Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 19:06, 22 November 2005

In order to remain listed at Misplaced Pages:Requests for comment, at least two people need to show that they tried to resolve a dispute with this user and have failed. This must involve the same dispute with a single user, not different disputes or multiple users. The persons complaining must provide evidence of their efforts, and each of them must certify it by signing this page with ~~~~. If this does not happen within 48 hours of the creation of this dispute page (which was: {insert UTC timestamp with ~~~~~}), the page will be deleted. The current date and time is: 04:04, 6 January 2025 (UTC).

• (Ombudsman | talk | contributions)

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Statement of the dispute

This is a summary written by users who dispute this user's conduct. Users signing other sections ("Response" or "Outside views") should not edit the "Statement of the dispute" section.

Description

{Add summary here, but you must use the section below to certify or endorse it. Users who edit or endorse this summary should not edit the other summaries, other than to endorse them.}

Ombudsman (talk · contribs) has been campaigning the inclusion of external links to a website containing conspiracy theories, speculative material and other issues related to vaccines and vaccination. These links were originally added by an anon (86.128.123.85 (talk · contribs)) on 30 October, and after my removal Ombudsman rapidly restored most of them (diffs below). This has led to edit warring on a number of pages. I have requested explanation and discussion on his talk page, to which I received no response.

Ombudsman argues in edit summaries that inclusion of the link falls under NPOV. After all, all views should be represented. I dispute external links fall under the aegis of NPOV (they never have, sadly), and even if they did the views on this website are utterly fringe and appear to have little support, therefore not requiring coverage on this project. JFW | T@lk 22:53, 2 November 2005 (UTC)

This is part of a long running campaign to push his POV on vaccines.Geni 12:37, 3 November 2005 (UTC)

Evidence of disputed behavior

(Provide diffs. Links to entire articles aren't helpful unless the editor created the entire article. Edit histories also aren't helpful as they change as new edits are performed.)

1. diff reinsertion of link on Shaken baby syndrome
2. diff ditto on vaccination
3. diff idem on chickenpox

Applicable policies

{list the policies that apply to the disputed conduct}

1. WP:NPOV
2. WP:POINT

Evidence of trying and failing to resolve the dispute

(provide diffs and links)

1. diff my message on his talkpage 31 Oct
2. diff idem 2 Nov
3. diff further 2 Nov
4. attempts to negotiate on talk page meet with no response.

Users certifying the basis for this dispute

{Users who tried and failed to resolve the dispute}

(sign with ~~~~)

1. JFW | T@lk 22:53, 2 November 2005 (UTC)
2. Geni 12:41, 3 November 2005 (UTC)

Other users who endorse this summary

(sign with ~~~~)

Response

This is a summary written by the user whose conduct is disputed, or by other users who think that the dispute is unjustified and that the above summary is biased or incomplete. Users signing other sections ("Statement of the dispute" and "Outside Views") should not edit the "Response" section.

Complainant took it upon himself to delete a series of Whale.to links added to various articles by an anon. After some of the links were restored, with relatively restrained edit summaries, complainant escalated abrasive rhetoric, disparaging this invaluable archival resource in a manner less than conducive to constructive dialog. After a longer, restrained response was provided to the complainant at Talk:Shaken baby syndrome, complainant further escalated the matter with this RfC appeal, rather than pursuing constructive dialog. This RfC seems to be an over reaction to what is little more than content dispute, though the overwrought attacks on the merits of Whale.to do need to be addressed somehow.

{Add summary here, but you must use the endorsement section below to sign. Users who edit or endorse this summary should not edit the other summaries.}

1. Ombudsman 23:45, 2 November 2005 (UTC)

Outside view by John

I maintain the whale.to website, and posted the disputed links. Jfdwolff is a medical doctor, so a vaccinator. May I suggest that he is biased regarding vaccination. Whale.to has the largest internet database of vaccine documents, so it is hardly fringe, and most of those documents have been written by medical doctors or scientists!! Just the archive on smallpox has, on-line, around 30 books or booklets on vaccination. Also listed are 50 or so books written on vaccination, most of which you will not find in any school, bookshop or library. Jfdwolff is carrying on that tradition of suppressing vaccine critics that has gone on for over 100 years, the most notable and relevant being Dr Creighton, one of the most notable medical men of his era, who was asked to write on vaccination for the Encyclopedia Brittannica, around 1910. When he looked into it he found he was against it--needless to say he article made one edition but was taken out on the next one! http://www.whale.to/v/creighton.html It seems that tradition is being upheld here by a medical man!

The section on shaken baby syndrome contains a large number of documents, many written by medical doctors, eg Dr Archie Kalokerinos MD, Dr Yazbak MD, and scientist Viera Scheibner, who have well documented evidence linking vaccination to SBS. These views need to be made available so people can make their own mind up, rather than have their mind made up for them by restricting the information available to them. Whale.to gets 1 million hits a year, which would not be considered a fringe website, and documents the opinions of over 70 health professionals (hundreds if you include smallpox vaccine from the 19th century), most of them medical doctors reared on vaccination http://www.whale.to/v/critics1.html

On measles whale.to has the largest database on alternative medicine views on measles. Homeopathy, naturopathy, and nutritional or orthomolecular medicine which, incidentaly, is medicine practised exclusively by medical doctors.

Even the link to whale.to in the "sites critical to vaccination" has been removed http://en.wikipedia.org/Vaccination which is an obvious effort at suppression.

The section "The opposing view of vaccines" was obviously written by a pro-vaccinator, I should know http://en.wikipedia.org/Vaccine_controversy --- john ~~~~

Users who endorse this summary (sign with ~~~~):

1. 86.128.207.196 (talk · contribs)

Outside view by McClenon

This is an article content dispute, not a user conduct dispute. I see no allegation of any improper user conduct by Ombudsman other than having a fringe view and trying to insert it into article links. For instance, there is no allegation of personal attacks, insulting edit summaries, or 3RR violations (because there have been no personal attacks, insults, or 3RR violations).

On the one hand, I agree with the certifiers that the Whale.to web site appears to be a fringe web site promoting scare theories. On the other hand, I have not seen any attempt by the certifiers to try to resolve this content dispute by discussion or consensus.

I suggest that the certifiers of this RfC instead post an article content RfC for consensus on whether the link is considered encyclopedic. My opinion is that it is not, but I am only one editor.

Users who endorse this summary (sign with ~~~~):

1. Robert McClenon 19:49, 3 November 2005 (UTC)
2. FRS 21:04, 3 November 2005 (UTC)--IMO, adding links to sites with out-of-mainstream views, as long as the links are not totally off topic, is a convenient way to make readers aware of and able to access those views without overburdening the article with long discourse about the entire range of views on the topic.
3. InvictaHOG 21:55, 3 November 2005 (UTC) I think that an RfC to vote on the content makes more sense.
4. VileRage (Talk|Cont) 10:25, 4 November 2005 (UTC)
5. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 17:10, 4 November 2005 (UTC)
6. Jacqui 21:39, 9 November 2005 (UTC)
7. I see this forming the basis of an important content RfC. --bainer (talk) 12:13, 10 November 2005 (UTC)
8. --InShaneee 20:09, 14 November 2005 (UTC)

Outside view by TenOfAllTrades

Ombudsman has espoused something of a fringe view on the cause of autism, and has been campaigning against vaccination in general. He is certainly entitled to his viewpoint, and in most of the articles he edits some mention of the anti-vaccination perspective is appropriate. (Whether the science is good or not, there's certainly a social and political impact.)

In general his writing is good but biased; this is true of many of our editors and I don't believe it reaches the level of being a user conduct issue. Per Robert McClenon's view above, the validity or usefulness of an external source is best discussed in an article content RFC, rather than a user conduct RFC.

Ombudsman does need to be careful with his use of the word 'censorship' and similar sorts of accusations in his edit summaries. WP:CIV, WP:AGF, and all that. To his credit, the tone of his objections has shown improvement—as far as I know, he hasn't accused anyone of being a pharmaceutical industry 'shill' for some time.

Users who endorse this summary (sign with ~~~~):

1. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 17:20, 4 November 2005 (UTC)
2. JFW | T@lk 08:46, 6 November 2005 (UTC)

Outside view by 81.111.172.198

This is a summary written by users not directly involved with the dispute but who would like to add an outside view of the dispute. Users editing other sections ("Statement of the dispute" and "Response") should not edit the "Outside Views" section, except to endorse an outside view.

Not only should it be valid to include references to the material on the whale.to website, I believe there should be a Wiki page devoted to it. It is an international phenomenon in itself and perhaps Ombudsman might assist in starting that off.

The site is a remarkable compendium of information and knowledge and it is not judgmental either. It brings together all kinds of information from some very learned sources but does very little more. There is little or no editorial or attempt to persuade. It is commendable and adds greatly to the source of human knowledge. Because of the actions of a few, it is unlikely Misplaced Pages will be ever emulate it.

The use of invalid arguments from Jfdwolff such as that 1,000,000 hits a year for the whale.to site is trivial serves to show in their proper context the other invalid arguments advanced in similar vein above and elsewhere.

Further, Users like Jfdwolff, Nunh-huh, Geni and some others have been following a practice of editing pages describing routine mild childhood illnesses to make the illnesses appear serious when they are not. They label as "anti-vaccinators" anyone, like myself, a parent who sought accurate information on risks of childhood diseases and who tries to edit the relevant pages to make them accurate.

This process can be seen now on the mumps page.

Name-calling such as "anti-vaccinator" is immature and is not to be expected from a professional medical doctor, which is what I understand Jfdwolff is. It is also an illogical form of argument to dismiss valid arguments with incorrect labelling and name calling instead of proper dialogue and debate.

A brief view of some of Nunh-huh's edits and the comments attached show how aggressive and insulting her approach is and that it is worse yet than Jfdwolf's.

Mumps is second to chickenpox as one of the mildest of all routine childhood diseases. However, JfDwolff tries to harp on about mumps causing sterility in the first paragraphs instead of a more accurate description and when sterility is an outcome so unbelieveably rare that there are no accurate figures to document it. She further fails to provide any adequate explanation for her deletion of a perfectly proper edit which provided balance to an otherwise wholly misleading Wiki page. Instead she demands an explanation of what is wrong with what she has added. That appears to be a perverse approach.

There is an agenda here and it is to deny accurate information on childhood disease risks to parents and prevent anyone correcting the inaccuracies.

I do not believe the Dr James le Fanu of the Telegraph is an "anti-vaccinator" but he has questioned in the Telegraph why we vaccinate against mumps. This was done in the context of the "epidemics" of mumps at colleges and universities. These "epidemics" have occurred from the very process of introducing vaccination which has transferred the incidence of the illness from children where it is harmless to adults who either did not gain lifetime immunity from the natural disease or for whom the mumps component of MMR just did not work or for whom the shorter term immunity of vaccination may have just worn off.

In summary, parents who turn to Misplaced Pages for information on childhood illnesses are being denied proper and accurate information.

Jfdwolf, Nunh-huh, Geni and others should stop pursuing their own agenda as it damages the reputation of Misplaced Pages. 81.111.172.198 14:20, 22 November 2005 (UTC)

Users who endorse this summary (sign with ~~~~):

A short response. Your assertions actually have very little to do with the issue under discussion, namely whether Ombudsman was right to reinsert links to a site known to contain an indiscriminate collection of information, part of which in violation of copyrights. It has very little to do with the fact that I'm a doctor, a vaccinator, and a mumps alarmist.

"Mumps is second to chickenpox as one of the mildest of all routine childhood diseases." Have you ever looked after a child with chickenpox? I am not suggesting all children should be vaccinated against varicella zoster, but have you thought about this? JFW | T@lk 14:55, 22 November 2005 (UTC)

Outside view by 81.111.172.198 - INAPPROPRIATE BEHAVIOUR BY JFDWOLF

This is a summary written by users not directly involved with the dispute but who would like to add an outside view of the dispute. Users editing other sections ("Statement of the dispute" and "Response") should not edit the "Outside Views" section, except to endorse an outside view.

This RfC was initiated by Jfdwolff alleging inappropriately as it turns out that Ombudsman's conduct was inappropriate.

However, it seems Jfdwolff has been contravening clearly stated Misplaced Pages directions concerning her own conduct and she clearly is not prepared to comply with acceptable Misplaced Pages conduct.

It is not Ombudsman's conduct which is at fault but Jfdwolff's.

In particular, it is stated very clearly in each summary section for "Outside Views" that "This is a summary written by users not directly involved with the dispute but who would like to add an outside view of the dispute. Users editing other sections ("Statement of the dispute" and "Response") should not edit the "Outside Views" section, except to endorse an outside view."

I now require that Jfdwolff deletes the edit she has made to the summary I added to this RfC.

She has inappropriately edited two "Outside Views" on this page. In those she has added inappropriate comments. She has done this in an inappropriate manner and inappropriately contrary to the express terms of the rubric prefacing the template for each "Outside View".

Accordingly, she should also delete the other edits as they are also not endorsements of an "Outside View". If she wishes to engage in a dialogue with a Wiki User who has posted an "Outside View", she should kindly do it either on her own talk page or on the talk page of the User concerned.

It is her attitude and behaviour which is inappropriate and clearly not that of Ombudsman. This is now logged here.

81.111.172.198 18:04, 22 November 2005 (UTC)

I am allowed to respond to allegations made about myself, thank you very much. But you have still not said anything about the case actually under discussion here. In fact, I should have removed all your comments for discussion on the talk page. JFW | T@lk 18:12, 22 November 2005 (UTC)

Discussion

All signed comments and talk not related to a vote or endorsement, should be directed to this page's discussion page. Discussion should not be added below. Discussion should be posted on the talk page. Threaded replies to another user's vote, endorsement, evidence, response, or comment should be posted to the talk page.

Closure

• It is unclear if the comment left by Geni to 'show' he tried to help resolve the complainant's problem is valid. It neither addresses the complainant or the complainant's content dispute problem. Since neither of the signers themselves engaged in overtly offensive 'behaviour', and lacking adequate evidence of attempts at resolution (little time elapsed between initial complaint and RfC, the complainant's problem has only been evidenced on, perhaps, one or two days prior) this matter should be closed and converted into an RfC on Whale.to. Ombudsman 05:05, 7 November 2005 (UTC)