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Revision as of 16:36, 6 March 2009 editRaeky (talk | contribs)Pending changes reviewers, Rollbackers9,784 edits →Nadya Suleman← Previous edit Revision as of 17:46, 6 March 2009 edit undoTocino (talk | contribs)Extended confirmed users, Pending changes reviewers9,709 edits added my thoughtsNext edit →
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*<small>'''Note''': This debate has been included in the ]. -- ] (]) 00:01, 5 March 2009 (UTC)</small> *<small>'''Note''': This debate has been included in the ]. -- ] (]) 00:01, 5 March 2009 (UTC)</small>

*'''Delete both articles'''. WP should not have trivial articles about people's private lives. --] 17:45, 6 March 2009 (UTC)

Revision as of 17:46, 6 March 2009

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Nadya Suleman

AfDs for this article:
Nadya Suleman (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View log)

Subject of the article is notable for just one thing: having given birth to octuplets after fertility treatment. Hence the page should be a redirect to the notable event. However, a previous AfD debate on this "biography" was closed after just twelve hours by an involved editor. The page is in itself a massive BLP violation, as aspects of this woman's life apart from her unusual approach to motherhood are irrelevant to an encyclopedia. We have got the point of publishing every single name that she has been known under, and linking to an online version of her divorce papers: this is not encyclopedic material, it is gutter journalism. Just because something can be verified does not mean it should be in an encyclopedia: otherwise we might as well just read the National Inquirer. This article should be deleted, nay oversighted, then a protected redirect created to Suleman octuplets, the only thing which even vaguely approaches encyclopedic notability. Physchim62 (talk) 17:49, 4 March 2009 (UTC)

  • Strong Keep I think to state that she's notable for just the octuplets isn't reflected in the shear number of news articles written about her. Laws are being enacted to prevent this kind of thing from happening again. The doctor that did this is under investigation. Legal battles will most likely arise about custody (hospital is already refusing to release to her). Do to the intense media attention and public interest, if this doesn't justify the one event rule it should qualify under the ignore all rules rule. — raeky  18:00, 4 March 2009 (UTC)
  • Comment On the accusations, the linking to the divorce paper is only a court summons that shows no additional information other then the date it was filed and her name(s). Under the rules for primary sources it is allowed. Due to the MANY names shes been known under and published as in the news outlets, it's necessary to list at least the most common referenced ones in the media. BLP violations are unlikely do to the immense amount of reputable sources for the information. According to WP:LIBEL if the information is from "reliable published sources," then it's valid for inclusion. With the shear number of sources we've included we strive to have EVERY statement backed up with at least one reliable source if not many. Sure some of the sources might be from 'tabloid' papers, but if they are we try to find at least one or more from a reliable news outlet. Problems with sources can easily be fixed (theres been over 17,000 news articles indexed by google news in the past month alone referencing her name) from the shear number of sources out there. — raeky  18:05, 4 March 2009 (UTC)
  • Note to Admin If the decision is to delete or merge, please give the editors plenty of time to readd the information back to the octuplets page. Thanks! — raeky  18:27, 4 March 2009 (UTC)
  • Note I'd also like to point out this AfD came after the editors decided decided to get additional input on the validity of listing multiple names shes gone under and which if any should be kept. They decided to post on the BLP notice page for visibility. There it was suggested due to the short time frame the previous AfD ran before it being closed (even though it met the criteria for speedy keep) they felt it should be renominated for more input and thus it was renominated here. The reasoning behind the renomination may qualify for a speedy keep under criteria 1, "for the sake of process." — raeky  18:35, 4 March 2009 (UTC)
  • Speedy Keep, Flawed logic nomination There was an obvious WP:SNOW situation at the first AfD, the nominator withdrew the nomination, and yes, I closed it because the clearly stated conditions at WP:SPEEDYKEEP had been met. The nominator was the only one advocating deletion, and he withdrew, it was over. Re-nominating after so short a time is almost always a bad idea. If there have been bad edits to the article since then, add appropriate tags, or dare I suggest, fix the problems. Maybe some discussion on the talk page, where this issues are being discussed right now, before a speedy re-nomination. Calling for oversight on this is over-the-top ridiculous. Beeblebrox (talk) 18:13, 4 March 2009 (UTC)
  • The first AfD debate was closed after only twelve hours, when we're talking about very serious policy points here. I don't hold any grudges that it was closed after the nominator withdrew the nomination but, just three days later, the same editors who were supporting the proposal are now having to discuss the obvious BLP implications, including asking for outside help (a very respectable move of the editors concerned). The editors might not like the answer I propose, but it seems obvious to me that this woman should not have her life dissected on a top-ten website any more than is strictly necessary. Physchim62 (talk) 19:07, 4 March 2009 (UTC)
  • That is an excellent rationale for watchlisting the article, posting it at the BLP noticeboard, and so forth, but not for deleting it. AfD is not for cleanup, it is for articles that fail to meet the most basic criteria for an encyclopedic article. This has sources up the ying yang, and, as you pointed out, has some very thoughtful editors doing their best to keep it neutral. Beeblebrox (talk) 19:14, 4 March 2009 (UTC)
  • If anything the octuplets should be redirected to the mother. Multiple births are not all that notable anymore due to the increasing use of fertility treatments, but a mother on welfare who already has a bunch of kids, three of which have been getting disability payments their entire life, plus the lack of a father and the ethics investigation into the doctor who made this whole mess possible add up to notability for the mother more than the kids, about whom there is little to say since they are newborn infants. Beeblebrox (talk) 18:33, 4 March 2009 (UTC)
  • The page is an obvious magnet for BLP violations: it should be salted until this woman has done anything more significant than have fourteen kids, which is not something so unusual in itself and in historical terms. Physchim62 (talk) 18:39, 4 March 2009 (UTC)
  • There are hundreds of pages that are magnets for BLP violations, should we lock them all? Active editors can reverse blatant violations quickly. We strive to get reliable sources for every statement to avoid BLP violations and libel. — raeky  18:43, 4 March 2009 (UTC)
  • Boy Psychim, you really hate this article don't you? Calling for oversight, and now permanent create protection for an article that has been edited in good faith by dozens of people and handily survived an AfD just a few days ago? It's not just that she has so many kids, it's the circumstances in which she had them, and the almost universally negative public reaction. That is unusual and notable and may represent the beginning of a change in the way Americans view fertility treatments and multiple births. Beeblebrox (talk) 18:46, 4 March 2009 (UTC)
  • Yes, I do hate this type of article (I've nothing special against this one in particular, but it came up on my radar so there you go). Why on earth should we have articles which we know are going to cause us problems when the guidelines (and common sense) says there's a better way round the problem? Why should other editors have to look out for BLP violations on two pages when they could simply be doing it on one? Why should Misplaced Pages be the hostage to a handful of media junkies who feel that it's their right to publish every personal detail they can find about some single mother in California? Eliminating the gutter journalism and media vultures from Misplaced Pages would go a long way to making flagged revisions unnecessary. This is a project to write an encyclopedia, not a yellow press newspaper. Physchim62 (talk) 19:15, 4 March 2009 (UTC)
  • The Octuplet's page is going to draw just as much BLP violation problem edits as her page would. I still feel that she meets the criteria for her own page. If the main argument is just that this is going to receive a lot of BLP violations then I find that a weak argument. Active editors can quickly revert edits that are not backed up with reliable sources. — raeky  —Preceding undated comment added 19:38, 4 March 2009 (UTC).
  • Redirect - I disagree with some of the arguments here. The event is the birth of the octuplets, which already has an article. Not the woman. This is going to be another one of those problematic BLPs that every Joe Bob edits immediately after some tidbit of negative information is aired on Geraldo or Nancy Grace. Keeping the bio details in the article about the birth will make it easier to manage the inevitable issues. In fact, as this is bound to be ephemeral anyway, I'd argue that the bio be separated later if applicable, not now. I cringe at any BLP that exists only because of "juicy" negative information and recentism. §FreeRangeFrog 19:32, 4 March 2009 (UTC)
  • Comment The nomitator in his inital post is advocating a redirect. This alone should qualify it for speedy keep under reason 1, the nominator either withdraws the nomination, or wishes the page to be moved, merged, or have something else done to it other than deletion. Although I'm not going to push this because I think it should come to a natural keep conclusion. But according to policy it should be speedily kept. — raeky  19:42, 4 March 2009 (UTC)
I'm assuming that a redirect would result in most of the current "content" of the article being deleted. As such AfD is an appropriate forum to discuss the matter. Physchim62 (talk) 20:09, 4 March 2009 (UTC)
AfD is supposed to be used for the outright deletion of an article. Merge requests and the debate surrounding that I believe is usually handled on the respective article's talk pages. If it was redirected we'd have to greatly expand the octuplets article to include info about Ms. Suleman, since all the surrounding issues, legal issues, ethical issues, and all that would have to be addressed to be fair to the subject. — raeky  20:30, 4 March 2009 (UTC)
Comment: "Redirect" is a common opinion voiced on AfD, and it is perfectly fine to suggest it in a nomination as an alternative or addition to deletion, so long as deletion is on the table. And in this case, it is: The nominator says, "This article should be deleted, nay oversighted." That might be going a bit far IMO, but it's not the sort of "advocating a redirect" that one might find on an article's talk page (due to the fact that a mere redirect would preserve all diffs and revisions and wouldn't, therefore, amount to any true "deletion"). Cosmic Latte (talk) 18:48, 5 March 2009 (UTC)
  • Strong Keep and No Redirect - The basis for the nomination is incorrect -- Ms. Suleman has become internationally notable for much more than the "event" of the birth of octuplets. There are many issues surrounding this case for which she is notable -- she has 14 kids conveived through IVF (including 6 previous children), use of public assistance while undergoing expensive IVF treatment, medical ethics of the physician involved, the questions about her preparedness to care for 14 young children, exceptionally lengthy time on workers' comp, refusal of free housing and nursing care, burden on her aging parents, possible foreclosure of the home she lives in, her own contradictory statements, etc. that are covered by numerous qualifying reliable sources. The case has created an incredible amount of public debate and spawned legislative proposals in multiple states. WP is in a unique position to have an article that is properly sourced and updated rather than the trash and rumors published by the tabloids. By refusing an article about this extremely controversial person, WP would lessen its relevance.
There are thousands of biographical articles which do not begin to meet notability requirements, yet here there is no question of notability and IMO, no question that she is notable for more than one "event." Even this guideline is not set in stone. See John Smeaton (baggage handler), an extensive article on someone definitely known for only one "event." Under the premise being used for deleting this article, the Smeaton article should also be deleted. Biographical articles should be based upon notability and should not not be deleted due to a desire to limit public attention to the subject. Toounstable (talk) 20:07, 4 March 2009 (UTC)
Indeed that article should have been merged, as there was consensus to do. Physchim62 (talk) 20:15, 4 March 2009 (UTC)
Toounstable, FYI other crap exists is a null argument. We know there are other articles out there worse than this. Mr Stephen (talk) 20:50, 4 March 2009 (UTC)
While WP:OTHERCRAPEXISTS is a weak argument (not a null one), so is asserting quoting it as some prime directive against someone - it's an WP:ESSAY after all, not holy writ. Carlossuarez46 (talk) 21:38, 4 March 2009 (UTC)
Comment to the Admin who makes the decision, please consider all of the comments on the previous AFD discussion page in your decision. Toounstable (talk) 20:11, 4 March 2009 (UTC)
  • Two articles? There is one about her and one about the octuplets. We're attempting to keep the vast majority of the info about her on her page and only relevant info about the octuplets on that page. I hardly see it as two pages about Ms. Suleman. — raeky  20:27, 4 March 2009 (UTC)
We've been here before, but usually with regard to foul deeds (eg one article for a murderer, one article for the murdered, one for the murder, one for the trial ...). Current practice is for a single article (AIUI). Mr Stephen (talk) 20:50, 4 March 2009 (UTC)
I don't see how your examples apply in this case. The birth of the octuplets and their medical issues is one event. The controversy, legal and other matters that focus on the mother and her actions I contend is a separate event that isn't entirely relevant to the first one. — raeky  21:08, 4 March 2009 (UTC)
This is hardly the place to add additional BLP violations! — raeky  20:36, 4 March 2009 (UTC)
Could you maybe give a reason based at least remotely on Misplaced Pages policy, "not worthy" doesn't really cut it. Beeblebrox (talk) 21:13, 4 March 2009 (UTC)
  • Strong Keep - This may be the most talked about woman of 2009. A quick google news search shows over 15,900 news articles about her . She is clearly notable, and the WP:IDon'tLikeIt agumenent is not relevant to the issue of notability. Esasus (talk) 21:30, 4 March 2009 (UTC)
    • The "most talked about woman of 2009"?!?!?! More important than, say, Hillary Clinton or Michelle Obama? What happens if Elizabeth II of England suddenly pops her clogs? In this part of the world, Penélope Cruz beats this poor Californian single mother on Google hits by a factor of one thousand. I could almost invoke WP:SOAPBOX as an additional reason to delete this page: we should not be soapboxing the fetishes of a minute group of editors, and doubly especially not when the involve real life living people. Physchim62 (talk) 21:41, 4 March 2009 (UTC)
      • Of '09? The political whirlwind of the elections is dieing down quite a bit, thank God. Clinton will get a fair amount of press now with her position, but Michelle won't in '09. And depending how far this goes with the legal battles, laws, and other issues Ms. Suleman likely could be right up there in the top. As of now past month you'd be hard pressed to find another female getting as much media attention from the major media outlets. — raeky  23:08, 4 March 2009 (UTC)
  • Keep obviously meets WP:N - a hell of a lot more notable than various game show contestants, professors and two-bit institutions and self-published authors that WP gladly confers the almighty notability upon. This might have been a redirect under WP:BLP1E, were she basically otherwise anonymous and kept herself to herself. But she has hired PR agents, actively sought and given interviews to the press - so whatever embarassment or privacy considerations that generated WP:BLP1E don't apply here: she's neither embarassed nor has she any concern apparently to maintain any privacy. If you want to live in the public eye and meet WP:N and WP:BIO, go for it. Carlossuarez46 (talk) 21:35, 4 March 2009 (UTC)
    • As mentioned above, "there's other crap out there" is hardly a convincing argument to keep this little bit of gutter tripe. Physchim62 (talk) 21:43, 4 March 2009 (UTC)
      • Neither is WP:IDONTLIKEIT which a lot of the merge/delete arguments are likely based on, not giving her more notability because they don't like her or what she did. Personally I can say I don't like what she did, but I don't think my opinion on that justifies ignoring or downplaying the article about her. — raeky  23:05, 4 March 2009 (UTC)
        • I didn't nominate Suleman octuplets for deletion, as it might just be a marginally notable article in the field of obstetrics, although I note that WP:MED hasn't even bothered to tag the article yet. What I object to is the idea that, just because this woman had a fairly fundamental role to play in giving birth the eight live babies, we should dissect her entire life. That's not only ridiculous, it's offensive as well. Misplaced Pages is not an indiscriminate collection of information, just because we can find some information by a quick Google search doesn't mean that that justifies us creating an article about it, especially when it comes to BLP. Physchim62 (talk) 23:44, 4 March 2009 (UTC)
          • According to WP:NOT it states: Unless news coverage of an individual goes beyond the context of a single event, our coverage of that individual should be limited to the article about that event, in proportion to their importance to the overall topic. (See Misplaced Pages:Biographies of living persons for more details.) It says "in proportion" if you examine the THOUSANDS of news articles about her and the octuplets MUCH of those have nothing to do with the octuplets, and many don't even mention them. Her in of herself is a news article, apart from the octuplets. Thus my contention that this goes well beyond the "one event" criteria. The reason for an article to "dissect her entire life," as you put it, is because she herself has put out this information to the public. Theres a clear attention seeking pattern in her interviews and statements. This can't be compared to for example another multiple birth that we have articles for. Ms. Suleman appears to have used the births as a way to get media attention, money and possibly a career. — raeky  00:10, 5 March 2009 (UTC)
  • So much of Physchim's argument to delete is based on repeating the whole BLP thing. That's not a reason for deletion. Report it at WP:BLPN or request it be protected at WP:RPP or initiate a discussion to place it on the probation list if you really think it's that big of a problem, but deletion is not a remedy for BLP problems. Beeblebrox (talk) 01:06, 5 March 2009 (UTC)
  • This article will continue to be a problem for as long as it exists, or until the subject discovers a cure for cancer or assassinates a U.S. President or does something in between that would make her much more notable than the simple fact of being the mother of octuplets. A simple (imperfect) solution exists, but it requires deleting the page and forcing the current editors (should they wish to continue with the task) to write only about those points which stand a bat-in-hell's chance of being encyclopedic and on a page which only deals with the (barely) notable topic. Physchim62 (talk) 02:08, 5 March 2009 (UTC)
  • Again just because it might draw vandals and BLP problems is NOT a reason for it to be deleted. Again your advocating it to merge which automatically qualifies this for speedy keep. So far your arguments is that it is a BLP magnet (which is easily mitigated by active editors), shes not notable beyond the octuplets (even though she herself attracts more media attention then the kids, due weight), and that you don't like it (definitely not a valid reason for AfD). I think theres enough evidence to point out that she is more notable for herself then the octuplets, if anything the octuplets page should redirect to her page if you go by due weight rules. — raeky  02:26, 5 March 2009 (UTC)
  • Any article of this type is a BLP magnet, that's why the Community instituted WP:BLP1E. I don't think there are active editors on this article who do not want to place non-encyclopedic content on the page. There is a simple solution: delete the page and force those editors to work within a different framework. If you want to write you comments about the subject outside of the framework of an encyclopedia, there are several free web-hosting services available to you. But beware, you might not find them as polite as Misplaced Pages is. Physchim62 (talk) 02:43, 5 March 2009 (UTC)
  • How exactly do you think the content on this page is non-encyclopedic as a whole? I'm sure there is work that is necessary and we're actively working on it, but to say the entire article as a whole is encyclopedic I don't see that. It's valid to include negative information and criticisms in a BLP if there is valid creditable sources for them, and there is. Unfortunately there just isn't very much (or any?) positive information about this case. Because of that you can't say it's unencyclopedic. What rule under WP:NOT do you propose the majority of the edits on this page violate? — raeky  02:52, 5 March 2009 (UTC)
  • Delete and Redirect The person in question is notable for only one event and we should not extensively document this person who outside this event would fail WP:BLP. —Mr. E. Sánchez (that's me!) / What I Say 00:33, 5 March 2009 (UTC)
    • Explain how shes just notable for one event? She had 8 kids, event one. Laws are being discussed in several states to prevent this from happening, event two. On the cusp of a custody battle, event three. Sperm donor wanting paternity test and a part in their lives, event four. The financial situation of her and her family, event five. The death threats, event six. Theres probably more... — raeky  00:40, 5 March 2009 (UTC)
      • All of those could be discussed in a single article without having a separate biography. They are obviously all related. The very fact that you try to call them "separate events" speaks much for your NPOV. You seem to want to have a biography article just so that you can analyse this woman's life: I think that's disgusting. Period. Physchim62 (talk) 01:57, 5 March 2009 (UTC)
        • If they all was addressed in the octuplets page then the page would be, by far, primarily about her and not the octuplets, due weight rules would prevent that. — raeky  02:26, 5 March 2009 (UTC)
      • Are those straws the kind with bendy necks? How are death threats a separate "event"? How is the financial situation a separate "event"? things you list are all aspects of one event. They are all a result of, or a concern because of, the birth of the octuplets. And they are not so specific to Ms. Suleman herself that they would be inappropriate in the article on the octuplets. The laws being enacted are directly related to the inappropriate IVF procedure; the sperm donor and custody battle (? where is this information?) are relevant for the octuplet's article, as is the financial situation. The death threats would not pull undue weight as everything else is directly relevant to the children. Adam Zel (talk) 13:06, 5 March 2009 (UTC)
  • Keep- Let me be blunt. The woman's become an attention whore. And because of it, she's become notable on her own, separate from her kids. She meets notability requirements by a long shot. As long as the article stays neutral in tone, there's no BLP1E issue. And NOTNEWS doesn't apply. If it had JUST been the birth we were talking about, then it would. But the constant attention seeking she's done since then has made her notable. Is the notability stupid? Yes. But so is Paris Hilton's, and nobody's arguing whether or not she's notable.Umbralcorax (talk) 04:04, 5 March 2009 (UTC)
  • Keep she's all over the news for an extended period of time not not news territory, she is notable and that doesn't go away, she alone is talked about now separate from the 8packTroyster87 (talk) 04:27, 5 March 2009 (UTC)
  • Keep She is notable, permanently, because the matter has already become a major focus of discussion on a public issue. She is in a sense more appropriate for an article than the children. They are notable as octuplets, which is rare enough to be notable. She is notable because of the circumstances of their fertilization, which her her doing and not theirs'. She has the responsibility; they are the victims. It's her deed which will prove historic, in defining public attitudes. DGG (talk) 04:48, 5 March 2009 (UTC)
I want to add t hat the arguments for deleting an article as a magnet for problematic edits is totally wrong--we have sufficient means of keeping an article objective--this is an argument that if followed, would delete the articles on most famous performers and politicians. They're problems, but we know how to deal with them. The BLP problems we do not know how to deal with as well are the more obscure articles. DGG (talk) 04:58, 5 March 2009 (UTC)
  • Merge to octuplets article. Sure, she is notable, but to me it still looks like all that notability comes from one event - yes, there are more details to the situation, but I'd still consider all that part of the same event. This info for the most part should be in wikipedia, just under the event, not the person. If it wasn't for the event of this woman having octuplets, would she even be mentioned here? No. --Minderbinder (talk) 16:47, 5 March 2009 (UTC)
  • Merge to the octuplets article. Her notability derives from her octuplets, and the octuplets article should have a family section, so she fits in right there. 76.66.193.90 (talk) 04:54, 5 March 2009 (UTC)
  • Merge to octuplets' article. Some of the keep arguments are just boldly inaccurate. Claiming that many delete votes are "likely" IDONTLIKEIT votes is not correct. It appears that it would be more fair to say many of the keep votes are ILIKEIT, or maybe IDONTLIKEHER votes. Regardless of how many news organizations have repeated the same stories, it's still one event. The claim that each aspect of this one event (ie. birth, sperm donor participation, financial issues, death threats, etc) are separate events is grasping at straws. Some of the votes in this AFD make the objectives of some editors very clear. However, what you think of her is irrelevant; the matter of her article being kept or deleted should be based in policy. BLP is a policy. Notability is a guideline. BLP1E reads: Marginal biographies on people with no independent notability can give undue weight to the events in the context of the individual, create redundancy and additional maintenance overhead, and cause problems for our neutral point of view policy. In such cases, a merge of the information and a redirect of the person's name to the event article are usually the better options. Cover the event, not the person. That seems to directly contradict several of the keep votes, including DGG's contention above regarding delete votes that mention maintenance issues. Ms. Suleman is not notable independent of this event. Her biography is dominated by the aftereffects and circumstances surrounding the birth of the octuplets. Therefore, the information should be merged into the relevant article. Adam Zel (talk) 13:26, 5 March 2009 (UTC)
The logic here is circular. As Adam Zel points out, BLP1E states:
Marginal biographies on people with no independent notability can give undue weight to the events in the context of the individual, create redundancy and additional maintenance overhead, and cause problems for our neutral point of view policy. In such cases, a merge of the information and a redirect of the person's name to the event article are usually the better options. Cover the event, not the person.
Adam Zel may disagree, but the thrust of the keep comments is that "independent notability" has been established. So the rest of the analysis is moot. Bongomatic 14:30, 5 March 2009 (UTC)
For what, independent of the octuplets, is she notable? Adam Zel (talk) 15:57, 5 March 2009 (UTC)
My view (and that of many other commentators here) is that although she only gained the limelight because of the octuplets, subsequent coverage of her relates to (a) previous IVF births; (b) legal remedies being sought against this type of behavior in various legislatures, family issues that relate both to and not to the octuplets (such as her 911 call before the octuplets were born where she reported that she had lost a child); and (c) lots of trivial matters that are not directly related to the octuplets (foreclosures, family problems, relationship issues, disability payments). WP:N doesn't say that coverage establishing notability of a topic has to be interesting and deep, but only that it has to be significant, and published in reliable sources independent of the subject. That burden has been met. Review the citations—many mention the octuplets only in passing as a way of identifying the subject, rather than providing a focus for the article. Bongomatic 16:12, 5 March 2009 (UTC)
Then I'll have to disagree. I don't believe these are independent of the octuplet birth, rather because of it. Adam Zel (talk) 16:15, 5 March 2009 (UTC)
Yep . . . that's the crux of this whole discussion if you filter out the yelling. Reasonable people seem to disagree in good faith on this point. Bongomatic 16:29, 5 March 2009 (UTC)
Almost the crux, yes, I'll agree with you there. Another important point (for me) is that the decision to split the articles causes BLP problems in itself, which could be avoided by keeping all the aspects in a single article on a single subject. If there is a "biography", it is in the nature of Misplaced Pages that editor will try to add verifiable factoids to it, because they are writing about the subject of the biography article. However, a subject is not encyclopedicly notable just because they have a Misplaced Pages article about them. Nor are they notable just because other people talk about them. Misplaced Pages is not here to record everything that is verifiable, otherwise I would upload the minutes of the local town council meeting into the page of my home town, or the bus timetable, or whatever. The bus timetable is a major topic of conversation around here, but I doubt it interests anyone else. On the other hand, uploading the local bus timetable wouldn't hurt anyone at all: digging into the grimy details of people's personal lives simply because they have been on the news, and then publishing it on a major website so as to ensure that the info gets good Google hits, that can hurt real flesh-and-blood living people.
I don't know if the subject of this article is hurt by the coverage or not. Neither do I know if any editors, so vociferously calling for the article to be kept, have financial interests in the continuation of the publicity circus. What I do know is that this type of article causes the encyclopedia far more problems than it's worth, and that a simple alternative exists in this particular case – protected redirection to Suleman octuplets with the elimination of any material which could not fit into that article. Physchim62 (talk) 17:54, 5 March 2009 (UTC)
So your position is, regardless of notability, that it shouldn't exist because of the possibility of future BLP violation edits and because you don't think something should be on wikipedia that shows someone in an unfavorable light? The content of the article is based on what verifiable sources report on her, it's not our fault if there is far more negative then good, and it's not our intention to slant it either way. I'm willing to wager theres plenty of other articles on WP that isn't a glowing review of them, thats marginally notable and a "BLP magnet," should all those be deleted as well? The direction of the article as it evolves is guided by the sources that are available not the editors (at least that's this editors intentions). I don't see how it hurts WP if this article remains, provided there is proper consensus she's notable. The 'crux' of your arguments generally fall under crystal ball reasoning, which isn't valid for a AfD deletion. — raeky  18:26, 5 March 2009 (UTC)
  • Redirect per the very solid nomination. While the event is arguably notable, the fact that a woman named Nadya Suleman happens to be involved in that event is completely trivial. Raeky, arguing for "strong keep," states the following: "I think to state that she's notable for just the octuplets isn't reflected in the shear number of news articles written about her. Laws are being enacted to prevent this kind of thing from happening again. The doctor that did this is under investigation. Legal battles will most likely arise about custody (hospital is already refusing to release to her)." The problem with this reasoning is that the legal and ethical discussions could have been prompted by this type of event, regardless of who was involved in the event. There does not appear to be anything physically or psychologically interesting about Suleman that would render her uniquely predisposed to have octuplets, and it does not appear that she has contributed in important ways to the surrounding debate. Her involvement in the entire spectacle seems to be entirely coincidental. As an analogy, let's suppose that a tiger escapes from the zoo and eats a guy. And let's suppose that, later on, we discover that the tiger's name is Bill and that his meal's name is Bob. And finally, let's suppose that the tragic encounter between Bill and Bob leads to heated debate about animal confinement and zoo safety. Does this mean we should create Bill (tiger) and Bob (tiger's lunch)? Of course not! Who they are/were is immaterial; all that matters is that chance happened to bring them together in a way that commentators seized upon. And yet it might even be more appropriate to talk about poor Bob than about Nadya Suleman, because the latter is alive and therefore falls under the protection of WP:BLP. BLP states, "Misplaced Pages is an encyclopedia, not a tabloid paper; it is not our job to be sensationalist." A separate article about Suleman is sensationalist. Gutter journalism is sensationalist. An encyclopedia, in contrast, does not focus on a person just because other sources have focused on the person; it focuses on a person when other sources have demonstrated that a person is worth focusing on at the potential expense of that person's privacy. Cosmic Latte (talk) 18:22, 5 March 2009 (UTC)
  • So your saying that Nadya Suleman is a anonymous variable in the event, birth of octuplets, and that she herself is less interesting then that of the birth? I find the facts contradict this statement heavily. She had 6 kids already, all very young, unable to financially support them as it is, used money that could of went to food and clothes and rent to have plastic surgery and ADDITIONAL IVF to have 8 more kids. Has threatened suicide while pregnant with those 8 babies, chose not to selectively reduce the number of fetuses, putting all 8's life in danger, has refused financial support and free care for them, the only future financial support (next few years at least) plan she has is to get more student loans to pay for them and rely on her parents, seems to have clear mental disorders (backed up by reliable sources, if you think that's a blp violation), has had additional cosmetic procedures after the birth of the octuplets before she did TV interviews... all these additional facts about her put her interest and public interest well WELL beyond just having eight babies at once. All the media focus after the first couple days has been directed at HER not the babies. — raeky  18:38, 5 March 2009 (UTC)
  • As for the Gutter journalism, I don't deny that there is that element out there in the world, and some papers/websites are going that route. But there are plenty of reliable news outlets that are not resorting to this kind of tactic, you can't say ALL news about her is Gutter journalism because that is simply false. Our job as editors is to only include information and reference reliable sources, not what the most recent tabloid has said. — raeky  18:51, 5 March 2009 (UTC)
  • Comment: Not that she is an "anonymous variable," even if she should be. What I am saying is that she is a relatively unimportant variable. Okay, maybe a peculiar, eccentric, even irresponsible relatively unimportant variable. Let's make Bill not just any tiger, but a rabid tiger. Now we know a little something about him; he's not so "anonymous" anymore. Or, if it's puzzlement that we're after, then let's go the opposite route: Let's make Bill the carnivore judged to be the friendliest at the zoo. The fact that a thing or two can be said about Bill does not mean he deserves his own article. An article about the event could point out that a rabid/friendly tiger named Bill was involved, but an entire article about him would cave in to demands for sensationalist trivia. Similarly, an article about the octuplets' birth can point out that the mother is a woman named Nadya Suleman, who lives a controversial lifestyle. But the fact remains that no one would be talking about her lifestyle had this event not occurred. She (and her lifestyle) is a footnote to the event, not vice versa. At worst, an article-length preoccupation with this footnote would be gossipy and tabloidish. At best, it still flies in the face of the idea that "Biographies of living persons must be written conservatively, with regard for the subject's privacy." A conservative effort would not go to great lengths to point out that someone's controversial lifestyle surrounds a single event, when a discussion of that event could note the lifestyle in passing. Cosmic Latte (talk) 19:59, 5 March 2009 (UTC)
  • I get the disticnt impression you don't think she should have an article because you don't think anymore attention should be given to her? This is of course a "I don't like it" argument. We're here to decide the notablity of her, not if we agree or disagree with any of her actions. The issue shouldn't be about does she deserve more attention but does she qualify as a notable person according to guidelines and does her BLP withstand the rules of the guidlines. First we start with WP:N; (1) "Significant coverage": with nearly 20,000 referenced news articles, many of wich from very reputable news outlets and are solely focued on her not the octuplets, I think it plainly passes (1). (2) "Reliable": There are THOUANDS of news articles that pass the reliablity test. (3) "Sources": There are THOUANDS of reliable secondary sources. (4) "Independent of the subject": There are THOUANDS of independent reliable secondary sources. (5) "Presumed": The available sources, and their number, are headline news articles from reputable major news outlets. It would be hard to argue it violates (5) either. So I postulate that she passes the WP:N, it states "Notability requires objective evidence" and "Substantial coverage in reliable sources constitutes such objective evidence." You can argue that this violates WP:BLP which states an article "must adhere strictly to all applicable laws in the United States and to all of our content policies, especially: WP:NPOV, WP:V, and WP:OR. For NPOV it is not, at least mine, our intention to express one view over the other. We're trying to add information based on reliable sources. Due to the shear amount o material already published about her we're attempting to do our best wo wade through it to arrive at the most neutral stance. Of course mistakes can and will be made (or already have), but this is where others can come in and help, point out problems. Just because problems might exist now dosn't mean they can't be fixed, and shouldn't be used as a basis for a deletion. We addressed above and for WP:OR: which is "unpublished facts, arguments, speculation, and ideas; and any unpublished analysis or synthesis of published material that serves to advance a position." We srive to make sure everything is properly sourced with a reliable source, ones that are not a source should be added or deleted. The article can remain NPOV, but if there is problems now, it's not a valid argument for deletion as per: WP:NOTCLEANUP. I just don't see how this article violates policies or how she dosn't meet the critera for notablity. — raeky  20:59, 5 March 2009 (UTC)
  • Comment: I'm well aware that she has been mentioned by a bazillion sources. What I am not aware of is any demonstration by any of these sources that she is notable apart from this WP:ONEEVENT. As for the whole NPOV/V/OR thing, BLP is about more than that, as I explained below (; typo correction here). Cosmic Latte (talk) 11:04, 6 March 2009 (UTC)
  • Comment On the one hand, the argument that we don't need two separate articles on this event -- one on the mother, the other on the multiple births -- is appealing. After all, we have only one article on the Dionne quintuplets, which was the equivalent media circus 70-odd years ago. On the other hand, since this is a developing event we really don't know how this story will turn out: it may be that Suleman gains the greater notability for her bizarre obsession with children. What is certain is that at the moment people are looking to Misplaced Pages for information on both subjects, & that there's no harm keeping both articles for the time being -- after all, Misplaced Pages is not paper. -- llywrch (talk) 18:36, 5 March 2009 (UTC)
  • Thats a crystal ball argument, and shouldn't be used in an AfD. I think theres plenty of evidence now that shes notable in her own right. The Dionne quintuplets can't really be compared, first back then big family's of that size wasn't rare, they're identical so it wasn't an intentional act of her parent(s) to have a multiple birth, and they apparently had the means to support the children. A identical multiple birth of that size undoubtably caused a 'media circus' but the focus of the attention was completely different than this case. We need to assess the CURRENT notability of the two, the birth, and the mother as it currently stands not how it might turn out in the future. — raeky  18:43, 5 March 2009 (UTC)
  • Comment: It may be crystal-balling, but even a fortune teller should be pessimistic when it comes to BLPs. An eventualistic attitude is inconsistent with a "conservative" approach that favours a subject's current privacy over the prospect of her future notability. As for current notability, let's not confuse the recent hype with substantive concern. This is not the first time that personal responsibility has been doubted or recommended, and it is not going to be the last. What we have is a biologically notable event with biographically incidental features. To have an article on Suleman is to overstate the biographical, and therefore not to exercise the caution urged by WP:BLP. Cosmic Latte (talk) 19:59, 5 March 2009 (UTC)
  • Comment: An entire paragraph in the introduction: "Biographies of living persons must be written conservatively, with regard for the subject's privacy. Misplaced Pages is an encyclopedia, not a tabloid paper; it is not our job to be sensationalist, or to be the primary vehicle for the spread of titillating claims about people's lives. The possibility of harm to living subjects is one of the important factors to be considered when exercising editorial judgment." And the bulk of WP:1E, e.g., "If reliable sources only cover the person in the context of a particular event, then a separate biography is unlikely to be warranted." Suleman is not notable outside of this event, and any mention of her outside of it is necessarily superfluous and tangential. And going off on tangents is not exactly a conservative approach to writing. Cosmic Latte (talk) 20:56, 5 March 2009 (UTC)
  • Thats why the 3 specific rules must be met under WP:BLP which as I outlined above that I think this article does. Also your logic would seem to mean that we couldn't publish a critique, criticism or any negative information about a BLP. The rules state so long as it is sufficiently sourced with reliable credible secondary sources it's valid for inclusion. Obviously care must be taken to not WP:LIBEL someone, but so long as valid sources are available it is valid to include it so long as you remain WP:NPOV. — raeky  21:09, 5 March 2009 (UTC)
  • Comment: Of course it can be appropriate to have a criticism-based BLP, and I have in fact defended such an article in a prior AfD. To be precise, the article was Criticism of Vladimir Putin, which is perfectly acceptable because the subject is biographically notable in the first place. This accords with WP:WELLKNOWN and WP:NOTCENSORED, and therefore with the idea that even the most sensitive, conservative assessment of him that can be presented within reason will include critical assessments of his activities. Because it has not been established that Suleman deserves to be cast into the limelight, or that, apart from being an incidental figure in a biological event, she is any more than a pawn in the media's money-making game, it is not clear that she can be treated in a sensitive and conservative manner except insofar as she is noted in passing in an article dealing with the event in which she was involved. Furthermore, "the rules" do not "state so long as it is sufficiently sourced with reliable credible secondary sources it's valid for inclusion." If BLP were about nothing more than WP:NPOV, WP:V, and WP:NOR, then it would have no need to state anything beyond, "See WP:NPOV, WP:V, and WP:NOR." Abiding by these three policies is the bare minimum required by BLP. The point isn't that they should be followed (the individual policies can speak for themselves on that point), but that they should be the backbone of a cautious and sensitive approach to biographical figures. And, like I said above, being cautious and sensitive toward Vladimir Putin is not the same as being cautious and sensitive toward Nadya Suleman. The former is already notable enough to have plenty of BLP material, so the question of sensitivity revolves around the ways in which criticism should be presented and counterbalanced. With the latter, the question revolves around whether it is appropruate to give her any biographical attention in the first place. Cosmic Latte (talk) 10:44, 6 March 2009 (UTC)
  • Two notes on the current state of the article Firstly, it has now been semi-protected so BLP problems should stop or at least slow down. Secondly, in response to the repeated suggestions of merging or redirecting, I have added merger tags and begun a discussion here to decide what to do. Beeblebrox (talk) 18:30, 5 March 2009 (UTC)
  • Keep The arguments for merging this article into the octuplets article confounds cause and effect. Suleman is the cause and the octuplets are the effect. If anything the octuplets should be merged into her page. They came from her body, like it or not. It also reeks of misogyny as in (paraphrasing)"giving birth to octuplets is nothing noteworthy" (why then should we merge this article into the article about the octuplets, if the octuplets birth is not noteworthy?). This argument reduces the complexity of Suleman's actions to the product of her womb, in other words, it reduces her as a person to her offspring. She is (obviously) noteworthy for much more than her children, controversial, yes, but noteworthy nonetheless. This reduction of person to offspring is never done with men, only with women and it is done to handle precisely the kind of anxiety that we witness throughout this case, i.e. that female reproductive powers are difficult to control and have broad social, economic, and environmental implications. The primary editors calling for this article to be removed have repeatedly shown personal bias, using language like "gutter tripe" and arguing that Suleman was (paraphrasing once more) "an insignificant player in the birth and in the ensuing media frenzy" (she is the central player)that she has an "unusual approach to motherhood" (millions of women have IVF and are single mothers, in fact, single motherhood predates fatherhood by millions of years -- it is fatherhood that is unusual)etc. I run an organization dedicated to reducing the population through voluntary means, so I in no way support this kind of behavior (Suleman's), but I find it very interesting that the hate we are all witnessing is levied against a woman who dared to reproduce without being properly submitted to a man. Every child born will increase the struggle we all face for increasingly scarce resources, yet we do not generally become enraged with people with big families, only women who choose to go it alone. This is not about protecting her, it is about defining the proper place of women (the controlled)in general and ensuring that men (the controllers)are not increasingly left out of reproductive matters. It is about erasing her. If we can erase this woman's entry (however controversial) then we can "erase" her, which is exactly what historians have systematically done for centuries. Erase women because "having babies is nothing significant." Only a class of people incapable of having babies would adopt this incredibly incorrect position. —Preceding unsigned comment added by LotusOne777 (talk • contribs) 02:02, 6 March 2009 (UTC)

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  • While its good to explain the foundation of our opinion, this lengthy editorial does not belong here. What does the statement "Only a class of people incapable of having babies would adopt this incredibly incorrect position?" mean? Are you assuming that only males want to see this article deleted or merged? Until told otherwise, I'll believe I am interpreting that statement incorrectly. The alternative is too ridiculous to swallow. --Boston (talk) 04:57, 6 March 2009 (UTC)
  • Yes indeed, mothers are very important, the pillars of our society. They should be given medals for being mothers, and we should have lots of Misplaced Pages articles about them. Maybe we should set up WikiProject Your Mother to coordinate all this, to write articles about your mother. Yes, we would have a group of people hunting down every titilating yellow-press factoid we could get out grubby little hands on about the woman that brought you into this world, and then we'd publish them on a Top-10 website so that whole world could find them easily. Because it's important for the world to know what your mother is really like. I suggest that the project starts with thorough investigations of Raeky's mother and Beeblebrox's mother, possibly moving on to investigate LotusOne777's mother as well. Physchim62 (talk) 11:08, 6 March 2009 (UTC)
  • Merge - I don't opine to merge on the basis of not feeling Suleman is notable. Rather, as someone who hadn't previously taken note of her, I would have liked to read about her and the octuplets in a single article of manageable length rather than in two articles. However, since she's at least as notable as the octuplets, maybe the combined article should be called "Nadya Suleman and Suleman octuplets" or something. I'm aware that I'm regarding this with pragmatism rather than interpretation of policy, but since there's plenty of the latter here I've decided to offer the former. --Boston (talk) 03:18, 6 March 2009 (UTC)
  • Comment. We have no article on Lesley Brown, but we do have a short, sensitive and conservative biography of her daughter Louise Brown, the fruit of a far more notable scientific event than the Suleman octuplets, in which Lesley Brown is discussed to the necessary degree (including some quite personal details, with references). This would be the approach I would recommend for Nadya Suleman, but there are too many editors who are unhealthily obsessed with the woman herself to make this possible without deletion of the article and a big BLP rap on the knuckles. Physchim62 (talk) 13:26, 6 March 2009 (UTC)
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