Misplaced Pages

Orthodoxy in Albania

A new entry, created by FabioAbazaj (talk · contribs) on 8 February 2009. There were serious problems with the three references I could check (other two are in Albanian and Greek). Those blatant failures to comply with our verifiability and no original research policies makes me doubious of the entire content of this entry (mostly unreferenced). A general revision & clean-up is needed.

See Talk:Orthodoxy in Albania#Entry in need of general revision & clean-up. - Regards, Ev (talk) 17:17, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

Discussion regarding project organization

Any comments regarding the structure and function of Christianity related material are welcome at Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Christianity/General Forum#Project organization. Be prepared for some rather lengthy comments, though. There is a lot of material to cover there. John Carter (talk) 17:43, 13 March 2009 (UTC)

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Proposed mergers

It has been suggested that Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Oriental Orthodoxy and Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Christianity/Syriac Christianity work group be merged into this project, which would then have as its scope all of Eastern Christianity, possibly also changing the project's name in the process to reflect the broader scope. Opinions?

Support

1. I support both proposed mergers. John Carter (talk) 16:22, 29 March 2009 (UTC)
2. I support the proposed merger. This project is greatly understaffed and could benefit from the merging of other similar projects with similar goals. Grk1011/Stephen (talk) 16:24, 29 March 2009 (UTC)
3. Strong support, being fully aware of the differences between Oriental Orthodoxy, Eastern Orthodoxy, the Church of the East, and the Eastern traditions who owe alliegance to the Roman pope. There are so few active editors who work on anything relating to Eastern Christianity that I strongly support a consolidation. To suggest that the differences will confuse people is not being honest about our editors, we can assume that any intrested editor will KNOW the difference between - e.g. - the Copts and the Maronites. Eastern Christianity editors have long worked together on Portal:Eastern Christianity. The main focus of the project was agree on long when the {{Eastern Christianity}} template was set up. I have several other reasons for thinking this is a good thing and will present if the need arises. All in all, I would like a single nexus point for editors who are intrested in Eatsern Christianity. -- Secisek (talk) 05:13, 30 March 2009 (UTC)
4. Although not a member of the WP, Support merger. In a previous life, I was in favor of having independent wp's for different traditions. However, I have come to see the strong advantages of having a slightly wider group of interested editors involved - especially when the pool of interested editors is so very small. As to the differences between the groups, the merger is not an attempt to paint over that. Indeed, their respective traditions need not be in communion for collaboration to work. What the shared WP acknowledges is a shared history and some shared perspectives / interests that would help collaborative editing. Athanasius • Quicumque vult 19:50, 11 May 2009 (UTC)

Oppose

1. There is no way anyone who understands the difference between Eastern Orthodoxy and Oriental Orthodoxy can support such a merger. The only basis for lumping them together in some peoples minds seems to be that they share the name "Orthodox". Please do not do this. They are no more the same than any two distinct branches of Christianity. B'er Rabbit (talk) 19:12, 29 March 2009 (UTC)

Discussion

Considering that main difference between the churches is only the hierarchy and that most aspects relating to worship are the same makes the merger a great idea. Some churches already included in the Eastern Orthodoxy project, such as the Greek Orthodox old calendar churches, are practically identical to those of say Oriental Orthodoxy. Also the Ecumenical Patriarchate is in communion with the Coptic Orthodox Church (Oriental Orthodox) so obviously they approve of each others doctrines further proving their similarities and supporting the merge. Grk1011/Stephen (talk) 16:24, 29 March 2009 (UTC)

This is exactly where people get confused. The Coptic Church is not and never has been in communion with Eastern Orthodox, they do not approve of each others doctrines (Oriental Orthodox will never accept that Christ has two separated natures), they have had rival patriarchs for Alexandria and Antioch, etc since the 5th century, and they have had quite separate histories. The Oriental Orthodox split off from the pope in the 5th century. The Eastern Orthodox split from the Pope in the 11th century. These two groups did not arise by splitting from each other and thus their only shared history is that before the 5th century. B'er Rabbit (talk) 19:30, 29 March 2009 (UTC)

According to the wiki article, "In the summer of 2001, the Coptic Orthodox and Greek Orthodox Patriarchates of Alexandria agreed to mutually recognize baptisms performed in each other's churches, making re-baptisms unnecessary, and to recognize the sacrament of marriage as celebrated by the other." I remember this because we have a lot of Coptic and Ethiopian Orthodox attending our churches, as there aren't really any Oriental Churches here. They participate just as Greek Orthodox would, no difference. Like I said, the big difference is the hierarchy, they did not unite, they just decided to recognize each other. Regardless, this is irrelevant because the purpose of the merger is to make the project more substantial. Like John Carter said, it may have to be renamed "Eastern Christianity", but either way, you cannot deny the similarities between the churches and the fact that the project would be more efficient with this merger. Grk1011/Stephen (talk) 19:45, 29 March 2009 (UTC)

Agreed that they are different versions of Christianity. So, for that matter, are the Assyrian Church of the East and the various Eastern Catholic Churches. The reasons for proposing the mergers are (1) both the Syriac Christianity group and the Oriental Orthodoxy project are very inactive, so those articles receive comparatively little attention from anyone, and (2) for whatever reason, I think before I started here, Template:Eastern Christianity and Portal:Eastern Christianity already link them all as "Eastern Christianity." Personally, I'd like seperate groups on the Assyrian Church, the Eastern Catholic churches, and the Oriental Orthodox. But, right now, there doesn't seem to be much activity in either existing group, certainly not enough to justify either of the other groups continuing to, basically, vegetate and remain inactive. John Carter (talk) 19:47, 29 March 2009 (UTC)

I don't think lack of activity right now is a good reason for lumping in distinct groups either. Misplaced Pages isn't going anywhere, it continues to grow. Try to imagine 50 years from now, there may be millions of more editors, including members of both faiths, who haven't even been born yet. What is the rush to get everything "moving" quickly? There is a place to deal with the Oriental project if anything comes up, and there are editors like myself who watch the page and respond accordingly and do not wish it to be lumped in, that seems to imply just too much that isn't reality. B'er Rabbit (talk) 20:03, 29 March 2009 (UTC)

Lack of activity generally equals lack of attention to the articles, and that is something I think the articles on the OO shouldn't have. And, for what it's worth, you might be interested in seeing here that I created that project myself. The purpose of merging is to prevent the articles from suffering the lack of attention and lack of development that they have recently been experiencing. I've heard elsewhere User:Secisek indicating that he was one of the few actively involved in not just the project, but developing the content, and that is what the project is for. Not many people leave notes on any project talk page, anyway. And, in any event, that page is just a way to support the content, and, right now, that project has been supporting the content rather inadequately. Getting more eyes who have an interest in the articles is always to the benefit of the content. I've myself observed that project from the time I created it, and have seen little reason to think that my hopes that it would be an effective collaboration will be fulfilled. My interest is in seeing the content developed, and, although there are differences between the bodies, there is enough in common that the unification will likely help some of those articles in ways that they aren't now being helped by the independent group. John Carter (talk) 20:11, 29 March 2009 (UTC)

It sounds like it doesn't matter how many more reasons I point out to you for being against this, you are going to argue with all of them and end up "deciding" that it was unanimous to lump them in together anyway as if they were practically the same thing and as if there was no objection from anyone. We're used to that kind of treatment. B'er Rabbit (talk) 20:26, 29 March 2009 (UTC)

Obviously we will be waiting for more input. The projects won't be merged unless there is consensus. So far only 3 people have commented, which also hints at the projects' lack of participation. I would like at least 20 people to weigh in. Grk1011/Stephen (talk) 21:25, 29 March 2009 (UTC)

That is optomistic. I doubt we will find 20 active editors between the three projects in question and I belong to two of them. I dropped my membership from the third because there was NOBODY editing there and almost all of the subject in Syraic Christianity are also cover by the other two that I belong to. In the future, as WP grows, an Eastern Orthodox workgroup, as well as a Oriental workgroup and others, can be split off. -- Secisek (talk) 05:13, 30 March 2009 (UTC)

Close?

What do we need to close this? Any other viewpoints? I think we should merge the projects and get to work. -- Secisek (talk) 04:10, 11 May 2009 (UTC)

I have left messages on the talk pages of all the other OO members who have been active recently, requesting a comment within a week if possible. It should be noted however that, even with the full nine members it has ever had, not counting the fact that two of those members have had no activity in at least a year, it has never had the ten active members suggested for a WikiProject. John Carter (talk) 18:43, 11 May 2009 (UTC)

My personal opinion is that a merge might still need the approval of anyone else in WP:OO that received the messages from John Carter, because so far, there appear to be more opinions from EO members than the others from the above discussion. That said, given that there are relatively few active members on WP:OO alone (especially as of late) I support the proposal to merge the two under a broader scope--so long as a distinction is made, at least from a historical perspective. ~ Troy (talk) 21:44, 11 May 2009 (UTC)

Proposed move Maundy Thursday to Holy Thursday

• 6 Apr 2009 – Move requested from Maundy Thursday (talk) to Holy Thursday; see discussion. --Boston (talk) 21:27, 8 April 2009 (UTC)

THEOCACNA

Please watch the edits of Theocacna2 (talk · contribs)! — RHaworth (Talk | contribs) 19:26, 13 April 2009 (UTC)