Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 16:24, 8 November 2005

A separate article instead of a redirect

I think the topic is worth its own article rather than simply being a redirect to -phobia. A word "Russophobia" exist in modern English and, as defined by the "The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language", a Rus·so·phobe is the "One who fears or dislikes Russia or its people or culture" and an opposite to a Russophile. I will try to come up with a stub one of these days. Irpen 18:22, Jun 18, 2005 (UTC)

I agree but seems like most people who have been inspired to create the russophobia thread(mostly came out from caucasophobia article) are more specialised in deleting other people's artickes or their parts and aren't really into writing the artickles of their own...

Not much of the writers so to say.. -Gabrichidze

Gabrichidze, please calm down. Where and when did I (of most of the people) delete anything from any of other people's articles, at least without a detailed explanation? As for Mikkalai, we often had our disagreements, but to say he is mostly "specialised in deleting other people's artickes" is a plane lie. Just look at his contributions list. Anyway, unless you would like to say anything about this article, please don't use this page for other purposes. --Irpen 19:07, Jun 18, 2005 (UTC)

Other ethnic and religious phobias

List of phobias has:

Afrophobia Anglophobia Chinophobia Christophobia Dutchphobia Europhobia Francophobia Germanophobia Islamophobia Nipponophobia Judeophobia Mikatikoindicaphobia Papaphobia Polonophobia Russophobia Satanophobia Sinophobia Staurophobia Theophobia Walloonophobia Xenophobia

At least some of these appear to be jokes. Some of the actual articles suffer from ideosyncratic POV, usually without rebuttal. (Afrophobia, Islamophobia) Some do have rebuttal. (Polonophobia) Some actually have relatively neutral historical content. (Anglophobia, Judeophobia, although content pushing a POV is probably attracted to the much longer Anti-semitism instead.) One could also list Anti-Americanism which is another long article.

Overall, I don't think these -phobia pages are a great idea as they are likely to have content with an axe to grind, but it does seem they are established. ----JWB

To have it or not

In vain, at the vfd for caucasophobia I tried to explain that it is not the goal of wikipedia to do original research. Therefore the question should we have russophobia article or not is trivial. If we have books or research articles to draw information from, then the article is a must (probably not exactly under this title). If one wants just to collect paper clippings from all around the worls, then I say "nay".

So please start from the list of academic references. mikka (t) 03:38, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Personally, I think much Russophobia is gone, since the Soviet Union went bust. Zscout370 (Sound Off) 21:27, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)

If we need references first of all, we could start with this:

• Anatol Lieven, "Against Russophobia" , World Policy Journal, Volume XVII, No 4, Winter 2000/01, and references thereof.

This is of course not a complete study of the issue. -Irpen 22:00, Jun 20, 2005 (UTC)

The letter can be inserted in "External Links" chapter. As for the Lieven's article, he is a well respected author with a Carnegie Endowment for International Peace. It's easy to google some of his books and articles. -Irpen 06:37, Jun 23, 2005 (UTC)

How about this lovely website:

The expert phobia team at CTRN's Phobia Clinic is board-certified to help with Russophobia and a variety of related problems. The success rate of our 24 hour program is close to 100%.

Time to send congrats to Vladimir Putin? mikka (t) 06:09, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Russian version

An anon (probably a Russian) made the following comment in his edit summary:

"Let's avoid showing ourselves to the world as idiots. We've got an article on our wikipedia (still far from perfect), lets translate it instead of pretending the world is out to get us."

While the Russian version contains a number of interesting and useful facts, I would not vouch for its complete translation. It is a very unbalanced text: it has everyting: unconfirmed facts, large off-topic digression, a whole POV section, and misinterpretation of the results of a Gallup poll (in the part about baltic states: forgetting that these have a huge proportion of Rus/Bel/Ukr population).

So I'd say, a creative borrowing is required, rather than blind translation. Also, Shafarevich's Rusophobia, which is actually considered to be an anti-Semitic work, deserves a separate article. At the same time, I am aware that some Soviet dissidents, glorified in the West, such as Andrei Amalrik, published blatantly rusophobic statements, so Shafarevich did have a motivation for his views.

So the article most certainly has a potential of fleshing out. mikka (t) 22:57, 13 July 2005 (UTC)

Russophobia in Poland, Baltic States, Eastern Europe. NPOV

First of all stating Eastern Europe was wrong, since Poland is located in Central and Eastern Europe.Secondly the assertion that such countries ware under "influence" of Moscow is a little bit light.They were occupied brutally in XX century.Third not only in XX century but they experienced occupation in past centuries linked with Russification, deportations and mass murder. Fourth, ok can you give specific examples of unjustified fear of Russia ? --82.139.13.231 00:12, 25 August 2005 (UTC)

That is I am all for specified examples.However loose "they are russophobic" is not enough.Especially without mentioning history such as invasion and occupation of Baltic States by Soviet Union, Partitons of Poland, deportations to Siberia etc, Praga Massacre in Poland etc. --82.139.13.231

No one is allowed to come with all this out of their head in wikipedia. References to solid reseach is required in such touchy subjects. Especially this one where it is easy to confuse ethnic dislikes with hatred to the oppressing state. In particular, partitions of Poland is irrelevant here. Hardly Polsih schlachta of these times hated Russian peasants. mikka (t) 00:35, 25 August 2005 (UTC)

The issue of Russophobia is often brought up in connection to the Eastern Europe that was under the influence of Moscow, sometimes heavy-handed, for the most of the 20th century.

Ok.

1. brought by whom ? Any examples ?
2. Eastern Europe.That is a big area.Poland(which was earlier) isn't in Eastern Europe.Is whole Eastern Europe alledged to be Russophobic ? That would include Serbia ?
3. Sometimes heavy handed.Could you point to moment where this wasn't heavy handed ?
4. Most of 20 century.Now that is again false since countries in Central and Eastern Europe where under Russian occupation in previous centuries.
5. Influence ? Why not occupation ? If you want to be precise.Occupation(Baltic States)and puppet governments created by force and with Soviet army presence in those countries.--Molobo 22:08, 25 August 2005 (UTC)

Give some examples.Without this, these are simple allegations of POV nature.Eastern Europe ? Including Belarus and Serbia ? Be precise. I am waiting for comments.--Molobo 22:24, 25 August 2005 (UTC)

On whether PL is an EE, I suggest you move this fight to the Eastern Europe article. On other issues: by whom? Good questions that needs elaboration, I agree. More info needs to be added, not just the NYT article, but the charges are abundant. Give it a little time to pop up there. "Sometimes heavy-handed" means that it varied not just from one time to another but from one place to another. Sometimes, the own rulers were heavy-handed enough. Occupation? At times, it was and at times it wasn't. Some countries, handled opposition on their own often effectively. Finally, don't take deletions lightly. Read Be bold! Also, try to add your thoughts to the article diligently. Don't just throw them in into a random place. Care needs to be taken especially, at controvercial subjects. -Irpen 22:32, August 25, 2005 (UTC)

"Hardly Polsih schlachta of these times hated Russian peasant" So you mean that szlachta liked Russian occupation ? It certainly didn't.Or do you mean Poles of today hate Russians ?--Molobo 22:09, 25 August 2005 (UTC)

No, Szlachta which ruled it's Ruthenian subjects with a heavy hand too, did so not out of national hatred, but for simpler reasons. Same applies to the Russian rule of the later time. I make no judgement whether Poles today hate Russian, which would be an unjustifiable generalization anyway. There are always tsome xenophobes who hate someone. For whatever reasons, the issue got prominence now. No one said that Poles are xenophobes in general. --Irpen 22:32, August 25, 2005 (UTC)

Above posters claim Russian versions has examples.Why aren't they posted here ? It would clear things up.--Molobo 22:17, 25 August 2005 (UTC)

NYT

The article is only available by payment.Thus can't vertified. --82.139.13.231

You must be kidding. Have you ever heard of public libraries? Even if you cannot read it, you have a full reference. mikka (t) 00:37, 25 August 2005 (UTC)

Where ? Why link to link that can't be readed.

First of all, it can be read. Pay and read it. Second, it can be read via many libraries that subscribe. Third, it can be read via other indexing sites, since you have an exact day and title. Also, knowing the exact day, you can walk to the library and get a paper copy. Link is relevant and please leave it alone. --Irpen 22:16, August 25, 2005 (UTC)

Is it about irrational Russophobia or worsening of relations due to real facts and events that cane be interpreted as hostile(justifing Yalta, attempts to takeover energy sector etc) ? --Molobo 22:58, 25 August 2005 (UTC)

Why didn't you google yourself for a mirror copy? . I am sure with a good faith, an acceptable phrasing can be found. Please understand that even if the topics like "occupation", "oppression", etc. are close to your heart, it is better to keep them in their narrow articles and not spread them all over WP throwing a thought here and a thought there. BTW, take a look at coverage of RU in Polonophobia. No one there tried to make it appear an invalid issue and less so delete things. --Irpen 23:21, August 25, 2005 (UTC)

Once again

Please cease to add chaotic remarks on who hated Russians from out of one's head or from newspaper clips. Everyone hated. So what? Everyone knows that. We need an input from solid sources and mention actual facts, to make an encyclopedic article. If you have no time for some book reading, leave it as is.

For example, Irpen adds: the issue of Russophobia is often brought up in connection to the Eastern Europe. This is a weasel phrase and it gives absolutely no information, nor any ways to find an additional info. I may add exactly the same phrase about Russophobia in China, Vietnam, Uzbekistan, Baltic States, Finland, Sweden... Solid facts and research, please. mikka (t) 22:32, 25 August 2005 (UTC)

It is a fact that the RU gov and mass media like to emphasize russophobia of Eastern Europe for whatever reasons (political? could very well be). That's what I meant. In fact, the paper whose quote I removed myslef simply interviewed a Russian influential political figure. That's why I removed the phrase, BTW. It was simply misleading to attribute the words of a notorious Gleb Pavlovsky (a Kremlin political technologist) to the NYT. But it is correct to say, that the charges are indeed made in Russia.

I modified the text to say it more clearly. As per my comment, you are welcome to modify it. You can delete it too if you have such an itch. But that would not be correct IMO. The charges are indeed made (true or false is a different q.). One can argue that this is for political expediency. Fine, then say so in the article. This is the fact that the talk of Russophobia is mostly brought up in RU in connection with the Eastern Europe. I had no intention to use the phrasing that approves or disproves these allegations. It is presented because such allegations in Russia are popular which make them notable. You are welcome to edit further. --Irpen 22:50, August 25, 2005 (UTC)

Sigh. It is sad that I have to explain the ABC to an aged editor. What you just did is called original research. You presented a quotation from a newspaper. What makes me to believe this is not an isolated opinion of an extremist, rather than by "Russian government"? What you wrote is your opinion, your interpretation of what you see. A wikipedia article admits only opinions of external experts published elsewhere. I could have provided a bunch of examples myself, from all over the 'net. But any generaization will still be my original research. mikka (t) 00:18, 26 August 2005 (UTC)

Also, the burden of proof that "such allegations in Russia are popular" is on you. And I know that I am welcome to edit further, but unlike some others I prefer opinions from books and journal articles. But not from newspapers. I am way too old to believe them (but some still do, looks like...). mikka (t) 00:47, 26 August 2005 (UTC)

Mikka, your "sigh" wasn't necessary. Now, to the issue. I am afraid, that we can't agree here, because we are talking from different perspectives. You said earlier elsewhere that you were not following the news from Russia for the last 7 years. However, if you did, you would just know that the Russian media, as well as statements from the officials, including Putin himself, are full of such accusations directed towards Eastern Europe. Rightfully or not, they just seize on those things and this is not "some clippings", that's the overall atmosphere.

Of course, it would be best to supply every statement in WP with a reference, but I am afraid that even you don't always do that. When something is a common knowledge, or at least so feels to us, we just write it. When I was saving GKO or Kolyada from VfD, I didn't look up any sources because I was writing on a stubbish surface level and things I wrote seemed to me a common knowledge. You're right that we need to be extra careful when writing on controversial topics, and I was. I tried to make sure the article doesn't say, that Poles and Balts are Russophobic, because I know for a fact that they aren't, BTW. I wrote that they are accused in that, and substituted a shady sourcing (originally "NYT observed that Poles...") by removing the phrase taken out of contexts and giving an exact ref to an article.

Now, the reputable press, in Russia and in the West (like NYT), certainly would not blindly pick up this info from "programma Vremya" to disseminate it. They would more likely observe the trend in other media and report on it withholding their judgement. That's what NYT did. If you do a search in the RU media, you will see that there is the trend there to accuse the neighbors in Rusophobia. And this would not be just some clippings, but this is a predominant mood that you could only see if you follow it. What good would it make to fill the refs section of the article with such links? It would be impossible to tell whether or not these are just "some clippings" as you like to put it. If necessary, go to any news search engine, and you will find all this stuff. I don't think it will help anything if we add those links though. If you are still not convinced, and want to delete the info, I can't prevent you from doing this and I am not interested in this topic enough to keep arguing or rephrasing. I felt that the info is relevant but was presented in a misleading way. I tried to make it better. If you think it is now worse than it was, feel free to correct it yourself. --Irpen 03:21, August 26, 2005 (UTC)

Discussion subsided. Is this because the current version is suitable unlike the original? If so, I would remove a POV. If not, just raise your objections. I don't think the article is anywhere close to a decent shape, but neutrality and completeness are two different kinds of issues. Edit the article as you see fit. --Irpen 06:19, August 28, 2005 (UTC)

OK, I am removing the POV tag since there were no posts to this page in response to my call. If someone feels like restoring the tag, please explain in view of discussion above. --Irpen 23:47, September 1, 2005 (UTC)

disputed section

"However, while it is probably the main reason now, it is not the only historical reason of it. Russophobia has a long tradition and already existed many centuries before Russia became one of major powers in Europe. Russophobia was closely connected with religious aspects, since some, predominantly Catholic neighbours of Orthodox Russia, for many centuries aimed at gaining control of this vast resource-rich country and converting its inhabitants into Catholicism. To justify that, Russians were portrayed as uncultivated infidels and Asiatic barbrarians and these views became spread throughout Central Europe. The history of the long Russo-Polish conflict for the heritage of the ancient Kievan Rus (which Poland eventually lost) and the loss of Polish imperial status surely contributed to these dislikes.

In the 18th century, when Poland was not yet partitioned, Catherine the Great was known for her words: "The Polish people hate us so deeply, that there is no other way out for us and our security, than to subordinate and to control them"." I think its more rather modern Russian nationalistic theory then objective version of events-there wasn't much care in Poland about Russia, as it was concerned more with internal conflict and in no position to challenge it.Catholicism wasn't strong in Poland at that time also, and Poland was not in a position to aim at Russia, since it was a highly decentralised state where every attempt to raise army or centralise power was met with veto of the nobles...--82.139.13.231 23:49, 18 October 2005 (UTC)

Second that. --Wojsyl 21:14, 24 October 2005 (UTC)

Every word in this section is true. Poland was consequently turning people in the occupied Ukraine and Belarus to Catholicism. Look what the once Orthodox Western Ukraine and Western Belarus look like today. In the Central and Eastern Ukraine there was a strong resistance to that, resulting in many Cossack uprisings. There is much classic literature on that, for example Taras Bulba of Nikolai Gogol, or poems of Taras Shevchenko. Moreover, Poland wanted to subjugate Russia, as it conquered much of it and eventually Moscow in 1611, using the "Times of Troubles", until Poles were expelled by a national peasant army.

However, the section speaks not only of Poland, but also of other Catholic neighbours of Russia, for example the Teutonic knights, who tried to subordinate Russia in order of Rome, until they were beaten by Alexander Nevsky.Voyevoda 21:59, 24 October 2005 (UTC)

What part of the history are you referring to ? It seems you've completely mixed up 20th, 17th and 19th centuries. The statements like "To justify that, Russians were portrayed as uncultivated infidels" are pure soapboxing. --Wojsyl 05:00, 25 October 2005 (UTC)

Nothing is mixed up. The section we are talking about is about the period before Russia became a major power - before Peter the Great. It's abot 13th till 17th century. You should read more about the Northern Crusade of the Teutons which, although not mentioned in the Misplaced Pages article, also included subjugation attempts of Orthodox states, such as Novgorod, Pskov and other parts of Russia. Read about the Polish repressive policy in Ukraine and other Orthodox regions.--Voyevoda 18:13, 26 October 2005 (UTC)

"Read about the Polish repressive policy in Ukraine and other Orthodox regions." You are mixing up XX century with XVII century...Also this is article about Russia not Ukraine...Hardly anybody cared much about Orthodoxy in Poland anyway besides occasional power struggles. --Molobo 21:47, 26 October 2005 (UTC)

This artice is not about Russia. It is about Russophobia, and historical roots are relevant. Or are you saying that Muscovy was not portrayed as uncivilized, barbaric, asian, retarded, infidel, drunk, etc.? mikka (t) 23:10, 26 October 2005 (UTC)

Actually, it would be good to see some examples either here or in the article. I think it could be useful to have this discussed, as it seems clearly to be a matter of POV. I'm not suggesting that the Russian POV is any worse but I suspect it has its roots in tsarist propaganda and fabrications. I don't think that editwarring is a good solution for POV-related issues. Try to consider a compromise. --Wojsyl 06:28, 27 October 2005 (UTC)

Major expansion

I find the major expansion to the article by the user:Moonshiner to be very fascinating, informative and questionable at the same time. I am sure, I am not the last who would have some issues with this and I won't even try to list them all. Just one, if I may, perhaps the one particularly close to the topics close to my heart. The new text says:

These are frequently connected with violations of the human rights of the Russian diaspora residing in those countries (said to be particularly grievous in the Baltic Republics, Ukraine, and Moldova).

I only know from the media about Baltics and Moldova, but as for Ukraine the "particularly grievous Russophobia" is a total nonsense. In the country, where the nationalism itself is a fringe set of ideas totally out of the mainstream, Russophobia is even more of an exotic. Yes, certain excesses in Ukrainization of the educational system took place, state support of UOC-KP may have been also partly anti-Russian but this is not even close to be "particularly grievous".

Just a recent illustration is the 2004 presidential election where a politician with a proven record of a good manager, with no significant compromat of any kind was competing with a convicted criminal. The reason why the difference was only 8% is due to the fact that the media supporting the criminal ran a massive campaign trying to paint his opponent a Ukrainian nationalist. These, mostly baseless accusations, but widely enough publicized, raised so many red flags among the voters, that some voted for convicted criminal just not to support the perceived Ukrainian nationalism. In Ukraine, being accused in UA nationalism may end the political career or at least hinder it.

You can judge by a Ukrainian community at Misplaced Pages that Ukrainian nationalism is an ideology of a fringe minority of it. Same in the whole nation. Fervent Banderivtsis exist on the fringe and the support of these ideas is vary narrow and localized. I just don't want to butcher a beautiful writing of a user:Moonshiner, hoping he will moderate this text on his own. I am sure, more editors who have issues with this text will show up in no time. --Irpen 05:19, 8 November 2005 (UTC)

Added tag

1.The picture from Hotel is hardly russophobic-it mentions people from CIS and obviously they aren't all Russians.We don't know if the price is because of prejudice or some other reason(perhaps a lack of business agreement) or past incidents with people from that area. 2.Statements about Poland are highly dubious.I don't think there is any russophobia in Poland.Examples of Brzezinski or Pilsudski ideas are about stoping Russian imperialism towards neighbouring nations that Russia tries to control, certainly we can't say that opposing Russian imperialism or trying to help establish independent Ukraine is russophobic.

You probably forget your own President's recent statement that "Ukraine without Russia is much better than Ukraine with Russia". A typical sample of Russophobia which induced appropriate retort from Vladimir Putin. Like in Pilsudski's days, the Polish elite is dreaming of partitioning Russia and of Caucasian Prometheism. Your President elect named a street in Warsaw after the terrorist Dudaev. The last tour of the Bolshoi Theatre in Warsaw was booed and obsctructed for political reasons, the BBC reports. The Russian children were beaten in Poland this year. I could continue the list of Russophobic acts for hours. The article's tone is very soft towards the Poles. It is not flooded with the grisly pictures of executions of Russian people, like the Anti-Polonism is, although the material is not wanting. I remove the tag. --Ghirlandajo 13:18, 8 November 2005 (UTC)

3.Statement of Catrine before partitions seems like propagandic justification of aggression on Poland.I wouldn't put Hitler's words on Jewish hatred for Germans in germanophobia article for example.. --Molobo 11:54, 8 November 2005 (UTC)

Agree. Do we have any examples of Polish russophobia in the ethnic sense ? I always thought that Poles had sympathy towards Russians. Political tension or waging wars in history is of course a different issue. --Wojsyl 12:24, 8 November 2005 (UTC)

Read Polish papers. I've been in habit of reading every Russian-related article in Polish media for a couple of years now. Can't remember any article in which Russia was mentioned in a positive context. Judging by Polish brainwashing, the country is a nightmare to live in. Every new article is brimming with hysteria or paranoia. Just yesterday I read a new one which said that "the Polish people take great pride in their cultural and civilsational superiority as compared to Russians". Enough said. --Ghirlandajo 13:18, 8 November 2005 (UTC)

the Polish people take great pride in their cultural and civilsational superiority as compared to Russians Please point to the article. --Molobo 13:50, 8 November 2005 (UTC)

on the side note, lets not remove the tag for now. I said so (above) that people will immediately be here to say its not neutral. I myself pointed out to a specific issue (R. being "particularly grievous in.. Ukraine") which is just nonsense. I attest so not because I am from Ukraine and not a Russophobe but explained above on a very prominent example. The article expansion was needed. The expansion is well written, interesting but largely goes over the top. This needs toning down and then we can remove the tag. --Irpen 16:23, 8 November 2005 (UTC)