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Report from ThuranX re: Joker "threat" emails

Section deleted. Given the nature of this problem, there is nothing that anyone who is not a checkuser can do about it, so there's no point fuelling the fire by discussing it and keeping him interested. WP:DENY, please. If you have concerns or questions of any kind about this, please e-mail the functionaries mailing list, functionaries-enlists.wikimedia.org. We are looking at ways to solve this problem. --Deskana, Champion of the Frozen Wastes 15:40, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

Threat by User:Petri Krohn

Petri Krohn (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) made a fairly unambiguous threat against User:Digwuren here. I urged him to remove it; he has edited since then and not done so. I think he should be blocked, and I move for an immediate and permanent community ban. He's been given enough chances. //roux   09:41, 23 May 2009 (UTC)

User notified. //roux   09:46, 23 May 2009 (UTC)

(edit conflict) To be fair, it doesn't look like an actual threat, more like "MY DADZ A POLICEMAN AND HE'L GET U" — extremely childish, but not a genuine menace (though I'm not familiar with the case, and might have misunderstood it). Therefore, I think that a permanent ban is a bit of an overreaction, and "horrifying" a bit of an exagguration. However, allowing such abuse, absurd as it is, shouldn't happen, so I suggest a block of a week, to be added to any block that might come separately out of the discussion in which the thread was made. ╟─TreasuryTag►hemicycle─╢ 09:49, 23 May 2009 (UTC)

See further comment below. ╟─TreasuryTag►hemicycle─╢ 09:59, 23 May 2009 (UTC)

This may provide some needed background to this apparently intractable problem. //roux   09:53, 23 May 2009 (UTC)

Ah, OK, horse of a different colour. Permaban seems much more palatable now, sorry for the ignorance... ╟─TreasuryTag►hemicycle─╢ 09:59, 23 May 2009 (UTC)

Personally, I really did not read the statement as a threat, but (as he himself said) as a friendly piece of advice. I don't know what he was talking about, but perhaps he meant this "agency." At least give him a change to explain himself before jumping into conclusions. Offliner (talk) 10:15, 23 May 2009 (UTC)

Given Krohn's past on Misplaced Pages, I read it more like "Nice place you got here, shame if anything happened to it, know what I mean?" than actual friendly advice. //roux   10:20, 23 May 2009 (UTC)

"You may get yourself into trouble because of agency X, you should be careful" is taken for "Nice place you got here, shame if anything happened to it"–with the threat of a permanent ban for the user? (What?) PasswordUsername (talk) 11:55, 23 May 2009 (UTC)

The absurdity of thinking that someone would intitiate a threat against another user at ANI is beyond me. PasswordUsername (talk) 14:44, 23 May 2009 (UTC)

Looking at the actual edit, it doesn't read like a threat. Petri Krohn is not threatening to take or initiate or cause any action. Warning editors of possible real-world consequences that could follow independently, from the warned editor's actions, isn't a threat. It's wasn't "my Dad's a policeman," which would be a threat to tell Dad. Whether or not it was advisable to say would depend on many factors, but PK's post is primarily a recounting of his history with Digwuren, and to sanction such reports would be chilling. And to propose it here disruptive. That post, to AN, would probably have been seen by many administrators, and if it called for immediate action, surely they would have noticed it. Complaining here is spreading discussion. --Abd (talk) 13:53, 23 May 2009 (UTC)

I see no request to User talk:Petri Krohn to remove the comment. The request cited above is to AN. AN is very difficult to follow and I often remove it from my watchlist even when I've posted there. No presumption can be made that an editor has read it. Some of the editors commenting here seem highly involved in disputes with PK, that should be considered as well. --Abd (talk) 14:08, 23 May 2009 (UTC)

No request? How about my diff posted above? //roux   18:48, 23 May 2009 (UTC)

• "If he continues his edits, he should make sure his true identity remains secret", plus telling that a Russian Agency will take care of him. Not a threat? Of course he did not tell: "you will be killed for making too much noise" as was said by another user in my case , but this is very close.Biophys (talk) 14:52, 23 May 2009 (UTC)

There is a threat, yes, but not coming from Petri Krohn, if he is correct. If he's not correct, then, of course, blow it off. I see no sign that Petri Krohn himself is threatening. Now, if it could be shown that he's connected with this "agency," then, of course, he should be out of here in a flash. But that's not the story here, at least not yet. More below. --Abd (talk) 16:02, 23 May 2009 (UTC)

I am sorry if I have offend someone. I did not intend to threaten anyone. I have removed my offending comment.

As for the "Russian Agency", the story is true – and it will have profound effects on Misplaced Pages. It remains to be seen what those are. Looks like the time of free speech is over. -- Petri Krohn (talk) 15:43, 23 May 2009 (UTC)

No, Petri, it has always been true, and remains true, that if you exercise your rights to free speech, in a way that offends someone with power, you can be harassed, prosecuted, murdered. Misplaced Pages hasn't changed the world in this respect. In fact, sometimes you can offend someone with apparently no power, and the end is the same. Basically, human beings have power and sometimes use it, make them angry enough. Some of us will do anything given sufficient provocation, and there are a few who will be provoked simply by their own imaginations. The world is a dangerous place, still. Welcome to it, it's also quite a nice place and usually safe if you don't go around pissing people off. Unfortunately, some of us find it necessary to speak up, on occasion. I'd probably be high on a list if certain people or organizations were to gain more power, or if I were considered more of a danger, and one of my old friends is seriously dead, for exactly the crime of speaking what he believed, there is an article here about him, you could probably figure it out from my edit history. He lived in Tucson, Arizona. Safe place? Not if you become well-known for something that some really don't want to hear. {He was wrong, by the way, but that doesn't make a difference here, he's still dead.) --Abd (talk) 16:02, 23 May 2009 (UTC)

I'm not seeing any activity at Joseph Stalin which seems related to this. If the "Russian Agency" was getting involved in Misplaced Pages, we'd probably see some efforts to rehabilitate Stalin's image. So far, no. --John Nagle (talk) 16:05, 23 May 2009 (UTC)

I have clarified my statement in the original thread. What I have now said explicitly is that activity similar to what we have seen on Misplaced Pages may become a criminal offense in Russia, and by extension in Estonia. I was too vague originally. I took efforts to avoid linking anyone to criminal activity, especially as this activity is not criminalized in the United States. -- Petri Krohn (talk) 17:03, 23 May 2009 (UTC)

P.S. I now see that User:Digwuren had already started an article on the newly created Russian Historical Truth Commission. The associated Law on countermeasures against the rehabilitation of Nazism, Nazi criminals and their associates in former republics of the Soviet Union threatens imprisoned for up to five years. I too find this threatening. -- Petri Krohn (talk) 00:09, 24 May 2009 (UTC)

P.P.S. Please note that whatever I wrote on ANI was not addressed to Digwuren but to administrators in general and User:Offliner in particular. I have presested my {{WikiThanks}} to Digwuren here. -- Petri Krohn (talk) 04:58, 25 May 2009 (UTC)

Yes, you also implied that Digwuren has apparently been singled out for special attention by this committee, hence your original "friendly warning" when you said: "If he continues his edits, he should make sure his true identity remains secret. Things said on Misplaced Pages do have effects in the real world. If I am not totally mistaken, Digwuren's edits on Misplaced Pages may have had a small role to play in the creation of the Agency" The question remains who singled Digwuren out and how do you know that Digwuren's activities figure so prominently in the formation of this committee that you felt compelled to give him this additional "friendly thankyou" on his talk page? --Martintg (talk) 05:20, 25 May 2009 (UTC)

Permban, I am not sure, but a few month may be helpful. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 17:41, 23 May 2009 (UTC)

Support a permaban. Krohn was already banned for a year for this kind of anti-estonian polemic. Krohn's remarks read as a threat that this Russian agency would be notified of Digwuren's identity should it ever be revealed, implying that Krohn would report Digwuren to the agency if he continued participating in editing Misplaced Pages. This is intimidatory. Misplaced Pages doesn't need editors with extremist agendas threatening people for the sole reason of belonging to a particular ethnic group. There should be zero tolerance for this kind of intimidation. --Martintg (talk) 22:28, 23 May 2009 (UTC)

What you are in fact reading from my comment, is that I would be willing to provide evidence to law enforcement agencies investigating and prosecuting criminal offenses. This is not what I am saying. Even if I did, I do not think this could be considered a threat. -- Petri Krohn (talk) 00:47, 24 May 2009 (UTC)

Support permaban or very long block. Petri Krohn 's warnings are directed only to people who disagree with him, especially user:Digwuren. Someone who says that dire things will happen to people who dare to disagree with him is not giving "friendly advice"; he is using intimidation to attempt to give himself an advantage. This is an utterly unacceptable debating tactic on Misplaced Pages. Abd's argument that no-one has actually proved that Petri Kohn is "connected with this ‘agency’ " is utterly irrelevant; we don't have a rule that people get a free pass on making threats until someone proves that they are able to carry them out.

Petri has made two "clarifications". They are oddly different from each other, and neither of them is very clear. One is that “As for the "Russian Agency", the story is true – and it will have profound effects on Misplaced Pages. It remains to be seen what those are. Looks like the time of free speech is over.” The other clarification possibly means that, when Russian law extends to Estonia, Estonians who have disagreed with him are likely to face criminal prosecution. So, possibly this second clarification is "only" a legal threat. Whatever these statements may mean (and I expect there will be more clarifications to these clarifications), in both of them the threatening tone comes through loud and clear. Also, that the threat has now been repeated, and in more than one version, proves that it was not a fluke. Petri Krohn has already served a 1 year block for misbehavior related to his disagreements with Estonian editors; apparently it was not enough. Cardamon (talk) 04:39, 24 May 2009 (UTC)

• I support permaban. This user's list of misdeeds is enormous. He is known for advocating inflammatory 'points of view' that he apparently is fighting for in real life, too. Misplaced Pages is not a soapbox, nor should it be battlefield. Petri Krohn's hint that his 'opponent' Digwuren might get Russian secret service's attention in real life был последней каплей for me. --Miacek (t) 08:52, 24 May 2009 (UTC)
• Oppose permaban > 6 months? I've actually just had quite a civil chat with this user on their talkpage, and they don't seem to be the complete crank that they come over to be here. I think that they deserve a long cooling-off period, and then another chance, so I'm suggesting 6 months. Sorry to keep chopping and changing my opinion on this subject, but I hope this will be my final word! ╟─TreasuryTag►hemicycle─╢ 08:54, 24 May 2009 (UTC)

Except that what Krohn regards as Digwuren's POV on Estonian history corresponds to the view of eminent historians such as David J. Smith (who is a Reader in Baltic Studies at the Department of Central and East European Studies, University of Glasgow, and Editor of the Journal of Baltic Studies). This is what Smith writes in his book "Estonia: Independence and European integration". Krohn on the other hand is an apparent member of SAFKA (This has been previously reported to the COI), an activist group that believes the Soviet occupation of the Baltic states is a myth. The activities of the SAFKA have been investigated by the Estonian security police who have discovered some members have links with certain elements within Russia and this has widely reported in the Estonian press. Hence Krohn's "friendly warning" to Digwuren had a chilling effect that was certainly intimidatory. --Martintg (talk) 12:40, 24 May 2009 (UTC)

• Support permaban - Digwuren and Petri Krohn were both banned for a year, in part for clashing with each other. Since their return, Digwuren has shown good conduct, but Petri Krohn has proven unable to do so. Implying that the Russian government is going to go after you if you don't change your ways is bound to have a chilling effect, especially on someone from tiny next-door Estonia. We don't want that kind of editing environment, and so I propose Petri Krohn should be excluded from the project. - Biruitorul 15:20, 24 May 2009 (UTC)

Note to admins–As said before, I find it ridiculous that a particular number of editors who have written above, largely the same group of user who always seek to justify Digwuren's latest pattern of behavior by slinging mud at his opponents, is now seeking to make the claim that Petri Krohn's warning to Digwuren about the latest development on a contested historical issue from the perspective of the Russian government's commission, which he has already amply clarified, is taken for a threat when he posted it on ANI–publicly and under his own name!
Laughable is the assertion of the editor above, claiming that "since their return, Digwuren has shown good conduct, but Petri Krohn has proven unable to do so." As Offliner has clearly demonstrated here (I strongly recommend reading this thread in full detail–Offliner's post, among other things, features a whole compendium of personal attacks and crass incivility against a number of users, including myself), Digwuren has not shown good faith–rather, the bulk of his edits have been constituted by disrupting and making personal attacks against other editors, including against myself. (This new diversion from Digwuren's behavior–a transformation of the issue into an attack on Petri Krohn for supposed "threats" is interesting of itself.) Digwuren is now proceeding to stalk my edits: compare the good work done by Digwuren as far as these unmistakable instances–plainly obvious from the most recent histories of articles such as 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6.

Moreover, as Digwuren himself wrote on May 11, the day on which within 24 hours of encountering me he laughably accused me of being a sockpuppet of Anonimu or Jacob Peters (he never actually made up his mind as to which editor I was)

"Today, PasswordUsername asking Petri Krohn for help regarding the Neo-Stalinism categories. It is unlikely to help him -- Mr. Krohn has been behaving rather well in the recent months -- but since this is his very first edit on Krohn's talkpage, and they do not seem to have had previous contacts regarding Stalinism -- neo or otherwise -- it raises a question of why he'd pick Petri Krohn out of the thousands of editors." 7.

My explanation for "picking Petri Krohn out of the thousands of editors," of course, is explained fully at the same link provided. What is funny is that even Digwuren himelf (in fact, a SPA, unlike Petri Krohn) has publicly acknowledged the good nature of Petri's contributions (again, oddly enough, this being in the context of an obscene attack against myself), but, having now given a history of his rather difficult co-existence with Digwuren's belligerent editing patterns, Petri is accused of some great malice by Digwuren's loyal crew. Frankly, I interpret this as nothing but the bad-faith insults of a lynch-mob threatening to conduct "punishment" against a user whose productive, if not exactly quite passive, editing history stands in sharp juxtaposition against their own. Between Digwuren and Petri Krohn, I can say in all good conscience that if anybody deserves to be permabanned, it is not Petri Krohn–although given the administrators' reluctance to intervene in the dispute against Digwuren by taking measures more stringent than simply asking both Offliner and Digwuren to "walk away and behave," I strongly suggest that the accusations here simply be dismissed as equally frivolous. (And what has been said about Petri is much more frivolous than the substantial cases made against Digwuren many a time in the past.) I encourage all administrators to examine this issue seriously–claims against Petri Krohn are partisan and blatant character assasssinations which should be observed and analyzed just for what they are. PasswordUsername (talk) 19:52, 24 May 2009 (UTC)

• Krohn has just issued another "friendly warning" on Digwuren's talk page, implying that this commission will take particular interest in Digwuren and ominously talks of Digwuren in the past tense . --Martintg (talk) 00:45, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
  • That isn't a "friendly warning" in quotation marks–what Petri says is clearly a commendation for the article he himself had wanted to start and the tense is the grammatical feature of language known as the "future perfect"–but thank you for noting it. I should also note that Petri Krohn opposes the commission, if you're still fond of equivocally speaking of the subject. PasswordUsername (talk) 01:12, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
    • Simply not true. SAFKA endorses the law and hails it as "a victory for Safka". The connection between SAFKA members and one of the committee members Alexander Dyukov is well known. There are many editors involved in editing articles about the former Soviet Union, yet Digwuren has apparently been singled out for special attention by this committee, or so Krohn claims. The question remains who singled Digwuren out and how does Krohn know that Digwuren's activities figure so prominently in the formation of this committee? --Martintg (talk) 01:46, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
      • Sorry, you obviously haven't bothered to read what Petri Krohn has written here at ANI/Incidents, at the main administrators' noticeboard, or on other pages. Whatever organization he may or may not happen to be part of, the opinions he holds as an individual are his own personal thoughts–and he has clearly written online that he, too, "find the law threatening." (See here.) I think you should stop throwing in people's real-life identities in these disputes–regardless of one's ideology, opinions, occupation, or activities in real life, the benchmark for judging the conduct of online contributors is simply their online conduct. PasswordUsername (talk) 01:56, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
        • Your initial claim was "Petri Krohn opposes the commission", this is a long way from "find the law threatening". Evidently he was hoping Digwuren would find this law threatening too, enough to intimidate him from further contribution to Misplaced Pages. However this law has absolutely no jurisdiction anywhere outside Russia, except perhaps to those Russian citizens living abroad who may contribute to Misplaced Pages. Yet this "friendly warning" was not offered to any of these Russian editors, only to Digwuren. --Martintg (talk) 02:14, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
          • The commission is "the law" being referred to here–I think you're attacking the imprecise semantics, yet doing injustice to the concrete meaning (the proposition) being brought up here. (Perhaps the best way of gleaning this is to consult the informal fallacy trivial objections.) The application of the law is coordinated in conjunction with the work done by the Historical Truth Commission–and Petri's already clarified that his concern related to the law's not being limited in scope to Russia's territory. PasswordUsername (talk) 02:31, 25 May 2009 (UTC)

P.S.: I even misquoted Petri Krohn's remarks–rather than speaking of "the law," he specifically made clear:

"P.S. I now see that User:Digwuren had already started an article on the newly created Russian Historical Truth Commission. The associated Law on countermeasures against the rehabilitation of Nazism, Nazi criminals and their associates in former republics of the Soviet Union threatens imprisoned for up to five years. I too find this threatening. -- Petri Krohn (talk) 00:09, 24 May 2009 (UTC)" (1)

Whatever else was said by Petri Krohn, it was all in the same vein: nowhere does he endorse the commission (you might want to try asking his own opinion of the commission or gleaning it from what he's written about it before you jump to conclusions). Here's to hoping that this has now clarified everything up for you, Martintg. PasswordUsername (talk) 05:33, 25 May 2009 (UTC)

I'm not commenting on the specifics here, because they may come before the Arbitration Committee, but I strongly urge everyone interested in this situation to carefully review and abide by the principles outlined in Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Jim62sch. Newyorkbrad (talk) 03:00, 25 May 2009 (UTC)

This hardly should come before the ArbCom because this user was already banned by ArbCom, and a consensus about his behavior was reached at AE noticeboard . Telling another user "If he continues his edits, he should make sure his true identity remains secret" and reminding about an "Agency" was clearly an attempt of intimidation, as noted by DGG at another board . Biophys (talk) 17:33, 25 May 2009 (UTC)

What I get from the ArbCom case NewYorkBrad refers to are principles in that case concerning harassment and threats, which states: "The making of express or implied threats against another editor is a form of harassment and is prohibited. In particular, any suggestion of seeking to disrupt or harm an editor's off-Misplaced Pages life (including his or her employment) in retaliation for his or her editing on Misplaced Pages is unacceptable.", which links to Misplaced Pages:Harassment#Threats, stating "Legal threats are a special case of threat, with their own settled policy. Users who make legal threats will typically be blocked from editing indefinitely.". --Martintg (talk) 05:57, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

This is not a case of legal threat but of legal risk. The relevant section is Raising good-faith concerns:

The text goes on to say: However, the sender should be sure that the communication serves a legitimate purpose and should take great care to ensure that it will not be perceived as threatening by the recipient. If I had felt a need to send communication to Digwuren, I am sure I would have taken great care to ensure that it would not have been perceived as threatening. However my communication at WP:AN mainly served the legitimate purpose of informing the administrators and User Offliner. On the issue of Russian law enforcement we have been in friendly communication. In fact we have collaborated on the article, without a hint of conflict. -- Petri Krohn (talk) 07:04, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

• Support permaban From the evidence presented it is clear that this user has exhausted the community's patience. He has been banned before and still has not changed his ways. It is high time to eliminate his disruption from the editorial process. I also support removal of Arbcom review. Geoff Plourde (talk) 15:48, 26 May 2009 (UTC)

• Not support permaban I haven't read any of the nonsense contained herein, but one thing that I did not take what Petri Krohn's comments as was a threat. The truth is, Digwuren is an Estonian nationalist; the worst of the worst not yet permabanned (it's ok for User:Moreschi to characterise others as this, so this is fair too eh Moreschi?), There was no threat, and other editors are generally acting like teenage girls, and pack dogs (as is usual), and this is yet more grandstanding by said editors. The new laws being introduced in Russia will make people like Digwuren a target; not for assassination, or other such tripe, but for targetting by these laws against people who try to rewrite history as is seen every day in the Baltics, and right here on Misplaced Pages. As Petri mentioned, Digwuren best not make his real life identity known, otherwise the web brigades (note its presence in conspiracy theory category) could make his life difficult, and he could be refused entry into Russia, etc, etc. Oh and User:Biruitorul, Digwuren's conduct has been anything but good since his return; his calling other editors pigs (without a single apology), characterising others as neo-Nazis (without a single apology), stalking, tedious editing, disruption of AfDs, etc and generally being a right pain in the ass, is not what one should characterise as good conduct. How about letting the wikidrama subside, stop f'ing around in trying to off content opponents, and everyone gets back to editing? --Russavia 22:55, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

User:United Statesman

Little problem here. Someone has been sending e-mail messages to other Misplaced Pages members (whom they do not know) using my former username. Not only that, the e-mails are repulsive. A member sent me the contents of the message he got:

You wanna know how I got these scars? My father was a drinker and a fiend. And one night, he goes off craaazier than usual. Mommy gets the kitchen knife to defend herself. He doesn't like that. Not. One. Bit. So, me watching, he takes the knife to her, laughing while he does it. He turns to me, and he says, "Why so serious?" He comes at me with the knife: "Why so serious?" Sticks the blade in my mouth: "Let's put a smile on that face." Aaand.why so serious? - The Joker

My username was United Statesman until a couple of weeks ago, when I changed it to Brunswickian. And now, someone is playing a sick joke, as the current United Statesman has no edits and re-directs to my userpage. B R U N S W I C K I A N 07:56, 25 May 2009 (UTC)

Looks like the Joker vandal. This issue has been raised at WP:BN under the section heading "Renames and the Joker" --t'shael mindmeld 08:38, 25 May 2009 (UTC)

The account has been blocked by another admin and the user can no longer send emails. The remarks in the email stem from the movie the Dark Knight, so maybe that makes it less creepy, and certainly unoriginal. If the joker decides to quote The Sisterhood of the Traveling Pants, then I'd be very concerned. Law _{type! snype?} 11:02, 25 May 2009 (UTC)

• Yeah, I got that too and deleted it as a random stupid joke. Probably worth mentioning to people that they should recreate their old account after a rename. Stifle (talk) 08:23, 26 May 2009 (UTC)

Heh, I'm so scared! I will be desysopped at midnight unless I block as many constructive editors as possible! I fear his "hacking skills" and "steward powers"! Honestly, some people have way too much time on their hands... (By the way, my email was sent by "The Joker." not the United Statesman. I have a slight inkling that they might be the same person.) — Malcolm (talk) 20:54, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

User:DreamGuy

Banned User:Pioneercourthouse resurfaces

As noted in Misplaced Pages:Sockpuppet investigations/Pioneercourthouse/Archive, that guy has found three more articles connected with Pioneer Courthouse Square to attack, the main article having been protected for some time now. Why we need 3 articles on essentially one subject, I don't know. But I just wonder if it would be wise to also have the other two articles protected, or more to the point, whether anyone would object to it. The three latest targets of this abuser are Pioneer Courthouse, Pioneer Place, and Pioneer Square, Seattle. Baseball Bugs carrots 04:32, 26 May 2009 (UTC)

An admin has now protected Pioneer Courthouse, and meanwhile there is another sock currently attacking the still-unprotected Pioneer Place and Pioneer Square, Seattle. I'm assuming the admin will protect those too, so I'm just kind of getting this on the record for possible future reference. Baseball Bugs carrots 04:57, 26 May 2009 (UTC)

Other pages now protected also. Baseball Bugs carrots 05:26, 26 May 2009 (UTC)

I guess that message he sent us through the possible meat puppet that said he did not want to continue the pattern of disruptive editing was a fabrication. Even though that possible meatpuppet was blocked on sight, this report here will just give us more reason in the future to wave off such claims.— Dædαlus 06:17, 26 May 2009 (UTC)

I raised this here because of the page protection question, which was quickly answered in the affirmative. The socks themselves can be turned in to WP:AIV for on-sight indef-blocking, as was that obvious sock from the other day who claimed to be a "friend" of the puppetmaster. It is grossly unfair for one jerk to be holding those pages hostage, but that's show biz. Baseball Bugs carrots 06:25, 26 May 2009 (UTC)

Just a comment that I hope others will be adding these new targets to their watch lists. The vandal has demonstrated a willingness in the past to create multiple sleeper accounts and to make enough minor edits to get auto-confirmed in order to get around the semi-protection on the Pioneer Courthouse Square article, which has resulted in long-term full protection on that page. I see no reason to suspect he won't use similar strategies on these three new targets. --- Barek (talk • contribs) - 14:12, 26 May 2009 (UTC)

Yep, I don't expect this will be the end. To that effect, I'll be experimenting with a filter targeting the behavior itself so the articles can be unprotected. —EncMstr (talk) 14:36, 26 May 2009 (UTC)

Those pages are now on my watchlist. I won't be online much in the next ten days, but I'll be happy to take out any ducks I happen to see pop out of the pond. OhNoitsJamie 15:43, 26 May 2009 (UTC)

Just a thought: It doesn't seem this blocking strategy is working. He is becoming more effective with each passing day. Perhaps if we sat down and talked to him, this could be worked out. Most people are not completely irrational and from what I've seen, there has been a wholesale assumption that this guy is a malicious vandal and has no ulterior motive except vandalism. Maybe this is so, but maybe a little discussion could do wonders - maybe he honestly believes in the homeless issue, for instance. And from what I've seen, he may want to reform, but his demands have just been deleted. Again, just a random thought from someone who has been observing from afar and decided to chime in. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Davisomalley (talk • contribs) 19:49, 26 May 2009 (UTC)

See talk:Pioneer Courthouse Square and the archive pages for it. Discussion has been attempted. Reasoning has been attempted. All have failed. The sock/vandal has a specific agenda they choose to push - and when others oppose that agenda, their standard practice is to either claim that they are being abused; or to claim to be a third party wanting to help negotiate a resolution, while actually manipulating the Misplaced Pages community, until such time that their true colors are shown and the additional sock is blocked. Both strategies have been used many times by the sock/vandal. --- Barek (talk • contribs) - 20:19, 26 May 2009 (UTC)

I understand this way of reasoning. However, if you read the archives carefully, it appears the vandal attempted to "reform" himself once but perhaps sincerely felt abused by others when he did so. I think we should offer him one more pathway to reforming and if he rejects it, it should be assumed he is truly a vandal. I disagree that he has attemptefd to manipulate the community "many times." In fact, it doesn't appear he has ever been given a good faith opportunity to reform. Rather than always assume the worst about vandals, perhaps we should, as a community, try and take a softer approach sometimes. Just banning, banning, banning, blocking, blocking, blocking really doesn't seem to be working very well. Again, just a point of view from afar. Take it or leave it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Davisomalley (talk • contribs) 20:25, 26 May 2009 (UTC)

Yes, many times. See Misplaced Pages:Requests for checkuser/Case/Pioneercourthouse and Misplaced Pages:Sockpuppet investigations/Pioneercourthouse/Archive. Yesterday's edit warring is direct evidence that he has no interest in changing his ways, his one and only interrest is to press his agenda any way he can. His tools are to edit-war, or to pretend to be engaging in reasonable discussion which has always fallen appart due to his non-willingness to accept overwhelming community concensus, or pretend to be a third party pretending to want to find a resolution - while actually only attempting a different means to waste the community's time in an alternate strategy to force his unsourced soapboxing into Misplaced Pages. --- Barek (talk • contribs) - 20:46, 26 May 2009 (UTC)

You may be correct. However yesterday's edit war may also be a sign that he is seeking attention. Perhaps give him attention in a positive way. My point is our current strategy is not working at all. We need to find alternative strategies. What good is this current blocking strategy doing? None at all! I don't believe the soft approach has been adequately explored. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Davisomalley (talk • contribs) 20:56, 26 May 2009 (UTC)

The continuous block of the page is actually working quite well, in the sense that it's keeping your 3 1/2 year old nonsense edit out of the article. The downside is that by your behavior, you continue to hold the article hostage from legitimate editors. Baseball Bugs carrots 21:39, 26 May 2009 (UTC)

Oops, already indef'd. Never mind. :) Baseball Bugs carrots 21:49, 26 May 2009 (UTC)

If it is a sign that he's seeking attention, then R-B-I is the best approach. No attention is the proven only viable solution for these situations - not to feed his temper-tantrum request for attention. The soft approach has been more than adequately explored, multiple times and with the same repeated soapboxing being forced upon Misplaced Pages articles each time it has been attempted. --- Barek (talk • contribs) - 21:12, 26 May 2009 (UTC)

He's accumulated a lot of R-B-I's already this year. He strikes out a lot, but he keeps trying to get a homeless run. Maybe you think I'm just being funny, but that's on the square. Baseball Bugs carrots 00:31, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

I've started a page to try to explain this situation so we don't have to repeat it every month: Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Oregon/Pioneercourthouse sockpuppet saga. tedder (talk) 22:15, 26 May 2009 (UTC)

FYI: I spotted a fourth target for the sockpuppet's vandalism: Pioneer Court in Chicago, by Obleaop (talk · contribs). --- Barek (talk • contribs) - 17:05, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

And another sock on this article: Dinkiebrains (talk · contribs) ... me thinks this article also requires protection. --- Barek (talk • contribs) - 17:51, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

These are both blocked and a nice abuse filter has been made - by EncMstr (talk · contribs) - and turned on. We can wrap this up here and handle as things progress. Wknight94 18:05, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

User:Malcolm Schosha

Malcolm Schosha (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

I have lengthened Malcom's block to indefinite for ongoing personal attacks whilst already blocked for edit warring and personal attacks. Posted here for input and review. Gwen Gale (talk) 12:27, 26 May 2009 (UTC)

• Good block. Attacking large numbers of volunteer editors who sacrifice their time to maintaining Misplaced Pages should never be tolerated and if someone continues to do so even while being blocked for exactly those reasons, they should be shown the door. I'd even suggest disabling talk page editing for this editor because it's unlikely to become better... Regards SoWhy 12:36, 26 May 2009 (UTC)

• Support indefinite block. He's basically trolling to get blocked and then claimed victimhood. I think the month-long game at Talk:Self-hating_Jew#Any_constructive_suggestions.3F shows he isn't here to edit the encyclopedia, but just to argue for the sake of arguing. He'll be elsewhere complaining about the users here and his "mistreatment" soon enough. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 12:37, 26 May 2009 (UTC)

• • It is the previous section Talk:Self-hating_Jew#The problem with Finlay where he totally misrepresents Mick Finlay's record of published writings and calls that academic an apologist for Islam that got to me. I was on the verge of posting in another place something asking what Malcolm brings to Misplaced Pages apart from niggling comments that waste other editor's time. So that's a Support block from me. --Peter cohen (talk) 13:44, 26 May 2009 (UTC)

• Long overdue. Has a knack for juvenile condescension against users of different POVs...don't have diffs handy, but he got a kick out of addressing me as Tark for some reason. Plus he has been calling other editors antisemitic for quite awhile now, and was even tossed off an ArbCom case because of it. Tarc (talk) 12:45, 26 May 2009 (UTC)

• Support Pretty nasty ongoing commentary, and obvious from his last few months of article space edits that he's only here to push what appears to be a pretty fringey POV, which is never helpful. Has been pretty much on a rampage of nastiness since people on the same political wavelength as himself were topic-banned from the Palestinian-Israeli topics in the recent RFAR. rootology/equality 13:30, 26 May 2009 (UTC)

• Support I have been following this at a distance and I think indef is now merited. --John (talk) 13:37, 26 May 2009 (UTC)
• Oh, I don't know him except one encounter at Talk:Porcelain#Lead image. Before reading this, I'd have suggested that his profound knowledge of fine art is too valuable, so just allow him to write such subjects only. However, the "Empty skulls" comment is way beyond any acceptable range of incivility, so I support.....Caspian blue 13:46, 26 May 2009 (UTC)
• Support Though not necessarily for the precise reason stated in his block log. I think his general abuse of Misplaced Pages as a battleground is a more accurate summary of his problems.--Tznkai (talk) 14:54, 26 May 2009 (UTC)

• Good call. Malcom isn't willing to abide by Misplaced Pages's policies so this was inevitable. PhilKnight (talk) 15:49, 26 May 2009 (UTC)

• Support It might have been less inflammatory to have requested another previously uninvolved admin review and act as appropriate - but I am certain the end result would have been the same/ LessHeard vanU (talk) 18:24, 26 May 2009 (UTC)

Malcom's way was to strongly attack admins trying to deal with him, then claim they were "involved" and "harassing" or "out to get" him. Hence Malcom said I was involved, but I never was. I always hoped he'd settle down. Gwen Gale (talk) 18:31, 26 May 2009 (UTC)

Indeed, which is why having yet another admin do the review and likely block does not feed into that culture of being accused of having prior bias - but ultimately, it was a good block for the right reasons. LessHeard vanU (talk) 21:25, 26 May 2009 (UTC)

If every admin a user encounters is then "involved", sooner or later that user would run out of admins. Better that we just be shut of the user well before that point. ++Lar: t/c 21:31, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

• No objections, I generally support incivility blocks. It's somewhat amusing that he's blocked for displaying poor social skills by ranting about the supposed poor social skills of others.  Sandstein  19:27, 26 May 2009 (UTC)

Well, it looks like he's amused with us. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 20:00, 26 May 2009 (UTC)

• Support Good block. And by all means, let his amusement continue, indefinitely. Baseball Bugs carrots 21:09, 26 May 2009 (UTC)
• Oppose - I think one should be able to blow off some steam on their talk page, and while his comment on 'empty skulls' was over the line it doesn't warrant an indef block in my opinion. Nableezy (talk) 21:16, 26 May 2009 (UTC)
• We have granted his wish for a block, as it were, and I think both the wiki and Malcolm will be better off. Support ++Lar: t/c 21:31, 27 May 2009 (UTC)
• Weak oppose. The user in my experience does treat WP as a battleground, and has a substantial block history . But none of those blocks were for longer than 72 hours, and occasional flashes of reasonableness meant I hadn't, despite my experience with him, quite given up on hope of productive interaction. Now that he's accepted it, I guess it's moot, but I'd have suggested a longer "think about why and how you're doing this" block (maybe 2-4 weeks) first, rather than jumping to indefinite. Maybe I'm just a softie, but I'm wary of indefinite blocks, especially of users engaged on very political topics. Rd232 23:32, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

Maury Markowitz and redirect deletions

I'm taking this here because this will likely need administrators to undelete pages. Maury Markowitz (talk · contribs) has for some time been deleting redirects for being unused or "polluting Google". He doesn't seem to understand that he's wrong, even after a successful deletion review; relevant threads are User talk:Maury Markowitz#VIA redirects and User talk:Maury Markowitz#Redirects. The next step would be to go through all the redirects he deleted and undelete those that should not have been deleted. I can help create the list, but for obvious reasons cannot help with the undeletions. --NE2 13:09, 26 May 2009 (UTC)

• I've left him a message to point out that there's more than just you thinking that the deletions are a bit off. Stifle (talk) 13:18, 26 May 2009 (UTC)

Oh my god, this is still going on?! Undelete them all, with my blessings! I don't care one way or the other. But I do care about NE2's constant complaints and casting aspersions. So if undeleting all of these makes him leave me alone, great, full speed ahead! Maury Markowitz (talk) 14:12, 26 May 2009 (UTC)

Fair enough; if someone sends me a list I'll work through it. Stifle (talk) 15:25, 26 May 2009 (UTC)

User:NE2/redirects includes all of them. There are likely a few non-redirects and a few valid redirect deletions in there. --NE2 17:32, 26 May 2009 (UTC)

I've checked through #39 (PostScipt). --Carnildo (talk) 01:47, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

And done. About half of the redirects have been restored. --Carnildo (talk) 01:13, 28 May 2009 (UTC)

Poor judgment and questionable timing on a speedy deletion

I am posting this note because I believe that there was poor judgment shown in the speedy deletion of Stanislav Menshikov. Here is the chronology:

• May 16: a dispute begins over whether commentary by Menshikov that is favorable to Lyndon LaRouche is sufficiently notable for inclusion in the lead of that article.
• May 22: Will Beback posts a comment in which he says Menshikov is "not impartial."
• May 22: Will speedy deletes Menshikov's bio.
• May 23: TallNapoleon notes that Menshikov is "redlinked."
• May 23: Cs32en deletes Menshikov quote on the grounds that Menshikov is redlinked.
• May 24: Cs32en posts this: "If Menshikov is not notable enough to have his own article, why would his opinion about another person be so important that it would be in the lede?"
• May 24: Will responds, "That's a good point."

The reason given for speedy deletion was that the article was created by a banned user. Assuming that this is true, Will had several options:

• He could have deleted the article over a year ago (he chose to edit the article instead)
• He could have posted a notice on a relevant board, asking an uninvolved admin to take action
• He could have invited community participation through a conventional AfD process

Instead, Will chose the one course of action that was most likely to create the impression that he was using admin tools to shape the outcome of an article content dispute. --Leatherstocking (talk) 14:55, 26 May 2009 (UTC)

He edited the article only once and deleted it as having been created by a banned user. Any user in good standing can recreate it. Gwen Gale (talk) 15:46, 26 May 2009 (UTC)

I'm with Leatherstocking on this one. Recreated. Maury Markowitz (talk) 16:49, 26 May 2009 (UTC)

That's ok! Gwen Gale (talk) 17:02, 26 May 2009 (UTC)

Well, since the article creator MaplePorter (talk · contribs) does appear to be a sock of a banned user, Will Beback was technically correct (which is, as my idol Hermes Conrad would say, the best kind of "correct") to speedy delete it, prior edits notwithstanding, although the circumstances of the deletion as related by Leatherstocking do seem a bit odd. Worse, the recreation by Maury Markowitz might (also technically) be considered both proxying for a banned editor and the beginning of a wheel war. To avoid any unproductive nastiness, I suggest that we just submit the article to AfD to find out whether this (probably borderline notable) guy should have an article or not.  Sandstein  17:06, 26 May 2009 (UTC)

Maury Markowitz didn't use the admin bit to recreate the article so I don't see much of a wheel war there (as I said, any editor in good standing could have done that). However, I do agree AfD would be the way to go if anyone is wondering about the notability of this topic. Gwen Gale (talk) 17:22, 26 May 2009 (UTC)

Actually, going by the Google cache, it looks like Maury recreated it without undeleting the history, a big no-no for reasons of attribution. --NE2 17:34, 26 May 2009 (UTC)

(ec) Well, I assume he used admin privileges to retrieve the deleted content (but, as I said, technically).  Sandstein  17:35, 26 May 2009 (UTC)

The user in question was banned six months after the article was created. The policy is very clear that you SD material in violation of the ban, and only if there are no other major editors. Neither case applies. Maury Markowitz (talk) 17:29, 26 May 2009 (UTC)

Given the very long and sad block log of the sockmaster before and after the time when the article was begun, I can't get too stirred up about the deletion of an article created by one of its socks. I think we can agree AfD is the way to deal with this now. Gwen Gale (talk) 17:38, 26 May 2009 (UTC)

However, Maury, it does look like you rs'd the text by copying from an edit window only an admin could have. This was not what I meant by "recreate." I think both of you have made a muddle of this and I have restored the article history, given the need for attribution under GFDL. Gwen Gale (talk) 17:47, 26 May 2009 (UTC)

Now listed at Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Stanislav Menshikov.  Sandstein  21:50, 26 May 2009 (UTC)

• To correct an error by Leatherstocking: when I edited the article (only a minor edit), Mapleporter had not yet been identified as a sock of a banned user. Leatherstocking has a history of complaining about enforcement activities regarding HK's socks. Regarding Maury Markowitz's issue about whether Mapleporter was banned at the time: we ban people, not accounts. The person behind Mapleporter was the banned editor Herschelkrustofsky, who has used dozens of sock accounts. HK also has a history of creating articles solely to improve the reputation of Lyndon LaRouche, of whom he is a follower. In the year since it was created it was not linked to any other article.   Will Beback  talk  19:36, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

Under the circumstances, then, the appropriate time to delete would be at the time the sock was identified. Also, please refrain from attributing motives to other editors -- I don't have "a history of complaining about enforcement activities regarding HK's socks." I have a "history" of calling attention to enforcement actions, by you, that have the effect of influencing content disputes to which you you are a party. You can avoid my calling attention to such actions, by not taking them. That is why we have this board: call in an uninvolved admin. --Leatherstocking (talk) 01:01, 28 May 2009 (UTC)

I didn't attribute a motive - I identified a behavior. You're welcome to call attention to anything you like. But I've been following policy. Any help dealing with the banned user is appreciated. Even better would be if the banned editor would stay away, as the community has repeatedly decided.   Will Beback  talk  05:14, 28 May 2009 (UTC)

Trotskyism bias

The pages on Trotskyism read as if written by Trotskyists. They make scores of statements about the USSR and its history, usually without any verification, sometimes only with references to Trotsky or Trotskyist writers. When these are challenged, as by the present writer, threats of blocking are made (e.g by Roland - who says on his page that he is a supporter of Trotsky's 4th International.) Stevenjp (talk) 15:07, 26 May 2009 (UTC)

Hi Stevenjp, I suggest you have a look at the dispute resolution page. PhilKnight (talk) 15:53, 26 May 2009 (UTC)

I made no "threats of blocking"; but I warned this editor several times that if he persisted in adding unsourced factual claims, personal commentary and derogatory remarks, then he risked being blocked. My editing of the page is no less acceptable than is that of Stevenjp himself, since he is a supporter of the hostile CPB (M-L). RolandR 17:43, 26 May 2009 (UTC)

Which, says CPB (M-L) "should not be confused with the Communist Party of Britain (941 members), the Revolutionary Communist Party of Britain (Marxist-Leninist) (30 members), nor with the Communist Party of Great Britain (Marxist-Leninist). ("one of the smaller remaining fragments") " See also Monty Python's Life of Brian re "Judean People's Front". There's still someone alive who wants to edit war over this? --John Nagle (talk) 21:53, 26 May 2009 (UTC)

I remember "Leon the Lip", as they called the old twirler. He was a lefty, with plenty of heat but no control, and eventually the other team went gunning for him. His cousin Hal was far more successful. He was a first baseman and a heavy hitter. Being an Indian, he stayed neutral on political matters. Baseball Bugs carrots 00:24, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

Ah, Trotsky. IIRC he once addressed a political meeting in the US with the immortal line, "Workers and peasants of the Bronx!" Always had his finger on the pulse that one. --Folantin (talk) 08:14, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

Was that the one at Yankee Stadium? With his cousin playing first base for the visitors? After Leon the Lip was given the Bronx cheer, he sadly remarked that on that day, he considered himself the unluckiest man on the face of the earth. For one thing, they refused to retire his number. Baseball Bugs carrots 08:43, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

Anticipating Mike Dukakis by several decades, Leon posed in a military vehicle, and sang the Bob Hope song, "Tanks for de memories." At that point they awarded him a prize - a free vacation trip to Mexico. Turned out to be a one-way ticket. Baseball Bugs carrots 08:45, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

Prem Rawat enforcement action

I'd like to draw the community's attention to my arbitration enforcement action at Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement#Teachings of Prem Rawat. Because that action involves the block of an administrator (as well as a non-administrator editor), and because blocks of administrators have the potential to become controversial, I am bringing the matter here preemptively. I consent to any change to my enforcement action that might be necessary to bring it into accordance with community consensus (if any).  Sandstein  16:49, 26 May 2009 (UTC)

Well done. These edits by User:Will_Beback so soon after the Arbcom decision show very poor judgement, unworthy of an administrator. Under these circumstances I would say a topic ban was in order. (Off2riorob (talk) 17:41, 26 May 2009 (UTC))

Concur with block - if ArbCom Enforcement is to mean anything then it needs applying swiftly and without favour. LessHeard vanU (talk) 18:32, 26 May 2009 (UTC)

Will Beback made a case that he wasn't in violation, in the 24 May portion of Talk:Teachings of Prem Rawat#FORMER FOLLOWERS section. When Newyorkbrad becomes available after holiday, I request that he examine Will's defense and offer an opinion as to its merit along with noting any gray areas. Newyorkbrad has the professional skills to parse a defense by detail of rules, and is widely considered fair in making such judgments. Milo 20:59, 26 May 2009 (UTC)

I would like to thank Milo for his confidence in me. However, traditionally, sitting arbitrators generally do not participate in enforcement of decisions, because the cases may come back again them before a later date and they would then have an involvement in the actions being reviewed. Therefore, it would probably be best if discussion here continues for a consensus of uninvolved non-arb admins. (I also have three truly massive arb cases that I need to work through in the next 24 hours.) Thanks again for thinking of me, though. :) Regards, Newyorkbrad (talk) 21:11, 26 May 2009 (UTC)

Will Beback is substantially in violation of the section provided at ArbCom Enforcement, in that he reverted to his earlier version within the 7 day period. If he wishes to argue that there may be other findings or directions that permitted him to do so then he should take that up with ArbCom in the Clarifications section - until then he was found to be in violation and thus blocked. LessHeard vanU (talk) 21:35, 26 May 2009 (UTC)

Will Beback has posted the following request for block review on his talk page, copied below:
"I believe that Sandstein has miscounted the reverts. I first added text in following a discussion on the talk page. That was not a revert. Several days later another editor, Pergamino, made significant changes to the text without discussion. I reverted the changes. That was the only revert. The RFAR editing restriction prohibits more than one revert per week. No user may revert any given changes to a subject article more than once within a seven day period... Since I only reverted once I did not violate the prohibition. Further, I acted in good faith to avoid violating the prohibition, and if I did violate it then I did so unintentionally and with a misunderstanding of how the revert(s) are counted. I received no warning that I'd violated the prohibition, and I would have self-reverted if I had been warned. One revert per week is an unusual standard and I think that either Sandastein or I is not calculating it correctly. Will Beback " by Milo 00:24, 27 May 2009 (UTC)]

That looks like legitimate grounds for lifting the block if it's true. Durova 00:49, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

• I was having a look at that first edit, and I couldn't find any consensus to add it on the talk page, there was some discussion and then willbeback added it.

Added by cirt,

Reports obtained by Ted Patrick and several scholars after deprogramming of several of Rawat's former worshippers refer to the experience of Rawat's "meditation" techniques as self-hypnosis, and as diminishing the ability to think both during the practice and for an extended period of time after cessation. name=Patrick>Patrick, Ted with Tom Dulack, Let Our Children Go!: By the man who rescues brainwashed American youth from sinister 'religious' cults pp. 214-215 (1976) E.P. Dutton & Company, ISBN 0-525-14450-1 name=Conway>Conway, Flo and Siegelman, Jim, "Snapping: America's Epidemic of Sudden Personality Change Second Edition, Second printing: pp 159 f (2005) Stillpoint Press, ISBN 0-38528928-6</

this was removed by Zanthorp

then this was added by willbeback, it's basically a reinsertion of the same material with a small rewrite.

Former premie (follower of Rawat) Marcia Carroll was deprogrammedfrom Rawat's cult in 1973 by Ted Patrick. Carroll describes each of the four techniques in detail within the context of her experience. She concludes: "the more meditation you do, the less able you are to reason. It becomes painful to think at all. So whatever they tell you, you do.... With more and more meditation, you experience a sort of ... self-hypnosis. It keeps you there." name=Patrick>Patrick, Ted with Tom Dulack, Let Our Children Go!: By the man who rescues brainwashed American youth from sinister 'religious' cults pp. 214-215 (1976)E.P. Dutton & Company, ISBN 0-525-14450-1. (Off2riorob (talk) 02:07, 27 May 2009 (UTC))

Clause

I think Will is misreading which clause of Remedy 3.1 of the RFAR applies...

To quote the whole thing:

Revert limitations

3.1) The Prem Rawat article and all related articles are subject to an editing restriction for one year. No user may revert any given changes to a subject article more than once within a seven day period, except for undisputable vandalism and BLP violations. Furthermore, if a user makes any changes to a subject article, and those changes are reverted, they may not repeat the change again within a seven day period.

Passed 11 to 1 to 1, 02:02, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

I believe that the issue is the last sentence ( "Furthermore, if a user makes any changes to a subject article, and those changes are reverted, they may not repeat the change again within a seven day period." ). Will made a change, and it was reverted, he wasn't supposed to change it back until 8 days later (and did so in 5 days). I'm not sure I agree with this provision, but that's what they entered into the rule as it stands. Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 02:30, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

Agree. Because of this clause (and quite independently of this discussion) I reached the conclusion to deny the unblock request. I'm not truly aware of the depth of disruption on this article, and this may have been a good-faith misunderstanding by Will about the restrictions, but I felt that unblocking him would be somewhat disrespectful of the RFAR ruling, and also give an appearance of unfairness unless Pergamino is also unblocked. Mangojuice 02:37, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

Good point. Since this is a newly closed case and neither editor has been warned, perhaps unblocking both and extending a warning would be appropriate? It's an unusual clause in the case, and the wording isn't easy to parse. Had me confused too until I read it three times. Durova 04:54, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

Yes, it is the second element of the restriction that Will Beback violated in this case. I would normally be reluctant to block a user for the violation of that unusual a remedy without a prior warning, but since he was a party to the RfAr and indeed was specifically admonished at Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Prem Rawat 2#Users admonished for his conduct in articles related to Prem Rawat, I think he must be deemed adequately warned in this case.  Sandstein  05:43, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

I have declined the unblock request by Will Beback on the grounds that it appeared he did violate the letter and spirit of the ArbCom decision as I have read it; however I also support Durova's proposed solution. Will Beback's comments since my decline have indicated that he made a good-faith mistake based on his reading of the sanctions, and he has clearly indicated that he will tread lighter in the future. Durova generally keeps a very clear head in tough times, and I trust her judgement on these issues. I think a provisional unblock, with perhaps a request to ArbCom for clarification and the understanding that these blocks serve as clear warnings to tread lightly in the affected articles. --Jayron32.talk.contribs 05:48, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

I would be uneasy in commencing the practice of allowing one mistake over interpretation of ArbCom decisions; I saw immediately how Will Beback had violated the word of the restriction as provided at AE. As well as being the responsibility of the restricted party to understand and abide by the sanctions imposed at ArbCom, it is likely to severely discourage the few admins that work the AE page if properly arrived at blocks, topic bans are then lifted because it was the first time. The ArbCom case should have provided sufficient warning and notice that sanctions for violations would be enforced - otherwise would be to diminish this avenue of final resolution also. If Will Beback and the other editor (who I note is not being discussed) are to receive a warning, let it be in the form of this 24 hour block. LessHeard vanU (talk) 17:05, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

If an editor (Rumiton) can be banned for a year over Prem Rawat issues without a warning and with only one previous block, any diminishing of WillBeback or Pergamino's tiny 24 hour block would seem like gross hypocrisy. Mind you, ArbCom's decision to enshrine "up to one week in the event of repeated violations and After 5 blocks, the maximum block shall increase to one year" sends a clear message that bad editing at PR articles are now to be considered trivial. Sandstein, as usual, is right, WillBeback has had adequate warning.Momento (talk) 06:17, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

• Entirely reasonable. Stifle (talk) 10:13, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

We could go either way with this: Pergamino was not named at the case. But consensus leans in the other direction and is internally consistent, so deferring. Durova 17:10, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

It's unfortunate that Sandstein didn't specify which part of the remedy he thought we'd violated, as this might have been cleared up sooner. However to prevent future problems I've asked the arbCom to clarify the remedy so that there won't be any more misunderstandings, whether on the part of editors or enforcers.   Will Beback  talk  23:33, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

User:Mytestid1980 is damaging an article

See and all contribs. He is putting hoaxes on 2008 attacks on North Indians in Maharashtra even when we warned him. All warnings are gone from his talk. Some more bad eits also ocurred. See history

i hope its the right place (WP:AIV asks for recent disruption and I don't smell a 3RR violation.) Hometech (talk) 18:09, 26 May 2009 (UTC)

Looking at Mytestid's edits, this is a political/ethnic issue, and that user is clearly pushing an agenda. This is best served at Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/Geopolitical ethnic and religious conflicts, which is set up specifically for this type of situation. Be sure to read the intro at the top of that page and provide diffs so you receive the proper attention. Mytestid should probably be blocked if s/he makes one more such edit (after being warned, of course). --64.85.214.21 (talk) 14:22, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

Sam Blacketer resignation article at The Register

I just saw that an article was published today on The Register about Sam Blacketer, and wanted to give you guys a heads-up. TotientDragooned (talk) 18:11, 26 May 2009 (UTC)

Correct link ╟─TreasuryTag►hemicycle─╢ 18:12, 26 May 2009 (UTC)

It's a rather good article, actually, thanks for sharing. I particularly like the quote in the final paragraph! ╟─TreasuryTag►hemicycle─╢ 18:14, 26 May 2009 (UTC)

Heh! That might explain this (reverted) edit, which had me scratching my head. Cheers, This flag once was red_deeds 18:19, 26 May 2009 (UTC)

Its rather a bummer. Sam is a pretty good editor, but the aforementioned edit was clearly pov. - Arcayne () 03:32, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

I think you are misreading the situation. All that Sam Blacketer did was revert vandalism in Cameron's article: New Canadian (talk · contribs) inserts a picture designed to mock Cameron: . It is a picture that shows Cameron, making a stupid face, in front of something in the background that makes him look as though he has a halo. Sam Blacketer then reverted that edit, restoring the normal picture, showing Cameron smiling in his suit: , with the edit summary "(Undid revision 290191421 by New Canadian (talk): Revert choice of picture to one not carrying saintly overtones.)" His crime was to have a sense of humour. Two days later, Sam Blacketer reverted another vandal: . Metz makes it sound as though Sam Blacketer had inserted a less flattering picture of Cameron, to score a popularity point against Cameron. The exact opposite is the truth. Thus I conclude Cade Metz is a journalist whose writings should not be given much credence, and that is putting it politely. ;) JN466 11:31, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

No, I get that, Jayen466 - I do - but there is a reason we avoid those articles with which we have conflict of interest issues. It's incredibly poor judgment. It isn't like editing Hitler and Ghandi's page to keep junk nd out (when you hate one and love the other); the editor had a real connection to the subject. Hmm, we should have a policy or guideline about this... - Arcayne () 12:54, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

Speaking as a Brit, Sam Blacketer's handling of the image seemed impartial, balanced and fair-minded. No need for a witch hunt here. Mathsci (talk) 22:01, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

I agree that the edit was ok, but a politician should know better (as Brit and a Reg reader). "Sam" did ok, and the big mistake he made was editing under his real name. I also think that Cade Metz is an ok guy, having spoken to him in real life, and that their coverage of wikipedia is rather tongue-in-cheek and funny (it's quite a british thing, though I don't think he's a brit). He's written some good pieces, and this is just a gossipy piece which happens to be correct. Also, WP:BLP applies to comments about Sam and Reg writers, I'd have thought, so lets keep it nice (not directed at MathSci - he's a nice guy too). Verbal chat 22:14, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

I have to say I am rather surprised at all this furore. Among those of us who edit UK politics pages, its well known that Sam Blacketer was David Boothryd. As someone from a different party to David I can say his conduct has been excellent and impartial in all his dealings with both users and articles throughout his editing here. Its a real shame that he has felt that he needed to step down from ArbCom over this. Perhaps this ill informed IT journalist thought he had a scoop, not realising that he was telling the online political community what we knew anyway. I just hope that David carries on contributing to Misplaced Pages as both his in-depth historical knowledge and his eye for detail have raised the quality of our politics articles. - Galloglass 22:46, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

Ill informed? He seems to have been correct, and Sam resigned because of it. I hope he keeps editing too, and I hope attacks on living, identifiable, people stop. I didn't know sam had other accounts. I suggest this section is closed. Verbal chat 07:57, 28 May 2009 (UTC)

David Boothroyd article

Someone may want to take a closer look at this article and the drama quickly emerging behind this. I think this is going to get ugly. MuZemike 08:04, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

That is, it has been rapidly recreated, and another user has a copy of the article on his userpage, which is now up for MFD. MuZemike 08:06, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

Never mind. Deleted again and salted. MuZemike 08:07, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

See WP:DRV. No need for drama. Jehochman 08:42, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

The article is now posted on the user page of TAway (talk · contribs). Mathsci (talk) 08:45, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

I've resolved that. Jehochman 09:02, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

Vandalism of File:WPAbortion-logo.svg

I'm sorry, I don't know how to fix this, but I think it needs urgent attention - the Abortion "logo" that appears on all abortion related topics has been changed to read "Murder" by CGrapes429 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log). Thanks, Dawn Bard (talk) 20:36, 26 May 2009 (UTC)

Hmm... I tried to fix it, but something seems to be working wrong. Any suggestions? –Drilnoth (T • C • L) 20:42, 26 May 2009 (UTC) Seems to be fixed. –Drilnoth (T • C • L) 20:43, 26 May 2009 (UTC)

Drilnoth uploaded a new version of it. What is weird for me is that the Murder still appears in the image at the top of the image page, but the update to read "Abortion" at the bottom by Drilnoth looks ok, and I clicked on the Abortion article to see that the sidebar does indeed say Abortion. I figure it's a thing with my computer. I refreshed the page 4 times but it still read as Murder...anyway, I fully protected the image page for 3 days. --Moni3 (talk) 20:44, 26 May 2009 (UTC)

Huh. I protected it indef, and refreshed until the image cache caught up with Drilnoth's fix. In any case, one or more of us took care of it. :-)--SarekOfVulcan (talk) 20:45, 26 May 2009 (UTC)

Thanks, y'all. I warned the user who made the change; I hope that was appropriate. Dawn Bard (talk) 20:50, 26 May 2009 (UTC)

Most probably. :-) I extended the protection to indef again, and deleted all the "Murder" versions so that someone couldn't just revert to an earlier version.--SarekOfVulcan (talk) 20:51, 26 May 2009 (UTC)

Only one edit since January, and it's a vandalism? Sounds like a compromised account. If it were me deciding, I would indef it and see if the user even notices. Baseball Bugs carrots 21:07, 26 May 2009 (UTC)

Bugs, treating these folk with your fluffy kindness and indolent patience is surely going to backfire on you one of these days. Sometimes love and maple syrup isn't enough! LessHeard vanU (talk) 21:39, 26 May 2009 (UTC)

And that's why I'm not the one deciding, don'cha know. But as merely a lowly peon; just a simple farmer; one of the people of the land; part of the common clay of the new west; I can always make recommendations. 0:) Baseball Bugs carrots 23:09, 26 May 2009 (UTC)

Just be glad I didn't refer to that drive-by vandalism as the CGrapes429 of Wrath. Oops, too late. Baseball Bugs carrots 23:45, 26 May 2009 (UTC)

Love and maple syrup are useless without pancakes and sex. -FisherQueen (talk · contribs) 23:20, 26 May 2009 (UTC)

Mmmmmm maple syrup and sex... damn I wish I was young again! --WebHamster 23:40, 26 May 2009 (UTC)

I don't recommend mixing lovin' and syrup. Things can get stuck together, and then you'll be subjected to the ridicule of the Rescue Squad. Or so I've heard. 0:) Baseball Bugs carrots 23:41, 26 May 2009 (UTC)

I think you misheard, that is super glue and sex. Not that I have first hand knowledge.... The Seeker 4 Talk 00:07, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

Actually, what they need is some kind of syrup with the consistency of K-Y. That would be ideal for keeping those pancakes lubricated. Baseball Bugs carrots 00:26, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

Was that from that summer at band camp? Oh... MuZemike 03:54, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

Good grief I go to Disney World for a week and THIS happens in AN/I? Wildthing61476 (talk) 12:55, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

Standards keep heading down the ladder as we try to wring the last ounce of humor. By now we must be down to the last wrung. Baseball Bugs carrots 13:14, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

So the "logo" for abortion is the word "Abortion" with a drop shadow? I guess it's better than a picture of a coat hanger, but really, why do we have this image at all? rspεεr (talk) 04:06, 28 May 2009 (UTC)

If someone attaches a registered trade mark symbol to it, then we'll have some real cause to worry. Baseball Bugs carrots 08:20, 28 May 2009 (UTC)

I was surprised how many articles use it. It's being used for a project logo, so that stands to reason. A coat-hanger? How about an illustration of a 13-year-old being raped by her stepfather? Not neutral either? Then the word itself is probably the thing. Maybe a bit too fancy for its own good, though. Baseball Bugs carrots 08:27, 28 May 2009 (UTC)

Brianna Tatiana

Would this be a legal threat? --Malcolmxl5 (talk) 22:47, 26 May 2009 (UTC)

Yeah, I say so. Block away. MuZemike 22:51, 26 May 2009 (UTC)

OK, done. Article prodded two days ago in any case. --Malcolmxl5 (talk) 22:59, 26 May 2009 (UTC)

Sounds like "The Name Game":

Brianna Tatiana, bo-biana

Banana-fana fo-fiana

Fee-fi-mo-miana

Brianna Tatiana!

:) Baseball Bugs carrots 23:06, 26 May 2009 (UTC)

There some talk on the talk page about this not being about a real person. I was unable to find a single reliable source which is very strange given the article claims she was on MTV and has released an album. If this isn't an article about a fake person, it almost certainly fails to reach notability guidelines. The article should be deleted. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 23:07, 26 May 2009 (UTC)

Actually, as I was constructing that Name Game thing, it occurred to me that it would also work for Hannah Montana - which is maybe what inspired this apparent bit of fiction. Baseball Bugs carrots 23:10, 26 May 2009 (UTC)

• OK, sorted. User talk:Indie-lauper has rescinded the legal threat (it wasn't a serious one apparently but nonetheless) and I have unblocked him. I checked the article out a couple of days ago when it came up on the BLP noticeboard and decided to prod it as I couldn't find reliable sources for it but there seems to be a wider problem than Misplaced Pages here, of someone's name and photo being taken and used elsewhere to create a fake identity. --Malcolmxl5 (talk) 23:33, 26 May 2009 (UTC)

I think I've found the problem. There was a press release on PR Newswire regarding Brianna Tatiana being signed by Global Village Records.. According to an 2006 SEC litigation release , "Global Village Records" was part of a Ponzi scheme and had no actual business activities. "According to the complaint, even after the original defendants were enjoined from continuing to violate the federal securities laws, they continued their fraud by soliciting additional money into this scam. To circumvent the asset freeze, certain defendants created a new company, Global Village Records, and then used the bank accounts of companies owned by Daniel J. Merriman to forward money from investors." On April 15, 2009, a court ruled against the people behind the scam, with a $51 million final judgement. A criminal prosecution is pending. One can see why someone might not wish to be in Misplaced Pages associated with Global Village Records. --John Nagle (talk) 03:58, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

Crosscheck. Yes, it's the same "Global Village Records". The press release cited above was from a Dr. Henry Jones. The DOJ press release on the criminal case says "A third defendant involved in the plot, Henry Jones, 53, a record company executive, formerly of Marina Del Rey, is expected to be sentenced in early 2009. Jones has been incarcerated since being extradited from Hong Kong last December." Brianna Tatiana is not mentioned in any of the Government press releases on the scam. --John Nagle (talk) 05:49, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

Dr. Henry Jones, lol. Iggy pop goes the weasel (talk) 06:40, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

Great. Times must be tough in the archeaology business. One link says, "Brianna has performed for thousands of fans at sporting events." Is there actually a Brianna? I was thinking I could make this claim myself, for every time I sing the national anthem at a ballpark. I guess I draw attention, because everyone's singing off-key except me. Baseball Bugs carrots 08:39, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

• I'll mark this resolved now as the problematic article has been deleted. --Malcolmxl5 (talk) 18:13, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

I am being hounded

An IP has been following around Misplaced Pages for about a month now and shows no sign of stopping. QuackGuru (talk) 03:05, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

Blocked a month for disruptive editing based on a previous block that appears to not have been effective. Nakon 03:10, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

If I may add a note here, there is another user, SqueakBox (talk · contribs), who may be worth investigating as well. Looking at his contrib history shows a similar pattern to the now-blocked IP's of reverting QuackGuru's edits. In a 7-minute spree on 26 May, 2009, he reverted QG 15 times, all of which were soon reverted by admin, Jennavecia. Tarc (talk) 16:36, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

Is it possible that this user did not know there was a consensus against removing co-founder? Or possibly thought that guackguru was trying to hide vandalism by implying he was correcting a typo, even though anyone familiar with the situation understood the sarcasm there? A cursory search would suggest the IP user was not told about the consensus, so the IP users unblock request might actually be valid. This still does not really explain why the IP user is editing in that area, possibly following guackguru. David D. (Talk) 05:52, 28 May 2009 (UTC)

Odd possible legal threat?

What do you all make of this removed edit? Seen on RFPP here. rootology/equality 03:13, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

Seems like they're violating the "court order" as well. Nakon 03:23, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

Lol. Does anyone actually understand what Misplaced Pages is outside of Misplaced Pages? - Arcayne () 03:25, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

Not really. That's why they all think it's unreliable. My wife thought it was a blog until I sat her down and showed her everything that goes on behind the scenes. Now she just thinks it's "White and Nerdy"Drew Smith What I've done 05:57, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

No, that's why they think it's reliable, which it isn't. --NE2 07:32, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

Resolved. indefinitely blocked by User:William M. Connolley -- Ricky81682 (talk) 09:38, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

Resolved – Scottydog77 indefinitely blocked by User:SarekOfVulcan and sockpuppet report filed.

Resolved – Under observation/warnings issued.

Resolved – No administrator intervention necessary. –Juliancolton |  22:16, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

Resolved – pages smoked, editors could be socking but no real disruptive sock editing to block for that reason alone. Watching. Mfield (Oi!) 04:33, 28 May 2009 (UTC)

Resolved – sorted Rodhullandemu 00:29, 28 May 2009 (UTC)

Resolved – Blocked indefinitely as spam-only accounts. rspεεr (talk) 04:13, 28 May 2009 (UTC)

Resolved – Seems clean as a whistle now--Valley2city 04:31, 28 May 2009 (UTC)

Resolved. Indef blocked by Jéské Couriano. C.U.T.K.D 09:08, 28 May 2009 (UTC)

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