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Military history: British / European Start‑class

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Military history of Britain was the UK Collaboration of the Fortnight for the fortnight starting on October 31, 2004. For details on improvements made to the article, see Past Collaborations and History

ordering

Sugges ordering this:

• Prehistoric Britain
• Roman Britain
• Mediæval Britain
• Early Modern Britain
• Modern Britain

Like the history colum on the right? Or, it might be worth combining Roman with pre-Roman as there doesn't seem to be much there, and spliting medieval, where there's loads? We could then have more in depth subpages for each of those? Joe D (t) 13:29, 1 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Yes - I suggest we start with 4 sections (Pre-Roman and Roman; Mediaeval; Early Modern and Modern) and sub-divide them when the text gets large enough to warrant it. We may need, for example, Hundred Years' War, Wars of the Roses, Napoleonic Wars, Wars of Empire, WWI and WWII, but let's see what we get. Some of the lists will need to be floated off to new pages - e.g. List of British wars/List of British battles; List of British military alliances; List of British military fortifications. -- ALoan (Talk) 15:08, 1 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Sudan

I was working on wikifing some poetry written by Ruyard Kipling with lots of British Imperial military references. All the campaigns I have looked for except the Sudanese are listed on theis page. The first Expeditionary Force against the Mahdist Jihad, 1882-85 and the later second Expeditionary Force employed in the Reconquest of the Soudan, 1886-89. The only mention I find of this at all is in the article on Muhammad Ahmad. If anyone can make a proper article on the Sudan campaigns please let me know on my talk page so I can update the poetry on Wikisource. Thank you --BirgitteSB (Talk) 20:18, 6 November 2005 (UTC)

Auld Alliance

I've largely rewritten the section on the Franco-Scottish alliance to eliminate factual errors and grammatical solecisms. The errors in point of fact are;

1. The first formal written treaty between France and Scotland was concluded in October 1295. There were never any arrangements for mutual defence between the two nations prior to this date. William the Lion's involvement in the dispute between Henry II and Louis VII was inspired by his attempt to lay claim to Northumberland. This, incidentally, does not date to 1165.

2. Norway was never part of the Auld Alliance. A thing can only become 'auld'-old-with the passage of time. By the time the Scots started to refer to the treaty with France in such terms any past associations with Norway were long forgotten.

3. The Hundred Years War-which began in 1337 not 1336-had nothing at all to do with Philip's aid for Scotland in the early 1330s. David II did not 'flee' to France-he was only a child-but was taken there by the Earl of Moray in 1334 at the invitation of King Philip. David was not 'deposed' by Edward III; he had been effectively displaced in 1332 by Edward Balliol. Edward later recognised Balliol as the rightful king of Scotland, though no mention was ever made of David Bruce.

4. The Auld Alliance as such did not start the First War of Independence, or can 'be said to have inflamed' the English invasion of Scotland, because the full terms of the treaty were not known to them in the spring of 1296.. Edward I invaded because John Balliol was in breach of feudal law, refusing to send troops to join the English army.

5. David invaded England to aid his ally in 1346; but it was very much in his own 'interests', not those of King Philip.

6. The very minor Battle of Bauge can hardly be referred to as a 'crushing' defeat for the English.

7. The Treaty of Edinburgh ended the alliance because by this time France was perceived as the greater threat to Scottish liberty. Scotland most definitely did not 'consider itself Protestant' by this treaty, which deals with diplomatic and military issues. Scotland became formally Protestant by act of Parliament in the same year. Rcpaterson 23:59, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

Turkish War of Independence.

Why on earth was this included in Britain's modern conflicts??? It suggests that the country actually fought against the forces of Kemal Pasha, which is most assuredly not the case. The closest the two countries came to open conflict was during the Chanak crisis. Rcpaterson 00:10, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

Additional Amendments

The other errors and misconceptions I've identified here are as follows;

1. It is a myth to say that 1066 was the last successful invasion of England by a foreign force. The country has been invaded-sucessfully-too many times to list in detail. The last such invasion was the arrival of William of Orange in 1688.

2. The First War of Scottish Independence concluded in 1328 with the Treaty of Northampton, not 1306.

3. There was no Anglo-Scottish war from 1513 to 1547, but two quite distinct phases of warfare, the first in 1513 with a possible extension to 1514; and the second from 1544 to 1551.

4. As with the above there was no fifty year Jacobite Rebellion, as the dating given suggested. There are, rather, four seperate and quite distinct phases of rebellion-1689-1691; 1715-16; 1719; 1745-46.

5. Scotland was not part of the Franco-Venetian alliance. Her involvement in the War of the League of Cambrai was quite incidental. James IV's invasion of England in 1513 was in response to an appeal from France, under attack by Henry VIII.

6. The Triple Entente of 1908 was not an alliance and it did not bring Britain into the First World War. British involvement was in reaction to the Germany's invasion of Belgium, a breach of the 1839 Treaty of London.

Finally I have serious reservations about the Anglo-Portuguese alliance still being 'in force.' Did British use of the Azores in 1982 really have anything to do with this alliance? I would also be pleased to know in what way Portugal aided her ally during the Second World War? Rcpaterson 01:11, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

Germany

Shouldn't all the pre-German Wars of Reunification references to Germany be Prussia? --Narson 21:32, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

You are quite right to point out that there is no 'Germany' as such until the late ninteenth century. The term is probably being used here in a collective sense; for though Prussia was the chief German power in the various conflicts mentioned, they also involved-to a greater or lesser extent-some of the more minor states like Bavaria, Hanover and Saxony. Rcpaterson 22:48, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

Though the small nations didn't really fight in any meaningful sense, as shown by their absense in any of the descriptions on Misplaced Pages. Same way we don't include the Kingdom of Naples in the napoleonic wars. --Narson 09:53, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

British military??

why British? what about England's own history not the union? Also did you noticed the British military and French military articles are totally different, one is a (non-neutral) text the other is made of lists... the English version about French military is twice the size of the French version while this British article here in the English version is just a list. The French army's English article is just a stub while its history article is a super long article... something's wrong here. Shame On You 04:49, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

Stonehenge

Stonehenge image has absolutely nothing to do with British military history. So what if its part of British history; you could put up a picture of a British destroyer or perhaps a picture of Richard the Lionheart. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 160.227.129.254 (talk) 17:45, 28 February 2007 (UTC).

United Kingdom and Chile Alliance

Chile colaborated with british forces in the 1982 Falklands War. It must be in the Alliance section. (84.76.37.212 23:46, 27 August 2007 (UTC))

name change?

I've just come across this article - I'm immediately surprised by it because I expected the military history of the last few hundred years (the length of time the United Kingdom has existed) but instead this article goes back way before the creation of the UK. Can I suggest a name change to 'British military history'? Either than or we should cut the article down to military history during the period the United Kingdom has existed. Cheers Fishiehelper2 (talk) 15:05, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

This name is almost like a reductio ad absurdum against changing the name. I mean, what the hell is this title?!

It is convention that articles are organised by current country. Whilst it is perhaps encyclopaedic to have other articles (say, about 'Military history of south Asia', 'Military history of the Middle East', 'Military history of Prussia', etc) that defy current country organisation, the article for the country's history itself should cover all history for that territory, including prior to the formation of the relative state (in this case, in 1801).

This is the convention elsewhere. General history articles of that ilk abound. Military histories exist of Germany, Romania, Italy, Croatia, United States, Canada, South Africa, Zimbabwe, India, etc that go back beyond the formation of the current state. 'Military history of the United Kingdom' is an appropriate name.

An even better solution would be to rename this 'Military history of the British Isles', and then create a new article focused on the United Kingdom (i.e. since 1801). However, until the latter is done, I suggest that the former is not, as (as stated above) the country categorisation is primary. Bastin 01:39, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

Hi there. So "Military histories exist of Germany, Romania, Italy, Croatia, United States, Canada, South Africa, Zimbabwe, India, etc that go back beyond the formation of the current state". Well I just checked United States and the opening line of the article states, "The military history of the United States spans a period of over two centuries." I thought the USA was perhaps a good example to check as it is similar to the UK in being a political union with a clear starting point when the 13 states first 'got together'. (The UK, similarly, started when two countries - Scotland and England - joined in political union in 1707, a political entity later joined by Ireland in 1801 though most of Ireland later left the Union in 1922.) Cheers Fishiehelper2 (talk) 15:58, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

You clearly did not check that article thoroughly enough. It starts with 'over two centuries' - which means just that: over two centuries. That is, by the most stringent definition, it is at least two centuries old. Then, the article precedes to establish that, under its definition, it is considerably longer, as it covers 'Colonial Wars' and the American Revolutionary War, both before independence (that is, the former entirely and the latter partly). If you want to copy that article, you can put in the introduction 'The military history of the United Kingdom spans a period of over two centuries', then explain that whilst the country was created in 1801, the military history of its predecessors would receive a treatment: which, of course, you'd then give it.

To clarify, the United Kingdom was founded in 1801. The Kingdom of Great Britain (founded in 1707) was a predecessor country, just as the Kingdom of Ireland was. Bastin 18:04, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

Hi there, and thanks for the reply. Though we may disagree about the date the UK was formed, I think we agree that some degree of prior information may be relevant. However, I wouldn't expect to read about some battle that took place in the 1300's 'in the USA' because the USA didn't exist then! By the way, I notice that the military history of Israel only deals with the last century - what about all the battles that happened over previous centuries? Cheers Fishiehelper2 (talk) 18:31, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

The absence in the case of Israel is almost certainly due to the fact that Israel is a relatively contentious issue. There are additional complicating factors, too; were you to call it 'Military history of the peoples of Israel', you'd find that most peoples of Israel have immigrated over the past century, and that millions have left Israel during the same period. It is safe to assume that Israel is in a tiny minority, and doesn't represent the convention that is usually applied.

Taking a more comprehensive look, it becomes obvious what the convention is. Amongst European countries:

Covers pre-establishment history: Armenia, Austria*, Croatia, Denmark, Finland, France, Germany, Greece, Hungary, Italy, Netherlands, Poland, Portugal, Romania, Serbia, Slovenia, Spain, Sweden

Covers only since establishment: Switzerland, Republic of Macedonia*, Turkey

I suggest that 18 to 3 is a relatively conclusive result. Bastin 18:51, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

Yes, I concede the majority do follow the pattern you describe, but the UK is quite unique in that it was formed by the political union of two previously independent countries. (I can't think of other examples of political unions like the UK - if you can, let me know and it will be interesting to see what it says in that country's article.) Cheers Fishiehelper2 (talk) 20:51, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

(outdent)Just to reopen this topic for a different reason. I suggest changing the title to "Military history of the people of Britain" given that this is what this article appears to be about. Any comments? --HighKing (talk) 20:03, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

It includes the military history of peoples from across the British Isles, including Ireland. The name is fine. LemonMonday (talk) 12:16, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

I disagree. It is history from a British perspective only, and is written with the modern UK of GB & NI in mind. The British Isles is not a political term, and it is inappropriate to use the term to describe warfare - especially given that Ireland is a neutral country and has not participated in many of the conflicts discussed in the article. I'll file a move request. --HighKing (talk) 12:26, 14 May 2009 (UTC)

Requested move

Support - The current article title is misleading and incorrect - the article only deals with military history from a British perspective and was moved late last year from a more correct title (and one more in keeping with standard[REDACTED] naming of articles on this subject). There was never any military history of the British Isles, and there were never any military actions on behalf of the British Isles. This is a request to move the current article back to Military history of the United Kingdom. --HighKing (talk) 12:42, 14 May 2009 (UTC)

Outside view here: Just the term people, seems to be a sort of POV that should be avoided. The people of? Why not just say of "such and such a place". Hence, I think HighKing has a valid point for this. --CyclePat (talk) 17:38, 14 May 2009 (UTC)

But, on the other hand, why not then "Military history of the British Isles"? I haven't read the article... but if the focus is on the British Isles, then please consider my afformentioned suggestion. If not please, consider HighKing's request to change it to Military history of the United Kingdom. That's my 10 cents! --CyclePat (talk) 17:42, 14 May 2009 (UTC)

Hi, thank you for responding and kicking off a discussion. The main reason is because the British Isles doesn't have any military history - hence the very contrived title of "people of the British Isles". And I'm still unsure why the name was changed (without consensus) in the first place! --HighKing (talk) 20:31, 14 May 2009 (UTC)

No, the main reason is that HighKing hates the term British Isles. He has a long history of trying to rid Misplaced Pages of it. 82.3.65.106 (talk) 21:03, 14 May 2009 (UTC)

Funny how it's always the anon IP editors that take the cheap shots.... --HighKing (talk) 00:04, 15 May 2009 (UTC)

Anyways, maybe there is a precedent to be learned from the articles Military history of the Soviet Union and Military History of Russia. Or, if you look at the articles Russia and USSR you will notice the difference in territory. Furthermore, I think someone already suggested removing, just look in the above other section, "of the peoples", which would give "Military history of the British Isles". Misplaced Pages, also has an article on the British Isles which explains quite clearly in the introduction the contreversy. Furthermore, correct me if I'm wrong, but there is even article on the British Isles naming dispute. The name we suggest here should not limit the scope of the article so as to remove this important contreversy... unless of course this article is actually a spin-out Wp:CFORK which only takes into consideration "the time" and the POV of which the geographical location was named "British Isles". This does not appear to be the case. Hence, I highly recommend not doing this per WP:NPOV. So, now that I've set a few rules... What is the current content of the article? Ex. Do we talk about the fact that "the British Isles were all, with the exception of the Channel Islands and the Isle of Man, included in the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland until 1922.". If so, then it may be appropriate to go according to HighKings request. No, matter the case, there most likely needs to be an explanation within this article which explains the controversy and why the article is titled as is. --CyclePat (talk) 02:40, 15 May 2009 (UTC)

Hi CyclePat - the main question we should ask about the title is "Is the title accurate?". Currently, it is not. It's very noteworthy that when the article was renamed in September 2007 *without consensus (see above discussion)*, it was named Military history of the peoples of Britain (which redirects here) and since then, here are the diffs. As you can see, nothing of substance has changed. Before that name move, it was called Military history of the island of Britain (which redirects here) in April 2008, and Military history of the United Kingdom (a content fork) before that. In Feb 2007, it was simply British military history - which BTW (surprise surprise!_ redirects to this article! It's obvious that the term "British Isles" is being used synonomously to mean "British".

The simple fact is that the term British Isles is being used incorrectly in this context - in fact very mischeviously, and against agreement. Misplaced Pages states that it is a geographic term, but in the context of military history, it is clearly being used as a geopolitical term. This article is clearly written as British Military history, as the article history shows. Using the term British Isles in the title implies that all constituent parts acted in concert. Never happened.

The article does not list all of the conflicts that took part within the geographic region - which is what I would expect an article with this title to do. Instead it lists the wars waged by Britain. It has a link to the "British Army Portal". Clearly, this article has nothing to do with the British Isles, and the title should be either moved back to British military history or to Military history of the British people, or more properly to Military history of the United Kingdom in line with other articles (again, refer to previous discussion above). --HighKing (talk) 10:53, 15 May 2009 (UTC)

This article is about the peoples of the British Isles - English, Irish, Scots and Welsh - and their shared military history. It is only in comparatively recent times that Ireland has become independent and for most of the period in consideration here, the Irishmen have fought alongside their brothers from the other home nations. This article includes significant material about conflicts in Ireland; Cromwellian conquest of Ireland, Battle of the Boyne, Irish Rebellion, Williamite war in Ireland and the Easter Rising, to name but a few. The people of the British Isles have a common heritage and history. It is appropriate that one aspect of that history - military history - should be gathered together in this article. Ireland's current neutrality is a complete red herring regarding a potential move, but maybe the fact should be mentioned in the article. Also, put a portal in for Irish military issues; in other words, expand the article where needed. I wholeheartedly reject the proposed move. LemonMonday Talk 14:02, 15 May 2009 (UTC)

Your response fails to address most of the point raised. The mentions of the "conflicts in Ireland" are all written from a British military conquest point of view. You say that the article should be expanded but you fail to state the reasons why an article with this title makes any sense from a military point of view.... The British Isles have never been united from a military point of view. You state that the article is about the "peoples of the British Isles" - no it's not, it's actually about the British. You say that for most of the time, Irishmen fought alongside their brothers from the other home nations. I don't know what planet you're from, but in most history books it's clear that for most of the time, there was no such thing as "home nations", and the Irish were fighting the English. --HighKing (talk) 14:17, 15 May 2009 (UTC)

Support the move. The whole "British Isles" thing is so patently politically contrived and agenda-driven that the only wonder is that it is tolerated in the name of any article considering Misplaced Pages's NPOV policy. This recent upsurge in creating "British Isles" articles is simply the British far-right trying to push their views. 194.125.113.219 (talk) 16:10, 15 May 2009 (UTC)

Leaving aside the tone and content of your response, and the multiple policy breaches therein, Anon IP editors opinions are rarely counted for these purposes, as it's too easy to game the system. If you want your opinion to be counted, please create a login. Thank you. --HighKing (talk) 17:11, 15 May 2009 (UTC)

The comments by User:LemonMonday about the "shared military history" of these supposedly "British Isles" and "It is only in comparatively recent times that Ireland has become independent and for most of the period in consideration here, the Irishmen have fought alongside their brothers from the other home nations" confirm, if any confirmation was needed, the myths and ahistorical nonsense that is behind use of this. Where was Ireland's "shared military history" when Cromwell came and dispossessed the overwhelming majority of us native Irish from our land and gave it to British settler-colonialists? Funny idea of "shared military history" indeed. As for Irishmen fighting alongside their "brothers" in something British nationalists term the "home nations", would that include the countless Irish who fought for Spain, France, Argentina and numerous other nations? Or does that just not fit into the pseudo-history which the "British Isles" people want to propagate here? 213.202.162.111 (talk) 19:27, 15 May 2009 (UTC)

Oppose. It is clear from the comments of those supporting this move, especially the anonymous editors, that the real motive is political. It manifests itself here as a hatred of all things British. This is a clear attempt to subvert the concept of the British Isles. The article is a reasonable summary of the military topics that, historically at least, were common across the islands. The situation is of course different today concerning Ireland's neutrality but as an historical article, or more precisely as a large disambiguation to related articles, I believe the current name to be the most appropriate. Mister Flash (talk) 20:46, 15 May 2009 (UTC)

• Ad hominem attacks against other editors are best ignored. It is always the sign of a weak argument to resort to such tactics, but if continued it is always best to remind editors to avoid such. See "Behavior that is unacceptable" purple (talk) 00:22, 17 May 2009 (UTC)

Please observe policy, especially WP:AGF. Please comment on the discussion, not on your (incorrect) opinion on political motivation. You'll just bait the trolls.

You make the point that the article is a reasonable summary of military topics common across the islands. I disagree. All of the topics are British military actions that may have inadvertently included elements of other parts of the British Isles, but equally have inadvertently included many parts outside the British Isles. Nearly all sections only include Britain. For example the Viking section fails to include any of the important Irish battles such as the Battle of Clontarf. There is nothing in this article that excludes Britain. I've removed your token gesture of inclusion of the Irish Defense Forces, at least until this discussion is resolved, and until you can justify the inclusion of the link based on military action. --HighKing (talk) 01:18, 16 May 2009 (UTC)

Some points to support the argument:

• The inclusion of the Union Jack on this Talk page
• The headings used in the article - for example
• List of Fortifications in the British Isles only mentions those in the UK
• List of Castles makes the point of only listing castles in the UK - England, Scotland, Wales, Northern Ireland. Fails to note castles in Ireland, Isles of Man, etc.

• List of British military institutions
• List of British military alliances
• The See Also section is all British

--HighKing (talk) 01:36, 16 May 2009 (UTC)

HighKing, instead of whingeing about how the island of Ireland is not well represented in this article why don't you simply add the content. You mention Battle of Clontarf, it took me all of ten seconds to add it. I acknowledge that Ireland is underrepresented here, as is the case in many similar articles, but the answer is to add content, not to move the page. Also, I've put Irish Defence Forces back in. Don't confuse military action with military history. Much of the history is concerned with "action" but the terms are not interchangable. Mister Flash (talk) 08:59, 16 May 2009 (UTC)

Mister Flash, instead of childish name-calling, why don't you actually *read* the argument put forward. Not only is this article a blatent piece of using British Isles inappropriately, but there should not be an article on military history of the peoples of the British Isles in the first place, because it makes absolutely no sense. Attempting to list other stuff into the article just shows how pathetic the article is, and how pathetic the attempts to make it relevant.

• Oppose British Isles would cover Ireland, while UK wouldn't (well, not the current UK), and history prior to the creation of the UK also appears in this article. 76.66.202.139 (talk) 03:52, 16 May 2009 (UTC)

y

• Support Pretty much all of the content has to do with the United Kingdom and I don't see why the military history of a geographical area should be linked together or even notable. Military History of Scandinavia doesn't exist nor does Military History of the Iberian Peninsula. However there are many individual articles about the military history of countries. This article should do the same. There's no reason not to.MITH 12:22, 16 May 2009 (UTC)

• Oppose There's common history of the peoples of these islands, including military history. It's a good article with its present name. MidnightBlue (Talk) 12:56, 16 May 2009 (UTC)

Really? Please list the "common history" relevant to military action. --HighKing (talk) 20:32, 16 May 2009 (UTC)

Everything prior to 6 December 1922, and absolutely everything prior to 1801. MidnightBlue (Talk) 22:59, 16 May 2009 (UTC)

• Support I guess user:Setanta747 was up to some of his typical pov-motivated editing when he made the move. The page should go back to its original name. purple (talk) 23:04, 16 May 2009 (UTC)

• Oppose per MidnightBlue. "We" invaded them, "they" invaded us, others invaded both of us and so on. Parts of one island got caught up in conflicts mainly taking place on the other. I would note, however, that the article is incomplete, omitting relevant Irish sections/links. List of Civil Wars omits the Irish Civil War, for instance, and there is no List of Irish military institutions section or List of Irish military alliances section (which would presumably cover Ireland's participation in UN missions). Bastun 10:32, 17 May 2009 (UTC)

Why was the title of this article changed?

I see this article was unilaterally changed from 'history of the peoples of Britain' to the politically motivated 'history of the peoples of the British Isles'. This is at best duplication of various other articles, and at worst simply an attempt to claim Ireland and the Irish people as "British". This article has now become a political statement from the John Bull school of British politics. Misplaced Pages is not Britipedia, by the way. 213.202.138.52 (talk) 11:39, 16 May 2009 (UTC)

I have now delinked Military history of the peoples of Britain to this article. Should that be considered WP:AfD purple (talk) 16:24, 16 May 2009 (UTC)

I'm going to list this name move to a wider audience - I propose to list it at Talk:British Isles as I believe most editors with an interest monitor that article. Thoughts? --HighKing (talk) 20:38, 16 May 2009 (UTC)

This was redirected by User:Setanta747 some months back. I don't know how to do the AFD tags, so if another editor proposes, I'll back that. purple (talk) 20:58, 16 May 2009 (UTC)

If we rename this article back(?) to Military history of the United Kingdom every military action prior to the formation of the United Kingdom would have no place here. Fishiehelper2's suggestion to rename this article 'British military history' (16 February 2008) is far more sensible. Daicaregos (talk) 22:30, 16 May 2009 (UTC)

I'd be happy with that title. It makes sense.MITH 22:36, 16 May 2009 (UTC)

Yes, of course it does, because it removes "the hated" "British Isles". I object to any renaming. As it stands now, the artcicle includes singnificant references to Irish issues. As for putting it to a wider audience - why do think the old adversaries are now here? I picked up on this because it already has a mention at Talk:British Isles. HighKing, you are not going to get consensus here. MidnightBlue (Talk) 22:44, 16 May 2009 (UTC)

Can you give any other reason on why British Isles should be used in the title other than WP:ILIKEIT?MITH 22:47, 16 May 2009 (UTC)

Quote:"The only reason you and HighKing want it removed is WP:IDONTLIKEIT". -- MidnightBlue (Talk) - Thank you for making my point about your POV stance.MITH 23:36, 16 May 2009 (UTC)

I think that is a sensible suggestion/alternative. The only reason I suggested "United Kingdom" is to keep it in line with other "Military history" articles. Most of the series of "Military history" articles are written from the point of view of modern boundaries (a fact mentioned above as part of the original naming discussion where a consensus to move the article was not reached). But I'd support a move to this title as it's also appropriate. --HighKing (talk) 22:40, 16 May 2009 (UTC)

The name change proposal (in the previous section) to Military history of the United Kingdom is still extant. Do you want to wait until that vote has run its course before proposing a different name? Daicaregos (talk) 22:47, 16 May 2009 (UTC)

That is true, but the last thing we want is a repeat of this exercise. In essence HighKing is trying to get consensus about eliminating "British Isles" from the title, so I suggest the current discussion can stand as a one off page move attempt. MidnightBlue (Talk) 23:36, 16 May 2009 (UTC)

Please be aware of MITHs attempt to misrepresent my responses by editing his comments "after the event" (and it was a long way from an edit conflict, check the timings). Please see the detailed edit history of this page. MidnightBlue (Talk) 23:42, 16 May 2009 (UTC)

I didn't misrepresent anything. I asked you the question here at 22.47. You answered

You made this edit at 23:05. Anyway, I've had enough of this trivia. I'm moving back to the real debate, but not before a night's sleep. MidnightBlue (Talk) 23:53, 16 May 2009 (UTC)

Support: I'd support 'British military history' as a more accurate name as suggested above by Daicaregos. Otherwise revert the name to its original title. This renaming of article titles to include the term "British Isles" has happened on several articles in the past while with particular people trying to impose their politics on articles. The same thing was done a few months ago when 'History of Britain' was changed to History of the British Isles. Unsurprisingly, the same user who changed the name of this article,User:Setanta 747/Mal, made that change also. According to his homepage he's a British unionist in the northeast of Ireland so that gives us all perspective on the politics behind both changes. Dunlavin Green (talk) 11:08, 17 May 2009 (UTC)

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