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I should start by saying that I have had a Misplaced Pages account since 2006, but until today have not felt the need to contact anyone regarding any egregious page edits. However, when I went to the page of Clint Catalyst today it had extensive edits on it. I am a former editor of Clint's and have published more than one piece by him. I am familiar with most of the anthologies deleted by folks here.

Time and again on Catalyst's page edit history, literally hundreds of edits were made by an editor with a previously noted COI with Catalyst: Hullaballoo Wolfowitz. Wolfowitz has a history of COIs and Inappropriate Edits by Gaming The System, as well as a history of previous tendentious edits under a prior user name. However, there are so many points to bring up on the vandalism to Clint Catalyst alone; I’m afraid I’m going to be taking up a great deal of space just mentioning a few of them.

For starters, Clint Catalyst is a WGA-accredited screenwriter and television producer, so I found it curious that these credits are no longer mentioned in his entry. I specifically remember this information, as I am in the process of developing a feature-length book adaptation for which I purchased the option, and hence have been researching/interacting with writers listed in the WGA-West directory: http://www.wga.org/agency/MemAgency.asp (a simple "search" available for employers from the organization's main page--wga.org, section "If You're An Employer," fourth option in the pull-down menu: "Find a writer") provides the name and contact info for Guild-affiliated writers. I just double-checked, and Catalyst's name comes up in this search—along with dozens of articles in which he's named as a screenwriter in a google search when one types "screenwriter Clint Catalyst" in quotation marks.

That's rich. If you enter "screenwriter Clint Catalyst" into the Google search engine right now, you get exactly one hit -- to clintcatalyst.com. Google News, all dates, gives zero hits. . Hullaballoo Wolfowitz (talk) 22:30, 13 May 2009 (UTC)

It is clearly stated through research that Catalyst has co-created and co-written pilots for two separate networks, which would thereby grant him the "24 points" to qualify as an accredited screenwriter (information provided provided on the WGA website, as well as the Wiki WGA screenwriting credit system page—stated, incidentally, to make a point, NOT to go against Wiki policy and reference the site itself). I even saw a URL for Instinct (magazine) in which an interview was conducted with Catalyst during the WGA strike; the lede of this article describes him as a “striking WGA screenwriter (at press time)…”

Over the course of a month, Wolfowitz has reworded information so as to deflate its value by violating WP:ASF, completely deleted information that was approved by Wiki administrators at an earlier dates, and repeatedly hacked away at Catalyst’s page on a near-daily basis in gross violation of WP:NPOV, claiming many of Catalyst’s accolades are “not-encyclopedic.”

Also, for the sake of maintaining a neutral POV to the situation, I did notice that some of the information added in the process of these contributors violates “WP:RS,” but find it unfortunate that in the process of trying to build an encyclopedic article, Hullaballoo “bullied away” User:Tallulah13 easily by intimidation, and two other users (Megalion and jayson23) did not exactly receive helpful information upon attempting to improve the page. In fact, one might infer that the code of conduct displayed by a second editor, Bali Ultimate, has a distinct correlation to why neither User:Megalion nor User:jayson23 continued editing the article, either.

The bottom line is: “Misplaced Pages articles should rely primarily on reliable, third-party, published sources.” If one follows the timeline of Hullaballoo’s actions, he repeats the mantra “Follow WP:BLP and WP:RS” to other users; then acts contrariwise himself. There are many instances in which Hullaballoo removed a footnote under one premise, then two weeks later claimed the lack of supporting evidence—“no citation”—for the removal of other information from the page.

How is it that Hullaballoo is permitted revert information that’s been previously approved by editors and admins first in a Talk Forum? Why is it that when User:Granny Bebeb followed the LGBT link to enlist the mentorship of a volunteer in the WikiProject LGBT studies group User:Larrybob, asking specifics such as “What guidance could you give to make Clint Catalyst’s page "jump-class"? Also, how can the quality of a page be improved…etc” I can’t seem to find anything as a result except a new dispute being opened: that of “Should Works Include Anthologies”—when the addition of this section was approved by User:NeutralHomer on May 6th? This has been copied to the proper email and discussions on this site. Thomas Jefferson Crowley (talk) 20:15, 13 May 2009 (UTC)

This article grossly violates several Misplaced Pages content policies, particularly WP:RS. I'm trying to clean it up, but the response has bordered on impermissible edit warring -- particularly the reinstatement of an obviously unsourced claim with the edit summary "These are sourced and legit." If this ends up in dispute resolution, it will likely attract attention who will want to remove far more of the article than I'm ready to, if not delete it entirely. So rather than reflexive reversion, how about reviewing the content policies involved, properly sourcing whatever needs to be sourced, and get this into shape as an encyclopedic article rather than an incoherent shrine. Hullaballoo Wolfowitz (talk) 22:24, 9 April 2009 (UTC)

COI issues

User:Tallulah13, who I have an ongoing dispute with over this article, claims to have created this image. This would she accompanied the article subject on a trip from Los Angeles to Germany, and suggests far more involvement with the subject than she has admitted to. Hullaballoo Wolfowitz (talk) 22:39, 13 April 2009 (UTC)

I am not giving any more of my time to this. I only came here to post this additional related information link for anyone who might be interested... Thank you Tallulah13 (talk) 23:50, 13 April 2009 (UTC)

Wow -- what a spam-fest. It's going to take some time separating the wheat from the chaff. Most of the blog/self-sources will have to go so we can make this something useful and encyclopedic, not promotional.Bali ultimate (talk) 00:16, 14 April 2009 (UTC)

Birthday siorees

I've decided to do one unilateral move and removed all the birthday sioree names here. Beyond concerns about undue weight, a lot of names are thrown out there (some not notable, other without sources), with the sources even provided are at best gossip (not in accordance with WP:RS) and is just plain inappropriate. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 01:22, 14 April 2009 (UTC)

Apocalypse Theatre collaboration

I've removed the entire Apocalypse Theatre collaboration information here. While the sources are somewhat reliable, without Apocalypse Theatre have any notability, this starts to feel like a WP:COATRACK concern (a bootleg version, a track on MySpace and then a blatant advertisement doesn't bode well). -- Ricky81682 (talk) 01:31, 14 April 2009 (UTC)

Trendsetter

This seems like an extended exercise in name dropping ("clint attended a party with a celebrity! Omg!!") almost entirely cited to blogs, social networking sites, and commercial sites. Sticking here since it is a large chunk removed in one fell swoop, but the more i think on it, the more im convinced it doesn't belong. Should have this boiled down to actual sources and real information in a day or so. But must say this is one of the single greatest fests of bad sourcing i've ever seen.Bali ultimate (talk) 12:59, 14 April 2009 (UTC)

This article contains a list of miscellaneous information. Please relocate any relevant information into other sections or articles. (April 2009)

Buzznet has Clint Catalyst as a designated "Buzzmaker," a term the site uses for members "who are top tier." Buzzmakers are identified by a pink star on their page. Out of the entire site, only 40 users are designated with the "Buzzmaker badge."

June 13, 2006: L.A. Weekly’s ‘Style Council’ noted Clint among guests at the private/invite only show of musician Peaches as making an impression with a “to-die-for feathered hat.”

April 4, 2007: Noted in print among the fashion show "Front Row/A-Listers" at Project Runway winner Jeffrey Sebelia's standing-room-only premiere at L.A.'s elite 2121 Lofts.

July 17, 2007: Frontiers magazine runs a two page article in which Clint is deemed the 'King of What's Next'.

October 18, 2007: "Clint Catalyst, at BOXeight, is on top of the trend with a miniature top hat like the ones being sported all over London." - Lawrence K. Ho, Los Angeles Times

December 7, 2007: Nexia Holdings’ Holiday Runway event is hosted by “fashion icon” Clint Catalyst.

January 2008: Instinct magazine deemed Clint a “red-carpet-stalking fashionista in the moment before anyone else is.” ""Instinct Magazine"".

February 2008: Catalyst is a Metromix party host

March 5, 2008: Fashion Journalist Caroline Ryder deems “Clint Catalyst a queer fashion figurehead.”

May 14, 2008: Metromix magazine deems Catalyst a "Fashion Renaissance Man."

In Out.com’s 2008 coverage of ‘Power Gays,’ Clint Catalyst is listed as one of the three “Buzznet celebrities” who, “one 14-year old girl at a time beating the hype machine at its own game.” In the same article, journalist Japhy Grant goes so far as to describe him as perhaps an “unintended role model” since “At long last, for mainstream middle American tweens, the popular kids are weirdos and outcasts.”

July 29, 2008: The popular website Gay.com refers to Catalyst as a 'Scene King.' When asked to describe his inimitable personal style that has garnered this title for him even within a definition of "scene kings" on UrbanDictionary.com , Clint replied "If Isabella Blow had a male counterpart who was portrayed in a Mark Ryden painting and weasled his way out." In an interview for the Peta2/Fur Is Dead campaign, he simplified his 'look' as being focused on "Dark themes, bright colors. Hats, pomp, humor...and circumstance. A motto of mine when getting dressed-up? "Nothing exceeds like excess."

March 14, 2009: Journalist Gendy Alimurung's coverage of Gen Art's fashion week kick-off show at the historic downtown Los Angeles theater states: "There are even the requisite few celebs. Clint Catalyst, looking handsomely vampire-like, is sitting across the aisle."

References

1. ""People with the Buzzmaker badge"".
2. ""What is a Buzzmaker"".
3. http://blogs.laweekly.com/style_council/uncategorized/scientology-is-gay/
4. LA Weekly - Music - In the Kodak, in the Pink - Lina Lecaro - The Essential Online Resource for Los Angeles
5. Ryder, Caroline Vol.26/Iss.5 "The King of What's Next: Planting the Seeds of Pop Culture with L.A. Queer Icon Clint Catalyst" Frontiers Magazine Pg. 19,20
6. Lawrence K. Ho. ""Clint Catalyst, at BOXeight"". Los Angeles Times.
7. ""LA Times Reviews BOXeight Fashion Show Audiences".
8. http://www.designtaxi.com/news.jsp?id=12893&monthview=1&month=11&year=2007
9. http://citizendumondela.wordpress.com/2008/02/
10. http://citizendumondela.wordpress.com/2008/02/26/metromix-party
11. Cite error: The named reference losangeles.metromix.com was invoked but never defined (see the help page).
12. Style WhyCons | Metromix Los Angeles
13. http://www.out.com/detail.asp?page=3&id=23673
14. ^ Clint Catalyst's guide to Los Angeles | Gay.com Local Scene
15. Urban Dictionary: scene kings
16. Clint Catalyst - Fur Is Dead!
17. http://blogs.laweekly.com/style_council/beauty/fashion-week-diary-day-1-grai/

Clint Catalyst COI

I was wondering if it is now OK for someone to remove the 'conflict of interest' tag at the top of the Clint Catalyst article. Now that the page has pretty much been brought to wiki acceptable standards by User:Bali_ultimate and User:Ricky81682, among others.

I do not believe that my editing is really a concern of COI. It was just that I did not understand all of the wiki editing rules. I apologize for angering anyone. I think that User:Hullaballoo Wolfowitz was slightly out of line with the way they handled the issue, but I am over it.

I have meet Mr. Catalyst once in my life, but I do not think that that should forbid me from contributing useful information in the future. Thanks to all who have been helpful & kind.

And thanks to User:Ricky81682 for offering to help me with images and to User:Neutralhomer for being so chill and understanding. Tallulah13 (talk) 23:30, 14 April 2009 (UTC)

With the recent updates by User:Bali ultimate and User:Ricky81682, I think we can pull the COI template. I am not sure why it was necessary in the first place. - NeutralHomer • Talk • April 14, 2009 @ 23:31

I would also say thank you to User:Bali ultimate , but he/she does not seem to be very nice, he/she has deleted 2 of my neutral messages from their talk page and just ignored me. One message was actually saying thanks for the work on getting the page more acceptable & talking about the inappropriate comment they made about the photos making the page look ugly, the other message was asking why they were ignoring me. I was nothing but polite & I think it really sucks that a wiki editor would just ignore someone who was being nice and trying to learn. Tallulah13 (talk) 20:13, 16 April 2009 (UTC)

Music Collaborations

What would be an acceptable way to mention/cite his musical collaborations (such as the track he did was rapper Deadlee)? It's currently for sale on Amazon and I tried citing that link as proof, but it was removed. This track should be considered notable, even if the prior wording or citation was considered inappropriate. Granny Bebeb (talk) 23:00, 16 April 2009 (UTC)

Which specific citation do you think is the best one? Bring it here for us to look at (I'm assuming you were the earlier IP? Doesn't matter...) That something is for sale at Amazon is not generally considered a reliable source. But I'd like to look at the specific source you think is best before giving my full opinion.Bali ultimate (talk) 23:25, 16 April 2009 (UTC)

Metromix

Why is Metromix allegedly "unreliable"? It is owned by the LA Times and is its entertainment newspaper. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Granny Bebeb (talk • contribs) 14:34, 22 April 2009 (UTC)

Documentation on Clint Catalyst development deal

I have spoken directly with Mike Woodlief, Mr. Catalyst's literary agent, and have copies of deal memos between Fred Paccone (CEO, World of Wonder), Darren Stein, and ABC Family. These are background documentation which I am using as research for an article on Clint Catalyst, but as business correspondence, they would not be appropriate for inclusion in an encyclopedic article.

If there is some way to provide this documentation in a talk forum, please let me know.

jayson23 (talk) 22 April 2009 —Preceding undated comment added 03:23, 23 April 2009 (UTC).

If it isn't covered by a reliable source we're not interested and don't care who you say you've talked to.Bali ultimate (talk) 03:32, 23 April 2009 (UTC)

There's a listing of 31 episodes of ANTM as producer. That should count as a proper citation for "television producer" right? I'd edit it back myself except I'm not sure how to get the IMDB page to show up as a reference in that #a footnote at the bottom of the page. Could someone please edit that back in and add the citation to his IMDB page to document it? I don't know how to do it myself. Megalion (talk) 03:39, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

IMDB? Uhm, no.Bali ultimate (talk) 10:36, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

There are many different types of television producers. The word 'producer' was attached to Catalyst's name in the credits of 31 different episodes of ANTM. HOWEVER, a 'greater' reason (in terms of "credibility") why TELEVISION PRODUCER should be re-added to the Clint Catalyst article is: He has been credited as an Executive Producer on major network projects, as well as Co-Exec. Here's a URL for the proof of the EP title for the sake of fact-checking:

http://www.thefutoncritic.com/search.aspx?type=people&q=Clint%20Catalyst

This URL is in regard to a project covered in Variety magazine ("Fly-Over Has ABC Aboard")-- which, incidentally, has already been accepted as one of Catalyst's Wiki page footnotes.

Moreover, regardless what Hullabaloo's {or anyone else's} opinions are on the topic (citing "America's Next Top Model," etc), the simple fact remains that the Internet Movie Data Base itself lists Clint Catalyst as a Producer before any other title (actor, et al). The Variety magazine article is listed within the press articles posted on Catalyst's IMDB page, despite the fact that countless development deals are not covered in 'the trades.' In this case, however, the role of a major network (ABC) granting the series co-creator an Executive Producer credit supercedes any speculation (regarding work on "ANTM" or otherwise) by Hullabaloo. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.229.111.116 (talk) 15:12, 29 April 2009 (UTC)

Rather than complaining about the Big Bad Wolfowitz, you should work on factual accuracy and WP:BLP and WP:RS. Hullaballoo Wolfowitz (talk) 22:38, 30 April 2009 (UTC)

Watch the attitude. Are you actually claiming that the IMDB is not a reliable source? You removed an entire bibliography under a false claim of "copy and paste" along with countless other pieces of well-sourced factual information (if you were concerned about the sources, you could always add the "citation needed" tag instead of deleting information), added a blatant attack claiming that he is "best known" for a brief cameo in a news story few have likely heard of (I'm a big fan of the guy and I certainly hadn't) despite having written high sales-ranked books, and now you're taunting editors? Something tells me there's more to this situation than concern for the quality of constructive edits here. Granny Bebeb (talk) 02:56, 3 May 2009 (UTC)

Generally, speaking, no, IMDb is not reliable enough, as defined at our policies. Some discussion can be found here with a more detailed policy proposal at Misplaced Pages:Citing IMDb. Generally, alone it shouldn't be used. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 23:08, 11 May 2009 (UTC)

Allegedly unreliable/not supported?

How is the fact that he was Beth Ditto's stylist "not supported" by the page cited? Can it possibly be any more clear than "Stylist: Clint Catalyst"?

How is an ISBN number not proper citation to prove that he was a contributing author to the list of books he contributed to? One look at the book in question can prove this. If there is any argument, why not simply tag the books with "citation needed" for additional proof, rather than removing them entirely in one fell swoop?

Why is the title of "The Flyover States" being removed, in addition to the fact that he was clearly a screenwriter as supported by the cited link? For that matter, how is the IMDB "an unreliable source" in proving his production credits? Granny Bebeb (talk) 03:09, 3 May 2009 (UTC)

I second everything that user Granny Bebeb says above. The continued vandalism on the Clint Catalyst article is absolutely uncalled for. User Hullaballoo Wolfowitz has just as much of a COI with this article as he claims that I did. He should not be making all these edits. This is ridiculous!Tallulah13 (talk) 16:47, 5 May 2009 (UTC)

Suggestion: If the discussion here on specific points isn't productive (and it doesn't look like it is), I would suggest you folks consult dispute resolution services, rather than repeated notes that aren't responded to. I've found Misplaced Pages:Editor assistance to be very helpful. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 23:11, 11 May 2009 (UTC)

Contributing authorship

Ok, before we go on further with the fight over this section, let me see if I understand. Catalyst "contributed" to those short stories and books. What exactly does that mean? It doesn't look like he wrote or edited them? Did he write part of the stories? What exactly was his involvement? The style guideline at Misplaced Pages:Layout#Works says to include things he "created", so specifics would be helpful. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 08:55, 12 May 2009 (UTC)

He contributed short stories to these books (which are all anthologies). There should be no problem with it, every other author's page I've looked at on here has similar works in their bibliography sections. Granny Bebeb (talk) 09:08, 12 May 2009 (UTC)

I don't see an anthologized short stories listing for John Updike, Stephen King, Sara Paretsky, Gene Wolfe, Gabriel Garcia Marquez, Norman Mailer, Thomas Pynchon, Harlan Ellison, Joanna Russ, Ray Bradbury, or Michael Chabon. Of course, non of these authors have "bookstore" sections on their own websites where they hawk anthologies containing their short stories. Just more spam from another one of the article subject's ill-manner friends. Hullaballoo Wolfowitz (talk) 22:51, 12 May 2009 (UTC)

Hey, the attack isn't necessary. However, he does have a point. It's not common to include anthologies. However, I think I'm going to open an RFC and get some more input. But still what was his involvement with the books? Those aren't anthologies. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 02:19, 13 May 2009 (UTC)

He contributed a story he wrote to each of the books. And Hullaballoo, I just went to his website and clicked the Bookstore link for the first time to try to see what you're talking about, and I don't even see all of these books. Wouldn't SPAM be linking to places to buy them instead of simply crediting his work? And yes, I've seen anthology work credited in the bibliographies of Emanuel Xavier and Elizabeth Donald (which was a featured article recently). Granny Bebeb (talk) 03:23, 13 May 2009 (UTC)

Elizabeth Donald was not a featured article; it's barely more than a stub for a minimally notable writer. You are, as usual, saying things that aren't true. It is very unusual to see lists of individual stories in Misplaced Pages articles on any writers, even those noted in particular for their short stories. See Raymond Carver for the paradigm. Several articles do have lists for award winning short stories. But that does not apply here. The fact that you can dig out a rare exception to consensus practice does not mean that consensus has changed or should be ignored. It means the exception should be revised in line with consensus. Hullaballoo Wolfowitz (talk) 22:41, 13 May 2009 (UTC)

Unsure why this section is up for debate. Items in anthologies are perfectly legitimate works cited; they are always included in curricula vitae, have standards in major citation style formats such as MLA and APA and, perhaps more importantly, are an important and established way for younger authors and scholars to build their oeuvre. The items under "Short Stories" have appeared in anthologies, and are legitimate. These items are easily sourced, and it appears they have been, accurately. Thinkpiece (talk) 14:19, 13 May 2009 (UTC)

We have our own WP:MOS, instead of following the MLA or APA. Incidentally, what brought you to this specific discussion for some reason? -- Ricky81682 (talk) 20:13, 13 May 2009 (UTC)

I'm a former editor of Clint's and also an academic who studies digital and social media. I've been following the edits on this page, but didn't feel the need to weigh in until this section came under dispute. My post was intended to reply to the RFC on whether anthologized items belong in this section. I understand that Misplaced Pages is beholden to precedent and consensus on topics such as this—I was not suggesting that we follow MLA or APA style, but rather attempting to shed some light on what exactly anthologized items are (since it seemed that there was confusion in early posts) and some perspective on the fact that they are quite valid and important works cited, always included in standard offline academic and literary parlance.--Thinkpiece (talk) 20:34, 14 May 2009 (UTC)

RFC: Should Works include anthologies

Template:RFCbio

• Specifically in regards to this addition. While Misplaced Pages:Layout#Works says to include all works "created", it doesn't seem to follow with a number of articles, as Hullaballoo notes above. I'm also not sure since the only source seems to be the ISBN numbers as to the books themselves, a primary source rather than a secondary one (but probably the best thing available). While the general notability standards aren't relevant, I'm a little concerned when books like the Underground guide (with 23 listed contributors are claimed as "his" works. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 20:22, 13 May 2009 (UTC)

• I don't have much to add to what I've said above; consensus practice is not to list books anthologizing individual stories among a writer's works. I'd also point out that, under WP:Book sources, an ISBN alone is not adequate sourcing. "An ISBN registration, even one corresponding to a book page on a major book distributor database is not definite proof that such a book actually exists. A title may have been cancelled or postponed after the ISBN was assigned. Both ISBN and other registration have been abused in attempted hoaxes on Misplaced Pages in the past." Hullaballoo Wolfowitz (talk) 22:46, 13 May 2009 (UTC)

• • NeutralHomer approved the use of ISBN numbers as the sole book citations. However, I'll work on obtaining additional sourcing for these books. Granny Bebeb (talk) 00:59, 14 May 2009 (UTC)

Andy Warhol Museum/Uberstars exhibit

Is the blog coverage in Variety magazine sufficient for WP:RS? "The Stylephile" is a section of Variety.com (note: "Powered by Variety" in upper right-hand corner):

http://www.thestylephile.com/blog/330000033/post/130028013.html?category_id=30688

What about the editor's mention of the exhibition (on the far right hand side)? This is a literary journal, BTW--not a "fan site" http://www.vagabondagepress.com/90401/V1I11IN1.html Granny Bebeb (talk) 08:10, 14 May 2009 (UTC)

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