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Last Name

Is this spacing correct? Shouldn't there be a space in El Baradei? RickK 04:36, Jun 16, 2004 (UTC)

Looks wrong, but that's how I see it in Google.

By the way, a Washington Times editorial said:

In early October, the IAEA's Mr. ElBaradei suddenly demanded that the Iraqi interim government account for the explosives at al Qaqaa. After monitoring the cache for a decade (and a year and a half after the fall of Baghdad), Mr. ElBaradei says he now wants answers. This of course has nothing at all to do with the U.S.-led opposition to Mr. ElBaradei's hope for a third term as director-general, as reported by Agence France Presse in late September. It appears that from the IAEA on down to the New York Times and CBS News, which planned to run the story on Oct. 31, the whole point behind the missing-cache story was to create an "october surprise" on the eve of the election.

I just checked the IAEA website. His name there is indeed "Mohamed ElBaradei". No space between "El" and "Baradei". Since he runs IAEA, let's assume that this is his preferred spelling, and that this is how he is referred to professionally in English. -- PFHLai 05:01, 9 October 2005 (UTC)

Last Name (reply)

The spelling of his name was bothering me, so I went searching for answers. Since I speak a little arabic, I found an Arabic document on the UN website with his name in the title. It is spelt like Al-Baradei, but for Egyptian names it is commonly transliterated as El-Baradei. As far as the spacing, it is up to the discretion of whoever writes the name. In Arabic, the 'Al' is attached to the last name, so it does sort of make sense to put the words together without a space. From the best of my research, I find that his name probably just comes from early writing of his name that way, which just sort of stuck. Hopefully someone who knows more will stop by and clarify.

Hello, Mr. Anonymous Contributor. Perhaps you could dig up the proper Arabic spelling for his name as well?

And please, don't remove or edit your own contribution without any comment. Just providing something like "rewrote paragraph on X for clarity" or "rephrased question about Y and added some background info" in the "Edit summary" box would be nice. Saves the paranoid among us from having to compare pages just to see what it was you didn't want us to know, if nothing else. (That last bit was a joke.) -- 09:23, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC) magetoo

In the ALA-LC (Library of Congress) system, for what it's worth, the transliteration of his name would be Muḥammad al-Barādi`ī. The third letter is an h with a dot under it. The next-to-last letter should be a left single quote mark. I will now flee before the transliteration police get here. :-)
--Cam 02:02, 9 October 2005 (UTC)

I have returned to clarify that, in this instance, the LC doesn't use a strict transliteration for its authorized heading (see authority control) but instead uses the more common form Mohamed El Baradei.--Cam 02:36, 9 October 2005 (UTC)

Awesome work Cam. Thanks. --Avengerx

Downer?

Sorry, that's news to me. "There was no potential candidate to bid against his reelection, though he US tried to convince Australian Foreign Minister Alexander Downer, who declined, to run for job." How come the Australian media hasn't picked up on this? He must be the most disliked politician in the Liberal party cabinet, with the exception of perhaps Ruddock or Vanstone. - Ta bu shi da yu 05:33, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC)

well then you really don't know Australia if that is what you think. I don't know why Foreign Minister Alexander Downer would be hated, he deals with international diplomacy. It would also be good if you used the proper terms when refering to these people such as Senator Amander Vanstone rather than just Vanstone. Mattrix18 10:17, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

I'm surprised that the Australian media hasn't mentioned it more, but it did get one or two references — here, for example, and here. A Google search for "Alexander Downer" and "IAEA" is here. I don't know what the source of the claim is, though. -- Vardion 21:17, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC)

How can he win the Nobel Prize?

This is a man who has been so entirely undermined by Iranian escalation tactics, threatening any UN intervention with possible aggression, that he and his EU-led cronies have backed down almost entirely. He has allowed Iran to carry on its enriching activities with utter impunity, but he harps on US involvement in Iraq and stolen weapons. Wow. Talk about misplaced priorities.--Michaelk 01:18, 8 October 2005 (UTC)

I also don't agree with his winning of the Nobel Prize. While I don't have as strong of negative feelings about him as you do, I feel that the decision was politically motivated rather than properly awarded. His criticism of American policy is what wins him notierity; when it should instead be his works for the IAEA that gets him attention. Sadly, he isn't doing his job correctly, especially with the Iran debacle.--AvengerX 01:40, 8 9 October 2005

Agreed. The Times Online wrote a great article outlining every reason he should never even have been considered, let alone won.

1. Before the 1991 Gulf War (before Dr ElBaradei’s appointment), the IAEA failed to detect Saddam’s nuclear programme. After the war, it was startled by the scale of his work to make fissile material.

2. Under Dr ElBaradei, the IAEA missed the Libyan nuclear programme, which Libya chose to reveal after the 2003 Iraq war.

3. It missed Iran’s 20-year covert nuclear research programme, exposed by Iranian dissidents three years ago.

4. It failed to detect the “nuclear supermarket” run by A. Q. Khan, the Pakistani scientist who sold plans and components to Libya, North Korea and Iran.

5. It was slow to sound the alarm about North Korea’s conversion of its civil nuclear power into a weapons programme. The US accused North Korea of weapons ambitions in 2002.

For more info, read the article for yourself at http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,3-1816612,00.html. --Michaelk 16:42, 8 October 2005 (UTC)

Perhaps he was given the prize for opposing what many consider to have been the vicious and illegal invasion of Iraq. Personaly I don't understand why some countries are allowed to have nuclear weapons and others not, especially given that US policy prioriutises US citizens, SqueakBox 16:50, 8 October 2005 (UTC)

there seems to be some confusion about the IAEA's role. it is not a policing, investigating agency. it is not an intelligence organisation. its job, as i understand it, is to verify that nations which agree to co-operate with it, use nuclear facilities safely, securely, and for peaceful purposes(if they have so agreed). neither 'rogue' states nor 'god's own' states such as the US offer IAEA inspectors full and untrammeled access to facilities, personnel or information to enable IAEA to detect non-compliance by the states. the iaea's job is to ensure that nuclear power is used appropriately, to the extent it can given the above limits to its access. the job of unearthing covert weapons programmes ... etc is the job of intelleligence organisations. the job of convincing or coercing nations to co-operate and obey the nuclear dogma ("we'll keep ours, you don't make yours") is that of the security council and individual nations.

it is the IAEA's job to inform its "superiors" whether the cooperation it receives is adequate for it to perform the verification it needs to do. in this, if the US state department disagrees with the IAEA, it can

1. put up the info it (the state dept.) has gathered to make the IAEA "see" that cooperation is not adequate.
2. fire the IAEA staff and appoint others to do a better job, which it can only do if it can convince other states on the iaea's board of governors (is it?) to do likewise.

if the state dept is unable to do either, it's not the iaea's problem.

Doldrums 18:07, 8 October 2005 (UTC)

And what has the IAEA/Baradei done about Israel's nuclear arsenal? A couple of nervous statements and no action or results. 80.6.30.24 00:39, 9 October 2005 (UTC)

Did you read what Doldrums said? The IAEA is not responsible for monitoring Israel anymore then it is responsible for monitoring Iran as neither are currently allowing the IAEA to do so Nil Einne 09:12, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

controversy & october surprise

the controversy section is more aptly titled 'US opposition to ElBaradei". mention needs to be made of criticism of ElB from elsewhere. here's a start - Gong for dubious level of achievement by Bronwen Maddox (Foreign Editor's Briefing) The Times, October 08, 2005 http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,3-1816612,00.html

An october surprise section seems unwarranted, atmost it merits a mention under 'US opposition ...". Doldrums 08:57, 8 October 2005 (UTC)

Quotes

Quotes should be part of a narrative, or moved to en.wikiquote.org. Rd232 13:03, 8 October 2005 (UTC)

"Considered stooge"

I removed User:InnocentMinds addition to the 2005 Nobel Peace Prize section (emphasized):

Considered by many as a stooge of the West (particularly the US) for allowing Western countries develop peaceful nuclear programs while disallowing Muslim Iran to do so. On October 7 2005, ElBaradei and the IAEA itself were announced as joint recipients of the prestigious Nobel Peace Prize ...

It doesn't belong in the Nobel Peace Prize section, and it should be rephrased to try and avoid POV (considered -- by whom?). -- magetoo 13:01, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

Removed "Nuclear Club" Reference

I have removed para 2 of the Controversy section. It read as follows:

"During ElBaradei's term as Director General for the IAEA, the following countries have joined the nuclear club: India, Pakistan, and North Korea. It also should be noted that India and Pakistan did not sign the Nuclear non-proliferation treaty."

This is imprecise at best. First of all, the author of this paragraph did not specify whether joining the nuclear club involves the production of nuclear energy, performing uranium enrichment, detonating nuclear weapons, or stating intents about these activities. In any event, India detonated its first nuclear bomb in 1974 (a whole 23 years before ElBaradei's 19979 appointment). Pakistan started developing its nuclear program in 1972. North Korea has been operating its reactor at Yongbyon since the 1960s or shortly thereafter. In addition, the relationship between India and Pakistan not having signed the NPT and Mohamed ElBaradei's tenure at the IAEA is quite tenuous.--Nicsilo 19:33, 5 May 2006 (UTC)

While I'm not asking for the re-insertation, generally speaking the nuclear club refers to those who are believed to have developed working nuclear weapons, usually by having successfully publicly tested them (e.g. India, Pakistan) but sometimes even without a successful public test (e.g. Israel) Nil Einne 09:09, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

Quotefarm template

Is four quotes too many for an article of this length and importance? Where are guidelines saying that it is? -Pgan002 (talk) 00:54, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

Guidelines emphasize paraphrasing and limiting full quotations. The goal is to avoid plagiarizing news, and that is the reasoning behind limiting quotes. IMO 4 quotes is hardly too many, if anything it's not enough. Wikifan12345 (talk) 03:02, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

Recent reorganization

I think the recent reorganization has been an improvement. I objected to two new sections, and I wanted to explain. I took the somewhat drastic step of deleting two new sections that I thought were extraneous to this article. While the sections on U.S. and Israeli views addressed their views of ElBaradei, the sections on Iranian and NAM views were opinions on the Iran nuclear issue. This article is not the place to recapitulate the IAEA role in Iran and rehash Iran's position on the overall controversy. I am not familiar with Iran's (or the NAM's) stated views on the IAEA's handling of Iran, so I was not in a position to replace these sections with relevant material. I encourage others to do so. NPguy (talk) 21:26, 19 March 2009 (UTC)

Your point is fair enough. WP requires multiple viewpoints, as you seem to agree with.--69.208.130.188 (talk) 02:04, 20 March 2009 (UTC)

Israeli viewpoint section

This section is titled "Israeli viewpoint" - and should, obviously, include the Israeli viewpoint, nothing more nor less. The Nobel committee's opinion of ElBaradie is not "the Israeli viewpoint". Iran's comments regrading its nuclear program are not ""the Israeli viewpoint". Elbaradie's opinion about Iran's nuclear program are not "the Isreali viewpoint". As I wrote, if these are well referenced, they may have a place in a different section in the article, but not under "Israeli viewpoint", since they are, quite plainly, not the "the Israeli viewpoint". I haven't yet looked at the other sections to see if they have similar issues, but if they do, they need to be fixed, as well. Canadian Monkey (talk) 23:53, 20 March 2009 (UTC)

The thing is that Caroline Glick was writing her op-ed in response to ElBaradei winning the Nobel Prize, and she even mentions it in her article. And since the article is about ElBaradei, it only seems natural that his response or view of the viewpoints would be given. Do you think naming the sections "<Country> viewpoint and response", etc. or adding "response" sections to each country would be more appropriate?

(Just for reference, the ElBaradei quotes in other sections include "ElBaradei has urged Member States which have provided information to the Agency to agree to the Agency´s sharing of this information with Iran", "ElBaradei has said that contrary to the requests of the Security Council and the Board of Governors, Iran has not suspended its enrichment related activities", etc; If you don't like the idea of leaving it as it is or adding a response section, could you propose something?)

Thanks,--69.208.130.188 (talk) 01:47, 21 March 2009 (UTC)

Disagree. I don't think it is inappropriate to segregate "Israeli viewpoints" while merging everything else in a criticisms/controversies section. That kind of activity screams POV and is a clear gesture to reduce legitimate critism by washing it as "Israeli viewspoints." Let's go ahead and divide all criticisms according to opinion: Views by American viewspoints, Arab viewpoints, Saudi viewpoints, etc... The only justified section would be "Views of Iran" or "Iranian viewpoints." They are the ones on trial, not Israel. Wikifan12345 (talk) 07:33, 21 March 2009 (UTC)

Every view had the exact same header? I don't understand how or why you felt one area was receiving different treatment, and this shouldn't be the case with any of the viewpoints.--69.208.130.188 (talk) 21:21, 21 March 2009 (UTC)

What are you talking about? You tagged a Jpost and WSJ editorial as formal viewpoints for two sovereign governments. Please rationalize that. Wikifan12345 (talk) 04:29, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

The Jerusalem Post/Caroline Glick isn't an "Israeli" viewpoint? What kind of viewpoint would you call it? Why wouldn't this material and other material be appropriate under reaction since it is indeed a reaction?--69.208.130.188 (talk) 05:21, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

No, just because it comes from an Israeli does not mean it represents Israel's POV. Get it? It is very rare for articles to segregate criticisms/praise/commentaries based on the nationality of journalists. Wikifan12345 (talk) 05:52, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

I don't understand how you drew the implication that it would inherently represent Israel's POV, so I don't really get it. And again why wouldn't this material and other material be appropriate under reaction since it is indeed a reaction?--69.208.130.188 (talk) 14:22, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

ALSO - inaccurate section, changing immediately

Magazines such a WJ, Jeruselum Post, etc... do not speak on behalf of the United States, Israel, etc... Unless they are quoting x official, including their material in such a section is simply inaccurate. I'm going to merge everything according to the original section. Too many divisions are distracting and totally unnecessary. Wikifan12345 (talk) 07:36, 21 March 2009 (UTC)

The current sectioning doesn't seem completely logical, but my major problem before was content, not organization.--69.208.130.188 (talk) 21:21, 21 March 2009 (UTC)

Waaaay too long

I think we need to reduce the size and overall scope of the article. We can definitely reduce the awards section, that isn't particularly notable. Try to merge most criticism together, perhaps create a praise section since a lot of the info in "reactions" mostly consists of compliments. One IP user is consistently rerouting sources and changing words around, it's extremely annoying so whoever you are please slow down. Thanks. Wikifan12345 (talk) 23:27, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

Sources aren't being rerouted at all, information is simply being provided.--69.208.130.188 (talk) 03:13, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

According to Misplaced Pages:Article size, the article is just fine in length.--69.208.130.188 (talk) 03:20, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

And a "praise" section is going to have the same problem as a "criticism" section, it has an inherent point of view.--69.208.130.188 (talk) 03:21, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

Criticism/controversies section is justified if the cited material consists of criticisms and controversies. Renaming it "viewpoints" or "reactions" or whatever other euphemism is nothing short of false. Similar characters, such as Richard A. Falk, have a criticism section. Point is, there is a vast amount of backlash cited throughout the article to warrant such a title. Being neutral does not mean omitting facts for positive bias. Also, don't spam my page with warnings because I warned you. Seriously, not cool. Wikifan12345 (talk) 04:17, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

I provided you with a warning asking you not to remove tags from the article when there is a dispute on the talk page, so please don't remove tags and I won't request that you not remove them. I am not convinced that a Controversy/Criticism section is appropriate for a biography of a living person, and I would point out that this material can be incorporated in to the article in a number of other ways.--69.208.130.188 (talk) 05:23, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

There was no recent dispute challenging the neutrality. BILP has nothing to do with controversy/criticism section and to be honest I don't care if you aren't convinced. If you want to engage in a formal consensus please do, but continually demanding a justified title to be removed because you aren't convinced. I do agree content should be spread out accordingly, but shifting notable criticisms around to under-represent their importance won't fly. Wikifan12345 (talk) 05:50, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

The discussion has been on the talk page for a few days, right around when the tag went up. BLP in general just says to be more sensitive about the quality of information which is included in a biography of a living person. Criticism sections are strongly discouraged in general, and they are thus even more strongly discouraged on a biography of a living person

According to WP:POVFORK, there is currently no consensus whether criticism sections are always a POV fork, "but it is a common fault of many articles. If possible, refrain from using "criticism" and instead use neutral terms such as "perception" or "reception"; if the word "criticism" must be used, make sure that such criticism considers both the merits and faults, and is not entirely negative (consider what would happen is a "Praise of..." article was created instead)".

And there is also a similar quote from Jimbo Wales:

In many cases they are necessary, and in many cases they are not necessary.
And I agree with the view expressed by others that often, they are a symptom of bad writing. That is, it isn't that we should not include the criticisms, but that the information should be properly incorporated throughout the article rather than having a troll magnet section of random criticisms.

— Jimbo Wales, Criticism sections on bios of living people

The information should be spread throughout the article, not distilled in to one area with a tendentious name no less.--69.208.130.188 (talk) 13:35, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

Right. Criticisms section is necessary because he is a controversial figure and "moving" around criticism will devalue their legitimacy, as you have been attempting to do by aggressively putting redundant praise/flattery within the section. I don't car what Wales said and I'm surprised you would use such a pathetic appeal to authority fallacy. Your civil POV-pushing will not be tolerated for much longer, trust me. Wikifan12345 (talk) 04:33, 24 March 2009 (UTC)

Comment on perception of content, not on perception of contributor. Why don't you offer a justification for keeping only negative information in one tendentiously named section of the article? And I don't understand what is wrong with trying to appeal to consensus.--69.208.130.188 (talk) 09:33, 24 March 2009 (UTC)

The recent edits seem like heavy-handed hagiography. The criticism section is probably also a bit overdone, the Israeli op-ed being a case in point. But its rhetoric is so over the top that it rebuts itself. I guess the praise section is also transparently over the top. The article is not improved. NPguy (talk) 20:51, 24 March 2009 (UTC)

Anyways, the article seems to have a wider array of views in it now, but I agree it could always be improved. I would just point out that the article is never settled text and that there is an editing and discussion process for this very reason.--69.208.130.188 (talk) 02:26, 25 March 2009 (UTC)

The criticism section was less than 4 paragraphs before unknown IP loaded it with fluff and POV-pushing. Ugh. Wikifan12345 (talk) 03:23, 25 March 2009 (UTC)

My IP is known if you would check my signature or the page history. Could you explain how quoting the U.N. Secretary General and different governments is "POV-pushing"? The viewpoints are cited and attributed under their relevant topics, so I do not see why attributing particular governmental stances is "POV-pushing".--69.208.130.188 (talk) 12:42, 25 March 2009 (UTC)

Ugh. Wikifan12345 (talk) 07:22, 1 April 2009 (UTC)

I don't really understand your clarification.--76.251.250.43 (talk) 14:11, 1 April 2009 (UTC)

POV flag

Someone added a POV tag to this article. You aren't supposed to do that without explaining the POV problem. Please do, or I'll delete the tag. NPguy (talk) 18:58, 1 April 2009 (UTC)

I removed the tag since I couldn't find the problem being explained specifically. If there are specific concerns, they should be listed here on talk first.

To the editor who added the tag, I would note I haven't been in disagreement with any proposals which have recently been made, so perhaps you could try editing/improving the article before bringing the issue to the talk page. Summarizing some content, adding some "missing" content, etc. would seem fine.--76.251.250.43 (talk) 21:59, 1 April 2009 (UTC)

Sigh. Right - article suffers from extreme POV clutter, especially here, here, and here. Criticism/controversy section was suspiciously mixed/merged with "viewpoints", and some points simply deleted. The article lacks focus, it jumps from praise to *yawn* fluffy facts that don't really matter. An IP user radically edited the article without going to talk about a month ago, forcing myself to revert/fix but eventually I just got bored. It is clear this article suffers from extreme POV-pushing and unfortunately these attacks have gone largely unrecognized by users considering the relative infrequent moderation of the article. It is also suspect when entire paragraphs are supported by single sources, and section titles are renamed without consensus. POV tag is as far as I'm willing to go. Feel free to fuck up the article beyond that. Wikifan12345 (talk) 05:03, 2 April 2009 (UTC)

So it still seems you need to enumerate specific content and have specicifc proposals about what you're liking to change. I seemed to identify the following issues from your paragraph:

• Article contains fluffy facts that don't really matter

• First, you need to specify and enumerate "fluffy" facts. If a source is misquoted or misparaphrased, you should add a {{disputed}} tag to the specific statements.

• Entire paragraphs are supported by single sources

• The proper resolution to this is to add a {{fact}} tag to material which is not found in sources.

• Section titles are renamed without consensus

• There seems to be some discussion of the section titles on talk, and article content is always changing. Controversy/criticism sections, much as homage/exaltation sections, are usually discouraged as a rule of thumb because they turn in to a POV-fork. POV-forks may imply that details in the main passage are "true" and imply that other material is "controversial" and therefore more likely to be false. A more neutral approach may result by folding debates into the narrative rather than "distilling" them into separate sections that ignore each other. For example, Adolf Hitler doesn't need a criticism section, and Jesus Christ doesn't need a praise section, the content should simply be attributed and the reader should be able to form their own opinion. If there is content which was removed or which is missing, simply add where it is appropriate or create a new section (about the topic of the criticism rather than the particular stance taken).

So it would be helpful if you could provide specific examples of the above in each respective section and a proposal of what you are wishing to change.--76.251.250.43 (talk) 09:12, 2 April 2009 (UTC)

Been there done that. I'm not going to feed you and will continue to add the POV tag save from edit warring. Wikifan12345 (talk) 21:24, 5 April 2009 (UTC)

Again, you need to enumerate specific problems and propose remedies for the tag(s) to remain.--99.130.163.56 (talk) 12:07, 6 April 2009 (UTC)

Already did. Wikifan12345 (talk) 16:42, 6 April 2009 (UTC)

No, I don't think you did. The complaints have been generic, without specific suggestions for fixes. NPguy (talk) 19:54, 6 April 2009 (UTC)::::::First of all, Misplaced Pages:Civil POV pushing, just blunt. I can't restore info when it backlogs 100 edits. I make one edit, it's reverted, replaced with b.s and/or fluff, then dozens of more edits make it impossible to insert the original sentence save from reverting back to my (or whoever else) version. Citing an entire section is not ridiculous. I don't need your encouragement,[REDACTED] is a place for collaboration and you and your buddies unilaterally fucked up the article and removed any progress I and others made before going to talk. POV tag stays. Wikifan12345 (talk) 22:24, 6 April 2009 (UTC)

Right. So there is room for improvement if or when specific suggestions are made. I would note that no users have voiced concern with anything you have proposed, so there is no ongoing dispute. It would be better for you (Wikifan12345) to just edit the article directly to cover missing issues, etc. These tags are only for active debate/disputes about specific issues. No one has challenged anything you have proposed.--99.130.163.56 (talk) 20:53, 6 April 2009 (UTC)

There was room for improvement before you (or the other anonymous IP address, LOL), deleted ENTIRE cited info, removed the criticism/controversies section and LOADED the article with b.s. This, for example, isn't necessary: blah blah self-promotion. This needs to be merged with controversies if the viewpoints qualify, blah blah. This needs to be reverted back to its original state a month ago, blah. We have critics and supporters commenting on HIS viewpoints. They need to be separated like they were before and not doing so is suspect. Simple and concise is always better. I had to deal with some idiot IP address who wouldn't stop deleting/moving around and fucking up the article with fluff and irrelevant facts, ultimately forcing myself to leave. This is why a POV tag is necessary. The fact that you don't recognize these problems is also a concern. Dispute proved and challenged sufficiently, tag stays. Wikifan12345 (talk) 21:29, 6 April 2009 (UTC)

First of all, no personal attacks and no incivility. Second of all, if cited information was removed then simply restore it. Thirdly, criticism sections are strongly discouraged and the information is supposed to be merged in to the main article (you suggested this and it already has been done). Citing an entire cited and verifiable section seems silly and ridiculous, but you would still tag the section and not the article. I would strongly encourage you to instead point out specific issues within the sections as outlined above.--99.130.163.56 (talk) 22:21, 6 April 2009 (UTC)

First of all, I'm not being uncivil, just blunt. I can't restore info when it backlogs 100 edits. I make one edit, it's reverted, replaced with b.s and/or fluff, then dozens of more edits make it impossible to insert the original sentence save from reverting back to my (or whoever else) version. Citing an entire section is not ridiculous. I don't need your encouragement,[REDACTED] is a place for collaboration and you and your buddies unilaterally fucked up the article and removed any progress I and others made before going to talk. POV tag stays. Wikifan12345 (talk) 22:24

Also, I replaced the POV tag with one that is more accurate. Wikifan12345 (talk) 22:30, 6 April 2009 (UTC)

To me, your language seems very heated. I have been not been working directly with anyone else on the article, so your charge that we "unilaterally fucked up the article" seems completely unwarranted and seems like a comment on contributor and not on content. I have requested an outside opinion on the issue of the templates and I would still encourage you to enumerate specific issues within the sections you are complaining about.--99.130.163.56 (talk) 22:35, 6 April 2009 (UTC)

Template usage

Template:RFCbio To summarize the section above, I only feel that a tag for the article should be included if specific problems are listed. I feel that the editor who places the tag on the article should be making edits to "fix" the article, and not just labelling sections POV without a proper explanation. I am seeking the input of other editors on this matter.--99.130.163.56 (talk) 22:59, 6 April 2009 (UTC)

Comment from RFC As a point of principle, yes, POV tags need to be accompanied by an adequate explanation of what the problem is. The degree of specificity can be argued over, but it should be more than mere justification for adding the tag: it should be a starting point for somebody wanting to fix the problem. That said, in this particular case the article does look pretty obviously unbalanced. A big part of the reason for that is that it's going into far too much detail which doesn't belong here, but should be elsewhere (eg IAEA, nuclear program of Iran). Somehow the editors have collectively completely lost sight of the fact that this is supposed to be a biography. Rd232 00:54, 7 April 2009 (UTC)

It was fairly biased and concise, and about HALF AS LONG. 2 IP users came and fucked it all up and demanded everyone specify every little problem that is wrong. Problems that THEY created. Leave the tag, hopefully it will draw people to talk instead of passing off the false impression that all is well. Considering noticeboard if these IPs don't play ball. Wikifan12345 (talk) 01:19, 7 April 2009 (UTC)

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