject whose citizenship status and the citizenship of his children was governed by The British Nationality Act of 1948 (Part II, Section 5): "Subject to the provisions of this section, a person born after the commencement of this Act shall be a citizen of the United Kingdom and Colonies by descent if his father is a citizen of the United Kingdom and Colonies at the time of the birth." Therefore, at the time of his birth, Barack Obama Jr. was both a U.S. citizen (by virtue of being born in Hawaii) and a citizen of the United Kingdom and Colonies (or the UKC) by virtue of being born to a father who was a citizen of the UKC.

see also http://www.factcheck.org/askfactcheck/does_barack_obama_have_kenyan_citizenship.html & http://en.wikipedia.org/British_Overseas_citizen

Natwebb (talk) 07:19, 16 February 2009 (UTC)

The factcheck.org link that you provide does back up the gist of what you say. But you'd be more persuasive if you eschewed announcements in BOLD CAPITALS. Next question: Is this little matter of sufficient noteworthiness to deserve a mention in this article? Perhaps this article should be limited to material publicized in the mainstream media. (By the I mean newspapers that present news, not "Fox News", AM radio and so forth.) Has this been so publicized? If so, where? If not, what makes you think it's so important? Morenoodles (talk) 07:20, 16 February 2009 (UTC)

Pass. You've got to have a reliable source to be able to include this stuff in Wiki. All you have is a link to a website that admits the Rocky Mountain News writer was wrong and some original research on your part, neither of which is sufficient grounds for inclusion. Newguy34 (talk) 07:26, 16 February 2009 (UTC)

The website doesn't "admit" the RMN writer was wrong, it says he was wrong. It then goes on to say what Natwebb says above, pretty much. Where's the OR? Of course there are other objections to Natwebb's proposal. Morenoodles (talk) 08:01, 16 February 2009 (UTC)

He says "tomato", she says "round, fruitlike veggie". The simple fact is that the sole RS on the subject that has been produced by anyone is the since-retracted article from the RMN. If we had something from ABC, BBC, MSNBC, Fox News, etc. then we could consider. Newguy34 (talk) 08:10, 16 February 2009 (UTC)

Uh, hello? The tomato is a fruit, so perhaps that wasn't the best rhetorical flourish. Here's what the RMN wrongly said: Holds both American and Kenyan (since 1963) citizenship. Here's one part of what the factcheck.org article says: at the time of his birth, Barack Obama Jr. was both a U.S. citizen (by virtue of being born in Hawaii) and a citizen of the United Kingdom and Colonies (or the UKC) by virtue of being born to a father who was a citizen of the UKC. Factcheck.org, which is a highly regarded authority (to my mind, hugely more so than "Fox News"), is quite persuasive about this. And it's something close to this -- and not some discredited silliness about how Obama is British now -- that Natwebb wants to add. His most recent addition of it has an edit summary THAT'S ALL IN CAPS, which of course isn't the right way to win friends and influence people. But its removal had an edit summary with a completely unjustified charge of tinfoil nuttery. Let's cut the crap: the US has a small but energetic minority of far-right nutballs who are so utterly bankrupt of ideas that they'll seize on the most trivial ambiguity about Obama in order to hang a loony conspiracy on it; also, Natwebb's addition is compatible with their rubbish (just as his use of capitals fits their rhetorical style). However, Natwebb has been polite, his addition was sourced, and the mere fact that what he wrote is compatible with far-right idiocy goes no more to prove it is either far-right idiocy or "tinfoil nuttery" than my occasional appreciation of the convenience of (Hitler-dictated) autobahns goes to prove that I'm a Nazi. This doesn't mean that Natwebb's addition should stay; indeed, I think it should go, as not of demonstrable significance. Nevertheless, we should read, or at least spend several seconds glancing at, what it is that Natwebb asserts. Morenoodles (talk) 08:39, 16 February 2009 (UTC)

What I proposed was the simple statement of fact, much like the simple statement of fact in the William Henry Harrison article. I agree that the lead is probably not the place for it. Early life was suggested and I expect that it is a better place. I note also that this proposal seems to have resulted in revision (vandalism) of the William Henry Harrison article. Additionally the level of vigilance given to this article seems sufficient to avoid the slippery slope argument (unlike William Henry Harrison).--Natwebb (talk) 04:04, 18 February 2009 (UTC)

If there were a source that is more reliable and more to the point than those given, I think a brief mention of Obama's (possible) dual citizenship during his early life might be possible to include in "Early life". It's definitely not lead material or anything like that. But we need some sources that say this in clear, non-retracted, and factual manners... some WP:OR about what "must be true" is no good. LotLE×talk 08:29, 16 February 2009 (UTC)

Factcheck.org says it, right here. (Please keep reading that page beyond the start, in which it debunks the sloppy newspaper article.) Never heard of factcheck.org? Here's Timothy Garton Ash praising it in the Guardian, and here's an approving citation of it by none other than Dick Cheney. (Well, that's the kiss of death for sure.) NB I'd like to see it stated somewhere else, and I'm not sure that it's all that important. Morenoodles (talk) 09:11, 16 February 2009 (UTC)

All very (slightly?) interesting trivia, worth perhaps 1/2 a sentence in a chronological account of the circumstances of his birth and childhood, if such can be integrated in a way that enlightens rather than distracts form a telling of the life story.Wikidemon (talk) 10:32, 16 February 2009 (UTC)

There are very few if any very reliable sources (I.E. ABC, CNN, NBC, AP, New York Times, Washington Times Post, etc) that mention his possible dual citizenship. The argument to include this boils down to this: we must include it so that people know that he had a dual citizenship. Boiled down even further and the true motives behind trying to include this is to enable those claiming the citizenship conspiracy is real. One thing that must remembered is that if something like this is included, then some person doing research, who is a little bit lazy, will come to this article and look at the information presented, then say that it is fact. Then we will start to see this in various places including news articles, editorials, etc because they saw it in Misplaced Pages. That is why we need at least a couple very reliable sources to back up the information before we even present it in the article. Just because it seems to you to be important, interesting, or recent, is not a good justification to include it into the article. Brothejr (talk) 10:37, 16 February 2009 (UTC)

Washington Times a reliable source? Whew! You say: Boiled down even further and the true motives behind trying to include this is to enable those claiming the citizenship conspiracy is real. Maybe, maybe not -- either way, aren't we supposed to "AGF"? (Sure, my good-faith-assumption gland shrivels in the face of BOLD CAPS, but I try to be open minded. Yes, all right, "Obama was very briefly British too" is compatible with the obsessions of nutballs. But if you remove from Misplaced Pages everything that happens to be compatible with nutball obsessions, you remove some facts and material of value. However, I think you're right in one way: let's wait till this momentous fact (???) makes it to more news sources worth attending to (Die Zeit, Le Monde, NYT, Guardian, Washington Post, Reuter) before adding it to this article. Morenoodles (talk) 11:03, 16 February 2009 (UTC)

The problem here is the old slippery slope. Analogous to the anti-abortion crowd who, having have failed to get abortion rights overturned outright, have gone pecking around the edges, proposing small bills to make things slightly more restrictive then build on that with more, etc... The citizenship conspiracy theorists, having failed utterly on the main front, are trying to slink in the side door, to try to establish that possessing dual citizenship can invalidate one from being a "natural-born citizen". What dual citizenship Obama may or may not have had...a citizenship lost at age 2 (British) and at then at age 21 (Kenyan)...is about as trivial as the left-handedness issue is. Summation; I cannot accept that this entry is being proposed in good faith. Bad faith does not automatically invalidate the proposed material, but that and the apparent trivial nature of the material is strike 1 and strike 2, IMO. Discussing the history of his birth and who his mother and father were is a natural part of history. Delving into the actually citizenship of any of the three is where ulterior motives here come into play. Tarc (talk) 15:41, 16 February 2009 (UTC)

Seems like a bit of trivia too obscure to be worth mentioning. -137.222.114.243 (talk) 17:13, 16 February 2009 (UTC)

Indeed - consider that the article is almost entirely sourced by references that deal with Obama biographically - that is, they assert some sort of notability to the facts even if implicitly. The source here very much approaches the subject from the perspective of slightly facetious trivia. Bigbluefish (talk) 22:38, 16 February 2009 (UTC)

Agree with Tarc. this is the chipping away - if included, it will soon be followed by some whacked out 'you can't have had two citizenships and still be president' jazz, which is totally nonsensical in the face of the first dozen or so presidents, born before the start of the nation. This is the same racist right wing nonsense attacks we see all over the fringes of the net, and should be summarily rejected. Regrettably, we will spend the next 4 or 8 years dealing with this, as some people can't accept that a non-white person is president, or that he might actually succeed at fixing the economy. The rancor from the right is expansive, and will only grow over the next 4 years. ThuranX (talk) 00:03, 17 February 2009 (UTC)

Well, I share all yall's suspicion that the British thing is bogus, but we do decide things by reliable sources around here and not slippery slope arguments. To date I haven't taken any of this seriously enough to look at in detail but I suspect the honest sourceable truth may be that Obama originally had dual Kenyan citizenship or an opportunity for the same but chose by his actions to be solely a US citizen, which became irreversible at some point. If that's true and ends up being sourced to and not contradicted by plentiful major sources of the type we can accept around here (say neutral books about him, newspapers, whitehouse.gov, etc) then sure, it's worth a parenthetical or half a sentence in a chronological account of his life, something like "Born on xxxx in Hawaii to a Kenyan father and American mother, Obama was initially eligible for dual Kenyan citizenship but chose only to..." (totally made up - just laying out the kind of language that would be neutral, fair, and non-sensationalistic if true and sourced). Just from the look of things, one's citizenship trajectory even if a technical matter is of some nontrivial importance in one's biography. On the other hand any synthesis or digression into constitutional matters and eligibility for the Presidency belongs if anywhere on some article far removed from this one. If nobody seriously challenges his legitimacy (the conspiracy theorists so far do not count as serious, and it would be hard to imagine anyone will be serious) then all that stuff is trivia. Not a slippery slope, more like a gaping precipice of common sense and reason, with a cliff's rlim that's pretty clearly delineated. Wikidemon (talk) 00:45, 17 February 2009 (UTC)

I had the same initial thought, right down to a similar premise for inclusion in a similar construction, but ultimately, without context to how it affected and shaped his thought processes, personality, and politics, it's just a wedge. IF such material can be found, then, and only then, could I accept inclusion, in the quiet manner you suggest. On its own, however, it's inflammatory material placed without context to create alarmist 'traitor president' nonsense. ThuranX (talk) 00:49, 17 February 2009 (UTC)

There seems an extraordinary willingness to see far-right nutballs at work here, and to do the reverse of "AGF". It's analogy time. Can we accept for a moment that Obama's middle name is Hussein? No doubt the Limbaugh-listening demographic likes to use this fact to suggest that Obama is Muslim, that Obama is going to bring on the Caliphate, that Obama is the antichrist, or I don't know what. But the compatibility of this fact with nutball delusions doesn't make it untrue or (in the minds of moderately educated and open-minded people) even make it unfortunate. And now, back to the matter, or non-issue, of childhood nationality. An article in factcheck.org asserts that, while Obama has always been a US citizen, he long ago also had one or other of two other nationalities. I have several reactions to this, among them: (i) "Oh, that's (very mildly) interesting, if true." (ii) "Hang on, this is the kind of thing that sells US newspapers. Why isn't it there as well?" And so I'm in no hurry to add it. On the other hand, I warmly suggest that people here don't assume that a fact (if it gets more evidence of being factual) is inflammatory material placed to create alarmist 'traitor president' nonsense: of course some morons will take it that way, but the mere fact that Obama is neither "white" nor a crony capitalist is probably enough to set them off without this additional titillating tidbit. Misplaced Pages articles should not be dumbed down in an attempt to avoid any risk of inflaming fools. As for the call for context to how affected and shaped his thought processes, personality, and politics, this is quite unreasonable, as you must surely know; it's also utterly unlike the way in which Misplaced Pages works: consider Nicolas Sarkozy, which is an article that's sure to be policed; yet after a paragraph about the Hungarian half of Sarko's family tree, and a Hungarian half of a graphic representation of this tree, the article says Sarkozy's father Paul did not teach him or his brothers Hungarian. There is no evidence suggesting that there was an attempt to educate the Sarkozy siblings about their paternal ethnic background. Morenoodles (talk) 08:54, 17 February 2009 (UTC)

← I'm with Tarc and Thuran on this. I find it hard to see this as anything other than an attempt to back-door bogus citizenship questions. In addition, this factoid has not been shown to have any relevance to the man's life and career, which is what this biography covers. We make decisions all the time about what goes in here or not - and I mean valid, verifiable, well-sourced points of interest - because of space and weight concerns, and we have left out many items from this biography for those reasons. This is trivia, and unless some relevance can be attached to how it affected his life, his thinking, his educational and career decisions, etc., and unless we have good sourcing for it, it doesn;t belong here. We don't even have a source that verifies that he even knew about this at his 21st birthday or any time later until perhaps the recent intense interest in his birthright. For example, does he talk in his memoir about deciding not to affirm Kenyan citizenship? Has he acknowledged this anywhere? Did it have any impact on his life whatsoever? Tvoz/talk 10:00, 17 February 2009 (UTC)

And by the way - my reading of the factcheck piece is that it itself is what we would classify as synthesis - they don't quote sources that confirm Obama's actions, inactions, decisions, or knowledge of any of this - they take the facts about Kenyan law and make an assumption about Obama's status. That's not the kind of sourcing we would accept even if we wanted to include this. Tvoz/talk 10:14, 17 February 2009 (UTC)

Just a quick point of order: We can accept the syntheses of reliable third party sources, and do on almost every article on the project. We are only perscribed from making those syntheses ourselves, instead relying on reliable 3rd party sources to make them for us. That said, I have no opinion on this. Possible backdoor arguments have no place in countering properly reliably sourced material. The true argument seems to be WP:IDONTLIKEIT, which is not a valid argument for non inclusion either.Die4Dixie (talk) 10:23, 17 February 2009 (UTC)

To add onto D4D's comment, this is also a WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT argument. No reliable sources mentions his dual citizenship if he truely had one. To garner any such information from other sources would be synthesis and original research. Brothejr (talk) 10:31, 17 February 2009 (UTC)

This is an angle of the situation that I had not thought of. Perhaps we need to ammend the Harrison article to reflect this information. It is odd though to pick and choose sources to suit the POV. I wouldn't say that being born with dual citizenship would disqualify Obama, if the other articles on other presidents talk about it, then it should be added here.--Jojhutton (talk) 17:43, 17 February 2009 (UTC)

ThuranX wrote: context to how it affected and shaped his thought processes, personality, and politics could I accept inclusion. I pointed out that such a stringent requirement is cruel and unusual, and showed how it's not observed--not just unobserved in this or that junky article but instead unobserved in the vigorously edited and carefully watched article on Sarkozy. So I thought I'd demolished that argument. But no, Tvoz followed up my comment with unless some relevance can be attached to how it affected his life, his thinking, his educational and career decisions, etc., it doesn;t belong here. I'm perfectly willing to have my argument shown to be defective or wrong, but I sense that I am instead attempting in vain to argue with people who have already made their minds up. Morenoodles (talk) 08:15, 18 February 2009 (UTC)

Under British law, he was a dual citizen. Since the USA does not abide by British law. The USA recognizes him as a Natural Born Citizen of Hawaii. It is a bit of interesting trivia that british law would regard him as a citizen until the early 80's, however since we go by US law in the US. It's not noteworthy. He was not born a British Citizen. He was born an American, seeing as how thats where he was born, in america. Had he been born in British governed land, then he'd be a British citizen. --DemocraplypseNow (talk) 18:11, 17 February 2009 (UTC)

This kind of analysis is unnecessary. For a start, as I understand it US law doesn't allow you to be recognised as a British citizen (except under the age of 21?). So the UK diplomatic status would be relevant anyway. But this is about the article, and there is no reliable source for anything about this subject so let it lie. Bigbluefish (talk) 19:34, 17 February 2009 (UTC)

I agree, Wait until there is a reliable source.--Jojhutton (talk) 19:44, 17 February 2009 (UTC)

see British_Citizenship and British Overseas Citizen. The footnote I proposed makes it clear that this British citizenship was short-lived (as was that of William Henry Harrison) and I do not suggest it is an impediment to his presidency. What could be more reliable a source than reference to the laws of Great Britain on the subject? Frankly, as I composed the footnote it began much longer and was shortened as a three paragraph footnote seemed too much. It can also be footnoted to the text of the referenced British law: http://www.uniset.ca/naty/BNA1948.htm and http://www.uniset.ca/naty/BNA1965.htm (European Nationality law finder at http://uniset.ca/). I have kept this non-partisan and hope others can too. --Natwebb (talk) 04:37, 18 February 2009 (UTC)

DN's kind of analysis isn't merely unnecessary, it doesn't even merit the term "analysis". First DN seems to concede that Obama briefly was regarded by the British as a British citizen. Then DN suggests something very bizarre about US citizenship. I suggest that the US recognizes Obama has a natural born citizen because he qualifies as a natural born citizen, and not at all because the US doesn't abide by British law. Then DN says that "he was born an American", a fact that nobody here has questioned and also one that's irrelevant to whether he was ever additionally British. Look, if Y is a nation, the question of whether person X has Y nationality is a matter for Y to decide, and not for X, let alone for nation Z. If the British briefly regarded him as British (as has been asserted), then he was British. If it can be shown that he was British (and I'm not certain that it has), then we have an additional fact t consider. All sorts of facts about Obama are too trivial to go in the article, and it's arguable that a fact such as this (if it is indeed a fact) is trivial too. There is no reliable source for anything about this subject says Bigbluefish. I agree says Jojhutton. There is a reliable source, and it's called factcheck.org. Whether factcheck.org is adequate as a single reliable source for an assertion, if true, one would expect to find in other reliable sources--now that is a good question. Morenoodles (talk) 08:06, 18 February 2009 (UTC)

Citizenship laws are very complicated when it comes to dual nationals because often laws conflict and new born babies can't choose their citizenship. As I've understood it, US law has allowed for its citizens to hold dual nationality with no problems (although officials can be petty - British politician Boris Johnson was born in New York and once when travelling home from the USA with his family he was told he had to travel on a US passport - I think he's since renounced his US citizenship because of this). When Kenya became independent Obama's British citizenship transferred to Kenyan. Kenyan law does not allow for its adult citizens to be dual nationals - they have to renounce their foreign citizenship or lose their Kenyan citizenship on their twenty-first birthday. Kenyan law cannot take away US citizenship, only Kenyan and vice versa.

Obama was born a dual national - US by birth (and by his mother), British colonial as the son of his father, with the latter converting to Kenyan when he was 2. When he was a child each citizenship was held without any regard to the laws governing any other, as is standard. But because he failed to renounce his US citizenship by the time he was 21 (i.e. old enough to make a choice himself), his Kenyan citizenship automatically lapsed.

Now a lot of people around the world qualify for more than one citizenship - for example a lot of Australians qualify for at least one European Union country citizenship on the parent or grandparent rule and many will take out the relevant passport for ease of travel. And many national football teams have exploited the grandparent rule to sign up talented players from their diaspora - the Republic of Ireland team got a particular reputation for this a couple of decades ago. And one could go on. Most of the relevant articles don't cover this unless the individual in question has made use of it. Unless Obama ever actually made use of his non-US citizenships then the matter is utterly trivial and has no place here. Timrollpickering (talk) 09:44, 18 February 2009 (UTC)

Same for William Henry Harrison. He never made use of his British citizenship by birth. --Natwebb (talk) 06:41, 19 February 2009 (UTC)

Photo caption issue

In the caption for File:Five_Presidents_2009.jpg, it says "Presidents...." My issue is that at the time of the photograph (January 7, as currently noted in the caption), Obama was not yet president. I think we should note it by saying something like "then president-elect Barack Obama (since inaugurated)" to have accuracy in the caption. It might not be the clearest wording, but something along those lines. Mahalo. --Ali'i 15:07, 17 February 2009 (UTC)

It is his official presidential portrait, that's what the government says. The photo is in all government offices across the country. --DemocraplypseNow (talk) 18:12, 17 February 2009 (UTC)

No, no no... the picture in the Cultural and political image section. Not the official portrait. Someone else? Mahalo. --Ali'i 18:16, 17 February 2009 (UTC)

I changed it to paraphrase the image description found over at the Commmons, where it notes the electoral state of both Bush and Obama at the time it was taken. Tarc (talk) 18:51, 17 February 2009 (UTC)

Brevity in captions is far more important than long digressions into pedantic correctness. LotLE×talk 21:47, 17 February 2009 (UTC)

But I'd wager accuracy in an encyclopedia article (especially where it can be verified) trumps saving a few words. ;-) --Ali'i 22:31, 17 February 2009 (UTC)

Yes. Captions are special (along with infobox fields). Verbiage that can be placed into main body often should be. LotLE×talk 22:34, 17 February 2009 (UTC)

If you want to edit it down, no one is preventing you. I just changed it so it would reflect, y'know, the facts. Relax. Tarc (talk) 01:52, 18 February 2009 (UTC)

Fully lock this article, please.

Considering what you see when you Google Barack presently (2009-02-17 ~5:35 PM GMT), I would suggest fully locking the article to prevent further highly public vandalism. Apeiron (talk) 17:34, 17 February 2009 (UTC)

I don't see what Google has to do with this article. Why lock it? Be more specific please.--Jojhutton (talk) 18:50, 17 February 2009 (UTC)

Likely referring to the fact that that Google search is unfortunately reflecting the state of the article upon this edit, which was only up for 2 minutes. It is a stupidity of Google's web page caching, not much we can do about it here. Tarc (talk) 18:55, 17 February 2009 (UTC)

Locking the article will not fix that. Only time will fix it. Periodically the Google search bot moves around the net scanning page after page to use in the search. This bot will sooner or later come back to scan the article again. Locking the article will not fix what is being shown in the Google search. Instead the best solution is to continue to monitor for vandalism and hope that the Google search bot scans a good copy and not one that has been vandalized. Brothejr (talk) 18:58, 17 February 2009 (UTC)

I wonder if that was on purpose, or just luck on the part of the vandal. Is it possible to predict or influence the timing of the google spider?Wikidemon (talk) 19:19, 17 February 2009 (UTC)

Agreed, it was just the timing of the search and the vandalism.--Jojhutton (talk) 19:21, 17 February 2009 (UTC)

Well, wait a minute, as Wikidemon implies, intentional vandalism timing can lock the vandalism into Google searches for a relatively long time. I'd expect smart vandals to start adopting this technique. Tempshill (talk) 04:51, 18 February 2009 (UTC)

Looking back at the article history, the page has been in a state of blanked vandalism for between 5 and 9 minutes in the last month. This means there's a maximum 0.2% chance of getting a vandalised page at any one time. The same applies to Google, except the sample is more granular. If this search result lasts on search results for two days, the next expected occurrence would be in about 27 years. Or if Google updated their refresh rate to 1 per hour, it would be a year until the next one - and it would only affect an hour's worth of searches. Considering Misplaced Pages's vulnerability to vandalism is well known, it's far more valuable to have a consistently good quality article maintained by a substantial pool of registered users. Bigbluefish (talk) 19:30, 17 February 2009 (UTC)

We've notified the Google search team about this and they've purged the cache for the page, but unfortunately it will take a while longer for the change to propagate.--Eloquence* 19:54, 17 February 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for being on this, Erik. Bad PR of the political sort is not what we need right now. Avruch 23:58, 17 February 2009 (UTC)

This is precisely why I've always argued in favor of permanent or extremely long term semiprotection of this and all of the Obama subarticles (not full), and it brings into focus why something like flagged revisions makes sense. "Anyone can edit", unfortunately, too often means any asshole can edit. And we have a responsibility, I think, to prevent crap like that from representing the hard work that constructive editors do, at the high rate of pay we receive for our efforts. Tvoz/talk 02:35, 18 February 2009 (UTC)

Not many people know that semi-protecton was implemented for the Bush article, back when Bush was in office. No protection would let in "idiot" vandalism, full protection would lock a lot of people out. This should be kept semi-protected for the same reason. Sceptre 04:57, 18 February 2009 (UTC)

This is a perfect example of why every page on Misplaced Pages should, also, be set NOCACHE for all search engines. rootology (C)(T) 05:18, 18 February 2009 (UTC)

Actually, in light of what happened to our #1 most visible BLP here, I've written Misplaced Pages:Search Engine NOCACHE by default proposal. Please weigh in there. If this BLP article ain't safe, none of them are. rootology (C)(T) 07:59, 18 February 2009 (UTC)

Archive glitch

What happened to the Archive pages at the top, they are all zeros??--Punkrocker27ka (talk) 05:22, 18 February 2009 (UTC)

The archives are back to normal, does anyone know what happened? --Punkrocker27ka (talk) 06:14, 18 February 2009 (UTC)

I had a couple of notices that said "Server is having problems" during that time period

--Chaosdruid (talk) 07:01, 18 February 2009 (UTC)

See here for a fairly incomprehensible (to me, anyway) explanation - and now to fix any affected page. Tvoz/talk 07:13, 18 February 2009 (UTC)

It's all fixed now. rootology (C)(T) 07:22, 18 February 2009 (UTC)

Free media relevant to Obama and stimulus plan

I just took a look at the Recovery.gov copyright info page and it appears that all content on the site - even the content produced by third-party vendors - is either public domain or CC-BY. In particular there's a high-quality video on the front page that would be a great demonstration of Obama's oratory style. Might be other media to dig out of there too, for this article and for the American Recovery and Reinvestment Act article. Dcoetzee 01:39, 18 February 2009 (UTC)

It's nothing new; a good proportion of our free content is PD-USGov. I'll take a look, to see if there's anything juicy. Maybe Obama's first weekly address? Sceptre 01:58, 18 February 2009 (UTC)

Which, incidentally, turns out to be about the stimulus. Awesome. Sceptre 02:08, 18 February 2009 (UTC)

Neurolysis kindly converted Obama's first weekly address to Misplaced Pages format. The image can be found here. Now, the question is: where to put it? Sceptre 02:38, 18 February 2009 (UTC)

Awesome. Off the top of my head, I'd say either Presidency_of_Barack_Obama#Legislation_and_executive_orders or Presidency_of_Barack_Obama#Transparency. I'm not sure if it should go in this article too - if so I'd either put it in the section on his presidency, or add a section about his addresses and add it there. Dcoetzee 06:31, 18 February 2009 (UTC)

The inaugural address is also public domain, also in HD, if you want an example of his crowd-working style. Bigbluefish (talk) 15:41, 18 February 2009 (UTC)

Re Dcoetzee: part of this article, "Cultural and public image", talks about Obama's weekly addresses. Though I agree, it would also be suitable for the Presidency of... article. Sceptre 23:37, 18 February 2009 (UTC)

LEAD

Why is the lead so short all of a sudden? An article of this size should have 4 bulky paragraphs. — R 22:28, 18 February 2009 (UTC)

Agreed. It's not a good encapsulation of the article, per WP:LEAD. Majoreditor (talk) 01:10, 19 February 2009 (UTC)

I was wondering this too and tracked it down to this edit, , which removed the third paragraph of the lead. I undid that edit, his explanation is that it would prevent further reoccurring debates but it seems to me it would be better to debate and change that paragraph than simply delete it, which made the lead far too short. WP:Lead section#Length says three to four paragraphs, so three well-written paragraphs could probably be enough, considering it would probably cause a good deal of debate over what to include in a fourth paragraph if one was written. There's nothing wrong with a debate over that though. LonelyMarble (talk) 02:31, 20 February 2009 (UTC)

Just want to add two more things. First, a similar lead with that paragraph was in place during the December 2, 2008, featured article review in which the article was kept: . Second, lead sections generally don't have to be sourced at all because the same information is sourced elsewhere in the article, which is the case for the paragraph I just restored. LonelyMarble (talk) 02:42, 20 February 2009 (UTC)

Here's what LonelyMarble added to the Introduction:

As a member of the Democratic minority in the 109th Congress, Obama helped create legislation to control conventional weapons and to promote greater public accountability in the use of federal funds. He also made official trips to Eastern Europe, the Middle East, and Africa. During the 110th Congress, he helped create legislation regarding lobbying and electoral fraud, climate change, nuclear terrorism, and care for U.S. military personnel returning from combat assignments in Iraq and Afghanistan.

Now everyone can easily decide if that should be in the Introduction. As long as it's accurate, I don't have a problem with it being in the Introduction. SMP0328. (talk) 03:19, 20 February 2009 (UTC)

I found this archived discussion regarding the removal: . My response to that is the lead section is a summary of what is in the article. Considering a large portion of this article is about what Obama did as a senator and what his various political positions are, it seems to me a paragraph summarizing this should be in the lead, which is what that paragraph is attempting to do. LonelyMarble (talk) 03:23, 20 February 2009 (UTC)

Reading the achieved discussion I have to agree with user:Brothejr. If we go into to much detail here we could scrap the election articles.--The Magnificent Clean-keeper (talk) 03:51, 20 February 2009 (UTC)

I don't get how briefly summarizing main points in the lead that are covered at length in the article is going into too much detail. Most articles of this size have four bulky paragraphs, as the first editor said. The lead has too little summary, not too much. LonelyMarble (talk) 03:57, 20 February 2009 (UTC)

I absolutely agree that the lead can be lengthen but the paragraph in question was written before he became President and therefore it will just take up space for his near future achievements, (positive and negative ones).--The Magnificent Clean-keeper (talk) 04:14, 20 February 2009 (UTC)

Why not just update that paragraph to include a reference to Obama being President? SMP0328. (talk) 04:26, 20 February 2009 (UTC)

Here's what I think might be a good layout of the lead:

• 1st paragraph: brief intro, current one looks good
• 2nd paragraph: summary of his career, current one looks pretty good
• 3rd paragraph: summary of his legislation and achievements as both senator and president and also any key political positions (however, we should avoid adding too much, if any, detail about his presidency to the lead since it will be hard to sort out the most relevant parts since his presidency just began)
• Additional 4th paragraph: summary of the last two sections of the article, the "Family and personal life" and "Cultural and political image" sections. Specifically, a summary of his unique cultural and political image should probably be summarized in a 4th paragraph. This could include a sentence or two about his presidential campaign, which also has a large section in the article. Remember, the lead should be a summary of the contents of the article. LonelyMarble (talk) 04:39, 20 February 2009 (UTC)

I have removed the paragraph again. Per: WP:LEAD the lead is a very brief highlight of the major events on his career. It is not there to highlight his policy decisions or stances. Please keep the political stances and bills he has passed out of the lead. Plus to add upon this: while you may say that those things in the paragraph was very important that should have been in the lead, person X is most likely going to say that so and so other stance is more important then what's included in the lead. Because of this arguments will erupt as people argue over which is more important. Again, no political stances or bills due to the fact that they are not mile stones in his career. Getting elected as president is a milestone, being the first African American is a milestone, and so on and so on. Finally, wanting more paragraphs to lengthen the lead is a very bad excuse to add that paragraph back in. Before re-introducing any paragraph or material into the lead, place it here for discussion to build a consensus before adding material back into the lead. Brothejr (talk) 10:30, 20 February 2009 (UTC)

Also to add on here: per WP:LEAD the lead should be brief and give an overview. Nothing in the policy says that the lead should be a certain length other then to say that it should be no more then four paragraphs. So conceivably the lead can be one or even two paragraphs. Also, something else to note: nothing in WP:LEAD says we need to cover current legislation, plus if we do try to cover current legislation it would violate WP:RECENT policy by not giving them a historical perspective. (I.E. waiting a long while before claiming it is a major miles stone of his career.) Finally we need to avoid topics in the lead that might lead to people saying that this position/act/etc would have been better in the lead or that act/etc. We need to avoid what we personally, as editors, feel as important and only focus on what the reliable sources have said are important. Misplaced Pages cannot claim that so and so is a milestone on it's own. Yet, if we have a variety of verified reliable sources that say that so and so was a milestone, then we can report it with refs to back that statement up. Brothejr (talk) 14:21, 20 February 2009 (UTC)

WP:Lead says an article over 30 KB should be 3 to 4 paragraphs. This article is over 140 KB. It should have 4 good paragraphs. If you look at any other featured article of this length it will have three lengthy paragraphs at a minimum, but most likely four. If this was taken to featured article review right now the first thing to come up would be to lengthen the lead. So no, the lead could definitely not be one or two paragraphs. You can't take words like "brief" out of context, "brief" is relative to article size, as WP:Lead#Length explains. The main function of the lead is to give a summary and overview of the whole article, so naturally the longer the article is, the longer the summary will have to be. Right now the lead gives an overview of his early career and that's about it. I'd say at least 75% of the article is not summarized at all (not everything needs equal summary weight but there's still a large amount that needs to be summarized in the lead). The paragraph you are removing was attemping to summarize the political career section, which lists various legislation he passed and various things he did in the senate. Taking this paragraph out because people might argue over the contents is silly, why not let arguments happen, which would hopefully lead to a better summary (and I check this article from time to time and that paragraph had been there for a long while, so I don't think it is that contentious). Maybe that paragraph should simply be rewritten, but there needs to be a summary paragraph of his political career, which probably includes important legislation, and also somehow summarizing the political positions section with a sentence or two would be nice because these are large sections of the article. And like I said in the proposed layout above, a fourth paragraph about his political and cultural image would be good too. A quote from WP:Lead which I think this article fails to do at the moment: "The lead section should briefly summarize the most important points covered in an article in such a way that it can stand on its own as a concise version of the article." LonelyMarble (talk) 20:46, 20 February 2009 (UTC)

WP:Lead says an article over 30 KB should be 3 to 4 paragraphs. This article is over 140 KB. It should have 4 good paragraphs.

You can't and shouldn't "force" the lead to 4 paragraphs just because of the above. Extend it? Yes! But only with high quality, not just recent but up to date important issues that will "stick" for more than a few days or even weeks. Brothejr made a very good point above that I approve.--The Magnificent Clean-keeper (talk) 00:15, 21 February 2009 (UTC)

I think the removed paragraph possibly had some things that should stay, such as mentioning the two main bills Obama's name was attached to while he was senator. Summarizing what he did as a senator is certainly not a "recent" thing that won't stick, at least not for a long while. But, instead of arguing over having that paragraph inserted again I will attempt to rewrite another one or two paragraphs to add on to the lead and present them here. Or anyone else that wants to take on that task is welcome to as well. I'll probably work on that more tomorrow, I don't have much time tonight. I also just noticed Jayron32's recent addition to the lead. I think it's a good start, but I would like the fourth paragraph to mention his unique cultural/political image. And mentioning Hillary Clinton and the amount of electoral votes he won is probably too specific for the lead, but at least it's a start. LonelyMarble (talk) 00:37, 21 February 2009 (UTC)

Even so I see a good point from your side although I think that Obama's time as a senator should (and is?) covered in a sub. Here in his bio we need to focus more on his presidency (as I stated earlier at some point) since it is now the main factor on how he is "judged" and "valuated". Although, from my point of view have no problem and won't reject some lead edit of his time as a senator as long as it is very short and briefly. So a rewrite (proposed here on talk if possible) would be a good thing to do. I now I'm going a bit for-and-backwards about this but it is just not a simple decision.--The Magnificent Clean-keeper (talk) 02:14, 21 February 2009 (UTC)

One more thing before I have to go, I still think it is silly to delete a longstanding paragraph and have to prove why it should be there rather than the opposite. The paragraph summarizes his senate career, which is a big part of the article, which is what the lead is for. Thanks to Jayron32 for attempting to be neutral, but is mentioning the committees he was on any more neutral than mentioning the major legislation that he helped pass? My vote would be to add back in the removed paragraph with Jayron's new sentence about committees added at the end of it as well. Is there any better way to summarize his time as senator (and while doing so it shows his political positions as well)? Are you disagreeing that these things shouldn't be summarized in the lead? Because they are a big part of the article body. Where we disagree is I don't think the paragraph is perfect, and I'm open to having it improved, but I also don't think it is forced. I think it is a necessary paragraph that could be argued over for what content to use for the best summary, but shouldn't just be deleted. LonelyMarble (talk) 01:03, 21 February 2009 (UTC)

About "longstanding paragraph": December last year Obama wasn't President so changes from then to now are and where naturally to expected. What was then (important) is not anymore. I think I said something similar before.--The Magnificent Clean-keeper (talk) 02:14, 21 February 2009 (UTC)

LonelyMarble, just a quick comment, before too much of this inclusion fest gets fussed over or trimmed, according to my toolbox Page size stats, the article size is currently only 32 kB (5293 words) of readable prose. Thus, per the lead guideline, this size translates to only two or three lede paragraphs. Modocc (talk) 03:00, 21 February 2009 (UTC) To anyone that wants to add the page size function to your toolbox, create a User:username/monobook.js page with the following added to it:

importScript('User:Dr_pda/prosesize.js'); //]

Your User:username/monobook.js page can be created by going to the Skins under your preferences, clicking on the monobook's Custom JS and saving the new page. --Modocc (talk) 05:47, 21 February 2009 (UTC)

President Obama

He is multiracial. His mother was caucasion. See NNDB for details.fjw75@yahoo.com —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.9.65.17 (talk) 13:41, 19 February 2009 (UTC)

Understood and agreed. This information is already included in the article. However, judging by the majority of sources we've seen and discussed here, history will record Obama as America's first African American president (or black president, depending on where you are) - not multiracial or biracial. Please see the FAQ at the top of this page for more information. SHEFFIELDSTEEL 14:01, 19 February 2009 (UTC)

Part of Christianity

What sect of Christianity is Obama part of? I know that he used to be part of the United Church of Christ but right now it doesn't seem like he's really a part of any of them. Could someone elaborate on this? I know this might have been answered in the archives but I haven't a clue on which section it was. My President is Black (talk) 04:18, 20 February 2009 (UTC)

Yeah, Obama used to be a member of UCC, since leaving the church he has not yet made a choice publicly.With that I mean there is no news article or press release or anything that we could use, that says he choose one, he might have chosen one personally.So i guess that means that at the moment Obama is not part of any sect.Durga Dido (talk) 10:15, 20 February 2009 (UTC)

Law school instructor (Constitutional law)

Note that in a recently archived discussion the contribution of a similar designation to the infobox was objected to for the professed (no pun intended) reason that it was unsourced (I think; it was hard to follow the objector's reasoning) -- so I've finally got around to adding "law school instructor (Constitutional law)" with a note. It's interesting/useful IMO to mention politicians' academic occupations, those who've had them (eg Moynihan as a scholar in sociology, Gingrich as a historian/untenured history prof, etc.). ↜Just me, here, now … 17:10, 20 February 2009 (UTC)

User:Tvoz has now improved the phrasing and, rightfully, also removed the footnote, since the assertion is already documented lower down in the article's text. I'd only included a ref to forstall another claim that it hadn't been documented adequately: In the archived thread I'd argued, "s for 'It's expected that prominent lawyers lecture' I hope upon reflection you'll admit this undocumented line of attack is a bit bizarre!" -- the response to which was, "hat's funny considering you accused me of violating WP:OR after deleting your addition of unsourced content. You are the one with the bizarre thinking." ↜Just me, here, now … 04:26, 21 February 2009 (UTC)

State legislator: 1997–2004 - repeated inappropriate and disruptive edits

Kauffner's latest repeated inappropriate and disruptive edits to an Obama-related article:

An out-of-context State legislator: 1997–2004 section sentence:

While serving in the state senate, Obama voted "present" 129 times out of the 4,000 votes he made as a state senator.

of Barack Obama presidential primary campaign, 2008#South Carolina trivia

that has been discussed in Talk:Barack Obama/Archive 13#"Present" Votes.... Again

and included in the South Carolina section of the Barack Obama presidential primary campaign, 2008 article

has been inappropriately and disruptively repeatedly added 6 times by Kauffner to this WP:Summary style article:

1. 11:38, 6 February 2009
2. 06:17, 7 February 2009
3. 15:53, 14 February 2009
4. 02:51, 15 February 2009
5. 03:53, 16 February 2009
6. 16:42, 20 February 2009

and reverted 6 times by Newross, Scjessey, and Brothejr.

Kauffner's only other contributions to Obama-related articles have also been repeated inappropriate and disruptive edits to The Audacity of Hope, Dreams from My Father, and Project Vote.
See: Talk:The Audacity of Hope#Reception - repeated inappropriate and disruptive edits

Please immediately cease and desist making repeated inappropriate and disruptive edits to Obama-related Misplaced Pages articles. Newross (talk) 23:53, 20 February 2009 (UTC)

Although I agree, I think the place for this is Kauffner's own edit page, WP:AN/I, or the administrator he just called a troll for warning him to stop edit warring at Audacity of Hope. I think he's been warned enough times and shown that he won't quit.Wikidemon (talk) 00:14, 21 February 2009 (UTC)

Wikidemon is (as often) right about this one. Don't bring it up here but where s/he suggested.--The Magnificent Clean-keeper (talk) 00:22, 21 February 2009 (UTC)

I notice here a total refusal to engage in the issue and a focus on attacking me personally. If you read the archive discussion, you'll find that most of the participants favored some mention of Obama's present voting. We now have a situation where the article can discuss whether or not Obama is a distant relative of Jefferson Davis, but one of the top issues in the primary elections is tagged as too trivial to include. Kauffner (talk) 03:25, 21 February 2009 (UTC)

Broken link

I thought I'd notify some of the page regulars... The link about his smoking is broken. It was here but the url doesn't seem to work. I removed it and replaced it with a cn. --Happyme22 (talk) 04:21, 21 February 2009 (UTC)

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