Revision as of 17:57, 2 March 2009

Welcome to wikiquette assistance
Wikiquette assistance is a forum where editors who feel they are being treated uncivilly can request assistance. The goal here is to help all parties in a situation come to a mutually agreeable solution. It is designed to function via persuasion, reason, and community support, rather than threats or blocks. Your first resort should be a polite attempt to discuss the problem with the other editor(s). No binding decisions are issued here. If you seek blocks or bans, see WP:ANI instead. Sections older than 5 days archived by MiszaBot II. Click here to purge this page (For help, see Misplaced Pages:Purge) Shortcut WP:WQA Please notify any users involved in a dispute. You may use {{subst:WQA-notice}} to do so.
Search the Wikiquette archives Additional notes: Before posting, see that you've made every attempt to follow the advice at Guide to avoiding disputes. Consider the helpful advice here and see the dispute resolution process. Include diffs that show the situation. See the Simplest diff guide for help. The conduct of all parties will be taken into account. Assistance may involve suggestions for altering your own behavior to avoid conflict. Volunteers are welcome. See the volunteer instructions.
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Active alerts

User:Ironman1104

This user has made a number of edits which appear counterproductive. Lately, these have seemed to appear with disproportionate frequency on pages which I patrol. These points are not the crux of the problem, though. User:Ironman1104 has twice accused me of being illiterate . He has twice removed, without comment, my attempts to discuss editing issues with him on his own talk page . He twice edited the article Jóhanna Sigurðardóttir to introduce a usage which had been discussed on the article's talk page and rejected as potentially offensive . I feel that this pattern of behaviour is unconstructive, but I would welcome third-party assessment. AlexTiefling (talk) 11:55, 23 February 2009 (UTC)

Your first example does not appear to be a personal attack - it's phrased as "illiterate usage", and the edit did indeed add incoherency to the text. The second is - I have given a level 2 caution re: NPA's as edit summaries are permanent. An editor is not ever required to reply to your posts on their talkpage. For this reason, the article talkpage is the best place to gain WP:CONSENSUS. Their decision to not reply there can therefore affect the article. (talk→ Bwilkins / BMW ←track) 12:07, 23 February 2009 (UTC)

It's also rather ironic that Ironman1104 removed your WQA notice just before I gave the warning, and has not replied here regarding his actions. This might be telling, or might not. (talk→ Bwilkins / BMW ←track) 12:12, 23 February 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for the help - let's see if anything happens.

I'm not sure that the dispute about 'ambiguous' in the London article justifies calling me 'illiterate'. Words with implied dual meanings like 'ambiguous' or 'dilemma' are not generally requires to carry explicitly dual meanings in modern English; Ironman1104's alternative edit was certainly no more coherent than the original text which I restored. His newest revision of that page actually isn't bad - I just object to his use of the edit summary to call me (implicitly) illiterate while doing so.

I noticed the same thing about his own talk page. As to engaging him on specific article talk pages, I have tried ; in the case of Jóhanna Sigurðardóttir, the talk page already carried the information he needed, and was ignored. As for Talk:London, the issue of London's status as capital is a can of worms - I decided against starting a discussion of 'ambiguous' in order to avoid re-opening that particular can all over the talk page. AlexTiefling (talk) 12:26, 23 February 2009 (UTC)

...and now he's removed the warning, which is considered tacit acceptance of said warning. (talk→ Bwilkins / BMW ←track) 17:20, 23 February 2009 (UTC)

...and he's also removed your subsequent request for him to come and respond here. AlexTiefling (talk) 10:33, 24 February 2009 (UTC)

I can't force him to reply. That makes a couple of "accepted" warnings, and he knows he's under some scrutiny. Not much else to do but to see how he edits from this point forward. (talk→ Bwilkins / BMW ←track) 10:42, 24 February 2009 (UTC)

Since I originally filed this report, the user in question has started making edits to articles I'd previously edited and he hadn't and in one case has actually started edit-warring about English dialect differences on one. This is despite another user putting a warning on Ironman1104's talk page after the first of those two edits, advising him not to waste his time on perceived 'spelling' issues. AlexTiefling (talk) 11:04, 25 February 2009 (UTC)

user:Hauskalainen

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

user hauskalainen has just levied a really ugly charge at me and other editors, claiming that we are in collusion. and the progression into this charge is jaw dropping. earlier today, he wrote:

Are you and Anastrophe twins, alter egos, or just playing tag??? It seems that when I talk to one, the other one replies. --Hauskalainen (talk) 20:08, 23 February 2009 (UTC)

to which i replied:

your question is a non-sequitur, but i'll indulge. no, yaf and i are not twins. no, yaf and i are not alter egos. no, yaf and i are not playing tag. yaf is your fellow editor. you are my fellow editor. yaf is my fellow editor. my connection to yaf is precisely the same as my connection to you, in other words, no connection besides being fellow editors. since this is not a one-to-one medium, you cannot expect one-to-one communications. i'm not constrained in whom i may respond to, nor can you really have any reasonable expectation that when you direct some inquiry at another editor that they will even respond at all. this is a discussion page. it's folly to assume a conspiracy - or even to suggest it. Anastrophe (talk) 04:58, 24 February 2009 (UTC)

yet a short time later, he lets loose this bolus of uncivil claims:

Yet again you two (Yaf and Anastrophe) have chipped in to this conversation at almost the same time after a long silence. Have you been out together or something and just got back? And which one of you has the ip address which has just deleted the section on gun violence AGAIN? Your behaviours are unacceptable. I am of the opinion that you are not entirely unconnected to each other and also with SaltyBoatr judging by the speed he was able to read one of your comments, think about an answer, type it into the server, and get the server to confirm the update. All in the same minute! He is quick to get references in but they are always double edged. A wolf in sheep's clothing perhaps. I suspect the to-and-fro between you all is just a sham. I have seen this behaviour elsewhere in Misplaced Pages and it can be defeated. --Hauskalainen (talk) 05:50, 24 February 2009 (UTC)

this is, as i replied, intolerable. Anastrophe (talk) 06:37, 24 February 2009 (UTC)

Again, Anastrophe, did you notify him that you brought this WQA? Please do so, if you wouldn't mind... Edit Centric (talk) 08:36, 24 February 2009 (UTC)

(Now returning to the 3O chair, mediate ON) It's going to take me some time to research this one, I'd like the following to occur before I make any observations here;

• Anastrophe needs again to notify Hauskalainen about this WQA, so that he / she has a chance to give some input.
• I'd like to see why Hauskalainen is making these non-AGF assertions. (I personally find them a bit far-fetched at first blush, given the last few weeks of interaction betwixt SB and Anastrophe.)

In the meantime, I shall sit here, scratching my head and raising an eyebrow... Edit Centric (talk) 08:43, 24 February 2009 (UTC)

apologies, i've now alerted the user. i pirated the alert you used in the last matter that came up....Anastrophe (talk) 09:11, 24 February 2009 (UTC)

If someone feels they're being ganged up on, then we need to have a look to see if they are. It doesn't need to be collusion to have the appearance of being ganged up on in order to limit input. (talk→ Bwilkins / BMW ←track) 09:52, 24 February 2009 (UTC)

that may be, but accusations of collusion are not to be made lightly, nor taken lightly, per WP:TAGTEAM. this is an egregious, uncivil accusation, based apparently on no evidence more substantial than 'several editors are editing and commenting'. woe be to the entire collection of wikipedia editors then, we're all in collusion. Anastrophe (talk) 16:45, 24 February 2009 (UTC)

I was tired when I made that comment and went to bed shortly after. I have only just woken up and seen this report. My immediate response is to say that I did not see the reply to my first accusation from Anastrophe at 04:58, 24 February 2009 (UTC). But I don't think that changes my suspicion. A denial is just a denial. It does not change things much in my mind. I will be away from editing for a short while but will return to this matter in due course. Notwithstanding this Wikiquette report I will be looking formally at the behaviors of these editors to see if there is evidence of sockpuppetry or, more likely, co-ordinated editing by conneced persons, and I will be compiling evidence. The silly reaction to the insertion of the section regarding gun violence and the addition of statistics and academic research, and the silly insistence that the Assize of Arms granted a "right" has crystallized in my mind the realization that the main editors at that article have are overly zealous and extremely biased. --Hauskalainen (talk) 12:26, 24 February 2009 (UTC)

Basic rule of thumb re: Sockpuppetry - you either file it @ SSP, or stop accusing. (talk→ Bwilkins / BMW ←track) 12:32, 24 February 2009 (UTC)

yes, please do investigate it, file it, whatever. there's no sockpuppetry or meatpuppetry here. it's freaking ridiculous to be accused of this. Anastrophe (talk) 16:45, 24 February 2009 (UTC)

Like I said, it's up to the original complainant to either file it, or shut up about it. I'm closing this as NWQA. Let us know if he continues the accusations between now and when he files an SSP. (talk→ Bwilkins / BMW ←track) 16:50, 24 February 2009 (UTC)

Comment This edit appears to be an actual situation of a violation of WP:SOCK, and I have already warned them of WP:CANVASsing. It's funny when those who accuse of socking turn around and sock themselves. (talk→ Bwilkins / BMW ←track) 07:18, 25 February 2009 (UTC)

All I did was log in under an alias to get independent advice on resolving a dispute from someone involved in WP Editor Assistance. A long long way from canvassing, sock puppetry, or meat puppetry or whatever else I have been accused of elsewhere. In fact I specifically asked Used:HowardBerry NOT to intervene by editing the article! How much clearer can you get?!!--Hauskalainen (talk) 13:48, 25 February 2009 (UTC)

You have uninvolved, 3rd party people right here trying to assist. It was a clear canvass, and you attempted to hide your own identity, as noted in your post. You've been advised to file your SSP right now, and I await the notification that it's done. Until then, I anticipate your ceasing to accuse others of Socking when you just did it yourself. (talk→ Bwilkins / BMW ←track) 13:56, 25 February 2009 (UTC)

I have posted an extremely clear, concise and plainly worded warning here. And, like I said in my warning, enough with the shenanigans, Hauskalainen. Either address your concerns in the proper manner and forum, or don't address it at all. What you just engaged in was not copasetic by any measure. Edit Centric (talk) 18:40, 25 February 2009 (UTC)

I'm going to post this here, knowing full well that this WQA is already closed as "Non-WQA". I want all involved to have this input. Given the latest statements made by Hauskalainen, masquerading as Slinkyworm, I'm not at all sure that an SSP would clear up any misconceptions he may be operating under, to his satisfaction. In addition, he's now directed a portion of his angst at me, accusing me of "intimidation". Hauskalainen, you seriously need to drop the conspiracy theorys and shell games, and concentrate on article improvement. If you spent your energies there, Wiki would be a much better place. Edit Centric (talk) 19:04, 25 February 2009 (UTC)

For the use of an alias to be considered as "Sock Puppetry" in Misplaced Pages it needs to be used for "fraudulent, disruptive, or otherwise deceptive purposes". I see none of that here. Rather it looks that Hauskalainen used an alias to seek help with the harmless intent of wanting to remain anonymous. Also, your advice to 'focus on article improvement' seems to miss the reality of the hostility level being dumped on Hauskalainen in the last couple weeks. Article improvement in such an extreme hostile editing environment can be trying. SaltyBoatr (talk) 22:10, 25 February 2009 (UTC)

you've reduced WP:SOCK to only the first sentence of the policy, ignoring in your elision WP:SOCK#SCRUTINY, under which his behavior is clearly sockpuppetry. you describe hauskalainen's behavior as 'harmless', and cast him as the victim here. you see nothing uncivil or in violation of AGF in his accusations of sockpuppetry against others, while committing sockpuppetry himself. you see no hostility in hauskalainen's actions? Anastrophe (talk) 08:48, 26 February 2009 (UTC)

Thank you Salty, I could not have put it better myself. I was not "masquerading" because I made it perfectly plain that I was using an alternative account to make a perfecly legitimate call for help under WP:EA. As far as the person I was talking to was concerned, I mase it easy for him to work out my main identity. The SOLE purpose of using the alternative account was to get advice without being followed around by the editors I am in dispute with. Edit Centric on the other hand has made threats to me such as " any more shenanigans, and I will personally recommend that you be blocked for disruption of not only the article(s) in question, but Misplaced Pages on the whole!. (The "shenanigans" he refers to was my action of using an alias to seek advice.. he calls it "Forum shopping" with a sockpuppet. My actions were perfectly legitimate. No where near sock puppetry and seeking advice is not Forum shopping!. Those threats hardly seem like they are in accord with Wiquette to me! It is because there are people willing to delete multiple times (even in breach of 3RR) that I decided to move this issue to a 3rd party for assistance with resolution. SaltyBoatr may have endless patience (because I see he is trying to press on with arguments). I on the other hand see the main issue at stake as very simple. Either the edit that was deleted was WP:SYN or it wasn't. Either it is related to the article or it isn't. A third party can help to resolve that dispute.--Hauskalainen (talk) 23:00, 25 February 2009 (UTC)

Okay, let's clear up a few things that have gotten muddled within the "sturm und drang" over the past few days;

1. Hauskalainen issued these statements, suggesting that three other editors might be WP:SOCKS - at the tail end of this post, and again at the end of this one.
2. He makes the same assertion again in this very WQA, further up the thread; this post. There's no such thing as a "temporary reply" here. A reply is a reply.
3. Yaf brings this to my attention, which I look into with some reservations (my way of saying "Yeah, right. Hauskalainen? Why would he go and do something like that?"), as I don't possess CheckUser access. So, I have to confirm or dispel it by other means.
4. Checking this out, I note that he a) Has something against editors from the U.S., and b) thinks there is some kind of right-wing conspiracy that is "well funded, and may well have "infiltrated" wikipedia at the highest levels": Here come the black helicopters
5. I see this from Hauskalainen, confirming what I have been told, and then...
6. I issue this warning to Hauskalainen, and cc it to his doppelganger: Warned here, page has since been white-washed.
7. After some intermediate edits, he accuses me of threatening and intimidation, even going to the point of wanting me to replace the photo of myself on my own user page!: Note the edit descriptor.

Yes, I did get a bit flippant in my reply, but only because I found his insinuations of conspiracy, assertion that my pic was "clearly intended to intimidate" and his need for me to change it completely ludicrous; My reply. At this point, someone else can try dealing with this guy. All I can do right now is sit here, shaking my head in utter "confundis". Edit Centric (talk) 02:13, 26 February 2009 (UTC)

No condoning bad behavior, I agree 100%. Still you single out this one user who is a WP:NOOB. Have you checked out the harsh treatment dumped on this guy (on that talk page) by several long term serial WP:CIVILITY abusers, experienced editors who should know better? This is the Wikiquette alert page right? SaltyBoatr (talk) 19:12, 26 February 2009 (UTC)

(outdent) Use of socks: User Hauskalainen continually accused others of being socks. He was warned to file the SSP or stop. He instead created a new account and re-made the same accusations. That is a violation of socks, as it was used to evade a warning.

Even though his actions are under scrutiny, he insists on escalating this situation in front of our eyes. You must understand, first attempts at solving this issue were mild. As the user has been overly uncooperative, the escalation continues needlessly. All he had to do was stop the accusations, maybe apologize, and life would have gone on... sure, there might have been some content issues to deal with elsewhere, but the incivility portion would have been done with. (talk→ Bwilkins / BMW ←track) 10:02, 26 February 2009 (UTC)

SaltyBoatr, Hauskalainen is by no means a "NOOB". He's been editing here at Misplaced Pages longer than I have for Christmas' sakes, and should know better than to pull the stunts that he's pulled in the last few. That's all I'm going to say on the matter, as I'm still quite done with the issue. Edit Centric (talk) 03:41, 27 February 2009 (UTC)

My mistake reading Hauskalainen's contrib record, oops. Still, my mistake doesn't change my opinion that it is a mistake to focus on one challenging editor and to avert your eyes from the rampant civility abuses on that talk page would be a shame. SaltyBoatr (talk) 15:18, 27 February 2009 (UTC)

User:Daedalus969

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.

Incivility by the above on the talk page of Gwen_Gale. Diffs of aggressive and hostile comments follow:

1. Accusations against Tony1 (talk · contribs) and Ohconfucius (talk · contribs) of baiting.
2. "back the hell off, try reading WP:DICK yourself, as you really are being one"
3. "Please just shut up now, I'm sick of this disruptive trolling of yours on this talk page"

Ohconfucius (talk) 10:56, 24 February 2009 (UTC)

Having already read the above items as a neutral party, and responding to them on that specific talkpage this morning, this WQA to me appears to be significantly disruptive and WP:POINTy. Tony has indeed been baiting an admin, and I expect additional sanctions to come from elsewhere ... you're only lucky I think that Gwen Gale is extremely patient. Try actually reading WP:DICK - it's a standard essay that is recommended when people are indeed acting in a specific manner. Try also reading the article on Trolling. (talk→ Bwilkins / BMW ←track) 11:59, 24 February 2009 (UTC)

• Not guilty, m'lud. For a admin who "just happened to pass" by that page, this is quite a fine example of neutrality (sic) in action. You're an admin, and I would have expected a bit more restraint on your part than that outrageously thinly disguised personal attack. Ohconfucius (talk) 13:36, 24 February 2009 (UTC)

Um, "not an admin"...and now you are baiting. But thanks. (talk→ Bwilkins / BMW ←track) 13:38, 24 February 2009 (UTC)

Give me a break. This was posted here with the pipe "no more Mr. Nice Guy". This entire issue, Tony and Ohconfucius included, is a monumental waste of volunteer time. Tan | 39 15:20, 24 February 2009 (UTC)

Happen to watch that talk page for other reasons. I don't think i've interacted with Tony, Ohconfucious or Daedalus. I agree with bwilkins. Tony and Ohconfucious have been way out of line and have been handled more reasonably than they probably deserve (i'd just be blanking/ignoring them by now). Have no opinion or knowledge about the dispute behind all this, but the problem behavior is originating from the complainant in this case.Bali ultimate (talk) 15:23, 24 February 2009 (UTC)

I do beg your pardon, but since when has insistence/pressing for compliance with policies "way out of line"? The contention is that the repeated bureaucratic stonewalling which is "way out of line". Ohconfucius (talk) 15:32, 24 February 2009 (UTC)

Ah, your forum shopping instead of being pointy. I get it now. You've been given explanations. You may not like them, but insisting you have not recieved explanations when the record shows you have isn't going to get you anywhere. You should probably drop it. Bali ultimate (talk) 15:44, 24 February 2009 (UTC)

Even though proof has been shown that policy was followed, you and Tony seem to feel that a) it's not good enough and b) that you have no need to show your own proof. I'm a simple volunteer - not an admin, not a bureaucracy component - and from what I see, the both of you are disrupting a lot of project work. I would expect that this Plaxico of yours will end up at ANI, but more likely not the way you were thinking ... so, as I said, take it to ANI yourself now, or I would expect you will be taken to ANI. Your call. (talk→ Bwilkins / BMW ←track) 16:36, 24 February 2009 (UTC)

While Daedalus may have responded inappropriately, this Ohconfucius character is out of line and should have blocked some time ago. This entire thread here stretches good faith to the breaking point. Chicken Wing (talk) 18:14, 24 February 2009 (UTC)

Please note this diff, where the user changes his username, through a inter-wiki link, to Osomething the same word I used to describe him when I couldn't remeber his name on another thread. He is obviously making fun of me here. Secondly, note this diff, where he says, and I quote: *Oh, quelle surprise to find you here. In need of friends perhaps? to a user who was trying to tell me not to be bothered by both him and Tony. I do not believe, given these past two diffs, that I should be the one here under the spotlight.— Dædαlus 22:44, 24 February 2009 (UTC)

I'm disappointed but not surprised to see this spurious WQA. As I commented on Daedalus's talkpage, Tony, Ohconfucius et al have created a forest fire, of which this is only the latest outbreak. -- Earle Martin 00:27, 25 February 2009 (UTC)

You should check out the ANI thread then, second from bottom.— Dædαlus 00:34, 25 February 2009 (UTC)

Closure was totally out of order. I have reverted. BMW, you're not an admin, and even if you were, you'd be conflicted out. To be continued... Ohconfucius (talk) 15:44, 26 February 2009 (UTC)

Just a quick FYI, this is not an admin board, so there is nothing at all wrong with a non-admin closing an alert. If we waited for admins to close alerts on this forum, most of them would never be closed. The Seeker 4 Talk 16:20, 26 February 2009 (UTC)

• I'm glad I now have the chance to comment, since I got here after one of the participants at the page in question closed this section with a dismissive comment (see top). I've rarely seen such extraordinary rudeness at WP as the abuse heaped on me by the subject of this WQA. Tony (talk) 15:50, 26 February 2009 (UTC)

There seems to be a move afoot to lay the blame for the extarordinarily bad behaviour exhibited by a few administrators in this case at the door of the targets for their abuse. It is about time that all administrators adhered to the policies governing their behaviour, and acted accordingly. Instead of trying to shout down every editor who objects to the clear application of different standards with widely different penalties for non-conformance meted out to admins and non-admins. I certainly won't be holding my breath though. --Malleus Fatuorum 16:21, 26 February 2009 (UTC)

You've always had the chance to comment. And, I've rarely seen such extraordinary rudeness on anyone else's talkpage as I saw from that generated this complaint. Daedelus has been made aware that his actions were a bit beyond civility. Re-opening it was fully unnceccesary, and based on the commentary by uninvolved persons above, there is no further action required here, unless you're a fan of increased WP:DRAMA. (talk→ Bwilkins / BMW ←track) 16:53, 26 February 2009 (UTC)

I re-opened this because I'm fan of increased honesty. --Malleus Fatuorum 17:31, 26 February 2009 (UTC)

I'm glad to hear that, now what does that have to do with this conflict? I've read the posts on Gwen Gale's talk page and where Daedalus969 could have used other words to express their frustration you, Oconfucious, and Tony could lay the stick down and ask direct, lucid questions without editorializing on what you think should have happened. If you ask questions you must be willing to listen to the answers. Padillah (talk) 17:42, 26 February 2009 (UTC)

... and if questions are asked, or unfounded accusations are made, then time must be allowed for answers to be given, no matter who finds that inconvenient. --Malleus Fatuorum 17:55, 26 February 2009 (UTC)

See, it's obtuse responses like this that frustrate other editors. I'll try and be more plain: The question of Daedalus969 being uncivil has been answered - they were no more uncivil than others in the thread and have removed themself from the discussion (at least they have not posted to any of it's myriad conversations since yesterday) in any case. So, with that answered, what are you keeping this open for? What do you hope to gain from this being open? Please try to be specific. Padillah (talk) 18:06, 26 February 2009 (UTC)

You were right to close it: it was moved to ANI long ago, and that became the appropriate forum. Ase noted, Daedelus was told about his level of incivility in the ANI. This one should therefore be NWQA or Resolved tagged. (talk→ Bwilkins / BMW ←track) 18:08, 26 February 2009 (UTC)

If there are users who still want to talk this over, and there are, the discussion should remain open. Having a few involved, and opinionated, users throw some insults, and then to close the discussion is not acceptable. Malcolm Schosha (talk) 18:09, 26 February 2009 (UTC)

No. The purpose of this page is to address incivility issues. That has been done. This discussion is over. Please understand this is a warning, I am not an admin so I will be forced to find one that will review your continued opening of this discussion and take action they feel is necessary. If you think re-opening this is a good idea, that's your call. I am telling you, point blank and period, this page is not here for you to rehash the drama of an argument past it's resolution. If this is the best reason you've got, "to talk about it more", than I'm sorry, I can't support keeping this open any longer. Padillah (talk) 18:18, 26 February 2009 (UTC)

I see that Tanthalas39 who is an administrator, and a highly involved party in this dispute , has closed the discussion. I am considering taking that to AN/I. Malcolm Schosha (talk) 18:45, 26 February 2009 (UTC)

That is your prerogative. Have at it. Tan | 39 18:48, 26 February 2009 (UTC)

For what it's worth, I was going to post here to suggest that on balance the thread is no longer constructive and that it should perhaps be archived, only to see that someone else had already done so. Regards, SHEFFIELDSTEEL 18:59, 26 February 2009 (UTC)

The thread was unconstructive right from the start. There is little point in bringing any complaint about abuse by an administrator into this admin-breeding ground. --Malleus Fatuorum 19:04, 26 February 2009 (UTC)

User:Daedalus969 isn't an admin. Gwen Gale (talk) 19:06, 26 February 2009 (UTC)

I expect he will be one day soon though; he's obviously made of the right stuff. I believe that Tan is already an admin though? --Malleus Fatuorum 19:20, 26 February 2009 (UTC)

Tanthalas39 closed this thread, and he was highly involved in is dispute from the beginning on tour talk page. Malcolm Schosha (talk) 19:10, 26 February 2009 (UTC)

No, I closed this thread, and warned you to please stop beating the horse. Just because you are not removing the archive template does not mean you have stopped the discussion. Please let the matter rest, the incivility has stopped. It's over. I will take your incessant poking to AN/I if need be. Please stop. Padillah (talk) 19:11, 26 February 2009 (UTC)

Padillah, just to make sure this is clear, I removed the closing template after you put it on. Then the beloved administrator, Tanthalas39, restored the closing template: . Moreover, Tanthalas39 has acknowledged that above, and on AN/I. Malcolm Schosha (talk) 22:27, 26 February 2009 (UTC)

User:Quaeler

Editor left an extremely rude message on my account discussion page. Judging by his own discussion page, he seems to make a habit of it. Moreover, he threatened me with various punitive actions which he himself has no power to enact. That kind of bullying has no place here or anywhere else.--Benjamin canaan (talk) 15:55, 24 February 2009 (UTC)

The message was neither extremely rude nor habitual - removing spam links is a critical part of Misplaced Pages maintenance. He also did not "threaten" you nor did he claim to do it himself; that is a standard spam warning and is used thousands of times a day by hundreds of Misplaced Pages volunteers. Nothing to see here, certainly no admin action necessary. Tan | 39 16:01, 24 February 2009 (UTC)

We need a diff so we know what comment is being discussed. Assuming it was the warning left by User:Quaeler, that isnt the usual warning template and parts of it such as "If you have more to contribute to an article than shilling for a web site, please consider adding actual content" are not really civil and come across rude. i suggest asking the editor to use the templates at Misplaced Pages:Template_messages/User_talk_namespace instead. On the subject of the warning, i believe it may have been done in haste without due consideration which is another issue. --neon white talk 19:50, 24 February 2009 (UTC)

QUERY: I noticed while doing page maintenance that this WQA is still pending, but that the editor who it was filed about was never properly notified. Does anyone want me to do a notification and keep this open, or do we want to call it "stale" at this time? Edit Centric (talk) 18:07, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

Talk:Right to keep and bear arms

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Would a cool headed editor be willing to drop in on Talk:Right to keep and bear arms and give some encouragement to help raise the level of civility there? Thanks in advance. SaltyBoatr (talk) 17:42, 25 February 2009 (UTC)

See a couple of entries above ... (talk→ Bwilkins / BMW ←track) 18:24, 25 February 2009 (UTC)

I am disappointed in your evaluation above where you suggest that "All he had to do was stop the accusations, maybe apologize...". As if he was the only problem editor. If you look close, a territorial culture of personal attacks has festered on that article talk for a very long time. I don't condone the bad behavior of that one user which you singled out, but I do have empathy for his feelings faced with the hostile and harsh treatment he received from several long term incivil editors watching over that Wiki-turf, and I can understand his frustration dealing with the personal insults. SaltyBoatr (talk) 19:23, 26 February 2009 (UTC)

Talk:Ray Joseph Cormier

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.

In this edit, I am told that I may suffer from dyslexia (actually, I do, and have admitted so before on-wiki, but I doubt the user in question was aware of this), but my disability, which has no effect on my ability to read (it is very minor and effects only my ability to recognize spelling mistakes) is used by someone who I am in a disagreement with to discredit my ability to understand their arguments (which I believe I understand completely.) I would appreciate someone who is not me asking or telling my adversary to comment on the content, not the contributor. Hipocrite (talk) 23:18, 25 February 2009 (UTC)

You need to notify the editor about this alert. Seems like an obvious personal attack to me. Maybe consider a talk page warning about commenting on content not editors. --neon white talk 00:54, 26 February 2009 (UTC)

I've taken care of the notification for you. Hopefully, we can get some input from the other editor on this one. Neon, I'll let you take care of any warning you see apropos. Edit Centric (talk) 04:26, 26 February 2009 (UTC)

The Editor who posted this notice is correct. I did not know he suffers from dyslexia. What I wrote was ,¨I´m beginning to suspect, Hipocrite, you may may suffer from dyslexia¨ which is not an unreasonable supposition if other Editors wish to comment AFTER reading the history between Hipocrite and myself.

You will come to the conclusion I have been extremely patient and civil with this editor since he placed the tag nominating my BLP for deletion February 14. Having failed in that effort, the day after, he then started editing and deleting the article piecemeal, removing ALL WORDS showing the subject in a positive light, leaving only snippets of information that would leave any reader with a negative impression of the subject in blatant violation of Misplaced Pages NPOV policies and guidelines. Finally other Editors had no choice but to intervene.

This editor then followed me to another Article Cana I was attempting to improve, and reverted all my edits unilaterally without any discussion in the Article talk.

I echo the comment, ¨I would appreciate someone who is not me¨ reviewing the history of Ray Joseph Cormier and Hipocrite. DoDaCanaDa (talk) 13:37, 26 February 2009 (UTC)

You might also wish to check DoDaCanaDa's contribs on my talk page. They may be illuminating, as well. In fact, just randomly check a few of DoDaCanaDa's contribs. KillerChihuahua 13:58, 26 February 2009 (UTC)

I've removed a lot of OR, badly sourced stuff, etc from Cana in the last 24 hours, I don't know how much of that id DoDaCanaDa's, but he obviously doesn't understand our policies on reliable sources and original research. dougweller (talk) 14:09, 26 February 2009 (UTC)

Of course, he does not appear to understand WP:OWN either ... (talk→ Bwilkins / BMW ←track) 14:12, 26 February 2009 (UTC)

I should probably state that it might be due to my suggestions that DoDa is at Cana at all - I noted that all 50 of his article edits (as it was) were to the article about himself, and mentioned SPA accounts. If he is there due to my hints, then we should welcome his desire to move beyond just his article and learn to edit Misplaced Pages - and it seems sourcing is one of the first places he will need help. It is a pity he is still being rude and dismissive of others, and making further personal attacks. DoDa, I suggest you treat your fellow editors with more courtesy. KillerChihuahua 15:14, 26 February 2009 (UTC)

Indeed, I believe he is attempting to contribute constructively to other areas of Misplaced Pages. However, he is being bold with little experience or understanding of Misplaced Pages policies. I think it is important that we don't bite the newbies. He's asked me for advice already re: Cana, and I'll try to help him out with learning about Misplaced Pages standards. The Jade Knight (talk) 23:39, 26 February 2009 (UTC)

Without delving into the content dispute, I have to say you have to be careful of the ownership language you use dodacanada. It is not your BLP, it is Misplaced Pages's article. Even if you had made every single constructive edit to an article that has been made over the past 5 years any other editor would have as much right to edit it as you have. You do not own the article, it is not your article, and understanding this may bring you a long way to resolving this conflict. Someone editing an article you have worked hard on developing is not an affront and should be welcomed, not discouraged. The Seeker 4 Talk 14:54, 26 February 2009 (UTC)

• Thank you for your comment. Let me unequivocally state I fully understand it is not ¨my¨ BLP even though it is. I will attempt to be more articulate when discussing it, DoDaCanaDa (talk) 16:08, 26 February 2009 (UTC)

Little bit of clarification: I understand it is an article about you. However, even with that understood calling it "your" article still smacks of ownership. I am not saying you feel you have ownership, but it tends to raise red flags when someone calls an article "their" article even if your intent is "the article about me." That said, editing an article about yourself or something you are directly related to is often a bad idea. There is no policy prohibiting it, but the WP:COI concerns means you need to provide even better sources and citations for claims you make to prove to fellow editors that you are trying to edit from a neutral POV. There is no assumption of bad faith in this statement, but it is a fact that it is nearly impossible to write about yourself from a neutral point of view, since one cannot be truely neutral about themselves. My advice would be to simply avoid the article about you for a bit, and only made additions to it if you have reliable third-party sources to cite your additions. It would also be a good idea to propose any changes on the talk page before you make them for other editors to comment. I only suggest this because of the aversion many editors have to people editing articles about themselves and the fact that it has already caused conflict (this WQA for example) that would be good to avoid in the future. Just my 2 cents. The Seeker 4 Talk 16:28, 26 February 2009 (UTC)

(outdent) Let's return to the scope of this WQA, which was a comment by DoDaCanaDa regarding another user. Discussion on WP:OWN can be dealt with off of this page, although, as can be clearly seen, it is the false idea of ownership that has led us here.

Let me summarize. DoDaCanaDa was the primary editor on an article. Others have become involved with that article, which is how Misplaced Pages works. DoDaCanaDa has done some improper reversions and edits (because of WP:OWN). DoDaCanaDa insulted Hipocrite - whether or not he knew Hipocrite was dyslexic is not important, although it could lead to increased sensitivity. Since this WQA was filed, DoDaCanaDa has justified the insult due to "history".

Let me be completely clear and bold, DoDaCanaDa: you never have the excuse to be uncivil towards another editor. Some past editing "issues" can explain the action, but will never excuse the action.

It appears that you were properly warned about WP:3RR violations. Regardless of your edit summary, your removal of that post is tacit acceptance of the warning. I will also be placing a warning for personal attacks on your page.

Please, carefully read WP:OWN, and stop discussing your article - it is an article that you have been involved with in collaboration with the community. (talk→ Bwilkins / BMW ←track) 17:09, 26 February 2009 (UTC).

I´m sorry, but your summary is just plain wrong. The history shows I did not edit Ray Joseph Cormier substantially since the old version as of June 22, 2008. I did stand guard for 8 months in hope some editor would come forward to improve it. I fended off all those who wanted to see it expunged in the talk pages. While no editors came forward to improve it, there were many detractors with many criticisms, but there were no positive suggestions for improvement.

On February 14, the complainant just surfs in, never being there before, nor ever discussed anything in the Talk, and just tags it with AfD. The Consensus was Keep. Out of that discussion, I now have confidence, assuming good faith, Sarcasticidealist will do the article justice in accordance with Misplaced Pages policies governing a BLP.

Being free now to explore Wikepedia to see where I could contribute and improve an Article, the complainant followed me there to Cana. I have been extremely patient and civil. This is the accurate summary. DoDaCanaDa (talk) 00:59, 27 February 2009 (UTC)

One minor difference in a portion of my summary does not negate the outcome. You were uncivil. (talk→ Bwilkins / BMW ←track) 09:50, 27 February 2009 (UTC)

Look, DoDaCanaDa, I don't care how may times you bold or italicize the same sentence, or otherwise try to justify your actions. You accused another editor of being dyslexic as an insult. Turns out, they are, which makes the comment even worse. If you're Canadian, you would know that's bad. Indeed, anywhere it's bad. Don't try and sugarcoat your actions any further. Your warnings are valid, and additional occurances may lead to administrative action. (talk→ Bwilkins / BMW ←track) 14:00, 27 February 2009 (UTC)

User:Hrafn

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

I'm concerned that there may be issues of WP:OWN, WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT or WP:GAME in this user's conduct at Talk:Quote mining. The user resists changes to the page frequently citing various policies despite disagreement from various editors. They also persistently fail to stay out of RfC discussions. Most editors seem to end up leaving in exasperation. I haven't notified the user as I don't wish to get involved, but feel the community should be informed of this potential issue. OrangeDog (talk • edits) 03:48, 27 February 2009 (UTC)

Well at any rate, since you brought this to WQA, you're now involved on some level. In line with this, you need to notify the user in question that you have brought this up here, and give him / her a chance to reply to this. Edit Centric (talk) 03:51, 27 February 2009 (UTC)

Done. OrangeDog (talk • edits) 04:22, 27 February 2009 (UTC)

I've butted heads with Hrafn on a number of occasions, although not recently. So, I give my perspective for the benefit of all involved, including Hrafn, without making any pretense of being uninvolved. Hrafn, you style yourself as a precisionist, and as such, you consistently challenge others to make the best contributions to Misplaced Pages possible. On the other hand, I believe you would benefit the project more if you added additional layers of civility to your preferred style of precisionism. Most of your edit summaries are polite, but some seem like they could be worded more neutrally without losing content. Some recent examples: , . Looking at a series of your recent talk page contributions, I see mostly civil and polite discourse, but this looks like part of an ongoing disagreement, and there's probably a bit of unnecesarily harsh language in there. To be honest, going through your contributions, it really seems to me that you've mellowed out a good bit since we butted heads, what, eight months ago? I want to encourage you to keep that up, really. The project needs people who do what you do, although the very effort of precisionism is going to invariably irritate some people. That can't be helped, but by continuing to increase your politeness and communication levels, that will be minimized to the greatest extent possible. One final bit of advice: When people rise to your standards, be sure to congratulate them. Everyone should be subject to your scrutiny once or twice, because I know the act of "defending" articles made me a much better editor. Cheers, Jclemens (talk) 06:59, 27 February 2009 (UTC)

I agree with Jclemens in that Hrafn challenges users to rise their sourcing standards. Several months ago, I created this article, thinking it was the best-sourced article in the world. Now I look back, after Hrafn driving me crazy for several months, and I think all the sources are awful. However, I must also agree with OrangeDog that Hrafn is often incivil and often lawyering his positions. I would advise you, Hrafn, to continue to add Reliable Sources to articles, and so on, but work on civility, and discuss changes with the contributing user before reverting good faith edits. I too was driven mad by him, and nearly retired over it. Think about the editors, Hrafn, not just wikitext. They're people. TheAE talk/sign 07:18, 27 February 2009 (UTC)

As shown by this section of the talk page, OrangeDog became involved through a well-meaning edit which I reverted as introducing original research and deleting properly sourced information, removing the the explanatory power of the article. While a number of editors feel that Quote mining should cover the Fallacy of quoting out of context used in various areas, almost all the sources using the term use it to refer to the creation-evolution controversy. I say almost all because I found two sources which refer to the creationist misuse being replicated in another controversy. I set great store on politeness, but it cuts both ways and editors should have the courtesy to comply with policy in finding sources to back up their proposed changes. . . dave souza, talk 09:58, 27 February 2009 (UTC)

It might be worth mentioning that Hrafn's editing style has on occasion provoke controversy previously, as can be seen here , and particularly noting Catherineyronwode's statement . I am not really familiar with the issues, but my recollection was that, at that time the outcome was that Hrafn voluntarily retired from editing WP. Malcolm Schosha (talk) 23:15, 27 February 2009 (UTC)

That Catherineyronwode's rant, which violated pretty much every behavioural guideline, as well as containing a fair amount of false information, and almost no accusations with even the glimmer of any basis whatsoever in policy, is discussed in a Wikiquette alert on anybody other than Catherineyronwode herself is an indictment of this forum. I will not bother to attempt to defend purported (and at worst very marginal) violations of Wikiquette detailed above, nor to document the (often more serious) Wikiquette lapses of my accusers. I will simply regard the invocation of Catherineyronwode's rant as analogous to Godwin's Law#Corollaries and usage and consider that any credible discussion is now over. Good day. Hrafn_Stalk(P) 03:36, 28 February 2009 (UTC)

While disputing the statement about WQA, I concur that the Catherineyronwode post is not remotely relevant to anything but Catherineyronwode. Hipocrite (talk) 06:07, 28 February 2009 (UTC)

This sort of reply -- ie, 'the other guy's views are an insult to my stature' -- are hardly unique to Hrafn. In fact, the attitude is so common that, if all such statements were accepted as true, it would be safe to assume that no WP editor was anything less than perfect. If only that were true. In fact, such a stance toward all criticism, and likewise toward even suggestions that editors A, B, or C are something less than perfect, renders all hope for improvements futile. To quote Pogo, "We have met the enemy, and he is us." Malcolm Schosha (talk) 13:03, 28 February 2009 (UTC)

The uniqueness of the reply does not in any way modify its veracity. In this case, it was, in fact, the man in black who did it. Catherineyronwode's long, er, thing, I remember from when she wrote it. It was neither valid nor relevant then. It is less so now. I can understand why someone, already harassed by Catherineyronwode's thing once having it brought up again in a wholly unrelated matter would determine that that the accuser had, at best, no understanding of anything going on, or, at worst, was actively attempting to disrupt the process. I suggest that if you want Hrafn to take you even remotely seriously, you not mention the Catherineyronwode thing ever again. Mentioning it demonstrates that you're not getting it. Hipocrite (talk) 14:26, 28 February 2009 (UTC)

Apparently your view is

1. Hipocrite is always right.
2. If Hipocrite should be wrong, refer to #1.

Another example of a WP:perfect editor. And how can anyone improve on such perfection? Strange, then, how with so many perfect editors WP is so messed up. By the way, if Hrafn should ever take me "seriously", or not, is entirely his own affair, and his -- apparently already perfectly correct -- views are in his own power not mine. (NB: I think it is likely that at least some points made by Catherineyronwode were valid, and it is unlikely there was no truth at all in her statement.) Malcolm Schosha (talk) 14:58, 28 February 2009 (UTC)

This is WP:WQA? And you are a regular participant here? Please remain civil. Hipocrite (talk) 15:19, 28 February 2009 (UTC)

You think it is a violation of WP:civil it say a user is not perfect?

You may recall that my first comment (above) was, It might be worth mentioning that Hrafn's editing style has on occasion provoke controversy previously, as can be seen here , and particularly noting Catherineyronwode's statement .

I think that is a valid point, and an important point, because it is rare to have a civility dispute brought here without there being other editing problems concerning goals and (particularly) editing methods. Malcolm Schosha (talk) 15:39, 28 February 2009 (UTC)

So, Cat was missing the point of MEDCAB and produced a long inaccurate screed in an effort to defend her habit of producing articles without reliable sources? That was another case where some editors apparently failed to understand that WP:V and WP:NOTE require such sources, and your assertion that it is "unlikely there was no truth at all in her statement" is an uncivil and unsourced smear. Given the elapsed time there seems to me to be no value in dragging up old badly supported allegations, but be clear that detailed diffs are needed for such a case, not mere handwaving. I strongly suggest that you strike your statements. . dave souza, talk 15:56, 28 February 2009 (UTC)

I remember your complete dismissal of Catherineyronwode at the time. But, she had a point to make, and I doubt that your claims of no validity, and no truth, are correct. Perhaps you could explain why you think my saying that it is unlikely there was no truth at all in her statement is "uncivil and a smear". And please leave off the wiki-lawyering which has already verged on being WP:disrupt. I set out a general principle that no human is perfect, and you want a source showing that principle specifically applies to you, Hipocrite, and Hrafn?! But you see no need for sources that show that the same applies to Catherineyronwode and Malcolm Schosha. Remarkable. In fact, the view of a general lack of human perfection is a fundamental in Greek and Roman philosophy, as explained here. Since this is not a WP article, and since I have no intention of creating an article to demonstrate the imperfection of any particular WP user, there is no need for me to supply a source documenting individual applications and instances....even if it might be amusing to do so. That lack of perfection certainly applies to me as well as other users. The stance that "I am completely right, and you are completely wrong," is the ruin of all efforts to resolve disputes. (The approach of the Zero-sum mentality always ends disputes with unhealed old wounds, and frequently by opening new wounds.) Malcolm Schosha (talk) 16:43, 28 February 2009 (UTC)

I suggest this section is archived as it is rapidly descending in tone and has digressed from the original complaint which required no action. Verbal chat 16:57, 28 February 2009 (UTC)

I have no objection to archiving this discussion. Malcolm Schosha (talk) 17:00, 28 February 2009 (UTC)

The point of WQA is to deal with problems of politeness and civility. Your comments about Hip are unnecessary, and would be inappropriate anywhere in Misplaced Pages. They're especially inappropriate here. Bringing up the Catherineyronwode issue is similarly inappropriate.

You said that you are unfamiliar with the issue. If so, then why bring it up? Hrafn runs afoul of a lot of editors because he asks for sources for questionable statements, and if none are added in the next several months, he often removes the content he sees as dubious. That has provoked conflict. In response to Madman's complaints last year, Hrafn agreed to try to be more civil. After that issue had gone stale, Catherineyronwode and Firefly started a campaign against Hrafn in which the main complaint was that he was applying policy, but which maintained a constant drumbeat of harassment. In response to that, he quit for a while. I assume you acted in good faith when you dredged up this issue, and that it isn't your intention to propagate old attacks and harassment. But that's what you have done. If you choose to dredge up old issues, it's really your responsibility to ensure that you understand what you are dredging up. The onus is on you to not further harass an editor.

To begin with, OrangeDog's accusation against Hrafn consists of allegations revolve around

• WP:OWN, which in a nutshell says: You do not own articles (nor templates and other features of Misplaced Pages). If you create or edit an article, know that others will edit it, and within reason you should not prevent them from doing so.
• WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT which says: In some cases, editors have perpetuated disputes by sticking to an allegation or viewpoint long after the consensus of the community has rejected it, repeating it almost without end, and refusing to acknowledge others' input or their own error
• WP:GAME which says: Playing games with policies and guidelines in order to avoid the spirit of communal consensus, or thwart the intent and spirit of policy, is strictly forbidden.

In support of this OD cited no diffs, but said

1. resists changes to the page frequently citing various policies despite disagreement from various editors
2. They also persistently fail to stay out of RfC discussions

To look at the second issue first, User:Arimareiji posted an RFC on the page on Jan 31. Hrafn replied saying that the RFC misrepresented the situation. A brief exchange ensured. On Feb 2, Arimareiji modified the RFC. Hrafn expressed continued unhappiness with the wording. There was no further input until OrangeDog commented on Feb 18, saying that involved parties shouldn't be so heavily involved in the RFC.

Apart from the fact that the discussion between Arimareiji and Hrafn was about how the RFC should be presented, neither of them edited the RFC after OD's comment. So complaining about "persistently fail to stay out of RfC discussions" is puzzling to say that least. Should involved editors refrain from commenting on how an RFC is framed? How is it "persistent"? How is it "discussions"?

The first complaint is more interesting. The complaint is that Hrafn "resists changes"..."citing various policies", and that he is doing that "despite disagreement from editors". Why is it against Wikiquette to cite policy? What other grounds do you have? Not to mention that OrangeDog's main issue with the article is a discussion over NOR with Dave Souza.

Last year, when the issue was raised, Hrafn said that he would try to be more polite. If Malcolm wants to dredge up a complaint that pre-dates that statement, the onus is clearly on his to show that Hrafn has broken his pledge. Malcolm: what evidence is there that Hrafn failed to improve his behaviour? If he hasn't, what basis do you have for bringing up his old behaviour? Your failure to "do your homework" isn't an excuse. You really owe Hrafn an apology.

Honestly, there's nothing to see here except perhaps that Malcolm owes Hrafn and Hip apologies for his thoughtlessness (to Hrafn) and rudeness (to Hip). Guettarda (talk) 17:10, 28 February 2009 (UTC)

Guettarda, of course I am sorry if they are upset by what I wrote. I said what I did because I think it is important, and I do not think I made any incorrect or abusive statements; but I recognize that that other users can honestly see things very differently from me. I would be happy if you, Dave Souza, and Hipocrite would be willing to concede a similar courtesy to Catherineyronwode, and other users who have complained of Hrafn's editing. But I do not expect that to happen. My whole point has been that humans are never perfect, and as one consequence of that fact about human nature, truth in these civility and editing disputes is virtually never entirely on one side. If you think my making that point violates WP:civil, I am sure you will pursue it further. Malcolm Schosha (talk) 17:46, 28 February 2009 (UTC)

Malcom, you were hinting that users thought they were perfect, which is why it raised hackles. No need to go on about it, I'm only saying. All the best, Gwen Gale (talk) 17:51, 28 February 2009 (UTC)

My impression is that they, rather clearly, have said the truth was on one side only, their side. If there was any willingness to concede any value at all to the complaints of others, I missed that. I would have liked seeing that. Malcolm Schosha (talk) 17:57, 28 February 2009 (UTC)

While I'm sure I'm just as imperfect as Malcolm, dragging up old arguments and saying that you're "not really familiar with the issues" but it is "unlikely there was no truth at all in her statement" is classic smear technique. As Guettarda has pointed out, Hrafn gave an undertaking to improve his etiquette, and the few diffs presented here show improvement, if not the perfection of gentility Malcolm might consider ideal. What I have noticed is that this section relates to an article where I disagreed with OrangeDog's attempt to introduce information lacking sources showing relevance to the topic of the article. Since OrangeDog has not provided diffs showing any substantial etiquette issue, the original issue appears to be resolved and this should now be archived. . dave souza, talk 18:11, 28 February 2009 (UTC)

A "classic smear technique"? Rather, I think you may be attempting to smear me, by suggesting that my criticism is totally without value, and ascribing nothing but bad faith to my intent. Just why do you think Hrafn is above criticism? You certainly do not think that about me, or Catherineyronwode; and you do not hesitate to imply that my views are worthless and are "smears." I understand when other users make a point that is critical of me, but worry when their negative evaluation of me is presented as the only possible valid view, and by a complete denial of my worth. Malcolm Schosha (talk) 18:54, 28 February 2009 (UTC)

<ec> You state that you're uninformed about an issue, but still feel that you can validly bring it up as an attack on another editor. Not good practice. I've made no comment on your other activities, I did some detailed investigation of the assertions presented by Catherineyronwode and found that those I checked out were based on blatant falsehoods, which I charitably assumed were due to incompetence rather than being deliberate lies: see my statement in this section as of 15:09, 14 September 2008. This is not in any way a statement that either party is all good or all bad, it does call the assertions into question. Now, have you diffs to back up your assertions in detail, or are you just making unjustified allegations in, of all places, WQA? It's already been stated that you owe Hrafn and Hip apologies, and you'd certainly go up in my esteem if you give such apologies unreservedly. . dave souza, talk 19:10, 28 February 2009 (UTC)

I do agree with Dave souza that this discussion could be archived at this point. Malcolm Schosha (talk) 19:03, 28 February 2009 (UTC)

Dave souza, in this whole discussion I made two points, one of them rather secondary

1. Hrafn has a history of creating dissention by his approach to editing. That is the secondary point, and a response to the claims that Hrafn does no wrong.
2. Because of the unavoidable imperfections of human nature, trying to classify one side in an argument as good and the other as bad, is a distortion the real nature of a situation in which one side is seldom (if ever) completely all good, or all bad.

Contrary to your accusation, I do not consider Hrafn to be a bad WP user. Rather the contrary, I suppose he is a good editor. What I have been trying to get is some slight concession that different users can honestly see things very differently without one of them being bad and the other good. I can consider both Hrafn and Catherineyronwode as having many dgood qualities as editors. I really do not understand why it is so difficult to concede that point. Malcolm Schosha (talk) 19:37, 28 February 2009 (UTC)

I've conceded that no-one's perfect, please read what I've written with care. However, you've not conceded that you're dragging up an old case with no evidence that it has any merit. Trust me, it hasn't. Catherineyronwode doubtless did excellent work in some areas, but these assertions were not good. I'm sure you've raised this in good faith on the assumption that you didn't have to check the validity of those assertions, but that's not a good way of achieving harmony and I really don't understand why you're so unwilling to let it go. Of course I fully agree with the value of courtesy from all parties, but the much-needed task of asking that information is properly supported by sources is commonly met with dissension and sometimes a degree of bluntness is appropriate. So, I hope you'll agree that it's nice to be nice, and will apologise for harassing Hrafn, doubtless with the best of intentions, and for being rather rude to Hipocrite. I shall of course continue to urge everyone to be on their best behaviour, at the same time as accepting that no-one's perfect. . dave souza, talk 20:50, 28 February 2009 (UTC)

I included the link, pointing out that this user has a history of highly controversial editing methods. In the context of a complaint on this Wikiquette alerts board, and with a series of defenses of his methods tending to suggest that he just about perfect; there should be no big deal about such a link. In fact it was Hrafn's defenders who chose to dwell on that link, and make a big deal about it. Without that, it would have been nothing more than what I intended it to be, an example that there are some WP users who do not think he is perfect. There was no need for me to supply supporting sources for my central point, which never anything other than a call to keep in mind that the right may be weighted to one side or the other, but is almost never completely on just one side. I think that is a point obvious without sources. If my giving that link upset Hrafn and some of his supporters, I am sorry. My intent was not to indite him for anything beyond the imperfection shared by all humanity. As for my defense of Catherineyronwode, I have no intention to abandon to unbalanced attacks an intelligent editor, who has contributed much that is good to WP, and who is one of the few WP users who is notable enough to have her own article. Malcolm Schosha (talk) 21:24, 28 February 2009 (UTC)

So you've been wasting our time to tell us that Hrafn's just as imperfect sa we all are, though I didn't notice anyone claiming that he's a saint, and are still clinging to the idea that Catherineyronwode produced a competent complaint? Doubtless she has other virtues, but careful analysis of evidence was not evident in the nonsense she produced. The only reason she's even been discussed here was because you introduced links to her dodgy "evidence". Seriously, let it go. And so to bed, goodnight all. . . dave souza, talk 21:40, 28 February 2009 (UTC)

Wasting your time?! I made a very few simple and (I think) obvious statements, and a bunch of other editors reacted like it was Battle of Thermopylae. And, as is clear from reading the comments above, your concern about criticisms of users did not extend beyond concern for criticism of one single user. About me, and Catherineyronwode, you said some things that were WP:NPA. Your calling the link to the mediation case "evidence" is bullshit. This is a Wikiquette discussion, not an arbitration case. I can that a more informal approach here if I choose to, which I do. If you think I have violated any WP rule by doing that, link this discussion to AN/I, and I will finish this argument with you there. Malcolm Schosha (talk) 22:08, 28 February 2009 (UTC)

Malcolm, I said enough. I archived this WQA because this convo track was getting nowhere rapidly. It's O V E R. Time to move on. Any further disruption or incivility like above will only further exacerbate things, and may result in your being blocked. Edit Centric (talk) 22:36, 28 February 2009 (UTC)

user:SarekOfVulcan has engaged in harassment, stalking and defamation

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The issue is explained in great detail in my talk page.

He has been trolling me on Masonic conspiracy theories, leaving off-topic and provocative comments.

He responded to a WP:ANI complaint that I filed, going so far as to include an immature stoner joke.

He followed me to a page I was working on and then deleted links, causing me to react in a way to get me blocked for 2 weeks.

He filed a WP:WQA complaint for that matter, which had been "resolved" 30 minutes earlier, and then summarily deleted it, not wishing for anyone to comment. The rationale for the admin action seemed to almost exactly mirror the complaint, which seems rather peculiar.

His WP:WQA contained, among other things, false and defamatory statements, observations based on false inferences and details of activity unrelated to him.

No reasonable person in my situation would have been delighted. Ukufwakfgr (talk) 03:52, 27 February 2009 (UTC)

In other words, I'm guessing that the WQA that has already been filed never got resolved then? Also, and understand that I'm BIG on "taking the onus for one's modus", no one can cause you to react, the way you react to a situation is your choice. (Trust me, I've done some pretty bone-headed things!)

If this has been (or is being) addressed at WQA and ANI already, then that is where this should be placed. Edit Centric (talk) 04:01, 27 February 2009 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages policy goes against provocation. SarekOfVulcan had no good reason to do what he did, given the situation.

SarekOfVulcan deleted the WQA. Bwilkins claims that he restored SarekOfVulcan's change to the article, undeleted WQA, then marked it as resolved. It was then archived shortly thereafter. Ukufwakfgr (talk) 04:53, 27 February 2009 (UTC)

This thread is prompting me to un-watchlist this forum. Unbelievable. Tan | 39 05:29, 27 February 2009 (UTC)

Looking through some of this briefly, I'm already seeing the following;

• The User:Ukufwakfgr account is only 1 month old, which means that you may be new to Misplaced Pages.
• All edits from this account are consistent with being an "SPA", or Single-purpose Account, in that you're edits are all on three "highly contentious" articles.
• User account Ukufwakfgr has been blocked twice for disruptive editing, personal attacks and harassment since it was created.

I'm seeing a track record here, one that needs to be departed from with a sense of urgency, Ukufwakfgr. Might I suggest taking a break from the three articles that you seem to be focused on, and moving over to another area of Wiki for a while, thereby disengaging from the situation as a whole? Edit Centric (talk) 05:38, 27 February 2009 (UTC)

That editor now has a break. Blocked indefinitely for disruption. Toddst1 (talk) 06:03, 27 February 2009 (UTC)

Well, I guess that answers that. Thanks, Toddst. Edit Centric (talk) 06:31, 27 February 2009 (UTC)

User:Jimintheatl

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Can anybody let this user that this edit summary is not helpful or needed? Thank you, --Tom 14:49, 27 February 2009 (UTC)

I see you've already done that in 2 places ... what more can we do? (talk→ Bwilkins / BMW ←track) 14:57, 27 February 2009 (UTC)

Hope for world peace :) Seriously, since this user thinks I am a troll, I thought an admin or dis-interested party would be better to advise. Anyways, I hear ya, --Tom 15:03, 27 February 2009 (UTC)

Scripturalreasoning (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log) general disruption

There has been a long pattern of COI and disruption on the part of this editor and I'd like some additional eyes on this as I have now been accused of "purely direct personal abuse". See these discussions in roughly chronological order:

• User_talk:Scripturalreasoning#Beyond_conflict_of_interest where my alleged abuse took place in this edit
• A long painful thread on ANI about this editor where some admins were generally frustrated and may have transgressed decorum when referring to this editor.
• Now the accusations against me User_talk:Toddst1#Personal_Attacks including my "improper" direction to the discussion on ANI

I think we have a problem here. Toddst1 (talk) 16:04, 27 February 2009 (UTC)

Note: While the other admins' behavior has been discussed ad nauseum on ANI, I'd like to focus on Scripturalreasoning's edits please. We got pretty far afield and lost track of the original issue there. Toddst1 (talk) 16:04, 27 February 2009 (UTC)

• • • To paraphrase Larry Sanger, it's time to show him the door. PhilKnight (talk) 17:08, 27 February 2009 (UTC)

It's going to take me a bit to get "up to speed" on this one, but I'll look at it, since I wasn't involved in the original AN/I... Edit Centric (talk) 18:48, 27 February 2009 (UTC)

(outdent) Wow! After bouncing around the Wiki awhile, opening some more windows (I can do that though, see my userpage!) and getting a feel for the sitch-ee-ashun, I've got to agree with Toddst1, in that there is clear evidence of COI on the part of User:Scripturalreasoning, and no apparent "direct personal abuse" on Toddst1's part. Now I could get into that whole ballywick of other editors' comments at ANI, but like Toddst1 said, it's been discussed ad nauseum already.

Scriptural Reasoning, I'm not about to sit here and pontificate, proselytize or do the "WWJD" angle. Yes, I have "faith", but this is not the venue for proselytizing. This is an on-line encyclopedia. As such, and as an editor that has been here for as long as you have, you should know that we have guidelines and policies. We have these for a reason.

In addition, your issuance of a template warning is perfectly fine "according to Hoyle", but would have been better addressed in a venue such as this one, if you believed you indeed had been slighted. Addressing this in the manner that you did looks like nothing beyond possible posturing and Wiki-lawyering, and tends to ring hollow.

When Toddst1 directed you to the ANI in progress, he was doing exactly that. It was not his intention to deliberately direct you to a page where others were telling you to "F- off", as you assert. Nothing of the sort! Again, we're not going to get into the behaviours of other editors at the ANI, that has been dealt with. This WQA is not about them. It's about possible disruption to Misplaced Pages. Edit Centric (talk) 19:14, 27 February 2009 (UTC)

User:Lomcevak, User:Fetler, and Natascha Engel

There's an ongoing issue between User:Lomcevak, User:Fetler and occasionally User:Levret, primarily over edits and assumed ownership of the Natascha Engel article. There have been accusations of sock puppetry, uncivil communications, revert wars, and much more too extensive to explain here. The bulk of their related communications are at User talk:Lomcevak as User:Fetler has removed Lomcevak's comments from their talk page. Pretzels 17:04, 28 February 2009 (UTC)

Well, it's not against the rules for a user to remove / clear comments from their talk page, I personally keep all my interactions archived for future review if necessary. Lemme look at this one... Edit Centric (talk) 17:09, 28 February 2009 (UTC)

Pretzels, did you notify the other users that you had filed this WQA? In my preliminaries, I'm already not liking what I'm seeing in yours and Lomcevak's edits to Fetler's talk page. I'll address it here once everyone's been adequately notified and is able to review what needs addressed. Edit Centric (talk) 17:36, 28 February 2009 (UTC)

Now that the other two editors have been notified, I will address these items that are troubling;

• Lomcevak's reverting of Fetler's talk page can be considered vandalism, as it is interfering with that user's maintenance of their own talk page. Warning to Lomcevak - Stop, don't do that. Whatever is going on at the article(s), needs to remain a constructive, content-centered discussion there. Your continued interference with Fetler's talk page will get you blocked. It's uncivil, it's rude, and it's imposing your will on another editor's own talk space. Not kosher.
• Pretzels, Fetler is perfectly within his sphere to revert, delete and otherwise maintain his talk page. Warning to Pretzels - Same as addressed to Lomcevak.

Now that that tidbit has been cleared up, I don't see, looking through the talk page at the article, any overt references to ownership being made by anyone. I could have missed something, if there is a specific diff, by all means reference it. I will say this though, articles here at Misplaced Pages do not belong to anyone in particular. By submitting content to Misplaced Pages, you grant Misplaced Pages the rights to that content. Edit Centric (talk) 18:04, 28 February 2009 (UTC)

• User_talk:Lomcevak#You_just_don.27t_get_it_do_you_.28ACCOUNTABILITY_that_is.29:_.3F_Sockpuppetry contains questionably inappropriate remarks towards Fetler
• This history listing has the edits in question, by Fetler, Lomcevak and anonymous IPs (as Lomcevak noted, from Fetler's university)

Pretzels 19:28, 28 February 2009 (UTC)

I'm still waiting for Lomcevak to come and explain what's going on, but in the meantime, I'm seeing that the SPI was already put to bed, so we're not going to go there. At this point, I would strongly counsel all editors involved to try to maintain civility and NPOV in this situation and any edits that are performed. (No snipe comments in the edit descriptors, either.) Edit Centric (talk) 21:34, 28 February 2009 (UTC)

• I believe I have supplied all relevant references, taking a great deal of time to do this. The problems start when User:Fetler simply wishes to redact relevant information, submitted to his page in good faith when responding to his concerns. When such responses don't appear to fit his (postmodern) 'narrative' then they simple go down the memory hole. It may be legit. but where's the 'good faith?' I like you let all stand, 'warts 'n all' for all to see.

• I didn't presume 'ownership,' as alleged by Fetler, in fact, you have examined all the history of this matter ... I went into some detail as to how to 'constructively' engage without pissing-off all the rest of the previous contributors ... of which there were many before me. And thus you found no presumption of ownership. However, I was concerned for 'quality assurance!'

• Fetler was the first to revert to abuse ... in his allegations of my 'assumed' ('assumptions' make an 'ass' out of you and me) ownership and likening me to a 'screaming infant' ... (together with chucking toys out of my pram?) ... and where it was his behavior that seemed to exhibit exactly this syndrome when he came to realize, finally, that the changes he wanted could not be, willy-nilly, made to Engel's article.

• That is he couldn't assume ... ownership.

• After being very patient with this guy, at this I went closer to the edge ... but noted in my response that I was holding wiki standards in mind.

• Of course, Fetler redacts all of this from his records, such that interested parties have so much more a headache in piecing the 'true picture' together ... leaving him basking in the satisfaction of a conflation job 'well-done' and a nod in the direction of, 'I make up the truth' ... Mandelsonian (March/April 99 - I was Mandy's first victim by John Booth written for: Journalist - bi-monthly organ of the National Union of Journalists ) postmodernism.

• An authentic New Labour stance, strategy and tactical deployment.

• Congratulations, Fetler ... you look to me as though you're positioning yourself for a 'safe-seat,' 'some where' ... (maybe even Natascha's ?: I just merely ask the question? ... LOL)

• You couldn't do much worse (than she has done) and been more worthless (than she has been - union relations with 'them' at the 'coal face' on everything) ... 'Cummon down (one) Fetler...' LOL ... ROTFL ...

....yield to us your gracious and infinite experience ...

• Cummon, Natascha ... how about all that ACA you need to rake in right now ... will you ever come clean ? No, you won't. Oh, by the way ... you are a LIAR ... when you say you respond to everything to that your constituents ask.

Lomcevak (talk) 11:51, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

P.S. Edit Centric

Please be a 'bit' more sensitive, yourself.

Please don't use phrases like 'not kosher' to me (or to anybody else for that matter). You have no idea of what my (or their) ethnic background is ... and to use it (the phrase) in this sense, as, I have frequently heard it, as a throw-away/insulting remark for 'slavishly going by (Jewish) Law (Torah from YHWH - Yahweh - to Moses)' seems to me to be simply 'gratuitous.' It may be well-intentioned, as a 'not for goyim (how do gentiles like that ?) only' Howard Stern understressing ...

....but you didn't need to use it, here, as far as I can see.

P.P.S. Natascha Engel ... it's not stopping ... there's more to come ... and remember I said, 'It's all about ACCOUNTABILITY.'

We 'WILL' hold you to account ... though my democratic rights.

Lomcevak (talk) 14:28, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

WQA with cross-complaint Ikip, THF and Collect

WQA against Ikip

I have several complaints about the uncivil behavior of Ikip (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log), largely over his conduct on the talk page of Business Plot (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views). This is a civility dispute, though Ikip, in his statement, is trying to characterize it as just a content dispute. Ikip has already been blocked once over this behavior, but has continued it.

Ikip:

• Update, 2 March: makes threat against me on my talk page, gets warning from Cool Hand Luke.
• Update, 2 March: makes bad-faith accusation of COI at WT:COI -- see resolution at Misplaced Pages:Administrators'_noticeboard/Incidents#Misplaced Pages:Articles_for_deletion.2FDave_Johnson_.28blogger.29.
• Update, 2 March: continues to abuse WP:TALK by using article talk-page to make personal attack irrelevant to article (NB that Ikip was blocked for precisely the complaint he complains I made)
• Repeatedly falsely characterizes a series of good-faith edits unique to me that I've made only once as "edit-warring." (and many many more times) even though I haven't even violated 1RR.
• Asks me the exact same question nine times on Talk:Business Plot and a number of other times on my talk page and elsewhere. I answered it the first time, two other editors agreed with my interpretation of Misplaced Pages policy about the inclusion of lists of miscellaneous trivia, and he never acknowledged the answer or the other editors, and has continued to demand an answer from me and falsely (and ironically) claims I am violating WP:TEDIOUS because I haven't answered him.
• Repeats the same argument word-for-word in a subsection in response to every single editor that disagrees with him, but never acknowledges the responses to that argument. (e.g., here, where he posted the same misleading quote from a congressional subcommittee four separate times in under 24 hours; or, here, where he repeated word-for-word the same comment twice in half an hour, both times ignoring the substantive argument being made.
• Creates ginormous charts on talk pages that falsely claim to represent my position in issues, that clutter up the talk page and are impossible to respond to in a manner that a third person can read, and then objects and reverts me when I try to edit the column that misleadingly says "THF response" to respond to his questions.
• And then leaves a second copy of the ginormous chart on my talk page in violation of WP:MULTI, though he knows darn well I've seen it on the article talk page.
• Creates an RFC for the article that is actually a personal attack in violation of WP:RFC.
• Moves my user-talk page comments to an article-talk-page with my signature, making it falsely seem like I have violated WP:TALK by using an article talk page to leave a personal comment.
• Deleting my comments with fake edit summaries falsely calling them personal attacks.
• In violation of WP:REDACT, modifies his talk-page comments after other editors have responded to them (without strikethroughs or any other indication of modification), making those other editors look like they're spouting non sequiturs. See, e.g., these 19 consecutive edits to the talk page.
• Copies and pastes existing talk-page discussions so that they are taking place in two different parts of the talk page.
• Falsely accuses me of "tag-teaming" with User:Collect against him, when, in fact, the first time I ran into Ikip, he and Collect were together arguing against me on cluster at Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Morton Brilliant (2nd nomination).
• Perversely mentors a new editor to edit-war against me and ignore a 3RR warning and the NOR rules on an unrelated page, Skull & Bones, where three separate editors agreed (and the newbie essentially admitted on the talk page) that the newbie's insertions and reversions violated WP:OR.
• Follows me to pages he has not previously edited on to badger me about Business Plot and my supposed conspiracy with Collect.
• (Pre-block) Brought a retaliatory bad-faith MfD on an essay I wrote, again falsely characterizing it as a personal attack.

All of this makes the Talk:Business Plot page impossible to read by existing editors, not to mention impossible to get outside editors to wade in and help resolve content disputes. (Update 15:53, 1 March 2009 (UTC) -- NB that after this WQA was opened, Ikip started redacting the talk page.)

Apologies that diffs are difficult to find: as you can see from Talk:Business Plot, Ikip has made well over 100 edits to that talk page in the last 48 hours. A couple of times, I made the mistake of trying to consolidate duplicated (as in copied-and-pasted) conversations in a single section, or to {{collapse}} overlengthy sections and he'd just revert me, making the history even more confusing. It isn't even enough to let him have the WP:LASTWORD, because he'll keep badgering and badgering and treat a failure to respond between, say, 5 and 10 in the morning Eastern Time as a reason to accuse an editor of bad faith.

This seems to be an attempt to overwhelm and badger away other editors and ensure ownership of a page that is seriously out of compliance with Misplaced Pages policy (for example, giving higher priority to an amateur conspiracy theorist over Arthur Schlesinger): it's impossible for any new editor to the page to figure out what the content dispute is. At best, it's someone who doesn't begin to understand Misplaced Pages rules or WP:NOT#BATTLE or WP:STICK, except he is an experienced editor who should really know better.

He's already been blocked once for hounding me, so I'm at my wit's end. Is he allowed to chase me away from an article by bad behavior? (I can't even disengage, because he's followed me to other pages to complain about my edits on Business Plot.) Does Misplaced Pages endorse the heckler's veto?

I predict that Ikip is going to respond with a lot of allegations about the content dispute; this isn't about the content dispute, it's about his method of conducting the content dispute. For example, I changed the name of the article to Business Plot conspiracy theory to conform the article title to other similar conspiracy theory articles; Ikip immediately reverted me, and I immediately took the issue to the talk page. All of this is perfectly reasonable within the be-bold/revert/discuss cycle, but Ikip is still complaining that I made the page move and making false accusations about it as "edit-warring," and will complain about it again below. THF (talk) 07:28, 1 March 2009 (UTC), updated 00:11, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

• • Update, 2 March: Ikip deletes my talk-page comment again, and threatens to harass me on my talk page. THF (talk) 12:44, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

• This is more of a general comment rather than a request or suggestion since I do not consider myself a neutral observer. I'm posting to point out that Ikip's behaviour has come under scrutiny in an unrelated case just this past week. I had a run-in with him and the two main issues I had were regarding WP:CANVASS and WP:BATTLE, the second of which you bring up here. A brief discussion for a user RfC occured but nothing has happened yet. This was about a different set of circumstances, mostly regarding the Article Rescue Squadron, so I won't ask for comment here, but I thought I'd mention that some of the behaviour you accuse him of has been noticed outside of the article you are dealing with. Themfromspace (talk) 10:20, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

>>Place holder<< See User:THC and User:Collect below. Ikip (talk) 10:29, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

• • Themfromspace's comment that "Ikip's behaviour has come under scrutiny in an unrelated case just this past week" probably relates to this ANI discussion. May I point out that "Ikip's behaviour under scrutiny" related not to what he had done, but what he may or may not do at some some future time - i.e. pure speculation. The discussion was closed with "there's nothing here not but You Said, No You Said, I Didn't Say, Spammer, No u, No U, and so on". It is simply unfair to bring this matter into play here. It says more about the close scrutiny Ikip is under and the personal flak that he receives, than it says about any of his misgivings. He is a passionate defender of the five pillars of Wiki. And yes, he seems to be human too, sometimes he crosses the line, and yes, he was rightly blocked for 3 hours, as I see for failing to respond to an uninvolved admin's intervention in the dispute between Ikip and THF. I have certainly seen worse conduct on Wiki that did not result in blocks. Power.corrupts (talk) 14:11, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

Ikip was not blocked for "failing to respond to an administrator." Ikip was blocked because he was told to leave me alone and instead we saw: . THF (talk) 15:07, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

Note: See how Ikip views this page at . As a "circus." He has since added " It is the greatest show on Earth, until the next greatest show on Earth comes along sometime tomorrow." shows him soliciting others to complain. (other examples available - but this is blatant) He uses threats blatantly per ] note: "I have already added a: Misplaced Pages:Third_opinion#Active_disagreements. If you do not stop, I will begin searching for editors on Joe the Plumber, and other pages you recklessly edit war on, to co-endorse a RfC against you. I have had it with your tedious edit warring, deleting so much well referenced text. In preperation for the RfC, I will then systamtically dig through your entire edit history, as I have done with countless other admins before. 03:15, 22 February 2009 (UTC)" which makes a mockery of how he views WP processes. showing his attitude towards editors in general: "you seem to have some pretty prominent editors who delete a lot of material from Misplaced Pages on your talk page, so you must be doing something right. Ikip (talk) 00:50, 1 March 2009 (UTC) Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org/User_talk:Dream_Focus" and the corresponding On his attitude toward rules which contained explicit detail on how to have an undetectable sockpuppet. (see the Machiavelli section). I endorse the complaint against Ikip here. Collect (talk) 14:47, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

• Collect,above, provides a dif, from a discussion on my talk page, which supports Collect's opinion. Here is the follow up , by Ikip on the exact same matter, which, obviously, should have also been referenced in order to give a fair representation of Ikip's final nature on that matter. I have found Ikip to be helpful to me in dealing with unfriendly edits coming toward me and I have found Ikip to be,overall, the editor most attempting to build consensus rather than taking an absolute or overwhelming position on article development. I support Ikip in his defence and do not think this complaint has merit. Abbarocks (talk) 15:45, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

  • • THF, I read through the first three things you linked to. I don't see anything there that he did wrong. Those large charts you complain about only take up one line, no one seeing them unless they click "show". You appear to want to delete large amounts of an article, which he believes are fine the way that they are. Thus you have an edit war going. I see nothing you have mentioned or linked to which adds any merit to your complaint. Dream Focus 16:16, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

That's not what "edit war" means. The charts took up half the page when Ikip added them. The only reason the charts take up a line is because Ikip ran out of reverts trying to restore them after I collapsed them, as I clearly indicate in my statement. THF (talk) 16:35, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

The charts were not hidden until THF made them so. They did not "take up only one line" at a;;. Thanks! Collect (talk) 16:30, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

User Ikip is a senior editor have been in Misplaced Pages since October 2005.As an outside observer, I find User:THC behavior toward the new editor Abbarocks and some other editors awkward . A quick look at THC| edits shows that he calls other editors meat puppetsdiff, delusional, and new editors good faith edits "vandalism". He also seem to assume the worst in other contrary to , here he calls other editors POV pushers, cabal and terrorist lovers Diff. He seems to have WP:OWN issues on all of the articles he edits, and he seems to WP:Wikilawyer more than most editors. It seems like User:Ikips behavior definitely do not happen in a vacuum.But feel both the users should move forward and reconcile with due respect user THF has also contributed with wikipedia and respect his right to his opinion but his wording are clearly undiplomatic. Pharaoh of the Wizards (talk) 16:36, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

Admins, please note that Pharaoh's diffs do not support any of his false allegations against me. I invite admins to look at my edits to User talk:Abbarocks, who has repeatedly edit-warred to violate NOR, and tell me if I could have handled that differently; Abbarocks certainly doesn't seem to have a problem with it. THF (talk) 16:58, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

THF Abbarocks is a new user and has been around less than 3 months diff .You have been the only user repeatedly warning him/her no one else and getting involved into an edit war with a new user which is harsh on new users.I do not find any outright vandalism from user Abbarocks this is clearly WP:BITE .My apologies if you were hurt by my comments really it is more about moving forward.Pharaoh of the Wizards (talk) 17:10, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

The record will reflect that three separate editors found Abbarocks's insertion of OR into the article inappropriate; the only one "edit-warring" was Abbarocks, who refused to defend his edits on the talk page and continually reinserted it with false edit summaries like "not OR" despite the consensus against him. I think I avoided WP:BITE in trying to let an editor know he was violating the rules, including the 3RR rule. I pointed him to the various policies, made repeated attempts to explain the policies, responded to his questions, encouraged his good edits, and pointed him to WP:HD and WP:NORN for further guidance. What more could I have done other than to ignore the policy violation? New editors don't get carte blanche. THF (talk) 17:25, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

They do not get "carte blanche". If they are showing a wish to improve the project they should get a bit of guidence and schooling. This seems to have devolved into a tennis match between you and Ikip with Abbarocks being used as the ball. Schmidt, 19:51, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

I provided "guidance and schooling," as Abbarocks himself has said. If you have evidence to the contrary, please provide the diff instead of making unfounded accusations. The only relevance Abbarocks has to the controversy is that Ikip interposed himself in a content dispute on an unrelated page. Even without that, Ikip has been violating WP:HOUND even after he was blocked for doing so. THF (talk) 19:54, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

I suppose that Abbarock's statement that at some point you called him Ikip's meatpuppet needs to be sourced But the diffs provided above seem to show him standing in the middle of a larger battlefield. My thought here is that guidence and schooling should not involve anyone having to wear a flak jacket. Sorry, but that is my impression of what this has devolved into for him, no matter how it began. Schmidt, 21:38, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

(ouitdent) In response to THF visits to my talk page and questioning my comment above, I learned that Abbarock's impression that he was being called a meatpuppet stemmed from a misunderstanding when he was being cautioned to not become one. I am now aware of this misunderstanding and have struck the sentence above that referred to it. Schmidt, 00:01, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

Here's the dif with meatpuppet reference at the bottom.THF and I have settled the matter amicably. Abbarocks (talk) 05:33, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

• This just seems to be various editors backbiting and squabbling with each other. 1. Follow the rules at WP:CIVIL. 2.Use dispute resolution to resolve content disputes. --neon white talk 23:43, 1 March 2009 (UTC)
  • I agree. It was tempting to put the trout slapping template here. This thread is just more effort focused on "tattle tale" antics than encyclopedia writing. We are here to write an encyclopedia after all and should resume writing an encyclopedia. The best solution would be for thr editors to work together to rescue an article or if that fails, ignore your opponents as much as possible. Ikip has created scores of articles. That counts for a lot here and he has pretty much always been helpful and friendly with me. I doubt I agree with him on everything, but if he can get along with me, I'm sure he can with others. Strongly suggest withdrawing this thread and recommend working constructively to rescue some articles or just avoid him if you don't want to try a collegial approach. Best, --A Nobody 03:56, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

Update: shows Ikip continuing his behavior even during this process. (note edit summaries) entering other talk pages in order to cause wikidrama, shows his colors again. Neither THF nor I have in any way encouraged such activities on Ikip's part. He does stress his support here -- though I suggest that canvassed support in some cases should be given lighter weight. Collect (talk) 15:19, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

Response against User:THF and User:Collect

Hello editors, I am new to this process so please forgive me. It's with heavy heart that I respond to this Wikiquette alert. It is not my intent to reignite the tempers which flared on several article pages and various talk pages. I respond to this Wikiquette alert because I feel what fueled this fire for so long was a level of personal attacks and edit wars in the form of unsubstantiated accusations which do nothing to serve the goals of the encyclopedia. This Wikiquette alert is necessary to give the involved parties an opportunity to substantiate their claims, and to give the community the opportunity to clarify what level of claims constitute opinion/constitute constructive edits or personal attacks/edit warring. The disruptive behavior on Business Plot is not unique to the page alone, unfortunatly for the project, these two editors have disruptived several pages and been uncivil to several other editors.

I have been editing since 30 September 2005. I started to edit Business Plot on 17 November 2005, when it looked like this, without a single reference, and 6 external liks. Through years of comprimise, hard work, give and take, between numerous editors, we built the page to look like this (as of 17 December 2008), with 56 references, and a large External link and Further reading section. On 17 December 2008, User:Collect began edit warring with some editors over the first sentence of the article. I stayed out of it, until 11:23, 19 February 2009 when User:Collect removed the alternate names with the incorrect statement, "alternate names have only a scattered handful of uses -- many tracing back to THIS page." I reverted, and then collect reverted back, stating with another incorrect statment: ""alternate names" esp "putsch" are POV and RARE on any source not sourcing back to WP <g> WP is not a valid source" I then sourced this disputed section, with 7 sources, many new. In retliation, User:Collect deleted 1,184 well referenced words, 3 pages of text, with no conversation on the talk page before. The reasons given were illogical and showed a general misunderstanding of the historical incident. This began the current edit war.

(more) Ikip (talk) 10:35, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

I guess Ikip liked this ArbCom statement, because, he seems to have borrowed heavily from it. PhilKnight (talk) 10:47, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

Hello again Phil, nice to see you. Yeah, isn't it the greatest introduction ever? Inspiring. They say imitation is the greatest form of flattery. :) 10:50, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

(edit conflict)(To Ikip) Is the heading necessary? It implies that you started a Wikiquette alert yourself. I haven't posted here much either, but I think that all the information regarding you, and THF should be under the same heading for procedural purposes. I don't really know what to do about the copy/paste statement since I'm not sure if Ikip broke any sort of Misplaced Pages formalities by lifting InkSplotch's wording. Ikip, to be on the safe side, I'd reword it if I were you, or at least state where you borrowed it from. Themfromspace (talk) 10:55, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

Nice to see you too, Themfromspace. Philknight was kind enough to provide this notification, so I don't think any further notification is necessary. I appreciate your pressing concern for wikipolicy and copyright, and I am sure in the days to come on this page, you will diligently continue to repeatedly point out what rules I am not aware of or am not following, as you have repeatedly in the past in several forums, to help me understand wikipolicy better. We are all here to help the project, and I appreciate your continued support.Ikip (talk) 11:07, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

• I recently encountered User:Collect at another article where he edit-warred to maintain a controversial POV which seemed inadequately sourced. I engaged in dispute resolution at the reliable sources noticeboard which supported my position but User:Collect did not respect any contrary opinion and continued to war. Finding dispute resolution to be unavailing, I walked away from the matter. This matter is interesting in that User:Collect is now taking an opposite line - insisting on the removal of material with a debatable source. My impression is that he is gaming the system in support of his personal POV, per WP:TEND. I may be mistaken, of course, but offer this anecdote so that an overall pattern of behaviour may be established. Colonel Warden (talk) 11:38, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

i agree, User:Collect does seem to make tendentious edits based on his own views. he will argue for inclusion when it supports his right wing philosophy and against inclusion when it does not. it would be better if he were more consistent in his views on inclusion/exclusion/sources/etc. than he seems to be when it comes to politics. Brendan19 (talk) 21:03, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

Odd. See how Ikip views this at . As a "circus." He has since added " It is the greatest show on Earth, until the next greatest show on Earth comes along sometime tomorrow." Note further how Ikip views editors at etc. (note his comments about THF and me being one person, etc. , "The reason this text was added was to stop edit wars with other POV editors in the past, who understood this incident as little as User:Collect does, and contributed just as little as User:Collect has." et seq wherein he solicits another person to file an RfC. Ikip, in fact , solicited others for an RfC as well -- and apparently seems to think that canvassing is proper behavior (per huge numbers of spams for ARS). ] note: "I have already added a: Misplaced Pages:Third_opinion#Active_disagreements. If you do not stop, I will begin searching for editors on Joe the Plumber, and other pages you recklessly edit war on, to co-endorse a RfC against you. I have had it with your tedious edit warring, deleting so much well referenced text. In preperation for the RfC, I will then systamtically

dig through your entire edit history, as I have done with countless other admins before. 03:15, 22 February 2009 (UTC)" Alas, I would not want the list of his diffs which clearly belie any good intent of this complaint to make my response too long or uninteresting.

Ikip also makes misleading edits per where he posts something from his own user talk page as though THF were posting it to Talk:Business Plot. Note Ikip never "fixed" that mistake.

Next examime Ikip.travb/Inclusionist's posts to my user talk page at giving me a barnstar, also , (note effusive praise), odd comment, more praise from Inclusionist (Ikip), and here and

Next observe a third party's comment about "Ikip" at , and about me at

Note an IP posted Not to mention the socks which have appeared on my talk page. has the same amazing language. Oh and then.

Note further the nature of his comments on WP editors at "A prominent editor who deletes a lot of material from Misplaced Pages has your own user page in her sights, guess what her one and only solution is? She will be stopping by to say hello soon, since I accidently posted this on her page first. :( Ikip (talk) 00:46, 1 March 2009 (UTC) you seem to have some pretty prominent editors who delete a lot of material from Misplaced Pages on your talk page, so you must be doing something right. Ikip (talk) 00:50, 1 March 2009 (UTC) Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org/User_talk:Dream_Focus" and the corresponding

Also read User:Ikip/guests which contained explicit detail on how to have an undetectable sockpuppet. (see the Machiavelli section). As for "Colonel Warden" I do not want to spend an hour showing his diffs here. Collect (talk) 14:35, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

I support the complaint against Collect but not the complaint against THF.

Collect has made combative and communication stopping edits to me and about me, e.g."He is a SPA sock of someone - likely Ikip" which have made it very difficult for me to continue working on any article which he edits. Collect has been exceptionally rude and unfriendly in his edits and edit summaries with regard to articles where he and I edit and he has a continual method of stating his opinions about article content as if those opinions are unquestionable fact. But the main thing is his combative attitude (at least toward me and my edits) and his selectively choosing difs and wording of Misplaced Pages rules which are misleading as to the totality of the difs or rules. Just as he does above re: the complaint about Ikip. (please see the first sentence in my comments about Ikip).

THF has been calling me a "meatpuppet", I don't know why, but it certainly is not true. Otherwise, he has, overall, been trying to help me understand the intricacies of OR better and he also praised me for finding a RS for a Pancho Valez reference. I can not possibly keep up with the speed of THF's edits so I feel overwhelmed in trying to respond to and create my own edits when he is editing an article or communicating with me, but that is not his problem. In summary, he has also been a bit tough with me but ,overall, I respect and appreciate his attempts to help me continue. So I do not support the complaint against THF. Abbarocks (talk) 16:13, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

(outdent) As you can see, I've rounded up the pieces of this multi-faceted WQA so that the many common issues can be dealt with collectively. I'm taking "second fiddle" on this one, as I'm already tied up with other issues here and there. In the meantime, let's try to keep this civil, free from personal attacks and insinuations. Comment on contributions, and not the contributor. Edit Centric (talk) 17:37, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

I had thought the "Its with a hevy heart" bit came from Nixon's resignation speeach and both were using it on wiki decades later. Schmidt, 19:58, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

(Outdent) Ikip, one of the things that perturbs me about this, and I realise that this may be because you are new to the process, but the cross-complaint that you filed here starts with text that is not even part of the WQA page; it's being called from your own userspace. What this means is that, when archived (hopefully soon!), if you remove the text from your end, it will not be saved as part of the archived discussion. Could you please rectify this, by linking only the table that you have here, and importing the rest of your text into this WQA page? (This is the one and only time I'll allow a refactor to take place, because of what it accomplishes.) Edit Centric (talk) 04:24, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

NB that it's actually two transclusions because User:Ikip/q itself transcludes Talk:Business Plot/Ikip's chart of Collect's deletions, each of which may well undergo further editing.

NB that Ikip has not noted any Wikiquette violations; his entire complaint (especially Talk:Business Plot/Ikip's chart of Collect's deletions) is entirely content-related regarding a third party. He hasn't even shown a single diff about me, though my name is in the subtitle for some reason. Can someone remove my name from the subtitle? THF (talk) 15:34, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

NB The only reason this section exists seems to be out of upset at having THF issue a WQA complaint. The solicitation of support as noted above (the Ikip section) is an indication of desire for wikidrama. Collect (talk) 16:25, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

User:Colonel Warden

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Colonel Warden's contributions to the discussion at Misplaced Pages:Articles_for_deletion/Gail_Trimble display an increasing level of unnecessary and disruptive antagonism. First s/he asserts that policy "is being misunderstood and misapplied", quite mild in itself but slanted towards the contributor rather than the contribution. Then implies that the AFD and its support is "an attack" on the subject (and in context an accusation of sexism). Then , in reply to me, "If you actually read WP:OSE" is just rude. Finally accuses me of being an SPA (falsely as it happens). I have asked on the user talk page not to be so aggressive . Anna Rundell (talk) 12:34, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

Not to be rude, Ms. Rundell, but you have edited wikipedia for only two days. On your first day of editing, you were already linking to policies and procedures, and using piped links. While I agree that telling someone to "actually read" x is slightly rude, so is dissembling about one's identity. What other accounts have you used to edit? Hipocrite (talk) 12:43, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

I previously used my real name and must respectfully decline to reveal it. Anna Rundell (talk) 12:49, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

And your prior involvement with CW? Hipocrite (talk) 12:50, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

Ah, I see your reason for asking, sorry to be slow on the uptake and am happy to disclose that we had two disagreements in the three years I have been an editor. Funnily enough they were both over incivility in an AFD. Anna Rundell (talk) 13:05, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

Ms. Rundell, what would you like editors too do in this case? I would be interested in hearing Colonel_Warden's opinion on this matter. Ikip (talk) 13:21, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

Quite simply to signify to CW their disapproval of what I regard as an overly aggressive style of argumentation, or, alternatively, to tell me I'm being hypersensitive. Anna Rundell (talk) 13:34, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

• I have removed the word actually which may have been taken as provocative. My purpose is to resolve the substantive issue of the AFD, not to engage in side arguments over the form of words used. I consider the language of User:Anna Rundell and others in the AFD to be mildly uncivil - sarcasm, condescension, etc - but such minor friction should be borne in the spirit of WP:AGF. Colonel Warden (talk) 13:46, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

• I am willing to apologise to anyone who found my comments upsetting (although no-one has said so to me). CW, would you be willing to apologise too? Anna Rundell (talk) 13:58, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

• I am naturally sorry if my words should cause hard feelings as it is not my intention to give offence or seem ill-mannered. The difficulty at AFD is to find the right words with which to vigorously rebut the opposing arguments while remaining polite and sparing the feelings of those who hold those arguments dear. I bear no ill-will to User:Anna Rundell, whatever may have passed between us before, and am willing to start afresh. Colonel Warden (talk) 14:39, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

• Thank you, CW, for that — I gladly accept and in return apologise for any ill-feeling I have caused. Let's start over and regard this as closed. Anna Rundell (talk) 14:46, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

User:Black Kite

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

1 - I awarded two Barnstars to myself. I know that sounds a little conceited but I did it because I know for a fact of the existence of a sock but I haven't nailed down who the puppetmaster is yet and I think I can flush them out -- I'll spare you the details of how. This relates to an ongoing abuse of socks in an article for which several have already been banned but a few remain.

2 - When adding these Barnstars I accidently had a leftover clipboard of their names that pasted into the Barnstars so it appeared they were awarding them. User Black Kite removed these, which I appreciate.

3 - I replaced them, editing out the errant userIDs so it looks as though no one except me gave me the Barnstars. User Black Kite removed these and left an aggressive message.

4 - At this point it may be early to make this complaint but User: Black Kite is an admin and has been engaged in aggressive warnings against me on instigation of several problem editors which I have tried to explain to him on his Talk page and provide him with perspective and background of the situation. He has ignored and not replied to my comments but continues to leave threats and insults on my Talk Page.

I make this wikiquette alert because my final note on his Talk page was to wit: Unless you are able to give me the courtesy of replying to the message I left on your Talk page which provided you more background on the situation in which you've allowed yourself to be manipulated into (clearly without taking the time to investigate the full facts of this situation), I would appreciate you leaving no more messages on my Talk page. The Talk page is a forum for dialog, not a forum for one-way berating which is what you are using it for; a reply from you is neither required nor desired.

Given his provocative, shoot-first method of handling user interaction to this point I feel it is necessary to make this alert at an earlier-than-user stage because his anger management issues may lead to an unjustified block against me by him.

Thanks and apologies for the Drama. Notabilitypatrol (talk) 03:43, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

Okay, now that that is fixed...what is it that you are trying to accomplish by bringing this to WQA? I noted that you have not notified Black Kite that you brought this here, which is customary.

I will not opine as to my own feelings on the self-awarding of Barnstars, save for to say that it is;

• NOT the spirit of what the Barnstar is for, and
• NOT the method to address concerns of WP:SOCK. There is a correct process for this, I highly suggest that you use it. Edit Centric (talk) 04:53, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

(1) I've just informed Black Kite; I had a personal errand to quickly attend to before I could finish inputting my informational; (2) the socking in question is part of a coordinated attack done as part of a marketing campaign for a radio station that a simple checkuser has been able to decipher and requires a special methodological and investigative approach -- that's not germane to the point, though, the ultimate question is - is it a P&P violation to award oneself a Barnstar (regardless of the underlying reason or rationale)? If it is not, what is the justification for editing a Userpage other than ones own and for making threats to ban a user? Ones personal offense to something on a userpage is not an underlying enabler for editing or blocking. Notabilitypatrol (talk) 05:17, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

You're absolutely right in that Black Kite was out of line in editing the said content from your user page. Black Kite, whatever your own personal proclivities are regarding the administering and application of Barnstars, there are better ways to address this, rather than taking the "heavy-hand" approach.

NP, awarding yourself a Barnstar is again, not what Barnstars are meant for, and your doing so for the reasons that you did is, in and of it's self, a Wikiquette violation. I'm quite surprised that Black Kite did not bring this here, had they done so I would be issuing this same counsel.

As for the WP:SOCK issue, it is not under your purview to assume the role of investigator with this, we have people for that. Let them do their job. If you have concerns, bring them to the proper venue for this. In the meantime, I suggest that you remove the barnstars from your userpage. I cannot insist that you do so, it's your userpage. However, if you can indeed understand the point here, you will do the honorable thing and remove them. Edit Centric (talk) 05:27, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

This is reasonable counsel and I will cease any investigative efforts and remove the Barnstars from my page. Thank you. Notabilitypatrol (talk) 05:33, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

No, he's not "absolutely right". The original barnstars were giving the impression that they had been awarded by users whom this persistently disruptive user had been in conflict with. Restoring them without the names was just yet another WP:POINT violation by user who specialises in such things, and to claim that I was "heavy handed" in removing them is inaccurate. A detailed review of the user's previous edits (here is the latest one, not to mention the ones on my talk page which you suggested I ignore) might go some way to explaining why such "heavy handed" actions were correct. This is effectively a SPA account who wants, for some personal reason, to have the article Luke Burbank deleted, removing information from the article and inserting unsourced BLP violations (), and has gone as far as AFDing an article on a "more popular" radio show so that it "prove" Burbank's non-notability. Not to mention persistent spurious allegations, mostly of wikistalking, against editors who are merely trying to point out his failure to adhere to policy. If it had been any random, non-disruptive user you would be completely correct. In this case, you're not. Black Kite 10:18, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

(outdent) First of all Black Kite, why perpetuate the drama here, when this was actually getting somewhere? Second of all, I do not appreciate the tone of your edit descriptor, unarchiving this WQA ("unarchive (what the hell?)") Please unruffle. Progress was being made here, despite NP's follow-on's at your talk page, which I immediately took umbrage with, and let NP know this. These other issues that you mentioned are valid points, but need vetted out in the appropriate venue. Do you see what we're trying to accomplish here?
FOR THE RECORD, I was not referring to your initial removal of the Barnstar content from the page, I was referring to THIS content removal edit that you made to NP's user page. Yes, I found this approach heavy-handed. Yes, I have reservations regarding your usage of your Admin status in doing this, but Yes, I could see your reason(s) for doing it.
That I was "inaccurate" is a subjective opinion, and you are certainly entitled to opine in that fashion. IMHO, it would have again been more apropos to bring it here and have it vetted out to begin with, as this particular thing was more a breach of solid etiquette than anything else that might have contributed to it. It was dealt with, the user removed it, EOS.
Black Kite, Golbez, Arxiloxos AND Notabilitypatrol - continuing the drama is one thing, and perhaps there are other issues that need addressed. But to continue it on my talk page is a no-go, it's not appreciated, is a blatant "toss-aside" of WP:CIVIL, especially in light of what we're trying to get done here in WQA. We're all on the same side here, please see that. All I am trying to accomplish is to be the "buffer" betwixt y'all, and further the processes that we all should be espousing; good edits, sense of community, and cooperation. I would appreciate yours in this instance. Edit Centric (talk) 11:41, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

Alright, now things are clearing up a bit. NP, we were making such good progress here, and then this, this and this from you, after you were shown a great deal of consideration in this WQA. I will now deliver my standard line in these instances; enough with the shenanigans. Noone said anything about being "censured". I never made a "ruling", and I certainly never said "abuse of power". What I said was the approach was "heavy-handed", in my opinion.

Again, FOR THE RECORD, I do not "preside" over any "tribunal" or "judging" process here, that is NOT what WQA is. It is not the Scopes trial, not the Spanish Inquisition, and CERTAINLY not AN/I or ARBCOM. Edit Centric (talk) 12:04, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

I'll say it again, this is a disruptive user (as you are beginning to see) bringing spurious WQA alerts (I see he's brought a similar one against User:Geni. This one was opened at 3.43am my time and closed at 6.35am my time, giving me no time to point out this fact (hence the "what the hell?" comment). I'm going to archive this again now, as I've made my point.

User:Geni

User:Geni, an admin, has threatened to block me over my erroneous use of a plural form instead of a singular form. I find this rude and a violation of AGF.

Background - In a very heated discussion I paranthetically reference a death threat made against me by a position-supporter, to wit: "the same fan club who have left death threats on userpages of those who disagree with them and engaged in mass vandalism of the article, I will add".

I meant left out an "A" and added an "S" --- this was a freely admitted error on my part and was not intentional. I was simply trying to type without self-reference because I didn't want to make the discussion about me.

Geni - Geni stated "Please do not accuse other users of making death threats (such as here) without presenting evidence. If you continue to disrupt wikipedia in this manner or through misrepresenting other people such as falsely claiming they have awarded you barnstars I will block you."

I replied to Geni and said the death threat against me was well documented in the logs and had resulted in a warning against the editor in question. I said I thought she was making a blocking threat without full investigation of the facts.

Instead of apologizing for her oversight and jumping to conclusions, she replied and said: "the same fan club who have left death threats on userpages of those who disagree with them and engaged in mass vandalism of the article, I will add" fan club means you are blameing a group rather than a single editor. Still as long as it doesn't happen again I think we can let the matter rest

To which I replied: Are you kidding me? That's your beef? GOOD GRIEF! You thought it would be a collaborative, proactive, polite thing to do to threaten to block me because I erroneously used a plural instead of a singular when referencing a documented and factual statement?

It's my fault - I have no problem admitting it. I did use a plural when I should have used a singular. I made a mistake. If you want to block me over a typo then go right ahead. Unbelievable.

Misplaced Pages can not exist as a collaborative environment when admins make drive-by banning threats willy nilly without fully investigating situations, then try to cover up their dereliction by claiming their block threat was for the user erroneously using a plural form word instead of a singular form word. This is trite, petty, incompetent and typifies the characteristics of bullying.

Geni is a WIKIPEDIA ADMIN, not the WIKIPEDIA KING. She should act in a tempered, reasonable way - seeking to discover facts and make reasoned judgments after hearing all sides of an issue - not wildly swing around an axe.

I am absolutely appalled and aghast at this abuse of power.

Notabilitypatrol (talk) 04:37, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

You have not notified this user either. Please correct the deficiencies with these two WQAs at this time, before we can continue. You may borrow my standard form of notice, found in some of my previous edits. Edit Centric (talk) 05:00, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

My standard WQA notice can now be found here. Edit Centric (talk) 05:08, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

(1) I've just informed Geni; I had a personal errand to quickly attend to before I could finish inputting my informational; Notabilitypatrol (talk) 05:18, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

I've just re-read the original threat made against me and this has caused me anguish in light of User:Geni's flippant attitude regarding it and attempts to make me at fault. It's like telling a rape victim it's her fault for dressing provocatively. At this time all I would like is an apology from User:Geni and a guarantee that I will not be blocked in retribution for filing this alert.Notabilitypatrol (talk) 05:30, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

While the admin action may not have been the best, statments from yourself such as the ones you quoted here aren't generally in line with WP:CIVIL. A polite request to the admin, rather than yelling at him, is more likely to work out in your favor. Also, comparing his actions to that of harrassing rape victims is an insult to rape victims everywhere. Rape is much more serious than Misplaced Pages. Themfromspace (talk) 05:36, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

And death is more serious than either wikipedia or rape. The question at hand is that I received a death threat left on my userpage (substantiated / editor warned) and was threatened with blocking for having the gall of bringing it up. Notabilitypatrol (talk) 05:38, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

(outdent) Agreed. The rape reference is highly inflamatory, also when you notify or post to a user, NP, you do this on their talk page, NOT their user page. What you've been doing over at Geni's page could be construed as vandalizing their user page, and is not kosher by any measure of the word. (Want to take a moment to fix these issues?) At this point, you're rapidly compounding your own problems. If it was me, I would STOP, take a moment and think, then go back and do whatever strike-throughs, moving of content and mea culpas that are needed to fix your end of the snafu. Trust me, from a 3-O pov, you are very culpable in this ongoing situation. Edit Centric (talk) 05:46, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

I apologize - I posted to her User page in error and meant to post to her Talk page. I have corrected this problem. Also, a clarification - Gina has NOT threatened to rape me and I am not accusing her of that. I was simply analogizing her behavior in this very serious matter of further victimizing me for being the object of a death threat, something that was terrifying and humiliating and beyond my control. Notabilitypatrol (talk) 05:51, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

That's definitely a beginning. To be perfectly honest, I found your analogue highly distressing, as I also am involved IRL in counseling with this topic. Regarding the alleged threat to your safety, it's all in the way that you address it. First, you have to put things here in their proper perspective; does this person likely know just who you are IRL and where you live? What's the likelihood of that? Then, approaching it from that mindset, you go to WP:ANI and address it concisely and politely, citing the appropriate diffs and edits that contain the threat, veiled or overt. An admin will address it accordingly. Edit Centric (talk) 05:58, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

Thank you. It was addressed and to my satisfaction. My only issue with Gina is being threatened with blocking for acknowledging it happened; though, frankly, I suspect she did not have the full details. When I appraised her of the full details she changed and said her threat to block me was over the misuse of a plural instead of a singular, which is AGF typo by any objective definition. Had she simply apologized for presumptive block threatening and acknowledged she had not investigated before swinging the axe none of this would ever have happened. Notabilitypatrol (talk) 06:07, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

Granted and ack'ed. Geni - maybe a less agressive tack was called for here, and that is my recommendation for the future. NP - you've shown me here this evening that you're a very reasonable person, in that you've taken my suggestions and run with them. I'll tell you the same thing I tell my kids IRL; "I'm not about to tell you to do anything that's going to hurt you or get you in trouble". The same goes for WQA and Misplaced Pages. I would be remiss in my duties here if I did so.

I'm feeling that we're close to resolution here, which is a very beautiful thing! Edit Centric (talk) 06:16, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for your assistance. Notabilitypatrol (talk) 06:18, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

You are more than welcome, NP. It's my way of giving back to WP for the vast amount of info that they have provided me over the years. (My drill sergeants used to say "Don't thank me, thank your recruiter." Don't thank me, thank Jimbo Wales. :-) Edit Centric (talk) 06:33, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

User:TungstenCarbide

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

User TungstenCarbide has engaged in several personal attacks since he/she arrived (such as this and this), and has now vandalized two user pages here and here. The last edit, along with being vandalism, is also another inappropriate (albeit cleverly formatted) personal attack. This user has made constructive edits, and can, I believe, make good contributions in the future, but this type of behavior has to stop now. I imagine that warnings posted by me would not have any positive effect, so I hope that an admin can talk to him/her and help prevent similar actions in the future. Otebig (talk) 15:06, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

He needs to read over WP:CIVIL a few times. Even his User Page contains offensive language that contributes to a hostile atmosphere. Themfromspace (talk) 15:26, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

I agree with Themfromspace. I suggest kindly asking him to read it by leaving him a message on his talk page. Has anyone even informed him of his abuse? Papercutbiology♫ (talk) 15:33, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

You all should pull your heads out of your asses and acknowledge that we are here to write an encyclopedia, not be polite to each other. If someone does something stupid, they should be told that they did something stupid. Please go read my user page, and then go fuck yourselves, morons. TungstenCarbide (talk) 16:04, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

TungstenCarbide, understand that you can (and will) get blocked from editing if you continue to disrespect other editors in this manner. Themfromspace (talk) 16:06, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

TungstenCarbide is right about the issue. The first sentence of the -stan article is a horrible, horrible mess. Unbelievable that there are editors who fail to grasp this, and that they reverted TC's good-faith, useful attempts at improvement. TC's user page, while it uses strong language, should be kept. TC should not call other editors morons or exhort them to do impossible things to their anatomy.--Goodmorningworld (talk) 16:30, 2 March 2009 (UTC) Also, since no one can keep all the different Afghan, Tajik etc. -stans straight, how about we rename them all collectively to a name we all know and love: Stan Getz. <--- apologies to Jay Leno, who was first with Jenniferanistan!

The dispute appears to be over a simple WP:MOS issue. Putting pronunciations and foreign-alphabet spellings in a parenthesis in the first sentence is the standard, so TC isn't even right about the issue, never mind that being right is no excuse for the WP:CIVIL violation we've seen here. That 16:04 comment (on WQA no less!) merits an immediate block if WP:CIVIL is to mean anything. THF (talk) 16:43, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

Let's see what the relevant paragraph in WP:Lead section actually says:

Usage in first sentence

In articles about places, people, literary and artistic works, scientific principles and concepts, and other subjects, the title can be followed in the first line by one or two alternative names in parentheses. The following are examples of names that may be included parenthetically, but this is not mandatory, and inclusion should reflect consensus.

I repeat:

1. can be followed
2. "one or two alternative names in parentheses"
3. "not mandatory"

And here is the first sentence as of today:

Kyrgyzstan (Template:PronEng; KƏR-gis-tahn; Kyrgyz: Кыргызстан ; Template:Lang-ru or Киргизстан or Кыргызстан , variously transliterated, also Kirgizia or Kirghizia), officially the Kyrgyz Republic, is a country in Central Asia.

I challenge anyone to read that aloud with a straight face and not get his tongue tied up in a knot necessitating medical intervention.

I repeat again: "one or two alternative names in parentheses", and "not mandatory".--Goodmorningworld (talk) 17:06, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

Just for the record, I agree with TC's assertions about the sentence in question. His behavior, however, has nothing to do with that and is completely inappropriate. The Seeker 4 Talk 17:14, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

As this user has responded entirely inappropriately to non-admin users advising him about his behavior, I have brought this issue to ANI here. I suggest closing this thread as informal third-party opinion obviously does not get through to this user. The Seeker 4 Talk 16:57, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

94.192.38.247

• 94.192.38.247 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

This static IP editor is extraordinarily uncivil , engages in personal attacks, and doesn't seem to care. THF (talk) 17:27, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

Yes he is impolite, and a relatively new user with (apparently) strong opinions. Collect (talk) 17:38, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

1. Schlesinger, p. 85

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