Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 00:27, 26 November 2005

Definition

Should defectors really count as spies? That seems pretty bizarre to me, should we call Albert Einstein and Enrico Fermi American spies? What about the thousands of people who left East Germany for the West? Are they all West German spies? Lots of famous people defected from the Soviet Union to the USA, if this definition made any sense wouldn't there be a category:American spies? We could put Detroit Red Wing Sergei Fedorov on it. Maybe he brought secret Soviet hockey tape technology with him... The problem could probably be solved by creating a category for defectors from and to the USSR, and purging anyone from this list who wasn't known to be a spy. Flying fish 00:27, 26 November 2005 (UTC)

List quality

This list of "Soviet spies" is contentious, and has probably been compiled by a neo-conservative who wants to justify the old and new McCarthyism. I would certainly delete Lauchlin Currie's name from the list, and would mention that someone edited my original Wikepedia entry on Currie to embellish Elizabeth Bentley's charges against him. The edit was poorly written and included spelling mistakes, and I resented its insertion into my own article. If people want to dispute an article it should be done in a separate memorandum, not by adulterating someone else's writing. Please note that in my own article I explicitly drew attention to work that does claim that Currie was a spy (Haynes and Klehr, 1999), so the edit was gratuitous as well as ugly. - Roger Sandilands — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sandilands (talk • contribs) 01:12, 22 July 2005 (UTC)

This entire category is filled with assertions that put Misplaced Pages at legal risk. Persons accused of being Soviet Spies, perhaps. But in many cases the evidence is thin. Calling a citizen a spy means they are being called traitors, which is "libel per se," and the burden of proof shifts. This is a dangerous game being played here by ideological right-wing editors who fail to recognize their own POV.--Cberlet 04:03, 27 August 2005 (UTC)

If you follow the links, this category was evidently created as a subcategory of Category:Spies by nationality, using a Hollywood/fictional writing type definition. There are steps being taken to work on the problem; again, I would invite you to participate in a structural approach, rather than this constant fueding over contents, which can be dealt with later. nobs 06:04, 27 August 2005 (UTC)

Where is the discussion concering these "steps being taken to work on the problem" taking place? Certainly not on the page you cited, since there is no discussion for that page. I prefer facts to a structural approach that seems to consist of attempts to validate only one narrow POV concerning U.S. intelligence agency issues, when, in fact, in real scholarship, the area is quite broad and often contentious. I am not constantly feuding over contents. I point out inconsistiencies, POV, and misrepresenteations of underlying documents and secondary sources. That's called editing. It's what we do here at Misplaced Pages. If someone who worked where I work brought this list for publication in one of our reports or periodicals, they would probably be terminated for incompetence.--Cberlet 12:28, 27 August 2005 (UTC)

I am not seeking an arguement, however let me cite two instances from recent history. (1) A group of editors didn't like the dirt on Harry Magdoff, so they tried to pretend it didn't exist. It appears they requested the services of Mr. Cberlet to challenge the gubmint's findings. Mr. Cberlet's first (probably emotional) reaction was to create a new page rather than deal with a structured approach on the existing page. Final result: although the effort was to eradicate any of the gubmint's findings, now you have TWO pages with the evidence. (2) Mr. Cberlet didn't like Category:Soviet spies; nobs & Noel were in agreement w/Cberlet and were actively discussing the problems with the Category, and looking for a structured approach for a solution; Mr. Cberlet, in quite hasty fashion put up a CfD. Now the Category exists whether we like it or not.

So my friend, given the record, I suggest the hand of cooperation offered to you may be worth some consideration. nobs 17:20, 27 August 2005 (UTC)