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Good. I will edit these to remove anything to imply that WMC has any POV but be absolutely sure I am only doing this as a gesture of goodwill. But to describe my contribution that the Earth's surface cannot be warmed by radiation from the cold troposphere as original research is far from correct, it is standard science and I will restore it. You may not be familiar with the ], I cannot help that but the second law is not my discovery. --] (]) 12:35, 12 May 2009 (UTC) | Good. I will edit these to remove anything to imply that WMC has any POV but be absolutely sure I am only doing this as a gesture of goodwill. But to describe my contribution that the Earth's surface cannot be warmed by radiation from the cold troposphere as original research is far from correct, it is standard science and I will restore it. You may not be familiar with the ], I cannot help that but the second law is not my discovery. --] (]) 12:35, 12 May 2009 (UTC) | ||
:Dear Damorbel, Please understand many of us were teaching the Second Law to undergraduates at University before I guess you were born. Can I suggest that you both read it up a little more carefully (in particular try to understand what an ] is) and think about other everyday things which would be impossible with your interpretation. I can raise the temperature of a solar tube on my roof from 60C to 90C using only a cold mirror to reflect sunlight. The mirror can easily warm the tube even though the tube is a lot hotter than the mirror. The second law is not violated because the presence of solar flux means it is not an ]. This is the same as the case with the troposphere. --] ] 10:06, 14 May 2009 (UTC) |
Revision as of 10:07, 14 May 2009
Welcome!
Hello, Damorbel, and welcome to Misplaced Pages! Thank you for your contributions. I hope you like the place and decide to stay. Here are some pages that you might find helpful:
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before the question. Again, welcome! William M. Connolley (talk) 21:41, 16 June 2008 (UTC)
GHE
In case you're not aware of how this works: imagine a planet with no atmosphere. R=T^4 sets the sfc temperature. Now assume a layer of atmosphere transparent to solar but opaque to IR. That atmosphere, assuming it starts at 0K, will warm up by absorbing IR from the surface. Whereupon it radiates downwards, and increases the radiation at the sfc, which then warms up. Easy, no? You can even do the maths yourself, I'm sure William M. Connolley (talk) 21:41, 16 June 2008 (UTC)
- Nice to have your contribution William, but I am not completely new here and not at all new to thermodynamics. There is a long history of ideas that depend on breaching the Second law of thermodynamics. Those wacky schemes that promise Perpetual motion, energy out of nothing etc. etc. depend fundamentally on this, If I could arrange for heat to flow from a lower temperature to a higher as in the article describing the Greenhouse effect I would not be discussing the matter with you, I would be busy getting rich! Further, should you find flaws in thermodynamics you should find clarification in Statistical mechanics
- When making statements like "Whereupon it radiates downwards, and increases the radiation at the sfc, which then warms up. Easy, no? You can even do the maths" which I adjudge a technical contribution, I would prefer you put them on the relevant talk page. Since you have views about heat flow from a lower temperature to a higher then perhaps they would be more relevant to the article on the Second law of thermodynamics.
- The tone of your writing "Easy, no? You can even do the maths" implies that you are not willing to engage the matter which is a shame as I have pointed out flaw which should be resolved not obliterated, I invite you to reverse the undo as a gesture indicating your wish to engage on the matter.--Damorbel (talk) 06:01, 17 June 2008 (UTC)
- This is funny. You've completely run away from the technical issue. If you ever wish to return to it, do let me know. I see DF has given you an answer too. The maths is here William M. Connolley (talk) 06:42, 17 June 2008 (UTC)
- Read your link. Math is rather confused like you say, but you still seem wedded to heat energy going from a cold troposphere to a warm surface. Whatever the math, it's the physics that counts.
- This is a fairly simple example of the physics. A cold particle, one with low energy, when colliding elastically in any way, mechanically or electromagnetically with a more energetic (hotter), will always gain energy from the more energetic one; the energetic particle will lose energy to the less energetic one. This is not a new idea!
- I asked you not to put this discussion here on my user talk page but on the greenhouse effect talk page. I expect you to agree to me copying it there.
- I put the talk here to avoid wasting everyones bandwidth on t:GHE. You may do what you wish with these words, provided that if you move them, you make it clear that its you thats done so, not me. I'm finished with you though - there is nothing more to say William M. Connolley (talk) 20:49, 17 June 2008 (UTC)
Speedy deletion of Damorbel
A tag has been placed on Damorbel, requesting that it be speedily deleted from Misplaced Pages. This has been done under section G1 of the criteria for speedy deletion, because the page appears to have no meaningful content or history, and the text is unsalvageably incoherent. If the page you created was a test, please use the sandbox for any other experiments you would like to do. Feel free to leave a message on my talk page if you have any questions about this.
If you think that this notice was placed here in error, you may contest the deletion by adding {{hangon}}
to the top of the page that has been nominated for deletion (just below the existing speedy deletion or "db" tag), coupled with adding a note on the talk page explaining your position, but be aware that once tagged for speedy deletion, if the article meets the criterion it may be deleted without delay. Please do not remove the speedy deletion tag yourself, but don't hesitate to add information to the article that would would render it more in conformance with Misplaced Pages's policies and guidelines. Lastly, please note that if the article does get deleted, you can contact one of these admins to request that a copy be emailed to you. --Cocomonkilla 21:20, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
Speedy deletion?
What's all this about speedy deletion? I have made a number of serious contributions notably in Greenhouse Effect http://en.wikipedia.org/Talk:Greenhouse_effect#Deficiencies and they never saw the light of day, no discussion, no reason possibly deleted by http://en.wikipedia.org/User:KimDabelsteinPetersen Abusive remarks "we've seen this kind of junk before" by http://en.wikipedia.org/User:William_M._Connolley
Why is my user name in red?
Your user page was presumably red because you had not yet edited it. This has now happened and you can use it. The "speedy deletion" issue above relates to a new article that you (presumably inadvertantly) created called "Damorbel" and which has been/will be deleted soon as it serves no purpose in "main space". Regards. Ben MacDui 21:51, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
PS Your user page is called "User:Damorbel" as opposed to "Damorbel" (the article you created by mistake). You then put the "hang on" message on "User:Damorbel" - but no-one was trying to delete your user page, just the article. Don't worry, you'll get the hang of it. Ben MacDui 21:56, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
I'm still upset about the abusive stuff from http://en.wikipedia.org/User:William_M._Connolley Connolley's experise does not appear to extend to thermodynamics, he contradicts funadamental concepts that he would have learnd in a basic course. There is nothing so basic as 2nd law of thermodynamics, he demands "reliable sources".
Here's a tip. All you need to do is this: User:William M. Connolley (with invisible square brackets at each end you can only see in "edit mode") to link to a page in Misplaced Pages - you don't have to specify the actual web page. Here's another. Users should always behave with civility to one another, (and I know nothing of your dispute), but User:William M. Connolley is quite right about the need for reliable sources. Please read WP:CITE and WP:V. Regards. Ben MacDui 19:25, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
User:Ben MacDui Thanks!
Blackbodies
I have run the blackbody equations (using the Stefan-Boltzmann law) for bodies in Earth's solar orbit. The average temperature for a rotating black body (albedo=0) is 279K, 6°C, 42°F. The average temperature for an Earth without an atmosphere is lower because it reflects (albedo=0.31) some of the incoming energy (light). A more correct temperature would be that for the moon (albedo=0.12) because it has no ice or clouds to reflect energy. It is interesting that the "standard" 254K that everyone uses does not allow for the expected albedo change that loosing an atmosphere would cause.
These are easy equations - E = (1-a) * s * T^4
One reason that you are having trouble with Talk:Greenhouse effect appears to be that you have not solved this equation for various parameters. I suggest using a spreadsheet. For instance, where does your 282K value come from?
- incorrect temperature of 255K in place of 282K because it assumes the Earth radiates like a black body
Like I said, my computation gives 279K (which may be wrong) for a perfect blackbody. Good luck. Q Science (talk) 06:39, 13 March 2009 (UTC)
Urge caution
You have now violated the three-revert rule at Talk:Greenhouse effect. Self-reverting would be a really good idea. Short Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 22:18, 14 March 2009 (UTC)
- You have now not only broken WP:3RR but done so in full knowledge of the rules. I'm going to ask you what Boris already did: Are you going to self-revert? --Kim D. Petersen (talk) 22:47, 14 March 2009 (UTC)
{{unblock|Your reason here}}
below. Vsmith (talk) 22:52, 14 March 2009 (UTC)
This user's unblock request has been reviewed by an administrator, who declined the request. Other administrators may also review this block, but should not override the decision without good reason (see the blocking policy).Damorbel (block log • active blocks • global blocks • contribs • deleted contribs • filter log • creation log • change block settings • unblock • checkuser (log))
Request reason:
I wish to be unblocked because my contributions are constantly deleted without explanation or, at best the deleter thinks they are, to put it mildly, irrelevant but gives no further explanation. As regards the policy the three revert rule is for "Since reverting in this context means undoing the actions of another editor" how can I be in breach of the rule when canceling what appears to me as vandalism of my contribution? I have asked the deleter (who I can't always identify, to consider arbitration. It seems a bit daft to ask to ask an automatic deleter for arbitration.I wish to complain about the arbitrary handeling of my contributions by ], ], ] and others unknown to me. --Damorbel (talk) 10:20, 15 March 2009 (UTC)
Decline reason:
You reverted many times over this issue despite quite a number of editors who agreed with each other that the section of discussion being removed was irrelevant to improving the article, which is the purpose of a talk page. I take this very seriously, because this disruption took place on a talk page. Misplaced Pages is not a discussion forum, and edit warring, particularly over refactoring discussions, is disruptive. And, just so you don't miss the point: WP:3RR lists "obvious vandalism" as an exception. The fact that you say "appears to me" as vandalism makes it clear that even you know this was not "obvious vandalism", so no, there is no excuse for your behavior. Mangojuice 14:00, 15 March 2009 (UTC)
If you want to make any further unblock requests, please read the guide to appealing blocks first, then use the {{unblock}} template again. If you make too many unconvincing or disruptive unblock requests, you may be prevented from editing this page until your block has expired. Do not remove this unblock review while you are blocked.
May 2009
Welcome to Misplaced Pages! I am glad to see you are interested in discussing a topic. However, as a general rule, talk pages such as Talk:Global warming controversy are for discussion related to improving the article, not general discussion about the topic. If you have specific questions about certain topics, consider visiting our reference desk and asking them there instead of on article talk pages. Thank you. Kim D. Petersen (talk) 06:19, 12 May 2009 (UTC)
KimDabelsteinPetersen, would you care to explain how discussion about POV is unrelated to improving the article on Global warming controversy? And also explain why pointing to the unscientific nature of the greenhouse effect is not an important contribution to the Global warming controversy. I suggest you clear (or acknowledge) your defective contribution here yourself, please.--Damorbel (talk) 06:56, 12 May 2009 (UTC)
- Personal comments and argumentum ad editor aren't acceptable on article talk pages, nor is using then as a forum for your pet conspiracy theory on why the Scientific opinion on climate change must be wrong, because you personally believe that the greenhouse effect doesn't exist. If you believe that WMC has done something wrong, in opposition to wikipedia rules and/or guidelines, or broken administrator ethics, then wikipedia contains forums where such complaint is valid and appreciated. Amongst others opening a user conduct RfC or raising it on the administrators noticeboard for incidences. Good luck. --Kim D. Petersen (talk) 07:23, 12 May 2009 (UTC)
Regarding your comments on Talk:Global warming controversy: Please see Misplaced Pages's no personal attacks policy. Comment on content, not on contributors. Personal attacks damage the community and deter users. Note that continued personal attacks will lead to blocks for disruption. Please stay cool and keep this in mind while editing. Thank you. Kim D. Petersen (talk) 07:14, 12 May 2009 (UTC)
Kim D. Petersen, personal attacks, where? Identifying a contribution as POV with an accompanying explanation is not a personal attack; indentifying a contribution as "unsound science" (with an accompanying explanation) is not a personal attack. In what category do you put "deleting contributions without discussion"? The proper classification is "arbitrary deletion", please stop doing it and preferably reverse those you have made. --Damorbel (talk) 07:29, 12 May 2009 (UTC)
- This and this are personal attacks/personal comments (on/about WMC), it has nothing to do with content. Your comments in the same about how the greenhouse effect (apparently) doesn't exist - is original research and unsupported by references. That is also something that talk-pages cannot be used for. Your insistence on these is what gets you warned. Talkpages are not for discussion on general theory or as a soapbox - sorry. --Kim D. Petersen (talk) 11:23, 12 May 2009 (UTC)
Good. I will edit these to remove anything to imply that WMC has any POV but be absolutely sure I am only doing this as a gesture of goodwill. But to describe my contribution that the Earth's surface cannot be warmed by radiation from the cold troposphere as original research is far from correct, it is standard science and I will restore it. You may not be familiar with the Second law of thermodynamics, I cannot help that but the second law is not my discovery. --Damorbel (talk) 12:35, 12 May 2009 (UTC)
- Dear Damorbel, Please understand many of us were teaching the Second Law to undergraduates at University before I guess you were born. Can I suggest that you both read it up a little more carefully (in particular try to understand what an isolated system is) and think about other everyday things which would be impossible with your interpretation. I can raise the temperature of a solar tube on my roof from 60C to 90C using only a cold mirror to reflect sunlight. The mirror can easily warm the tube even though the tube is a lot hotter than the mirror. The second law is not violated because the presence of solar flux means it is not an isolated system. This is the same as the case with the troposphere. --BozMo talk 10:06, 14 May 2009 (UTC)